remarks. >> hard to believe. >> basically i think one of -- transcendent things one can find in life or find survival through is creativity. some form. in my case thank god i could transform some very hard emotions and some unfortunate things that happened and stuff that could make some people hopefully happy. >> very quickly, why the title "thoughts without cigarettes"? >> at the time -- there's such a history to "thoughts without cigarettes". are live in a place in manhattan where donald trump has been putting up all these very boxy buildings and construction was driving me nuts and are bought a pack of cigarettes one day because it made me feel great. then i realized whenever i

smoked and liked it i tended to be very anxious in that period. so i started smoking in england. so i realize there's something going on here. "thoughts without cigarettes". maybe you can use that as an idea to talk about different periods of life and cigarettes came in and out and so forth. i started this book, i wrote it without smoking but occasionally "thoughts without cigarettes" is an ironic title now. you come out with stress and or that. >> a very interesting title. certainly one that i hope everyone remembers and let us >> get the booktv schedule e-mailed to you.

to sign up, use our web site and push the alert button. or text the word "book" to 99702. standard messaging and data rates apply. >> and now on booktv, amitabh pal looks at the history of nonviolence in muslim societies around the world and argues that while violent acts by muslims get covered widely by the media, nonviolent movements exist everywhere and deserve just as much recognition. this is about an hour and 20 minutes. >> hi. i'd like to welcome you all to rainbow. we're a cooperatively-owned and managed bookstore. we've been around a for over 20 years, and we're located on west gilman, 426, just off state street. so, please, come by. it is my great pleasure today to

introduce amitabh pal. he is managing editor at the progressive magazine and co-editor of the progressive media project. he has interviewed several eminent personalities for the magazine including jimmy carter, mikhail gorbachev and the dalai lama. and today he'll be discussing his recent book, "islam means peace: understanding the muslim principle of nonviolence today." so without further ado, amitabh pal. [applause] >> thanks, colin. and i'd like to start off with something that happened just today, and this is something that is so pertinent to my book and the theme of the book and what we'll be speaking about. be mark anthony slowman was executed by the state of texas.

how does that pertain to what i'll be talking about? he, actually, in the aftermath of september 11th, he went around looking for arabs to kill as revenge for september 11th, managed inted -- instead to kill somebody from india, somebody from pakistan and gravely wounded an immigrant. the immigrant describes to the new york times what happened to him. there were 38 pellets in hi face. i -- in my face. i wouldn't open my eyes or jaw. i couldn't even eat or drink anything. my face was heavily swollen. there were gunshot wounds. my face was horrible. i couldn't believe it was happening. i prayed, please, god, give my face back. the times adds he was discharged the day after being treated, he was told he did not have health insurance. over the next several months he slept on people's couches and had to rely on physician samples

for medication. how does all this pertain to the theme of my book, "islam means peace"? believe it or not, the forefront of trying to get clemency from the death penalty. when asked why, he said: i was raised very well by my parents and teachers. they raised me with good morals and strong faith. they taught me to put yourself in others' shoes, even if they hurt you. don't take revenge. forgive them, move on. it'll bring something good to you and them. my islamic faith teaches me this too. strum monday said he did this as an act of war, and a lot of americans wanted to do it, but he had the courage to do it. i decided that forgiveness was with not enough, that what he did was out of nance. i decided i had to do something to save this person's life. unfortunately, his efforts were

in vain, and he was put to death by the state of texas. but not completely in vain. mr. strummond was a white supremacist who took pride for a long time in what he did. in the end, though, the immigrant's deeds, his actions in trying to get his clemency completely changed his mind, and he said: in the free world i was free, but i was locked in a prison inside myself because of the hate i carried in my heart. this has really touched my heart and the heart of many others worldwide, especially since for the last ten years all we have heard about is how evil the islamic faith can be. this is proof that all are not battling evil. he's a survivor of my hate. his deep islamic beliefs gave him the strength to forgive the

unforgivable, and it's truly ip inspiring to me. it should be an example for us all. and from here i go back to the title of my book which is derived from a quotation by mahatma gandhi many decades ago. so you can see mahatma gandhi back in the 1920s,' 30s, they're operating on the same principle. it's quite remarkable, and i couldn't have hoped for a better example to illustrate the theme of my book. and gandhi says, you know, my reading of the curran has con -- koran has convinced me because of -- [inaudible] which is exactly the same principle in spite of suffering so much that the immigrant was with operating on also. and in spite of being, you know, disabled and so badly hurt, it's quite remarkable that he took the step of trying to get his possible killer and somebody who wounded him so badly clemency.

this is quite a remarkable moment to be talking about what i'm talking about because just two months away, we are just two months away from the killing of osama bin laden. hopefully, if not the ending of al-qaeda, then at least the debilitating. they have a new leader. but i would hope that his passing away is both literal and symbolic. and at the same time, it's such an exciting time to be in because 2011 has been an incredibly momentous year for the exact opposite of the philosophy that osama bin laden was espousing, and that is pacifism and nonviolence. if i was speaking with you even late last year about pacifism in the muslim world, i would have to explain myself. perhaps some of you would remember the green movement in

iran two years ago. that did get some coverage. not as much as it should have, perhaps, but at least some coverage. but no other example that i have listed in my book ranging from very recent instances -- pakistan, 2007, 2008 -- [inaudible] movement with musharraf, maldives, a small island nation longest-serving dictator in asia was withdrawn. back a few years ago the balkans, further back muslim ghandians. none of these are known in the west. now when i speak with people and tell them about mass peaceful protests in the muslim world, i don't get sort of quizzical faces and blank looks because the last 6-8 months have been truly momentous. i think it may be the most momentous year in modern arab

