capitol on booktv on c-span2. vice, violence, corruption and urban renewal. kent masterson brown on ninth kentucky cavalry soldier john porter and american history tv a visit to buffalo trace distillery. one of only four distilleries in operation during prohibition for medicinal purposes. .. ♪

>> send us a tweet at booktv using hash tag summer reading to let us know what you plan on reading this summer. you can also e-mail us, booktv at c-span.org. >> we continue with more from frankfurt, kentucky. up next, booktv interviews lindsay apple. she explores the life and legacy of former secretary of state and speaker of the u.s. house of representatives, henry clay. [background sounds] >> henry clay was an early 19th

century politician, statesman. he ran for president three times, tried to get the nomination two others, failed on all occasions. but he's probably the best known non-president of that period. >> why is that? >> well, daniel walker howell argues that clay had the most expansive vision for the country of any politician of that period. he's speaking, basically, of the american system which was an attempt to unify the country. we were a big country, in fact, most people thought we could not exist as a democracy as large as we were. but he believed through transportation, through commerce that we could tie the country together. howell says that he was a better visionary than he was a

politician. he could not get other people to go with him. but if he could have stood out here on this front step and looked out to the west where interstate 75 and interstate 64 come together, he would have said, by god, i told you so. because that was exactly what he had in mind, connect the country. and it would stay together. and that's a vision, i think, that's important. it is what we have become. secondary to that, and i don't think it was his intent, but that american system while it was not introduced nationally, it was portions of it it were introduced in the northern states, and so the northern states became superior to the southern states in commerce and industry and manufacturing. and that was a critical issue when civil war did break out ten years after clay's death. so he, he helped hold the

country together even beyond his own lifetime, i think. >> why do you think he was never able to get elected if he was so prominent? why wouldn't people follow him? >> you know, that's a question that historians have asked for a long time, and i don't think there's one good answer. he was a whig. as a young man, he had been quite the rascal. he was known as -- john quincy adams called him a gamester. he liked to gamble, he was called a womanizer. he flirted a lot with women, he enjoyed the company of women. he drank significantly. the democrats never let him forget that, and they never let the country forget it. he got those things under control as he aged, but the democrats weren't going to let him out from under that reputation. the other thing i think you have to look at is look at the country itself. it wasn't just clay who did not

become president. daniel webster, john c. calhoun. all three of these men were giants in their period, but the nation rejected them and took people with names like fillmore and tyler and names that were not as prominent in in the period -- in the period. it was like the country didn't want strong leadership in that era, andrew jackson being the exception to that. >> and your book is about henry clay's family. what role did they play in his political life? >> well, one of the reasons i became interested in the study was because historians imply, sometimes state openly that his family was a burden to him, that they restricted his ability to become president. and i did a biography of a great granddaughter who was a poet. and in the process of that i

began to see a different picture. um, clay worked as hard at providing for his family and setting his sons up in business as he worked at holding the union together. and simultaneously. a lot of people suggest, for example, that lucretia, his wife, was a burden. she did not like washington. washington wasn't a very popular place for the family because of her. well, what i discovered was she went to washington with him regularly until 1835. by 1835 she'd buried all sin of her daughters -- all six of her daughter, she had about six or seven grandchildren that she was raising her at ashland, and, you know, she just did not have the

time to go to washington. she had other responsibilities. when she was in washington, she basically supported his career and was hardly the recluse that historians have painted her as being. the sons had their problems. there is a strain of mood disorder that is evident in the early generations of the family. all five of his sons suffered from melancholy or depression, to use -- melancholy was the 19th century term. but they also all became with one exception, they all became successful businessmen. one served in the house of representatives, one served in the state legislature. one was -- two of them were tremendous horsemen. they, they contributed

significantly to the horse industry in kentucky. so they were more than historians have described them as. and i began to see this and thought the story needed to be told. >> what exactly were they doing that people thought that they were a burden just because she doesn't like washington? >> well, she, she was rather plain looking and somewhat dour looking. there's a type of the two of them, and i say it's the clay version of grant woods' painting, "american gothic," because they both look so dour. but by that time he's suffering from tuberculosis, she's had 11 children in 21 years, raised them, raised her grandchildren, you know, they had experienced

some difficult times. tragedy is a key ingredient of this family. they have suffered beyond any measure. how clay kept going, i can't comprehend. i don't think i could withstand the tragedy that affected him with his children and grandchildren. um, but, you know, i think it was appearances, i think the stories began to be told, and it's like, you know, once a story is told, it never goes away, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. um, and -- but they were, the sons took a long time to find their way. they were very slow to find their way. one of them ended up in the lexington lunatic asylum which, of course, fed the rumors about others. so it, i think it's just the circumstances of the family.

that caused that belief to build. >> so before all the tragedy, what kind of life did they lead here at ashland? >> i think it's a fairly normal life for the upper class of the society. clay loved having his children around him. one son, he built a home just to the east of here. in fact, it was on the edge of the property. they would come up and have dinner once a week with the family. the younger sons, another daughter bought a home to the southwest of here. the sons would ride over to see her, and she became as much a surrogate mother, lucretia had the other children and grandchildren to take care of, and so ann would be the big sister to her brothers.

they had slaves at that point in time who took care of the children, who made sure they didn't get into trouble. um, they were pretty free to ride and romp and play as they would. and you can imagine in this house, it's a large home, but for five or six, seven children at any one time, it gets small very quickly. so they were out and about and doing things. >> and when did the tragedy kind of begin? when did it all go downhill? >> within a year of their marriage. their first daughter died in childbirth, and then it was just a succession. they buried all six of their daughters. only two made it to an age to marry. they married very young. and then, of course, the scourge of women in the 19th century, childbirth killed both of them. they died very shortly after having had children.

but 1823 i think they lost two daughters -- i'd have to check my dates here. but at least two daughters in that year. they lost two daughters as a result of the horrendous trip to washington. one died in lebanon, ohio, one died shortly after they arrived in washington. theodore, the oldest son, ended up in the mental asylum, and the treatment of the day was actually worse than the illness, i think. if they'd left him alone, he might have come out of it. but the treatment, essentially, damned him to live the rest of his life in that facility. the young e son suffered -- youngest son suffered mental disorder and had to go there, but it was saw 15 years late -- it was 15 years later, so it was late enough that the cure did

not make it worse. it actually helped him. and he lived a productive life after. but henry worried about him all the time. he would write letters from washington begging for information about john. another son had a real problem with alcoholism, eventually straightened it out with the help of a good wife. what the clay sons did very well was to marry good women. and with no help from henry actually. but they, three of them, married really strong women who helped them to establish stability in their lives. >> if clay had become president of the united states, what effect do you think that would have had on his family? is. >> hmm. they would have, i think they would have lived with it. um, i think lucretia would have gone back to washington.

she knew what was needed. she had shared duties with john quincy adams' wife when clay was secretary of state, so she was not beyond the ability to do it. um, the sons, i don't know. what might have happened. they were good businessmen. one of them served briefly as a diplomat to portugal in the late 1840s. so they had some experience at government as well. but i think an equally interesting issue is what henry clay would have done as president. how his health would have held up. he suffered tremendously while secretary of state from the workload. how his