situation and it's a complicated situation. dr. rivlin, let me just ask you do you believe that it would be harmful to at this point have dramatic cuts in federal spending? >> i do. >> and why? >> because it cuts into the demand. you lay off people from a federal -- from the federal work force or from the state work force but are supported in part by a federal grants. you cut back on payments going directly to people as unemployment compensation or food stamps or the other programs, safety net programs. nobody's going to cut those

first, but some of the extensions. so, people have less money to spend, and they don't spend it and the recession gets worse. i believe that is why the first package of the stimulus package prevented a worse and a deeper recession although it wasn't perfectly designed to do that. >> what do you believe? >> i agree. i think that's that large and immediate cut in spending certain kinds of spending or more stimulant than others. it's quite interesting to me that we have delayed extending unemployment insurance. we know -- again on the employment insurance and a healthy economy could convince workers not to take jobs but in this kind of economy the unemployment is hard to make that case, and the money is a very powerful stimulus for safe

food stamps and other things. and i find that really puzzling that some economists will say well, any talk of the tax increases anywhere at any time has a terrible depressive affect but cutting spending right now is perfectly fine. that flies in the face of anything i've learned about macroeconomics. spending increases and cutting taxes really have relatively similar effects in the macroeconomic models to say that one is terrible it really doesn't make any sense and i think flies in the face of the evidence we have. immediate cuts in spending of the kinds talked about what have depressive effect on the economy. >> dr. foster? >> thank you, senator. but you see here is two very different concept of how the economy works. this isn't it the ultimate this is and partisanship, but different views on how the economy works.

i believe a lot to me, i believe when you start with lead to end up with lead and you don't end up with a gold. when government increases its spending and increases its borrowing the money had to come from someplace. it's not like the fed which actually converted dollars, the treasury doesn't print dollars it had to come from someplace. if it's going to come from someplace it is not there anymore. it's not there. maybe it would have been consumers buying cars are buying in-house. the trade deficit would have been lower and was given to to import as much capital from abroad. we will never know where the money came from sweet cannot wave a wand and produce purchasing power by running the budget deficits. it's not a question as a city all of your partisanship. it's a very different conception of how the economy works. >> i think that's fair. >> and its healthy to discuss these differences. it's amazing as some of my colleagues want to suppress

these debates i don't think they should be suppressed. a think it's critically important we have these debates and have these discussions. i think it's entirely healthy. senator sessions. >> i do, to mike and thank you for allowing us to do so. we've had some good hearings on policy earlier last year and it's helpful today. we are supposed to have more time and senator alexander was talking and he decided not to participate in the leadership but be enacted kucinich really is the question of the fierce debate and noted the history and the fights in history and the doles and the senate so he said we need to work together to accomplish the common goals but could debate is healthy. >> mr. foster, i remember before the first stimulus package

passed reading of the nobel prize laureate gary becker who'd written and not in "the wall street journal" saying this was not going to work. he predicted it wouldn't work. you predicted it wouldn't work. you sort of touched on it, but the essentially when you borrow money to spend money, that money comes from somewhere, and i believe you just some of the problem that has a negative impact also. now our chairman mentioned the reinhardt study that said gross debt reaches 90% of gdp then you have consequences on. the 1% growth is lost. i think the study said one to 2%

was lost. perhaps it's coincidence, but we have 90% of gdp in every part of this year, january and the growth of people, the omb and the cbo projected growth this year to be 3.1%, and it's not going to be close to that. it's going to be about zero-point or to be lewd act. dr. zandi i teased and yesterday he predicted 3.9%. now moody's analytics firms is predicting for the year 1.6. i have my doubts we are going to reach that so 1.6 is about 2% below what he predicted. do you think it is possible, i ask all three of you, that the

unexpected fall and growth projections from the blue chip economists and the government and dr. zandi, do you think that could be because we've already reached this debt limit that empirical studies indicated what cause a decline in gross? dr. rivlin, you want to start and just if you have an opinion. >> i do have an opinion. i think it is interesting, but totally irrelevant coincidence, and the reason i think that is the study which is a fascinating piece of work as you know, but it looks at averages over all kinds of different countries over several hundred years, and it certainly doesn't indicate that all countries are the same, and the united states on unfortunately in my opinion has

a very strong ability to borrow money cheaply. we have abused that fact by borrowing too much money cheaply for a long time, but you look at a country like greece right now or even a italy or spain they are in trouble because they can't borrow more money except at very high interest rates, and that's killing them. that's not happening to us. i don't see any mechanism that is causing us at some particular size of debt to face the market reaction. that doesn't mean we should go on increasing the debt forever. i think that's very a deleterious but this coincidence i think it's just that. >> thank you. so you see it as different maybe this time. >> different for the united

states because the world thinks that we are the safest place to put their money, and i never hope we disabuse them of that. islamic that is an advantage we have. doctor, do you have any connection between the unexpectedly low growth and the study? >> i don't think hitting the 90% figure -- i don't think my reading -- >> its 100% now. >> that having read that book and it is a fine study, i don't think that reinhart intended for us to believe the magic cliff as soon as we draw the line of the recall this is a rough estimate of the point at which these difficulties start to grow on average over many economies and many periods of time. nothing in their analysis suggests a cross this line and terrible things start to happen. we agree we have a major

long-term debt problem and there is no dispute about that on this panel, but i wouldn't -- i see no evidence that the capitol markets are reacting in ways right now that are leading because you cross that line that that is leading to slow growth. i think what is happening in other parts it simply says that when the financial bubble bursts you have the deleveraging in most sectors of the economy that deleveraging is the demand and they predicted a very slow recovery from this. i think what we are seeing is in line with exactly what they predicted. not to mention all these other deleterious effects in the last year. i think they've contributed very importantly, and i think of course a lot of the turmoil here in washington, d.c. i think has contributed to a lot of the uncertainty and the unwillingness of the young players to step forward and do more to the estimate dr. foster. headwinds in the economy and the

oil prices and the tsunami and so forth, the low forecaster put out a forecast assuming no had when this. the headwind seven of the time and the strong economy overcomes them. one of the head wind could be the 90%, but not in the manner that the study suggested. as dr. rivlin pointed out the studies suggested that you cross the threshold which is proximate, and you get a good interest rate so we are not seeing that today. it's not a mechanism of which there's an effect that there is an effect and that is on about uncertainty. the american people are worried. we may think they should be worried and we may think they shouldn't be worried. they are worried and that is that uncertainty. it's a bad uncertainty and training of the vitality of our economy. so it does matter but not for reasons suggested. >> you raised the point let's take the first stimulus. the money has been spent, correct? >> every stimulus we got is gone

now. what are the permanent costs of the $825 billion expenditure right now? >> as the carrying cost of the service cost from the interest so that is certainly quantifiable and then there's the unquantifiable, which is the end pediment that there is that uncertainty making the decisions the would result in the stronger economy. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator. >> senator begich? >> chairman, thank you very much. i actually want to follow the ranking member's line and then i have a couple other questions on housing over all. but, you know, what are the permanent results? let me describe -- if this was a man is a pro-government, the stimulus, the 300 billion or so, shy of that was in for the capital prevoyance debt

financing like any other local government like i did as the mayor we would build a road, the money would be spent. that's correct, you're absolutely right, but here this the results. there's the road, economic development occurs. i will give you an example of the stimulus money, and i am glad we are getting more of this debate because i agree with a ranking member the money is gone but here's a result can tell you from alaska. i can't tell you from alabama or other states but i can tell you from alaska we build a hospital to be completed in alaska to employ 170 additional people, provide quality health care making a more livable community in the area of alaska which would have growth. it built some roads which mean a new economic development in the private sector investment which means more tax revenue which means more money being generated which means more bills being paid and so forth and so on.