history and one of the most, perhaps, in global history at least since world war ii. december 2008 one man, and i'll get back to him and talk about him, knew zazi lit himself as an act of to test. that act has set off this remarkable chain of events where there is almost not a single country untouched by mass protest from 40 rock coa automatic way to the border of pakistan/iran. so it's the arab world plus iran, almost all these countries have been shaken by protests. in two countries protesters have managed to get success, tunisia and egypt. and as i said, i'll talk more about this as we go on. in other countries i know it's still in flux, but i advise people not to be impatient, you know, let's wait and i'm confident in at least a couple of other countries -- bahrain,

for example, syria maybe -- that there will be positive change. it's still 6-8 months. let's remember it took gandhi 30-plus years after he came back to india. it took martin luther king a decade. i think in this day and age we have sort of very limited attention spans, and we should give people more time, you know? it's not even been a year. so we should definitely be patient. so the theme of my book is, you know, islam and nonviolence, islam and pacifism. i caution people and tell them because they say what about al-qaeda, what about, you know, the taliban? i am not saying there is an absence of violence in islam. what i'm saying is, please, do not be reducktive. what i'm saying is there is, at the same time, a strand of nonviolence, a strand of pacifism that can be seized upon, that can be used by people interested in engaging in mass peaceful protest.

and they have. as i show in the book again and again. back in the 1940s, 1930s, again, in the 1970s, again in the 1980s and '90s, and now, of course, the green movement and tunisia, egypt and other countries in the raich world. arab world. what's happening in the middle east has changed people's minds about the arab world and about islam. but unfortunately, not enough. and that's the reason i think that, if i may be a bit less humble, that the book is needed. a recent statistic was the one that distressed me the most. march 2011, so after tunisia and egypt started, a poll asked americans what they think of american-muslims. nearly three in ten, 28%, said that americans are sympathetic to al-qaeda. that, to me, is a very

distressing number. i mean, you can argue that, you know, american muslims are more devout, maybe fundamentalist if you want to use a loaded word. but to say that three out of ten americans think that american muslims are sympathetic to possibly the worst terrorist organization in the world is something that is, indeed, quite appalling, i think, and something that needs to be challenged and refuted. and the sad thing is that this is based on complete ignorance. and the evidence, a recent, a 2010 september pew forum survey finds that only half of americans know that the koran with is the holy book of muslims. now, that is quite astounding that you would form an opinion in the absence of this central sort of knowledge that, i mean, there's nothing more central to islam that be the co-- than the

koran, and to not know that and yet have such strong opinions about muslims is quite remarkable to me. also one-third -- maybe less astounding given the lack of geographical information that a lot of people have in this country -- but one-third of american, only one-third knew that indonesia was, in the most populace muslim country. now, there is a problem there beyond ignorance of indonesia. what happens is, and this is, i think, a reason for the misperceptions about islam, that americans generally feel that, um, islam is middle eastern islam. and middle eastern islam is saudi islam. not knowing that arab muslims are just between one-fourth and one-fifth of the total, that the largest concentration of muslims are in south asia; pakistan,

india, bangladesh and in indonesia. so i think there is a problem there. so i would like to start with the sources of islam, then give a bit of the history of islam and then move on from there quickly to actual instances of -- which is what i think is important. otherwise, we can keep on quoting and counterquoting from the koran, we can keep on sort of, you know, citing and counterciting from history. what instead matter is the the practice of a certain religion. and if i may say so, and i'm not making a comparison, so in the practice today islam was much more forgiving than the christianity of texas governor rick perry. really. i mean, so it was the state of texas which executed, you know, strummond, and it refused to forgive him in spite of the pleas of one of the victims. so it's practice that matters, i think, in the end. so i would like to start with

the source of the koran. and the source, main source, of course, is the holy book of the koran. the koran. the holy book of of islam, the koran. and, you know, we can keep on, as i said, citing and counterciting from the koran, but there's enough in there as you see in this which can be easily seized upon and used by anyone who wishes to follow the path of tolerance, nonviolence, reconciliation. the most famous quote in the koran dealing with compulsion and religion is the one, the second from the bottom, there is no come in the name of relegal conclusion. right and wrong have become extinct. there are several other quotes like this in the koran.

there is, for example, fight in the way of god those who fight you, but do not begin hostilities. god does not like the aggressor. then there is god forbid you to fight those who fight not your faith and who do not drive you out. be just and kind to them for god loves the just. so, you know, there are enough passages that i came around in the koran itself that sort of enjoin people to be nice, to be kind and not only toward muslims, but toward all people. and, of course, there is the concept of the people of the book in the koran which includes christians and jews, and muslims also sort of, you know, they believe in the old testament. so there is this interfaith notion in islam. now, whether muslims follow it in their daily practice depends, of course, from individual to individual.

there is a renowned comparative scholar, karen armstrong, and i love the quote that she has. the koran is adamantly o opposed to the use of force, it recognizes the ability of all rightly-tided religion and praises all the prophets of the past. she's an ex-nun. she's written a book on the islam prophet muhammad, i mean, just incredible stuff basically. there's a lot of, you know, mercy and forbearance are two qualities that are so commonly mention inside the koran -- mentioned in the koran. for example, the unity of mankind is something else that's mentioned very commonly. the koran again and again asks the prophet muhammad not to exert pressure in the name of religion. it urges muslims not to refuse

any proposes for -- proposals for peace. one can go on and on. and as i said, if you read my book, i cite instances again and again. and as these scholars, you know, a whole range. there's karen armstrong, there's an american professor who deals with this notion that a lot of people have that the later verses of the koran abrogate con logically, abrogate the earlier ones which are much more peaceful. and he says look, you know, that's just an interpretation, you know? the it's professor firestone. koran translator -- [inaudible] all of these, basically, you know, point out that the koran can be interpret inside a very peaceful, very pugilistic way. from there we go the life and conduct of the prophet muhammad. here he is very unique because

