looking forward to it and he sets scenes on streets that i travel every day and so i want to see what george has done. >> tell us what you're reading this summer, send us is tweet at booktv. >> booktv is on twitter. follow us for regular updates on programming and news on nonfiction books and authors, twitter.com/booktv. >> next, a former baltimore homicide detective and an investigative crime reporter take an in-depth look at murders in baltimore, maryland, which average around 250 a year. this is about 45 minutes. ..

>> it's not immediate. if this particular moment, let's try to understand. the reason we did that is fairly simple. baltimore is consistently one of the most violent cities in the country. no matter what. right now the mayor will tell you that crime is down. and that's true but if you look at a relative to other cities we are the most, one of the most violent, i think in the top five. the question is why. the question is why do we keep doing the same things.

in baltimore city for the past 10 years, 20 years, the answer to that has been some form of law enforcement we have zero tolerance policy where we arrest 100,000 people a year. it's always been the question of law enforcement or a question of building more prisons. it's ironic that we worked on this together but my thinking was when i approached him and we talked about doing this, or he approached me, was to provide some content. take some cases with details and try to convinced some sort of understanding. that's not an easy question, but rather than be overly philosophical, kelvin was able to share with me cases and his insight in some cases that are fairly extreme which is what this story of crime in baltimore singularly which is it is a laboratory of the extremes. you have extreme behavior.

some cases are difficult to comprehend. when a 14 year old child shoots woman he doesn't know from 100 yards across the street. or a group of teenage girls set a man on fire while he is alive. these are things as citizens of this city that are difficult for us to comprehend that must be comprehended in some way that is meaningful so we can perhaps alleviate this problem. i cover crime as reporter and i'm part of the problem. i go to a crime scene, write a story, interview a few people, now i'm a producer for fox 45 and part of the problem is it's a 24 hour news cycle. we were hoping this book by combining both of our perspectives would have something to the equation of our understanding of crime, and what it means, why do people kill? you have to think about it. we are a fairly unique city in a six or 700 times a year someone picks up a gun and aims it and

some and pulls the trigger. that doesn't include stabbings are people die from overdoses and and determine deaths which are unclassified. it's quite unusual compared to any other city in this country besides detroit and a few others, compared to europe and other places. we in many social situations choose violence to settle matters that might otherwise be settled in less mild ways. so the question is what are the combination of factors, what is it in the psyche, of the people choose to take another life? the only way you will know that if for someone like kelvin who i sat in the box of people, has been up close to people who we would consider have done things that would be absolutely reprehensible to us. but however seem commonplace. so that being said, kelvin, maybe you want to talk about why you decided to participate in this are why we did this together.

>> first off, i wanted to see the book also talks about how difficult a homicide detectives job is working in baltimore city. is guys got each and every day. they experienced some of the difficult challenges dealing with families who have lost loved ones. these guys sometimes, ladies and germs sometimes have to put their family second, they are working with families who lost loved ones very closely to their lives. so these detectives, including myself, we spent a lot of time in what we called the box. we deal with some of the most violent criminals. a lot of repeat offenders. we tried to do sometimes the impossible. get confessions out of why they have done some the things they've done. take another human being's life. sometimes it's a difficult challenge. sometimes a person just do it out of, for example, love for

another -- i would say another love-hate for another person. one of the cases particularly is the case with melvin wilson i wanted to talk about, who in fact thought he was a 14 year-old -- 90 okay, i'm sorry. he betrayed his love by wanting to buy a young girl who lived in the neighborhood a gift. the cost of that for some reason melvin snape and lewis a little kid up in the woods and took his life. that was difficult because a lot came out of that case with social service was involved with her mother was warned several times to tell the kid to stay way from this kid. the mother herself wound up in jail for not protecting her kid the way she should have. also the case of melody smith, who the police department --

