without, in a sense, combating the their ideology. now on the other hand, if the mafia was imbedded in widespread corruption in the united states and broader criminal activity and was, you had corruption and look at cartels in mexico, you not only have to battle them but battle their ideas. i think this administration argues it will battle the bad guys but not bad he will their ideas. with battling the ideas is messy. you have to get into explaining well, what's the difference between islamist and somebody that believes in the religion and you know, is this person, whatever and what's the difference between legitimate free speech and not legitimate free speech? and that's bad. and i will give this administration credit. if you read the countering violent extremism i call it a report because i don't really think it is a strategy, there is some very good stuff in there because what they talk in that

document, and i think rightly so, is about giving communities tools not just to defend themselves against terrorist attacks but defend the healthiness of their civil society. how do you have an open debate about issues, right? how do you root out extremist ideas and how do you come pat extremist ideas without an fbi agent but how to private citizens combat extremist ideas? hose are good tools and important things to have. in a sense they acknowledge what they say publicly we can't fight a war of ideas isn't true because you can't counter violent extremism without combating an ideology. i think fundamentally gets to the root of the problem in this administration which is, many of the things that it knows are efficacious aren't politically correct for them. and therefore they either have to not do them because they're not politically correct for them or they have to do them but then pretend they're not doing them because they can't be seen to be doing them because they don't like them.

[laughter] we had, we're going to, is there a question here? okay. sir, you get the last question. it is very last question because we have end promptly at noon. has to be a short question. >> am media. on page one of your counterterrorism strategy report, under heading why the president's strategy will fail, you state, islamist beliefs are rooted in culture that the president's strategy fails to appreciate. while western conceptions of honor rest on occidental notions of virtuous acts and beliefs, islamist mind set equates honor with power. do you believe muslims of all types, particularly those not terrorists basically agree with that assessment? >> i think that is cultural comment. and i think it is true. there are different conceptions of honor in the world. our conception of honor essentially emerged from the mid evil -- medieval notion of honor and chivalry.

it is rooted in values and practices of value and attitude and behavior. value, if you're a good person you're an honorable person. there are alternate conceptions of honor in the world which is based on power. if you got the most sheep you're the most honorable person. if people fear you you're the most honorable person. that is perfectly legitimate, it is a, that's a perfectly acceptable an throw poe logical explanation of differing views of honor and different people in the world have different views. this is one of the fundamental problems of warfare, right? the enemy get as vote and the men any enemy thinks like the enemy thinks, right. if you don't view how they appreciate the world and what they're trying to do, you basically wind up in the end fighting yourself. we are out of time. you've been your a brilliant copartners in this effort and we thank you all so much for coming and all these materials are online at

heritage.org. join me in thanking our panelists for a great presentation. [applause] . .

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♪ ♪ >> now the house homeland security committee on radicalization in the american muslim community. this is the second of three hearings on the topic. it focuses on islam prisons, current and former officials from new york testify. the hearings have attracted criticism, including from muslim congressman, keith, who said they target the american muslim community for acts of islamic

terrorists. this hearing is two and a half hours. >> morning. the committee of homeland security will come to order. the committee is meeting today to hear testimony on the radicalization of muslim muslim-americans in the united states prison system. signs, as well as verbal outbursts are violations of rules of the house. the chair wishes to thank our guests for the cooperation, maintaining order and proper decorum. as far as proper decorum, let me welcome a new member, miss hochul of new york. thank you for your interest in this issue. also at this time, make

unanimous consent requests, making a statement admitted into the record. without objection, so order. as ranking member. >> yes, mr. chairman, i'd also like to welcome our new member from new york who is on the right side of the committee. but i'd also like to enter into the record letters regarding our hearing, i'd also like to enter an article entitled prison islam and age of sacred terror. >> so ordered. goo good morning. today we hold the second in the series of hearings on radicalization in the muslim-american community. specifically on the important issue of the threat of islamic radicalization in the u.s. prisons. i welcome the distinguished panel of witnesses, they are first hand insights into the

problem, and we appreciate the logicalness to share their experiences, both our witnesses and your witnesses, ranking member. the radicalization in u.s. prisons is not now. in fact, this is the third congressional hearing in years. the hearing is necessary because the danger remains real and present. especially because of al qaeda's announced intention to intensify it's hacks within the united states. a number of cases since september 11th have involved terrorists who converted to islam, radicalized islam in the american prisons, then attempted to launch terror strikes in the u.s. upon the release from custody. they have also carried out terrorists attacks overseas. just last year, the relations committee released a report that said three u.s. citizens in

prison have traveled possibility to train. they have left the u.s. prison, and joined anwr awlaki, and generally acknowledged to be the most dangerous affiliate. the 27-year-old somali-american from minneapolis who have been indicted in federal court as fighting as part of al shabaab, according to court records, he was a gang member convicted for a number of crimes. upon being released from prison where he was radicalized, he began attending the center in minneapolis and soon was on his way to fight for somalia. the prison radicalization is a serious threat and the prisons are fertile ground for recruitment. last week the homeland security announced that secretary

napolitano are collaborating to mitigate the strategy for radicalization and recruitment in prisons. the reality of the radicalization threat was demonstrated again last month when michael finnton, who was radicalized in illinois state prison pleaded guilty to illinois to attempted use of weapons of mass destruction. he was planning to assassinate the colleague and destroy the federal court and office building in springfield, illinois. tomorrow in new york, james who was radical sized is scheduled to be sentenced for the leading role in the conspiracy to attack troop transports at the air national guard base and to attack a synagogue and jewish community center in new york city. they are not alone. today we'll hear about kevin james, a radicalized former nation who formed a jihaddy

group and hatched a terror plot from behind bars at california's fulsome prison. spreading from the prison to the local mosque and attacking a u.s. military recruiting center on the 9/11 anniversary, and jewish temple. jose padilla, known as the dirty plot, converted in a florida jail. he led to a fellow inmate to a mosque. he eventually moved to the middle east and joined al qaeda. he was sent back to the u.s. in 2002 to attack the homeland with a bomb made of radioactive material and ignore gas in apartment buildings to bring them down. prison radicalization is not unique in the united states. last week the british secretary recognized the threat of radicalization and unvailed the new counterradicallization strategy to put recruitment

behind bars. just as homegrown al qaeda terrorists attack in britain, including the 2005 subway attacks in london, the 2006 liquid explosives plot to blow up american planes flying out of britain, and the 2007 car bomb attack on the airport were emulated several years later with the attempted new york subway bombings in september of 2009, the fort hood murders in november of 2009, and the attempted time square bombing in 2010, we must assume the same with prison radicalization. i have repeatedly said the overwhelm majority of muslim-americans are outstanding americans. yet this was much by much mindless hysteria along with their allies and "the new york times". counting islamic radicalization should not be a partisan issue.

i am here to work with the obama administration. it was the president's own deputy of national security advisor, dennis, who said that three months ago that quote al qaeda is increasingly attempting to recruit and radicalize people to terrorism here in the united states. the threat is real and it is rising. al qaeda is trying to convince muslim americans to reject their country and their fellow americans. that was the president's deputy of national security advisory. as i mention, the department of homeland security is formlating a plan to stop radicalization, terrorists radicalization, and recruitment in american prisoner. i ask the democratic members to join with the obama administration and acknowledging the reality and severity of these threats and work with them here in the committee. we look forward and i thank the witnesses for being here today. i look forward to the testimony and i recognize the distinguished ranking member from mississippi, mrs. thompson. >> thank you very much, mr.

chairman. i welcome our panel of witnesses today. as you know the united states has the highest incarceration rate in the world. more than 2.3 million people are locked up in america. approximately 1/3 of these prisoners claim some form of religious affiliation. islam is the fastest growing religion among prisoners. about 80% of those who join the religion while in prison turn to islam. multiple studies show that the typical inmate who converted to islam is poor, black, upset about racism, and not particularly interested in the middle east politics. in preparation for that hearing, my staff spoke with the representatives from the bureau of prisons, the state prison officials from across the country. i regret that none of them are here to testimony today. the bureau of prison and state officials informed us that they

routinely require religion staff, including rabbis and priests to under go rigorous vetting, including verify indication of religious credentials, background checks, and personal interviews. they told us that any religion book and recorded message used must be screened and their guards monitor the services. when we asked about radicalization by outside influences, they told us that prisoners do not have internet access, and all nonlegal mail is opened, read, and sometimes censored. judging from these accounts, it could seem that opportunities for radicalization are few. and the evidence bears that out. according to the congressional research service of the 43 violent attacked carried out by muslims since 9/11, there were only two clear cases of radicalized release prisoners plotting a terrorists act.

judging from this evidence, i think it's safe to conclude that the risk of terrorism originating from muslim converts in u.s. prisons is small. limiting this committee's oversight of radicalization to one religious -- religion ignores threats posed by violent extremist of all stripes. and there are other threats to be concerned about. according to the national gang intelligence center, a study on january 2009 approximately 147,000 documented gang members are incarcerated in federal, state, and local jails. and operational gangs within these prisons pose a security threat not only within prisons walls, but also in our communities. the ability of leaders of these criminal enterprises to control and direct operations outside of prisons should not be ignored.

further, the violent right wing ideology of many of these gangs must be discussed. let us not forget that james byrd was dragged to his death on a back road in texas by right wing gang members who were radicalized in jail. clearly the willingness to use violence, under mine order, and commit mayhem is not dependent on religious belief of political ideology. in may, the committee held a hearing assessing the threat to the nation's security following the death of osama bin laden. at that hearing, we learned about terrorists aspirations to launch attacks to the united states. earlier this month, adam, an american-born spokesman for al qaeda released the video called on muslim to commit violent acts against america by taking

advantage of the gun show loophole. adam told his viewers in this country you can buy a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check at most local gun shows. and he is correct. in march, the gao reported that almost 250 people on the terror watch list were cleared to purchase firearms last year alone. in that hearing, the expert testimony under scored that our greatest threat may be from lone wolves and solitary actors. adam's video has given these potential actorring encouragement, advise, and a rule of map. mr. chairman, as we consider threatses to the nation's security, let us focus on known security gaps. we are not endangered by people who are already locked up. in a risk, we must look at the evidence. we are placed at risk by gangs who use prisons as a base of

criminal operations. we are placed at risk by lone wolves with the gun show loophole. i look forward to work, you on your legislation to close the known security gap. working together. we can reduce the risk to our nation from dangerous people roaming the streets of america. i yield back. >> i thank the ranking member for his statement. now we will hear from the witnesses. i would ask each witness to try to keep their opening statement to five minutes. and then they will be followed by a series of questions from the members of the panel. our first witness this morning is patrick dunleavy, retired with the new york department of corrections. during his service, mr. dunleavy investigated the terrorists recruitment, and author of the book "the soil of jihad: prisons connections" he's long in distinguished record prior to the act in activities

encountering terrorism, working under cover, and doing an outstanding job in the new york state criminal justice system. with that, i recognize mr. dunleavy for five minutes. >> sorry about that. chairman king, ranking member thompson, distinguished members of the committee, it's a privilege to appear today before you to discuss the threat of radicalization in u.s. prisons. the prison population is vulnerable by the same agents responsible for radicalizing americans outside of the prison walls. despite appearances, prison walls are force. outside influences access those on the inside and inmates reach from the inside out. individuals and groups that subscribe to radical islamic ideology have made sustained efforts to target inmates for indoctrination.

a sunni group established a goal to establish a mosque in every prison. two of the first converts in the new york state were roy and jahmell. jahmell is the spiritual movement, even though he's currently serving a life sentence for shooting two police officers. and ayman, who died in 2009 with the fbi seeking to arrest him. he himself did time in prison prior to his conversion to this form of islam. as this ideology moved through the correctional system in the '70s and '80s, it gained an increasingly number of converts. eventually the sunni ideology was a dominant force in the prison mosque. in the late '80s and '90s, there was a influx of foreign born in the middle east, some of them having committed violent acts, individuals that had

killed, bombed, or stolen money in the name of allah. they had connections with hezbollah and hamas. after they were arrested, they walked into the prison mosque and hailed as heros. they were inspired by the muslim inmates and by the muslim chaplain. some of them were given a position by the chaplain that gave them access to a phone that is informs monitored by security personnel. which allowed them to make calls throughout the united states and overseas. one of them, al saad, while serving a sentence in a correctional felt conspired to bomb. the jihad had come to america, one the architects was an inmate. in 1999, several law enforcement agencies received information

regarding radical activity in the prison system, specifically detailing recruitment effort. they learned of a jordannian born inmate that identified himself as a follower of osama bin laden and said he was interested in recruiting inmates in the u.s. prison. he stated his group intended to get inmates trained in the middle east after the release and then have them return to the u.s. to have them participate in jihad. not surprisingly, the jordannian born's job was a chaplain's clerk. the exposure may begin in prison, however, it often matures and deepens after the release. 2009, four ex-inmates were arrested for plotting to bomb synagogues in new york and shoot down military aircraft. they did not know each other while they were incarcerated, but met after the release while attending a local mosque connected to a prison ministry.

in 2003, the founder gave an interview. the founder at the time had retired from the new york state department of corrections where he was a director of ministerial services. he went on to call the hijacker of 9/11 heros, without justice there would be warfare, it can come to this country too. the ideal are african-americans that accept islam in prison. as a result, they launched an investigation. in the report, they said there was a need for verifiable body that would certify islamic clergy prior to hiring. to this date, no organization has been appointed to fill that role, nor has there been any formal determination as to how or any process would take or

what the standards would be. the result of that inaction brings forth two cases. a new york city corrections member who was hired in 2007 was arrested in 2010 for smuggling into the manhattan house. he asked for his job back. he was formally known as paul and had spent 14 years in new york state prison for murder. how was he hired? new york corrections was aware of the criminal history when they did the background and they said although a felony conviction would disqualify, that rule did not apply when hiring chaplains. the over civil service requirement was a certification of endorsement, and the city relied on new york. that organize is connected withs muslim alliance of new york america who list among their

leadership abdella. and also al wahaddi was providing support to a suspected organization in iraq. the inmates clerk at the time was a convicted islamic terrorists. jihadi literature finds it's way into prison even though it's prohibited. anything can be gotten in prison. >> try to wrap it up please. >> anything can be gotten in prison. including a pda or smartphone, or magazine in any of the prisons. and i'll just close my comments at that point. thank you very much for allowing me to speak. >> thank you very much, mr. dunleavy. i hope the ranking member realized i'm not the only one that has an accent like that.

did you understand what he was saying? >> not much. >> now we have a transplant. the next witness, kevin smith that was raised in my district but had the good sense to move away. currently serving as the deputy district attorney for san bernardino county in california. he's a former assistance for the central district of california where he prosecuted kevin james who were convicted in one the most significant terror plots. i will say the highlight came earlier than that when he attended the university. with that, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much. chairman king, ranking member thompson, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. by a way of background, i have worked in law enforcement as a local and federal prosecutor since 1996. from 2000 to 2007 i served as a assistance united states

attorney with the united states department of justice, working in the united states attorney office for the central district of california. in july of 2005, i became involved as the lead prosecutor in the investigation and prosecution of a group of individuals who are involved in a seditious conspiracy to wage a war of terrorism against the united states government by murdering military personnel in southern california. these individuals were members of a group known as gif. which was created within the california department of corrections prison system. today i intend to discuss the jis case and the conspiracy which was engaged in by jis's founder and leader, kevin james, his chief operative, and gregory patterson and hemad.

let me begin by discussing kevin james and jis. in 1997, kevin james founded jis while serving a prison sentence in the california correction system. in fact, he remained in prison throughout the conspiracy and the resulting investigation. james preached that it was the duty of members to target for violent attack any enemies of islam or infidels. he identified them as the u.s. government and jewish and nonjewish supporters of israel. james recruited fellow prison inmates to join jis. but he also sought to establish a cell or group of jis members to wage war against the infidels outside of the prison walls. kevin james also created and aseminated the protocol. in the jis protocol, muslims

must be allowed to use sharia. the jis protocol described jihad as the only true anti-terrorist action in a defensive battle against the aggression of imposters, led by zionism. kevin james also wrote a document called notoriety move. james wrote on missions that were to be done, the document would be left behind and if 187, which is the california penal code section for murder were involved, a video tape would be sent with a jis member reciting the document. a convert to islam met kevin james in late 2004, after washington was transferred to new fulsome prison in california.

at new fulsome, james recruited washington into jis. washington swore an oath of loyalty. he was paroled in late 2004 and had the ability to carry out a violent operation outside of the prison walls. james tasked washington with a document known as blueprint 2005. he required washington to recruit five special operations members, preferably felony free and train them in covert operations. acquire two pistols with silencers, and appoint a special operations member, and to learn to make bombs from a distance. armed with the instructions from james, washington got quickly to work. he went to a mosque in englewood, california with where he met gregory patterson and hamad. they recruited both patterson and hamad into jis. they swore a oath of loyalty to

jis. they now had three members and began to select targets for their attack. ultimately deciding on military recruitment in california and jewish temple. they documented their selections of targets in a document known as the modes of attack. the cell had access to a shotgun, but also to fund their jihad and had purchase an additional firearm, they engaged in a number of gas station robberies, a series of over ten in the southern california area. ultimately, during the investigation, or during the conspiracy, patterson dropped his cell phone. local law enforcement was ability to initiate an investigation based on that dropped cell phone. federal law enforcement, fbi, u.s. attorneys office got involved at that time, and we were ultimately ability to

successfully indict ken james, washington and hamad. it is my opinion that the jis case is an excellent example of the ability of federal and local law enforcement to work together to secure our homeland. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. smith. our next witness is michael downing who is the deputy chief and commander officer of the los angeles police department's counterterrorism and special operations bureau. chief downing was appointed in 1982. and in may of last year, he was elected as president of the leadership in counterterrorism alumni. at the outset, let me also express the regrets of the committee of one the l.a.p.d.

