can use the whole manuscript to get an idea what life was like under morgan's command. >> booktv was in frankfurt, kentucky as part of our cities for where we visit several southeastern cities over the next few months to bring you a taste of their literary history and culture. apparent frankfurt, kentucky. for more information on this and events from other cities is that c-span.org/localcontent. >> coming up next on booktv from the 2011 harlem book fair panel discussion on the history of african-american humor. it is about an hour and 15 minutes. let me say good afternoon to all of you and i want to welcome you to this afternoon's session called "on the real >> i want to welcome you to a real side answer to african harbor.

i am carlton e. brown. obviously in atlanta, we are very pleased to be part of this session. we are a comprehensive research university with a number of disciplines and certainly some holdings that connect us directly to the harlem book fair. we have degree programs through the doctoral degree and african-american studies. and a significant program in english and language arts. we have a number of people with us today and i want to get right down to our business here so join me in welcoming our colleagues here. i will begin with broadcast personality and social commentator sabrina lamb, she is the platform. she is the author of a kettle full of soldiers left beat marc on my forehead. some of you may recall her

antics as a stand-up comedian on girls' night out or cover articles from essence magazine, her wit and obvious satire have propelled her into the front row of up and coming comedic novelists and i am struck by this idea of vultures leaving feat marked on my forehead. she is as much a pulse point for national news and perspective as would be any network news anchor and probably a lot more fun and entertaining with all deference to ms. bell vote --malveaux. every english teacher the debt of gratitude to jam donaldson, author of converate is not a word. as a former english teacher i am appreciative of her work. you likely no or may have

received thousands of chain e-mails from her web site the pot kettle mess which led to the controversial but highly new tv show we got to do better with comedian charlie murphy. her prospectors on black america is at least as provocative. some would say wrong. wherever you stand on her musings she makes it clear there we are in this together. third, if it is about african-americans and is funny and you saw it on tv there is a very strong possibility that larry wilmore's imprint is on it somewhere. a longtime fixture in hollywood you know his work as a writer and producer of programs including in living color, fresh prince of bel air, the jamie foxx show and an animated comedy, the pgas with eddie

murphy but don't presume he has been boxed into black hollywood. he has produced episodes of the office and appears regularly on the daily show. you also may have seen him in our love you, man and denver schmucks. his book, i would rather have casinos -- >> rather we got casinos. >> what? we got casinos. we printed it wrong here. which is even better. offers an insider's view of the fate of blacks in racist america. finally if there's anyone in america who should be considered the curator, even the conservative of african-american literacy and humor it is mel watkins. [applause]

he served as a writer and editor for the sunday book review from 64-85. he is the critic, commentator and champion of black art and culture from lincoln parish to richard pryor to chris rock. stemming from his 1979 receipt of the police up patterson's scholarship, mel watkins in 1994 compiled research on a social history of african-american, the into the seminal work on the real side:laughing, lying and signifying:the underground tradition of african-american humor that transformed american culture. of course, that is the work of paul four of these individuals that bring the surge today to get a good look at the real side. this has been a fairly sedate venture so far today and i am expecting we are going to change

that a little bit so i am going to start with some definition, xa with mel watkins and let the the other panelists talk after that. you trace the african-american humor back to slavery but when history is taught, we see bondage, shackles and receive force labor and savage brutality. where's the punchline? >> the punchline is that african slaves when they were initially brought here came from a continent where there was an oral tradition and scandalous talk criticizing others was a part of that culture. central part of the history of and let the other panelists these were essentially african wrappers. they would be troubadours from

europe. take comment on the society. they spoke before the kings of various african nations and added humor or humorously criticized. the african slaves brought that tradition with them. when you get to america and have them a bondage situation you have an entirely different kind of the emergence of that humor. in africa they could speak about whatever they wanted. here they couldn't. that is why in the title of the book the initial title was an effort in -- history of african-american humor. i spoke about the underground nature of african-american humor because one of the most prominent characteristics of african-american humor at the outset was it was under ground. it was hidden. africans could not say what they want. the satirical humor they brought with them, satirical, verbal,

descriptions or commentary of life as they saw it had to be silenced here. they could not do that. it could mean death, being sold. very tragic consequences so the tumor was hidden. what happened was you get folk tales. c very interesting folk tales coming out where the humor becomes indirect. it becomes humor that is delivered in a different way. one of the main sources of that humor are the old tales where the slave pretends to be ignorant, pretends to be naive but in fact is using it to criticize the master. later on i will read something from that. one of the jokes that illustrates that. you had the slavery situation. you had black attempting to continue the oral tradition of

criticizing, observing what was going on and the pretense of being naive and white face or black face, performing on stage in blackface and pretending to be black. again the pretense went on that the presentation that was given by these comics was that blacks were ignorant, stupid, unable to deal with life in a serious manner and that they were funny. they were funny because they were black. that was the predominant presentation or portrayal of blacks at this point. blacks after slavery eventually see themselves. here is where we begin to seek african-american humor began to

emerge. these performers like ernest hogan and various other performers come along and start real satire to this humor which before only portrayed or presented blacks as being simple-minded, incapable of thinking and funny because they were stupid. now you have a gradual change around 1900. from that you get various other comedians coming out. the humor changes and public face of the humor begins to change. blackface makeup begins to disappear. you have the presentation of blacks as being stupid in movies and so forth. in silent movies, the ignorant black, various other actors and actresses coming along later. you had hattie mcdaniel and comic servants that came along. you still had blacks portrayed