there was a person by the name of gregory. he kind of leeward the police officers away from ms. smith and directed the police officers towards him to show that he was the victim and not melody smith. and the entire time it was melody smith. in fact, i think the police officers responded to her house at least 50 times before we locate ms. smith strangled and beaten to death. in fact, at one point while we are at the location, while we were at the location ms. smith helped us out in her case by fedex in herself a letter indicating who the suspect was who killed her. and that letter arrived at her residence while we were there that day. that's also one of the things we discussed in this book writer. >> one thing that kelvin, we talked quite a bit during, when

i was reporter and he was a homicide detective. one of the things he let me know was how dysfunctional the system was in many cases like in the case of ms. smith without a protection order and call the police 50 times. and also the situation you had with the states attorneys office were many times kelvin would say look, i know who did this, i know who murdered this person and i have a witness but i don't have to witness. so the state attorney's office will not issue a warrant. this became a big issue in the campaign, but to me i mean you get a call from kelvin and he says look, i can take a murderer off the street right now but i can't get a warrant. to me that spoke to at this functionality in a system that we as citizens of baltimore. great deal of money to protect us, and that oftentimes seems politics and a lot of the other things that shouldn't really

affect an organization that is trying to take murderers off the street, there should be a priority. that was a big problem there. >> i see a lot of homicide detective in the audience right now who also understand what we've been through, where we had a suspect after walking the street right now that we know should be off the street. if we had a little bit of help from then the states attorneys office but now we've got to say greg bernstein was an officer in a who will let us take any cases, these cases to court with these one witnesses and try to get these people prosecuted and off the streets. but for a homicide detective it's frustrating because you're the person committed the murder. you can talk to that person while he's on the streets. you know he did this murder that you don't have the tools to take them off the street because -- i think to some extent that's not fair to the detective who works hard after time to keep murderers off the streets.

>> what was it you said to me about the building? used to call me up all the time spent when i was driving into work, drive my vehicle, i would look up at the building, police headquarters and always said, you know, there's more problems in that building right there than it is on the streets. [laughter] if we can just get that turnaround it might be better. step for both of us, kelvin has to go to the homes of people whose son or daughter has been taken from this world. as a reporter we also talked to those families. and when you see all the sort of obstacles to clear thinking and truth with regards to the subject matter, it becomes frustrating. i think it's one of the reasons the book was so important. at least to the people in see a clear, straightforward, you know, view of what happened. and why people might kill.

maybe start answering that question. if we can answer that question then we can perhaps have the ability to solve the problem, which has been beyond our ability -- i was just looking at the murder rate in d.c. they had 45 murders this year as opposed to 125 or i don't know exactly is your industry. that is true throughout the country. so why should we have to suffer with the worst homicide rate or one of the worst homicide rates but i think part of problem issues we don't really have time for we don't really know exactly what's going on and can't deal with the situation if we don't have something of the truth. kelvin was courageous enough and willing to share that soda i could write it, we could write together in a way that would be meaningful. that's why we did the book. >> basically what this book is also about is there's no editing in this book which tells about the truth and what goes on the streets in baltimore city. it doesn't give you that channel

11, channel 13 news version of a big issue the details of what occurred on the streets of baltimore. i think people should get this. people want to know the truth. they want to know what goes on. this book tells the truth that details what happens out there. it takes away from, from what the news puts out there, the details of what happened so people stop and think of this is what happens in baltimore city so what are going to do about it to try to fix this problem. >> i mean, i don't want, and also just one of the comment in terms of the media. i'm a member of the media. i work early for fox for five as an investigative producer. i think the media structured is an important way to get breaking news. this is not a condemnation. enforcing that everyone deserves time to think about things. this book is opposed a more thoughtful look at it and an immediate look at it. i spent a lot time with kelvin discussing the cases. ejb a lot of insight and that's