unlike jesus, more like i guess, you know, the hindu dellmy gods he was a fighter and and a religious leader at the same time. so here, you know, that leads to a certain construction in the minds of westerners that he was so much more belligerent and warlike than jesus or the buddha. but if we with examine his life, a lot of scholars have pointed out a number of very salient contexts. number one, for 30 long years -- i was quite a young man. now i'm middle-aged. it's quite a long span of time. a decade and a half almost. thirty years ago he was in mecca, and, you know, there were humiliations and atrocities inflicted upon him and his followers, and for that entire span of time he refused to fight

back. and the wonderful quotations from that time period where, you know, he sort of asking god to sort of, you know, to give him strength and to forgive his tormenters. for 13 long years he was in mecca which is why the mecca verses are so much more devoutly peaceful. and then after 13 years or so there was this one central act that's hallowed in islam, and that's the nonviolent act which is he left with his follow beers from mecca to medina. and that's one of the most hallowed acts in the history of islam. then it gets more complicated. once he was in medina, he did raze an army and defend -- raise an army and defend himself. now, however, scholars point out that his conduct was defensive, defensive. and, you know, for example,

karen armstrong, there is an indian scholar who says it's clear in every case involving violence, the prophet muhammad acted under provocation. his general attitude was that of reconciliation. he did not approve of aggression because the koran has warned the faithful that god does not love the aggressive. so in every instance pretty much violence was forced upon him. when he returned to mecca, he sort of forgave everybody there in spite of the fact they were fighting him, and, you know, generally he signed a number of peace treaties, and he was very adept at bringing about reconciliation between those -- [inaudible] on the saudi peninsula. so to think of him as a warlike figure is a misconception, and i'll get to the sufi muslims.

they think of him as a central figure of peace and love. and their conception is even more -- [inaudible] so we, basically, now turn from the koran and the prophet muhammad to the history of islam which has been problemtized in the west. and zachary cannibal, wonderful book out called "peace be upon you." he says that scholars have long ago disposed of the image of islam being spread by the sword, but that has not altered popular imagination. the west came into conflict with islam -- europe, of course, famously. in a way it hasn't with any other world religion. and because of these stereotypes of islam came up which persist to date. and if you look at the actual, at the actual history of islam,

it's quite different. and, um, for example, let us take south asia which is where i'm from. now, even in south asia there's this misconception that islam was spread by the sword. not so. the largest concentration of muslims in the south asia is in bangladesh, current bangladesh and indian bengal. sufi states went about spreading the religion as the forests were being cleared. another concentration is in current-day pakistan, pakistan punjab. again, let's come to a state in the southwest of india which is about 25% muslims, the highest number of muslims in the india proper. again, it was arab traders who came there and spread islam. quite remarkable this level of human development it has. way ahead of any other part of india. let's go to indonesia.

sufi saints. africa, it was mainly merchants. now let's get to the arab world. over there it was trickier, i must admit. so the arabs did conquer a large portion of the middle east in a remarkable span of time. there is no denying that. however, scholars point out that the empires they defeated were already completely decaying. it was the byzantine empire and the persian empire. these were the main ones they defeated. they were already from decaying from within, atrophying, it was very easy for the arabs to defeat them. and this may sound totally weird, but in egypt, for example, many of the bishops actually collaborate with the the invaders against their own overlords they were so dissatisfied. so there was that going on also. most importantly, and i think this is something that should really be pointed out, it took a

couple of centuries for these places to become muslim. it was a long, slow process. it wasn't that these guys came, said you have to convert, otherwise you die. in fact, a lot of these arab invaders because of snobbishness about they being from where they were did not actually care for converting the indigenous populations. so, for example, richard eaton says -- and this is what helped make the process of conversion so smooth -- shared animal sacrifice and ritual slaughter with jews, shared circumcision with jews and christians, institutionalized charities, their monthlong fast followed by a festival, they practiced ritual absolutions, individual prayer which resemiened that of

christians. all these continuities helped make the convergence so much smoother. and, actually, it took two centuries or three centuries for these places to become muslim. from the eighth to ninth to tenth century rather than this way which is what would have happened if you are taught that, you know, it happened the way that a lot of people think it happened. so the arab empire was established after the arabs, of course, the major empire in the area was the ottoman empire. and here's a french philosopher paying tribute to the ottomans saying the ottoman emperor permits every man to live according to the conscious, the jews, christians, greeks and mohamedans. and the empire was remarkably tolerant until the very end. and, of course, the slaughter of the armenians at the end is a huge black mark. that, however, was much more of

an expression of turkish nationalism rather than islamic fundamentalism. happened at the very end. it was a terrible, terrible episode in history, but that should not negate the centuries preceding when, for example, greece which is still completely christian, cypress which is mostly christian and, you know, even in other places the notion was not to sort of convert people just by hook or by crook. and, as i said, in a lot of these places instead of at the point of a sword, islam was spread by sufi saints, and the sufi muslims are really interesting. in the west's imagination, again, they are either thought of as extraneous to islam or as some far out hippie cult almost which has no resonance within islam at all. and both these ideas are off the mark. they're not extraneous to islam.

the central figure for the sufis is, again, muhammad who embodies and exemplifies love and peace. they are very much within islam. as for the impact in islam, this is tricky. now, formally people don't identify themselves as sunni muslims. however, sufi practices are so prevalent, go to any place in the indian subcontinent, go to indonesia. you have, for example, these during georgias -- jirgas of sufi saints. i mean, the intersession of saints is very much from sufi islam. and these are two early sufi saints -- a woman, no less, who bayically had women in her -- basically had women in her

circle. nearly any of the society at the time in integrating women. and the sufi idea of peace, as i say, is rooted in the concept of the unity of all mankind. not just all muslims, but all mankind. so peace and the unity of all mankind is something that they have preached forever. you know, their notion of love and heart is so expansive that according to some sufis, you know, the heart has, you know, five, six chambers, each chamber is representing something. it is really complex dealing with the heart which is really interesting actually. not all sufis have been peaceful, there have been militant sufis, but generally the record of sufis, for example in south asia, has been remarkably positive. ..

