your mind in this country and having an honest opinion because everybody is locked in to one side or the other. >> yeah. >> wow, it's impressive. >> i was typing more during the night. ..

but anyway, when i come back bring it in again. >> show them this description. you'll get a kick out of it. >> thank you very much. >> unsaturated sound. >> no, that's tomorrow recorded sound. >> i want my wife to get around here and get a picture. i wanted to go on facebook. i'm working on facebook. all right. >> all right.

>> i'll have to get it signed. the big thing is having pictures on your face the. now i can tell everyone i have your book. >> it's amazing. >> you are ahead of your time. >> when was the civil rights? the late 80s classics >> yeah, justice marshall biography was the late 90s. there's a lot of non-guns about about -- [inaudible] >> hey, look. it's you. it means a lot that you showed a

good c-span, this is the real deal. >> he's the real deal. >> aod batters the book for his daughters. >> lake caroline. can you put that in? >> thank you for joining us. not plowshare.

>> coming up next, booktv presents "after words," an hour-long program buried by guest hosts to interview authors. this week, jay bahadur and his first vote, "the pirates of somalia." in it, bahadur exposes hayseed hijackers, some of whom made news with a cargo ship in 2009 and later the murderer for retirees who are sailing around the world. mr. bahadur exposes how it made its way and what he believes can be done to stop them. he talks with clifford may, president of the foundation for defense of democracy. >> host: jay, let me start with you. if i understand correctly, you're 27 years old, from

toronto, you are doing marketing research and you decided i want to get into journalism. we decided to do is go to somalia, research pirates and write a book about it. >> guest: yeah, used to tell people would ask for four years old i wanted to be a reporter and then i forgot about it for a number of years. and when i was at the university i came around to that way of thinking. every journalist i spoke to said if elected get ahead in today's busy quite struggling journalism market, and especially if you want a job of doing international journalism thinking around the world, you should just go out. my freelance. that was my intention. i was originally going to go to molly van, another independent region to cover elections that were supposed to have been in march 2009. this elections never happen. and it turned out i found a much

better opportunity, one that had a better chance at getting the name mark dow. >> your interest is long-standing, goes back to college. >> i found it extremely fascinating because study and implement these places -- it is the closest you get to a person state of nature, we see how people actually react when faced with anarchy. as soon as you get into small the economy start learning a bit about it and realized that local favorites have cropped up everywhere and people don't like anarchy. so the semi-functioning regions pull together and form indigenous government that function to a greater extent. i ended up in one of these territories like i mentioned on really the eve of the first selection in four years and there's a complete turnover houri. there was a very interesting

time. smalley, the way with so many different dynamics, islamic dynamics, there's the official transitional federal government in the south, just a collection of ex-warlords awarded by the international community. it's really one of the most interesting countries in the world. >> first of all, teacher parents, girlfriend and that they say this is a totally crazy thing to do. you have no idea what it's going to be late to work in a place like that. to not do it. >> guest: actually know. a lot of my friends were toymaker from the talk me out of it. they were trying to get to meet her. she never did. i don't know why. my parents as were very supportive. they were sort of taciturn about it. they didn't overly encourage me, but they never said anything to dissuade me or even threatened to pull the purse strings from under me because i need you to

borrow money from them. >> host: i assume you try to get somebody to give you an assignment to go there so you would know you have somebody to write for and it got there. >> i actually didn't because i went originally with the intent of writing the book. this is actually the cool that i thought was completely realistic. it may sound arrogant or naïve, but i thought i would go there and get a book. in the meantime if that was a definite cow, my fallback plan if a recent freelance articles. the major agencies can't send their people's for a number of reasons in major newspapers for the same people to snowman. so i wasn't worried about finding someone to take my work, especially if i had really good access to private, which ended up having.

what i ended up doing for a book proposal come you write a sample chapter and ended up signing that in a condensed version shortly after i got back in march 2009 with a feature in the times. pretty cool. >> when i was serious, 27 i was so young foreign correspondent. and for the newspapers one of the places that immediately set me off to his northern ireland to cover the terrorism there. the difference to me between then and now was when i was northern ireland prefigured greatly everyone would want to talk to me and i would want to hire me. they need me to tell the stories. one of the thing changed is particularly among theories, they no longer quite need you to tell the story the same way. for example if they can cut after having put it on videotape

and posted on the internet, this kind of told the story the way, utilizing you. so is a more dangerous environment to your going to cover all like that. this obviously occurred to you. actually tell what they rather resourcefully. talk about what she decided to do in terms of security. >> my original plan was just to walk and get to somalia on my own, flying income asked for directions and then try and talk my way into the pirate crew. they were just crazy or not imitate pity on me. either that or they would be blown away by my bravery. you know, that wasn't the best plan. i had this vision. i look at aol, or google, where a lot of the disclosure happen.

