middle east, eisenhower was out of commission. and secretary of state john foster dulles was on his own, unable to consult with the president as he normally do. and let us bury once and for all the myth that john foster dulles ran american foreign policy in the eisenhower years. everyone close to both men, and i've talked to a number of them, knew that ike was in charge. dwight eisenhower was out of the white house, people hardly believe this, the dwight eisenhower was out of the white house for three and a half months. accepting tonight's on his way to recuperating at gettysburg. ..

>> ike repeatedly discussed possible successors we9h aides, none of whom had a snowball's chance in hell of getting nominated, let alone elected. the only republican with sufficient stature to run was chief justice earl warren of the supreme court, and if you want to know why ike threw cold water on that option, you have to read my other book. [laughter] on eisenhower and civil rights, chapter five in that will tell you all about it. eventually, ike shot down every convinced himself that he would be healthier serving than0+tiu ike also feared that no one else could prevent a nuclear holocaust. in january 1956 eisenhower was informed that in a nuclear exchange with the soviet union

65% of the american population would be casualties. years later chief of staff sherman adams said what surely applies to president obama today, the real reason a president wants to run again, adams said, is because he doesn't think anybody else can do as good a job as he's doing. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. coming up next on booktv, david stokes recounts the murder trial of the reverend j. frank norris in 1927, considered one of the leading fundamentalist voices of his time, the reverend norris preached at the first baptist church of fort worth, texas. on july 17, 1926, the reverend shot and killed an unarmed man in his church office. david stokes reports on the ensuing trial that engaged the nation. this is about 40 minutes. [applause] >> well, back in july of 1926,

85 years ago this month, this country was celebrating its sesquicentennial, our 150th national birthday. and here in texas i imagine it was quite, quite a big deal. but in fort worth, texas, just a ways from here the festivities were overshadowed somewhat by a brewing local battle, one that involved political, religious, business and civic leaders. the catalyst of this particular battle was a preacher. the issues were both public and personal, and the citizens found themselves polarized. some talked about conspiracies and others about troublemakers. and on july the 17th, 1926, it all came to a head when a successful hisman, someone pretty well connected to the movers and shakers of the town, went to pay a visit on a local pastor. but this was not just any pastor. far from the typical man of the cloth of his day, he was a

multifaceted personally ruling -- personality ruling over a religious empire. he presided over the largest protestant congregation in america, in many ways america's first mega church. he was a radio broadcasting pioneer and star, the publisher of a tabloid newspaper, and he was viewed by many even beyond texas as the emerging leader of a movement then near its apex, a movement called fundamentalism. as the businessman argued with the preacher that day, the language became hot, and within a few moments gave way to the thunder of four gunshots, three of which struck the businessman. he fell and was left for dead. no one in the church office that day, and there were about 20 people working there at the moment, approached the wounded man to offer help. soon police arrived and an ambulance, but before he reached a local hospital, he had breathed his last breath. the dead man was named dexter elliot chips known as d. e. to just about everybody. the preacher was the reverend dr. john franklin norris, well

known as j. frank norris or the texas tornado or to many in fort worth simply as "that man." and the story of what happened that day 85 years ago and for the following six months or so is likely what i've called the most famous story you've never heard. and can the story reached all the way here to austin because, eventually, the trial -- which was one of the most celebrated trials of the decade, a decade that was known for famous trials like the scopes trial and, of course, leopold and loeb and the sacco and vanzetti and so forth -- this trial was one of the most cap sating at the time -- captivating at the time. but it's been lost to history. it's a story that has made it into some places, but it's never received its full treatment, i think. the context, of course s the 1920s which i've always found to be a fascinating time. the a time just after when the

world changed, the soldiers, you know, we have just this year in march the last living soldier of world war i, a man 110 years old, was buried at arlington national cemetery. there are no more from that era and, of course, fewer we see every day from the greatest generation, world war ii. but in the 1920s people came back from world war i, and they had a changed view, somewhat i think influenced by what they saw in europe and what we know about the 1920s is you had two things sort of happening at the same time. one is this tremendous revolution in manners and morals in the country. they're sort of casting off restraints. you have women voting, and you have a lot of independents, you have a bit of a sexual revolution that goes on. you have all the media things that come along, radio, of course, begins to become a very popular medium. eventually becoming the media of the day. tabloid newspapers are still