>> a behalf of pluralism, they still remember in south asia. all of them, his sister, and daughter was also sufi andney those are the only two sufis he probably tolerated. and his sister was the only one in the kingdom who could answer him back. and not pay for it with her

life. so but there's many examples from muslim history. you know, it would show us the influenceship of sufiism but general. but they're still incredibly revered by their mother. and a phone number of times to a shrine, and another one was born in the west and is known as an incredible sufi mystic and a slightly different background and i'll deal with it later. yes. >> if you desire with god, make peace and allah to muslim and to

the bramans and this was just remarkable. sufi saints made highly enduring contributions to the evolution and development of asia, legacy of civilization. through the method of love, compassion, tolerance and service to mankind by building bridges to harmony and to various ethnic groups. this is -- i just got these photographs which is a great publication dealing with south asia. it's better known today for this insurgency going on in the indian portion of kashmir. it was spread by the sufi saints

and the main thing is known among hindu and it's known as the word for saint. and these are the people who spread islam in kashmir. amazingly remarkable. we belong to the same parents why the difference together we worship god we came to the world like partners and we should share our joys and sorrows together. this is not in honor of the kashmiri and also the festival of spring and kashmiris offering prayer there. and to day they still have resonance there today. sufi means love.

in the place for love of all which the sufis have taught they insist we should hate all those who disagree with us. i think they're the greatest enemies of faith of a kashmiri student is saying this. sufi still has resonance. some of the islam groups have tried to implement a more strict muslim faith and the kashmiris have pushed back and we have gone to a sect and here i'm delving into controversial territory. the reason i would like to deal with them is that they gave the most pacifist interpretations of the koran of any muslims possible. why are they controversial? because it's said that the koran completely eschews violence. and there's no need for violence at all. the reason they said this to us

he said that he was the second coming of christ. and that has made him very controversial among other muslims. however, in india, in indonesia, and bangladesh they are still welcomed as muslims and pakistan they are not. they do not exist that i have found in my research to be advisable but they do exist in southeast asia. they claim to be in the millions. they have a presence here in the u.s. historically among african-americans and among current day immigrants. there are places of worship and as i said, you know, they are the most widely pacifist possible and the reason they become controversial as i said he declared himself to be the second coming of christ which

made them heretical in the eyes of muslims but i have a couple of pages that i think is important and it's important for people to know about them, whether or not you agree or disagree with the doctrine. now my salvation friends can't answer this question. this is only open to people open to south asia. how many people recognize my south asian friends they may not even recognize one. may or may not be able to. can people recognize any of the other people -- any of the four? the first one is from pakistan. he teaches at queens college. i had the pleasure to actually interview him last year. completely, his music, his

philosophy, his life completely impacted with sufiism and mentions sufi saints in his music, incredible person. lives between india and pakistan and goes to the west again and again. and i have a place available online in the magazine. really an interesting person. he divides his time between the pakistan and the u.s. huge following in the diaspora. says, why sufiism attracts me is that it is a search for knowledge seeking who you are. the whole message is knowing yourself and knowing your god and you see with the heart and correct for god not for humanity comes automatically. and the one at the bottom, he died in the late '90s and,

again, is a person, sufiism had a huge impact on him and his music. the person above him -- the person between him and the other, can anyone recognize? best known in the west for slum dog. incredible person again. really interesting life story, converted to islam himself. father was of hindu background and again, somebody who is really drawn to sufiism he said in sufiism there's no distinction between hinduism and islam you look in your heart and you have the light of the prophet. and he should love can transcend all these issues. the gentleman in the african

address is another giant of global music from senegal. again, somebody who's heavily influenced by sufism has done a sufi album called egypt which won a grammy for me is a religion of peace and tolerance and i like my life's work better and my work and what islam means to me. you should listen to his stuff too. so absolutely amazing. so sufism can be seen by these incredibly famous musicians from south asia and africa. still has amazing resonance. and i don't want to sort of give short shrift to islam and something i have to deal with which is jihad. now, what is jihad? jihad is actually not bored and

does not not murder. the literal translation is struggle. and the greatest struggle is within yourself. the lesser struggle is the struggle to defend islam. i've shown in my book you can get into the details. i don't know if you know it goes really deep into this now that even for defense of islam there are really clear rules deline e delineated and needless to say in the context of taliban and islam has been in contradiction. but jihad is an offensive doctrine that's something of course that's something that's debatable and i go down as do a lot of muslim scholars that's meant to be a defensive doctrine add the very best to be waged in

the defense of islam as a last resort with clear rules laid down. and as scholar says about jihad and says about terrorism, she says that, it is difficult to find support for the use of irregular or terrorist tactics in the -- and resonance turning the resolution and because of its effect of life and god has exclusive rights in believable the piety of the believer. i can move on in the book but there's a chapter in my book i don't know if you know gloss over it or completely skip over the aspect of islamic because i thought that had to be dealt with because that's the aspect of islam that comes up often enough if not very often in the discourse of all islam in the west.

