.. you. >> guest: thank

zeal. this is about an hour and 10 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> hi, and welcome. i thank everyone for coming. it is my great pleasure to introduce these two wonderful gentlemen, james o'shea and james warren. [inaudible] general o'shea is a very good friend of mine. it's fitting for him to host this. [inaudible] what's more tonight is that >> james o'shea is a master electrician and put himself through college baidu eight electrical work.riweot

and we have real work that needs to be done around here. hoping you would stick around after words to fix some of the lights. you know, jim moret he is say hell raiser and a former managing editor of "the chicago tribune" now writing hot for the cooperative ways to appears twice a week in the near times and on the website and known all over the country and all over the world and from capital gain and she writes for everyone including the a lipstick month late and double augur for the "huffington post"

and with the sun times and kasten it pretty much everything. i am sure mostur of you know, have worked together and we have heard a lot of stories. one of my favorite how did james o'shea was so mad at james warren he screamed at him and hung up the phone then did not speak for quite a while. remember that?er you would never forget that. [laughter] and we hope james warren is not here to retaliate. [laughter] i know that james warren willkg give you james o'sheasi background everybody's name isi jim. a [laughter] guy have a huge respect and many of you do for james o'shea. it is amazing all he has

accomplished in his life and was a loved journalist and editor hot of the tribune and chatting with people tonight it is nice to seeim, how much people love and care and respect him. i am honored the right here and it took courage to write the book. he is used to writing about other people and writing about yourself is not sout easy. this is being taped for c-span and they have asked me to ask you if you're asking questions to pleaseou wait until the microphone comes before you start asking a question. so now i introduced jim and jim. [applause] >> thank you.

i am james warren with my colleague and former boss james o'shea. the former editor of the "l.a. times" in managing editor of "the chicago tribune" and i want to thank for offering this space that i did not realize was a very purpose base giving the topic of the book as the auction house since it revolves around two deals one is clearly an option. you may assume given our relationship this will be 45 minutes of one at our of scores saddling and there is a lot to settle that if they had wiretapped our

conversations in the same way of a haplesser governor you would find nove shortage of creative tension between us for periods of t time 18 former colleague wrote the killed six rage the most interesting saying in this book personally about jim to o'shea refers to him being the st. louisve native and graduate of a military high-school run by the christian brothers' "the only thing i really learnedaugh why is how to take a punch. [laughter] he finished the third lowest in his class in the older sister suspected he was destined for a career in

newspapers when that age nine he stole her diary and sold it to her boyfriend for $5. [laughter] so just remember that. there are maybe nine and seats up front if you want to come and sit rather than stand. we have "the deal from hell." what is it about a end why should we care especially people as faraway as far away as maine? >> talks about the difference between journalism today and when i started.

the newspaper business note all of them are angels but but they had a public it service mantra that nobody could ever put it better as a leading member of the family that own the firstines newspaper that i worked for the "des moines register" the only thing a newspaper really has to worry about is the public perspective. because you'll have readersders then you have advertisers. that is the main source of income and revenue fory newspapers. youe have to be respected by the public around the 1960's and '70's that was turned on its head when the families wanted to get out of the

business to sell off their newspapers than they sold them to people corporations owned byth stockholders they had the fiduciary duty to wo stockholders and we have a lot of money rolling again. but sometime after september 11, in thaegt, changed and began struggling with revenues and as we'vens tried to maintain thosecutt margins we began cutting and diminishing journalism and guilty of subordinating the interest of the public with the fiduciary duties to produce what wall street expected a and i think that

has led us down a path to where we are today. levy into bankruptcyio court it was a fixture and an institution that all newspaperserst like it. people don't understand thevote fundamental role that newspapers play in a democracy and it is s troubling to me so everybody should care. not because it does about med are "the chicago tribune" or the "l.a. times" but what is vital in a democratic society. >> host: the book is

called "the deal from hell" it is about to deals. the first comes the year 2000 involves the purchase by the tribune company chicago-based owner, a very respected television stations the purchase of the times mirror company. give us the economic backdrop and the segue and the newspaper industryatio backdrop and the rationale for the first of the two big deals.o if you want to mention the fellow who became known as the serial killer liketell cheerios and smart start tell us about him and why he was critical to the tactics and strategy to execute a good deal. >> good deal from sam zell