more what it's about. spent and also to watch it all of it better, but reading this book, it shows you, individuals out there who commit these murders and what they're looking for and how they commit these words. just keep an eye on your kids a little better, keep an eye on your loved ones are little better so they don't, they can also. and that's basically what the book talks about. >> can i make a comment? these guys would send material to me most often in the middle of the night, and pretty much finished draft form and i had to read it. this is something that i think everybody needs to read. i couldn't put it down and i don't like to read crime stories. i don't want to read about murder and what happens to people. but every time i read a draft i couldn't put it down, it was so compelling. and kelvin's perspective on what goes on in baltimore and what goes on in the police department is something that everybody in

baltimore and other places need to know about because it needs fixing. and hopefully this book, or his intention and stevens intention is to hopefully do something about this, not that we can solve this problem necessary, but we do run on investigative voice, stephen and i run lots of stories about crime and about murder and about shootings. and it seems like every week somebody is being shot, somebody is being killed in baltimore. and it's a horrible thing. but we can't close our eyes to it and say well, i don't want to do with that, i don't want to read about it. it something will have to deal with if we live here. >> we tried as close as possible to get into the psyche of the person that kelvin encounter and some of people any cases and what he shared with me in the box. so hopefully the book itself will give you a perspective that perhaps he homicide detective

would have. and thus give you a sense of how sort of this is only certain parts of the city are with the rest of the city. as a reporter i coded the site and the website, it's like you're going into a place where 30 people, 40 people have been murdered in a year in a very small area. and it transforms the psychological landscape of the city. because people, i was just anything someone today and he said, the people who are really transformed by violence, they don't blink because if they think they might get killed so they become very tense. you should start in dealing with kids who witnessed three, four, five murders by the aged nine or 10. it's transformative on your psyche because you've been surrounded by violence that is almost like a war zone. and to the nature of those neighborhoods, the lack of support and community services and the things that give a neighborhood stability are hard to describe unless you see it firsthand. i think kelvin have seen it firsthand.

>> and definitely i've seen it, seen it firsthand, definitely put an impact on what i wanted this book to come out. i wanted people to understand and see to my eyes what i've seen. so they can basically just be careful. but i also wanted to say, to turn this aside and let it get people to start thinking about protecting their loved ones, you have to start with these elements -- elementary schools. start at that level. by the time a kid turns 15 years old, 16 years old, they are in the middle school age. they could still be saved. if you get them at the elementary school age and work with those kids, get these kids minds on the straight and narrow, at that point i think our society will change in the near future. >> okay, if anyone wants to ask questions -- sorry. this is al 4 him he edited the

book for 30 was very estimate and helping us put the book together. he was a great part of what we did together. >> on the one who says everyone should read it. >> i guarantee if you read this book you will not want to put it down. there's a lot of information in this book that people need to know. and i think it will help a lot of people understand what really goes on in baltimore city. >> we'll have about 10, 15 minutes of q&a, and then at the end of that with copies of the book on sale in the back and assure these gentlemen will be glad to discuss further the book with you and/or sign a copy of the book for you. and we will be open and the bar in the back will be opened again if you want to get another refreshment or something. so that being said, who has questions? >> i was just one if you can talk about some of the conclusions of why people kill? i mean, that's the title and i have a question. and then also the idea of this book getting a lot of details

about homicide, murder, and you know, what goes on behind the scenes. i feel like there's a lot of unnecessary information in the media daily. it's not just weekly. it's every night about who gets killed and what happens. people kind of glom onto the. so what's the difference between that and what's in the book? i know those are two questions. >> well, first of all, the difference in this book perhaps is the intimacy of the narrative. you know, i think a lot of times in the media we don't have time to explore the characters behind the crime or their personality, or the social circumstance, or the context. why people kill in baltimore, to me, and this is just them from talking to people and going to neighborhoods, it's because a lot of times they feel that's the only choice that they have. that their lives, you know, they're so separate from the