we move on to real life examples. can anyone not from south asia but identify the people in this photograph? so there is nero and that's the prime minister walking. and there's the deputy prime minister sitting in that rickshaw and there is the man with the long nose, a long back-like nose walking behind him. perhaps no one knows who he is which is a tragedy. no, here people know the other person i'm sure. i don't have to be from south asia. remarkable photo, isn't it? just a remarkable remarkable photo. one can almost see an aura around the other man. it's just an amazing picture. he's so much at peace with himself. who he is, though? baja kahn an amazing movement. it came out of a fairy actually. the same birth that gave birth

to the taliban gave bam to khan and 100,000 pastuns who were dedicated to nonviolence, resist all violence and gender rights and social equity, just an amazing, amazing example that seems almost made up but it wasn't. and the second thing was that he took all of the inspiration from islam and if gandhi was the most successful practitioner of nonviolence at the personal level, khan did it at the social level. it's remarkable for a number of reasons. the british crackdown in the pastuns that they never did on gandhi followers and the rest of india. number 1, it was easy because there was hardly any media in the pastun region and they were so full that they never could believe go in for the

nonviolence so they killed them. it's just absolutely remarkable the amount of violence they did upon them. 300 people killed in a single day, for example, and a number of instances like this. you know, people just been gunned down? pastuns come in lifting up those bodies and coming to the front lines again, not fighting back and not engaging in violence. just remarkable examples and khan said that, i cite a chapter and words from the koran to show the great emphasis that islam has laid on peace. i also show to somebody who is having a debate with the greatest to go through the islamic history were known for their forbearance and self-restraint than for the fierceness. the reply rendered him speechless. even after the prophet exit, his opponents did not leave him in peace. this is khan. they send him to annihilate him.

he tried to avoid a clash and that's it's only he talked he took up arms in self-defense. that man is considered to be worthy of the highest praise who leads a good life, keeps close to god and does not deliver a blow on evil for evil. if a plan is slapped in the face and forget the injury he is dangerous. he's a great and good man worthy of the highest praise. remarkable person, remarkable life, remarkable example. why is he not at all known in the west? a number of reasons. unlike gandhi, he left behind very little in terms of his writings. there's just one autobiography he dictated in the 1960s. and he was a pastun nationalist. a nonviolent pastun nationalist but a pastun nationalists nevertheless. came into kick the with the pakistani government. had to go to jail again.

had to spend 15 years under the british and 15 years of jail under the pakistan government. and in pakistan he has been erased from history. in india he's been belittled. his nickname is the frontier gandhi. so an idea is that he took his inspiration from the mahatma, not so. he again said and again. it's from the prophet mohammad and from the prophet mohammad. it is not a new creed. it's followed 1400 years ago but the prophet all the time was in mecca and a member of his group, the certificate infants of god told an interviewer we do not follow nonviolence because gadhafii told us and we followed it because of islam the prophet said violence does not solve anything and that's an remarkable person. there's a new documentary than none other than the great media person. his daughter. she contacted me eight or nine

years when she started the document my. she made the movie. it's not even available for purchase the last time i checked. i would urge everybody to see it. i'll try to get a copy of myself. there are biographies of him of gandhi's son. he died in 1988 at a age of 98 and there's a remarkable movement in the northwest region of pakistan. another chapter dedicated to people like this, again, not in the west but very much we'll have more in west asia. a -- thelogin of it.

he became india's first education minister and stayed in that post and to date he's rever revered as a major figure in the independence movement. another remarkable person educationist. somebody who again drew inspiration from nonviolence, religious pluralism, religious tolerance. a progressive educationist, not just an educationist. became a president of india. now, i must clarify here that the presidency in india is -- has much less powers than the presidency in the united states but still he did become the president of india, which shows the respect that he was held in by indians and is less well-known today than the people still remember him because he became the president.

several other people who were with gandhi, another person who was a foot soldier so to speak in the indian peace movement and became president for india in the 1970s. gandhi himself was influenced, believe it or not by islam. he cited mohammad the prophet mohammad as a role model. his attempts to build an ideal society of india and had shiite islams as role models and i found a member of parliament citing gandhi and husin and i don't know how this iraqi parliament member knew about this but a remarkable story. from the 1930s and 40s, we come to the 1990s and much more recent examples. does anyone know -- well, it's written out that gandhi is a balkan but does anyone know about him at all? the balkans.

he was in kosovo, albania; built a movement that lasted for almost a decade. a parallel society of civil disobedien disobedience, mass disobedience, mass serbs. let me explain kosovo its wars is part of serbia slash yugoslavia. it's so complimented. so yugoslavia was part of serbia and milosevic cracked down very heavily in response, they took over and the kosovo albanians built this remarkable parallel society of schools, colleges, hospitals and very pleuralisic and was named the mother teresa association worked together with

christians and defied milosevic for a better part of a decade. unfortunately, the west ignored him. also, unfortunately, he did not achieve the full potential of what such a campaign should have, been able to achieve. was too passive. was not active enough in referring out and trying to convince his opponents and in the end it became stasis. and as a result a guerrilla movement went up and nato intervened and partly because of hindu is semi independent. it's recognized by a number of employees but still i think it is a remarkable movement. it was needed at the time and it's spared kosovo the scale of bloodshed at least that other countries in the balkans such as bosnia here the figures were as bad as they were but in the low thousands rather than the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. and even his opponents grudgingly gave him and said,

look, he was the right person at the right time. of all the leaders of former yugoslavia but have the game, it achieved a lot. it saved lives. and kept us in our homes. so, you know, even here he achieved a lot, became a president of semi independent kosovo died in 2006 and is still revered in kosovo as somebody who has independence. this is an example that you all may know of, two years ago, mahmoud ahmadinejad tried to steal the election in twine and the green movement came out to protest out in the street. a remarkable movement. a lot of attention in the west. remarkable to us and for my book also because here was an example of islam being used both by the regime in a horribly duplicative

way. they adopted islam, the green movement, green being the color of islam, it's not a coincidence and they use islam in just an absolutely incredible way to resist autocracy of mahmoud ahmadinejad. and still not successful as you may know but very keep up with. i had a very pessimistic ending of my chapter that seemed to be done with. not at all. and we'll get to that in a moment in a bit. but taking inspiration from those who came back early this year tens of thousands came out in the streets to show that they still have life and are able to function. iraq had a small nonviolent resistance movement to the u.s. occupation comprised of women's groups, labor groups, all these groups coming together. was able to persevere in spite of attacks by both sides.