we are invested into helping a shipyard which now landed 150 million-dollar construction of a new ship or senior housing they will provide housing which is paid for by the individuals who live there which generates revenue stream. the way the federal government does the budget is the goofiest thing i've ever seen and i am hopeful as the chairman and the ranking member talked a reforming it is to types, the capitol budget and the operating budget because you do bar for the capitol, private sector does it, public sector does it, federal government is just a convoluted mess. you shouldn't borrow for the operational but nothing borrowing for the capitol investment and recovery money was predominantly that. then there was about $300 billion which was tax money that we took from people but we

gave it back sofer money to the payroll deduction. we gave it back to them. so mr. foster, i'm trying to -- so there's no permanent value for investing in this and it infrastructure investments when you use the recovery money or -- help me understand what -- i don't get that. >> in my written testimony which i didn't put in my eight minutes of reading i pointed out that i wasn't commenting on what the appropriate level of infrastructure spending is from what you say it sounds like alaska may have had the only shovels ready products in america. >> when they say only and no jobs created, that is an opinion it is not based on fact. >> i would say that is based on the simple set of logic you spend the money you created the infrastructure jobs were created while they were building infrastructure no doubt about

that in those locations you distribute can show people working. so you can definitely show that those jobs were there. what you know was you had to borrow the money and when you borrow the money it wasn't available to be used elsewhere by somebody or something. ayman of people to to camera crew to show that jobs destroyed but i know they were there. >> let me ask if you borrow that money in the theory i'm not an economist, a person that's been in the business world since the age of 14. so, if you have so much more money available and you see that so much is taken out by that kind of borrowing and effective than what would happen is the rates would go up to start controlling the expenditures because obviously to be flexible if i have a product it's selling off my shoulders like crazy i'm going to increase the price to the customer until we hit a certain point the interest rates went the other way, the

flattened so it didn't do what you said, what it did do with certain banks don't lend money, they hold it because they can do other things with it but they are not getting out to the economy so the argument really doesn't hold up because it is flat and then at the lowest levels in decades if the money was less interest rates would go up. the problem is one of the things about the interest rates is they are a great many influences on interest rates and right now the dominant influence, our interest rates and i don't mean just today but by 2010, to doesn't mind, in fact growing up in 2000 were other forces at play for instance china's buildup of the foreign exchange reserve is putting downward pressure on interest rates. that's been a factor long time. right now we have the euro crisis and money is flowing into the country driving down the interest rate so the interest rate is not a sign of what i said not being true. >> but, cheap money for business is good money if they are

expanding so that hasn't been the problem. it has been a problem of the people that control faucets. i'm telling you from reality, not from a study and research and all that, i'm talking about a person that has had to go through this who still goes through it. on the rates capital for a very high-risk enterprise in the central retail business and economy that is fragile, so i don't buy your argument always want to do is make sure assure what you are saying. as of the businesses -- let me move on to housing because this to me is a big issue and there's a piece of legislation pending. i don't understand why we don't do that and that is a couple of us in fact my colleague who is not accurate not senator merkley and i advocated this two years ago. two years of a bad economy is improved but it's still rough

out there but then you have some people that have been paying on these loans and their mortgages for two solid years of not missing a payment, at - equity. banks have no incentive to refinance them, not one incentive because why? they are paying. why would they change the now and give them a lower rate? unless they are a big customer and will to keep their business but if you're an average working-class it is tough so why not just say to these folks here is what we are going to do. for you pay last two years in using this as a hypothetical by the this is fair and survived the last two years paying your payment to have negative equity and seven present whenever the loan rate might be, we want to give you the ability to refinance the the market rate which is about 4.25, and the federal research will buy those papers from the banks. so there is no worry of the market tried find out if they would buy them or not, just wouldn't do that because of the default the welcome back to us

any way. let me start from here and then go down. your comment on that? would put an enormous amount into the economy. >> i agree with that. it would lower debt payments of those families. you can't do it for everybody, but where you have evidence of having made the payments and they are under water but you may have to have a limit on how much they are under water but i think enabling them to refinance is a very good thing to do. i'm not sure that i did have the federal reserve by the paper you've got feeney and freddie still there. >> hanging on by a thread but that's okay they will tell us we have no control over it does that affect the yonah 90% of them. >> but you agree with that concept? >> it's hard for me to comment on the specific proposal because it's outside of my area of

expertise to i would say this is clear that housing is an enormous drug on the economy. the efforts to date to improve it has been hugely insufficient i think to deal with the level of problem we have and to stabilize the market and to stabilize the market the would be a major drag on the economy for many years to come. so i welcome the proposals along the line but i think that a general level they do make sense and it's a much needed area to make more effort than we have. >> i think that is fundamentally correct. people that have been making their payments on time for an extended basis cannot refinance their mortgages. with the best mechanism a share dr. ruslan's concern the best way to do this there may be simple regulatory adjustment, but why people of proven they are able to make the payments shouldn't be allowed to make

smaller payments. >> so you agree on the concept? yes, sir. skype i left my question with three people agreeing on something with potential. i better stop while i am ahead. >> that's really good when you can get all three agreeing. >> senator. >> thank you mr. chairman. thank you, appreciate all of you coming to testify before the committee today to read dr. rivlin, i want to ask about reforms to entitlement programs specifically medicare. as understand in the november 2010 proposal in which you did some work with congressman loci -- paul ryan, there was a recommendation in that proposal that we raise the medicare eligibility age incrementally by two months per year to the age of 67, and i

wanted to get your views. one of the concerns i have is that as we look at where the rising health care costs where an entitlement spending is going we need to make some responsible decisions in ways that protect the programs around here to make sure that they are preserved for those relying on that particularly with the recent medicare trustees' report that came out saying that essentially goes belly up in 2024. wanted to get your view but there you think we should gradually raise the age and what ought to have for medicare to make it more sustainable for the future generations? >> the work that i did when congressman ryan focused on seeing we never had a complete proposal but seeing if we could get a bipartisan proposal on the premium support, and i had forgotten that he had raising

the age that isn't part of what he and i were working on, but i do believe a version of the premium support particularly the one i worked up with senator domenici and our task force which is actually different from what paul ryan was talking about, anyway, i think it is a very good approach to the future control on medicare. raising the age possible for a long period doesn't save a lot of money because the young seniors between 65 to 67 are not terribly expensive as people my age are more expensive, and the -- most of them are not working and don't have coverage, so you might then transfer those costs