"the deal from hell" it went into purgatory when it bought the times mirror. but a a well and time warner had just emerged and everything was going quite well. l things look pretty good theor future looked pretty brightas and the way the deal was structured is we bought the company even though the the way the cby use to be the coach chairman of general mills and the staff wasnt phenomenal. if they would have done as

well as coming up with nicknames we would not talk about this. they nicknamed him cereal killer because he started cutting things and cutting staff and therefore heat gotht that name but when the tritium bought it to, he did not know they bought it when he was not looking. of low back stabbing drama. could they were trying to do the deal in the secret a lot tha of things we should have known about came back to later in the things that we did not know about circulation problems that newsday they all came back to haunt us to put this into m a condition and the tax case which is one that is

ultimately settled for the irs. >> it was big but the circulationo problems that jim refers to is where i gather part and parcel of trying to do the deal in a secret and mike correct not to do the due diligence youns may have normally? >> that is true. you can fault a lot of people but due diligence to the last very long and we did not see it coming. all they're there was evidence t. m and to those people involved

in the circulation scandal may went to the guy who was involved meg man who was making of fake computer programs in september 2000, six months prter we completed the deal. law was more surprising was aware responding to him was from a law firm in losch angeles which represented the chandler -- chandler family. those were the sort of thing this there were some signs we did not pick up that them here in a situation we did not one to ignite a bidding war there is a lot of things we did not catch. >> host: they were unhappy with the ceo what was the s

lower of the a tribune company? >> it went to transform the "l.a. times" from newspaper company to something different. i am not sure they are clear what they wanted but they saw the chilean come along and we had newspapers and televisions and early into the internet probably one of the more innovative companies at the time. they also felt very strongly the leadership of the tribune company was with someone who gave the company credibility because of theples journalistic principles and had just written a bookted, about news values and as someone they trusted they saw a lot of good things and

wanted to diversify and they wanted cash because they are a family that loves dividends and hates taxes.he that was a tax-free transfer >> what are the economics? >> seven are $8 billion deal. on they got stock. when there was a dispute dispute, they wanted their money all in stocks because it was a tax-free transfer and the shareholders did not like that.ax they wouldes have to pay taxes of it was settled out. at that time the largest newspaper merger in history. >> apologize for my a

obsession with the former illinois governor but in the same way we disparage him and there maybe some that voted for him six different times. [laughter] there's also the impulse to disparage the tribune times may lourdes w. deal now. is a mature for a good period of time the conventional wisdom was itit was a smart move and things were going in the right o direction?it >> a lot of times the dealan, was working. in the early years it was doing quite well. it took the cost out there is a lot of duplication and did something that nobodyo has been able to duplicate to start career builder which was the job site and monster was led to ruutu wipe out everybody and we starte d career builder and

one of the few times it was highly successful and overtook monster. for quite a while it was working very well. journalistically, the "l.a. times" coming from a scandal we turn to that paper around.esou w it was winning pulitzer prize right and left under the leadership.ging people would despair's "the chicago t tribune" praising the editors of the "l.a. times." >> for sure the book details no shortage of friction between some factions in chicago and our counterparts in los angeles which is a way word western empire bed to move fast that possibility of scores

saddling. fast or to the core of the book the deal from hell and tell us what was going on in the industry and the company in the economy to prompt a defacto auction of themedi famous media powerhouse in t bring into the limelight adust man named sam zell. >> the us tensions were who will get it? everybody fights for the reputation.ne and who was asked to go to