as submissive, ignorant and incapable of taking part in american life. wasn't until the 1950s that african-american humor starts to emerge as we know it now it you have red fox. the paul casey russell and others. these people start to deal with the humor that had been hidden all along. that tumor was alive in african-american communities but had not been presented to the american public. then you start to get this. from them you get a gradual emergence of what you know now. you get bill cosby, dick gregory who deals with political humor in 1961. from that point on you move up to richard pryor who i consider the person who opened a door entirely because richard pryor started to deal with every aspect of that african-american humor that had been hidden previously. from richard pryor we see what is going on now. they should tell, people here

who perform and honestly present african-american humor. >> thank you. [applause] >> jam donaldson, how much of what you target would you attribute or stems in some way from the history of oppression or the way this stuff plays out? >> it is interesting to hear it laid out that way because when you speak about this sort of humor that was underground we still have that in our communities. they are still topics we feel comfortable talking about in the barber shop or at happy hour with our friends and laugh and sometimes when you put it out into mainstream america or god

forbid put it in a book it becomes very uncomfortable. we are still struggling with this line about satire and irony and sarcasm. particularly this generation today we have all grown up very ironic. they are very critical. we can be very funny and have a different approach to humor but even within our own communities we are very uncomfortable. i get a lot of flak for the things i say particularly because they are not true but because i said it out in public where the white people heard it. that israel. we are definitely making strides. i have been writing for the last five years and i have seen attitudes change particularly with social me and internet becoming pervasive and many more voices out there. so many different perspectives. i do think there is this aspect

of underground conversations and how do we deal with putting those in the mainstream versus perpetuating stereotypes. that is david appel brought that up. sometimes you don't know how far you can go. we are still struggling a bit and by leaps and bounds i am happy to have the opportunity to do what i do but there are still challenges with what is acceptable for humor particularly when we are talking about the written word. >> how does that hit you? >> i also believe that so-called black humor is urgent. jam donaldson and mel watkins's title our research but my title, president brown is a very fine fellow, very articulate

obviously and attended a wonderful university. my book is not a kettle of vultures left feet on my forehead. the name of my book is a kettle of vultures left big marks on my forehead! [applause] because african-american humor is loud. it is in your face. it is saying what i have been suppressing to say. it is the bottom line. it peels back underneath. it is not polite. it is not pretty. it is a response -- speaking truth to power but when a black comic says it he or she is a bit from a powerful position.

as an african-american writer i kept the opportunity to speak and write in subtext, what we are all thinking as opposed to them at the sunni lot and he was a handsome fellow as opposed to he was a limb. what we are really thinking and as human beings we should take the permission to express ourselves as in the subtext. it is so free and so much fun. [applause] >> yes it is. >> is it possible the harlem book fair can move back to new york as opposed to having it on the equator? can we come back? thank you. >> i think there was supposed to be a sequence where we captured a slave somewhere near the equator and now we are being

tainted. that is the only explanation i have. larry wilmore. you have been in hollywood most of your career. pretty long time. you are one of the very few african-american voices that is consistently there, crying in a bit of a wilderness. given that you are in many cases big boys, how do you balance getting us to laugh at ourselves versus making as a laughingstock? >> that is a great question. since i have done satire i always felt quality is when we have a right to make fun of ourselves and it is okay just like everybody else. i have been in the position from the in living color days and the p js from having a crack head.

how can you have a crack head? to me it seems andy griffith had a drug. taxi had the town burn out. why can't we have a crack head? i remember having to defend it against the naacp. we had a meeting. you always have to have a meeting when you do a black seminar. the fan the crack head character. he was funny. got to go. crack don't smoke itself. that was his job. he had to go. it is just satire. is not to be taken seriously. the irony about it. the show i was most proud of was the bernie max show. the show that i created. [applause]

when i created the bernie mac show it is not easy to get a black family on television. is not very easy. it was very important for me not to make black and issue in the riding but to have black be in the dna of the show. the writing was about the heartbreak of raising children. the mother was a drug addict. i am using the humanity of it and telling a story so completely different than making fun of it. the black and that was in the show people couldn't deny it. it gave people something they hadn't quite been looking for. little bit on the cosby show but not in this way where that kind of humanity is in your face all the time. bernie is unapologetically successful but came from a place everybody could identify for. i really miss bernie lot. he was really good.

[applause] what was important to me as i got my big break on in living color. a black producer on the show was very important to me. it really inspired me. it was significant that bernie mac and myself would end those meetings to pitch that show together and did that show in hollywood. that isn't happening right now. it is nowhere in network comedy and it is a sad situation. >> we move to a slightly different topic now. a few years back, i will see who is going to respond to this. a few years back we heard a lot of discussion about the word bigger --nigger.

one former mayor decided to bury the word in a public funeral. some comedians like paul muni and others reserve exclusive privilege of using it so first, where do you stand on this word? >> i absolutely am against it. in my life and my communication, it is a lazy crutch to lean on. the person that uses it is actually expressing their own demonization of themselves and trying to perpetuate it on others. >> is there a different view? >> that is not funny but it is what i think. >> the term came into use with

richard pryor. the way richard pryor used it was different than it is being used now. richard pryor did characters and the characters that he did would have used the term so that is why he used it. our it is simply a punctuation mark in everybody's presentation. i totally agree with sabrina lamb that it dehumanizes, they is a false sense of attempting to make fun of yourself by calling yourself something hateful in the eyes of most people. >> i have to recuse myself. [laughter] in my book i remember they did the burial. did they do a eulogy for the word? i have a eulogy for the end word in the book. does it even get a fair trial?