very strong. movies, the film industry had been around for a few years, but really reached its, got its traction in the 1920s. and along with that the cult of celebrity came along, what andy warhol would later describe as 15 minutes of fame, it really existed long before that in the 1920s as sports figures, golfers and baseball players and movie stars became famous. over against that you had this reaction to that revolution. and it was described in an odd word that was created at the beginning of the decade by warren harding who ran in 1920 when he said we want to get back to what he called normalcy. there's no such word. he wasn't the first -- he was the first republican, i guess, to make up words. but he said normalcy, getting back to the way thingsing used to be. and a lot of people that resonated with them because they saw the country sort of blowing apart, a lot of the values that they held were changing, and so you had a number of things that

came along at the same time that sort of emerge. and can one was a movement called fundamentalism. when you hear about the word fundamentalism today, what you usually think of is it's associated an awful lot with islamic fundamentalism and terrorism and, of course, also people throw it in with christian fundamentalism and often make the mistake of using evangelicalism and fundamentalism as interchangeable, and they're not completely interchangeable. but fundamentalism was a reaction to the modern world, and it began as a theological movement that sort of was reaction to some of the theological changes that were taking place in mainstream protestantism. but it became a cultural thing, it was something for people to get involved with. and i think it's hard for us to imagine today, but it was such a pervasive movement in the 1920s that the famous sage of baltimore, a man by the name of h.l. mencken, the baltimore journalist, said in the middle of the 1920s that if you were to heave an egg from a pullman

car anywhere in america, you're bound to hit a fundamentalist in the head. and there were millions of people who embraced it, so it was much more than religious, it was sort of a cultural reaction to the way things have changed. another movement that was very big at least for a time in the 1920s and certainly even here in the state of texas was the ku klux klan. it had seen a revival. there have been many manifestations of the klan even up into our time, many of them marginal, but the most significant her generals -- emergences were, of course, during reconstruction with the origin klan. but in about 1915 there was a regrouping, and by the time you come into the 1920s, this group very patriotic, very pro-america, very anti-immigrant, anti, you know, foreigners kind of thing really takes hold in the culture.

and for a moment in time there is a blending together of a lot of the commonality here of fundamentalism and the ku klux klan. this is something that evangelicals of -- and i am one -- have a difficult time acknowledging. and one of the reasons, i think, they've had a difficult time repudiating it is because they've had a difficult time acknowledging that it was, in fact, a part of the past. but there was a lot of affinity between the klan. the klan was, basically, about three things in the 1920s. it was, of course, a racist organization as it's always been, but it was always anti-semitic as it's always been, but that was very prominent, anti-zionist, the movement was coming along at that time, but it was also, and this is where the story sort of comes in particularly here in texas, it was also anti-catholic. it was sort of a throwback to the old know-nothings. you know, rum romannism and rebel yang. and it was this anti-catholicism that really, i think, was part and parcel of its popularity,

particularly in the american south. and so you have the 1920s. it's certainly the breeding ground for the coming along of demagogues. history tells us this happens, sometimes in the name of religion. along comes this complex character, j. frank norris, the murder trial that captivated america, is about him. this character, john franklin norris or simply known at j. frank. he was born in 1837 in alabama but -- 1877 in alabama but moved at a young age to the hill country of texas where he grew up. he survived a gunshot wound when he was 13 years of age that almost killed him. his father was a hopeless alcoholic, but his mother was extremely devout and the driving force of his life. when he was in his late teens, he experienced a religious conversion and felt the call to the ministry. he went off to baylor which is

where all baptist kids went at that particular time and did his undergraduate work and graduated with honors, and can then he went to the seminary in louisville, kentucky, and began to take his place as one more baptist preacher in america. but he was a gifted person. he was a person who was fiercely ambitious, he was the perpetual or the prototypical, i should say, young man in a hurry. and he caught the notice of some big denominational leaders in the southern baptist world which was a big orbit even back then. and at a young age was tasked because of his writing skills with being the editor of a major baptist periodical in the country that is still publishing today called "the baptist standard," or "the texas baptist standard." and it's during this particular time that he develops a flair for public controversy. he decides to write a series of articles against race track gambling in dallas and in fort worth. and he's credited for leading