system that we all are used to participating in in a lot of ways. i was talking to this young gentleman today and he was saying they don't think, people in some of these committees don't believe that they have the same future. so when a conflict arises, you know, it's easy to pick up again and maybe, or the frustration, anger and isolation. i'm not making excuses for people who decide to do this but i'm simply telling you what i've are from talking to kelvin and going to neighborhoods, that there's a sense of isolation and desperation that is inculcated into their lives to an extent that is the only reality that they know. or that this particular person knows. and it transcends all the type of decisions that we make in our lives to deal with things that we can't deal with. we all reach walls in places and we're places to turn. i think in a lot of these neighborhoods the rec centers have gone, the schools are having trouble. there's a term as police

presence, but there's not a presents this is where the way to help you, or we have a way to show you a future where your life will be improved. there's lead poisoning, i was in an apartment, a woman was living next door, she's taking rent -- the landlord ordered it up. the cockroaches are so bad, she had to offer furniture. everyone she called, no one would help her. there's a sense of isolation. that isolation i believe leads to desperation. i'm not saying that they did the right thing for this is a moral justification for taking someone's life. i'm so by trying to answer the question truthfully, this is what does it. a lot of times you say that, you say look at the circumstances. people say that's ridiculous, you're a jerk. it's their choice. that's true, but if we ignore the fact is, if we ignore what type of community we have created, then we're just going

to be having this same conversation three years from now. one of the key element of this book, why do we, not you or someone else. why do we. we as a community share a certain amount of responsibility for everything that occurs. and until we recognize that on a fundamental and complete level, we're not going to be able to solve this problem. if people think it's wrong to say that we have created this, then we will i guarantee you for your somehow have just as many murders as we have this year. i guarantee. and tell we are willing to say collective with we have created a world where there are haves where there are haves and have-nots is such an extreme that people feel hopeless. until we are willing to acknowledge that we will never understand the psyche. it's not like all these people are the serial killers you see on tv live in a to point department and -- does the thing i learnt so much from kelvin, was he would talk about these people. it wasn't like one of the killers was, it was nothing like i've ever seen in a narrative or

a tv thing. it was just a matter of fact. melvin jones said he was cheating on me. he was a 50 year-old man and urban harris was nine, did i get the names wrong? >> that's right. >> so it's like matter-of-fact. it was like you been putting pictures on all him all over his wall and had a helicopter and put them in the basement and put caution on them. it's not like that. not in a row from what i understand, right? >> right. >> just wanted to make sure. we have to get past that narrative. and to get past the narrative is to look at a collectively. it's our community. >> you touched on the despair that people do. there are many studies that have shown that kids growing up in inner-city, particularly african-american boys don't expect to live to be 20 years old. so if you don't expect to live to be 20 then what is there to

restrict you from doing whatever you need to do to survive as long as you can? that's what they do. >> tell them about -- >> one of the techniques i use, so the techniques -- detectives. >> might smile about this. they don't want to talk to you. you try to get a sense of where this any do is going in to sit back and he leaned the chest at the first thing i ask them, i say okay, you're so tough, you're so bad, recite the alphabet. you'd be surprised a lot of people don't even know the english-language of the alphabet. that's what healthy start to break the ice and start the conversation with them. don't give me no element opaque. take the time and say abc. i get that a lot. people can sing it. that breaks the ice. that's where you try to come down to how can i say their level, and then talk to them.

sometimes guys, sometimes they want to talk to and sometimes they don't. but sometimes the tactics we use we get our point across and they talk to us about why they committed this murder, why they did or how they did it. that's what we tried to accomplish one where in the box to get some of these cases solved. >> that's one of the best was in the book. you have to read that. >> the credo local newscast in has for years if it bleeds, it leads. up when i watch local television news in baltimore, i have never seen as much emphasis on violence as today, not only one or two stories, but four or five stories, one after another. so the question is, do have more violence than we used to have? is it different kind of violence? or is this just a function of