why are other words not being banned? sa have a mock trial. >> why do you expect justice in america in a trial for the n word? >> satire i believe is a place for everything in satire. in dramatic storytelling you never know. the pens what you are telling. i did a piece on the daily show about people wanting to removed it from huckleberry finn. that is literature as far as i am concerned. it is very important. the satirical point that it is important to understand that that is what black people were called back then and what they were considered and to not know that is ignoring history. a very important satirical point by using that word. removing it is ignoring something that is very significant that we should not

forget. >> i don't think you should remove it but it should not be used as a punch line to every joke you tell. that is a different story. historically you are right. you can't remove it from mark twain's book because it wouldn't -- it would destroy the history. you would not have an idea what was going on. it was used at a certain time. if you are doing a story about the south and eliminated you would be distorting the picture. >> is true we spend so much time talking about that word that we miss other issues like the one you mentioned about who is producing shows in the first place. are we missing our bigger issues by focusing on that? >> i look at it like profanity in general. it doesn't appeal to gratuitous

use of profanity but it can be used very effectively in writing. it can be used effectively in humor. sometimes i use it effectively when i am driving in my car. i don't have the strongest feeling about it. i don't believe every head pops on -- it should not be the generic term for fellow or young lady but i do think i am not one who has stricken it from my vocabulary totally. >> not totally. >> just like cusswords. there are a couple profane words in my book and they are used for dramatic effect. >> example? >> i don't want to say it in mixed company. there are children. but it can be used from the daily show. there are cusswords that might be used but it is really for

punctuation. it is for the drama and the humor of a particular scenario. not just i am saying it because i have no vocabulary. there is a time and place. doesn't have to be totally. it could be cremated and the actions spread over there. >> are you advocating that we exhumed the word now that it has been buried? >> i am not saying that. not a full -- maybe we could take it out and put it in a little crept above ground. i don't know. we can do it. when necessary. it takes a while for black folks to bury people. >> this will be -- >> again -- it will start on time. >> who reports back on that in two years and let you know where we are.

as each of you has demonstrated in your own work for some time in chronicling the works of others the best comedy is the sharpest social commentary. how has african-american humor transformed the course of america's social culture particularly in recent days of social commentary that was so pointed? >> from my experience humor in the media has been hugely important when you look at the daily show or chris rock or a lot of comedians that are out there with a lot of very poignant and smart social commentary. but somehow i find when you transfer, the to the written word it is much more difficult

for writers and sas --essayists to deal with social commentary. when there are words written on paper it is given gravity that comics get away with. i say things about the comedian says somewhere in this country every night a week if i say it in an essay for ebony and everyone is like oh my gosh -- seriously. you are talking about black people and should say that but chris rock said the same thing. it is -- as a writer it is much more difficult to relate humor and social commentary. we are coming along but it is a harder transition than in television and other media

outlets. more books like the kind we right, i am glad everyone is here in this audience because there's not a lot of books you can say i am going to go to larry's book and i know i am going to laugh and he will make great points and you'll get some humor from jam donaldson sabrina lamb. there is room for it because we love to laugh. there's so much humor and satire and ability to poke fun at so many things that publishers, the one that are left, are missing the boat on this particular field because if you look at our counterparts and so forth there are so many books of satires that you can get a laugh from. this is something to focus on. there are so many smart riders on the stage.

i don't do stand-up any longer but i share with my former stand-up colleagues that they should write more because there's a glass ceiling to stand-up comedy. the power is in the writing. there may not have been a bernie mac show. it is the writing behind-the-scenes that is power. >> historically social commentary did become important until the late 50s because comedy before that was very polite. no one ruffled plotters. no one did anything to upset the apple cart or the status quo which was very important. .. them black comics, but lenny bruce, mort saul and be dick gregory were very important in establishing that kind of critical social humor in this country, and then after they did it, other people came along, and

black humorists, particularly richard pryor, combined the rawness with the social commentary. made huge strides. opened it up entirely for people. and the writing is kind of interesting also because they're, blacks have been kept away from writing satirical books. if you look at the literature of african-americans, there were only a few books that even touched on satire up until the 1900s. i think charles chestnut used humor first, and then you have james wheldon johnson, i guess, with the autobiography of an ex-colored man. you don't get anything again until the renaissance, langston hughes, and, um, hurston, those people come along. but they opened up the stage for the kind of writing that you people are doing when you're actually dealing with humorous writing because it's very difficult to do. >> well, you know, i'm glad you bring up dick gregory because dick gregory, to me, is a

forgotten voice that should not be forgotten, you know? [applause] absolutely. when i was a kid, i am a little troubled by, and i don't want to make a blanket accusation, but black stand-up comedy today seems a little one-sided in some ways. it seems very focused on talking about sex or, you know, very much in, you know, one area of humor, you know? whereas when i was coming up in the '60s, dick gregory, a political comic who did very important political satire, flip wilson was kind of a vaudeville-style comic. bill cosby, brilliant story teller. really didn't have someone who appealed to everyone. cambridge who would be considered a hipster today, he really did the college circuit. cotton comes to harlem, remember that? he was brilliant. and then you have your old school comics, your moms maybe my who was brilliant. [applause] and all moms -- that little girl

