ability to use forensics to penalize criminals and crime scenes.he st:s runs for about an hour. >> host: the national crime and punishment museum holds galleries looking at the criminal intent, profiles, serial killers, victims, crime prevention and more. victims, ce prevention and more. today we are inside the crime solving gallery, which you can learn all about forensic technology, cause of death, fingerprinting, a ballistics and many more items. we are joined by gregg mccrary, former fbi profiler. that is our topic this morning as we wrap up this week's series looking at the fbi. what is profiling? guest: good morning, and thanks for having me in.

the narrow definition of profiling is the description of the characteristics and traits of the unknown offender. the type of profiling pioneered by the fbi is the retrospective look at crime. in other words, crime has occurred. we are now examining the crime, the crime scene, all of the todence related to theat draw logical inferences about who might have committed this crime. host: the difference between prospective profiling in retrospective profiling. >> those are often confused. perspective profiling is trying to -- prospective a profiling is trying to identify common characteristics to determine who might commit a particular crime, who might be a terrorist or a drug courier. that is far more problematic, because you are going to get a

lot of false positives, people who "fit the profile" who really are not a terrorist or card career -- host: what type of agencies are doing that work? guest: certainly tsa, homeland security, and the bureau is looking at this to see what logically we can see about that. obviously, the idea is to prevent this before -- a lot of agencies are taking that on. host: retrospective profiling? guest: retrospective profiling is after the crime has occurred. that is the difference. rather that figuring out who was going to commit a crime, we look at who committed this crime or series of crimes. there is a methodology to this. it is a scientific approach, where we look at base rates, up homology, where we it study the victim, often very important, and too often given short shrift

in investigations. at the risk of oversimplifying, if you can think of it as what plus why = who? what happened, and the etymology is -- victimology is why gwe look at life styles and variables and put them on a risk to continuum from a low to high. we can understand why victims may have been elevated risks for being victims of violence, that focuses in on who. that basically is the idea that. host: at what point in the investigation does the profiler come in? guest: they can come in at any phase during the investigation. the first phase is to determine whether or not the crime has been committed. sometimes that is easy, a no-

brainer. other times is much more difficult. years ago you might recall twa flight 800 took off from kennedy and blow up. it took years of investigation by the bureau and agencies determined it was an accident, it wasn't a crime. sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not. we have someone that died, maybe under suspicious circumstances. is it natural causes, accident, suicide, homicide? we can get involved in the very early stages, and along the line, say, after the crime has been committed and we know is a crime, we're looking for who did it. sometimes it is to figure out what crime hit many times the crime you think you are investigating is not what occurred. susan smith in south carolina if you use ago reported her two kids had been carjacked, and you probably recall that she in fact killed her children. host: and so does the fbi

profiler stop at just the profile of the offender? do you come up with a strategy to go after the possible offender? guest: probably the most important things we do, the investigative strategy and/or interview interrogations strategy. profiling is the sexier aspect, the glitzy thing that gets everyone's attention to it if i go out and tell an investigator that we are looking for a white guy in his 30's, whatever, the proper response is well, that is interesting, but how do i catch the guy? that is the right question to ask. investigative strategy becomes very important in cases where they are trying to solve it. if you're up suspects interviewed in interrogation strategy, it also becomes important, because we're trying to eliminate suspects, identify suspects. we also get involved on the road with prosecution strategy and

sometimes expert witness testimony. host: the profiler then comes up with this strategy. how to you make a profile? we are in the crime solving part of the gallery. how does forensics help you? ballistics? toxicology? etc? forensics are foundational. we have to depend on that. we are allowed to come back with results, the autopsy, for example, if it is homicide. those things become quickly important. how is the victim -- if we are talking, hypothetically, a homicide, how is the victim killed? were they stabbed, shot? how many times? so forth. obviously, any other evidence -- fingerprint evidence, dna. certainly blood or semen or anything that is important to

us. that is foundational for us, to understand what happened. we can move forward from there. host: gregg mccrary is our guest, worked at the bureau from 1969 to 1995. still involved in forensic science and profiling. we are at the national museum of crime and punishment as we wrap up this week pause to look at the fbi. we showed all of you when we first started this the inside of the crimes of the gallery. i'm just curious, what is the forensic lab at quantico look like compared to where we are today? guest: certainly is not open to the public. [laughter] there are different things being done at the lab did the dna unit is its own unit. to avoid contamination and so forth, folks are not just going to stroll in and out of that. each section would have its own equipment, its own examiner's. they have their own scientific background, their own a degree

of expertise. it would be sorted out that way. given the case, they may tap into any one of those areas of expertise. host: how many agents are profilers? guest: just a few. profiling -- there are, like, three units in behaviorial analysis that are operational. those are the folks that do the work and offer operational support. altogether, with agents and support personnel, there is about 40 people involved in that totally. out of 14,000, that is not very many. when i first got involved in the mid-1980's, there were 12 of us at any one time in the operational wing. it has grown because demand has grown. host: that is our topic this morning, profiling and forensics. richard, independent in georgia. caller: yes, good morning.