news policies? >> that's a really good question, and you know, i think if you look at the numbers, technically we have fewer homicides than when you were a reporter at the sun. we probably had 350 at that point, right? or maybe the '90s, i'm not sure. but the reason, and i don't know what the reason, take your reason for the phenomena is that crime gets more hits on the internet. as companies, media companies sort of transform from print -- if you buy a crime story versus a story about city council municipal income of the crime story will get four or five times as many reads as the story about who passed the most recent build on whatever. and that dictates decisions made to me countries because internet advertising is based primarily off of how many hits you get. that's the very straightforward answer. now, why crime is becoming an obsession? could it be the wire, we are a city that is best known for exporting misery?

as the committee our cultural product is the fact that we produce a lot of crazy crime stories that go viral over the internet, that become national stories. maybe that's part of it. it's the fact that people just feel like this problem has lingered so long that it requires all our attention. and the thing is true also in the middle of the decade, mayor martin o'malley politicize the issue and said baltimore city will not be hold until we reduce crime. and i will reduce the homicide rate. so crime became truly political. and numbers became political. and everything came down to what are your numbers? is crime lore, is crime higher? the media can't resist when a politician is proven wrong, when crime continues and on the site continues, to expose that story. it's almost like baiting. that affected have kelvin to his job. so when you politicize something like crime and you and you make

it a currency can be just can't resist and it becomes the whole story. >> and what i don't want people in baltimore city to accept is at the end of the year, we have 200, for example, last year, 230, 220 homicides. don't accept that because in the back of my mind i always thought one homicide was too many. you brag on 220 and 230 homicides where you shouldn't have even one. but that's just the way the society is testing. we're trying to change that the way people think. >> another question? >> your opinion about we need to make baltimore special that other regional cities, or other cities of the same regional breakdown, that makes homicide go up? >> what makes baltimore unique? based on the homicide rate you are talking about? >> what about the city in

particular that other cities don't have to provide that? >> i'm trying to understand the question basically -- >> basically what makes baltimore unique, is there anything that makes baltimore unique? >> well, if you talk to baltimore city, a special on the east side or the westside, you see a lot of abandoned homes. where's the future come with the kids, was the education system itself? i asked him to say their abcs and they don't know. education system i think it's to be better. a lot of people live on the streets these days so they tried to do the best they can. i'm not trying to explain, i'm not trying to make it right what they're doing because it's not right, but you got to educate the people of little more and that's why i start with elementary system because a lot of these guys in middle school and high school already in

games. it's like the bounty hunters themselves. most of the commits country and kids of -- most of the kids who commit crimes or 50 or 16 years old. we have to do something to try to educate these kids, that these things did doing is not right. it starts at the elementary level and not the middle school or the high school level. if you can save some at those grades, that's fine. but you got to get young kids and let them know that you can be whatever you want in life by chapter start right here. most of the kids that go to these middle schools and high schools, their thought process is order to join a gang because that's the only family they have. >> i think just expand on that. baltimore is a grand experiment from my perspective and social a cessation of policy. everything is extreme in

baltimore, weatherby property taxes, car insurance -- [laughter] and the idea some of seems to be that we can isolate baltimore and keep those problems from seeping into baltimore county or howard county. i mean, maybe it's a summit to the social patterns of suburban is him. but really baltimore has tried to do things and say we can put people in a certain spot, poor, less educated, sick sick of it and it will all work out because they will be there and we'll be here. and so i think baltimore has tried to do this to the extreme that you've created a situation where murder and violence is the obvious outcome of that type of experiment. i think -- i'm not saying there are other cities like it. perhaps detroit, but i'm from new york and new york was a little different in that regard. it was more of a sense of the city, you know, was self-sustaining and the city was important. in baltimore, some of the thesis seems to be baltimore is supposed to fail.