is so cute. all moms mabely had to do was talk, and she was funny. oh, i gotta tell you about my husband. [laughter] man, he was so ugly -- [laughter] honest to goodness, he hurt my feelings, you know? if. [laughter] we want today just hear this woman talk. you felt like you were connected to some kind of black history by listening to her. and i don't feel that in a lot of comedy today. you know, i just feel like it's very superficial, and it's, you know, the things that are being talked about don't mean anything, you know? in a large sense. i don't want to make a blanket statement. i think chris rock is still just one of the most important not just black comedians, but probably comedians, probably of all time, you know this and then, of course, richard pryor kind of ushered in this modern comedy. but his stuff was more personal, no one has been as personal

since richard pryor. he grew up in a brothel, a lot of people don't realize. and he had the courage to talk about that on stage and was, you know, that stuff -- he's talking about shooting his car and be having a heart attack. nobody said that on a stage anymore. and i say god bless him for telling us those stories and things like that. >> but it took him a minute to get there -- >> bill cosby. >> right, he was bill cosby at first. audiences were not accepting of o him, so and then he had a faithful meeting with ishmael reid who taught him how to develop those characters as a great satirical writer who still lives in the california. and so, but, and so like you said, he was able to make those characters, a wino and so forth, human and that's why bringing it to the written, the written form is really important because it expresses the humor and humanity of our grandmothers. we all have a mom's mabeley in

if our family or a crazy old uncle that we keep locked in the closet, or at least in my family. [laughter] but it's important to rejoice with those characters because they live with all of us. >> so, and i believe our diversity within our community is as important as diversity itself. you know? and so i love the diverse voices. >> yeah, exactly. >> now, let's get into one more thing before we begin to open it up for questions and answers. and we're talking about the history of african-american humor. we've referenced several things including those who write and produce behind the scenes, but more than one comic -- and chris rock does come to mind fairly instantly -- has pointed out that african-americans don't read. do you agree that we don't read? and if so, to what degree is making this observation just

something to laugh at versus the cry we gotta do better? >> um, i don't know how to answer that question because, to me, there's a big cultural movement leading away from reading anyway. i mean, crown books just closed this week. you know, media's so disposable today, you know, people like to get it instantly. i think we live in that kind of society, you know? >> but it's still reading. >> yeah, no, it is. i agree. >> still reading, and it's still something to do with writing -- >> i don't know if it's the black thing. [applause] >> society. >> i think it's a society thing. >> we're moving into an electronic age where people are no longer as concerned with reading, with books, with ideas being expressed in a certain way. television, the availability of that kind of media makes it much easier to simply see something. i mean, we're returning to an era where a picture is worth a

thousand words, and television whether you have a thousand pictures, so that's a huge tome, you know? you have to deal with it. it's like the change in the society, i think, not so much blacks although it seems that our community, unfortunately, puts some extra value on not being literate often, too often. we're making that a point of pride which i think is kind of ridiculous. i don't think that's necessarily going on in the rest of society. but in one, on the one hand, i guess, we could say we're ahead of the time in terms of the general society because we're pushing it in a way that they're not. but i don't think it's just blacks, i think it's mainstream. it's the entire country. >> and writers, we have to be, take more responsibility for our own promotion, our own marketing and so forth because we can't leave it to our publishers to do it, and, um, you know, but it's important that we support satirical writing because satirical voices really take the

temperature of the world and particularly when you're talking about black people of what's going on in the black community. >> and i would, i just would say that in terms of the publishing industry, you know, whether it's that blanket generalization is true that black people don't read, a lot of publishers have accepted that they don't, so it does make authors like myself or sabrina or larry or -- maybe not larry, but other people it's harder to get books published because they go into it saying, well, who's going to read this? black people don't read this sort of thing. and be so i don't know. i, honestly, i don't know a lot of people that read, i mean, my book i know a lot of people who got it and loved it, but it was only because they knew me or someone told me about it. i don't know if they're not promoting the work or if they're not buying it. if they put out some positivemovie and no one comes, then they put out another movie,

and everyone comes to that, so it's harder for another positive movie to get the funding. so it's really difficult in know being how much is our audience reading habits, or how much is it that publishers don't believe that our audiences can enjoy these sorts of books? and it's not only satire. we'll just say it's not strictly social commentary. i think, you know, a lot of us write about just life as a black chick grow canning up in the city, and it happens to be really funny. >> right. >> i mean, it's kind of like the bernie mac show. it's not centered about i'm black and what happened as a black woman today. it's what happened as a regular woman, you know, in a regular city with -- >> strong black woman? >> no, not even the strock back woman. -- strong black woman. no. >> you have to be a -- >> no, just a very mild-tempered strong black woman. [laughter] some of us are quite introverted actually.

[laughter] so, i mean, just our regular stories can be interesting and funny and engaging. everything doesn't have to be, you know, the bluest eye, you know? we really have wonderful stories that we all can relate to and i think will just promote the diversity with our own cultures and have us all understand each other more. and we happen to do it through things that are funny and can kind of teach things about our experiences as a neighborhood or a community. but i think it's just important for us to branch out and maybe pick up a book that you maybe wouldn't have picked up before and just, you know, try out some different things. >> mel, you had a piece that you wanted to share with us. >> i just was going to read you one of the old stories during the slavery, the story of this pompei story. it's the interaction between a slave and a master that shows the direction humor had to go prior to it opening up in the '50s. the master asks the slave, how

do i work? is oh, massuh, mighty. what do you mean mighty? well, you look noble. what do you mean by noble? why, sir, you looks just like a lion. where have you ever seen a lion? i saw one down in the field the other day. that was a jack ass. was it? well, sir, you looks just like him. [laughter] [applause] and that's the way humor had to go before people could speak directly. >> be and that's rochester -- >> yep. [inaudible conversations] >> been having that dialogue with each other ever since. >> that's great. >> let me, as we let people get ready to ask some questions here, i guess it's time for us to do that part, but while they're lining up let me see if we have any other thoughts you want to share, some black thoughts maybe, larry?