on profiling, i am a little confused with homeland security. recently, they put a message out that is maybe a white male, evangelical, pro-life, may be a member of the nra, pro-second amendment. my idea of profiling is someone who belongs to a radical group or someone who goes around it to a university or school preaching revolution by violence, or someone who belongs to a radical organization, like the kkk. host: gregg mccrary. guest: thanks for that question, richard. what you're talking about is prospective profiling, someone who might commit a crime

afterwards. the plans he made are good, because -- the points he made a good, because it points out how we can get false positives. what department of homeland security is concerned about is the lone wolf offender, someone who is out there -- we just had that in norway. i was in norway last week, not related to that mass murder, but on another case there, but where the lone wolf killed 77 people based on some political beliefs and so forth. those are the things we are concerned about, as well as organized tourists like al qaeda and so forth. we are also concerned about the lone wolf, a little more difficult to identify because they don't talk to anybody, they don't communicate. they develop these ideas and carry them out themselves. host: nikk is a democrat -- nicky is a democrat and a convicted. -- democrat in connecticut. caller: hi, gregg.

does the fbi sometimes get their information wrong, with a wrongfully accuse someone of something? i will bring the case up, i don't know if you have anything to do with it or anything. [unintelligible] the that's not familiar? guest: does not sound familiar, but go ahead. caller: he was in chicago, and basically they said he had something to do with the brothers -- they did a movie called "casino" that had the same idea. his wife convicted him. he swore he did not do it, but basically, was doing 200 years, and john gotti followed with him later. there are not connected, i don't think -- host: are right -- caller: i would like to vindicate him, because they went after hand, and maybe he got --

maybe he was responsible for, like, tax evasion and those things that those guys do, but they got him for killing a mother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- killing a brother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- host: we will take your point about wrongful information. guest: certainly we can get wrongful information. i was not on the case so i do not want to comment on that . but the bureau of arrested an attorney in oregon, i believe, because ms. identification of a fingerprint. he was released. certainly, we are human beings and we try as best we can to get it right. human beings will make mistakes along the way. the important thing is to correct those errors. host: 1 upper father goes to testify, how much weight do you -- have when a profiler goes to testify, and how much weight you

have with your testimony? guest: profiling testimony per se is not allowed. it is too prejudicial. we do not get up and say, here is a profile of let serial killer, a child molester. that is not allowed, nor should it be allowed. we testify as to crime scene analysis. we educate the jury about things they might not be familiar with, staging and those sorts of things. host: to stay off -- is there a formula as to how they do the job, steps that they go through? guest: there is a methodology. we start with a victimology -- who or what is the victim, why is that target being targeted for some reason? like i say, we can understand that, then we can get a focus on where we go to find the offender. it is all very case-specific. it depends on the individual facts and things we have at each particular case. host: paul is an independent in

georgia. paul, are you there? caller: who? host: in georgia. what is your question or comment? caller: i held -- yes, i am here. host: and we are listening to you, go ahead. caller: my question to mr. gregg, how are you doing today? guest: doing well, thank you. caller: i remove my shoes on the airport, my baggage is checked. how come all of these drugs, to this country? guest: how, drugs, into the country is that the question? -- how come drugs come into the country? is that the question? certainly we are trying to enforce the laws and keep those things out of here it we can see the problem when it goes and

control in mexico. the extraordinary violence with a narcoterrorism. we're not perfect and crimes are committed every day, but we are doing our best to prevent those things and solve the ones that we can prevent. host: how does the fbi choose a special agent to be profiler? there is not many of their special qualifications, even more criteria needed? guest: typically draw from the pool of agents. we want at least 10 years or more of investigative experience. i was in the field 15 years before i got involved. we want seasoned investigators. people ideally with advanced degrees, behavioral sciences or social sciences, or some science related -- host: psychology you are referring to? psychiatry? guest: absolutely did any of those behavioral sciences would be a good academic background. the important thing is to have a