it is designed to fail. and when you write a story about its failures, ever reads this and says gray, you got it right, thank you for writing that story. i told you this was going to work. so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. it's a setup. we look of violence and say this is crazy, four people shot in a 24 hour. maybe this is what happens when you design a city to be isolated, part of it to be isolated from the other part. and we don't have a full community. [inaudible] >> that gentleman had a questi question. >> i think the book is a fantastic read, to be honest with you. i think you captured this very, very well. my question is, is there any -- [inaudible] [laughter] >> we get that question all the time. i got the question again.

the thing is, steven and i talked about it and will look into it. first all this took us two years to write. but we're going to explore that option. >> we will decide that in the near future. >> almost everybody that rights into investigative which is the asked that question, once the next book coming out. they have her read one yet. >> my question was how to turn it around? and can young people, young age, how do you turn that around? >> that's where you have to dissolve the border of baltimore city and make baltimore a part of middle. that would be a big part of change, make everybody deal with the consequences of what we are created in baltimore. and if he did that, it affected other people's lives significantly, you have money and power to change things, then

i think you'd see change. i think you would see real substantial change. rather than cream this system of isolation, make everyone accountable. i'm sure it will never happen in our lifetime but i think one july the interests of the entire community with a small part of the community you will see changes but as long as we can isolate people, and we can create these stories the horrific murders and create this virtual wall, it won't change. but once people are accountable, and granted, maryland paid a lot of taxes, maryland as a whole supports baltimore city but go downtown. what used to be a manufacturing center is now a center of prisons. i took someone on a tour. and he was like i can become a prison job write off 83. it goes on forever. it's human warehouses. that's a we do know. when we decide that's not effective and when we

disappointed it's not what want to do with the people in our city that we want to house them or segregate them, then things will change. until then nothing will change, nothing. >> i think there has been a better rehabilitation system. we say in baltimore city they will take the problem and push it into baltimore county. the murder rate is getting hot at this we have to deal with it here. basically i just think it should be a system in place within baltimore city in our own society or to try to stop these murders. >> i think part of the issues that we have that we are really narrow minded in our approach to respond to people and their problems. so i agree that as young as we can get them we need to be to them. but it's not just the youth. at seven else in our lives. we need to be working with. and i just hope, and i don't get the impression from anything you're saying, but i hope we are really clear that this is about

class. this has very little to do with race. this is about class and lack of resources. yes, no? >> well, it does to a certain extent, although if you look at statistics, you know, in the prison system, african-americans are more affected by violent crime, more likely to be incarcerated, living areas with environmental concerns. i mean, yes, it is class but race has always been a backdrop. in the city with sergeant lewis here who fought discrimination for the baltimore city police department. that was a very major landmark lawsuit, so it's definitely part of the issue but you're right, you know, you have poor people are suffering more than poor people are getting killed for. so that absolutely is a true. i agree it is important issue. >> and getting to the point of

reaching kids, right here in baltimore city they have closed down rec centers. they have closed a lot. and people really don't understand the importance of grabbing kids when they are young and working with them. i was working with 17-year-olds that were reading on a fifth grade level. so, it's not -- it is a thing about race, and particularly it targets the young black males in baltimore city. and until we raise our voices and start to try to do something about that with these politicians, force them to do their jobs, i don't really see, really a lot changing. >> how do you take a situation where you have kids growing up in poverty, and a sea all around in some of the largest of the baltimore committees, see the big hotels and condos in canton

and highland town, and other parts of the city, and to say to them you can have this. how do you make them believe they can have that without becoming drug and living a life of crime? that's the way they see to get it. they see the drug dealers and the gangsters are the ones i have all the money in their community. so how do you do that? >> that's another point. still going back to really the youth. and really parents, but i know we are doing with a lot of parents that are not doing their job. you know, i see when i was on baltimore city police department, everybody want to point out the police. everybody want to point at churches. everybody want to point at schools. and yet there is a problem there, that we have to go back and educate some of these young parents. and like i said, it was starting