[laughter] >> well, you know, expounding on what jan was saying, here's something that gets me frustrated in hollywood is hollywood turned where they felt at one point they didn't mind that black stories could be for everybody, you know? the jeffersons wasn't on some satellite channel, you know, that only black people watched or something, you know? it was on cbs, you know? everybody knew that that was a show for everybody. everybody could watch the jefferson. fresh prince on nbc. and then we've got these negro leagues that i like to call, i call it nig at night. [laughter] i mean, why do we have to -- why is it on one night? i only used half the word. [laughter] but i don't understand that, you know? when did we become just for us? no! our stories are from us, but they can be for everybody. >> right. >> you know? and i think that's kind of the

point she was making too. [applause] yeah, they're from our point of view, and that's why i think social satire and commentary is important. it's commentary about the entire society but from our particular unique point of view because blacks in america have a unique point of view that no one in this country has. even in hollywood india being the new black, i'm sorry, we have a unique perspective that no one else has because of our history. and we can write from that perspective. jewish people l have always had the outsider perspective, they have a unique perspective in their humor that they bring everywhere that's unique to their culture. but that's what we have here in america. no one else has our experience. so we can talk about it. we know the white culture better than they know the black culture. i mean, that's another story. there you go, i'm done. nig at night. >> that's a black thought. [laughter] >> jan? >> no, i mean, i would

absolutely echo that, and i think, you know, just like it's very interesting how, you know, i look at a show like a "sex in the city," you know, every sister i know we would look at that show, and we would see ourselves in that show, and i know white women who can look at girlfriends and see themselves in that show. like larry was saying, we have these very common experiences, we have a unique perspective, but, you know, women dating and can relationships and love and be family and children, um, we're a lot more alike than we are different. and be i think, and unfortunately, we have seen this kind of colored section of shows pop up and movies pop up and music, and i think it is unfortunate. i think it's incumbent upon all of us to keep writing and for all of you aspiring writers out there to write what you feel and write from your experiences. it doesn't have to be my life as an angry black woman. it can be my life going through law school my first year with no

money. you know, we have such a diverse community within our community, and i think it only makes us all better. we share those experiences and be not gonna focus on the most awful experiences in this our neighborhoods. >> you're not late. we're just about ready to start. come on in. [laughter] >> right on down front. [laughter] >> had to start it. had to start it. [laughter] >> and don't be surprised if this scenario appears in some show on television at some point. [laughter] they'll get your names later so we can be accurate. >> oh -- >> okay. we've got -- >> oh, a fight breaking out in the back. >> people over here. there may be some angry black women in the line, we don't know. [laughter] we're going to start with a first question. state your name and -- >> okay. good afternoon, my name is vicki m. oliver lawson. i'm a poet and author and

retired educator from baltimore. now, because i got frustrated with trying to find an agent to publish, i self-published, like, 13 children's books. two of them i've already released, and what i'm interested in doing now is moving it to the next level. i would like to see the chirp's books become children's programming. so i guess my question is mainly for you, mr. , with -- wilmore, but many -- in of you can address it. >> and your question was? >> would you produce her show, that's the question. >> oh, yeah. how about that? [laughter] [applause] >> don't let me get angry up here. >> is this a private question? [laughter] >> i just want to know what are my next steps in terms of -- >> to produce a children' show? >> right. children's programming. >> well, i haven't really done

children's programming, but, um, and you're producing a show that's based on your own books, is that what you're saying? >> yes. >> and you live in washington? >> no, baltimore. >> oh, baltimore? >> um, that's a very good question. [laughter] i'm not sure really how to, where to do children's programming of the educational stuff because i guess pbs is the first place to think of for something like that. >> yeah. been there. >> yeah. i just don't know much about that area. prime time i kind of know more about. >> i would suggest, um, that you, um, don't wait on the network bees to anoint -- networks to anoint your vision, that you take it to the marketplace. you take it to the internet. because there is only a limited amount of space on network, and they only, they already have their, what their marching orders or what they're going to do or not do.

i would suggest that like you did with your self-publishing, you said, i'm not waiting. put it on the internet, youtube or whatever and create, you know, fans, followers or whatever and let them come to you after you've created the, you know, the momentum. but don't wait on anyone. take it to the marketplace, and the marketplace will decide. >> right, thank you. >> and i think -- [applause] that is great advice. that's how a lot of my students at clark atlanta university get their material out there, is they start with some very expensive web and video work, they get it out there, and they see what happens and see who pays attention to it, so so it's a good way to go. >> yes, sir. >> how you doing, everybody? >> good. >> now, i'm glad you mentioned flip wilson because i was thinking of him when you guys were talking. the reason i was thinking of flip, because he played a woman character, and i was thinking of