officers who was killed in afghanistan in march of this year, reserve officer who was serving in afghanistan. we look forward to your testimony. we thank you for flying from the west coast to be with us today. >> thank you, good morning. sorry. thank you for the opportunity to discuss the los angeles police department's view and strategy of those -- this most important phenomenon relating to the involving threat of muslim-american radicalization in the united states prison. much has been written about the topic over the last five or six years. just as we've seen a large serge in homegrown violent extremist, targeting innocent civilians with violence, or plotting against the united states, we've also seen a surge in both converts and radicalization toward violent acts. fortunately, this still remains a phenomenon of low volume. however, the radicalization of even a small fraction of this

population holds high consequence for americans and innocent people around the world. with the largest incarceration rate, largest prison population of any country in the world, and prisoner by the very nature are at risk and susceptible to recruitment by extremist groups because the isolation, violent tendencies, and cultural discontent. now los angeles is known for it's outreach in engagement with muslim communities and the strategy to over lay community policing on top of communities that are isolated, feel oppressed, or not integrated into the social fab rake -- fabric of society. the muslim community are the greatest strength as a counterterrorism strategy. but in the context, we recognize that islam expressions itself differently in los angeles than it does in the united kingdom, europe, san diego, or minnesota

or new york. there's no one organization or institute that speaks on behalf of the uma. it's a subject which brings great concern. it's generally known that the majority of prison converts assimilate back into what they were doing prior to going to prison. however, it is the exception cases and these -- to that rule that have and will continue to strike fear in the hearts of america. it's a great concern that up to three dozen african-american travel to yemen to train with al qaeda. we talked about the cases. the jis, jose padilla, richard reed, michael fenton, all examples of prison converts plotting to commit acts of violence against innocent people. there are several on going cases who's story are yet to be told. the common denominator is conversion to islam in prison.

if islam expressed itself in the california prison system as it expresses itself in the los angeles region, we'd be talking about the strength and value in terms of behavior and value-based living. however, this is not the case. and it's not the case because of the manner in which many prison populations are exposed to islam. carrying the disguise of dysfunction, danger, and exemployeation. instead of providing a balanced, peaceful, contemporary perspective of one the great and peaceful religions, we are left with a hijacked, cut and pace version known to the counterterrorism visitors. this has been allowed to propagate through the three dimensions of people, materials, and associations. as a matter of practice, the association recommends one per 500 inmates. we are seeing four, five, and

sometimes six times that ratio. the qualification are different. different standards. some are allowed into a correctional institution, others renews entry. the type of materials effective policies and practices are designed to create understanding of what faith-based staffers may utilize to facilitate. there's radical materials inside the prison systems. anwar awlaki's material is inside the prison system. the koran english version with the chapters entitled the call to jihad, holing -- holly -- holy fighting and a lost cause. the milestones along the road is in the prison system, meetings are not properly monitor because of the ratios of chaplains and prison guards to these things. aligning people, purpose, and

strategy, and leaning forward is a solution to mitigate this risk. and in the policing word, the efforts to reduce crime, mitigate risk, and teach communities how to build crime resistance neighbors focus around three areas. high risk people, high risk places, and high risk activity. this model can be translated into the prison system. furthermore, it needs to be looked at from a whole of government, whole of community approach, using volunteers and leadership. would the united states will proud of what converts are learning about islam in prison. i would say in some cases they should be shocked and dismayed. one of my greatest concerns is the issue of threats. we are beginning to see convergence in the areas of gangs, narcotic cartels, organized crime, terrorism, and

trafficking. just as the community can become incubators, so too with prisons. if left unchecked, prisons can and do become incubators of radicalization. in 2005, after the london bombings, prior to that, after 30 years the british said we defeated the ira. they are ready to not fund terrorism, move on to other things, and the attack occurred. and they realized they had the threat. americans at that time said we're okay. we have good immigration policies, we don't have this threat. two years later, we saw a huge ramp up in the threat. as we begin to uncover rocks, we see more and more of the problem. we haven't uncovered the right type of rocks in the prison system. we have the fusion centers, tlo infrastructure in the prison systems, we have suspicious activity and reporting, and today just in my seven county

area that the fusion center sits on, we are getting 15-20 suspicious activity reports and seven prisons a month that evolve into three to four open cases per year. that's only seven out of 33 correctional institutions, correctional facilities in the state of california. we do have a problem, prisons are communities at risk. thank you. >> it's a profession of sociology,ty -- he worked in the same field. which i read regarding prison organization and violence, and you are now recognized for the testimony. >> good morning. i thank the committee for this very important matter.

my testimony is that prisons have not served as a major source of jihad radicalization. three sets support the conclusion. first u.s. prisons now confine 1.6 million people. each year 730,000 inmates are released. second, from 9/11 through the first half of 2011, 178 muslim americans have committed acts of terrorism, or prosecutorred for terrorism-related offenses. third for 12 of the 178 cases, there are some evidence for radicalization behind bars. putting the facts together, if prisons were a major cause of jihadist radicalization, we could expect to see a lot of it. but we don't.

why not? we have seven inhibitors. first, over the last 30 years, u.s. prisons have been able to restore order and improve inmate safety. for example, prison riots which were one common have all be disappeared. the homicide rate in prisons has fallen by 90%. a by-product of the restoration of order is that the appeal of radicalization is reduced. second, correctional leadership as consciously as successfully infusioned the mission of observing science of radicalization into organizational practices. rather than waiting for the facilities to be penetrated by radicalizing groups,

correctional leaders have fashioned, staffs, and energized the effort to defeat radical ization. third increasingly in recent years correctional personnel coordinate and share information with external law enforcement. fourth, inmates cannot communicate freely to potentially radicalize groups on the outside. the internet is unavailable. mail is inspected and censored. fifth, a large body of evidence have thrown that terrorists tend to come from better educated advantaged background, u.s. prisons tend to have low education, and come from poor the profiles o criminals and terrorists are different.

sixth, a surprising finding that has come out of my research is that there's a modest level. it is a case that inmates are hyper concerned with their own interest. still it's some level of loyalty to the facility. it makes inmates hostile environment for jihad radicalization. finally they have improved the screening and supervision of clergy and religious volunteers. in some, if prisons were a major cause of terrorism, we could see a large proportion of jihad terrorists linked to prison. that's not the case. still a small number of prisoners have been radicalized behind bars and attempted

terrorists activities. but as long as law enforcement continues to be alert and work the collaboratively with each other, the threat of terrorists activity in and from prisons will continue to be diminished. >> thank you for your testimony. mr. dunleavy, you talk about the lack of proper vetting for chaplains in the state prison. i know our staff has visited the maximum security prisons and we have been impressed by steps taking at the federal level. 90% of prisoners are in state and local prisons. you gave the example of the prisoner arrested and convicted

last year. he had been certified as a chaplain by the islamic leadership council, located outside of the district. and i know it's somewhat well, because the leaders are in the office. you had an organization such as there, certifying the chaplain, yet he was certified to be a chaplain. has that situation improved at all? >> again, i don't -- i don't think so. because there's no standard. one the recommendations after the investigation in 2004 was that there would be to be a certified body, an ecclesiastic al body. >> he was still serving? >> yes. city and standards were relying on the own standards. sometimes there was no communication between the

corrections department and police department with respect to organizations or individuals that were then hired. >> professor useem seemed to say he does not believe the threat is that significant from the prisons. yet chief downing, you say the subject which brings great concern. it's an important phenomenon. relating to the evolving threat of muslim-american radicalization in prisons and prisons are communities at risk. as a person who is on the ground, who has to deal with the issue ever day, do you consider it to be serious? >> a serious issue that i don't think we yet know the scope of the problem because we haven't had the collection mechanisms in place to understand the death of the problem. in l.a. region with seven counties and seven correctional facilities we get 15-20 reports a month. they may not all be terrorists reports, but they do develop into open cases. which is of great concern.

we are looking for it now. we've educated the prison guards and the institutions on what to look for and how to report it. >> i'm not asking to divulge any facts of ongoing investigations, in the written statements there are several who's story yet to be told. the conversion to the radical form of islam while in prison. are you concerned about ongoing cases relating to islamic cases? >> indeed we are. we have on going cases that involve convert prison radicals that are out in the community now. that story will be told when the case is prosecutorred. >> mr. smith in the kevin james case seems to me to be a perfect con influence and almost an assembly line of radicalization in the prison, going in the post prison to recruit and radicalize more and attempting to carry out

terrorists plots. do you say what makes it unique as a religion radical, as opposed to a skin head or nazi? >> i think the difference is the person committed to jihad in the united states of prison and one been in the prison system. in the state of california, you can't be in the prison system unless you've committed a felony. those committed to jihad in prison have already stepped outside. they have already crossed that line. often with violent backs and experience with weapons. washington being a perfect example of that. you have an individual who is committed to jihad and already has stepped out and has acted outside what we consider the norms of society in conducting criminal behavior. so the jihadist mentality is basically over laid on an

individual who knows how to handle weapons, who knows how to access weapons, who knows how to communicate even in the prison system and outside the prison system. so when that individual then steps out of the prison as has happened to washington who paroled after being radicalized and being a member, becoming a member of jis, you are dealing with a very, very dangerous situation. because this is an individual who already has operated on the criminal side of the law and is very committed to carrying out violent acts. and washington is a perfect example, because within six months time, he had recruited two additional cell members. they had acquired weapons, they were committing armed gas station robberies to fun the jihad, and collecting targets. within a six month period of time essentially. which is very, very fast. and shows the convergence of the criminal sophistication as well as commitment to jihad. >> thank you, mr. smith.

ranking member is recognized. >> thank you very much. mr. dunleavy and mr. downing, you both have talked about issues around prisons and the fact that so much of what's happening is because of lack of resources. to do certain things. are you saying that in the state of new york the reason chaplains are not vetted like in the prison system and the federal system is a matter of resources? >> no. i don't believe that's the case. >> why aren't chaplains vetted? >> that's a good question. and i think that question has been asked since the report in 2004. what are the standards, who will establish the standards, is there an islamic organization be it the islamic -- >> no, no.

not just. chaplains period. so my point is if you knew in 2004 that a problem existed where chaplains can be certified without the bureau of prisons in new york having some standards, here we are eight years later and we still don't. do you know why the state of new york doesn't have any standards for chaplains? >> well, again, i have to go back to the fact that the igs report did not say all chaplain. it sadist -- it said islamic chaplains. >> is there a reason why the islamic chaplains are not vetted? >> i think because there was a comment -- >> i'm just trying to get to the point that. is there a reason why new york

doesn't vet islamic chaplains? do you know why? >> i think new york does. new york state department of corrections does. i think the need for standardization between new york state, new york city, county, you also have federal prisons within new york state, you need national standards for the vetting. not just -- >> so the weakness for whatever the issue is is something those units of government have created by not coordinating the standards. >> agreeing on the standards, that's correct. >> thank you. >> we all agree there are bad people in prison. mr. smith, if you'll comment about someone getting out of prison, robbing, trying to promote a terrorists cause, we understand that. but there are a lot of people who get out of prison and who do bad things. for a lot of reasons.

i think if we look at it from that perspective, we all agree. whatever it is that's causing people to do bad, we need to fix it. and if there's a terrorists nexus to it, and we can close the loophole, we should. but if we look so narrow at just that, we have a real challenge. mr. downing, if your work in los angeles area, those counties that you work. who are the most dangerous people in prison? >> i would say, well, gang members certainly are dangerous. >> gang members. describe the gang members to the committee? >> well, you know, los angeles is probably the gang capitol of the united states, 60,000 in the city of los angeles, county of los angeles rather. in 400 gangs.

they are violent, territorial, they have a culture that's developed that is exclusive, and they are vulnerable. and they are recruiters. >> so in your experience, those really bad people are -- do those gangs continue to operate when they go to prison? >> very much so. >> so basically we have a lot of gang activity that's an on going enterprise in a lot of prisons? primarily state prisons, am i correct? >> that's correct. >> so the issue is is if we are looking at radicalization are you saying that those radicals, bad people, are gang members primarily in the percentages versus what we are looking at here today? >> the structure is interesting. when you go into a prison, you

are in the crypt side, blood side, liema side, or the involving muslim side which is getting more attention, but not enough. and many of the gang members are moving over to that side. as you know, kevin james is a rolling 30. he recruited a rolling 60. who on the outside were vicious enemiesing but on the inside became aligned with an ideology. >> i appreciate your indulgence. and we understand the involving threat. but the threat as of this day in terms of who the most dangerous people that we have incarcerated are many of those individuals who were affiliated with gangs based on what you said. brotherhood, airian nation, those individuals that operate

their activity out of the prisons, am i correct? >> yes, you are. >> thank you. >> i recognize the gentleman from california and the former attorney general of california mr. lungren. >> thank you. i must say the political correctness in the room is outstanding. as someone who's district includes the new fulsome prison where the plot was hatched to commit the crimes in southern california, and as someone who represented the areas at one time where those crimes were carried out, to ignore what that is is to be astounding. let me ask the experts here that we have on gangs and terror. how many of the street gangs in either new york or california have an ideology which is dedicated to the structure of the united states?

mr. dunleavy? >> none. >> mr. smith? >> none. >> mr. downing? >> none that i know of. : >> i think the point that needs to be made between a radicalized jihadists and gamecocks member

or prison gang member like a mexican mafia gang member, criminal is interested in enriching themselves personally with their criminal activity. it is a selfish motivation. that is their aim and their general goal. when you contrast that with an individual like lavar washington there that if interested in criminal activity other than a means to carry out violent jihad, to carry out their war of terrorism against the united states and there lies the difference and the danger. >> isn't the aim of a terrorist attack to produce the greatest amount of terror in the community? to try to do the greatest amount of destruction both physical and psychological as opposed to gaining economic benefit?

>> absolutely correct. one of the accepted tenets of terrorism is this need to create and exploit fear in the population and that is what a terrorist seeks to do by targeting innocent people as we targeted in the j a f case. >> some questions, mr dunleavy, why we don't that certain chaplains. isn't that the crux of the problem? we have a religion which is an accepted noble religion. one of the great religions of the world that is being subjected to a radicalization by a certain percentage of its advocates and there is no standard to make a judgment with respect to someone who is teaching or preaching in a prison that may be of a radical version purses a non radical

version? is that the crux of the problem? how do we as a government try to some house if through that? >> getting back to the question, who is the most dangerous inmates in the prison? my answer is the inmate who you know little or nothing about. when you have an inmate of middle eastern descent who may have been wahbi there is a lack of connection as to the actual religion of islam. what is the difference between a sunni, sufi, shia. there is a need to learn. if you don't know you can't establish standards. that is the weakness that we have not come further since the 2004 report. >> five years ago head of the prison system in california came to me and asked to have a

meeting with the chairman to talk about his concern about the radicalization of muslim prisoners in the california prison system. subsequent to that we had a hearing. it was a year later when the democrats assumed the majority and congresswoman jane harman conducted a subcommittee hearing in california to look at the kevin james case. i might note for the record there was no objection on the majority side and no suggestion that we were somehow involved in an improper pursuit of the truth there or that we were somehow wrongly confined ourselves to that particular case in not dealing with other cases in the united states. i salute congresswoman harman for her efforts on that. i wish we would see it reflected now, the same concern and bipartisan support.

i thank the chairman. >> the gentlelady from texas, jackson lee for five minute. >> i think it chairman and i do thank the ranking member for both the student presentations as they gave their opening statements. i would like to acknowledge a colleague, congressman keith ellison his statement was submitted into the record and very briefly let me define what my political correctness is. it happens to be this document. the constitution. i won't read it because i know everyone probably knows it by heart. john marshall said a constitution intended to and dorr for ages to come and consequently to be adapted for various crises of human affairs. he was one of a number of individuals who tried to interpret why we needed this

document because without having a stated vision of what america would become he knew we would be facing a number of crises and we face that today. i want to thank each of the witnesses for their service and critical analysis that is extremely important. my anger with this process is the topic lends itself to a myriad of analyses. i want to site two individuals. we had in a previous hearing the parent of carlos bledsoe, abdul hakeem mohammed was his muslim name. he had altercations with traffic offenses and nothing we would applaud that he was not a hardened criminal. he had an overstay and wound up in a yemen jail and became radicalized. or maybe we should talk about

vernon merrill who the chairman listed for us. thank him for that. he writes a letter and says prisons are fertile recruiting ground for radical muslims and they are introduced to the subject by louis farrakhan. he was arrested for bombing an abortion clinic as a christian militant. matt point here today, information is welcome. condemnation is not. are you familiar with the christian militant? >> yes. >> can one say they might want to undermine this country because right now constitutionally the right for women to choose is a constitutional right. people disagree with it but here is an individual attempting to undermine protections given to women.

would you suggest that that might be compared to trying to undermine this country? that is a possibility? >> anyone that goes about killing in the name of god is an ideologue. lana talk about salaam, there is the world of islam and then the world of the infidel and there's no middle ground. >> i understand that. we look to the information, we should include an analysis of how christian militants or others might bring down the country. we have to look broadly, do we not? >> i don't know that christian militants have foreign country backing. >> i don't think that is the issue. the issue is whether their intent is to undermine the laws of this nation and the think it is clear that is the case. your distinction is not

answering the question. let me go to mr. useem. you indicate we are more astute. i want to ask this about the nation of islam. do you know what the nation of islam is? do you view them as promoting in the current 20 first century the undermining of this nation? >> no. >> tell us what the nation of islam is. >> press your microphone. >> nation of islam is the religious group that practices the muslim religion. >> they recruit predominately in the black community and -- >> not entirely. >> are there underpinnings to your knowledge about improving lives, trying to straighten out? is that your assessment or do you know that? >> that is correct. >> that is the basic underpinning whether or not you agree or disagree. >> can i add point? very quickly. prisons -- >> let me ask this question.