skilled investigators who knows how to apply these things to investigations, because it is ultimately the investigative techniques or tools that is used to help solve crimes. host: how to be other agents and whitby road you profilers? -- how did the other agents in the beirut and you profilers? -- in the bureau view profilers? guest: i had a guy bring it is dismembered corpse, and it was actually a grizzly bear attack. we get some harassment, but it is respected. host: timmy, democrat in west virginia. are you with us? you are on the air, sir. caller: my question relates to the prior caller. i wonder if they are doing and he refers profiling of law enforcement agencies -- doing reverse profiling of law-

enforcement agencies. i had been watching tv quite often, i notice they and getting a lot of drug money -- they have been getting a lot of drug money. vice versa. in other states. but they are not seizing drugs -- host: ok, we will leave it there. we got two phone calls about drug crimes, versus terrorists, murders, serial killers. how does a poor father go about distinguishing between all of those three -- how does a profiler go about distinguishing between all of those three? guest: that combine these things. if we have a dead victim, and the person is a drug dealer, where does that dieguide the

investigation? clearly to drug dealing, and retribution and some sort of for market dominance, some of drug dealer killing another drug dealer to eliminate competition. it works the same in all of these areas. victimology, all of these things. host: we are in the national crime and punishment museum. you see ballistics and fingerprinting, and etc. how does ballistics help, for example? guest: if it is enough, we can only get back to a specific weapon, or we -- can at least -- we can link it back to a specific whether or at least narrow it down to the type of weapon we looking for. whether it is the blood around, the shell casing -- the bullet around, the shell casing.

when the bullet is fired, there are groups inside the barrel. every what is unique. pon is unique. they can be compared to give us general characteristics, or if it is detailed enough, we can get to a specific web. host: what about fingerprinting? guest: same thing. depending on the quality of the prince, they can be helpful. new techniques are being developed all the time in. it has been a around for awhile, but the technique of using super glue is technique that has not been about years ago, but it has been around for years. it can be effective. host: and a fingerprint database in west virginia is one of the largest in the world and holds the most fingerprints. guest: what we're doing is

computerized testing. it would have taken hours or years, maybe, it to go card by card by card. depends on the individual examiner to make the call, but they -- that is very good. it was helpful in the d.c. sniper case years ago, where we had a fingerprint in case they were bragging about in montgomery, alabama. sent in with the dna -- the same thing with the dna bit technology is very, very effective. host: how often do you hear from state and local law enforcement saying, hey, i need help, a profile on this case? guest: keep in mind, murder is

-- typically murder, even a serial murderer, is a local or state violation. we don't come in and take over case. we don't take over a serial murder case or investigation. we are there to support the authorities who have the primary jurisdiction, there to work behind the scenes and provide any expertise we have to the investigators to hopefully move forward and solve the case. host: what is a new technology or area of our forensic science that is groundbreaking for the fbi, for profilers in the fbi? guest: stuff we talked about continues to grow. with dna, this stuff came on the scene in the 1980's and we needed a big splotch of blood or semen before they could do any sort of analysis. now it is microscopic or sub- microscopic. ng things, you

cannot even see it but it is a their bread is refining the techniques and being more discriminating in our ability to find these things. host: we are showing our viewers toxicology. what does that mean, and how does that help? guest: is used in an autopsy. i took the case last year. a woman died of unexplained causes in cleveland, ohio. she got sick. when the investigation developed, nothing was determined to be the cause of death. there is the normal toxicology screen that was run and nothing came up. information developed that she may have been poisoned by potassium cyanide. we did a cycle -- we did it talks logical testing and we found out she had nine times the lethal amount of cyanide in her system. she had been poisoned. that led to her husband as the suspect. is a long story, but he is serving eight long prison

sentence for murdering his wife. toxicology was key in the murder and manner of death. host: all this week on "washington journal," looking inside the fbi. our guest, gregg mccrary. alex is an independent in new york. caller: good morning, gregg. two quick questions and then i will hang up and listen to the answer. i wonder if you could comment on the fbi 's citizens' academy, about that program. the second one is, what do retired profilers do as far as where they move on? thank you for being on, i will listen to the answers. guest: thank you, alex. two good questions did the fbi citizens' academy exists in every liaison field office.