"the los angeles times" in going against them numerous times john carroll left and a good friend of mine left and i went out to take over the "l.a. times" of first data walked in and the door of the security guard said who are you?id i said i am the new editor jim o'shea.e he got up pass for me to goo come into the building.th itat was good for one day.nto [laughter] that says a lot. i walked into thel newsroom there were pictures of otis chandler he was seuss. i looked around and thought a o k. [laughter] i t decided i would just go

there and get up and said assemble a staff and basically i am a journalist i am here i think i can help you. i basically tried to be honest and appeal to the sense of athfi journalist. they traffic fairness and balance and if they think g you are honest they will give you ai chance even ifyou. they cannot stand you.he i did that and we went to work. all throughout the industry industry, we had gonet, through three or four years trying to figure out the right size of theeal newsroom, how to downsizewhol downsize, he cannot make wins were blowing forcing all of us to do things we p did not like including laying off people come eliminating jobs.

it does to the point* you didn't want to do anything because if you stuck your head out you would say do you really need them? you got to the point* where you were sick of cutting back just looking for an opportunity to do something about it. that is when sam zell came the. >> whether the factors thaty prompted the tribune company to put itself up for sale. why? what was going on with the stockve price and revenues and why was it not on the same course? >>ng cash-flow began to be t challenged and part of it was bad happy chandler's came into play. they were unhappy with good

direction of the company and revenues were down in to get the stock price up he had a stock buyback in that it jeopardized the trust and worry it would make it very difficult to run wind in a way they would not come out of cash. they wrote a letter to the board with the direction of thet, company and then the company goes up for sale. >> why did so many peoplet come here wall street andor other to head back?

>> at that time companies come up for sale in knight-ridder was forced where the hedge fund forced it to be put up for sale to the minneapolis tribune they gost about $500 million and everybody was shocked it wouldn't bring any more money and people beganwith doubting it and the newspaper industry did not knowte how to deal with thed it internet so the stock pricesain started to tumble.ke nobody wants to walk into the uncertain future. they could not figure outto how to make it work. >> the most fascinating stuff is a period of time where this guy named sam

zell comes into the picture and there is feverish activity behind the scenes to put together this deal. tell us about his entry in the feverish activity which you disclosed and city hall some well-known firms like morgan stanley, maryland, jpmorgan chasemo,, and as you characterize, seem to do the same from the less noble of interest not necessarily a caring about those but significant fees and re expenses to be paid and have a set rebate to the solvencyam, letter.ni >> sam zell nicknamed himself a grave b dancer. he wants to buy distressed

assets. he was to pay a dime on the dollar to get ahold of your company then he can bring some expense out then sell it off for a lot of money. he was successful in some cases in and looked up good tribune company and he figured it wasand worth 16 a 17 million am byetta 13. all he had to do was to borrow a lot of money. he put 300 million down he is worth billions of dollarshe road to the speaking it was not that a great a risk for him.inki and goes out to buy the two be in thinking he will hold a while and make a killing. >> but it was a very

complicated deal with it was a great fascination to a lot of people in the financial business. probably the first and the last time going out to park city utah fighting cfo was far more of b assessed then i was because he could not figure how it would work for february thing about it, the involvement, he knew of that esop and in his world of this deal worked, it would be anc historic consequence be he did not get how it would work so tell us about the intricacies. and were the rank and file workers shafted? [laughter]

i will do that first. the people who were working at the tribune company when the deal closed worth $34 a share for the stock that they own. if you were sitting there and had stock as part of your compensation program you got $34 a share.waon nobody else would pay thatai so some did not come off so bad they bed to the way he structured was unique tors create the esop and throught a bunch of rich a maneuvers use that to buy the company as the employees were partners. and it did not have to pay taxes. to eliminate the 401(k) the

return is in the stock india's looking at these expense savings and people did not understand this. when he sold it he convince them it would work but com constructed the elaborate to the face to deal that was complex but the first phase than the next 50% until the end of the year may 2007 day by 50% within the whole company is ind limbo then they t take a closer look toning say can he'd close the deal? then begin doubting he can close the deal so of them in