the u.s. occupation forces as well as militants. there have been early instance of early middle east history. i cite these multiple instances in my book. the most remarkable example which is still ongoing, though, is in israel-palestine. this is the most about that. the first indefatia started in the 1980s which means uprising or shaking off and went on through the early '90s. nearly completely a nonviolent movement. not a single israeli soldier was cold. stone-throwing. what a stone-throwing. is stone-throwing violent? nonviolent? i mean, it's hard to know but it's in that sort of gray area so there was stone-throwing and

sadly some violence done to people, palestinian, collaborating or seemed to be collaborating with the occupation forces. to the israelis it was almost nonviolent. it shook israeli society in a way that the plo hadn't been able to before. islam again here was used in a number of ways most were used to help people and inspire people and they used a range of tactics from tax resistance, boycotts, hunger strikes, formed a number of committees. women were prominent, workers were prominent. in the end, the israelis have to give in. a divided israeli society so sharply they were forced to come to the negotiating table, the first oslo accord you all may remember in 93 that photo of clinton looking on beaming while

rabin and others were shaking hands was the first inde-fatah. and what happened is that the accords did not fulfill their objective. israel-palestine as we all know is still in a state of contention. the second one was, unfortunately, was much more violent. and there was a lot of suicide bombings, however even in this, there has been a strand that has been remarkably nonviolent against the israeli -- israel-palestine separation which has been purposely, if i may say so, to encroach on palestinian land again and again. as a result, in a number of places in palestine, villages believe -- they have been so remarkably nonviolent, some

stone-throwing but so nonviolent that jimmy carter, desmond tutu, gandhi, the son had some success. some of the land has been given back. they are still struggling in some of the places. there's an oscar-winning documentary out which deals with the village of badros. it's not oscar-nominated but oscar winning. again, not my friends from south asia can but anyone recognize these two. they're not as well-known. so that's chaudry, the current

chief justice of pakistan. and the other is a lawyer in pakistan. why is it important? because they just had a remarkable achievement are overthrowing long ensconce dictator of musharraf and coming out on the streets again and twice they managed to achieve victory. so in a couple of years ago in the mid-2000, musharraf basically decided to get rid of chaudry that he was asking too many questions and he thought he would go after him and his legitimacy. basically he decided, hey, you're out. and in response this remarkable lawyers' movement came up which went out in the streets in the face of immense repression in a

single day in karachi. what musharraf did was let his allies run, run rough shot and kill these people. there was a bomb blast and there was a state of emergency declared in the end these guys proved to be too much for him and, you know, through a chain of events, musharraf had to leave and he's now in england enjoying comfortable exile. a major part of this, there was a confluence of factors that led to his leaving office but do not please tell me that these guys have the major role to play. if the guy chaudry is the head of pakistan there's another of reinstating him because he was afraid that chaudry would come after him on corruption charges and they came out on the streets a few years ago and forced him to back down and chaudry is

currently the chief justice of pakistan so here you have one of the largest muslim countries in the world, remarkable, a very recent case of people protest against a dictator. this is less known. moldives. a pretty indian ocean island nation. tourist destination. if i don't have a picture and if i would have every picture i would have to have a rogue gallery of the dictators. he ruled for 20 years the longest dictator in asia and even the middle east. i don't think there was anybody from the middle east who ruled that long. ruled for 2008. until he was ousted by a large

democratic movement in the country. using islam, using nonviolent creative process and as a result they had the first democratic government in their history and new president is mohammed nasheed and a remarkable licensing, he -- let me read this to you. june, 1990, after 18 months in solitary confinement, a political prisoner was finally sentenced to a jail term of 3.5 years. by the time that the sentence was handed down, the damage caused by the regular torture he had endured had become overwhelming. his backbone was damaged. he was suffering from internal bleeding. in november, 2008, standing before the chief justice of maldives was that activist ready to be sworn in as the president

of maldives. has been the president for two, two and a half years. and nashhed coming to power in the most forgiving and expansive way said islam teaches you there is no future if you hate. when asked how his government would teach, the embittered vengeful cannot become agents of change and asked what he did with the prison system he said don't forget, i was a prisoner myself. tortured, prisoner of the year and comes to power just a remarkable story. not as a known in the west because maldives is a smallest country but still overwhelming muslim nation in which this happen and some of the things that deserve to be known in the west. [inaudible] >> you're right. absolutely. that's why he's on the forefront

of the fight against global warming. we come then to where we are now which is basically the middle east. just a remarkable saga of what's been happening. as i said, two dictators have been ousted. in tunisia and in egypt the egyptian case has been well covered and certainly the most populist has a place in american imagination and the pyramids but egypt is something that's caught the public's eye in the united states also, perhaps not enough. but still there has been some change in the discourse about the middle east. i would urge people not to be

pessimistic. i would argue how fundamentalists are going to take over. it's still something that in the making, in the works, but i myself am quite optimistic there are elections scheduled in both these countries. we should watch. and the fundamentalists have not taken over i know it's a different region of the world, of course, but the same thing was said about indonesia in '98. it's a flawed country. all democracies no democracy in the world are perfect but well on its way to becoming a full-fledged democracy i would urge people to have patience for egypt, and indonesia and i'm optimistic about syria, bahrain and so many other countries that all of this is happening. i think many of them will change. there's not -- almost not a single country that has been not