to the exchanges on the affordable care at as they get set up, but that's not an advantage to the federal government. so i'm a little skeptical of raising the age although it certainly ought to be in the mix of things considered. >> do you believe we fundamentally need to reform what we are doing with respect to medicare in order to preserve it? >> i do. and i can't there are several fundamental reforms possible, but the one that i have come out in favor of which is a very bipartisan. >> we can get a medicare provider kutz? >> nope. >> does anyone else on to comment on that on the panel? >> dr. rivlin is exactly right. we are providing medicare right out of existence where people when they are my age and they start to think about where you

might retire to you have to start thinking about if you move how your doctor is going to see you. dr. availability is an issue in this country because we keep pushing these provider cuts. we are killing a program that we need with provider cuts and we have to start shifting the structure of the program to make it affordable in the manner i think essentially dr. rivlin was describing. >> i appreciate your answers on that. i want to also ask about the concept of tax reform. dr. rivlin, you participated in the president's fiscal commission, as did my predecessor who might have great respect for, and to the fiscal commission recommended as did i believe the chairman of the committee recommended in its proposal tax reform that would simplify the tax code, and lower

rates in terms of how we would reform the tax code. do you still believe that that is the best way to go forward on tax reform? >> i do. i think that we have an enormous opportunity because there is bipartisan support for the city and there has been for a long time. the tax code quite drastically to get rid of almost all of the special provisions or transform them in a way that is more pro-growth and that we can lower their rates and raise more money. and i believe we do need more money, and that a tax reform is the path to doing that. schenectady believe tax reform -- i would also like the other panelists to comment on this, but if we do tax reform and in that manner that we can actually

help in terms of when we look at our economy competitiveness in terms of using the tax code as a way to help our economy? >> i agree simplifying the tax code and lowering the rates and getting rid of a lot of the special provisions that cause distortions in the economy is a good thing. >> i would agree that broadbased, that kind of comprehensive tax reform of the lower rates and closing the loopholes is a good thing and should be a big part of this discussion, but again i would add important caveat to that. number one, like alice rivlin it's important to use this as a mechanism to raise revenue. given the crisis and the debt we all agree on to having the revenue neutral tax reform efforts makes no sense at all. it's an opportunity to raise more revenue they need to to get advantage of that opportunity. and second i think it is

possible to make the tax system even more progressive than it is right now by an employee does mechanisms. tens of billions of dollars currently go in the tax expenditures to the very high income americans that provide no positive benefit to the economy and exacerbate the jury and come inequality. we have incredible levels of income inequality that this country hasn't seen since the gilded age that's unmatched anywhere in the industrial world. a lot of it is grown within the last few decades in a way that is not reflective of any productive activity in the economy. this kind of tax reform i think would be yet another possible mechanism of addressing that. so i say for that kind of broad based comprehensive tax reform but those provisions used to raise revenue and improve the progress of the same time. >> to be very clear we use the concept of tax reform and you are suggesting that they be used as a way of raising revenue except from the economic growth

you gain and thereby use fraud. tax reform means revenue neutral. we can have to be bates let's have a tax system and let's have more revenue. the to the gates to keep them separate or you want to either. i don't mind not having that tax increase part but as dr. rivlin suggested that is something the would be important for the economy but it's not in the context of the tax reform just about the lower rates. you also have to correct the tax base. it's not just what your tax so when we talk about getting rid of the tax expenditures and broadening the base your heading down the wrong road and you're going to create the benefit from their rates and exacerbate the problems by eliminating everything you can find 50 years ago as a tax expenditure. the concept should be the neutral tax base so you eliminate the distortion because you properly define them at a lower rate. thank you. >> thank you, doctor. >> thank you, senator. senator nelson. >> you can start with the concept of financial basic tax

reform. but then if you get additional revenue of seven growth, and i want to ask you all about the growth and the scoring of a, you could do a tax reform the you get new revenue and could be used to a very salutary purpose which is deficit-reduction. it doesn't mean it has to go to spending. it can go to deficit reduction. so let me ask you all. one of the problems on the question that is revenue neutral do we have a problem on scoring with cbo as to whether or not it's been to be revenue neutral? in other words, each of the three of you talked about what

the senator asked that simplifying the tax code, lowering the rates because you got rid of a lot of the preferences will cause economic growth. economic growth is going to produce new tax revenue. do we have a way of scoring that new tax revenue as a result of growth? >> i think you have to be careful of bigot claims, how fast the economy would grow if you lowered the rate. i believe that it would come and i believe that the simplification would help. but once you get into making claims that this particular thing is going to grow the economy like gangbusters, then somebody else like my colleague

mr. holzer might say that if you improve the skills of the american public dramatically of workers isn't that going to contribute to growth? , and you have to be a little conservative about these claims. i do believe that we would get additional growth but i also believe we need additional revenue because we cannot observe this tsunami of retirees and the higher health care cost even if we are successful in reducing the rate of growth without more revenue or we will close on the whole rest of the government. >> just this one footnote. i agree with all of that but the federal government revenue, federal revenue as a percentage of gdp i believe are the lowest levels since about 1950. we keep seeing the political rhetoric about the taxes and there is no question there are ways of structuring the tax system devotee probably more

beneficial of economic growth like if all of us were designing the tax system we would move more in the direction although i believe the tax productivity, but the federal government is now taking less than 15% of gdp relative to the burden of spending that we are committed to as the baby boomers retire. it really makes no sense not to talk about the revenue enhancement and makes it impossible to talk about seriously dealing with the deficit without being serious about the revenue enhancement. >> of course we are up about 14.5% of gdp because the recession and congress continues to push additional tax relief at the payroll tax relief. if you look at projections further out, you end up closer to the traditional 18.5% gdp as a revenue. so the current measure of the revenue is no indicator of whether we need additional revenue what everyone thinks about additional revenue and senator, to answer your question

directly we do not really have the capacity credibly right now the federal government at the joint tax committee or the congressional budget office to do a credible economic analysis and doing a great many years with little progress, but we don't really have that and dr. rivlin is right we have to be careful of these claims about what the different tax reform proposals would do for the economy and we would all agree since the reform would produce a stronger economy the would generate additional revenues the could be used for deficit reduction is we don't have the ability we are developing the ability very rapidly at the heritage foundation and the senate for the analysis but even there this is an art form we are learning how to develop how to work. it's not some software that you can go down to kmart and pull off the shelf. >> we are engaged in a political moment in time that we have the

opportunity for tax reform and if we don't gravid that we have lost years in the opportunity to do something significant. what i'm trying to understand is from you experts is what is the consequence of the beneficial consequences of simplifying the tax code and getting rid of a lot of those preferences. as a practical matter you're not going to get rid of all the preference is because too many of them are in grand in what is considered fair and reasonable such as mortgage interest, such as charitable deductions. but maybe there is a limit to that and there are a bunch of other tax preferences that we've seen that have grown up over the years because people have had