medea, you know? i was thinking -- eye i'm sure you guys know more about that than i do, whether that's where mad everything a came from. and also we left out redd foxx, redd foxx was very important. and, mel, can i call you mel? >> >> yeah. >> and in terms of amos and andy, you know, that lawyer thing. because i know howard at the time -- >> calhoun. >> right. they were producing lawyers, and i wonder if that was put out to kind of make the black lawyer look like a baffoon. so those are the things i was -- >> flip wilson was one of my favorite comedians. i interviewed flip wilson probably more than any other comedian. i had a lot of respect for him as a comic, and i thought he was one of the best around until richard pryor arrived on the scene because flip was a vaudeville type. he brought the old school to the new school because he did have

social commentary embedded in that vaudeville approach that he had. but flip was there. redd foxx, i think we did mention him, but he was one of those breakthrough comics in the late '50s and '60s who moved us from the old -- >> he was on -- [inaudible] party records back then. >> yeah. he was doing the party records, but he also was working in clubs at this point. he could never breakthrough for a while until he got with nipsy and started to breakthrough. they had a tremendous impact on things. in terms of flip's character, the woman character, the female character that he did, he talked extensively on that, and you have to remember that black women characters portrayed by men go all the way back to minstrel si first done by whites on the minstrel stage. and be done, also, by black minstrels when they took over in the 1870s. so you have a whole tradition to this. it goes all the way back.

flip wilson thought that he was bigiving that character some dignity. he thought he wanted to do a real woman, but it was prideful, andher whole thing about, you know, don't touch me, t like she was a very proud woman who never allowed anyone to put her down. and flip insisted upon that. and when he talked to me about it, it was one of the things he said he wanted to do. madea, i don't know, i think i'll let someone else talk about that. [laughter] >> i got nothing. >> uh-oh. >> tyler perry, that character to me is not one of my favorites, put it that way. so, and be i think that a few other black comedians have done the female characters that, in my opinion, are not that positive. it bothers me.

if it bothers me, i can tell you that i'm offended by some of that stuff where i was not offended by flip wilson's character. >> well, i just will note that you're not getting any commentary from the others on madea, and we'll move on. [laughter] >> with well, and a lot's been said about tyler perry's characterization of madea, and as he explains it's based upon all of his aunts and so forth. um, first we have to applaud him for creating a mechanism or a company where he is producing, um, films and product and so forth. [applause] we have to do that. and we have to, also, say that there also is -- we have to have a balance and a variety of voices because there's other voices that should be ushered in too to express different parts of our life. so it's -- we need all kinds of

voices. >> i should say i actually wrote a lot of the jamie foxx wanda sketches for "in living color." so i don't think that's probably one of your favorites, mel. [laughter] but the whole point of that character was she was just so repulsive, and yet she just could not get enough attention, you know? [laughter] and we had so much fun. and it was, jamie did that in his stand-up. i remember his audition for "in living color," and i don't know if he called her at wanda, but he would just change his face, and he would start trying to hit on the audience members, and he was just the funniest thing in the world. for us it was more about how repulsive that character was, and jamie's characterization of it was so infectious. but it wasn't like he was doing a person, he wasn't making social commentary with it, i should say, you know? he wasn't presenting this as a black woman. this is a repulsive person who can't get enough attention and

thinks she's fly and all that. >> and in the context of that show, it was very satirical. >> exactly. many different images, so that wasn't just the one. it didn't stand on its own. martin lawrence too. >> yes. >> my name is tim, independent film maker and kind of a question for everyone. like, with the bernie mac show, it crosses, it's a very layered show, and from his kings of comedy stand-up to where in the show he's a loving, you know, but a tough dad. there's always a moral ending to it. it's a really quality show, and nowadays when you see tv, it seems like they just spit 'em out with no thought involved like just mass-produced shows just to get 'em on the air. you know, we've got 12 shows to

do, let's go, the clock's ticking, you know? the one i could see, like, modern family you could tell there's a lot of thought and be a lot of creativity that goes into it, and they're really not under a timeline, and it's, you know, you guys have to deal with publishers and time commitments. at what point do you say, you know what? it's all about the quality, not the quantity? >> um, you have to do it at every point. i had to fight for all those moments. in the pilot i had a scene where bernie spanks jordan in the grocery store, and that was very important to me because that's what we do, you know? [laughter] but it was shocking to white people. [laughter] they were shocked at the network. oh, my god, he struck him? i'm like, yeah, that's what -- [laughter] the way he was acting, he's lucky that's all he did. [laughter] that was my point of view. i wanted it bigger, actually, and --

>> the neighborhood i grew up in was still suburbia, but if you even thought about it, i mean, it was going down. >> sure. [laughter] >> you know, so, and, again, like the bernie mac show and i would say such as modern family kind of crosses race barriers. it's, like, if you talk back to your grandmother, you know, you've just sealed your fate. >> right. >> or if you even think about it, you know? but at what point -- >> the same question or a different one? >> at what point do you, you know, do you take creative control and say, look -- >> no, as i said before, it has to be at all points. >> yeah. >> every single point. i was fired from the bernie mac show in the second season, and i had won an emmy, a beltway body award, tv critics award, golden globe nominated, i don't know

how many awards i had to win before they got the point that it was about the quality of the show. but they wanted it to be a cookie cutter type show. they wanted, you know, the wyomings to act -- wife to act in a certain way, and i said, no, she's a human being. she's going to behave the way a human being behaves. she's not a cookie cutter black woman. and i stood up for her in the face of getting fired which was fine with me because i wasn't going to compromise. >> did you win the bet award though? >> no, because they didn't -- [laughter] >> damn, we lost to the steve harvey show! >> peabody, bet -- >> they're both very important. >> if i could just follow up on that. it's really difficult with a big network. and, you know, as someone who was fairly young in the business, it was extremely