the way to see gambling banned in most of texas for the next 20-30 years. and he likes that crusading kind of stuff. well, he becomes the pastor of a church that was a celebrated church called the first baptist church in fort worth, texas, in 1909. it's one of the wealthiest congregations in texas. it's known as the church of the cattle kings. there were 12 millionaires that were in the church, and norris was one of the highest paid clergymen in america at the time. one newspaper in the south voted him the best dressed pastor in america. and he began a ministry that was at first pretty sedate, but eventually he decided he would turn into and morph himself into a sort of a composite. and i've done a lot of radio interviews in the last few days, and i've tried to give people a

feel for what this person was like. and i want you to think about a personality where you take a little bit of billy sunday, and that may with a name that you know -- be a name that you know or don't know, take a little bit of billy graham. that might be easier for you to grasp. and add to that a little dose of william randolph hearst. he was a very famous newspaper man and also someone who had napoleonic tendencies. add to that a great deal of p.t. barnum, a name that's familiar to you because of the sensation and showmanship. and then because it's the '20s and because of norris and some of the things he did, put a little bit of al capone in there because he was very much into winning battles and fighting battles. he built first baptist church from a few hundred people in 1909 to a church that would draw sometimes 10,000 people by the middle of the 1920s. now, there areture churches --

there are churches in america bigger than that now, lots of churches. but there weren't then. it really was the fist mega church in america. but he didn't do it without controversy. there was an area before the days of world war i called hell's half acre. it was where the brothels, gamble houses, bars were and so forth. and it was a place that all the cattlemen that were coming up driving the cattle up with chism trail would stop, so it was infamous. the famous picture of butch cassidy, the real picture, was taken at, in hell's half acre in fort worth. norris decided he would take that on and try to shut it all down. and so he got to being this crusading kind of local pastor cleaning up the city. and, you know, along the way he made a few enemies, and one day his church blew up.

and burned. and rumors were circulating around fort worth, how did this happen? was it the work of the enemies? eventually, many be people believe that j. frank norris burned his church down for the notoriety. in fact, he was charged with arson, then he was indicted for perjury. in fact, on another indictment, he was indicted three times, had two trials and was acquitted on all counts. but it was never fully proven what exactly happened, and i detail that in the book somewhat even though that's not the story i focus on. that in itself is another fascinating story about this guy. well, he leverages the sort of notoriety and celebrity, and he good becomes this big mega church pastor by the middle of the 1920s. let me read this quick passage, one of them illustrating what the media thought about him during this particular period of

time. and, um, it is a description from 1924. earlier in the year in january of 1924, a popular periodical of the day called the world's work, a monthly publication devoted to national/international news written with a reformist bent and a penchant for muckraking, profiled norris as the prospective reader of all baptists in the country. among the shrewdest and most romantically adventurous is j. frank norris in texas. one faction says he totes a gun. the other says he totes two guns. many of frank's former foes adore him as does half of the community. buildings covering a block and more attest his success and his auditorium when alterations are complete will hold 6,000 applausive adherents with a choir of 700. prince of crowd gatherers,

paragon of advertisers, norris has created a new profession, that of church efficiency expert, and is its most brilliant practice decisioner. heralded as the texas cyclone, he will lay hold of some dotterring, dead or alive downtown church, draw crowds into it, galvanize them, get the glorious institution financed and erect a monument to his abilities. after witnessing his performance in cleveland, dr. w.w. buster who was a business leader declared that in the service of a business corporation norris' genius would be worth $50,000 a year. he understated the case. and so that sort of gives you a glimpse of some of the press clippings that were around the country of this name that many of you don't know but who was an emerging figure. now, the story, probably the reason you don't know it is because of the whole thing that happened. most folks are familiar with the

parameters of the scopes trial in dayton, tennessee, in many 1925. the issue was evolution. the lawyers were clarence darrow and william jennings bryan. bryan had been a democratic candidate for president in 1896, 1900 and 1908. he was the nominee three times. in fact, the first time he was only 36 years of age. he was a gifted orator and a hero of the little people. but by the middle of the 1920s he's in his 60s, and he has been sort of relegate canned to an aside role in democratic party politics, and he becomes the leader, really, of this movement called fundamentalism. and the apex of this was when the big trial took place in dayton, tennessee. and, of course, william jennings bryan goes down this to work with the prosecution. a footnote to this is that one of the preacher, in fact, the man probably most responsible for getting william jennings bryan to go to dayton,