the ability to get to the decision makers to get their particular tax aging scratched, and i want to see us take this opportunity and this super committee is the opportunity. i want to just ask one technical question, dr. rivlin. you said that your task force with senator pete domenici had come up for some version of premium support. can you define that with regard to medicare? >> yes. on the version that we support would say the following. seniors after a certain date would get a choice whether they stay in ordinary fee-for-service medicare or go to a new exchange on which they could choose a plan and would be competition

among health plans and the health plan would be compensated by medicare or risk adjusted way this is a vulture you go out and shop around. but, and this is where the scoring comes in. the zero original amount of the subsidy for medicare would be the same whether you stay in the fee-for-service or go to the exchange, but it would increase on the at a defined rate. the rate we chose was gdp plus 1% that's a little lower than the current increase fox the competition on the exchange has brought the cost down within that and if it didn't whether you were in the exchange or in the fee-for-service system you would have to pay an additional

premium, could be means tested premium it would be a premium and if the congress decided the was shifting too much cost to the beneficiaries, and you might worry about that you could change the formula but that's how it works. >> mr. chairman, do you remember when we were doing with the health care bill how the critics were saying about the role was going to come to an end when he were taking on the medicare hmo medicare and vintage? did you hear the cms announcement last week that nationally the premiums for medicare advantage as a result of the reforms that we did in the health care bill has gone down 4%, and the enrollment has gone up 10%.

now, let me just add you know what it is in florida? the premiums have gone down 26% in the enrollment has gone up 20% in the state with the largest number of enrollees in medicare that vantage. >> the predictions were that would be the opposite. we are going to kill the program. instead the program has thrived. so much for all the expertise within the beltway. senator sessions, any last words? >> thank you, mr. chairman. senator begich made a reference to this and the roads that are built. i was very disappointed at how little infrastructure was in the bill. roads and bridges specifically were 3%, and i do agree that

while we can dispute where to get a real growth from a stimulus road-building program you can't dispute where you have a road and bridge that you can use and that's beneficial whereas most of the money that we spend in this program or one time expenditures that did not to reappoint me ask i also what note that cbo scored that stimulus package over ten years as having a net to the economy discordant as being positive before it passed and being positive in the short run. i'm afraid what policy we've had and i think now we're beginning to draw on the negative. in the response to the question from me last week dr. zandi responded i do not think 2.4 trillion is enough, talking about the cuts that the

committee of 12 is charged with cheating. he goes on to say i think we need -- if you do the arithmetic rating there's a general consensus that we need 4 trillion in a ten year deficit reduction that 2.4 trillion is not enough, no. would you agree, i ask you if you can be brief would you agree with that? >> i would definitely agree with that. i think the consensus in the domenici rivlin group and others that have looked at this problem, if you are going to stabilize the debt you need four to 5 trillion in savings over the next ten years. >> what you call for in your commission. >> yes. >> it gets into some baseline problems but that is the basic story. >> dr. holzer? >> i tend to agree to .4 is

probably too little and it needs to be in that three to 4 trillion-dollar range and of course there are many ways of measuring the different baselines that can be used. we have a caveat that i would add as once again the deficit reduction in the short term could be harmful to growth depending on how it is done and it could further reduce the revenue coming in and require more automatic expenditures. so it's important to balance the overall number with a ' of a lot of the professions. we are going to be facing slow economic growth perhaps for much of the rest of the decade. so we have to trade off and balance of the serious debt reduction that we need but doing it in a bay and the matter and the timing that doesn't put an undue burden on the economy over the next handful of years. >> dr. zandi, i ask you to respond to that question and then with regard to the idea of another stimulus, you spend 400

or so billion dollars that digs the debt hole deeper and we have to raise that money before we even get back to the level that we are now in terms of the projected debt situation. would you comment? >> yes, basically it is assembly of matter you have to stabilize your debt as a share of gdp and then from that point forward so in a sense as the president suggested it is a matter of math. scores this ascent too he's referring to and you don't have to get there all at one the congress just passed one bill with $900 billion to solve the progress you can do it in a series of steps that they do have to be short-term steps. that is one falling quickly upon the other. >> and you think that they are 2.4 trillion is not enough? >> i think eventually you are going to need something closer to four or five especially for sliding into recession again for the purpose of the very, very

slow growth. we are not going to be getting the revenue that is expected and the deficit is going to be that much larger and the whole we have to dig out of is that much deeper. >> thank you, senator. let me just say i guess part of the fiscal commission senator gregg and i have pushed that starting five years ago because we saw that we were headed for debt threat overhanging the economy that had to be faced up to. we agreed that everything had to be on the table. we agreed we need fundamental entitlement reform. to my colleagues on the left that resist that, i just say i don't know any way around it. the harsh reality is you look at the demographics, if you look at the budget we have to deal with the entitlement side of the ledger. that is the biggest part of the

federal budget. it didn't used to be. it used to be about one-third of the federal spending. now it is 60% and growing, and the demographics are as clear as they can be. so to the friends of mine on the left that say you've got it all wrong we don't have to touch that, really? the trustees say that we are headed for insolvency, and then my friends on the right to say you don't have to touch revenue. really? revenue is the lowest it's been in 60 years as a share of national income. that's where it is. it's the lowest it's been. spending is the highest it's been a to me it's very clear you have to work on both sides of this equation. to those who say that is a job killer, that isn't what the evidence shows this is a look at

different top marginal rates and what economic growth has been treated at the end here is the top marginal rate of 28 to 31%. the economic growth during that period, average employment growth has averaged 1.1%. now the top rate of 35% virtually no unemployment growth. 38.6, which is what we had the previous top rate was half of 1%. and we had the top marginal rate of 39.6% employment growth averaged 2.4%. when we had the top marginal rate of 50%, employment growth averaged 2.1%, and on up from

there. so, you know, this idea that the top marginal rate is a job killer with no evidence in the real world and the real economy that that is true there is no evidence that that is true. so i'd know. we're in a very skilled debater mature between the two parties to me. very stale and it is not going to solve the problem to be stuck with a stale, tired and sony debate. at some point we have to get real. getting a real means both sides have to get off their fixed position and the faster it happens, the better. i thank the witnesses for participating today and we stand adjourned.

[inaudible conversations]

for on very short notice coming to the senate floor for these brief remarks. madam president, next january

following the annual retreat of republican senators, i will stope down from the senate republican leadership. my colleagues have elected me as republican conference chairman three times, and i will have completed four years or the equivalent of two two-year terms at the time. the reason for doing that is this: stepping down from the republican leader will liberate me to spend more time trying to work for results on issues that i care the most about. that means stopping runway way regulations, runare away spending, but it also means confronting the timidity that allows us to -- or that allows health care spending to squeeze out support for roads, support for research, support for scholarships and other government functions that make it easier and cheaper to create

private-sector jobs. i want to do more to make the senate a more effective place to address serious issues. for four gleers our caucus my leadership job has been this: toirks help the leader succeed, to help individual republicans succeed, to look for a consensus within our caucus and to suggest a message. i have enjoyed that, but there are different ways to offer leadership in the united states senate. and i've concluded that after nine years, that this is now the best way for me to mik make a contribution. it boils down to this: serving in this body is a rare privilege. i'm prying to make the best use -- i'm trying to make the best use of that time while ip i am here. for the same reason i plan to step down in january from the leadership, i will not be a candidate for leadership in the next congress. but i do intend to be more, not less, in the thick of resolving

issues, and i do plan to run for reelection to the united states senate in 12014. -- in 2014. these are serious times. every american's jobs is on the line. the united states still produces about 23% of world's wealth, even though we only have about 5% of the world's people. but all around the world people are realizing that there's nothing different about their brains than our brains and they're using their brain power to try to achieve some of the same kind of standard of living that we've enjoyed here. as a result of this, some have predicted that within a decade, for the first time since the 1870's, the united states will not be the world's largest economy. they say china will be. my goal is to help keep the united states of america the world ph's strongest economy. now, madam president, there are two other matters that are relevant to the decision that i'm making today that i'd like to address.