affected. i mean, it's truly a remarkable, remarkable confluence of events since the end of 2008, start of 2011 for people who think that islam has no rule in this, islam is such -- so deeply rooted in people's consciousness. there's a good article in a publication that says, look, from social solidarity to suffering to forbearance. so group activities. i mean, islam has an impact of people on these countries when they do any of these activities. it's there in the subconscious and to say this thing, you know, we're not necessarily explicitly -- they're not citing the koran or, you know, islamic sources, to say that there's an absence of muslim influence in deeply muslim societies is not showing what's happening out there. i'm very confident, very optimistic we'll see a

completely changed middle east within a couple of years. you know, everybody is calling for democracy. it's just been remarkable in the last 6 to 8 months. and all of this started with one person and so much in sort of a contrast what we had the image of islam, image of muslim and suicide bombing inflicting the pain just upon himself. only -- only on himself as an acting of protest against the social and economic conditions he was in and he could never imagine the resonance he would have. i think of zazai would have lived a fruit and vegetable

vendor changed egypt, tunisia and the middle east forever. you know, regardless of what happens, there's a both i would like to end with. what is to give light? what is to give light must endure, burning a man once said. another man became the match stick that set a nation aflame. but fire and its appetite cannot be calculated like freedom. injustice and desperation make men combustible like dry wood. about words lose meaning and entire people their voice, so they can no longer scream death and life become the same from tunisia, yemen light from a burning man proves catching and those with nothing to lose are offered but bodies fan the embers of their hopes into a blazen dream. it's just remarkable what one

person did. of course there were so many factors what's been happening in the middle east but i'm so happy that my book, as i say, has become so topical and i'd like to sort of update this book and do it in the paperback events what's happening in the middle east and so many instances you know this book is a primer for nonviolence in muslim societies and in the middle east and i would urge you all to take a look at my book. thank you so much. [applause] >> any -- any questions? >> i think in my observation, any religion, if you take it too seriously you're going to have problems and extremists. i think that's true with islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism,

mormons but i think it's universal to all these religions if you just follow them too literally and too seriously at the expense of everything else, that's when you're going to have the problems. >> yes, if i may cite my own religion, the gita, the holy book was a discourse on battlefields. now if you follow that literally it literally is a call for war or a justification for war. what's happened is gandhi and all these progressive sort of reformers reinterpreted it allegorically which i think a lot of indians, i think, today sort of follow the gita not literally but you can do it that way and use it as a justification for war so you're absolutely right. that any religion taken too literally and follow too rigidly can lead to problems. absolutely. >> i really appreciated your presentation tonight. >> oh, thank you. >> i must say i'm not totally

optimistic about some of the same things you are you mentioned sufism and you didn't mention wahhabism which is a great influence in egypt and you didn't mention the word fatwa and i tried to read solomon rushdie but couldn't get through it all just yet. [laughter] >> yeah. wahhabi islam, my book deals with -- it's not a book on islam per se, but wahhabi islam i agree. you know, i've written in the past about the saudi -- the official saudi interpretation which i have problems with. and being sort of just endowed with so much oil money they've been able to spread that into islam in a number of countries in south asia.

and in egypt it has a presence how much of a presence of a population and how much of a whole i guess we'll know in the months and years to come. when there are democratic elections. fatwa is basically just an edict actually. and islam being interestingly democratic in that sense. any mullah or sort of imam can issue a fatwa which is just an edict on anything. basically it can be any social or political sort of aspect and doesn't necessarily have to deal with peace or violence or whatsoever. it can be fairly trivial things, too. so but, no, i'm not dealing with the notion of fatwa but certainly the notion of jihad. yes. >> i think that every western religion seems to have problems between their progressives maybe and their orthodox. >> yes. >> and in islam, what do you

think are the road blocks between those who practice an orthodox version of islam versus those who practice some of the more passivic movements or a more progressive side? >> well, i mentioned in my previous answer one is official backing as the more regressive ways of islam and certainly the most obvious example would be, you know, wahhabi islam and the saudi backing of that. it's spread into other countries and where it's come in to conflict is indonesia and other places. that would be a marijuana roadblock and obstacle, not the major roadblock not just saudi but in other countries too, that the official sort of discourse in islam being not necessarily conducive to a pacifist -- >> a -- >> a promotion for tolerance,

yes. >> another translation i've heard for the word islam is submission. i don't know enough about arabic to know what the various implications are -- what is the exact translation of the word -- >> and here i'm not -- from islam, it means submission, deliverance of speech and either submission to peace or peace through the submission to the will of god, you know, again there's various interpretations, you know, and there is no good answer to that. i wish i knew. i don't think even scholars completely agree on single interpretation of what the word islam literally means. you can interpret it to mean peace as gandhi did.