tennessee, was j. frank norris. and one of the last things that bryan did before he died just a few days after that trial while he was still in dayton, tennessee, he dropped dead, was write a handwritten note to j. frank norris in fort worth thanking him for his help, for his encouragement in going to the trial, and norris opened that handwritten note after he'd gotten the news that william jennings bryan had died. and he printed the note in his newspaper which at that time had 50,000 subscribers and used it as a way to link himself. and his goal very much was to become the heir to william jennings bryan and become the leader of fundamentalists or what we might call conservative christians in america at the time. and it very well might have happened except that within a year he got into a battle with local city leaders in fort worth, texas. now, he's always fighting them about something. the particular issue this time had to do with taxes, and it was a very interesting little story because first baptist church in fort worth owned a tremendous

part of the, of a downtown block, an entire downtown block in the city of fort worth. and also a part of another block. and for the buildings they weren't using, they rented them out. in fact, the jcpenney store in downtown fort worth rented space from first baptist church. problem was, first baptist church was not paying taxes on those part of the properties being used strictly for income and business purposes. and so as a result of that, norris was taxed, the church was taxed as were some other churches in fort worth at the time. and j. frank norris resisted this and vowed to fight. so he got into a heated battle with the city leaders, including the mayor, a man by the name of henry clay meacham. if you know of forth worth, meacham airport is named after him. he's created for bringing airuation to fort worth, texas, back during that time. are we okay? >> [inaudible]

[laughter] >> all right. >> want me to keep going? >> it needs another nickel. >> it needs another nickel, all right. will[laughter] >> thank you. >> and norris would really use his newspaper, his radio and his pulpit for personal attack. he wouldn't be above just preaching a sermon where he would accuse the mayor of all sorts of things including having an affair and other things. now, you can imagine. this is before there was an fcc. the fcc didn't come along, the first part, department come along until 1947, so it was sort of wide open. you could say anything you wanted to say on the radio. so things got heated up 85 years ago in fort worth. and what happened is a friend of the mayor by the name of d.e. chips, a wealthy businessman, took umbrage to that. decided i'm going to go, you know, speak to this preacher and try to get him to stop and

defend my friend. and is o he went to -- so he went to see norris on july 17, 1926. basically, you know, they had a heated argument. he said you need to stop preaching these sermons, norris said he was going to keep on doing it. and what happened in those next moments was debated, was analyzed, was testified one way or another. a lot of controversy about what really happened. but the facts are that norris picked a gun from his desk, a rolltop december, a picture of william jennings bryan the pacifist was right there on the desk, and i have a picture of this in the book as well as the gun, and shot four times. three of the bullets went in chips, and chips lay dying on his floor. um, to put it in perspective, if you've heard of the mega church preacher rick warren or if you know of a teleadvantage list like pat robertson, how big a

story would it be if one of these guys -- for whatever reason, even in the strictest self-defense -- shot and killed a person in the office? i think in this day of 24/7 news, this would be probably that casey annie who? i mean, it would make it all go away. and that's how big a story it was with the media such as it was at that time. that was a saturday. by the next morning, every newspaper in america because of wire services which is another part of the story that were just coming along got the paper out to every nook and cranny, every small paper, every large paper had a headline about this minister in texas, this ambitious leader who wanted to be the heir to william jennings bryan shooting and killing a man in his office. well, he was indicted, and he was charged with first-degree murder which meant that if he was convicted, he would have faced the electric chair. in texas. the mayor wanted to make sure that norris was convicted so

decided out of his own pocket -- he was a wealthy department store owner -- to hire some extra lawyers, some special prosecutors to help the district attorney. and it was welcomed by the district attorney. and so what you have beginning is this big legal battle that is going to, going to come along with some of the most powerful and influential lawyers of the time. and they have a hearing in fort worth, but it's clear that he can't get a fair trial there because opinion about him is so pronounced. so they vote to move the trial the austin, texas. and the judge sets the date for january of 1927 somehow not realizing that by doing this he makes sure that this trial, which will be one of the most celebrated in the history of texas, takes place the very same week that the youngest-ever governor in the history of the state of texas, a man by the name of dan moody, is inaugurated as the governor of texas.