difficult to fight the corporate overlords. i mean, especially when it gets into race and something that's controversial, i mean, what sponsors want to see is a racial -- least is a racial controversy around the show. so it was, i mean, i have to say it was extremely difficult, and i have -- i mean, what really bothered me was how so many of the kind of corporate media tv execs, they really underestimate the black audience. i had a top executive sit me down and say verbatim, that's not ready. and it was just really disheartening to think that they have it in their minds that we can only digest this kind of information and we're not smart enough, particularly young people, to get the irony or the sarcasm. they won't understand, they're going to be offended. and t really disheartening. i would go speak to colleges and

everybody got it, they loved it, they thought it was so funny. but it was very challenging. so my experience was extremely difficult and very disheartening at times where i felt this was not the best representation of me, but because i had put myself in this network situation where, you know, i'm kind of the' onat this point -- peon at this point, it can be very difficult when you get to that level, especially with racial issues. >> [inaudible] >> i'm sorry? >> yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible] >> this was in table. so, i mean, these days in cable they're all run by super, mega conglomerates anyway. so, i don't know, i think it's going to be difficult anywhere. >> hi. my name's courtney, i'm from d.c. today to be with you all. the conversation about sort of hidden topics and hidden discussions and how they kind of come out in if humor and the history of that within our community reminded me or made me

think about, um, sort of the tracy morgan situation and his comments about homosexuality and how that was very controversial and, you know, the humor didn't quite work in the context in terms of how people reacted to it. and my question is, i'm wondering within the community of comedians and humorists, is there some tempering that goes on between you in terms of kind of working with each other to see, you know, how far is too far, and that doesn't really work in that context, or is it just, you know, you kind of put it out there, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work? >> i mean, tracy, what he's doing now is what he was doing now when i would perform, he and and i started at the same time on 125th street and fifth avenue. so he was doing that kind of humor -- not just tracy, take the focus off tracy, a lot of particularly african-american male comics do that kind of humor. or say those kinds of -- you

know, whatever, however you want to characterize that on stage. the only, the only issue when it comes to stand-up comedy where you run into problems or the only sin is if it's funny. if it's funny and it's horrific, it's still funny. so, obviously, that night it was not funny, and in the rules in the house of comedy, that was, that's how comics look at it, that he failed in terms of hitting the punchline or making a punchline. but he's been doing that and other comics, you've seen that on network shows, on bet or black comedy clubs throughout this country happening right now. and they want to talk about, you know, the gay man or the gay woman and all sorts of things. it's not new. what i think is new over the passing of the last ten years is that the gay and lesbian community have, you know, drawn a circle around and have lobbied this is what you're going to do, and this is what you're not

going to do. i'm going to attack your advertisers. they go after the money. and if you have an issue as a community, that's what you should do. of you shouldn't just complain, call up the radio station and hang up the phone, you should lobby and advocate around a particular issue and attack the money, and that's what they did. >> the other issue on that was someone in the club wrote a blog about it -- >> right. >> -- and then tracy's words that were meant to be heard live in a comedy club in context were written, now it's written and people are reading it in the code, i will beat my son if he says he's gay. but if he said that to your face, you'd go, oh, man, that's too funny. oh, tracy, stop it. [laughter] i mean, t a different context, you know? >> it's all context, yeah. >> yeah, you know? i'm not supporting it either way, but when it's taken out of that context for political reason, well, it's going to have a different kind of power.

[inaudible>> yes, ma'am. >> hi, my name is caitlin, and it's just in terms of read anything general. you mentioned earlier that there's a big focus on the fact that people just aren't reading anymore because now we're in if an instant gratification society. and i was just wondering in terms of the reason why kids don't read anymore is school curriculums are still teaching boring books. not to knock on "the great gatsby", i'm sorry, when you're 18 years old in the 21st century, no one cares that she wore a purple dress to an all-white event and wants to pick out the imagery in that. do you think that may be the way curriculums are taught with reading kind of discourages people from reading for fun? >> shakespeare's so 15th century. [laughter] i mean, there's really no point.

>> but shakespeare's a different target. we're still reading books like the scarlet letter. when i was in high school, basically, the most modern book was stuff coming out by zora hurston, and be i really don't think much more stuff has come out in terms of modern literature in terms of that. >> i don't know about that. i have to say going through high school and college the books they made us read at the time i thought were boring andhell laishes, but i'm telling you in about five to ten years when you're at that cocktail party and someone makes a, you know, what's her name scarlet letter, esther prin reference, and you're like, oh, my god, i mean, i think there's a lot to be leshed that sometimes you don't get are for five or ten years.

perhaps you're too young. not you're too young, but a lot of books like moby dick, no, you probably don't get it until later. i think there is value in reading the classics. [applause] i think -- is. >> oh, yeah, absolutely. >> i think part of the problem is that we all want the next thing that's new and shiny, and be so we are forgetting about history, and we want, you know, whatever, you know, we want to read the twilight series in high school. and i think there's been a loss of a focus on good writing and good structure and good literature as opposed to what's entertaining and fun. because sometimes they're not the same thing. [applause] >> also i think for me at least the love of reading came from my parents. my mother used to collect a lot of paperback books, they were in the house all the time. i didn't learn to love to read from school, i learned from home. and my kids have learned to love to read because we read to them.