we worked for citizens, we represent their interests in the crimes, and we want them to get to know us. i would encourage anyone interested to call your local field office and inquire about that. we give tours of the bureau and we want to demystify as much of this as we can to help people understand better what we do so they can help us. law enforcement, at the end of the day -- we are only as good as the citizens want us to be. we depend on them to provide information and report crimes. it is important that we have a good relationship. host: how small the detail is too small? guest: no detail is too small. that could be the one you are looking for, absolutely. you have to evaluate each piece of evidence as it comes in. things that may not seem important first become a very important later as the investigation terms. -- turns. it is a revolving sort of

relationship, symbiotic relationship, as investigation goes on. host: does the witness also get guest:? -- does the witness also get a profile? guest: not usually. we talk about doing crime scenes and francine analysis. we have to think of the mind at a crime scene. our crime scene as a location that holds at least potential evidence of a crime. a victim's-certainly has evidence, as -- victim's mind certainly has evidence. how you surge that crime scene? how do you do the cognitive crime searching. same time, we want to be careful not to contaminate a crime scene with that interviewing or interrogation strategy. host: queens, new york. democratic caller. caller: you started when a j.

edgar hoover was in charge of the fbi. i am wondering about the changes after his death affected your work. guest: very dramatic changes. i came in 1969 under hoover -- old school, if you will -- where this idea of profiling did not even exist. host: did that change under hoover? guest: not really. he died in early 1970's, 1972, if i recall. but to be fair, to be honest, up profiling has been in existence ever since there was crime in an informal way because investigators show up and say, gee, who would do this? what we are trying to do is formalize this program, make a scientific, do research, and see how tight and discriminating a program which can develop. host: neil in fort lauderdale. caller: good morning, agent

mccrary. i find what you do to be not only fascinating but absolutely essential to our well-being. your many years of experience, it begs the question -- when evidence is grossly lacking or sparse at best, how many times have you relied upon at a visceral, intuitive, gut feeling that lead you down the path to success? gues well, this certainly is an issue that comes up. a lot of it depends on experience. when you look at a crime scene and you know something is wrong. how do you know is wrong? you have looked at thousands of crimes scenes. this one is staged. the perpetrator does it to avoid detection. host: the person is organized.

guest: we put them on a continuum from organized to disorganize. organized would be thoughtful, intellectual, trying to avoid apprehension, more evidence- conscious. the disorganized offender reacts start up spontaneously. those crime scenes look more frenzied, and have a chaotic sense to them. i guess the answer to the question is, to agree, that does play a role after you have looked at thousands of times scenes and you look at one and you know this is not right, something is wrong with this scene. you begin to drill down, and at the end of the date, hopefully, we find evidence we need. host: which type of criminal, it is organized or unorganized, is more of a threat, causes more concerned? guest: organize the offenders are better at avoiding apprehension so they can have a lot of corporate disorgani --

have a longer career. disorganized offenders, we can catch them more quickly. host: what are some examples of an organized criminal, one that would stick out in people's minds in history? guest: ted bundy is somebody everybody has some familiarization with. he killed for a number of years and had numerous victims. he was very good overtime at avoiding detection and apprehension, actually escaping from prison at different points and so forth. that is the sort of offender who was more highly organized, more thoughtful, more devious, more creative, more intellectual, can pose more of a challenge. host: we are live this morning from the national museum of common punishment. eric is a republican in illinois. caller: yes, hello.

i was calling to ask mr. ..mccrary, how do you guys provocative individuals -- how do you guys profile corrupt individuals, such as in law enforcement, people who manipulate records? my name is aaron, and i was born in illinois, and at two months ago, i got out profile report from the west virginia said saying that i am a born in texas. i am not born in texas. the police department has manipulated two of my it rests in 2008. how would abo >> how would i change these and knowing these are corrupt individuals, and i need help, and these are corrupt individuals. >> guest: the fbi does investigate police corruption

and civil rights violation, and what i suggest is that he accountant his local fbi office and make his concerns known, and then that would be the best way for him to proceed at this point. >> host: let me dig down in the training of a profiler. forensic psychology, what is it? >> guest: study of science of dead bodies if you will, looking for cause of death. i took courses in basic and advanced freeness -- forensic pathology. what that does is allow profilers to read autopsy reports with a better understanding of what's discussed in there. what i would also add is that the bureau has outside experts. we have people on contract, forensic pathologists on contract. when we have a specific question, as i had in a number of cases with the bureau, i