and by the way, along the campaign trail just a few days after norris killed chips in the church office, dan moody -- because first baptist was the biggest auditorium in town, they had all sorts of events there -- spoke from norris' pulpit as part of his political campaign. so you have the inauguration. at that time austin, texas, has about 50,000 residents. it's sort of a sleepy, quiet university town, state capital. it hasn't seen the boom that, of course, has been seen these years later. and the trial is moved to austin, texas. it draws every media outlet you can possibly imagine. to the trial. and as a result of this trial, um, norris is, his case is brought before the jury. it becomes sort of a duel between lawyers, some of the greatest, most celebrated lawyers, names that are forgotten today. for the prosecution a lawyer by the name of bill mcclain, wild

bill they called him, sort of like an f. lee bailey of the day. and ironically and interestingly, norris' chief lawyer was a man by the name of moses, dayton moses. so he was being led through the wilderness of this trial by dayton moses. and as a result of all of this, this trial took place. i write about it in "the shooting salvationist," and it comes to the point of verdict and just like we sometimes see in trials, the verdict doesn't turn out the way a lot of people who just seem to know the facts think it should turn out. norris does not die in the electric chair. in fact, he lives until 1952, and he has -- he never reaches the place that he wanted to reach. because he's always going to be marred by this story. but he's still a gifted man. he begins to pastor two churches at the same time, one in

detroit, michigan, one in fort worth, texas, commuting back and forth. this in the '30s. 25,000 members between the two churches. after world war ii he gets involved in anti-communism, and he realizes that, hey, roman catholics and he are on the same page, and this man who was against the catholics in the '20s has an audience with pope pius xii in 1947. so's he was an interesting pragmatist. one little footnote, and then i'll take questions if you have them, something i didn't hit. in the 1940s one of norris' young students -- and he was always having young people come along. he was a charismatic kind of individual, and they sort of wanted to be like him and learn from him, and he had a reputation for not taking anything from anybody and so forth. was a young man by the name of john bear. that's -- birch. that's a name that you may know.

john birch became a missionary sent out by norris' church to china. while he was in china, late '30s, early '40s, of course, that's when the war was heating up. john birch got involved with military operations and became an intelligence aide to chenault. john birch was actually a very interesting individual himself. when doolittle's raids over tokyo dropped the bombs and ditched in china, john birch helped recover several of the pilots and take them to safety. john birch was murdered in china right at the end of the second world war by a band of chinese communists. they shot him to death. and norris grieved. he changed the name of the hall of his church to john birch hall. now, why that name is familiar to you is because there's a group called the john birch society. but that group did not start until 1958. by the man by the name of robert

welch. you can see all about it, actually, over here. there's a display about it at president johnson's library over here at the university of texas. what robert welch did is he used the name john birch because john birch, he says, was the fist casualty of world war iii. he was killed by the communists, and used his name to create the john birch society. what's really interesting about it is one of the great features of j. frank norris' work was that -- and you see this throughout the book -- was there was always a conspiracy against him. it was always this group or that group. it was, you know, in the '20s it was the mayor and the catholic interests of town are against him. and then later, of course, john birch's name, a name associated with norris truly in history, but a man who died long before the john birch society associated with a group, of course, that is known for their love of a good conspiracy. so i think it's a fascinating

story. it was hiding in if plain sight. like i say, i've called it the most famous story you've never heard. but it was page 1 news across america in the 1920s, and i'm just grateful that i was able to dig it out, and nobody had gotten to it before me. thank you very much. [applause] take a few of your questions if you have any. and love to talk with you, and then i'm over here, and i'll be happy to sign a book for you, all right? so raise your hand, and we have one over here, get the microphone over to you, sir. can yes, sir. >> how did you get on to the story? what brought you to the issue itself? >> well, i told you earlier that i'm a minister when she introduced me, i'm a minister, and i have been. my background's baptist. and i'm from detroit, michigan. and my mother grew up in the church that he pastored in detroit, michigan, later on after this happened when he pastored these two churches. and so i'd heard the name.