can you defend your position about the intensity of oversight in prisons today that would bring a massive radicalization going on in our prisons? can you defend your position? would you defend it now? that there is extensive oversight in prisons today. they are less violent if you will, riots. answer the question. >> answer the question. >> prisons are much safer now. more orderly and more secure. violence is down. you walk into a maximum-security prison now and is orderly and safe. not all but most. that has promoted the ability of officials to maintain and look

closely at the radicalization problem. >> can i speak with the j. i. s case? >> the gentle lady's time is expired. the gentleman from minnesota is recognized. >> appreciate the time. thank the witnesses for coming in discussing a very important issue. i would like to start, mr downing if you could tell me about the radicalization process within prison themselves. can you comment on that and how someone becomes radicalize? >> it is not too far from howard gained --gang member goes through the process whether there is an orientation and identification and indoctrination process and the type of radicalization that goes through. charismatic leaders and materials and places of

association that contribute to that. we have evidence where we have seen a little convergence with the gains. we have a higher african-american prison population being converted and we have seen this come out onto the streets in terms of comfort boscs in different communities as well. >> thank you for that. mr. dunleavy? >> the process of radicalization, particularly islamic radicalization in the prison system is very selective. it is a filtering process. it does not occur with a lot of yelling jihad. the facilitator is in the system have the unique ability of

profiling. they are able to spot an individual who goes in and the of the first time and they can tell -- they know he has propensity for violence because he has committed violence. they know he is by himself so he wants a sense of purpose. they do this profiling within the first day they meet him and then they try to convert him and then moved him when he is going to be released u.s. -- an islamic mosque they have recommended and then to continue to move into an islamic center in virginia or florida and from there to overseas travel for continued studies. it is a process that starts off and in the county jail, moves through the state system and through the parole. >> doing some research, we found due to the insistence of the justice department the bureau of

prisons is forced to play louis farrakhan's nation of islam videos as sermons or chapel services 4 muslim prisoners. is that correct or incorrect? >> i am not aware of that. >> about sharia law. radical islam, would you or agree or disagree that radical islam would place sharia law as the primary lot for their religion? would you agree or disagree? >> absolutely. >> that is a central tenet to their agenda. >> yes. that is what some of the material is that is in the prison system. videos and lectures are about the creation of a worldwide muslim domination in sharia law. >> that was explicit in the kevin james case. >> can you also comment that it perceives the constitution of

the united states? >> in the committed islamic jihadists absolutely does. there's only one document. >> i agree. the reality is for committed jihadists sharia law is god's law and the only law they have to follow. everything else is man-made law and that is not something they feel has any authority over them and their actions. >> i would agree but i would offer this. in our our region gauge the with muslim communities we recognize and muslim communities recognize that the law of the land is the constitution and there may be sharia principles in their community that they look at similar to jewish law but the rule of law is the constitution of the united states. >> i would add the muslim community in the united states

is well educated and they do accept the constitution as the law of the land. >> specifically radical islam you would agree would -- surely a la would supersede the constitution in radical islam? >> that is a distinction that needs to be made. what i am talking about is from a radical jihadists mentality. not mainstream muslims. >> you have to put violent radical. >> time has expired. the gentleman from michigan, hansen clarke. i didn't see that. mr. cuellar is recognized for five minute and an extra 30 seconds. >> thank you. when i was -- i tried the budget for the prison system. north texas has a good sized

prison system. i have gone through prison systems and spend a lot of time trying to see what conditions there are and in texas or anywhere else there are things that come in to play. rates that we look at -- all of you are familiar with it. when you go in -- we are not only talking about prisons at a state level but look at the federal level and at the federal level we are looking at this particular issue but when you look and the majority of prisoners that we have, the state prisons compared to prison -- federal. how do we address the issues you want to bring in or issue of criminal gangs or the mexican mafia or whatever it might be? how do we address the issues when most of the prisoners are in prisons where we have to deal

with budget cuts and issues like that? how do we address this issue? and not forget about the criminal gangs and most of them will stay here. they have to come back and get part of our society. how we address this issue? i know this is important to some folks but i am looking at the big picture. how we address this with the conditions we are facing now? whoever wants to take that. >> first thing you have to do is set a national standard. all prisons as you said have the same circumstances. we have the resources in place. you have law enforcement agencies and correctional agencies and post relief parole and probation agencies that need to work together but there has to be a standardization.

>> five years ago the homeland security held a similar hearing. witnesses noted there was no consistently applied standards or procedures in state prisons to determine what religious freedom material inappropriate for prisoners. have we seen any improvement in the last five years since that senate hearing? >> i don't think you have on the state level. haven't found any standardization. the states are marching to their own step. >> i think there have been significant improvements including texas prisons are much safer and more secure. what hasn't been done is a documentation of the changes. there is no work that i know of that compares documents the standards that are used and that will be helpful looking at that

when we are done. >> i don't think it is as complicated as it might seem. the group we are talking about, particular radicalize inmates represent a very small proportion. >> that is exactly my point. this might be important so the chairman and respect his opinion but that is a small portion. what about the larger amount of population, prison population we have? i believe the united states puts more people in prison than any other country. what about larger picture? what about the rest? >> it is a small portion with much greater exponential danger to the community. the reality is there are procedures in the state

institutions. they have institutional investigators to look at these mexican mafia and the like. it is not as if they don't have the institutional wherewithal to examine and investigate these groups. it is just another group. nighters if we have to reinvent the wheel to evaluate and assess the danger presented by radical prisoners. >> i have an additional 30 seconds but the point is it is one group that we have to look at. anybody that poses a threat to our society to make sure our streets are safe. >> correct. my opinion this particular group of radicalized inmates present exponentially greater danger to innocent individuals and civilians on the outside. >> thank you so much. i have a few seconds. could i just allow -- >> i promised you an extra 30 seconds.

>> may i introduce these to the record? >> could i yield to the late to introduce? >> that can't be restrained. mr. chairman, i would like to ask unanimous consent to submit to the record on fbi law enforcement bulletin regarding two prison radicalization and show you a statement on taxes based white supremacist gains -- banks -- with part 0 ties with executor and the black guerrilla family and mexican mafia to show the balance and need for expense of review and ask unanimous consent. >> it is so ordered and remind members that the four years they control the committee they could have had hearings on these issues anytime. i never heard any group that these hearings until we held our first hearing on muslim

radicalization. i recognize the gentleman from the united states attorney from pennsylvania, mr. marino. >> excuse the back and forth because of the angle. mr. useem, i have a couple questions. i applaud you and your study. i know how difficult it is to go into prisons and question people. i am a former district attorney. i have been in state and federal prisons involving cases and interviewing people so i know how that operation works. have you utilized any studies involving conversion of non moslem gang members to jihadists? >> i don't know of any such studies. >> the discern the mission of gang members and jihadists which is most dangerous? which one is most dangerous to

the overall security of the united states? >> jihadists are the most dangerous. the point was made that gains are out for themselves and their self-interest. jihadists are out to damage the country. in some way that explains why jihadists radicalization in prison is very difficult because they tend to come from individuals who are guided by their self-interest. >> i do refer to gained members in quotes as terrorists to a certain extent as well. would you agree that for the most part inmates are not truthful in interviews? and have a tendency to degree to tell the interviewer what he wants to here? you did state on page 3,

paragraph 2 that you were talking to one islamic inmate who said he will not have a radical group in this prison for more than five minutes without them knowing it. al qaeda proclaimed they seek to recruit. these people will tell you which one -- what you want to hear and certainly you have to weigh that with a pound of salt. >> absolutely correct. our study is a case they may have not told us the truth. we talked not only 2 inmates but security people. what was most striking to us was the consistency of responses. >> i recently visited two federal prisons that are have visited before.

concern among the officers i had conversations with outside the discussion with administrative individuals is the conversion of individuals who are not muslim. conversion of gang members and the under not so well-educated inmates into jihadists. do you actually believe a terrorist will share with you his their prison hierarchy mission? and execution of the recruitment/mission? >> i don't believe a terrorist would tell us that. >> not to mitigate or pick apart your research because i know how difficult is i want to get to mr. smith.

we have a parallel background. the number one issue as a former u.s. attorney that you are faced with in the criminal justice system. >> as a united states attorney counter-terrorism is our number one priority. i spend the majority of my time though i worked on other matters working on counterterrorism and national security. >> mr. dunleavy and mr downing, you have 18 seconds. would you like to respond to that? >> recognition that radicalization occurs in prison is necessary. you have to acknowledge that something exists to effectively deal with it. >> mr downing? >> two issues. one is targeting innocent civilians waging war on the

country and the other is conducting criminal enterprise for profit. >> thank you. i yield my time. >> thank you. now i recognize the gentleman from michigan, hansen clarke for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chair. from the onset i want to talk from personal experience. i grew up in detroit in the inner city. born and raised. that area has a reputation as a tough place. it is no tougher than growing up in new york or brooklyn or something like that. but there's one issue. many young men and in my opinion too many young black boys go to

prison when they would have been better off getting treatment for their mental illness. for drug addiction. they had a chance to learn how to read. we have a problem with our sentencing policy. needless to say, my closest childhood friends spent decades in the penitentiary. once these young kids go to prison, they become hardened criminals by virtue of their time in prison. so the focus of this hearing in the sense that we are looking at what is wrong with the prison culture and how can we change it? it is the right focus but to put it in the context of islam distracts us. let me get to the point.

i asked someone who served time in prison why did they convert to islam and why do of the young men convert to islam? two reasons. number one for protection. to protect myself from other inmates in prison and number 2, these young men were tired of their past. they wanted to break away from their criminal past and become a new man so they became muslim. my question is this. how can we change the culture in prison so that for those convicted felons who will be released, they are rehabilitated. they go back into prison for committing crimes on the streets. that is a waste of money that taxpayers can't afford. waste of money and the waste of 5. i have seen it happen.

we talk about political correctness. what kisses me off is i am a member of congress and my friends have rotted in prison and those that have gotten out have never been the same again. some of them did commit crimes. they should have been punished for it. but others were in the wrong place at the wrong time. they wouldn't snitch on their friends. they have never been the same again. i know this first hand. we have a problem in the prison system. we have to change it. we can't waste money warehousing these people, making them worse off, having them commit crimes and go back to jail, go back to prison. it costs taxpayers billions of dollars. political correctness aside i am a democrat. some of you who are tea party

members, this is the waste we have to stop. we're spending too much money incarcerating young black men whose lives could be saved. is not about islam. it is about the sentencing policy. it is about the prison system. we have got to change that. i am not really attacking where the chairman is coming from. this is the right focus. what is going on inside our prisons is wrong. we have got to change it. we have to stop the present industrial complex. we are wasting taxpayer money. tea party members, we need your support. we have to stop the waste. the waste of money and the waste of lives. these young men are going to islam to protect themselves. they want to change themselves. are there bad folks? yes like in any other faith and organization. i know i am making a speech but

in there is the question. let's improve the prison cultures so that these young men are rehabilitated. if they are going to be released and we are going to sentence them for life and punish them that is a separate issue. >> time is expired. >> i would like to speak to that. having been a kid who grew up in brooklyn it is a hard neighborhood to grow up in. if you talked to my friends when i was 16 years old and told them i would be with the department of corrections for 26 years they would have had no doubt. they would have thought i was on the other side. talking about growing up in a bad neighborhood and going into prison and coming out and the need for rehabilitation. this is different. our adversaries, committed jihadists no the pools in the prison environment. they are able to profile. they are able to select the same individual you are talking about

that wants to be rehabilitated. that wants to change. that once to advise and they select command convert him and indoctrinate him and send him over. >> time has expired. the gentleman from alabama, mr. brooks is recognized for five minutes. >> i appreciate your willingness to have this hearing today to focus on these issues that are such great national importance. my question is for mr. downing or mr. dunleavy. i apologize speaking to the side but that is the way my table is set up me being a freshman with the least seniority. no longer but we are looking at each other. after chairman king announced this hearing he received a message about sexual assault of a miner who claims to serve as an imam to his fellow prisoners. committee staff confirmed the

authenticity of the prisoner and his letter and referred it to the fbi. i had to miss a little bit so if i cover things that have been covered please let me know. i am in jail for eight months and i will be freed. i am a muslim and because of america's war on islam i feel i am the enemy of the united states. the profits that all muslims are one brother and they owe a duty to one another. the holy koran says fight those who fight you. by virtue of my faith the united states is my enemy and i feel committed to fight for my muslim brothers and sisters. what do americans expect? hassan some muslims being killed. what did you expect? i think he is a hero and i am sorry he ran out of bullets. i heard kill americans, jews in prison more than i did in chechnya. finally i will die for allah.

does this letter represents the sentiment of other radicalize prisoners in the american corrections system? >> in terms of violent radicalism does. i don't believe we're talking about islam. we are talking about a hijacked radicalized cut and paste form they call prislam. if it was islam he would not have written that letter. i question his credibility in terms of what he knows about islam. who were his teachers? where did he get his training? that is the problem we are talking about. some prison inmates become spiritual advisers in very short term and that is part of the problem. is not islam. >> interesting that in a letter he mentions he is an imam. how does an inmate become an imam in the prison system? we have civil service chaplains.

you get to this ideology. this radical islamic ideology, it states that the imam is selected by the congregation. inmates will elect their own imam to supersede the authority of the civil service chaplain. >> next please comment on the propensity of al qaeda prisoners in federal civilian custody like the 1998 east african embassy bomber to attack united states district judges like leonard sands and federal correction officers like louis pepe. as our judicial system and law enforcement under threat? >> i think it is quite apparent that is one of the threats posed by these violent radical jihadists. whether they're behind bars or on the street they don't turn off the belief system.

the government of the united states is a target for violent radical jihadists. representatives of that government weather in the courtroom or united states district judge and correctional facilities whether states or federal correctional facility, correctional officers. they are at risk because they represent the government which is the enemy of these radical violent jihadists. >> finally a question for each of you. on the basis of your professional experience with this subject what would you encourage congress to do about prison radicalization? >> i would try to meet the recommended ratio of chaplains to inmates, one in 500. i would create policies and procedures for the materials that are going into these prisons and monitor those and audit those and make sure all the prison staff is educator and oriented to what this threat is

and they have a responsibility to not only share the information with federal, state and local authorities but to know how to report these activities. >> anything you wish to add? >> the point that i would that is we do better as we improve capacity to release inmates and transition them out so they have meaningful futures when they leave. >> thank you. >> time has expired. the gentlelady for five minute. >> i appreciate this opportunity to come and listen. this is my first congressional hearing and when i was a candidate i wanted to come with an open mind for the issues facing our country and this gives me an opportunity to hear both sides of this debate. where i come down on this is i don't see a reason to draw a distinction between the threats of gangs in prison and

radicalized jihadis because they're both threats but different kinds of threats. there are more people killed on the streets of buffalo and rochester as a result of gang activity generated in prison. that being said that as a problem we have to deal with but that does not diminish the need to make sure we are save as a country which is what i am hearing witnesses testify about today. i am glad the distinction has been made about radicalize violent jihadis. are there ways to identify them in prison and when they are released what happens next? they won't cause much harm in prison. they can be influencing others. no doubt about it. what safeguards do we have in place for our citizens when they are released? i come from the area where we -- i will tell you the cooperation our law enforcement receives from the muslim community was

incredible. they brought our law enforcement, these people were identified and prosecuted. individuals who had trained under osama bin laden came back before 9/11. this is the culture i come from. we have to find some solutions and not to have us against them mentality where we are protecting the united states of america and our citizens. i want to know what is in place to assist in the safety of our country once people who have identified as being radicalized are released from prison. why wait for the first crime to occur before we protect ourselves? that does not take away our need for vigilance and make sure these gang members do not read havoc on our streets and slaughter individuals. in my judgment we can hit both issues. i want your comments on that.

>> correctional intelligence is a 2 way street. officials and administrators have to know about the inmates they receive particularly foreign-born inmates from countries of interest. there was an inmate in new york cleaning the cellblock who was a pakistani national with a degree in chemical engineering. corrections had to pass what they learned about radicalization back to law enforcement on the street so that they can know what is coming out. >> are there any prohibitions you are aware of? is it occurring in your judgment? sharing of information occurring? >> i think it is but it could be better. >> during the g.u.s. case it was not in place that is being put in place. the task force model works well

and the fusion center model, joint regional intelligence center has a veteran squad and prison radicalization squad in the fusion center. it is excellent. the fbi post a monthly prison radicalization meeting and brings correctional officers from state and local and federal law enforcement together to share this and there's a mechanism in place where there is advanced notice of violent extremists reentry into the community. that is a smart practice that needs to be shared across the united states. >> much of the mechanisms are in place for dealing with gained members. in my community gained members who have been identified by institutions in packets sent with them after convicted of crimes and in the institutions themselves are identified as gained members. when release or paroled from prison they go to orientation meetings where they are met with

and discuss their situation with gained officers from the police department. the mechanisms are in place. it is a matter of expanding that process to those that have been identified as violent radical jihadists in the prison system that get paroled into the community. no reason what we're doing can't be used to identify individuals being paroled into our communities and threatening our safety. >> i am conscious of my time. how do we identify the modern prison? are we able to know who will become a threat when they leave prison? >> i will defer to mr. dunleavy but i say the answer is yes because we can identify members of prison gangs, the intelligence is there on these other groups so there is no reason the portfolio if you will can't be expanded to radical

jihadists. >> she has proven herself a true member of the committee by going over, her first question. i recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania and united states attorney, mr mayer. >> thank you for your work in this important area. i want to follow up -- that is what i am trying to comprehend. how will look at distinguishing where the association is being created among people who are finding each other to share some sort of growing prislam versus those who are affiliating into a culture. is it distinguishable? >> i think it is

distinguishable. one thing that would help is if the corrections department as a whole reported the data for a change of religion. we talk about the percentage of inmates who are muslim or catholic or jewish but how many change religion two or three times and period of incarceration and why? why do we have an individual who has been in prison three times. >> you touched on this earlier. the qualification of those who are teachers of the faith and given access to materials and other things in the prison. is there any kind of standard by which it is appropriate for legitimate for the government to determine who should be the shepherd of a flock? >> the government has the right

to determine who to enter a correctional facility. whether employee or a volunteer. religious volunteers have the same sway and influence as the chaplain does yet there's no standardization. they simply come in. to invite them? how do they get in? >> with respect to the kevin james case the reality is there are issues with individual imams meeting with prisoners but the problem we also have in the g . g.i.s. case is because of his charismatic personality and toughness was able to accrue a number of followers. the prison system is not in a

position to dictate you cannot preach islam or your version of islam to the fellow inmates. the problem is someone in that situation going back to your earlier question, the radical -- radicalization, creation of this group overlaid on the prison gang's model. the shake of the particular group. the communication protocol that they use. they pass this protocol where there is a clandestine communications system in every prison so they can get their information trans institution. they were throughout the department of corrections. not only able to communicate with in prison but he would send the protocol to mail on the

outside because they couldn't send letters to each other. on the outside russell senate office building -- forwarded to other institutions so he was able to get statewide coverage of this protocol. they took the prison gained model and overlaid -- >> what is the solution? we are constantly amazed at the way inmates are able to communicate and the end of the -- ingenuity associated with them. there is a real goal for us not to be worried about the method of communication but to identify those who seem to be sharing the philosophy and doing an appropriate job balancing that. >> exactly right. the solution is vigilance in identifying members and groups because the communication networks will always find ingenious ways to communicate to stop that might be futile. vigilance to those individuals who are participating in the grooves. >> you made a comment that the profiles of terrorists and

criminals are different. how? >> education and poverty, the terrorist will be better education. criminals tend to have low education. the relevance of that is whether they act in their self-interest. to be a terrorist one must have a goal that comes with education. a lot of guys are strapping bombs on their backs around the world and walking into places because they have come under the influence of someone who is charismatic or otherwise. do you think those people are well-educated? >> time has expired. >> there is strong evidence that is the case. well educated people are carrying bombs into buildings. >> terrorists tend to be well-educated. that is correct. >> time has expired. the gentleman from illinois, mr. davis is recognized for five minute.