could pick up the phone, call one and said, hey, here's what i'm reading. i don't understand it. is this what they mean? sometimes we get that contact in touch with the pathologist who did the examine, and we get together to understand what's being said. >> host: a total of 400 hours looking at sciences, psychiatry, but give us a break down. how much time did you spend studies psychology, sigh chi try >> >> guest: i have a masters in psychological services, so there's the academic component. what we look at in the bureau is how that pathology is expressed in crimes or crime scenes. that's what we want to look at. that's a unique area. you can get a ph.d. in psychology and never look at a crime scene. we take what we know about mental disorder, men --

mental illness and how that manifests into criminal behavior. >> host: jack, a democrat in montana, go ahead. >> caller: yes, hi. i heard you mention montana, and i was wondering if you could tell the audience about the fact that the field office is butte, montana was noted to be the worst assignment for an fbi agent and people were sent there to be punished; is that right? >> host: how do you know that? >> caller: newspaper articles have been written about it in the local press. >> host: okay. all right. >> guest: there's truth and falseness to that. going back to hoover days, the joke was if you screwed up you get a disciplinary to butte. guys who loved mops would screw things up to get transferred there. some guys loved it and matt, a

good friend of mine, is from that area. he got back there and so forth. >> host: what did he do to get back there? >> guest: an office of preference transfer because he wanted to go there. that doesn't take place so much anymore. there's other disciplinary features for agents who screw things up, but there was a standing joke back in the day that, you know, if you were not careful, you could be in butte. >> host: profiler salary. you know, this is a public policy program, talking about the government and taxpayers are paying for the bureau, so salaries. host it changed? >> guest: salaries are there on the website, look at the scale, and find it. as far as i know agents are gs10, and the field agents are top 13, and then up to 14. most profilers are a gs14, and so whatever that salary is today -- >> host: is that the highest? >> guest: yes, yeah, if you

stay as a profiler. if you move off administratively, you get salary increases, but as the line -- as i say, the line profiler who is a profiler, the title is supervisory special agent, a grade 14. >> host: worked at the first from 1969 to 1995, profiler for many years and author of a book, unknown darkness, profiling the predators among us. diane, republican in minnesota. >> caller: thank you. thank you for having all this week -- all your discussions on what the fbi does, but i'm curious to find out because we've been to so many major cities, and i've had the opportunity to see what major cities look like, and i'm wondering how you could triple

the amount of fbi, cia employees, but each city we go to, including minneapolis, it seems like they are destroyed, and they are destroyed by gangs, so why not spend more time or, i guess my question -- >> host: we'll take your question about field offices. >> guest: yeah. most every field office with a gang crime has a gang pass source. the bureau is involved in that with the local state and county agencies who are responsible. there is an area we have an interest in, the bureau has an interest in, and there are task forces in place to deal with that, granted it's like other crime props. we have not solved it totally. it still exists, but it's not ignored. it's being addressed. >> host: profilers in all 56 field offices? there's not that many of them, so try out or -- >> guest: what we have in

every field office is at least one coordinator, and we call nca, the coordinator. we have field coordinator who has some training in profiling who knows what we need, who knows what we want, can liaison with the local authorities and say, hey, i think we need a profile, they hook it up, get involved in facilitating it. they know the materials we need. we have that middleman, if you will, the agent in the field, and sometimes more than one agent in the field depending on the training as coordinators can coordinate with local authorities to get profiling work done. we do go out. sometimes they come to us if it's an ongoing case. we triage the cases. if it's a serial murder or rape case where the public is at a continued realistic threat of harm, many times we'll go out. those become our number one priorities to stop that violence as quickly as we can.

if it's an old cold case homicide from ten years ago, we'll get to it, but not today. >> host: triage? what do you mean by that? >> guest: triage like medical tree yamg dealing with the most dramatic casualties first. who's life is in the balance and those who can hang on for awhile, we get to those later. we look at the ones with the severe circumstances that need the quickest response. >> host: next, massachusetts, ben, an independent. >> caller: hi, good morning. thanks for having me on. hello? >> host: we're listening, ben, go ahead. >> caller: hi. i'm wondering if you have applied your expertise. i know you with respect in the fbi at the time during the 9/11 attacks, but i've spent some time looking into it and looking at the forensic evidence of it,