the stock tanks and ready figures out if he can pull this off. he says i can do it in the bank's save the first phase of the deal is $161 million in fees for ago that was more than enough to run the "l.a. times" newsroom for one year.atd th that was a huge amount of money. but then the second phase phase, getting another 122 million so it is like 280 million that they have writing on the deal but it has to close.e there is enormous incentive to close the deal despite people saying i don't know if this will work.e a this could bankrupt the law entire company. it is against the law to lend money when you know, om it puts them into

bankruptcy. the big deal is they had to go day solvency opinion. they say this will be okay. they went to severalt, firms to did not want to touch it then they went to one in milwaukee and paid him $1 million to do an opinion wor and even though most wasesti suggesting not to do it. d that is how the banks gotsed, the fee and sam zell got the company because they endedscre up being in a company that could not carry the debt and began to lay them off so when i was at "the chicago tribune" we had a low over

700 journalist working and over 920. probably too many bet right now the "l.a. times" is oround 550 journalist.55 all of those lost their jobs in "chicago tribune", i hal don't know their levels but i suspect this staff is or by one-third or one-half. frankly when sam zell came along we thought maybe he has the answer.ed. we can figure out. he comes along in says you cannot cut your way out of gro this you have to growglin revenue we're all struggling to do this but in the end, the deficit was so narrow if we miss projections by 2%, that

yousaf would not get any kind of funding gore benefits for five years. it is that close so finally went to bankruptcy in right now these papers are far better off in bankruptcy gore them when they get out because when awn they get out they will be owned by thethey banks and they don't want to be in the bankruptcy -- newspaper business but theycu want their money back and will cut. it is a grim situation. >> is there any jack daniel's around here? i was going to meet my wife later but send it up. [laughter] sam zell can be a convenient foil dividend the larger personality but to what by extent should there be a

fair amount of responsibility shared by the previous tribune company board of directors? including the bastions of the chicago community you undoubtedly thought they were a folding this meritoriousgaar legacy? >> i did not drink enough whine to answer that. but the culpability and responsibility, everybody who is guilty to all hope against hope we could data of this so people close day blind eye to a disturbing reality.rk, we wanted to be successful. so i imagine if we would report the deal we would say

are you crazy? but we turned a blind eye so there was responsibility all the way around but in the end what i try to do in the book is not a sign blame but this is what happened r and let "the reader" figure out. >> don't be so charitable. take us inside the cell camp and is i read the book you suggest there were two conflicting visions of what to do with this company and the assets and as you tell us about bad to tell usls. about randy michaels. [laughter] >> in the gisele camp but weid should work with the chi existing editors we should

try to work with them to see but we can do to improve it in that was the memo drafted by sam zell the chief investment officer talking about the first 100 days. the second is by randy might go to is the show's then ceo and totally different. 15 pages of ballpoints and said let's cut the crap withis the attention in deficit are disorder society to get them what will sellad ads and that is the philosophy that prevailed to say let's have fun. that idea was not much fun for a lot of other people

particularly when he was an abusive type of guy and well chronicled with the incidents that occur. they went to with randy and it was a disaster. ionhze don't think this is as te chicago benefited bespoke clearlyth because a lot of them have quit the paper to walk away. t >> there is a chapter explain that and why you decided to write about that topic. >> he had a position in publishing r and he decided he and i were competitors and i

became them managing editor and i don't think he got over not being named a managing editor but beganin examination our operations. you could eliminate thein duplication but he focused on it and counted how manyer people were sending how many did news they sent? to hurricane katrina and looked at it and a very granular way. he counts everything every time i turnaround he isd ho counting and basically second guess why weh did e this. in the end that gave people ammunition when randy michaels came along to cut

back the staff severely to cut back the foreign bureaus and its tribune and that no one was interested other than local news and they did not need their own foreignatio reports or national stories and i totally disagree.ys it was an important part of the story of why these guys come along to decimate the place. >> meanwhile the editor in chief of the "los angeles times", your publisher but now explain yourela relationship and why ultimately you departed the "l.a. times". >> david is a nice guy

trying to do the right thing that we got into a big difference of opinion not about cuts but if you cut the budget would you do about savings. he was under pressure to put those savings on the bottom line it was lo liberating.