>> thank you. i want to thank the witnesses for being with us. dr. useem, i am not proud of it but i have one of the largest incarceration places in america. cook county jail. more than 10,000 people are often confined. 67% of those are african-americans who pretty much mirror the state prison system which is much larger. that is something we would like to shake a little bit if we could in illinois but it is tough. a recent study suggested the largest number of individuals who convert to islam are african-americans.

are you familiar with this study or this kind of information and whether you think those individuals are doing so for personal development or for terrorism? >> i am not familiar with that study. >> do you have an opinion relative to the conversion itself? >> it tends to be among african-americans but in terms of terrorists themselves legally dirty bomber carrier potentially was not african-american. it is not exclusive. >> mr one -- mr dunleavy, mr. smith, mr downing, how do you suggest we monitor radicalization while simultaneously respecting of the faith of islam? i am concerned great deal about

what we do for individuals in terms of helping them reintegrate back into normal life? what kind of support activity would you suggest for these individuals as they leave? >> the same way we institutionalize reporting suspicious activity across the united states through indicators and warnings. we also used that process to educate people. we used to get many reports of what would be called muslims with cameras which have committed no crime, no indicator of a terrorist nexus' but because people were afraid and uneducated they would report this. in the same sense to bring this into the prison system so that they know there's a distinction between someone practicing of faith and someone who is practicing a violent form of a hijacked faith or cut and paste version of another faith and indicators and warnings that need to be ingrained in the

prison system so we don't profile people. we profile behavior. that is a big distinction. as far as the release and reintegration into society that is huge. los angeles we are involved in a release program for job training and rehabilitation. that is part of the prevention strategy. we are faced with early release because of the economy and the shortfalls. we expect to see 6,000 parolees and to the population most of which is in los angeles. that is a big concern to us. >> i couldn't agree more. the way to do it properly so those individuals who are legitimately practicing their faith whether it is is islam or another faith they have to be protected and given the right to do that.

i spent my professional career upholding the constitution. congresswoman from texas began his statement talking about that. that is something i hold very dear as a career prosecutor. the consideration has to be education in the correctional institution of the personnel so that they can -- behavioral indicator. not who people are but what they do and how they act so that they may be able to separate any radical hijack attempts of islam versus legitimate and true faith. >> in a correctional facility religion is a very positive aspect. it helps to put a call in influence and helps the individual to change his mind and have a higher purpose.

in the early riots muslim inmates were credited with preventing additional deaths and injuries to staff. it can have a positive effect. we have to recognize the foreign influences of this ideology which is different and the way that works. >> thank you very much. before i recognize the next member of want to acknowledge staff members, mr. meek, your son is doing a good job and finally earning an honest living after years as a reporter. i recognize the gentleman from virginia for five minute. >> i thank all our panel members and want to commend i was a bit surprised and disappointed when some members of our committee are questioning why we are having this and seems to me we almost diverged into a discussion about prisons

generally. i don't believe that is the focus of our committee. our committees homeland security and it is entirely appropriate that we are here today. i will go where the risk is and i believe other members of the committee will as well. to look at other areas and other groups i am happy to do that. i believe radical islam presents a real threat and it is appropriate that we examine that today. i would like to direct the first question to mr. downing. on may 19th committee staff visited the supermax prison where al qaeda members held in civilian prisons are kept and confined and the staff observed this. at the insistence of the department of justice of al qaeda prisoners have and monitored conversations with defense attorneys and despite

repeated requests for available technology the bureau of prisons and fbi requested or would be available to them that technology is not there and they are unable to monitor communications between al qaeda prisoners during recreation time. mr downing, those are not bureau prison policies but coming from the department of justice do they degrade our safety as americans and also for the personnel who work within the prison? >> in terms of this threat intelligence is key. we need to create an environment that is hostile to recruitment, to developing this ideology and planning plot. it does diminish our ability to

understand the planning. >> second question to mr. dunleavy. i want to the review the letter sent to the chairman. it states i am a muslim and because of america's work, i am an enemy of the united states. what threshold must be met when a person is a self-declared enemy of the united states? ..

>> prison testimony and maybe further actions. but thank all of you for being here today. i yield back the remainder of my time. >> i thank the gentleman for yielding. and the gentlelady from california has five minutes. >> thank you. i ask you to accept a summary of the letter that you submitted into the record. a summary synopsis of the letter

that you submitted into the record, would you accept? >> without objection. >> i want to highlight the summary of the letters submitted. 16 letters from 14 individuals submitted. two of those individuals are convicted of right wing terrorists activity. two others have threatened to commit acts of terrorism, and three of the individuals are convicted of murder, one for killing two police officers on separate occasions and another for killing three people. one was on the fbi ten most wanted list, one was stated in writing to the "l.a. times" in saying in a little bit more than 14 months, i'll probably commit murder, perhaps mass murder, and another for mailing a bomb to the u.s. attorney. he attempted to send another advise in a powdery substance labeled anthrax. letters from these individuals

is questionnaire in any court of law. second thing, mr. dunleavy, the webster's dictionary, the radicalization is which is individual changes from pacifist to militant radicalization. >> i guess if webster has it in its dictionary, that's correct. >> that's right. in light of that, i'd like to ask you a question about new york. do you have asian gangs? >> i'm sorry. >> asian gangs in new york? >> i'm sorry. do i have agent gangs? i'm not in new york and employed by the department. >> when you were, would you say there was asian gangs in new york? >> yeah. >> would you say there was mexican gangs in new york? >> probably. >> would you say there are

african-american gangs in new york? >> probably. >> would you say there are white supremist groups in new york? >> absolutely. >> in light of that, i think the question would really be would you say those groups kill people? individuals in those groups kill people? yes or not. i only have a few minutes. >> sure. >> would you say they are radicalized in the definition that i just read, those groups would be in the process of individualing changing or have changed from pacifist to activism to become more revolutionary, militant, or extremist? >> i think some of them. >> i asked you a question. could you think some of them in prison have also been radicalized? >> again, some of the groupss g- >> is this your answer question?

>> i said the answer is generalization. >> i'm going to repeat it. you claim some sort of knowledge and are testifying on the record. my question is based in the air that you worked in, would you agree that members of asian gangs, black gangs, mexican gangs, and white supremist have also been radicalized according to the definition that i read in the webster's dictionary? the definition is individuals who may at one time been passive or changed now to more aggressive? >> yeah, i would say so. >> this brings me to what i would like to say. in california alone, there were 812 gang-related homicide in

2007. i'd trying to get the national number. i'd like to say this in light of some of the comments that were made. i do not disagree that radicalization occurs according to the definition. i don't disagree, as mr. dunleavy said, that radicalization occurs in prisons with various groups. what i disagree with, i would say with all due respect, the scope of the committee only focusing on one particular group. i actually believe the focus of one particular group on the bases of race or religion can be deemed as racist and is discriminatory. i would ask that we as a committee, we need to look at the prisons. i wholeheartedly agree we need to examine all terrorists attacks and threats. you will have my 100% support. but the criminalled

discriminatory on one particular group on the bases of race or religion is flawed and should not be done in the house of representatives. i yield back. >> since it was centered to me. i disagree. the fact is this committee was set up to come back terrorism, after 9/11. as gentleman, mr. smith that has testified, there are already procedures in place that follow gangs when they leave prison. we have the protocols in place. unfortunately, because of too many instances of political correctness, we don't no have the ability to follow those trained by jihad. your party had control of this committee for four years. not one hearing involving prison, skin heads, nazi, area nation, white supremist. suddenly it emerges when we start talking about muslim radicalization. this is the purpose of the committee. we have a judiciary committee to deal with issues in the prison. i agree, gangs are important,

neo-nazis are important, the purpose of this committee is to combat islamic terrorism. because that is the threat. if we find they are allied with a fortunate power, we will investigate -- i >> i -- >> no, it's my time. if we find out the area nation is aligned with a foreign power, we will spread ourself out. we are going to focus on the target that threatens the security of this nation. that's why we are doing it without minimizing the other threats. we have committees for that. our committee is set up to combat terrorism. with that -- >> would you yield? >> i will not. i will not recognize -- >> white supremist. check out the history. >> the fact is if it was important, you had four years. not once was the hearing held on one of those issues. i recognize mr. bilirakis for five minutes. >> thank you for holding the hearing. very important.

we have been presented with testimony of radicalization occurring in los angeles, illinois, and new york, the prison systems among others. the dirty bomber, jose padilla was real -- radicalized, i believe, you refer, and then associated with the radical mosque in my home state of florida. does radicalization associated with prison seems to be more prominent in particular states, regions, hot spots? and also to what extent to prison radicalization move among and throughout the various prison systems and areas, and what can be done to curb the spread of radicalization in prisons? >> i don't think it's contained to certain cities or states. i think it moves nationwide. radicalization, particularly islamic radical ideology, moves throughout. it can work in the county jail, state jail, it can work in the federal prison.

i think what has to be done is again to recognize it as a problem. we call it a problem not because there's 5,000 individuals being converted every five minutes or something like that. it's very selective, it's a process that we have to recognize the process. we have to be able to interpret the process and we have to be able to have some sort of standards, nationwide, in the vetting of clergy. >> i would say that the way i look at the issue of prison radicalization that we're talking about here today, it's a -- it's part of an overall situation that we've been experiencing in this country of homegrown radicalization and domestic jihadist. this is an issue that we once thought was never going to come to our shores. that we were going to have a problem with here. that that was overseas and in great britain or in spain or some countries in europe or

overseas. that was the think then. even around 2005 when he had the jis case. certainly since that time, we've seen that there is a problem of homegrown radicalization and domestic jihadism in this country. it is not only within the prison wall, but certainly on the outside and the communities. just as if -- just as you can have a homegrown jihadist in any city or location or state in this country, the same is certainly true in any penal institution, state or federal throughout the united states. they are not mutually exclusive. they are part of the same overall threat in my opinion. >> would you like to respond, sir? >> i think you saw in 2009, we had a huge ramp up in homegrown terrorists. we had 85 individuals involved in 13 plots. that signals a trend that we had. i think in the prison system we are beginning to establish

collection mechanisms. they are not widespread. i think when we put the systems in place, we're going to see what we've seen on the outside inside prisons. it's still low volume. it's high consequence and high intensity for america if we don't address the problem. i think we are on the front end of this problem right now. >> thank you. anyone else? >> i would agree with mr. downing, my bottom line is that prisons are infertile grounds for radicalization. think of the case of kevin james. what's not clear is if kevin james had been outside of prison whether or not he would have had the same orientation and in much of capable of acting on it. i believe that's likely to be the case. >> i'd like to address the point having prosecutorred the case. the issue that we had with kevin james, he orchestrated the plot to target jewish people and military personnel. he quarterbacked the plot,

created the plot from the prison. so the reality is is the danger wasn't whether she was inside or outside the prison, from prison, the key takeaway is from prison he was out to set up and set out a operational cell of would be jihadist on the streets of southern california. there can be no question in my mind as to his commitment to wage the jihad based on the evidence in the case. >> i would like to go further on that. with respect to the organization and the ability to operate, mark wrote a book, leaderless jihad, talking about the future, 21st century jihadist, it lacks leadership or organizational structure for operation. when you plug it into a prison system that has an ability to communication and an ability to send messages and ability to operate beyond the prison walls, it's like a usb port. the jihadist has to plus his flash drive into it, and he can

operate. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. i don't have any time left. thank you for holding the important, necessary hearing. i appreciate it. >> thank you. as a previous convention bipartisan committee staff conducted the side visit to the facility in colorado. during the visit, they provided the bipartisan staff a six page list cataloging all of the nation of islam videos in the library of the facility, includes titles of 305 videos, vast majority of which feature lewis. according to the officials, often these videos are shown to inmates as part of the institutions islamic prayer service. i'm asking consent the document be included in the record. however, because it's documents as law enforcement sensitive, i would ask it be included in an annex to the hearing record that reflects the sensitivity. without objection so ordered. with that, i recognize my friend

from brooke -- brooklyn, i went to college in the streets of brooklyn long before mrs. clarke was around. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for the panelist for bringing the expertise to bear on the important topic. i share some of the sentiments that heard from my colleagues on this side of the aisle. i'll share with you where i'm having difficulty. it has to do with the definition of terrorism. and i understand the specific terrorism that we're talking about with regards to radical islam. and the per view of this committee which is homeland security overall. my concern is that we don't minimize the terrorism that many communities face due to gangs in this nation. and in some of the response that

i've heard, it kind of made it seem as though garden variety gang activity does not translate into terrorism. and i'd like us to not lose sight of that. while i understand the at per vw of this hearing, why have war on drugs which is the per view of homeland security if we don't see these criminal enterprises as undermining our nation? i'd like to assert that because i think that there is some convergence in a prison culture that breeds the type of challenges that we see in our civil society, whether it is the radicalization of an individual through a religious means, or through a violent organized family crime means. i'd like us not to lose sight of

that. because i think it's going to be important because we're doing to address it in our pursuit of thwarting radicalization that comes to individuals that are practicing as you stated. my question to you would be what percentage of individuals have you been able to identify at this stage? i don't know whether there's been any national movement to identify individuals who are likely given the profile of activity that would be inclined to get involved in some sort of international plot. mr. dunleavy.

>> i don't think you can put a number on it. i would say it's a very collect, small group. again, we mention the senate report where it said there was as many as 36 exinmates in yemen in training. we look -- how many exinmates are there in society? there's probably hundreds of thousands. so there's only 36. we're looking at a filtering process that takes down. but the committed jihadist only needs one to strap on and to blow up and create the most damage. so numbers, it's kind of a misnumber in trying to understand the situation. >> let me say then that if it only takes one. would we find some parallels then? to massive gang recruitments and the taking of life over time in various communities? the numbers of individuals,

families, communities that have been disrupted, how do we balance out, i guess, our mentality around the difference between someone who can do one single solitary act and wipe out 3,000 people, say in new york, or that ongoing killing that is taking place by individuals who have been formerly incarcerated that continue to recruit in communities around the nation. >> there's no question that gangs pose a serious danger to communities. however, there is a big distinction. i come from los angeles. it was known as the gang capitol of the united states, which we had 60 to 70% of the homicides gang related. there's no doubt that occurs. the distinction and the difference is when you hear people refer to gangs as urban terrorists, it's not terrorists in the sense that we know terrorists in that their intent is not to target innocent civilians or wage war on the

country. innocent civilians get hit -- >> occasionally? >> that's not the target. that's not the intent. it's usually about territorial imperative, it's about controlling narcotics, it's about maintaining the gang status in their communities and neighbors. >> i would beg to differ. let me just close. because if we've see this process as an isolated community issue, then we lose the point that these are americans. right? this is an american threat. and i think that, you know, we've got to reorient ourself if we we're going to, in fact, get a handle on this type of activity in our nation. the types of dollars that we're spending fighting the war on crime if we continue to see this as an isolated individual who ends up with a collateral damage in a community, then we never

really get to deal with it. mr. rigell, i wanted to ask our panelist of whether the prison guard in california is monitored? i would like to ask if you would join us in a letter to really get to the bottom of whether the fact the response that we received with that is accurate as it should have been. >> show me the letter. i would consider it signing. >> thank you. >> i'm sure the might bees on the side of the aisle is concerned. we've spent a career investigating. with that, i recognize the distinguished gentleman from south carolina, one the league members. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for having this hearing, inviting such distinguished panelist. i want to take the opportunity to thank the administration for working with you on this issue.

they recognize the radicalization process. according to the web site, the news story today the obama administration has been work, you to address this issue and it notes that secretary napolitano is setting up a task force to look into radicalization in the prisons. and so it's a real issue. it's amazing that we can talk about gang activities in prisons, but it seems to be off limits to talk about radicalization within the prisons when it comes to the muslim community. i'm reminded as i look around the committee room and i invite the guests here today to look at the pictures on the walls. remember that we are fighting as a nation an ideology that really seeks to over throw us as a nation. that attacks the freedoms that we have here in this country. and so with that, i'll get into my line of questioning here. the 9/11 commission report recommended that the u.s. government efforts to communicate in the islamic world be as strong as they were in combating closed society during the cold war.