eyl. have a feminine in the canal of the place and on the edge of town of the small building a stable pirate checked point. i just had to get to this check point, asked to see the pilots and become one of them. i'll sit around and shoot cod. and so this plan is a little harebrained. some jokester who google. what ended up doing is make contact whose name was mohammed for lay. >> you made it to the e-mail? feed nike e-mailed me back within five minutes. >> you're looking for journalists who relevant. >> guest: yeah, so i just sent him an e-mail, got a response inside than it and he called me the next day as early as he thought i might be a peer to call to 7:00 a.m. i wasn't up, but he spoke to

him. it was clear he was very eager. >> host: why do you think he was eager? >> guest: well, his father ended up getting elected president of the region a week before it got there in january january 2009. i was one of 16 candidates in an indirect election. but he came to something like 75% of the vote. when i heard that, i filed it into the back of my mind and that this is probably not going to happen. but i ended up getting come in because of his father's position, i ended up getting great access not only to bureaucrats and politicians, but also his family was same subclavian has a lot of the pirate from eyl, all the figures he started fighting in the early 90s with the same subclavian.

so they were happy to tatsumi because i was a guest of basically the defect cohabit their claim. >> host: what is that he wanted to come? duty of the message he hoped he would get out about the claim, about his father? was he doing real journalism? >> guest: is certainly a pro-government website. it's not by any means propaganda. it's very, very high quality for a product coming in somalia with great quality, definitely pro-government. yeah, his father, the president, his mission was to rehabilitate the image on the international stage and had been rented to come by the previous administration, which controlled the government from 2005 to 2009. in 2008 the government had been so ineffectual they ran out of money to pay security forces, which is what led to the states

the entire time. so he wanted the book to be i guess sort of a travelogue about one and. it didn't turn out that way because i had to be very conscious of his writing of the fact is under the wing of the government and everything was being filtered through that lens. everyone who spoke to me as soon rightly or wrongly to what they were telling me was going to get back to the president. from the book i have to be very clear and very careful to provide a balanced view. some of the reviews -- what has been criticized is that it's too balanced. i don't know if it's a bad thing, but something is conscious of and writing it. >> in this phone call and subsequent phone calls, comb-over, we'll have someone you when you get here. we'll take care of you and provide security and you can do

some reporting. >> guest: well, i pitched in with the idea of the book. we just thought it verity happened essentially in the book. in fact, i was chagrined later on when i told them of the big news, she acted like it was like yeah, don't we have the book? i thought that through doing all the lawn. i'd keep security guards with me all the time. poster we should tell a little got there because it's not quite like going to the airport in taking a plane. it's a bit of a difficult destination. >> guest: yeah, the most common ways to go to dubai and go to terminal two, which i called up a airline hub of dubai international because it flies to north korea, pyongyang in somalia that all go to djibouti.

and once they get to djibouti come you get on an 1870s soviet prop plane quite visibly adjuncts and ukrainians. they're very cantankerous. the engine part hasmonean fatcats on the other hand. so you know, i compare it to somalia and the soviet union. one said those solutions collapsed. i compared these ukrainians in the book to people who have been forgotten about and condemned for this neglected roof forever. but anyway, that's it. >> host: cemented that -- the last time you were were on the sideline of foreigners, not a lot of people to look like you. guess code none. it was shocking because i went over there expecting to meet a lot of journalists. this is right after the series

started and captured, the oil tanker carrying 100 million crude oil designated the newspaper headlines. >> host: the first trip i made was for six weeks. during that time -- beginning at 2009 i thought during that entire time, one group of foreigners is an australian camera crew. so we were literally passing each other in the arab court. so it was shocking. i got there and said can i have this market cornered? >> host: celebrate me get there, happily paid to the tarmac in the security is provided for you. you have to ask him a place to stay provided for you. they are going to hopefully start putting you in contact with high rates that will hopefully tell you their story. >> guest: .