the waves are coming and i thought a holy day shy of nowhere to go today. that was the first time since a kid that i didn't have to go out. what will i do? i will go ride my bike thereth is a lot of things i have always wanted to do. i wanted to ride the plate. i started back.

i did it was not very good. nine refi to my interest in photography. there's a lot of things you want to do now is the opportunity.wih what will i do to keep these people working or avoid laying them off. it was an opportunity. everybody rates that you are in your 60s. my daughter was still in school it was scary to sit down a but then looking at situations to say where is

the opportunity? and basically a bailout at from one who called to say would you like to be a fellow? i have never been a fellow and i have neveran done that. it is better than a nobody. m i never dreamed i could get through the door at harvard. graduated third lowest and sitting in the kennedych school and i haveer a researcher and she was helping me research the book. then along came the opportunity then all the kids came up to me. the editor of the harvard crimson. at the end of the lng said i

want to be you. i said what? i went to do exactly what you did. are you crazy? everybody know is fired or unemployed he said you went out to change things and do good things in the world.t an i began to think about that and becamee friends with those in the program. year were talented people the best in the businesss an they were worried when they went back to the papers they would not have a job. i thought that business was good to me. i could addt it to two great newspapers may be a should give something back. t so when i heard they're trying to form a newhe

organization in chicago. i will help to get you off the ground and work for one year were for no salary but i do not want to run another news organization in here i am two years later i and the editor of the cooperative trying to figure thisoer out how you pay for serious journalism the kind that is anywhere? dd that is what we tried to do n right now. nobody has figured that out. but i feel strongly it that it is important to this community and the country to have strong information. not jump so people cann justify, you have to figure

that led me that i am glad i was fired i would never have done this otherwise. it is fun and interesting and scary. sometimes you think had we get the money to keep them employed? foia does that stock. i don't like it. been trying to raise money. i a i am a fund-raiser not very good and trying budget if it is too figure out how do we provide them money that says the vital service? is so you have to figure is

this the kind of journalism that is really going which is the coverage in the state house were a lot of the problems are rooted. so it was scary at first but thengh thrilling and i had thetn opportunity to try something to help people and teachf jo kids journalism. >> i have a bunch of questions but will did to all of them see you can asky questions. since we've just mentioned in the internet, on great chicago entrepreneur thatrom

has a multimedia vocational school give a speech a couple of weeks ago that lays out how people are consuming media these days. it is frightening and challenging and do see those who get their news every day from youtube. the a dramatic accelerating changes. if you took over a big media company today had to do witho monetizing what you're doing particularly online in a wayin to pay for that great journalism that you are a part of? >> part of the things you're talking about doing isi create communities seven tristan organize around the subject. you cannot look at a mass audience.chi find the people in chicago better interested in education and create an interest online getting into

good coverage. can you find 20,000 people are less than one-half of 1% who would pay $2 a week? then you use that money to hire education reporters then they create fed couldo solid education coverage online then from there you cherry pick to create aay f broader site. ou can you find people who are interested in politics? they are committed to it in can you use that money to go

out to get that coverage that it is sorely needed we did one little experiment we take some of them information to createti something that everybodyr gets four free. we're getting money from those from politics we hire political reporters andsu support a website to send out to the general public.at' that is the idea. but in a legacy news organization the first thing youe have to do is get out of the printing business.not it is too expensive they will not pay $5 every day about what its th takes. that is the cost.