he once said the ultimate determinant in the struggle now going on and before the would not be bombs or rockets. the values that we old, the beliefs that we cherish, and the ideals to which we dedicated. i'm concerned about the distribution of radical materials and the mosque. if we continue to allow the literature to propagandize. we will not succeed in today's test as reagan said, wills and ideals. my question really revolves around that distribution of the material. i can go on and talk about the middle east forum which did a poll that looked at the jihadist-based literature, the presence of violent type of literature within those prisons and in the mosque, but that

would take a while. it's very evident. i'll be glad to provide that to the panelist. my question is to mr. smith. can you explain the challenges in the prison environment and are all of the materials protected by the first amendment? >> this is america. we have a freedom of speech and freedom of religion. you are two different issues. you are dealing with the outside and then prisons. because they are going to have a much more restrictive environment. i'll leave it for them to talk about those damages. i look at it from an investigative stand point. if an individual in an institution possesses these types of materials, it's actually in a way the investigative benefit because that person is then

self-identifying as someone that bears further inspection and someone that can be monitored by the correctional staff. i mean the reality is just possessing a cd is not a crime. while it can be monitored and restricted because of the prison environment, we have to look at it in an over all situation as potentially behavioral indicator that we may have someone that is on the path to radicalization and that may present a security threat. and we we -- that may bear furtr inspection and further monitoring. >> do you not agree that the presence of that material and along with the affair kinds of sermons entitled which one will you choose the flag of islam, or the flag of america? would you not agree they don't lead down the path of some of the islam radicalization

behavior? >> i'm not going to make that broad of a statement. i'm a prosecutor. i look at evidence and facts. i'm not going to give a broad policy opinion as to what that can or cannot signify. i do think, with respect to radical radical -- violent radical jihadist literature, while it is not a crime in and of itself to pose, can be a behavioral indicator that it's something that we need to inspect further. i'd like to leave my answer that the. >> in the remaining time, any other panelist like to comment on that? >> i would just offer on the other side of the coin, we should create opportunities for the pure part of this to be in the religions. such as the ngos. there's an ngo by the name of aunie, that is what they say. values 15 guided by ten principals, rooted in islam, includes social equality,

separation of religion and state, gay rights, critical analysis and interpretation. she and her organization have been trying to get into the prison system to give this literature that is written by islamic academic scholars. i think there could be more efforts on this front as well. >> if i can say something about the literature, you can look in new york state and se literature sent from a company by halako books, connected to the mosque where al-awlaki attended, you can look and see literature mail from saudi arabia, you can see literature sent from tehran and iran sent directly to the inmates. the problem is there's a media review that's supposed to look over the literature. one the persons that sits on the media review committee is the chaplain. so again we get back at the chaplain that's not properly

vetted. who's watching this? who's looking at the literature? >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the gentleman from louisiana, mr. richardson, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'll start in the simple question. but we talked about our prison systems and the privilege which we had jurisdiction over our presence. would you say that the population or the overwhelming population in the prisons is the fact they are over crowded and all of those things is a hindrance to effective enforcement and monitoring of inmates and really allows for things to go unnoticed. we talked about conducting and organizing the terrorists plot from prison. we also have reaching out and intimidating witnesses, killing witnesses, so do you think that the over crowded population and

prisons therefore breathes that type of activity because we don't have the resources to monitor it effectively? >> well, i think that if you talk to prison administrators, their number one goal is to manage the system, to manage the system, reduce assault on staff, reduce the assault on inmate to inmate and reduce escapes in that. that's the first priority. they are not looking at the individual who could be a good inmate, but is also a jihadist. well behaved, doesn't cause a problem. you are looking for the assault, you are looking for the drug dealers, you are looking for somebody that's doing that. >> right, the question is are we spreading our resources too thin when we have overcrowding in the prison systems to effectively monitor the thing that is we're talking about? >> we may have too many inmates in prison. and there's been a tremendous build up in the prison population over the last 25 years. there's also been a sharp

decrease in crime, and that's attributable to the build up. but we might be at that point where reductions in inmate populations would it not increase the prime rate and prisons become more manageable at that point. you know, i think the key thing, the thing driving all of this is good leadership and good management within the correctional agencies. that has improved tremendously in the last 20 years. >> the next question, i think it was mr. dunleavy who mentioned or maybe it might have been mr. smith, who talked about the fact that the issue we're dealing with today is expotentially greater. i guess my numbers show that we had 16,000 murders in the united states in '08, 15,000 in '09. so as we talk about the number of murders and congresswoman clarke talked about it, i just hope that we're not being

desensitized to the victims of murder in the united states as opposed to who they are. now you see in newspapers and print media. to make us feel better, we always say he was the intended target. he may not have lived the right life. what was alluded to earlier was the fact that when we talk about the crime rate, we talk about terrorism, depending on the deaf nation that you use. that's one of my concerns. because where i am, and in most urban cities, our weapons of mass destruction ak-47s, tech nines, and all of the assault weapon that is are able to harm a lot of people. which includes innocent victims. i want to stress that we don't let the victims and their perceived lifestyle desensitize us to the fact that 15,000 people were murdered in the country last year. i thank you all for what you are doing. i think what you are doing is incredibly important. i think that is an important

issue. i think radicalization and what we are doing in our prison system should be a concern. it is a homeland security concern when you talk about what happens when they get out. let's take louisiana. we release 15,000 people from prison. 50% go back. that's 7500 crimes we know will be committed. to the extent that we can't do anything on the front end to prevent that we know are going to happen, then i think that that's something we can also look to work with our prison systems and make sure that we are just as effective. so no matter what the title of the hearing is, doesn't concern me. what concerns me is the result that coming out of it. and that's what's important. even opening myself up to a lecture from my chairman on what the democrats did or didn't do the last four years. i think the message that was given last elections, let's look forward. thank you for what you do. hopefully we can broaden the conversation to make sure that

people getting -- we reduce the recidivism rate, people coming out of prison, no matter who they are, what race they are, or anything else are not a threat to the hard working american citizens. thank you. >> i thank the gentleman. his time is expired. now moving forward, we go to mr. rogers. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i thank all of you for your testimony. it's been very helpful and it's been a productive hearing. to your knowledge, do extremist groups sponsor the travel of prison moms and released prisons to countries such as saudi arabia and yemen? >> i do know that foreign governments have provided funds for new york state chaplains, islamic chaplains to travel to saudi arabia. how that money specifically made it's way to the public servant i believe went through an islamic

organization within the united states. i don't think it was a check directly from the saudi bank to them so and so. with respect to inmates that traveled overseas with that's more elusive. i know from an individual that went from new york state to islamic center in florida and then from there as soon as his parole was released, he jumped off three different flights to egypt, saudi arabia, and yemen. where the funds came for that is cloudy. >> mr. dunleavy, mr. smith, or any others, is it true that three member of domestic terrorists recruit plots all had contacts with prisoners in new york prison system? >> yes, it is. in the lack of the case, there were individuals directly tied to those six that were also visits inmates and taking phone

calls from inmates in new york state. with respect to the virginia case and with respect to the argan case, names of inmates and islamic clergy, i believe were found on hard drives by the individual. >> great. i'd like to ask each one of you to briefly answer this. what would you individually like to see become the work product that results from this hearing? start with you, professor. >> well, i think the first thing is the mission of the hearing is something that i agree with. >> well, but other than raising awareness, obviously the chairman has done a good job of that with us. but i would think that y'all are looking for statutory changes, behavioral changes. >> i think one thing is we -- more than just awareness, we need specific knowledge of practices. i think we've had conversation -- you've had conversations

about this. we know anecdotes, isolated incidence. we don't have an general overview and specific information on practices. i think it would be very good if the committee would move in that direction. >> i agree. i think the assessment of what is in place and the regulations and policies that support that assessment would be helpful. from there create a blueprint and road map of the way it hit. the credited, valued, vetted, spiritual advisors they processed to do that. on where it's about contemporary america and not about the middle east. there are creating universities across the nation to train americans in what it is to have an american-muslim identity. the material that comes in is important, an eye towards

prevention, prevention of violent radicalization, and better monitoring of meetings to ensure they are meetings and not a reduce reduce -- rows of somer type of activity. >> i think what needs to be done, an assessment of what type of investigative and intelligence sharing apparatus that exists among the institutions in each of those states on the issue needs to be assessed. that's ground zero. and once that assessment is done, a panel of people that have the experience and the know how to be able to produce a document that might give some best practices that should be followed by the institutions so that we can monitor the threat and we can prevent any particular violent ataxes on -- attacks on the prison wall.

>> mr. dunleavy, you are batting clean up. >> i think the first thing is you have to recognize it's a viable threat. going with my colleagues, the collection, methodology, and the collection of data has to be standardized so that we can look across the board. so that new york, the way new yorkers recording it's converse or the way that new york is recording it's visitors or literature is the same as california, florida, illinois. there has to be sandization in data collection. >> innocent. thank you very much, mr. chairman, i appreciate it. >> time of the gentleman has expired. let me thank all of the witnesses. it's been a terrific hearing. all of you, all four of you i thought gave extremely valuable testimony. i think mr. rogers questions at the end sets the tone. we have to go from here, we have to assemble information, documentation, and get positive results from the hearing. certainly as far as setting some sort of standardization. i want to thank you.

we will ask you to respond to those in writing if you will. the marrying record will be held open. without objection, the committee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> now a discussion from the

clinton school of public service in little rock, arkansas, on the state of public education. sacramento mayor, kevin johnson, and former washington d.c. chancellor, michelle rhee, talk about ideas they are implementing. it's about an hour and ten minutes. >> thank you michelle and mayor, this is one the most requested programs. thank you for being here and being part of it. let's start a little bit about both what you are doing in education, and would you give us your thoughts about what is the state of public education in america today? >> who's going first? she's the boss. the real answer is it sucks. i mean we're nowhere near where we need to be. there should be an out rage, there should be a national crisis.

we should all be waving the flag and doing everything that we can. just think about this, the children that are in school today will be the first generation that are less educated than their parents. that to me is alarming that in the richest, most powerful country in the world, and we're losing our competitive advantage. secondly, when you think about this, if you go out, ten, twenty years, there's going to be 120 million jobs that are going to require high skill, high paying jobs. at the rate that we are going, we're only going to have 50 million kids to fill those jobs. which means 70 million are going to be filled by children from china and india. thirdly, we're spending twice as much money and the results ant ere aren't any better. i do think as a country, we need

to make it a pop priority. not just in washington, it's all of us doing our part. whether you have kids or not. we've got to do our part. there's far too many kids. but there's also kids that live in nice neighborhoods and their schools aren't serving them to the degree that they need to as well. >> so i concur with him. you know, we are in a position right now in this country where if you were to tell me the zip code that a child lives in and the race of that child, we could with good accuracy tell you what their academic achievement levels are. that's one the most un-american things i can imagine. it's betraying the ideals by which we live as americans. i think the country was founded on the idea that based on how much money a kid has and which family they are born into they

are only going to rise to certain level. i think that if nothing else serves as a cry to the american public to engage right now in public education to fix and transform, it's that fact. but i also want to say i think we are at a unique moment in time right now in this country. over the last few months we have, i think, education reform has begun to seep into the mainstream with things like the movie waiting for superman, and nbc education, where they focused an entire week on education issues. because of those things, they are bringing education reform into the mainstream and bringing the issues to everyday day. i think that there is a moment in time that we have right now that we've never seen before in this country that we have the

opportunity to actually fix the problem. and so i'm feeling somewhere heartened as well right now that now is it. >> all right. both of you, obviously, had experience in urban school districts. you as a superintendent, you as a mayor. what roles should cities play? big cities in urban school districts in terms of governance, control, leadership. what roles should cities play? >> well, i think that, you know, there's only so much that can be done at the federal level. and there's only so much that can be done at the state level. i think the real work in education happens at the local level. and, you know, in terms of governance, to be quite frank, i don't think that the current governance structure of the vast majority of the school district which is a school board structure, i do not think the

structure works. because you've got nine, ten, 11 school board member all representing their local neighborhood often times they are elected with lots of union dollars in a very low turn out election and then you've got this body of people who are not experts in the field who are determining policy. and mostly, if you have ever seen a school board meeting, not that you would want to necessarily see one, if you went to one, you would see that there's very little too no mention of children, schools, or student achievement. everything is is about adult issues. and that is a huge problem when you have this disperse accountability where basically there is no one person in charge. then you have low academic achievement, you have it being made for no good reason

whatsoever and no one at the end of the day to hold accountable for that. i am a huge component of mayoral control in schools. i don't think that mayoral control in and of yourself. you need mayoral control and a great mayor that's willing to prioritize the issue. where we've seen the most significant movement in the nation in cities like boston and new york and chicago, they've had mayoral control. >> and d.c. >> and d.c. i didn't get to finish the job. we started. >> i'll add a couple of things. i think it's important to know any mayor, you have mayor mark who's in little rock, and mayor who is in north little rock. mayors have to chair about the public school. they do not have a choice. there's no way to have a great city without control.

i chair the u.s. conference of mayors task force on public education. i also chair arne duncan, the secretary task force for mayors. i'm troying to get mayors to unthere's a spectrum. on the far extreme, mayors controlling schools, and the very basic level is mayors taking the city services and aligning them with the school district. no matter what a mayor's op site -- appetite is, they have to be involved. i'm proud that the u.s. conference of mayors came out really strong on a policy. michelle will talk about it later. but it's the third time we've done it. the first one was we supported president obama's agenda with race to the top. then mayor's don't do. then we supported common core standards. we think standards and high expectations are important, especially if we want to compete internationally, the last one was last in, first out.

lifo. it is a very, very significant policy that is not good for children. essentially, it's seniority based layoffs. lay off teachers based on seniority. that is not the best interest of kids. you are talking about teachers who have been there forever who may not be performing well, and often times, you have young new teachers that are knocking it out of the park. because they are last in, first out, that is not putting a child's interest ahead of adults. i think that's one the common themes you are going to hear us talking about. anybody that really cares about reform is going to say students first, or kids first no matter what we decide to do. i think mayors have a responsibility to play the active role. at the end of the day, the federal level, you can lay out, you know, very important thing that is are important at the state level, you can talk about legislative policies, but the real work is always going to be done at the local level. >> i would to follow up on that. having served on the school board, and been to several

meetings, we attempted at one point to set us regular meetings. it was a struggle. the city board and school board were not communicates very well. but many students in urban areas, you talk about the role of cities and in terms of accountability. they walk through unsafe neighborhoods, drainage ditches that are full, crime on the streets, poor lighting, and yet you talk about cities having control over the schools. but in the neighbors that surround the schools, in many urban areas, it is decimal. how do you akuwait the two? >> go ahead, honey. you can go. [laughter] >> i'm going to tell you a little story.

last year on the job in d.c., i decided to visit the high school. it was one the lowest performing school. when i showed up, i never stopped by the office and told anybody. if i did, everybody would be on the best behavior. he's in the -- she's in the building. so i would just go and walk around without being announced. because i wanted to know what was happening in the particular schools. and in the one morning i walked in, first classroom had five kids, second classroom seven kids, where are all of the children? finally i walked in and said where are all of the children? she said, oh, well, today is friday. really? because i didn't think that was a good reason for kids not being

in school. i said is that it? she said, no. i thought that's good. i thought maybe she was going to tell me the kids were on a field trip. she said, no, it's raining too. i thought since when is the weather and the day of the week a determinant of our expectations of whether children are coming to school or not? so anyway, i'm continuing my tour around. i finally walk into one classroom, full of children. like 345 -- 35 kids in the classroom. there weren't enough. some were on the radiator, so i'm watching the class. it's a very dynamic teacher. he's teaching the lesson. very engaging. i went up to one of students. i said what do you think about your teacher? this is my best teacher. absolutely. i said really why? he said two reasons, first of all, he teaches us something new every day. and second of all, he will explain something to you if you don't understand it. i thought that's kind of a low

bar for who your favorite teacher is. okay. i watched the rest of the lesson. very good. after the end of my tour, i'm walking out of the building. this is about 10:00 in the morning. the young man who i had talked to and two of his friends are walking out of the building in front of me. i tap them on the shoulder and said excuse me young man. where do you think you are going? that was our first period, we came to that. our second period teacher sucks, we're going to roll. not what the american public thinks of when they think of a truant. kids are stays up, hitting the street, you don't expect the children are making the conscious decision to wake up early in the morning to show up for the first period class, because they know they are going to get something great and then leaving. that's the kind of contact that

we make as adults. where are you going to spend your time? where you get something. it gives you the indication that kids are going to make the conscious decision. i was at harlem a few weeks ago. i was meeting with a group of students. i'm a big believer in fought with kids about real issues. so i said to them, i said you know what, lots of people believe that because kids are poor and because they are black or latino they can't learn. because of all of the, you know, environmental factors and the violence in your community and this sort of thing. what do you think about that? kids were like absolutely disagree. they started tell megaall of the reasons why. the one little girl raised their hands, she said i would want you to tell the american people it is not about where we come from every day, it's where we are going to that counts. so this is what the kids want us

to know about the quality of education. they will persevere through all of the challenges on the way to school, as long as we are making what happens in the school building worthwhile for them. >> a couple of things in terms of original question. we have something in sacramento, the city-schools partnership. we sit down with the four superintendents, because we have four superintendent. how can we better align the services to meet the needs? there's three areas. one is school safety, route to school and from school. the second point is around facilities, joint use. libraries, communities centers, pools, parks, a host of things, and the third is after school or out of school programs. now as a city, we do a lot of these things. we're doing them all willy-nilly

as opposed to doing what works. i think there's a responsible for all of us as mayors to align our services, make sure they are making sense. when michelle talked about earlier, mayors controlling schools, it makes sense. because a mayor can take all of the resources and work with the school system and then that way it would not be as disjointed or incoherent like it is. a lot of things we do not country don't make sense. you don't need to come to realize that. we live in a regular basis. part of what you see is yes our frustration on one hand. we also have a sense of we're the leaders, our mentality is to go in and change things and not just accept them because that's the way they've been. we base every decision on results. results for kids. if it's work, then let's replicate it and invest even more in what works. if it's not working, then we don't have time to make excuses. there's no city that's going to

reach it's potential without taking care of its most valuable resource and that's the children. and unfortunately, around this country, it is not happening near enough. >> all right. [applause] [applause] >> today providence dismissed 1,926 teachers. do you agree with that? let me follow that up, what do you think is the role of teachers unions in education reform? >> okay. this is about to get exciting. [laughter] >> i think that's my cue. you know, i actually say this, people all the time ask me they say, you know, shouldn't the unions change? how are we going to get the unions to do this, or how are we going to get the unioned to do that? i always say i think we're focused on the wrong thing when we're asking those kinds of questions.

the job of the teachers union is to protect the priorities, privileges, and the pay of their members. they are doing a really good job of that. we can't begrudge them because that's their job. they are doing. no, they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. the problem is not the teachers unions, folks. the problem is that we have created an environment in this country where we have allowed this particular interest group to have a tremendous amount of influence over policy and legislation and what we do and on the other side, there is no national organized interest group with the same as a teachers union who's advocating on behalf of the children and children alone. >> are you going to do something about that? >> that's why i started the organization students first. is to do exactly that. to provide the balance in the landscape.