>> host: talk about your first interview with the pirate. >> guest: i asked where the piraeus? pirates are very -- it's very obvious at the time that they were. they were driving around in these toyotas served vehicles -- i caught the baby land cruiser. it's a land cruiser, proportion fall short. the new license plates had 18 for the commencing ditches. so you know, the cy young pitcher hitting around in a toyotas served with 18 unlicensed plate that was the pirate. 95% of the time it was a pirate. so we go to the people and start talking to them. he immediately laughed and said you can't do that. you'll immediately start getting much today may just attack you. you'll immediately start getting much today may just attack you. , everything in somalia comes

today may just attack you. , everything in somalia comes down to client. he ended up setting up a meeting with a man named boyette becomes the central character in my book. >> host: that's not his real name? >> guest: i never found out what he meant, that every somali, every single one goes by a nickname because there are these overlapped. a lot of mohammed and other shooters. the names are so common that everyone goes by nicknames. so it is taken schmieg way out in an abandoned car in 15 minutes of that capital city and immediately i thought i was being ambushed with something. he said are required to meet him 15 minutes outside the city in an abandoned field? my partner told me -- >> host: this is your somali partner? >> guest: yeah, he explained he was worried about tuberculosis he feared. i don't think he had it, but boy he was extremely emaciated, so

mohammed was afraid and was paranoid about tuberculosis everywhere. so i met you at this farm at first he wishes completely attainable. first of all, he was gigantic, at the time 65, 67 or 68, extremely in and essentially wouldn't even look at me. he didn't look at me when he shook my hand. he was saying that davis on the server. he was quite disdainful. afterwards i realized that after we finished the interview, mohammed cannot be given give them $100 for his afternoon at a peer is that we gave trip money essentially. but i embedded with him and got to know more and more over the course of three months. >> host: working by the way of the translator.

there are plenty of people who did speak enough english to translate. >> guest: guess he spoke english. like most of the ask patty run run the country really -- >> host: people have gone abroad in combat? >> guest: yeah, the former -- the somalia community rent everything in the country. no local people speak english. >> host: that sophistication, foreign languages. i am after the president spent 20 years in australia. >> guest: so yeah, the president spoke six languages. at the very least silo comest amalia and diasporas speak english and are back and totally dominate the top ranks and ran the entire parent in the best business opportunities. everyone i spoke to him holding

position in government spoke english. but for the pirates, the university translated for mali. and actually there's a really strong tension between the two levels restated and suffered the brunt of the civil war and have been able to escape and have lives outside. it's interesting. there's a really sharp divide. >> host: one of the things he learned which i found fascinating is he doesn't see himself as the pirate. the pirates don't call themselves pirates necessarily. >> guest: they know the word, but it's slightly offensive, sort of like a slave racial slur may be. if you use a slave racial slur someone you are familiar with them might react the same way. >> host: they call it saviors of the coast guard and they have

a legitimate grievance that they are trying to address. in other words, they words, they have this executed publication. >> guest: i thought at this time that early even if the guy hadn't even step foot within sight of the fishing boat in his life, the first words out of his mouth were, we are doing this for fishing. >> host: their claim is the foreign fishing boats came into their waters, depleted waters, destroyed reefs, took away likelihood and said they were going to do some need to stop this because the international community does not come into their defense. >> guest: yeah, and that was a partial explanation true for very, very few men. they were actually fishermen. they had really suffered foreign

ships, often european, french and spanish are very common. the mostly korean, taiwanese, so i'm good and the ships that come in. but they were fishing close to shore, for rock lobster, which would he and his colleagues would fish for. they would come into conflict. i didn't just take everything as god's truth, but the third-party account that these foreign fishers arm themselves with anti-aircraft gun, destroyed local dealer. i heard one story from the townspeople of eyl worked to divers have been swept up by a troll or not to drown. they also ended up destroying local cops through drug fishing.