norris died four years before i was born, and so i'd heard the name, and norris -- what i remembered my mom saying, he preached long messages. my grandmother said she used to pack a lunch when he was preaching because he'd preach two-hour sermons. but one day in a chance encounter with somebody i told somebody where i went to church, and even though these things had happened long before in another city, this guy said, well, i'd never go to that church because that's where that pastor was who killed that guy. and i, what in the world is he talking about? so i asked my mother and others and heard the story. they didn't really know the story completely because it happened decades before and nobody talked about it. yeah, that was dr. norris, and he had a fight with somebody back in the '20s, and he killed a guy. so that's how i heard about it the first time as a teenager. then when i went to college i, of course, came across his name as most will when they study those things in depth. and along the way i had a file

folder, and i put little articles. eventually, i got more things, and about 2007 by this time it was several boxes. my wife said, do something with that stuff or else, and so i did. and, eventually, i collected 6,000 pages of court records, newspapers. i have a complete run of norris' newspaper which he published weekly, so a lot of the story is in his own words, and i think that makes it very interesting from an original source kind of standpoint. but that's how i came to know the story. anyone else? yes, ma'am. >> what did you find was most difficult thing about writing the book? >> um, i think, um, it's after i had gotten it done thinking i was done. that was the most difficult, going through edits and rewrites. it was sort of like when my first daughter was born 34 years ago, i made the mistake of saying, boy, i'm glad that's over.

and the doctor sort of reminded me, you know, you're just getting started. when i thought i had finished the manuscript a couple of years ago, but then what we have here is so much better, obviously, than the raw footage of what i had written. that was probably the hardest part. i loved the research. i mean, i just could spend all day long doing that kind of stuff. i liked the actual writing of the book. but going through that postbook when you think you have it done and the editing and all that, probably the most difficult part. yeah. who else? yes, sir. >> what about the last year or two of his life, like, how did he die and what was his health like and what was his political involvement or anything else? >> well, it's very interesting because in 1948, he died in the 1952, he was 74, almost 75 years of age. in 1948 when the great international debate was going on about israel and whether or not there's going to be a new nation for the jewish people in palestine and eventually in may of 1948 it comes to be, and

harry truman 12 minutes after midnight when it happens is the first d we're the first country to recognize the state of israel. actually, norris by that time had become a little bit of an expert on middle east politics and history, certainly from a biblical standpoint. and he actually had an exchange of correspondence with president truman on this. it's an interesting little footnote. also in the 1930s, this is a cool little story that i found out later, it's not in the book. pretty boy floyd who was a gangster, and you can see this in public enemies about john dillinger that was made into the movie a while back, apparently, pretty boy floyd's mother was a fan of j. frank norris on the radio and took her other son -- jackie, i believe his name -- to be baptized by norris. and norris for a brief time played intermediary between the floyd family and j. edgar hoover trying to effectuate the surrender. that's all in burrows' book, but i thought that was an interesting postscript about

norris, and he was always finding a way to get involved in public events. he had a series of health issues in the late '40s, a couple of strokes, and a lot of the stuff that he had built he sort of splintered off, he alienated a lot of people around him. and by the time he died in 1952 several various splinter groups. the group known as independent fundamentalist baptists, sometimes they're called ifb, he really was the first one of that particular group, and they splintered into a lot of different ways. he died at a youth camp. he was speaking at a youth camp in florida in august of 1952, and his body was flown back to fort worth, texas, and he's buried in greenwood cemetery not far from where d.e. chips is buried as well. little interesting closure, i guess, to the story. anybody else with a question? yes. >> how does amos carter figure in this? >> eamon carter, of course, a very famous name to people in

dallas/fort worth, was the publisher of the fort worth star telegram, the president of the fort worth club, a big place for the movers and shakers of fort worth at that time. eamon carter was the president of that club. he was one of the pal bearers at the funeral of d.e. chips. he was a friend of chips. he managed, he was a pretty wise person. he managed not to allow himself to get baited and sort of drawn into j. frank norris' web. but i deal with him an awful lot in the book, and he's a fascinating character. and after mayor meacham died, mayor meacham's daughter, minnie, married eamon carter. and they were a very big power couple until carter died -- >> when was that? >> probably in the early 1930s. and they were married when he died in the middle 1950s. that was his wife, and it was the daughter of mayor meacham. and to this day their papers are together at university of texas at arlington. i researched them, the

meacham/carter family papers -- >> kind of distanced himself from the norris -- >> yeah. everybody sort of forgot about it, you know? that's why this story sort of went away because on the one hand the baptists, you know, it was an embarrassment to them. norris didn't want to talk about it. texans didn't want to talk about it because it brought in the klan and things we'd just as soon forget about. it sort of gets buried you should the silt of time -- under the silt of time, and that's where it's been. >> did norris ever talk about the klan and just say later that that was a mistake? >> i never found any evidence where he actually dealt with that particular issue. certainly, the klan went away, certainly norris in later -- >> involved with the klan early out, wasn't he? >> he was. i don't know whether he was a member or not, but he certainly spoke at their rallies, the local grand dragon in fort worth was a member of norris'