not the reporter but the printing press and that ain't and the driving in the paper. that is 73% of the budget. you have to get out of the business. for the prices they're used to getting. you have to go online. maybe you don't have a daily newspaper maybe it is a weekend magazine and everye other day you have the online business.on than the cost goes down your no longer delivering every day. then you have to go to the business side and quit selling zip codes but sell who do want to reach? we have the data. how you get people on facebook gore twitter?e newspapers have to become

modern and to help people because we do know the audience is a helluva lot better to watcho everything sue to hell in a handbasket. it is about methodology and you're first box of booksop showed up and you gave me a copy than 2 feet out the door i looked at the index. as vain as i am pleased a side relieve i was only mentioned once.omet competition washington and bureau chief which was fine by me.e but many people are mentioned many more times and we have spent a lot of time in particular corporate

executives for ago some of those are not treated quite as benign as 5:00 a.m.. tell me about that. but it how you use the information that originally camerg tot you in distinctly private business meetings? then what you call the more emotional side.mo i cringe about some of thend folks that leno's is reallyf talk to a few people here or a few million on tv.th the former ceo we spent a lot of time with you nameds no john and he will not necessarily be a happy camper. tell us about the challenges of writing about people whom you knew in a pretty

intimate way. >> i can say i don't care in the end john would be bad. that was a given. but i wenti back to almost everybody so there are someri instances of a privatew meeting i was directlylve involved but i did not do it unless i thought it tissue bid to the narrative gore characterized something. there were things i struggled with that werepeop embarrassing that i went back and forth i would ploy did in and take it out then i a specific day had to contribute zero ors

understand? because if i use, at its i don't want to embarrass people but i am a journalist. in the end and a journalist is the same way. when you write the onlyeno friend is "the reader." you have to be loyal andg faithful to this story that was my regret -- guiding criteria. if it understands the context that is when i would consider using it. there was a lot of stuff i did not use the i found in my reporting that would be much more embarrassing. >> and and of those that

offer is in sight and context so when you go two amazon tonight, there's a little bit of titillation in there and its own way very revealing. with that the -- "people" magazine segue. [laughter] open up to a few questions. what was he talking about? oral sex? >> we know each other so i am not to looking for a job i am gainfully employed i am not sure four how much longer. but always taking a great deal of comfort and then news gathering aspect ofo what you have done for a living.hey and the publications you

have been involved but that model is vanish shame. that we have daughters 21 and 24 i don't think they have never read a newspaper and you have all seen that to make the transition into the digital media. onre is so much pressuret t the model. [no audio] [no audio]

. . newspaper is everyday the same information, rich or poor less than the price of a cup of coffee. always an amazing thing. and that is not going to be as true in the future because it is a model that is broken. so i think that's why i kind of got involved in cnc because if we don't figure out we will go away. and i think the best thing, i do see that these organizations are springing up and i am just hoping that the traditional newspaper organizations can learn from us and learn about how we can maintain that.

>> in the front here. he started to think about the online aspect of things and being a source of breaking news and that you were going to use the newspaper ads and extended the analysis of the story. >> [inaudible] >> do i need to repeat that? >> can you expand on that and tell me what your thought process was and what you hope to accomplish with that? >> the question is what was jim's if your article strategy when he was running the l.a. times about how to divide the role of the internet, the online version with the print version. >> we see them as two separate

entities. >> i think at that time there is a divide in the newsrooms and online newsrooms and print news room and was very difficult. you have to make people realize that this is one news organization and each media has its own strength and journalists like to tell stories. so if you can kind of convince people that the important thing here was telling your story for the media that it's in and so i think my thought was a kind of explain that i made out for them here's what is happening in classified automobile at advertising. we lost $200,000 in print advertising last year and a gain of $50,000 in online and if we don't get the online going, then next year it is going to get

worse so let's get with the program coming and there was a pretty successful message out there and people began taking it too hard and looking at it and it's just it absolutely started and it's still going on and i think the "l.a. times" has been pretty successful with its online operations because the kind of adopted that. but it's a very, very difficult proposition for all of journalists at that time. to appear on line before they appeared in the paper it was hard to break that down. there's a lot of people in this room that wrestled with that and they can tell you it's tough. can we talk about classified ventures in terms of to the online internet world is that what you were referring to? >> i was referring to the company added entity called classified ventures which was pretty early to the online