one of the things they found so compelling and their story runs through my book is because to humanize them make them -- make them sympathetic characters. and i think it's partly the advantage i have with offering an inside look into their lives and portray more than just the third cc on the news. >> host: so you are compared these agreements that perhaps i'll just go on for a sec, but would have been disturbing to many teen 90s they attacked at the foreign fishing boats. as they develop skills, they started going after commercial vessels as well and eventually the world food program in ships bringing few days and eventually

almost anything that came into their path is fair game, including obviously not that long ago a young with two american couples who retired as by those to fire fund schools than it did a good, murdered i guess you'd say if negotiations were underway. so they started by defending territory and saying anything is fair game to us. is it reasonable to say? >> guest: yeah, it's complex and trying to think of a way to summarize this very quickly. but they started in the early 90s attacking illegal fishing ships. that being said, the current business not all, which is essentially kidnapping that feed. you can't capture showed up and you bring them to the local previous and you demand a ransom. it's not conceptually different than taliban and afghanistan

capturing someone or taking people into the jungle in holding them hostage. you know, the common ground as they have somewhere safe and inaccessible or they can hold it supply themselves while negotiations are carried out. that business model was not invented by fishermen. it was invented by a man whose name was funny, a nickname mini bigmouth. he was a former ex-pat who lived in central somalia returned to the country and just figured out that powerpoint to pay these rants things. you figured out the motto. this is a key development where they are refused maybe five meters of fishing. when he actually started using literature shipping does enter the attacks with hundreds of

miles into the ocean. once he figured that out and as he mentioned he started attacking world food program ships, which is very much against the pirate pr mantra. they were literally stealing food from the people. once that bottle was invented, it just spread up and down the coast. they then send well, foreign fishing attack because they shoot back at us and were already very experienced important operations and we know the cosine. they started traveling up and down the coast, training future periods. so it's a very incestuous history. i caught in your bread history where they develop. but to say that it wouldn't have happened had there been no illegal fishing is completely

off base. no fishing ships that perched remotely close to what essentially happened. someone needed to figure it out in semitism. >> host: this is the context. you have the redundant somalia. it became a collapsed state, though i think you make an interesting and important description. the collapse state is not the same as a failed state. they collapse state means what happened here, which is viewed as as you describe it enclaves, sub enclaves, each controlled essentially by a specific clan in that territory and their developing government cannot enclaves.

but that gave rise to at least the ability for these pirates to begin to organize. and actually make a good point that is easier for them to organize but there was less chaos because they wouldn't get caught in the crossfire. >> guest: right, that play it exploded the epicenter of the whole piracy crisis. in the south, there has been piracy between the south, but as you alluded to, there's tons of competing interest in the south. dishonest, warlords, transitional governments. these are just businessmen, operated in a business environment. it is no barrier century high turnover of great mobility of capital. if the free market enterprise and these businesses need to operate an environment of

security. in the land provided that perfectly because this is that there is a government there and it does function, does employ security forces, but they are combined to love one wrote to the center of the region. there's no roots in the coastal area. no way to deploy troops in any quick or affect the manner. when i went out there it took seven hours to pass 200 kilometers. and so they were essentially adjourned i from the central government. but like i said, there wasn't competing interest who would rip them off. if you're operating in an area where warlord -- word for word it's raining or you have islamic militants, they will demand the cut, just i cannot wait. and in fact, i mentioned to point me in central somalia

coming up with a business model that 2005. when the islamic courts union, the homegrown islamist movement in the south took over the country in 2006, they took over the area and just went north to portland. so be located in 2006 and concentrated in al. as i mentioned in early 2008, the government from barely functioning to not function at all and ran out of money. there were tons of men with guns and not much you provided who provided great material. >> host: do you have any sense -- were you able to reported on whether some tiny thing is coming out at the country? >> guest: i think that's a

good question. to answer it simply, what you have inside cms provided by journalists repeated side of about 30 key financiers. the set command that provide the money for admission, which might range from 20 to $50,000. not that much money. there is invariably local business men who move in and out of the country. just like somali business then. he spent six months in the attack attack the homeland, had business connections outside and have the money to finance it. this has been played in the media as international crime syndicate. i've heard that a chris suggestions that american businesses are financing it for american businessmen to supply $50,000 permission, which not only are there plenty of that kind of money at somalia, if some apache may seem to suggest

that some always could be doing it themselves. they need american corporate backing to get this done. the fact is there's not that much money imposed. the local businessmen i think had the face of transnational privacy claims and then came the media have seen no direct evidence that they are non-somali foreigners finance thing. there's not one shred of evidence. >> host: were going to take a quick break. among the things i want to discuss, jay, the role played like folks like al shabab and of course with solutions they may or may not be. so we'll be back right after this.