and, you know, you can even look if you were to do a toxicology report on these people dying from the abnormal lung disease. i think what you'd find inside their lungs are these nano size particles of dust that can only be manufactured at a highly controlled facility, so i guess -- sorry, i'm just a little nervous. it's kind of a big issue. >> host: ben, are you wondering if he's looked into this? >> guest: well, personally, it's my understanding that sure, the fbi was involved in the 9/11 investigation, but fema had had the lead on this which seemed odd to me to begin with because they're under direct control of the president, and -- >> host: okay. >> caller: all the information. >> host: we'll take it from

there ben. talk about the investigation and fema. >> guest: first of all, i was not involved in the investigation, clear about that. the fbi would've a lead. the fbi has the lead jurisdiction in investigating that. >> host: because it's domestic. >> guest: because it's domestic terrorist attack, and we'll have the lead investigation. even overseas when there's attacks on american embassies or americans overseas, the bureau has jurisdiction, and we fly agents to the places and do investigations there. i think where he was going with this was the idea that something that could have been manufactured in labs, and we still have a lot of conspiracy theorists about the 9/11 attacks like it was an inside job or something like that. people are going to believe what they want to believe, but i think the independent evidence shows what, you know, this was done by the terrorist who did hijack those planes, and i don't know of any indication or any

evidence of any sort of particle. the only thing i can think of is right after 9/11 with the anthrax attacks, and those were inhalational deaths of anthrax particles suspended in the white powder and all of that, but that's separate from the 9/11 investigation and attacks. >> host: what has been in your career, the most difficult profile to put together and why? >> guest: well, i don't know. they are all -- each one is its own unique challenge. i think they are all unique. one of the most interesting cases that i had was a serial murder case where the individual was murdering in europe and the united states, and he was sort of back and forth between the two, and i always say the true crime is more interesting or more unbelievable than fictional crime because write this stuff as fiction, people won't believe it, but this guy, for example, was a member of the media who was covering his own murders for

the media, reporting on it, writing for the newspaper, going on tv, doing interviews, meanwhile killing women, and then interviewing the people in charge, interviewing about the status and nature of the investigation and all of those things. it was an intriguing case. >> host: did your profile include that aspect? >> guest: well, i was involved later in the case and testifying in austria against this guy and the trial over there, but they don't think like we do. he went to los angeles to kill people. this is why criminals don't think like we do. if you went to los angeles to kill a lot of people k probably where would you not go? avoid at all costs if you went to los angeles? probably the police department and you didn't want them to know. this guy, the narcissism is there, first thing he does is go not lapd and introduces himself as a foreign reporter to do

stories on prostitutes. he comes back, kills three while he's in town. they doamplet think like we do, and there's a lot of narcissism involved, and there's a number of sort of interesting cases. >> host: george, independ from missouri, george. >> caller: missouri. >> host: okay, go ahead. >> caller: the fbi -- do they study cybercrime and i know i'm changing the subject and profiling, looking into that. that's the simple question. >> host: yeah, george, in fact earlier this week, george, we did focus on cyber threats at the fbi yesterday actually on the washington journal, and all the programs this week of the last hour, monday through today, can be found at c-span.org if yourself interested in those.

go ahead. >> guest: certainly that is something profilers look at, too. who is doing this and what can we tell about them? you read in the newspapers that the fbi does make arrests on the hacking cases and so forth. it's something we're very concerned with because the potential damage that cyber threats or cyber terrorists could pose. >> host: trent, independent in st. paul, minnesota. >> caller: yeah, good morning. hello? >> host: we're listening, trent. >> caller: yeah, hello. yeah. >> host: i'm here. >> caller: i want to ask the gentleman, how many time does the fbi have to investigate corruption within the department of justice? >> guest: well, again, that would be something the bureau would be interested in is looking at corruption within the department of justice itself. we have as much time as we needed to do that depending upon the nature of the allegation and validity of the allegation.

that's something to take seriously, and i'm sure would not be opposed to doing or the politics would not be involved at all, a professional investigation into that. something the bureau would do without hesitation. >> host: what's your interrogation training? >> guest: it's to ill illicit the truth from an individual. it can be dicier than you think. what is the person we are interviewing? any psychological issues that come to bear? mental disorders, personality disorders, all has to be evaluating when constructing age shaping an interview. like i said, the mind -- think of it as a crime scene that we want to search carefully, and we want to be sure we don't contaminate it. basic interrogation, don't ask leading questions. did you see a red car?