:

and one that is again advocating on behalf of the interest of kids and once we do that with the teachers' union decides to do is irrelevant because the american people will be saying it is important to put children first. [applause] >> i have been traveling all day and have not heard the news out of providence and i don't know what is going on. i will say a couple things. what they did was fired all the teachers and that is not the best move i have ever heard mostly because there are hundreds, thousands of incredibly hard-working effective teachers who work hard for too little money every day. and hugh cannot in any thing we do, we cannot make these sweeping judgments about an entire profession or entire

group of professionals. that is wrong. people need to countdown the theatrics a little and get to what to the root of the issue is. if we had better evaluation systems in this country for teachers where we could differentiate and we knew who the top performers were and the promising people and the ineffective ones were we could make decisions based on people's performance that was going to benefit kids but to sort of do these sweeping things because they cause a lot of drama is not good or healthy for the children. we need to be much smarter about how we treat teachers and professional. recognizing and rewarding the best and most effective. also for those who are not doing

their job or adding value, quickly have to improve performance or go. [applause] >> i will let a couple points to what michele said. this is the misnomer on the work we do. there's no group of people that should be esteemed more than teachers. it is the most noble profession. we believe you should be rewarded, recognize, professionally developed. we need to do everything we can. if you look at other countries they are taking the brightest and best and those folks are going into the education field and they are revered. we do not do that in our country. don't confuse us saying when we say take on the union we do not feel the union speaks wholeheartedly for the rank-and-file. there's a great story about a vote on her contract which flipped on its head. that is the first thing i want to say.

the second thing is if the teachers union are an impediment to a child learning then that is problematic. my grandfather was a sheet metal worker and he said the union's job is to protect and create an environment where you have good wages, benefits and retirement. all those sorts of things. that is the union's job but the union prevents children learning that we have a problem. my grandfather is a card-carrying member of the local 169 and sheet metal worker. here's my simple story. i grew up in a poor part of sacramento. what part do you call home? are am not going there. >> the forepart of sacramento called old park. i went to college, play in the nba 12 years and came back to the home town and started

running charges and we were starting an elementary school. k-8 elementary school. the same time we were starting mice my high school, settle this high school was of the mississippi was about to be taken over by the state of california because it underperformed ten years straight. only 20% of seniors were graduating and going to college which mandated% -- that was going on year after year. i had this idea. i went to be superintendent of the school board and said can we run sacramento of the charter school? absolutely. you can do a better job than we are doing. of course i could. i go in and speak to a group of teachers. i am looking at this part of the room. there were a hundred teachers in the room. i told them what we want to do. we have high expectations for our kids and want to create private school education for

free and raise the bar, rigorous curriculum, longer school day. when i finish i got a standing ovation by the teachers. one teacher ran up to me crying and said thank you for restoring the faith in teachers. came back week later, followed up on my same spiel and i got booed it by the same people. what happened? the teacher's union started spreading propaganda. your child won't be safe. you won't get paid what you were making before. it really turned a promising opportunity into something very negative. the next ten months we were in a battle with the teachers' union on whether or not we would allow them to preserve the status quo or try something different because children's lives are in the balance. they spent $750,000 to prevent

us from running the school as a new charter school. a la firm in the community gave us $500,000 pro bono legal services. we end a prevailing. here is where we are today. that high school underperforming 20% of seniors graduating and going on to college. the same group of kids, 80% graduating and going to four year college. 80%. so the point is don't tell me kids in certain neighborhoods can't learn. don't tell me your zip code determines your future. don't tell me if kids don't have access to high-quality education they cannot do equally as well or better than their counterparts in affluent areas. if the teachers union or any one prevents kids having that opportunity we will fight like crazy to do our part and that is what our commitment is about and why we need you to participate. let's talk about charter

schools. something they are the end all be all and others think they are overrated and not much better than public schools and in some cases worse. i have heard lots of people say if it is a charter school is automatically grade. not all private schools are charters and having you monitor bad charter schools. >> does everyone know what a charter school is? >> raise your hand if you don't know what a charter school is. >> charter school is a public school utilizing public taxpayer dollars but it is freed up from all the bureaucracy and walls and regulations most public schools are. it is run by its own board as opposed to the school board. the problem and a lot of the

debate in public education is people want to frame things on one extreme or the other. charter schools are the answer to all the ills or charter schools are terrible. the fact of the matter is children with the same broad brush strokes or teachers with the same broad brush strokes. you can't paint charter schools with the same broad brush strokes. there are some unbelievable charter schools in this country who are doing what traditional public school districts have never been able to do which is insuring a minority children are achieving at the highest level. they are closing the achievement gap that exists in this country between white and black kids and poor and rich kids. there also some extraordinarily bad charter schools. the problem we face right now is we have not been diligent about closing down charter schools because the whole notion, the

premise behind charter schools is higher degrees of authority on autonomy for higher degree of accountability. we have given the charter schools the authority and autonomy but don't have accountability meaning if you are not performing we will close you down. that is part of the problem that exists right now. people who want to say on average, that is -- the point is there are some amazing charter schools in this country who have figured out how to do this and do it extraordinarily well. we cannot mask the incredible results they have seen simply because there are poor performance was. we ought to be shutting down the poor performing ones and giving of a high performing once more resources so they can go to scale and serve more kids. >> my answer is simple too. charter schools are not the panacea. they are not. competition is a good thing.

we don't want school districts to run and challenge. when you create an environment that is competitive everyone gets better and tries harder and those who do well will attract more kids and those who won't do well are going to have less kids in terms of enrollment. you see that around the country. in california you have u shaped. you have some bad charters and great charters. they're the curve in california. a lot of bad ones. this was a regular school. pretty much the same and the high performing out spiked the other schools. the challenge for us is in california and anywhere we have 962 charters in california. the bad ones you have to close down. you cannot let the golan. if you do that all we would be talking about is the high performing charter schools and in our community our elementary

school we have 95% african-american kids in school in a poor neighborhood. 95%. it has the third highest test scores in the city. 95% african-american kids. what are we doing there? how do we get the opportunity to run the school? we got the opportunity because the school district said we don't know how to it to get black boys. they are poor. we are being honest. we don't know how to do it. can you do it? we felt don't kid need good teachers and high expectations? don't they need longer school days if they are further behind? do you need to use data to determine if kids are learning? it is not rocket science or a silver bullet as i finish most of my sentences. we created different environment in this community and now the

school -- michele talked about closing the achievement gap. this school has a reverse gap. the minority kids in this community are outperforming the white kid in the whole city. in a poor neighborhood. the one thing that would probably seal it for you folks who aren't aware if you go to a kindergarten classroom it will say outside the classroom class of 2027. it is the year they are graduating from college. you cannot tell these kids even though their parents and grandparents and great grandparents have never been to college you cannot tell these kids they are not going to college. they probably visited the clinton school more times than i have. take a college field trips every few weeks. that is what their future looks like. when you create the environment of high expectations and remove -- you create more freedom and autonomy that you don't have in school districts you get a different outcome and that is what we want. we want autonomy but also accountability to be held to a

standard and be accountable for what goes on. that is not what you see in most school districts around the country. our school, our teachers work longer school days happily. they volunteer. in a school district they can't work a longer day. they file a grievance if you ask them to stay if you minutes after school. i am done. >> when you are in the public arena and take strong stands and controversial stands you face criticism. that is true of anybody. you have come under criticism about what people have alleged about your performance as a teacher. i wanted to ask you about that and give you the opportunity to respond. >> hold on. before she does. you got to tell them about your

mom and your personality for criticism. then you can justify your tests for. >> my first year on the job in d.c. i made the decision that i was going to close 23 schools in the district. it was 15% -- if you want to become the least popular person in this city tell someone you are closing the school much less 23 schools. we announced this and the city went nuts and my mother was visiting and she woke up one morning and opened the washington post to a two page spread. pinpointing all the schools i was closing and turned on the tv and there were pictures of people picketing outside my office screaming at me and that sort of thing. i got home that night after lots of community meetings and walked in the door and she's at are you

ok? i said yes. i am fine. she said when you were little you never cared what people thought about you and i always thought you would grow up to be antisocial. but i see now that this is serving you well. hy said yes. it is interesting too because in the middle of my tenure there was a columnist at the washington post who wrote a piece about me and said i like michelle rhee. we are seeing good results. i just wish she would be nicer. i read the piece and called the guy up and said what is this all about? i feel if you were a little nicer than you could stay longer and staying longer is a good thing. just be a little nicer. i said you need to figure out

what you believe the most important characteristic of a school chancellor are. if you think it is being nice and friendly and accommodating are the most important things you should be advocating for my ouster. if you want warm and fuzzy i am not your girl. if you like the results and you think we are heading in the right direction would you be advocating is not for me to be nicer but for us as adults to put the personalities aside and actually focus on what we are producing for kids. what we're doing now is turning a blind eye to what is happening to kids every day in the classroom in the name of harmony among adults. if we are causing a little controversy, making the adults a little uncomfortable but the kids are better off than that is what we need to focus on.

about 20 years ago i taught elementary school in baltimore in my second and third year of teaching, i was fortunate enough to get with a group of students so i had some of them in the second grade and third grade. at the end of that third year as i was heading to graduate school my principles that i want to let you know that the kids knocked the test of the park. of the children you had in the second and third grade whereas they started out extraordinarily low test scores, 90% are scoring at the 90th percentile or above. that is great. put it on my resume. little did i know that 20 years later i would be, public

officials and people were combing my resume and said here are the statistics about how her kids did it. they wanted to know do you have the proof? back then we did have proof of that stuff. they called my principle to testify in front of city council. did you tell her that was the case? my principal said yes. they said do you have proved? she said no. they said do you have proved? i said no. this is what we both remembered. a few weeks ago someone found an old study that was done on a group of schools in baltimore and they said this shows that michelle rhee is lying because they pulled up the data from my school and looked at all of the children in the second and third grade. not just the kids in my school. and that group of kids saw growth but 90% were not in the

90th percentile. that proves she is a liar but it didn't. what was the case is they were looking at the entire grade of kids. not just the kids who were in my class. what baltimore told us if there was no way to choose the exact kids who were in my class. what is actually visible in those test scores is the fact that the group of children that went through the second and third grade the years i taught the second and third grade out of all of the schools in the treatment group and the control group, the group of kids we talk at our school started out with the lowest test scores when they began as second graders and ended up out of all the control and treatment groups as the highest scorers in reading and math. even though we can't pull the individual kids and show that, what is unequivocal is some of the kids that were in my

classroom saw unbelievable gains. from a public policy perspective this is one of the reasons it is so important, where we are now in being able to give teachers information and this report how much their kids are growing or not so it is not left to speculation or people's memory from 20 years ago that you have the evidence in front of you of whether or not you are moving the student achievement levels for the kids in your class. >> in california we have 300,000 teachers. we don't use data to determine whether teachers are teaching effectively. if you look at the top 10% of the 300,000, 30,000 teachers. if you look at the bottom 10% 30,000 teachers you can't tell who's who in california. you want your top teachers to mentor your bottom teachers to develop them but we don't allow

data to be used that way in california. that is why california is one of the worst performing states. our whole belief is you have to look at data and you don't evaluate every teacher on test scores. there has to be a mechanism to determine whether kids are learning and you can have a host of other ways to evaluate it teacher effectively. >> good discussion. it is your turn. those who have questions please raise your hands and we will get the microphone to you. hillary right here. >> my name is hillary and thank you for being here. my question is about parents. we talked a lot about teachers and holding them accountable and giving them resources. i know a few teachers in d.c..

despite their efforts sometimes they would have students that would fail and a lot of the challenges they ran into were the parents. where do you see the role of parents changing with new initiatives? >> it is very clear and i don't think anybody would argue with you that we need more parental involvement. we need parents to be engaged and when parents are engaged student learning is going to increase. anything school district can do that individual teachers can do to encourage more parents to come into the school and be involved is of critical importance. my worry is often that a lot of times in the education reform debate people say the reason kids in the inner-city is not doing well is their parents aren't involved and there's a

sort of blame game going on. parents were more involved kids would do better. i think that is extraordinarily problematic because we have in the last few months in this country seen some very stark examples of parents who have been trying to be very involved in their kids's education. if you saw the movie waiting for superman use of thousands of parents across the country desperate to get their children into a decent school and doing everything they can to make it happen. you had a group of parents in california who were the first parents who decided to use a new law the mayor helped put forward call the parent trigger which means if 51% of parents signed a petition they could force the restructuring of a school.

the last example is a mother in ohio who decided she had to falsify her residency document so that her kids could go to a safer higher performing schools. you have three examples of parents that are trying to get involved and look at what happened with each of these. in the first case we say i know you want your kid in a good school but there's no room for them here. the second group of parents were threatened with deportation and harassment and everything else because of the decision they made to pull the trigger. the third is thrown in jail. i don't think we are communicating to parents that we want them to be involved. what we are communicating as we would like to continue to blame you and you are better off -- we don't want your involvement. we can't dictate how parents are involved. we can't ask for them to be involved and then be that when they get involved because we

don't like the way they have chosen to do it. that is part of what we do through students' first. we are going to radicalize the moms of america and you want parents involved, i will get parents involved. when we make demands on the system you better be ready to deliver. [applause] >> let me follow up on the parent trigger that passed in california with 51%. do you see that as part of a national movement spreading to other states? >> absolutely. it has already spread to half a dozen other states. what it does is take the power and gives it to the parents. parents should be able to demand a good education for their children and often times that is not the case. california started it called parent revolution. california a group of people are talking about repealing it because they don't want parents

to have the power. the role the media plays is a critical role for the kids -- the role of media plays a critical role. are editorial board in sacramento is hammering away at everyone who is opposing apparent trigger because why would you not want parents to have the right like which affluent families to to send a kid to private school and give you can't afford it moved into a good neighborhood with a good public school and if you can't find one outside the city you move to another community. if not you will figure out how to use someone else to go into a good school. for neighborhoods we don't get that. our kids are trapped in bad schools. parent triggers start to level the playing field and it is spreading around the country. >> further questions? right here? hold on a second.

>> thank you. for being here. i am a clinton school student in my second beer and concurrent student at the college of public health here as well. your goal is to change the social environment within the school. we talk a lot about the determinant of all social environments not just within the school but surrounding the school. so i wanted to know where does community development fitted to your plant? who do you see influencing that so the community builds up as the schools are reformed? >> who are you asking that to? you guys heard of geoffrey canada of the harlem children's school. that is what your talking about. president obama has the promised

neighborhood initiative where you are trying to create an environment where schools are centers of communities and everything around it played a critical role. maybe colleges all the way through work development. in sacramento michelle and i met many years ago. i have an organization called st. hoped to revitalize inner-city communities through economic development, public education and the arts. that is a whole listing perspective and i grew up in a poor neighborhood so i knew schools are very important but i don't believe you can improve public education without economic development being part of the equation. if you don't figure out a way to create jobs and train people for the work force. if you don't figure out how to get your dollars you invest in those communities to circulate within the community it will be difficult. our goal is to revitalize the community. public education and economic development go hand in hand with

that. >> you have to tell your starbucks story. >> i will tell that at the end. >> i am an election commission. would you address voter apathy? i would like to tell you in arkansas school elections are held in the odd years. this is not tied in to who is running for governor or president. as an election commissioner i think school elections are the most important elections. but apathy if i can have one second in my county we have 80% voter registration. during the school election i have seen as few as 19 people vote. that is ridiculous. would you address voter apathy? >> i alluded to this earlier. part of the reason the school board governance structures are

so problematic is oftentimes very low turnout elections so you are talking about a very small number of people making the determination about who is on the school board which means not a lot of money for teachers' unions can influence those elections. the reason why that is problematic in a lot of ways is if you look at the vast majority of states across the country, the policies that govern staffing of schools and which kids and when are determined through the collective bargaining process. when you have school board members who are elected through union dollars you have the union on both sides of a bargaining table. if the union got me elected a won't go after the union for a better contract because i am relying on them to get me

reelected next time. that is problematic. we have to find a way to get the public more engaged in public education. you have got to know when your school board elections are and exactly what those people stand for and do they are going to stand for when it comes to running the school district. >> yes? let's have this question up front. >> i surge in city here. my question is programs like city air and teach for america often recruit a select group of students. how do we make sure all groups of students can serve their country? >> i love city year. >> how about that for an

endorsement? >> city year with a huge component of our success in washington d.c.. when i first got to the city i went to the opening ceremony and got to see the excitement and came back and talked to the city year folks and set i have an idea. i want everyone of my schools to have a member and they said that is interesting. we have a better idea. basically what they said was they had a new program they wanted to start. the school hotel program which clustered groups of city year corps members in individual failing schools to turnaround the culture and environment. they felt if we had 10 or 12 city year corps members all clustered together that could help change the culture of the school. we started that in d.c. and it had amazing impact on the schools that they were in. b.c. year corps members were there in the morning and late at night and tutoring kids during

the day and running after-school programs. it was unbelievable. one of the things that i found to be the most heartening was that the young people who had exposure to the city year folks aspired to be like them. ultimately we had people in our schools becoming city year corps members. that is the ideal scenario where young kids in school have exposure to programs like see the year. they see the power individual young folks can have on people like them and they want to contribute back to their community in the same type of program. >> we have a question. right here. >> i wanted to thank you guys for identifying the problems,

identifying the solutions and enacting those solutions so we can see how we can make a difference. i want to applaud you on that. my question is to the mayor. we recently had a school board issue in the little rock school district where our school board superintendent was pushed out. i was one of the leaders of the community involvement for the little rock school district for our students and over and over again my issue was we were missing the mark because students are doing better and achieving better with this current superintendent. i reached out to the mayor of little rock and the governor of arkansas and never heard from either of them and was disappointing. i want to know from you how can we press the mayor and our city and state government officials to be more involved in our education? we want to improve our economic standards but you can't do that without greater education.

tell me how we can do that. >> thank you for the question. the mayors and your governor have to be involved. if you didn't hear from them we have to wait for them to come out of city hall and one or two people get enough attention to take your whole group of people. at some point all of us want to solve problems. your mayor is a very committed person. i wish i had known this sooner because i would have made sure he followed up with you. i will make sure he follows up. that is my commitment. the second thing i want to say that is important is think about barack and the history of little rock 9. you guys have the richest history in the country. i got a chance in sacramento to hear one of the little rock 9 speak in sacramento.