>> host: we are back with the new author of "the pirates of somalia: inside their hidden world," a fascinating book i had the pleasure of reading this weekend. jay, i wouldn't call them sophisticated, but they're well organized in the sense that they had had to ship programs. you have the elite private very attacking and seized the vessel. you have the holders to stay with an. they even have their own coat. the mother ship and then you had a very scant, negotiators, translators, accountants. it is patent to be a fairly organized enterprise. >> host: that's a very good way to put it, not sophisticated but organize. their there structures that have developed to efficiently on land

provided for the crew to handle negotiations are often freelancers. they hired themselves out. one thing i was specifically studying called the victoria and they go into detail in the book, had come on board two days after his latest assignment. so these negotiators during demand. they have logistics officers who brought the food, organize =tranfour, who brought the drugs. that was the toughest thing. this is all done in credit. when the ship was awaiting the grandson, the backer might not have enough money to buy -- to pay for supplies up front because the supplies purchased a couple months and i printed

$200,000, mainly because it's extremely extensive about $20 a kilogram, which is what an addict and a one day. so you had accountants who kept track of the gang's expenses. they would find many seeking members who come and say you're an attacking member of the crew who had just come back from a successful hunt. you cannot short and you just want to go and start partying, you want to buy a car. you want to get a new woman and they don't have the money, said the accountant basically takes care of that for them. you think they're backer. >> guest: he's the underwriter. anyone who wants -- any pirate who wants to buy a car, that guy will come to the accountant and accountable say okay, i got it and he'll be the backer. so they won't deal directly with pirates themselves.

they end up paying double because they charge hefty interest. even though most ransoms are paid him it's a risky proposition . so you get a ransom that iou worth about 50 cents on the dollar. so they essentially have to pay 100% interest on all their purchases. so they go wants assurance tires spinning immediately. so that's one way of. another ways they adapt very well to at the international navies that turn up in. once the international navies came into the gulf of aden and created a transit corridor and started escorting ships, they immediately shifted more privately motherships and whenever a thousand miles into into the indian ocean. another tack tick that has been tried its called face point on a ship, with the ship was boarded, the cruiser in the room where

they're provided with food and water and wait for rescue. when paris started learning about this, there's report across the shared. they very well first and monitor the internet. even if people on the outside to tell them that have been, other smaller setting up rod to make informed them of trends going on. >> host: we should probably say a word about a remarkable phenomenon because if it plant, not dissimilar from marijuana, and its stimulant court intoxicant and it's very popular not just in somalia, but they raise the area around the horn of africa. basically any time if not most of a lot of people in somalia are essentially addicted to it. they chew it and issue it for hours and hours on end and a lot of it, but. >> guest: yeah, it blew my

mind. it's not even crowded tamale. ii think the candidates are even more and take it. somalis would never do that. they would never bring a wife and child to chew cud with them. somalia, the poorest countries on earth, the foreign exchange lamport cut from kenya in the field you, watch have climates much more suited. these are one of the reasons they stamp out card in the 1970s and 80s, not because he was turned about the health or well-being of the people, but so much of the money was flowing out of the country into antagonistic government that they had the countries that somalia was at times that were raised. so he saw this as sunday his enemies and rightfully so.

see out break of the civil war has exploded, this is exclusively what pirates spend the money on. >> host: you didn't find how i can see the appeal and why people spend their lives hijacking shed since coming back to chew, and their friends. >> guest: it has to be chewed fresh. the time it gets to somalia at 6:00 a.m. every day, the capital about noon, it's more like station miking, screening and from the soldiers will essentially a themselves to get the merchants through in the whole city comes alive. children following the public transport and steal the thought that that. i even thought a goat. as soon as they hear the haunting, they ran after them and try and get their own

picking up the back of the shipment. so yeah, i tried a couple times. i found was a great interview he made. i wouldn't compare it to marijuana, but maybe coca leaves because each you and causes mild euphoria. so i tasted it six or seven times. it's filthy because by this time it gets fair, it's a wilted in very better and so bitter that they have teach you sugary tea in order to counteract the taste. so yeah, it was absolutely the mainland hop and the somalia could afford it was choosing and playing site. >> host: that's part of the other thing. they make this money to be described as an organized enterprise and taking hostages and getting rid them of the