i'll say, tell me what you saw because i don't want to, you know, give you the idea there's a red car involved in this thing. how you do this, you know, it's careful, but it's more nuanced dealing with particular mental issues of the person you're interviewing. >> host: what training do you go through? >> guest: yeah, well, it takes a lot of time and practice. it's not something you can learn in a classroom. it's the importance of being an experienced field agent having ten years of experience because you conducted hundreds of thousands of interviews and have an idea how that goes. plus, that gives you the credibility when you go into the field to work with detectives if you provide interview interrogation strategy, you have to have more than academic training. you need real life training in order to do that and give credible advice. >> host: republican line, from sunnyville, california. >> caller: thank you for taking my question.

my question is for the last five years i worked with severely disorganized, mentally ill people who committed serious crimes, but at the same time, i'm also getting people who coming out of prison who look like they are severely disorganized in their mental health, but what we've come to see is that they've been on drugs for several years, and wops they've cleaned up, then what happens is we realize, okay, this is probably drug up deuced psychosis, so i want to know how -- is there a way for you to tell in the crime scenes between somebody who is severely ill or somebody who is, you know, who is on drugs who looks like they are severely mentally ill. >> guest: the short answer is no. it's going to be disorganized crime scene whether psychosis is result of the mental illness or a drug induced psychotic issue.

we can't tell looking at the crime scene, but it has the same disorganized characteristics. it's phren -- frenzied and chaotic. youth could be a factor, drug abuse, mental illness, all of those things by themselves or in combination with one another can yield a disci's organized crime -- disorganized crime or crime scene. >> host: i'm curious how the bureau of the agents view policymakers here in the washington, d.c., the guys who write the checks and give you the resources and things that you need. >> guest: uh-huh. well, probably not surprised to hear we never the we get all the resources we want or need. i guess that's probably a common, you know, a common complaint. truthfully again, i'm not -- with the fbi now that i know a lot of good liaison goes between the bureau headquarters and the folks on the hill who make the

decisions and we explain why we are doing it and why we need support on this. it's a continuing -- not battle -- but a continuing discussion that goes on. >> host: you're in not in the fbi anymore. how did you see the bureau change? >> guest: changed dramatically over the years and continues to change dramatically. bigger change after 9/11, the shift into terrorism was a big shift. i'm obviously it was part of what we had done before, but there was a big sea change around them. everything has changed. i mean, when i went in, there was no female agents. it was a paramilitary thing. eight guys to a room in a marine barracks, two guys to a locker, eight guys to a room, shuttled out to the farms in cattle trucks. it was a little -- >> host: more like the military. >> guest: yes. now it's like a college campus with dorm rooms and a lot of female agents, and that's great,

but it's changed. it's changed dramatically over the years and certainly mostly far, far for the better. >> host: we noted at the top you are involved with profiling. what do you do? >> guest: that's the question -- i think it was alex who asked before. i'm retired now, but i'm still doing work. i work in crime cases. i do expert testimony in criminal cases both prosecution and defense cases depending on the facts, and civil litigation as well. i teach part time at a couple universities, i do presentations. i'll do one for law enforcement later this month. i've done different presentations for different agencies. i'll talk to the canadian association of psychiatry and the law later this year. teaching at universities still involved in crime and crime scene analysis and providing expert testimony in cases. >> host: gregg mccrary, author of a book as well, profiling the predators among us.

ilene joining us from connecticut, an independent. >> caller: good morning. i'm calling because i'm wondering about the promise software that bill and linda hamilton corporation had stolen by the justice department and that edward meson and earl brian was linked to and stolen the proprietary software and remade it to have a back door in it, and he gave them a judgment, and the federal government has never paid that judgment. i'm wondering where you stand on that since you deal in criminal activity and investigate it. >> guest: well, again, i don't know anything about that particular casement i don't want to comment on the case i'm not familiar with. that would be wrong for me to do

that. sorry i couldn't answer the question, but i don't know the specifics of the case, and it would be wrong for me to speculate as to what that might be about. >> host: does hollywood get it right? there's shows about profiling. >> guest: they have dramatic stuff, fun me views and tv shows to watch. bottom line though is no, no, they don't get it right. we don't fly around on private jets as the guys in "criminal minds" do. as a matter of fact, i had a phone call with a guy named tony daniels, the assistant director in charge of the academy, and he asked do you watch criminal minds? you keep that jet plane hidden from me. no, we don't. we don't have jets. i would love to work in the environment. they have all this sexy blue lighting, no we just work in cubicles and typical government office space. they glamourize it. we don't get in shoot outs or fly on private jets, and we