the first is this: when i first ran for the united states senate in 2002, i said to the people of tennessee -- and they weren't surprised by this -- that i will serve with conservative principles and an independent attitude. i intend to continue to serve in the very same way. i'm a very republican republican. i grew up in the mountains of tennessee and still live there a in a congressional district that's never elected a democrat to congress since abraham lincoln was president of the united states. my great-grandfather was once asked his politics. he said, i'm a republican. i fought for the union. i vote like i shot. i've been nominated five times by tennessee republicans to serve in public office. i've imn elected three times by senate republicans as conference chairman. if i could get a 100% republican solution of any of our legislative issues, i would do it in a minute. but i know that the senate

usually requires 60 votes for a solution on serious issues, and we simply can't get that with only republican votes or only democratic votes. second, by stepping down from the leadership, i expect to be more, not less, aggressive on the issues. and i look forward to that. the senate is created to be the place where the biggest issues producing the biggest disagreements are argued out, and i don't buy for one minute that these disagreements create some sort of unhealthy lack of civility in the united states senate. i think those who believe that the debates today in our senate are more frock schuss than the debates in our -- are more fractious than the debates in our political history have forgotten what adams and jefferson said of one noamplet they've forgotten that vice president burr killed former secretary of treasury alexander hamilton. they've forgotten that

congressman houston was walking down the streets of washington one day, came across a congressman from ohio who opposed andrew jackson's indian policy and starting caning him, for which he was cren siewmpletd they've forgotten that there was a south carolina congressman who came to the floor of senate and nearly killed behighting him with a stirks the senator from massachusetts and they've forgot than another senator from massachusetts named henry cabot lodge stood on the floor of the senate and said of the united states of presiden president, it man. they forgot about henry clay's compromises and the debates that were held during the army mccarthy days and what of the watergate debates and vietnam debates? the main difference today between the debates in washington and the debates in history are that today, because we have so much media, everybody hears everything instantly. if you would notice, most of the

people who are shouting at each other on television or radio are or the internet have never been elected to anything. it would help if we in the senate knew each other better across party lines. but to suggest that we should be more timid in debating the biggest issues before the american people would ignore the function of the senate and would ignore -- and would ignore our history. the truth is that united states senators debate divisive issues with excessive civility. madam president, i've enjoyed my four years in the republican leadership. i thank my colleagues for that privilege. i now look forward to spending more time working with all senators to achieve results on the issues that i care about the most, the issues that i believe will help -- will determine for our next generation what kind of economy we will have, what our

standard of living will be foreour families and what our national security will be. i thank the president and i yield the floor. the presiding officer: the republican leader. mr. mcconnell: i say to my friend of 40 years even though there are a number of colleagues here on the floor i'm confident we all agree this is not a eulogy that we're about to engage in, but really i think i have a great sense of relief that my friend is going to run again in 2014 and continue to make an extraordinary contribution to the senate and to america. when i first met lamar, he was at the white house, i had just come here as a legislative assistant to a newly elected senator. he had already accomplished a lot, been elected to phi beta kappa at vanderbilt, graduated from new york university law school, clerkd for a well known circuit judge, been involved in

howard baker's first campaign, helped him set up his first office, and that was before i met him. since i've met him as many of you are already aware, it's hard to think of anybody -- hard to think of anybody who's done more things well. he went home in 1970 and ran a successful campaign for i think the first republican governor of tennessee had elected certainly since the civil war. ran for governor himself in a very bad year in 1974, didn't work out too well. but one of the things we know about our colleague lamar is he's pretty persistent so he tried it again in 1978. elected governor, re-elected governor in 1982, spectacular record. and then he did a very unusual thing and i remember knowing about it at the time, i kept up with him since we had met years

before, we were here in washington, he took his entire family and went to australia for six months. put the kids in school there. and actually wrote a book called "six months off" which i read then. now, i don't know how many books you sold, how many books senator alexander sold, but it was a fascinating review of basically just taking a break, going somewhere else, doing something entirely new before getting back on the career treadmill that we of course knew he would get back on. so once the australian experience was over, this extraordinarily accomplished and diverse individual became president of the university of tep. that was back when they used to play football. and then president bush 41 asked him to become secretary of

education. so he was a cabinet member. so by the way i think i left out at his mother's insistence, he became quite proficient at piano he's a fabulous piano player and musician. my mother let me quit, that was the only mistake she made in an otherwise perfect job of raising me but your mother by insisting you continue to take piano gave him that dimension as well. so here we've got a guy who has been governor, president of his university, a member of the cabinet, and if that were not enough, he went into the private sector and started an extraordinarily successful business. which did very well. and so i expect that our colleague from tennessee thought that his public career was

over, but then fred thompson decide decided he wanted to do something else and all of a sudden he was in the united states senate. not just in the senate but then becomes a leader in the senate in a very short period of time. and we've had an opportunity to get to know our colleague, it's hard to think of anybody more intelligent, more accomplished and also more likable than lamar alexander. i must say to my good friend from tennessee, i'm relieved that you're not leaving the senate. this is not a eulogy. but it is an opportunity, i think, for those of house have known and admired you for a long time to just recount your extraordinary accomplishment during a lifetime of public service. and so it's been my honor to be your friend and i'm going to continue to be your friend and i'm glad you'll continue to be our colleague. madam president, i yield the floor. mr. alexander: madam president, i thank the leader and i'm

deeply grateful. i have great confidence in derrick dooley, he's a fine football coach at the university of tennessee, they're playing very good football and i intend to be at my usual seats at the georgia game in two weeks. the presiding officer: the other senator from tennessee. mr. corker: madam president, thank you. i want to say to my colleague i certainly enjoyed your comments today. i'm excited for you. i sit very close to you here in the senate and i'm with you a great deal. i do plan on keeping a cane out of your reach for a few days. but i very much appreciate your service and leadership to the republican party here in the united states senate, and i think that what you've done in that position is to bring out the best in all of us in the best way that you can. i'm excited for you and i look at this as a great day for the

senate, for the united states senate. it's a great day for our country. this is a great day for the -- for the state of tennessee, and i can tell you paced on the conversations that we've had and the way that i know you the united states senate is going to become very quickly a more interesting place to serve. and for all of us who have been concerned about our lack of ability to solve our nation's greatest problems, i look at what you've done today as a step in the direction towards us, being able as a body to more responsibly deal with the pressing issues that you outlined in your talk. i thank you for having the courage to step down from a position that many republican senators would love to have. i thank you for the way that you serve our country.