millions of dollars. then they kind of put their money on cars, women, cod, and the vehicle by a house, but they're not putting the money to 401(k)s or finance team. >> guest: no, nor is the money going -- it's recycled immediately back into the international market. it's almost at the rates can be paid intensive cotton lane cruise because that's it's ultimately with a instead of going to. you can avoid the transaction be blown away. but yeah, it blew my mind. this money is not going to help the local communities. local people hate them because not only did they not fund local economy, put money into local comments, but they drive up local prices, for food, water and seeing if theory and choose

god and so on. so it's insane how they put their money. people who talk about somali parents see talk about pirate and a going to finance government buildings in have not met pirates because most have no concept of what money is even, nor with a few putting money into paying us having and still your money. they would never trust a banker in a million years. the view money as the median -- they view it as something that would give me a land crusader. poster ratification is not very much in their habit. >> guest: is more like we had into the ocean to get a land cruiser. there's an intermediate step where you get money where people talk a lot. but it's really a land cruiser. >> host: you actually went to romania to interview because

they're not just taking shapes. they are taking the cruise. some of those who have been captured have been killed, although my impression from you is they don't like to kill anybody because they want to make it clear who paid a ransom to get people back allies. have seen some discussion of whether that increasing. my impression from you is that they don't necessarily torture for pleasure. on the other hand, they're not terribly solicitous to make sure hostages are well taken care of. >> to take whatever they can. that's accurate. >> i would say that's partially because it's not a fisherman anymore. a lot of these guys and militiamen who have histories

and am typing. from their personal backgrounds they have a lot more experience. and second, the ransom money is going up and causing increasing tensions on both sides because the international forces are a lot more willing to use violence themselves in order to avoid paying reasons that have topped $10 million. >> host: wasn't a record 9.5 last november? >> guest: another spend 13.5 paid earlier this year, several months ago. so that's an outlier. an average ransoms are probably not much more than 5 million or so. clearly money is going to. there's been increased numbers of rescue attempts, successful rescue attempts in the pirates know this and they have this funny or using torture as a

means to pressure shipping companies and show they're serious. the things that are in hostages and are you serious content at their and use them as human shields, mock executions, these kinds of things. that's not going on, even one in a half, two years ago. so i think it is a project of an inner class of pirate. the stakes are getting higher. simple as that. >> host: when people hear about -- you want to at least touch on this, they may focus on particularly al shabab, which is a terrorist jihad is screwed it is officially affiliated with al qaeda. i guess he cut to the chase, you are your there's no strategic alliances between the pirates and al shabab, though with a

baby is alliances of convenience. you also report, calling the pirates and you want to explain that this means, take care of the somali people you must watch out for your interests. and also interested of al shabab for the pain weapons. so it's not relationship. maybe you can bring some light to bear in that. >> guest: again, a very complex issue. in 2008 at 2009, a lot of accusations started coming down. frankly i think there's so many agendas or can the warrants. so on and a lot of people stood to benefit from somalia becoming a new hotspot for the war and tear if become. so i took take everything with a grain of salt. one of the earlier words had

shabbat training. in shooting in exchange for marine navigation lessons. so you have this comical image of turbine islamists instructing pirates and taking out video. and it is so comical because you don't need to be any thing of a marksman to become a pirate. your job is not to come to you know storm ship commando. if that is your weapon, web and used among pirates is very rare in your fighting over your post with unarmed crew members. so being trained as a marksman is not a qualification. p., every somali is how do use a gun to an adequate degree that you can become a pirate. and shabbat has not shown it so to have any sort of naval presence whatsoever. and so that was one claim that there is no actual evidence to

support that. it was something that really stretches to believe its narrative. but when another event that sparked speculation this win to feign it was captured, ukrainian ship carrying tanks for southern sudan was captured. it was immediately taken to an area that was controlled partially by shabbat. what happened was you had u.s. forces surrounded the chip at of paris on board the ship, and then you have al-shabaab waiting for the weapons. there's no way to pop a case outside of mogadishu. so there's no way any support facilities are capable of putting its hand. it is immediately this idea that shabaab was after the tank.