don't solve crimes, we help solve crimes. the people who solve them is the front line investigators which are the local and state police, and we're just a resource for them to use. >> host: what would surprise viewers about the profiler itself or the fbi in general. >> guest: i think the tediousness of the work. reading report after report after report. i was involved in a case awhile ago in ohio. 6,000 pages of documents, 6,000 pages to work your way through. nothing glamorous about thatment i think the tediousness about it is the day-to-day work that people might be a little bit surprised about. >> host: and the profiling, that's tedious work? >> guest: yeah, you have to review all these documents before you can offer any sort of opinion. it's going through there, it's going through all of that. you don't want to jump out and

get ahead of yourself and offering opinions when you have not seen all the evidence. it takes a lot of time sometimes. if there's a case going on or complicated cases. >> host: gregg, thank you very much for joining us this morning. we'll take a few more calls, but thank you, too, for being with us. >> guest: pleased to be here. >> host: and helping to talk to our viewers. >> guest: sure, pleased to do it. >> well, we're here at the national crime and piment museum in downtown dc located on 7th

street between e and f, and there's five galleries here looking at criminal intent, soling crime, prevention of crimes, all different aspects of crime and punishment as it's called, and they were inside the crime solving part of the museum where you can learn about toxicology, ballistics, ect., and we're joined by the chief operating officer here at the museum. thanks for being with us. >> no problem. >> host: when did the museum open, and give us the highlights. >> guest: we opened may 23, 2008, so we just completed our three year anniversary, and you kind of said a couple things, but the museum is broke into five galleries. we start with the history of crime, take people through the history of punishment showing there's a consequence to crime, and then we focus on crime fighting and all the different branches of crime fighting including the fbi, and then you

work yourself into a crime scene investigation area where you start with seeing a crime scene taking through how law enforcement solves a crime, and then you go into the last level, the third floor which is the basement level for the america's most wanted area and the judicial system. >> host: the america's most wanted area is where john walsh did his program. >> guest: correct, correct. we hope he still comes there and have discussions. we also offer labs there in that area so people can come in, the general public, you know, you were just saying as tv show really? we teach classes here showing reality, how law enforcement goes about using some of their techniques and pretty soon we'll be operating virtual programming through some universities. >> host: you can show what the agents go through when they train, shooting guns, driving cars. >> guest: that's one the favorite areas in the museum is a driving similar mew later and

a shooting simulator that is used in law enforcement, military uses it. >> host: is it really what they go through? >> guest: i get motion sickness on the driving simulator because it is so real. you can add in weather conditions, you know, high speed chases, you know, kind of can make you keel uneasy. >> host: how many visitors a year? >> guest: we're a private museum, so we don't release numbers. >> host: how much to get in? >> caller: $20 a person to get in, but offer discounts. >> host: how long does it take to get through? >> guest: the average visitor takes two hours, but oftentimes people spend autotile in here, but typically people spend an hour and a half to two hours. >> host: have you seen attendance go down during this economy? what's is like? >> guest: our museum opened when the economy started tanking, so we, you know, opened

in a bad time, but since we're a new museum, our attendance grows every year because people are still learning about us. as i say to everyone, it's america's favorite subject. you know, tv shows are on, news on it, books on it and hopefully the attendance will grow. >> host: what do you hear when people leave? >> guest: when we ask what the favorite was, people say, we loved everything. it was great. parents say it's the one museum that they have to pull their kids out. they thank us. we have safety tips throughout the museum for kids so parents know how to address the internet situations with them. we have a lot of complements that we are very interactive. >> host: and you mentioned the thing is privately run, no government money; is that right? >> guest: correct, self-funded. >> host: you defer from the smithsonian museums in washington.

>> guest: correct. we don't get any tax dollars or donations or grant funds, no earmarks, no nothing. we're running based on admission. >> host: how are you different than the other museums around town? there's a science museum as well. how are you different? >> guest: well, we focus on espionage obviously and we focus on -- we -- that's included in law enforcement, so we focus on a much broader subject so we have, like i said, all the different galleries, you know, the history of crime and punishment, crime fights, csi, america's most wanted, the judicial system. it's a very broad subject so we have artifacts on that, and experience in all of that. >> host: the chief operating officer ring we want to thank you and the museum for letting us broadcast here this morning and have our show here. >> guest: thank you.