i thank you for the example that you have been to so many in your public service in our state and our country, and i thank you our country, and i thank you

this is two and a half hours. >> come to order. >> thank you for joining us for this very important hearing.

human rights record in the entire world. the democratic peoples republic of korea is known to be the world's most isolateed country as the citizens are prevented from traveling either internally or internationally without express permission. communications with the outside world are also tightly regulated, and attempts by the dictatorship to filter all information accessible bill the north korean people therefore, the testimony to be provided today by our distinguished panel, and in particular our two defector witnesses, is particularly welcomed and appreciated. mrs. kim young soon and mrs. kim hisuk, who survived the north core afternoon prison camps halve traveled from south

corridor ya. -- korea. i want to thank suzanne scholte, i've chaired hearings, and she has played a critical part in every one of those hearings in helping us to get the witnesses to tell the true unvarnished story of what is actually happening in north korea. our witnesses will be speaking on behalf of an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 prisoners currently held in north korean labor camps. it's our hope their testimony will help to galvanize the international community to take action to secure the freedom of those who are needlessly suffering and dying under truly horrific conditions. those living in the prison camps are not only -- are not the only ones suffering in north korea. as one of our witnesses, suzanne

scholte, will testify in north korea, every single human right is enshined in the universal decoration of human rights is violated with absolute impunity. north korea is a tier three country, buying and selling women and others as a commodity. northerer to -- north korea was listed as a country of concern for violation of religious freedom. we'll hear about the new potential for communication through and with north korean people, and explore possibilities for peaceful change, given upcoming political events in north korea and changes in other countries in the region. we look forward to discussing this potential to improve the

lives of all people living in north core -- north korea. i want to thank you for your being here and thank c-span for taking this information and conveying it to the american people. north korea, because it is so closed, very often evades all scrutiny, so people know about it but don't know very much. your testimony, again, will help to shatter that lackadaisical sense of what americans know and think about north korea. so, thank you again. we'll begin with miss suzanne scholte. and is a leader of several groups focused on protecting human rights in north korea. she was recognized with the walter judd freedom aired and with the seoul peace prize. she has helped rescue hundreds of refugees and facilitated the

travel of defectors to speak in the united states. she has participated in numerous congressional hears on north korea, on topics including political prison camps, trafficking of north korean women, religious persecution and north korean refugees in china. i will note that when we held a hearing on trafficked women, some of what they thought were lucky women, who got out of north korea, into china, miss scholte actually brought to this committee, women who -- one woman who went after her daughter, who made her way into china, only to be sold into slavery, and then she and her daughter who went looking to rescue the trafficked woman, were themselves sold into sexual slavery. we'll then hear from miss kim young soon, committee for the democratization of north korea. she was arrested in 1970 and

sent to a political prison camp with members of her family. her parents and el test son died in the camp and her husband and youngest son later died trying to escape north korea. miss kim eventually escaped and has dedicated her life to exposing the truth about the hideous prison camps in north korea, by sharing her story around the globe. she is an outspoken defector, serving as the vice president of the committee for the democracyization of north korea and other human rights advocacy groups. we this will then hear from miss kim hye sook who is a survivor of a political prison camp. she and her family were impresented by guilt by association because of the grandfather's defection to south korea. she was just 13 years old. miss kim regularly witnessed executions and abuse and endured manual labor, constant hunger,

and death of several family members. once released, she fled to children's but was forced to return to north korea by her employer, where she was arrested again. when she escaped, she returned to china but was sold by human traffickers, like other witnesses we have had. she eventually escaped to south korea, and continues to tell her story around the world. earlier this year she published her memoirs in a book entitled "a concentration camp retold in tears." we'll then hear from mr. greg scarlatoiu. the executive director of the committee for human rights in north korea. he was witnessed the fall of

communism. he as authored articles on the applicability of the eastern european experience to the north korean context, and a broadcast into forthkorea by radio free korea. i now yield for opening comments. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, for calling this very important hearing. and i'd like to certainly express our protection to the -- appreciation to the witnesses here who have agreed to testify. each year, each of your stories help us to better understand the extent and magnitude of the human rights abuses of north korea, and your guidance will help to us target our efforts in alleviating some of these terrible injustices. the human rights vibration north korea are among the worst in the

world. under kim jong-il regime, citizens face killings and detention for basic political expression, seemingly organized market activities, unauthorized travel. north korea seems to vie violate the regime's rules themselves bass they can be penalized for the actions not of themselves but of the actions of their families, which are certainly unjust. according to some observers the conditions are worsening, due to the presentation for lee myung-bak to take over. there was a human rights act in

improving the flow of information to north korea. currently this amounts to $2 million annually for human rights and democracy, 2 million for freedom of information programs, and 20 million to assist north korean refugees. i am interested in hearing from the panelists, if you have expertise in that area, about the views on how proposed cuts to our international affairs budget would impact on our ability to adequately continue to fund these programs that have been successful in getting information to date. although it's not in the realm of your testimony necessarily, i was very disturbed at the behavior of the north korean leadership in november of 2010 when it attacked south koreas a

island of pyongyang with artillery shells, killing several people. this irresponsible behavior of a government really is unwarranted and really needs to have continued watching and scrutinizing as to their behavior. also, their continued adventurism into ballistic missiles and other weapons of war. certainly disturb us. so i certainly look forward to your testimonies and thank you again for your willingness to share them, and i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you very much. would either of my other colleagues -- i'd like to now then yield the floor for such time as you may consume to

ms. scholte. >> just before you start, make a point. we also invited ambassador at large king, who could not be here because he is out of the country. he has -- he wanted to be here. said very clearly he would gladly come and testify at a later date and wanted to provide the subcommittee with a closed briefing as well on recent events, including the human rights situation in north korea. bob king, as my colleagues know so well, was the chief of staff for the foreign affairs committee, and very good choice for ambassador, so, we look forward to hearing from him as well. so, miss scholte. >> first of all i just want to thank congressman smith for your many years of devotion on the north korean human rights. and it's been a honor to work with your staff for the people of the sahara.