and amazing lady, carlotta. amazing listening to her story. i have been in little rock a dozen times in my lifetime. every time i am here i rent a car and go to my hotel and at 11:00 i get in the car and drive out to central high school. and i just sit there and drive around the beautiful campus. the images and pictures come to life and you think of the battles that went on at that particular school so someone like me could come to an integrated school. in some cases we were better off without integration. i am not satisfied with that. the last thing i want to say to you is it is important to note, i challenge everyone here, you would think that results would

be enough. you said there were results occurring at that school. she entered washington d.c.. the worst urban school district in the country. turned it around in three years. had the biggest gains out of any urban school district in the country on math and english. double digits and could not continue her work. the interest groups, special interest groups and politics that go on oftentimes override the results and what should really matter. >> let's hear from elected official. the honorable patrick hayes, mayor of north little rock. >> welcome. i don't know how lucky we were. waiting on superman is not something i heard much of before the day before yesterday when

the two of view presented that video for that film and in addition had a panel discussion that was just after that you moderated and yet the other point as we go down the road a second before i get my question with adrian fannie who was your mayor, did not survive the election. someone quoted what he said afterwards in asking him to recall whether or not he had done anything different than the answer was no. are have three grandchildren, two in the public school system. i want to applaud you but also tell you how your heart goes out when you see that waiting on superman and you see where kids, parents are committed to their kids and at the same time you have a 400 vacancies and 20 or 30 spots. the lottery selected those kids.

we can't wait. my question is when will we have more general distribution to see waiting on superman and the second thing, all of us are concerned about where we are a the country and some of the fact that were cited in washington day before yesterday about how we are eighteenth, nineteen and twentieth and 20 first in terms of what is going on globally. we can't wait. when will we see waiting on superman and are we doing which is not good the rest of the way? welcome here. thank you. >> give mayor hazer round of applause. he came here just to be here today. is that your wife? awesome. thank you very much. i will deal with the first part. nehr hays participated in a

panel discussion in washington d.c. a couple days ago and came back just to be here. raise your hand if you have seen the movie waiting for superman. impressive. dawson. the director of inconvenient truth directed this film. he has the ability to take issues that are important but maybe not mainstream and making them relevant and a mainstream audience gets up and that happen with al gore in an inconvenience truth. he took education and took a complicated issue and brought it mainstream. it was in theaters for three months and it is fully distributed on dvd so anyone can get it. it is out and one of the things both of us are encouraging folks to do is have a viewing party at your home. invite people to your house and watch this movie and discuss it. the power of this movie will outrage you and you will be ready to join her organization

immediately. because this is what it is about. all of us collectively fighting for our children or somebody else's children even if we don't know who they are. is a tragedy what is happening in our country. that film is being distributed across the country. >> we are not competing with at the display to our education system versus another. one statistic if you haven't seen waiting for superman that is interesting is they tested kids in all the developed nations in mathematics. the u.s. was at the bottom in terms of how their test scores were. than they asked the kids how do you think you did on the test? how good do you think you are? u.s. kids number one. this shows we have a significant

problem and one problem we are facing with our culture is we are so busy trying to make children feel good about themselves that we are not actually spending the time building the skills so they are good at stuff. i have two little girls, 8 and 12 and they both play soccer. they suck at soccer. they take after their mother, not their stepfather to be on athletic skills. if you were to walk into their rooms you would see medals and trophies and ribbons. you would think i am raising the next mia hamm. is difficult to tell kids you're not so good. you have to practice every day and even if you do i can't guarantee you will ever be great. it is hard for them to reconcile that with all the medals and trophies. we have to regain our

competitive spirit in america. we have to. [applause] you have to work hard to be the best and we have to stop allowing the children of our country to be proud of mediocrity. that is the only way. [applause] >> question up here. >> thank you. i am a student at clinton's school. glad you guys are here to join us. i want to go back to teachers and results. you mentioned the need for good teachers with great results in our schools. my question is in a school where it is split between black kids and white kids with a minority

of other ethnicities, growing hispanic population, what does a good teacher look like in a school as diverse as that and how do you measure that? you talk about results but i am interested in hearing other ways mayor johnson mentioned earlier. how do you evaluate those teachers? >> it is important to note a teacher who is a great teacher doesn't look great -- but great teacher for white kid or an asian theodore anything else. great teachers set high expectations for children. they don't let children make excuses. they hold them to those expectations and give them what they need to be successful. children know when you believe in them and when you don't

believe in them. the thing that used to make me so mad when i was in dc every day is when kids would tell me stories of adults who were in the school who would say to them things like i get paid whether you are learning or not so what does it matter or you will never amount to anything. why should i waste my time? kids would come to me and tell me the adults in the building were saying these things to them. it is not rocket science. if you have high expectations for the kids. if you know that each child is an individual that you have to treat every child as an individual, communication, understanding what in gauges kids and what is interesting to them. all those things are what make a great teacher. at the end of the day the children will tell you without

any equivocation that what matters most to them is having a great teacher in the classroom every day. they are willing to put the other stuff aside in terms of what the school look like for the building or whether it has computers. if they have a great teacher they know someone cares about them and expect the best. >> i will add one quick -- shea talked-about high expectations. at teacher has to believe in the kids. you have to believe the kid can learn and that is where your high expectation comes in. the teacher believes in the kit and build a meaningful relationship that kid will do anything for that teacher. if the teacher raises the bar the kid will come. raise it-it will find a way. that meaningful relationship is so critical. that is what we don't have when we like. the other thing is these teachers that are really good our competitive. they want to determine if kids are learning and they have a

bowl and go after the goal. they own the accountability. teachers that are good are problem solvers. they figure there's a problem and i will solve it. if the kid doesn't come to school teacher's goal is for the kid to be at school 95% of the time the teacher will call home and visit. not because it is in their job description but they will get it done and find a way those 20 or 30 kids that are in their influence are going to learn. that is critical. we have kids that are in our charter school to take cellphone so the kids can call the cellphone number if they're trying to do their homework at 8:00 or 9:00. lot of kids don't have two parents in the household or the know-how to do algebra. that kid can call the teacher and the teachers available after 9:00 and there has been understands part of their job does not stop when they leave campus. it goes on. if kids are still behind saturday the teacher will find a

way to be with their family and go to school for a couple hours and go back -- that is what it takes. you do whatever it takes and that is the commitment. it is exhausting but they figure out away and don't make excuses. >> question right up here? bob has got it. >> thank you for coming. i am a first-year student. my question is about how we are going to incorporate the arts with in our district or within the school system. even in the city we find teachers teach to the test and there is low emphasis on other things that enhance the learning. how can we incorporate art or critical activities to enhance education?

>> you will hear from both of us that reading and math are important as science. we know that. we believe in the whole experience. art and physical education are important. arne duncan is talking about it. i believe the first thing to be cut in schools are art programs. what i have to do is figure out ways to supplement the normal school budget to make sure we are able to provide our young kids with meaningful experiences that are relevant because we don't all learn the same way. some people get math as their way and some use creative expression and learn how math connects the dots by looking at art and things like that. we have a program in sacramento called any given child. it is a partnership with the kennedy school. the kennedy school in d.c..

they are doing a pilot program in sacramento where we have arts curriculum in all our schools in sacramento. in a down budget, in a down economy with less resources because they know the value and i understand the value. the teachers love it. what we have shown if you have art in schools, attendance goes up for kids participating. kids do better academically. e immediately when they have a relevant education they can relate to. these young people become future patrons of the arts. it is a win/win. even if it is not a school budget with the chancellor did was amazing. they made a huge commitment on arts. >> it was interesting. my second year on the job we

were facing a budget deficit. it was $700 million across the city. everyone was trying to speculate what was going to get cut. the mayor, my boss at the time decided he was not going to touch the school budget. people went nuts. they said the schools make up a huge percentage of the city's budget. they have to shoulder their fair share of the burden. the mayor said no they don't. we are in the economic crisis that we are in in this country because of the irresponsibility of adults. we are not going to make up for this on the backs of children. it was not a popular stance to take because only 20% of the voting population had school-age kids but he believed it was the right thing to do and part of the reason was what we managed to do when we went through the school closure process is we had the same amount of money with

fewer schools to spread it over which meant every school for the first time in the history of washington d.c. had an art teacher and music teacher and librarian and a nurse. by saying it is not an option whether you have an art teacher. it won't be dependent on whether you are a wealthy school and cannot hold an auction and raise money to hire one. every child in the city must have access to a broad based curriculum. art is not an extracurricular activity. every child should have access to everything. [applause] >> where was the student who asked about holistic education? there you are. she wanted me to tell this story. it is black history month. rate your hand if you are wary is black history month. a smart audience.

in our community we were trying to get a coffee house to come in. i called magic johnson. i played in the nba in another lifetime. i called magic johnson and said it los angeles you have a starbucks in a poor part of l a. how did you do it? he said i called the ceo of starbucks, howard schultz. he did not know magic. this is magic for real? howard is like i am a huge fan of yours. they went back and forth on pleasant stuff for a minute and magic says i need you to bring a starbucks in 2 l a. that changed the conversation. howard was like i used to love you and wish you could stay. that hook shot in may and beating larry bird is great but

i need you to bring a starbucks in to l.a.. magic, i got another call. can i call you back in a week or two? two week later he called back and you have a great smile and you are so charismatic and you beat the boston celtics and i won a lot of money on you. and you got big feet. that is fine, i need a starbucks in l.a.. howard says canada is something off the record? magic says of course. now i am telling you off the record what he told me of the record. howard schultz said off the record i had my team to a marketing analysis of the community you are talking about and the demographic and profile of the starbucks coffee drinker doesn't fit the community that you want me to go into. magic says give me a little

more. howard schultz says you got a lot of black people and they don't drink coffee. magic without missing a beat set i appreciate your honesty. let me know the next time you are in l.a.. six months later howard schultz called magic and magic takes him into a theater called the magic johnson sony theater. they stand in the lobby and magic points to the concession stand and says look at those black people. they eat popcorn, they drink soda, they like race and that's. howard says i see where you are going with this. howard says to magic okay, if you want to do a wager let's find out if black people drink coffee together. howard says it cost a million dollars to do a new store. i will put up $500,000 and you put up 500. we will find out together whether or not black people

drink coffee. magic thought about it and said okay. howard said one other thing. i will work on the business operation aspect of this partnership because that is what we do well and you work on the community and out reach because that is an area you are familiar with the we play to our strengths like a good team. the coffee margin is not little. is big. typically a starbucks store takes four years to get its full return on its investment. four years. this store six months. magic gets a call six months later. i got good news and better news. magic says what is the good news? the good news is we made our million dollars back in six months. what is the better news? black people drink coffee. we are going to offer 27 more starbucks around the country. what is the moral of this story

on black history month? people in every neighborhood want the same thing everybody else wants. they want good schools and safe streets and teachers who care and they want jobs. and black people want coffee. [applause] >> we talked about the arts. i want to give you a name. back to sacramento. go on the web site and look up t thea foundation. if you can incorporate that into your program is a marvelous organization that does exactly what you were trying to do. ladies and gentlemen, let's thank michelle rhee and kevin johnson. [applause]

[applause] >> washington journal wraps up its series on medicare. today we talk with a health policy professor about medicare's cost and attempts to change the system at 7:15 eastern. on booktv prime time fares and festivals. at 8:00 steven more on the big debate. public unions good or bad for america? they spoke at freedom fest in las vegas. ..

>> welcome to the stage today a monk, a nun and a college professor, not professions we typically associate with widespread social change and political renovation. but i would suggest to you that these individuals from their cloistered positions have affected more positive change in

our lives than many who have devoted their careers to public service in the traditional manner. why is this so? my first inkling, my first inkling of an answer came while reading sister helen as she described a day in june 1980 that would change her life. she was listening to sister maria as she lectured to her community, and she was urging, and she was urging direct action with the poor. within the year sister helen had moved from a lakefront suburb into the st. thomas housing project in new orleans where she began her work on death row. it was about this experience that she would later write, "better i decide to try to help ten real, hurting people or nine or one than to be overwhelmed

and withdraw and do nothing, or write an academic paper on the problem of evil." i would suggest that we know and respect sister helen now because she has avoided that academic paper and embraced instead the ten real, hurting people, a number that has grown steadily and shows no signs of slowing. and because we know how deeply dr. king weighed the words that he spoke in public, we are mightily impressed to learn that he turned to professor harding to craft the speech that outlined king's opposition to the war in vietnam, one of the landmark statements on nonviolence in american history. but how many of us know the following words of professor harding which describe a conversation he had with a young man, articulate and intelligent, who was bent on surviving the

tough neighborhood in boston where he'd grown up? this young man told professor harding that what he needed were living human sign posts to help him find his way. and professor harding's response is emblematic, i believe, of his life. "i have never forgotten these words," professor harding writes, "and these concessions seem to ask us not only to be sign posts, but to introduce our students to other living signs who may be able to help them find the way." "they need to see and know the lives of women and men who provide intimations of their human grandeur." to all of his students who number now in the thousands, professor harding has served as such a sign post, and i would suggest that our stage today is

brimming with such sign posts. i first saw his holiness in 1979 when i was a young graduate student at the university of virginia. and since then i have read his books, attended his teachings and generally tried to understand the great compassion and generosity that illuminate his work in our world. you can open many of his books randomly and find passages that clarify and illuminate. here is a passage from a recent collection. "nonviolence is not limited to an absence of violence, for it is a matter of an active attitude, motivated by the wish to do others good." "it is equivalent to altruism." altruism, which defines all of our panelists, is a form of

nonviolence. it is a formula both clear and profound, and these are the two qualities -- clarity and profundity -- that i most associate with his holiness. so our panelists agree, happiness depends on developing the kind of warm heart that will recognize human suffering wherever we might find it and on developing the capacity to declare this suffering intolerable. and, of course, the spirit that finds this suffering intolerable rises from the spirit of nonviolence. our three panelists have all devoted their lives to this principle, and i am anxious -- as i know you are -- to hear their advice on how we might incorporate something of this in our own lives. it is a great honor to present to you once again professor vincent harding, sister helen

prejean and his holiness, the 14th dalai lama. [applause] now, um, a word about how we intend to operate here today in this conversation. um, i have spoken to sister helen and vincent harding, and what we will do is allow our panelists to talk each for two or three minutes about their own personal path to the stance of nonviolence and the particular role that nonviolence plays in what they do in the world. um, we will then follow that up with questions and comments, and then, and then at the end we will have a one minute or so summary from be each of the

panelists, and i am certain that we will all be, by the that -- that time, greatly enlightened. we would like to start, of course, with his holiness. if you could talk for a couple of minutes about your own personal path to nonviolence, and then sister helen and vip sent hard -- vincent harding. [speaking in native tongue] >> good morning, everybody. >> good morning. >> indeed, i'm very happy. this first, i think, i'm in this city. so this morning i found because i get up early morning, so i can get time almost at dawn some

birds singing. i like big city, very beautiful, very beautiful. so i'm very happy. [laughter] thank you. and then opportunity to share my own experience. so now on nonviolence. firstly, we human beings as social animals. so individual sort of survival of depend on the rest of the community. so there must be some sort of force in our emotion to bring together. so that's compassion, human

compassion. then, secondly, the way our life start. we come from our mother. and not like some other species, like some turtle, their mother must lay down, they're dead -- [inaudible] then left. lay egg, then left. no need mothers care after because they themselves have to survive by themselves. we not like that. like some other mammals at the young age their survival entirely depend on others care. and our case and many mammals

their survival fend entirely -- depend entirely for the affection and caring by the mother. so our life start that way. therefore, i consider basic human nature is more gentleness. of course, depression also part of our life because of our intellects and because of greed. and some other different emotion bring us extra ability so that use control others. however, in our -- now recording medicali decisions -- scientists often anger, fear very bad for our health.

compassionate mind, warm heartedness very good for our health. so that also confirm our basic nature is more gentleness. so positive mind, emotions goes very, very well with our body. the other emotion not go very well with our body. now violence and nonviolence although i think there are many different level of action, physical action, verbal action, mental action, but generally and any way i think violence and nonviolence is action. every human action, those effective action, must come through motivation. so any action motivated by

compassion, sense of affection is nonviolence. any action whether verbal action or physical action out of hatred, out of anger, out of jealousy, out of whatever this negative feeling, that, essentially, violence. so miser believe in order to promote nonviolence, we have to deal at emotional levels. we should, we should make -- the compassionate mind is very good for the society, very good for the family, very good for individual. to start we motions such as jealousy, suspicion, fear,

hatred, anger, these are very bad for the society, the family and also more on individuals. so that's my way to promote nonviolence. stress under motivation. so, now, that's it. >> finished. >> thank you, thank you. [applause] [laughter] >> my path awakening to nonviolence or what i call, what gandhi calls soul force resistance to what is wrong, trying to help create what is

new and not to be passive and overwhelmed. um, catholic nun, grew up with a great mom and daddy. i wasn't just a little egg placed in the nest and then they left. great mom and daddy, catholic mom and daddy in baton rouge, louisiana. and to give our life over to god was prized in our family, and i became a nun, great support. mom and daddy, my sister mary ann sitting in here today. and i became nun, and the spir call callty -- spirituality out of the way i was trying to follow jesus was the spirituality that really separated the world. everybody's trying to get to heaven. so if people have to suffer here, well, one day they can have a great crown in heaven. and i was separated. we became nuns and cloistered ourselves, i was separated from the world. and living out in the suburbs of new orleans --