>> i think sufism which is a lot of what you seem to be referring to in islam. >> yes. >> as a very special part of the muslim tradition. and a very mystical one. and i believe from my study of different religions that the mystical branches of most religions are such as you described sufism, peace-loving, very heartful. and pretty universal. they believe mostly on the same sorts of things. and i know that in my own tradition that the misticks are a very small percentage -- >> so, okay, so formally very few. however, the practices of a lot

of muslims are imbued and informed by sufi islam. in south asia and southeast asia, the balkans, turkey, sufism has a large presence not africa. i would say with perhaps the single exception of the persian gulf region where i've not found it saudi arabia, uae, et cetera, there is a strong presence. and a lot of the practices such as these shrines believing in these saints so one would think and hope that with the saints their beliefs would also come in the ideal notion of islam, too, for many muslims it does and many it doesn't. formally very few muslims define themselves as muslims almost groovy, hippiest type culture. yes. hello. >> i'm an american muslim.

i was born in monroe, wisconsin, and i became in 1995 and i can't help be encouraged by people as yourself and what you're trying to do because being a muslim for 16 years, prior to september 11 i've always had a concern that something might happen because of some of the elements in the community as many communities such as the kkk were christians and the tigers in southeast asia so that something might happen that would change the view of some or many americans and i'm very interested in the statistics and some of the views that americans have about poach who aren't muslim americans and i think -- i just want to thank you again for your efforts and what you've done for the muslim community as a non-muslim. i think more of us need to come

together, whether we're atheists or christian or hindu or whatever faith, whatever belief. i think we can meet on common goals and try to establish something, work towards goals we may not believe have come together on foundational beliefs and practices but i think there's things that we can come together and one of those things -- i read a quote once about words make worlds. and one of the things that i read in "usa today" article about general petraeus who has been assigned the director of the cia. he continued to use throughout his term the word islamic terrorism. there's no such thing as terrorism islamists as you've pointed out and i thought that was unfortunate when i read that that he continued to use that throughout his term. and one of the things you used -- the term you used was fundamentalism and i think -- i

think that's kind of a tricky word when it comes to islam or any religion because somebody might look at me and say, wow, he's pretty strict or fundamental. whereas, radical -- probably a radical person like the kkk or the tigers or al-qaeda or some of the terrorists individuals or groups would probably be more appropriate. i don't know what you think of that in the terminology and how it affects people and thinking? >> thanks for your compliment. as i mentioned in my book, i've been to college in the early part of my school at the capital of the largest state in india and actually our neighborhood was kind of a microcosm. we had hindu neighbors on one side, christian neighbors on the other and just across the path was a muslim landlord. and he would send us all these

nice dishes during ramadan which probably did the trick. if you live in india it would be hard to get this a image of him. so, no you're right about terminology. in fact, for example, hindus say that the hindu can't be fundamentalists because there's no fundamentalists in hinduism and maybe i'm using the words in the terms loosely without being in a pretension that i perhaps should be more careful. yeah. [inaudible] >> excuse me. are you aware that there's a group somewhere -- i attended a talk in wisconsin where a muslim imam christian race had a jewish

rabbi and each spoke their religions. >> i'm quite aware of the group. in fact, one of the people of who's participating in that locally is phil haslinger if i may say so, a friend of mine. he is half time a journalist and half time a pastor with the church and he's wonderful in holding all these interfaiths sort of initiatives and dialogs locally. and so i'm quite aware. in fact, i think he wrote about this very recently in his column in his religion affairs column. >> and the united church of christ. >> i'm sorry. >> any other questions? well, thank you all for coming. [applause] >> booktv has covered over 9,000 nonfiction authors and books since 1989 when it all began

with "booknotes." c-span's original hour-long author interview program. you can watch these programs online at booktv.org. >>

>> interested in american history, watch american history television on c-span3. every weekend, 48 hours of people and events that help document the american story. visit c-span.org/history for more information. >> and booktv is in new york city at the javits center for bookexpo america which is the annual publishers convention held every year here in new york city. we are previewing some of the fall 2011 books and we are at the chicago review press stand with cynthia sherry who is the publisher of the chicago review press. first of all, tell us what your organization is. >> we're a publisher mostly nonfiction books. we've been in business since 1973. and we publish about 60 titles a year. on a variety of topics. african-american interests. we have several different imprints and one of them does african-american interest, progressive politics, feminism.

that's lawrence hill books and chicago review books does an eclectic mix of nonfiction including popular science, travel, history. >> are you private or associated with a university? >> no we're independently owned, independently minded, yes. >> well, let's look at some of these coming-up books and let's start with andrew tabler. >> yeah, andrew tabler is a journalist -- he's one of the only western journalists in syria at the time. and he worked both with the syrian -- reported with the syrian government of bashar assad's government and also was a western journalist and he started an english language magazine there called syria today. and he's the foremost expert on syria and he's been interviewed on a number of television shows here in the u.s. >> cynthia sherry, since events are happening in syria right now is this book being updated on a regular basis?

>> it's really about the -- it's very current right now. it's a very current topic and it's not being updated so much as it's really about what led up to what's happening there today. >> and right next to it you have an author jamanna haddad. >> yeah, jamanna is a poet. she's a journalist. she's an editor. she lives in beirut and she founded the first erotic magazine in the middle east called jasad which means body and she's a feminist and this is her memoir and it's really exciting. she's coming to the united states in september and is going to tour here. and andrew lives in the washington, d.c., and he lives in the united states. >> women heroes of world war ii. >> women's heroes of world war ii is a look at all the women from all over europe who fought the nazis basically so it's this notion that they were dangerous situations. they did more than just house jews. they actually, you know, were

spies. and really were active participants in the resistance to hitler. and it's for young adults. this book is for young adults. >> and next to that is define rebels. >> this is really looking at american christian activists for social and so i think it's a lot of times it's thought that the -- that the right wing has a sort of handle on christianity but this is really looking at the -- at those great liberals who have gone out and fought the good fight. >> now, cynthia sherry you have a books for civil war sixteen thennial. tell us about this. >> this is a book we published a number of years ago called civil war for kids. it's one of our bestselling titles and it's part of our four-kid series which are really sophisticated books for kids ages 12 and up. and we have an abraham lincoln for kids and the underground railroad. >> and what's your website? >> the website is www.chicagoreviewpress.com. >> cynthia sherry is the

publisher of chicago review press. >> we asked what are you reading this summer. here's what you had to say. ♪ >> send us a tweet at booktv using hash tag summer reading to let us know what you plan on reading this summer. you can also email