another country trying to get freedom through self-determination. i want to give two main points at this hearing today. first of all, north korea continues to be one hover the darkest places on earth, yet we fail to focus on the main issue, which is the human rights issues, because we have instead focused on the nuclear issue and that hays had tragic results. second, despite the tragedy, there's hope because of changes in the country, but if we fail to enact the policies that dress human rights conditions and empower those who can bring about cheng, we'll certainly end up just prolonging this regime. while we witnessed people rising up in north africa and the middle east, we wonder why the north koreans, who, arguably the most persecuted people in the world, not rise up. it is precisely because they are the most persecuted in the world. north koreans are the only people in the world that do not enjoy one single human right that is enshrined in the

universal declaration of human rights, a document ironically that was adopted in 1948, the same year that kim kim il-sung e to power. when nazi death camps were librated, the international commute vowed never again, never again, would we allow these kinds of atrocities to occur. but the political prison camps in north korea have existed longer than the soviet gulag, longer than the chinese prisons and longer than the nazi death camps. your two detector witnesses today are living proof of the horrors of the camp and the length of their experience, one was in prison in the 1970s, and another was in prisoned for 28 years. we have seen millions of north koreans starved to death, despite billions in economic

assistance, and north koreans are not the only ones who surveil from kim jong-il's dictator south. south korean p.o.w.s are still being held and at least 108,308 captives are being held in north korea, including 80,000 abductees from south korea, and hubs of others from 13 countries a recently documented by the committee for humidity rights in north korea. former presidents bill clinton and president bush made human rights a secondary issue in the hope of getting them to give up nuclear amibitions. we see the failure of these efforts has north korea realized it nuclear amibitions and its proliferation activity continues. kim jong-il may be an evil dictator, but he has brilliantly manipulatedded the good intentions of both america and south korea. my second point. there is hope because things are changing in north korea. despite kim kim kim jong-il's bt

efforts to keep north koreans in the dark, up to 60% of north koreans have access to some form of information beyond the ridge anymore. they're learning the source of the misery is not america or south korea as they're brain washed from childhood to believe. the source of their misery is in fact the kim jong-il and his regime. detectors are sending remittances to their families to help demonstrate their pros apart in south korea. north korea has a cell phone system with 500,000 subscribers, dough -- defectors pay brokers in china to contact their families, and they get dvds, flash drives and balloon launches. north koreans, especially the eleads, are keeping up with south korean soap operas, and watching south korean and

western films. it's more important than over to raise the human rights concerns so they know our concerns are for them. for example, it was a brilliant action by the obama administration to include special envoy for north korean human rights, ambassador robert king in the delegation that went to north korea to investigate the food situation. it's the human rights in north korea that are causing the starvation. furthermore, north koreans are no long dependent on kim jong-il to survive, and because of farmer markets and the capitalism is saving them. kim jong-il's unprovoked attacks on south korea, as congressman paine mentioned, have awake ended south koreans to the truth, we must not ignore the human rights of north koreans for the false promise of this regime to end its nuclear

program. governments, nongovernmental organizations, and individuals, first of all, should make human rights central to all negotiations with or about north korea. second, we should only provide food when relief organizations can stay and monitor it to the point of consumption. otherwise, it will most assuredly be diverted to maintain the regime that is causing the starvation in the first place. third, we need to continue to support radio broadcasting, especially programs like radio free asia and voice of america,; fourth, we need to empower the defector organizations using creative methods to get information into north korea. like fires for a free north korea, and the north korean peoples liberation front. five, we must convince the chinese to end their brutal policy of forced repatriation

for north korean refugees which is prolonging the crisis by giving kim jong-il a reason to resist any reforms that would improve the situation in the country so north koreans do not want to risk their lives trying to three. sixth, we should support the 12 north korean defector churches. i've been working to try to connect church here in the united states with these detector churches in south korea. seven, we need to put the elites in the regime on notice they will be held accountable for their crimes against the north korean people. last week a north korean was caught. his mission was to kill the head of the fighters for a free north korea. hock has been doing the balloon launches, sending up information. both park and another man have been argentinaed targeted --

regularly talladega by assays sans. this tells us they're doing the most effective work in 2009, radio korea started broadcasting interviews from inside the country. supporting this flow of information through radio broadcast, especially by north korean defectors, is the most effective way to reach the people because the internet is only available to the elites in the regime. recently the north korean people's liberation front was formed by former military, including officers, special forces, cyberwarfare specialist propaganda specialists. this is significant because there the only time there was opposition against the regime was from the military who studied in the soviet union and came back wanting reform. they operated against the regime not 198 4. because all north korean males

must serve for ten years and the elites are exempt from service, this means the north korean military truly represents the people. we saw the army in romania turn against kim jong-il and a good friend cue chess sky when the people rose up against the dictate tar. right now the elites in power have no incentive to oppose kim jong-il because they're lives are based on the successful transition to lee myung-bak. we have to assure them they will have a stake in the future. because north koreans are citizens under south corear, south korea has an important role to play, and that they should convene a tribunal of respect judges to begin the prosecution of those in the regime responsible for the political prison camps and other atrocities. there are 23,000 eye witnesses now, and we should start naming the names of those who are

committing these crimes. when north korea finally opens up, i believe we will be even more horrified at the atrocities that the kim regimes committed against the north korean people today that are beyond our imagination. we'll face the same questions the world faced when the allies librated the nazi death camps. what did you know and what did you do to help stop the tragic circumstances? thank you, mr. chairman. >> ms. scholte, thank you for your testimony and your leadership. all those year all these years, and for that very incisesive testimony. we'll now her from miss kim young soon. >> i'm kim young soon. i'm a north korean defector and a survivor of a prison camp.

[speaking korean] >> translator: i want to thank the united states congress and related officials of the congress for giving me a chance to speak at this important venue. i want to thank mrs. scholte for her years of friendship and for listening to my story of the political prison camp experience. [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

>> translator: the camp where i was is known around the world. it was created in 1969 in south province in a region moan known for rough and mountainous regions. and they died silent deaths. [speaking korean]

>> translator: i wrote of my time in a book. my friend was hidden mistress of kim jung ill. and i became a victim of this myself and was, therefore, sent to prison. i want to tell the world about the reality of what happened to me and the reality of the prison camp system. [speaking korean]

>> translator: the workers parties establishment of the principle was instituted whereby the citizens were sent to prison camps for total isolation from the general society for the following crimes. the crime of defaming the authority and refrigerator of kim il-sung and kim jong-il. the crime of knowledge about the private life of kim jong-il and releasing information about it to the general public, thus defaming the prestige of the leader. i had no knowledge about these facts when i was sent to prison camp. ...

>> i was a close friend having had gone to the same school and college and one day i heard directly from her that she would be going to the special presidents number five. at bat time a new special residence five new they meant qassam -- if kim sung il [speaking korean]

>> translator: [speaking korean] >> translator: at the time i was taken to a political prison can i have no idea why i was being incarcerated and there was in the summer of 1989 after i was released that i find out the reason why from the state security agent read the security agent said the following to me colin quote she was not the wife nor did she dare him a son. these were all rumors.