[inaudible conversations] >> and living out in the suburbs, my father had been a successful lawyer. so in new orleans ten major housing projects in the inner city of struggling african-american people, and i had only known african-american people growing up as our servants. i didn't even know the last names of the woman who worked in the house, the man who worked in the yard. so the awakening and the awakening, the spiritual awakening happened through coming to understand who jesus was. and, actually, through the god revealed in the hebrew testament of the burning bush. that one of the first revelations in the hebrew scriptures of the heart of god is in the burning bush to moses, "i have heard the cry of my people." and i realized that here i was in another world, here was the

inner city, and i woke up. and the awakening was such a grace. i'm grateful to this moment that i woke up. and when what you talk about, your holiness, the motivation to act. because consciousness, when my consciousness changed and i realized i don't even know those people, i moved, i acted and lived in the presence of african-american people in the st. thomas housing project who became my teachers. and once you get in this river as dr. harding loves to write about, once you get in the currents then one day coming out of the adult learning center where i was helping people to get their ge ds realized the miserable state of education for poor african-american people in public schools. people were coming into the adult learning center, juniors in high school, and couldn't read a third grade -- what is going to happen to these kids, and why had i been so

privileged? why was i so blessed? and so i began to act. so in coming out one day somebody said, hey, sister helen, you want to write a letter to someone on death row in louisiana? i didn't even know much about the death penalty. and i never dreamed they were going to kill the person because we, there'd been kind of a hiatus on executions for over 20 years. so i wrote a letter. and he wrote back. his name was patrick sonia, and he changed my life forever because two and a half years later i am in the killing chamber when the state of louisiana electrocuted him to death. and he, in compassion for me, had said, sister, you can't be there at the end because it could scar you. and i said, strength, i said, no, patrick. i don't know what it'll do to

me, but you are not going to die -- [inaudible conversations] you're not going to die without a loving face which was his dignity. i said, i'll be the face of christ for you. they killed him in front of my eyes. i left the execution chamber. it was in the middle of the night in louisiana. i vomited. i had never seen a human being killed. and that motivation, that fire, i realized at that moment it was in the dark, and i thought to myself people are never going to see this. when the state kills, it's a secret ritual, behind prison

walls. the people don't see or hear the last words. they don't see it. so they're caught in, oh, he did this terrible crime, he deserves to die. and my mission was born at that moment. i must tell the story to awaken people, to bring them close to this. then that brings us to the other side was he and his brother had done an unspeakably terrible crime. they killed two innocent teenage kids in cold blood, shot them in the back of the head. every parent's worst nightmare of their kids going to a football game and never being seen alive again. [inaudible conversations] and when i knew the crime, my impulse was to reach out to the families, and i held back because i thought they're not going to want to see me. and i was wrong about that.

it was a big mistake i made. and when i did meet them, the father of the boy, david, who had been killed said to me, sister, you can't leave the pressure on us to be for the death penalty, and i've had nobody to talk to. where have you been? it was a -- [inaudible conversations] [laughter] >> anyway, so lloyd he blank said to me, where have you been. so he invited me to come and pray with him. and through this man, he's the hero of "dead man walking." can i'm the storyteller, and i

made some mistakes. this father shared his inner journey of at fist trying to go -- at first trying to go to the place, because everybody was saying that to him, of wanting to see patrick sonia dead, wanting to see his brother dead as well, and he said, but i didn't like the way it made me feel when i went to that place of hatred and bitterness. and then i said to myself, they killed our son, but i'm not gonna let them kill me. i'm going to do what jesus said, and he said his -- he set his face to go on the road of forgiveness. around this country telling that story it's very important in this journey when we deal with our outrage that we feel when incident people have been ripped from life, it's important to stand in the outrage, feel the outrage, but then look past to

try to see what as a society are we going to do, how are we going to act now? and i'll end with this because i know we just have a short period to get started, but i've been in the killing chamber in texas that's killed over 450 human beings in the killing chamber in texas. and there are three witnessing chambers. and one is for the 12 people from the state that watch the killing, one is reserved for the victim's family that sends a representative, looks down on the gurney, and the third witnessing place is where families and where mothers have stood with their hands against the glass to watch as the state kill their child. and the question is, where does it take us? where does the imitation of violence take us as a society? so that's my little opening. >> thank you, sister helen. [applause]

>> as the oldest member of this panel, i am going to take the liberty that age allows of being disobedient. [laughter] because i'm going to start not with the path of my taking nonviolence, but i want to start off by giving great thanks for the path that sidney burris took to brick us to this place -- bring us to this place. >> yes. [applause]

>> when i heard the story of how long he has been working on making this a possibility, i was deeply grateful, and i knew that i needed to testify to that. so, sidney, forgive me for being an elderly disobedient one, but that's how i needed to start. [laughter] >> thank you. >> but to go to my assignment, i want to say that my path to the way of nonviolence was the path that was suggested by his holiness. the a path that was developed, first, by the love of a single mother, a recently-divorced mother who insisted on letting

me know that i was loved, that she expected great things of me and who made great sacrifices for me. i see that as being essential to the starting of my own path. my path was also lined with teachers in public school who literally loved me. who cared about me. who demanded great things of me. and who pushed me when i was not ready to know that i could go toward. my pathway to nonviolence was

also opened up by a little congregation of church people in harlem in new york. of church people -- church people who took me into their arms and taught me what they knew and encouraged me to explore the way of faith, the way of the teachings of jesus, the way of love. my path was deeply affected by the fact that in my early 20s i was drafted into the army of the united states of america. and it was the first time that i was away from mother, from

church, from home community for any significant period of time. and in that experience of solitude i began to explore more fully the teachings of, especially, the new testament reading and all the time that basic training gives you to be doing nothing. i took the nothing time and tried to make something out of it by reading the things that people had told me about but that i'd never studied myself. and in the process of that reading i came in touch with this magnificent person, jesus of nazareth. and i began to be very deeply attracted to him and to his life

and to what that life meant. and it was in the course of that basic training time when i was studying and learning about jesus of nazareth that i was also at the same moment really enjoying basic training. because i was an outdoor kind of person, i loved to run, i loved to be around exercise, practice, and i surprised myself by really enjoying learning how to fire a rifle. and learning how to fire it with great accuracy. [inaudible conversations] and it was one morning out at fort dix, new jersey, down on my belly firing the rifle at the target, hitting it rather well,

enjoying myself that i almost heard a voice saying to me, "oh, vincent, you're enjoying this, are you?" "do you think that's why the army is paying all this money, so that you could enjoy this?" ? the voice said, no, vincent. you are being taught how to kill a man without him even being able to see you. what does your jesus have to do with that? it was at that same period that i was being taught how to use a bayonet, that long, sharp knife at the end of a rifle that was used in those days. and i was trained how to immediately slash out another human being's bowels without him

even knowing what was happening to himment and again, in strange ways in that moment i heard the song that i had been singing in my church school for many, many years, "jesus loves the little children." and, again, a voice came to me saying, "so that's it; jesus loved the little children, all the children of the world, vincent." but when they grow up and when your government tells you that they are your enemies, jesus loves the little children, but when they grow up, you're going to cut their guts out because your government says that that's what you need to do. and from that moment on, i began wrestling with myself and wrestling with the meaning of

this jesus and wrestling with the idea that i as his follower was giving myself over to that kind of madness. and so i from that point, essentially, became a conscientious objector. and it was in the process -- ms [applause] it was in that process after i got out of the army that i met a church group that actually seemed to take jesus seriously on this matter of loving the enemy. i became a part for a good while of the men no night churches in this country. and it was in the course of that that my late wife and i went south to work with martin luther

king jr. and the wonderful young people of the student nonviolent coordinating committee. and king and the young people invited me in to say, essentially, you have begun to think about this matter of nonviolence already. come and help us teach it, practice it, work with it here in the south. that was the beginning of my pathway. i met many magnificent human beings who without any great study, any great teaching came from the depths of their hearts to know that they could never create a new american society if they allowed hatred and anger to overcome them even though they

were understandably filled with, in a sense, the right to be angry and to have faith. but they decided following the teachings of king and gandhi that they wanted a new society where hatred and anger would not rule our way. that group of people took me in, and i became part of that movement for a new society, and i'm still on that path now coming close to my 80th year. [applause] >> thank you. thank you very much, professor harden, sister helen, your holiness. um, you mentioned something in your last comment, professor harding, that i would like to follow up on and have all of our

panelists respond to it. um, his holiness will recognize his quotation. tibetanss typically say my enemy, my teacher, which is another way, the tibetan way of saying that it's important that we learn how to love our enemies. what i would like to hear all three of you comment on, how does an engagement with the opposing perspective actually cause us to strengthen our practice of nonviolence? your holiness? if you could talk about that. [inaudible conversations] >> would you repeat that question, please? >> sure, absolutely. tibetans have a saying, "my enemy, my teacher," meaning that as long as we're around people that we love and adore, we learn no lessons. it's only when we're around the

enemy that we actually get to watch hatred and anger work. and at that point we can attack it and understand how to manage it. so my question is, in the each of your experiences how does, how does and gaugement with -- an engagement with, "the enemy" actually strengthen your practice of nonviolence? >> firstly, i want to express see you both -- [inaudible] [speaking in native tongue] and determination to help, to save poor e people and also -- [inaudible] this sort of conviction, this sort of strength come from jesus

christ, christianity. so this come from very clearly all major -- [inaudible] have same potential to bring such a wonderful people. so because one of my commitment is emotion of religious harmony, in order to deal with that -- [applause] it is very important to know the value of potential of that teaching. then you can develop genuine respect, admiration. and that way harmony, so i recent you for not just a scholar way, but your own

experience to make clear, sorry, very much appreciate. now, the enemy is your best teacher. listen, this is actually one buddhist test. eighth century, one indian scholar express that, and then further in many literature is mentioned that so we tibetanss simply to follow these purpose. now, firstly, the concept of enemy is based on others' attitude.

this person's attitude towards me is very friendly, very nice and helpful. so we call it friend. close. this person curse me probably and even harming to me, even create some danger for my life. so we call enemy. not on the basis of that person himself or herself. because when we are young we have no idea this is my enemy, this is my friend. now there are two compassion, two level of compassion. or affection. one oriented out of attitude or

action. mainly that kind of compassion is mainly biological factor, this person useful for me, helpful for me and then -- [inaudible] this harmful to me. so put some of the other -- [inaudible] so that kind of compassion, biological factor ask mainly orr -- and mainly oriented others' attitude, others' action to have compassion, it cannot extend towards your enemy. now another level of compassion. not oriented others' attitude or actions, but rather people themselves or even --

[inaudible] so now here, to differences -- no differences. this group as enemy, this group as a friend. on the basic level of human being, same. they both want happiness. both have right to achieve that just like me. and both -- [inaudible] so from that unking -- understand develop regardless point of view. that is second level of compassion. all of the emphasis is on -- [inaudible] so now you need effort to develop that compassion, attitude towards your enemy.

so the obstacle is hatred, anger. now, that sort of opposition, hatred and anger, is patience, toleration, forgiveness. now in order to practice forgiveness, tolerance, you need someone who create trouble. [laughter] so, for example, christian practitioner. you never feel some negative thing towards jesus christ, so there's no possibility to practice forgiveness towards jesus christ. i am buddhist. towards buddha, no, no because -- no chance, no possibility. to feel sort of, to practice of tolerance with buddha. no. with my mother, no. [laughter]

because neutral people also know only these people who create trouble for you, these are the really the testing my practice. so i need practice of tolerance and forgiveness in order to practice ma, you need opportunity -- practice that, you need opportunity. that opportunity is by your enemy. so there that viewpoint very, very important practice. can learn only with the help of endmy. so from that viewpoint, enemy is your best teacher. [applause] so that way -- >> sister helen -- oh, excuse me. go ahead, your holiness. >> then i think i want to make

clear some people, including tibetans, also including buddhists also sometimes feel be you really forgive, forgiveness to your enemy regardless they are sort of bad sort of attitude, then that means almost you bow down. bow down the enemy. this is not the case. [laughter] we have to make distinction. [inaudible] is concerned, it deserve our love, our compassion, our sense of concern. as far as action is concerned, if necessary, we have to take countermeasure to oppose, to

stop their wrongdoing. since you develop sense of concern of well being of that person who consider enemy, therefore, if you have genuine sense of concern of that person, then we have to make effort to stop their wrongdoing because ultimately their wrongdoing, ultimately, harm negative sort of consequences to themselves. therefore, concern of their well being try to stop their wrongdoing. so action is concerned if necessary, we have to oppose. but -- [inaudible] we must give their compassion so there are a distinction. [applause]

>> i think this not just word. one case, even chinese communist hard liners who really carry bruisallist -- brutalist policy, these spring, we respect them. we deliberately try to promote our sense of well being, our sense to compassion. but as far as action is concerned, sometimes we criticize and sort of -- a certain way. and any possibility we oppose their action. so since we oppose their action, they consider me as a troublemaker for that. [laughter]

so sometimes i joke in telling people since they consider me as a troublemaker, so in order to justify their accusation, i have to create a little problem. [laughter] so now important is this practice. immense benefit to yourself. that i think very porn. very important. i always telling people the practice of compassion, some people feel something holy, something good for other but not necessarily to yourself. this totally wrong. of course, in the afternoon i will -- >> right. [laughter] thank you, your holiness. sister helen, keeping on this,

you know, theme of my enemy, my teacher, um, i was struck by reading, um, the death of innocence and "dead man walking," for that matter, you have a kind of a reverse example that i would like to hear you talk about. when you started dealing with the victims' families, you became the enemy because you had been an advocate for the, um, for the, you know, murderer. i would like to hear you talk about how you handled that particular position of which you found yourself as being the enemy of the bereaved family. >> this is a very interesting little current in the river to be talking about, the enemy as teacher, because when i first visited a man on death row who had done this unspeakable murder, i didn't know anything. and instinctively when i was

walking in the prison for the first time, the guards were very, like, matter of fact, kind of hard. , woman on the tier, waiting -- wait in there, we'll get your man. and there was an instinct to kind of treat them as the enemy, because they're the ones who imprison, assign death row. and then i suddenly realized, the guards whose job it is to work in this prison and even eventually to carry out the execution are not the enemy. and the same thing with the victims' families. so inn stintly -- instinctively see opposition come from the victims. and because i didn't reach out to them as i should have from the beginning, harsh letters written about me, that sister prejean, she doesn't care about victims. and i would always try to go inside myself. i used the image of, like, my fingers moving on a piece of

cloth to see if there were any tears or where my conscious, where guilt, where were they right? and i knew that they were right because i had reached out to them -- i hadn't reached out to them right away. and so then what happened inside me with that was i need to be there for them. if they reject me and are angry at me because they're put on a tremendous seesaw in society, the victims' families that have been promised the loss that you have had of your loved one, what we're going to do for you in order to honor your dead loved one is that we are going to kill the one who killed your child, and you will get to watch, and that is how we will honor you. they are very much placed on this seesaw. they are in all these cultural currents that says if you really love your child, you want to see

the enemy dead. and we're going to do that for you. so anybody who says, oh, i'm not for the death penalty, so they're coming at it from -- but i'm acting defensively about them because i go, oh, they're opposed to me. and it was a guilt because i hadn't reached out. and what his holiness just said, that action when you put yourself out there to go to them, so when i went to visit the man whose son had been killed, when i walked in his shoes, when i heard his story, when i went to these groups, murder victims' family groups who were all talking about their pain, i realized something. all of them were talking about how everybody leaves them alone because they don't know what to do with their pain. so they're being shun inside a way.

one man said to me he'd lost his daughter who was killed. he said, sister, if you want to see a room empty out, just let me walk into it. because everyone knows my daughter was killed, and people don't know what to say to people in great pain. and so it was just one act after i got to know lloyd and the victims' families to start a group to help murder victims' families for people to accompany them in their pain. it's one act i didn't change everything. but i knew my relationship with the family who had allowed me to come into their lives needed to be intact, and i needed to continue to be faithful to friendship with them. and then to start a group. one thing, a lot of times when i'm talking to young people,

they go where are we ever going to pick up this whole world? and it's almost like the minute you put your hand on the rope and begin to pull, whoever it's with who's hurting the life energy and compassion flows through us. so that's one response, sidney, to that. and -- >> yeah. good. >> yeah. [applause] >> professor harding, um, i have always been struck, um, by longevity of all types. and, clearly, you're a living example of that. and when i was able to hear you speak yesterday about traveling down into the south in 1958, um, with a religious group composed of blacks and whites, um, and

when i think about, um, your initial engagement with dr. king in '58, you met him in montgomery, alabama, and then i fast forward ahead nine years to when he gets in touch with you and says he wants to come out against the vietnam war, um, with a major speech, um, in riverside, in riverside church in new york city, i'm struck by the fact that as an american, as an african-american you had seen racism of all sorts, you have seen, you had seen bigotry, you had been confronted with violence of, um, every imaginable stripe. and yet to hear you speak, to hear your message you are clearly one of the most gentle people i have ever confronted.

what i would like for you to share with us is how you did that. how did you confront that kind of hatred, and it was, it was highly organized hatred, and it had the power of the government behind it at times. and just as, um, the victims' family -- the victim's family is out there alone, you too were out there alone. how did you stop yourself from hardening into the easy solution of hatred and animusty towards your enemies. -- animosity towards your enemies? >> sidney, that's not a question that one leaps into quickly or easily. i think it goes back to the

initial statement that i was making. and that is that i was never in any of these situations of danger, of fear, of hatred, i was never sensing that i was alone. for one thing, i was coming as someone deeply fortified by the love that i had received all my life. i was also coming especially in the southern situations that i was a part of, i was surrounded by other people who were loving

and concerned and convinced that we had to do something to bring about a new society. in the sense we did not have time to allow hatred to take its place in our presence because we were busy dreaming this. this is what our imagination and what our energy had to be given to; that at some time 50 years after our struggle we would one day be in the place that had never dreamed that it would house the dalai lama, that it would have black students and

faculty, not enough of either but still some of both. [laughter] [applause] what i was saying about the dream of the possibility of what this country could be, what this south could be, what we together could be, hatred would only push us off that forward path. and so we couldn't afford, i couldn't afford -- that was not what i was there for. i knew that there was something else that i was there for, and i knew as i said that i was not alone, and i knew that the ancestors were with me, that the

spirit was with me, that all sort of magnificent powers that i cannot even name were with me because i was trying to be involved in a work for our building of our humanity. and i am deeply convinced now even more than i was then that when we are involved and commit ourselves to the building of humanity, then all kinds of forces that we never dreamed could be available to us become available to us, and we are able to do much more than we ever dreamed we would be able to do including not giving in to hatred. [applause] >> thank you.

back to helen. >> i think as we hear this seeing how our american society works nobody ever makes a statement even when they kill someone in the killing chamber, we are killing an enemy tonight. there are euphemisms, different words are used. is we're doing justice. and when we look at the struggle with our enemy, who ever names an enemy? immigrants coming from if mexico, are these the enemy? nobody says these are enemy. they say they're coming to get our job, or these people are the criminal element. fear is what is underneath so much in our society. [applause] [inaudible conversations]