world. >> the one that i was referring to was a different one. it was called careerbuilder. and careerbuilder was an out of a job section in the newspaper. and we basically took the careerbuilder and made it an online jobs and information and classified advertising vehicle the monster hit to get over the newspapers and thought that's it. jack fuller is one of the driving forces behind it. careerbuilder her and one of the few examples of the legacy news organization creating an internet vehicle that became a very powerful force in the industry so i think that is what i was referring to and that saved some of the classified advertising.

but craigslist was going along with free classified which killed us. >> in your book you talk about the greatness mifsud of the editorial voices of the tribune and the l.a. times when they were at their peak. what's the future of an editorial voice and a model like the chicago news cooperative i don't really understand. can you give -- >> the influence of otis chandler, the influence of the colonel mccormick to set the tone from the publishers perspective. estimate how we do that at the chicago -- >> it's your values.

part of the reasons the people that you mentioned chandler and mccormick and the people that gave the tribune, made the tribune a great newspaper is that they had strong journalistic values and they believe in the journalism and i think that it's we kind of got out of fashion that journalists should be in charge of the business operations and be involved in it. we have a law to protect us and we would remain pure and would never do that. i think that has to change and i think that journalists have to assume the business responsibilities that we didn't do for a long time and kind of figure this out because i think what might said the lives talking about before. it has to be based the public respect for you and your values and the institutions that you run so you have to really be strong and racist and i think that it will be easier in an organization like the chicago is cooperative can i, as a bunch of

revenue streams and that gives a bad appearance. and i think a lot of it is in the value of a journalist and in the value of what you are really driving for and what you are drifting for is a respect of the public and if you have the respect of the public and the readers you can figure out some way to monetize that. >> we have one or two why don't we just take those and then call it a night. you see model or a future where people are going to pay for online content of any quality? >> the question is do either of us see future in which folks will pay for high-quality information online. >> well i think you're seeing that. you see that in bloomberg they pay a lot of money for high-quality information. i think as the newspapers shrinked if and as it becomes difficult for them to keep

providing this information in the smaller papers throughout the country they are charging for online content and they're doing it pretty well they really aren't doing that and they have to because this is unsustainable. you can't give away information and pay journalists to gather information and give away for free but expect to get in and add a market like that. >> maybe one last one. an esteemed former "chicago tribune" correspondent dorothy psp mick i was going to ask you something other critics last few they will claim you were trying to settle scores what is your answer to that? >> you are going to be hammered for settling scores.

i gave the but several people have time does it look like i'm selling scores, if you do, tell me, and i changed them a lot of things for people said you are being a little mean and there's a turn of the phrase it looks a little like a dagger so i kind of eliminated a lot of that and i tried not to. i really did try to say if i were reporting the story as a reporter even though i am involved in a, you know, could i just do an honest job of say what happened. that's really what i wanted to do. this is what happened and i sit up front this is from the bias of a journalist the port in the trenches, this is not -- i try to be pretty upfront about it. but, you know, you're going to get all of that and so i've taken a lot in my day i can to give you more.

i would like to thank lesley for offering this space. thank the folks at c-span, and i'm one of the ones, dorothy, to be a lot of score saddling. much of it as a kind of would have liked to have seen on the one level. but when i put the last page down, i sent jam an e-mail saying you've got more self restraint and i would have had, and i think at the core of it is a book less about personalities who damn about some very significant societal and cultural shifts all seen through the prism of a very important american institution that just happens to be based here in chicago for a long, long time and was central to the workings in many ways of democracy and a

major american city, and i think that will ultimately between what jim is talking about and our citizens in a democracy you can read it and either find things to be hopeful about or see if there is a flask of jack daniel's around. but it's a good, serious important work and congratulations and thanks for spending time with us. [applause]