with the center. i worked in the senate and i worked with some of those kids and they saw a difference. sometimes, and i told him, i'm a private -- i'm a product of a private jet. so you don't have to get out here and sell drugs to be able to afford a halfway decent house, a car or something like that. you know, they have to see sometimes unfortunately positive images outside their homes. and they shut down again like i said, where police officers working the centers where we really cared about these kids. >> you're a good example. so how did you come out of that where as most of the others can't. >> i was a part of a different time. private back then which is for low income family. i had my mom and my dad didn't. okay? i had a father that let me know, my sister, i had nine brothers

and sisters. i mean, it was difficult but we understood, you had to get down here were preceded go after doing this, you didn't go out of doing that. >> you read in the book about the girls who killed mr. taylor. one girl was a college student in atlanta and her mother was a supervisor, of social security administration, wouldn't believe him when he called to tell her that her daughter had just confessed to murder. can't be my daughter, my daughter is in college in atlanta. she's not even in baltimore. >> i asked her to put her daughter on the phone to say she's here in baltimore and she did commit the murder. and then she did believe me. >> kelvin, you talked about starting at the elementary school. these chilies talked about this.

can you consider the fact that you have a fear that isn't prepared to raise a child? and most important it of -- [inaudible] we don't have schools that are ready for the kids. some were back at the very beginning, maybe before elementary school. >> i understand that, but that h. utah chorale will be difficult for the kids. but once the kid goes to elementary school level, the help to get the help for the kid. he can make a better life and a better way for himself. but those things i believe taste on what i've seen is not in place at this time. >> we have time for two more questions. we will go to you and then you. >> you know, i agree with kelvin

that we want to go a step lower. it begins at home. the family structure is not the same as it was 20 years ago. you know, we need, you know, we need to get back to the basics. you know, you have a kid that's in the fifth or sixth grade seeing violence since they were three, and then you put them in school. you tell them all these marvelous things of what you can achieve and what you can have, but that's not tangible to them because they're going back to that environment where there is a mom, dad, sister, brother abuse one another, abuse illegal substance. >> i just want to go back, i understand what you're saying. the mentality of the kids, for example, the 14 year-old who

shot the lady, you know, the mentality was in this kids minus some of the things this kid was doing was the norm for him. when i envy the kid can in what we called the box, i've got to give it to the kid. he held a long time. 23, 3:00 in the morning. finally the kid looked up at me, 114 your kid and said okay mr.,i did it. can i go home now? but this isn't what this kid, this is what he was doing. he thought when he committed this murder, he shot this lady in the back of the head on a dare, he can go home after that. >> he didn't even know her. >> he didn't even know her. >> i think part of the problem real quickly, we see things that have been crystallized over decades and we see a snapshot in a crime. we don't always get the

perspective of what led up, the culmination of things that led up to that crime. >> i just want to ask, how long have you been a whole homicide detective? and also what is possibly the most gruesome cases you come across? >> which one? >> i been a baltimore city police officer for 22 and half years but i've been a homicide supervisor since 2006. semite detectives -- we were a lot of gruesome cases. there so many of them. you can go onto the scene and you can say about on this side with ahead on that site, you know? you can go to a scene where you see anybody has been, and i hate to talk about gruesome scenes, it's something you don't see, what these detectives see out there on a normal basis. you go on the scene and you see a body, a person has been

murdered, been in the house for months in the summertime. and the body is covered with all kinds of -- hate you, you know, and then you try to get that body, get that person out of the house. the person has been in the house so long, the body explodes. so used to see things like that out there. you see a lot of stuff. and needing a homicide supervisor, i had to keep an eye on my detectives a lot of times. sometimes, not mention any names, i had a sense of my detectives to cancel because i to look at them, after they come from a homicide scene, are they okay? i won't mention their names. i had to send some good counseling and said i notice how they were acting right after this thing. it affects them as those people have seen things for the first time. >> just so we don't end on such a gloomy note, you had one question? >> i