congregation. norris actually, in 1925, ordained him and put him on the staff as an assistant pastor while the man remained the brad grand dragon of the local ku klux klan. but times changed and he moderated his views, certainly, as many people did. you go back and look at major figures in the 1920s, senator robert byrd had a little record with the klan and so fort. and it's unfortunate. i haven't found where norris ever had a sermon where he said i'm so sorry for what i did. he did express regrets about some of his stuff, but a lot was just in the body language. he showed his change by doing things differently. for a man to go from being an anti-catholic to having an audience with the pope and actually getting a blessing is a pretty big paradigm shift. but he was an opportunist, is what he was. >> that's what i was going to say. >> that's my view of him. i think, you know, was he sincere, you know?

it's hard -- i can't put myself in anybody's shoes. i think that, i certainly think there were some core things he believed in, but i also think he believed in himself, and i think he was an opportunist and seized the moment. and i think the cautionary tale is of the cult of personality. when, you know, people take themselves too seriously and other people take them too seriously and follow people blindly. i think that's part of the difficulty. anything else? yes, sir. >> i don't know if you've read any of robert harris' book about sociopaths? >> no, i haven't. but you could probably build a case -- >> do you think norris might have been a sociopath? >> just my armchair thing is people don't experience regret, you know, they don't seem to have anything. i don't think i'd go that far. i think norris did regret things, and there's stuff people have told me over the years that, you know, he never got over that particular moment. in the his public persona, i

think he liked that controversial tough guy kind of thing. this was a day and age even before world war ii when people just didn't talk about their feelings very much and not very transparent about things. and i think he sort of enjoyed that persona even though deep inside it may have troubled him, some of the things that may have happened in his early ministry. okay. one more over here. we get two for one tonight. >> does your book cover the back story of the history of the times, or is it -- >> yes. one of the things -- that's a great question. i wish i could have asked you to ask that question, that's how good a question that is. and i didn't. when i wrote this, i am not from fort worth, texas. i'm from detroit, michigan. i'm a yankee. that's even worse, you know? and i've spent all of my ministry and life in the new york city area and now down in the washington, d.c. area on the east coast. so i knew that i would be writing a lot about fort worth,

texas, and i wanted to make sure i got that right. i wanted to make sure that if somebody grew up around there, knew people, that they'd read the book and say this guy did his homework and his research. so there's a lot about fort worth. in fact, some people have said maybe i put too much detail in it. i don't think i have. but there's a lot about the city, something i grew to appreciate. and that's what drew bob schieffer of cbs news. he wrote the forward to the book, graciously, because he said, you know, he'd heard these things when he grew up in fort worth. in fact, he says in the forward that if he hadn't grown up in fort worth, he would have thought somebody made all this stuff up. but, he said, nobody did. it really happened. and he was gracious and kind. and i thought that was a nice compliment that somebody that loved fort worth that much would take this work seriously enough to do that. okay, again, thank you very much, and i appreciate you taking the time to come and listen, and i hope you enjoy the book. [applause]

>> david stokes on the murder trial of reverend j. frank norris. for more information about the book, visit theshootingsalvationist.com. >> around the '90s and the first decade of this century, this other paradigm emerged for how to create a chatbot which was, basically, to turn it loose onto the internet and have it simply observe what people say to it. so you can almost imagine, like, this martian landing on the earth, and someone comes up to it and says, hi. and the martian pulls out this giant ro lo deck and says, humans often begin can conversations by saying, "hi." interesting. [laughter] and then the martian walks down the street and comes up to someone and says, "hi," and then that person says, "hey, what's up?" it goes, humans often go, hey, what's up, when you say hi.

and in this very pain staking process but over the course of, in many cases, decades of just hanging out online waiting for people to, you know, cross its path and talk to it, it builds this massive database of real stuff that people say. and you find when you interact with this kind of software this very uncanny ability to respond to all sorts of things. so, for example, i attempted to see if it would reply to me if i spoke in french. and i found that my french was not only understood, but actually corrected. [laughter] um, sort of condescendingly, it told me the grammatically correct version of the sentence that i had given it. um, and you often find if you try to give it song lyrics, it will sing back to you. so i had a conversation where i started typing in lyrics from