i think that's where you get your love for reading. [applause] >> and the debase about curriculum in colleges is going on still. it's very difficult to figure out what's really happening with that because you do have the classics, and they're almost history books. but you're reading fine writing as someoned pointed out here. it's so outstanding that simply from the point of view of the way it's written they should still be read. and certainly if you're dealing with shakespeare despite the difficult difficulty in reading it, you have to realize the guy was a genius. anyone who could come at so many summits with as much -- subjects with as much expertise as he did deserves to be dealt with even if it's a little difficult. but in terms of the classics, you should read them. it's -- they're more history than anything else. the point is we should also look

at the modern classics. i taught a literature course at colgate university a couple years ago, and they were asounded that i wanted to teach ishmael reid and cecil brown and barry beckham and alice walker and toni morrison. they were not teaching those courses. somehow those normals of the '70s and '80s have dropped out. those novels relate more to what you're talking about. i think there are novels that students can relate to more easily because they're dealing with subjects that may be not quite as old as some of the weeks -- books that you're talking about. >> we'll take one more question. >> thank you all for coming today. >> two more questions. [laughter] >> nice catch.

[laughter] my name's khalil muhammad, i'm the new director of the schaumberg, and so this is a real honor to be here. >> [applause] congratulations. >> my question has to do with postracialism or the age of obama. a moment in which the kind of authentic black voice seems to be buried along with the n word as a creature of the jim crow era and everything that came before. what i'm wondering is, um, if black people are disappearing from networks as i think we talked about, and the issue of creative control, um, is one that is still a struggle. how is that impacting the kind of writing that critiques white america in the way that richard pryor's voice once did? i mean, dave chapelle literally was unable to balance that line

in a moment which i would argue made it even more difficult, the sensibility. and i think, mel, i think you would bring that kind of depth to thinking about this. the sensibility that richard pryor brought to his material was also grounded in a moment where white people were being much more self-reflective of the history of this country given what was happening literally on the streets of america. dave chapelle's audience, and i'm just using him as an example, had brought the same for a postracial moment, the same kind of biting satirical criticism of america, and yet it failed miserably in terms of its longevity.

and having in a sense 20-something whites feel as empowered to write about black people because, after all, it's an mtv world. they reward white people, that's my question. [applause] >> okay. in terms of richard pryor -- a more militant approach by blacks, but race was on the table in america in a way that it's not now. so what richard pryor had to say, much of it comparing and contrasting black lifestyle with the white american norm and much of his comedy came from that was very pertinent, very vivid and very impactful at that time. as far as dave chapelle, i consider dave chapelle one of the best comedians around.

he and chris rock to me are one of the top three from my point of view. and, again, it's subjective. but i'm not sure or dave chapelle wasn't a success. did he not leave because -- >> he walked away. >> he did not want to. i watched that show, and be i know that students in a class that i teach on comedy, on african-american comedy, white and black students love dave chapelle. dave chapelle was one of the most popular comedians there. they understand him much more than richard pryor so he was, i think, getting across. i think they understood that in a way because he was able to take part of this mtv shock value presentation and combine it with something that richard pryor was doing which was more black in nature. dave chapelle can be black or go very articulate on you. he can do both things. and, therefore, he was able to, he was able to deal with various new woonses -- nuances of the comedy in different way. >> i actually agree with that.

i show it in college classrooms. the problem, i thought, was that his social commentary was lo in trans-- lost in translation is the point i was making. >> oh, okay. >> in other words, the audience, for the brilliance he brought to his material, in a sense self-destructed because you had, you had young people, 19-year-olds who grew up in a moment where minstrelsy, were being black in a sense was performative without any of the context or the seriousness of the black experience. and my opinion was that the 19-year-olds when we watched youtube videos of chapelle in the classroom, none of the history was there. none of the per tin si and urgency of what he was bringing to the conversation was there. it was just, it was like any number of critiques that spike lee has made of a kind of white hipster sensibility in the 1980s and 1990s. >> no, i think that's true. i think context has made laws.

we don't deal with it as much as we should, so those students and young people don't have the context that would allow them to appreciate it the way richard pryor was appreciated. so i totally agree with you there. >> okay, last question. [applause] yes, ma'am. >> thank you so much for letting me talk just a few minutes. i'm from the old school, all right? >> >> all right. [applause] >> nobody, no one mentioned you remember the man who used to say, shut the door? you know, and the judge, nobody mentioned him. >> here come the judge? >> markham. >> yeah, nobody mentioned him, and he was good. [laughter] okay. and i'm thinking about with us as black folk, you know, some of our if you don't behave i'm going to slap the black off you. you know that's impossible, but that's what we say when we

punish people. all in the family o'connor. some of the things that man said, he still had a tv program, so what's up with that? [laughter] >> archie bunker? >> he told me to be fast, i'm fast. >> all right. [applause] thank you. quick response? >> you're talking about all in the family. >> yeah. >> at the time when norman lear wrote that show, there was nothing quite like that on television. there were no characters that really spoke that way, and norman lear really, he was an equal opportunity offend beer. [laughter] offender. but it was very important for him to show that face of kind of white, bigoted america. that was very important to him. he was very passionate about that. and he introduced the jeffersons on that show, a successful black family, a black entrepreneur, you know?