their soviet tanks from decades ago will not be much help in islamic group i.d. is not how modern wars five. but there is immediately this idea they are trying to get in the tanks. so i think those are two events that they stuck an analyst mind and reuse for whether piracy needed to be treated like terrorists on. other than that, there's really very little evidence to suggest that any real linkage between these two groups. as i mentioned briefly in the book that may be changing. it this actually pushcarts into areas they operate out of. you can start thinking it's logical. they can earn -- shabaab has

declared piracy to beat around far for banning religious and. that's really not an issue as someone put it into me supports the insurgent too. so you see in recent times that shabaab is an inherited error, one pirate observation. and what you decide is the pirates since the last. >> host: they didn't want to deal with? gastineau, why would that? just find another primary near god. there's no private infrastructure. these are pirate towns that they have some fancy supply chain to require the infrastructure of the towns or anything like that. the only evidence i've actually seen that shabaab getting paid off is now a list from

informants inside the country that has suggested a total of about 1 million paid in amounts varying between 5% and 10%. and this is compared. like i say in the book, done a systematic relationship at all. >> host: sometime we'll discuss responsible solution. i know in your to lug your powerful recommendations. before we get to those, by two recent things that will occur to the people when they hear about pirate and one is the talk the foreign fishermen and they have arms on your ship it can be pretty violent himself in typical target. all it takes his weapons on board the ship held by the clue. a lot of people will think if you're a tanker or a cargo ship, have some cars are crew members with weapons into the same thing

as the fishing vessels can do and just resist and fight back and they will be able to succeed and wouldn't that solve the problem? >> guest: note. that is one response i get very frequently. why can't we just torched the variance? the simple answers to that is you have to pay them twice as much. i mean come your current casa taco. you have to pay for them to be trained. and essentially, with the big worry is is provoke an incident the night lead to massive loss of life for you mentioned tankersley lasted a tanker's cargo is devastating as the combined total of the manson space today.

>> host: and other racy shoot at the pirates that use rpg's. casco suddenly the tanker is going down. >> host: you can't really blow a hole in the tanker with an rpg. recently would happen with the pirates pursued to believe an oil tanker. see you have to ensure that if you caused the fire and back. it's not inconceivable that the cargo could go on. it's if you have crewmembers that ends up losing their lives coming to limit pay more to their families or pni clothes, which i did production and in many clothes that shipowners used sell an insurer. he could end up paying as much or more to members of his crew's families. not to mention the terrible pr name.

say why are you putting your seafarers out here? are not soldiers. why are they fighting men with superior weapon? antonetti game -- postcode even though members are held hostage under terrible situation endangers? >> guest: there's been seven instances where private and forever what you mentioned earlier, which is really terrible accident. there is an escalation and that's why the internet dying. i spoke to marine insurers among them what they told mr. zakaria good chance if you forget even having the crew, presumably to be less trained in the poorest trained security for us, that may face a premium because they

don't know -- so many private security firms are popping up around the gulf of aden. it is not known what effect they will have on the ship security. the chance of escalating and it internat them up because it hasn't happened yet. it's difficult calculate the variables. but they are very wary about this. but one of them said to me as that could easily be. for training your crew to come back to training the crew would also havoc they have the same sort of repercussions that an insurer might look at this and say no, you're probably just 15 good chance that some pirate will blast a hole or tries to a wand up having to pay insurance damages on that and so with double your insurance. there's a lot of different reasons why. >> guest: used the other thing that seems reasonable but may not be. when the ship is taken and seized, as to be held at anchor

close to resupplying it. that means it's not hard to know where every ship that has been hijacked, with a private pavitt. once you know that come to you with think it would be some way to say okay, we located these three ships. going to take them back by throwing them away, sending commandos that night, getting on the ship. we're not going to let -- just because there's some holders on board with weapons, we know what that ship is. were taken aback. >> guest: well, they could do that at sea. i understand when it's under attack, if you're very close you can't do that. you can have plenty of time to plan. so you could plan out the mission. a couple of problems with that. there's been relatively few instances of actual commando

missions and most of the missions have occurred. i mentioned earlier the cruise barricade themselves. thus commando commissions are in the line of fire. one mission they stormed a friend shot but it didn't camp shared in india killing the cat came out of this family on board. one out of four officers died. you had another commando mission, which was carried out as a successful rescue of the ship, which is a map oil tank, some in a very high stakes involved. the captain got shot critically, that did not die. he was extremely lucky. he was shot through four times. then you have the american yacht, were all for a cat just died because two pirates pna and