if you mention anything about this again you will not be forgiven. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> i would like to talk briefly about my interrogation before i was sent to the political prison camp. on august 1st, 1970i was forced into a car by state security

agents taken to a secret location where i was interrogated for two months by the unit called unit 312 for preliminary investigation in a state security investigation room to read under fear for two months i was told to write my entire life story and to include everything and leave out nothing, so i wrote on and on. in my riding i confessed and wrote about him coming over to my house and telling me she would be going to the special residence number five and also admitted people around me knew this information as well. >> [speaking korean] bixby seven

after the investigations were overall october 1st 1970 my entire family and i, seven people in total were sent to the political prison camp. the person who committed the crime was labeled the conspirators were the ringleader of for the yanna torian of workforce association were labeled monk principal, also and this is how the criminals and prison camp for classified. we book about 3:city in the morning to go to work before:40 a.m. and the labor was from some of until sundown. mills had to be provided by ourselves to self-sufficiency. i saw countless prisoners contract the disease and suffer from diarrhea. >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: after work there would be the fifer ideology meetings for the prisoners. those were unfortunate to be called by the security agents during these ideology meetings sent away in shackles were never seen again. the first manual labor was beyond anyone's imagination and in case of falling short of work goals the whole group was punished. there were so many dead bodies that i saw of their coming enough to fill the field. >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: my three sons, one daughter father and mother died from starvation. there were no coffins so their bodies were ruled in a straw mat and buried. when my son was 9-years-old at the time in the river near the prison camps. my daughter was given away for adoption after hours release so that she could have a better life to lead to this day i do not know her whereabouts what she is alive or dead. my youngest son was publicly

executed by firing squad for trying to is good north korea after his release and attempting to go to south korea in 1993 at the age of 23. >> [speaking korean] >> translator: my husband was sent to another political prison camp in a total and complete controls on july 18th, 1970, and to this day i do not know whether he is dead or alive, so my original family of eight people, currently only to have survived and successfully he escaped from north korea. myself and another son. the rest of my family, six people, have all died. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: my older brother, who was the killer of our family was a criminal in the army during the north korean war serving the third infantry and why on a mission for the commander, she was killed in battle at the age of 25. accordingly, our family received favors from my brothers x and kim il-sung and we lived will allow our family was sent to the political prison camp and as a way of feeling betrayed, i escapes from north korea. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: even after i was released from the political prison camp, i was classified as an antiregime action mary and suffered by the state security apparatus. i.e. state number triet feb first come in 2001 and entered south korea in november of 2003. >> [speaking korean] >> translator: in conclusion i would just like to see that in the political prison camps of north korea, it is a place where the prisoners will eat anything that flies, crawls or grows in the field. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: bye wasted nine years in the prime of my life in that hell hole of a place where even animals will turn away, turned their faces away. i lost all my family members and have lived a life of years, blood and hardship. please save the 23 million people of north korea living a life of misery, not unlike what i have suffered. >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: even though i am now over 70-years-old, i will fight for the freedom of my people, my countrymen until all of my strength is expended to read this is the reason why i have lived so far and also my purpose and on that note i want to deeply thank again the members of this committee for your interest in the human rights situation of north korea, especially the political prison camps. thank you. >> thank you so much. the brutality that you, yourself, suffered in the loss of your family members, including your daughter, who as you said, was adopted obviously without your permission, you have no idea where she is, your husband, you have no idea where he is and the loss of your other family members, just underscores the brutality of kim il-jung and the fact that the west united states and any country that has

any sense of compassion needs to speak out against this terrific abuse and this shouldn't be a second-tier issues of human rights abuses that are commonplace of north korea so we think you for making us further aware of the extreme who barbarity that you have been made to endure and your family. we will now hear from another who has suffered three decades in the gulag of and we look forward to hearing her testimony. >> [speaking korean] >> translator: hello i am an earthquake per specter in political prison camp number

eight team in the province for 28 years. and in 2009 i.e. skate north korea and entered south korea through china, laos and thailand >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: in february of 1975, for reasons that were unknown to me at that time i was tried with my parents to the prison camp. i was 13 years of the time. during my incarceration at camp number 18i lost my grandmother, mother, brother and my husband. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: i found out after i was out of that hell on earth can't 18 why i was sent to prison camp, because my father had dissented during the south korean war but by then i had nowhere to go and complain that the situation. i would like to say that the term of north korea is a living hell for human beings, a place where people have committed so-called crimes percent and incarcerated as a group and forced to work emanuel slave labor -- manual slave labor. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: there are prison camps where people have been found guilty of being against for those resisting the regime are sent intel whereas in places like camp number 18 where i was incarcerated in besides political prisoners, those were guilty of economic crimes are sent along with family members and forced to work in coal mines >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: in camp number 18 where i was in prison the whole prison camp was encircled by a 13-foot high the electrified fence and trying to ease get through this over 3,000 volts of the electrified fencing was unimaginable. when i first entered the prison camp, we were told to memorize ten rules of the prison camp. i still remember it vividly because i remember it from such an early age one of the rules was that the prisoners were not supposed to know the reason for ending up in the prison camp and those caught violating this rule would be a relentlessly executed by a firing squad. >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: the young people like me that in the that in the prison camp at a young age, we were given very rudimentary education, basic current language education and then when we turned 16 or 17 with exception everyone was set to decline and this goes without saying for the adults as well. we had to work 16 to 18 hour work days without rest or holidays and for food in our

family of seven was provided only about 10 pounds of corn per month and this was supplemented by anything that we picked up from the ground, tree bark, grass, and that's what we ate, one meal a day, corn and the mixed grass we had to make for ourselves. >> if you could suspend for one brief moment. we are joined by the chairman of the appropriations subcommittee which justice issues and science, but is also the author of the international religious freedom act of 1998, and as we all know, north korea is a tier three countries and so congressman frank wolf can only say a brief minute. >> thank you. i want to thank you and the committee for having this hearing. i met with the witnesses earlier today. it was one of the most significant and moving testimony reports that i have ever heard,

and i think certainly the state department should do everything they can quite frankly to bring about regime change in north korea. when this government falls, as it will fall the same way the east german government fell with regard to the berlin wall, the west will feel so guilty to know that it said nothing other than the hearings that the members here. they said nothing with regard to what takes place. this administration should do everything and lastly and with this. i think the church in the west to all of religious faith in the west should come together and support these people in every way that they can to see about the fact that hundreds of thousands are in these camps. it's totally unacceptable. as anyone within the voice can hear this, can follow this hearing ought to be advocating it. so i want to again, thank you

and the other members and thank the witnesses for coming by my office to and i'm on my way to a 4 o'clock but i was just moved to come by because what i heard was just so powerful. with that, mr. chairman, i yield back to this too terminable, thank you very much. if you could continue. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

i was plagued with ponder by the time i entered the prison camp until the day that i was released, and by one which was to just eat one bowl of white fleiss for one meal and after i became an adult and after lifetimes of working at coal mine walking to and from work i would look for anything to eat and it became a habit to scrape or pluck anything the was green and make soup whether it was from a tree bark or grass. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: i cannot even begin to describe how many

people suffered and died because of starvation in the prison camp and how many people were killed without reason for not listening to the 40's or not showing enough repentance through a public execution by execution by firing squad through public execution by firing squad their bodies were riddled and i saw countless bodies that ended up like this. the was a time i saw the bodies of people who were killed by firing squad rolled up in straw mats and carried away on carts, and i said to myself even dogs will not die so pitifully. >> [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: in this place where human lives were worth less this is where my brother and husband died also. their deaths were classified as due to accidents, but they were intentional deaths carried out in the atmosphere of the prison camps, where nothing was normal. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

>> translator: and as a result of working declines for over 12 years, i contacted black lung and faced death many times, but in place of my mother who passed away before me i vowed to survive and live on and look out after my siblings, my remaining siblings and that devotion is what allowed me to survive that hell. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: and my siblings are still incarcerated at camp number 18. my brother and sister.

in december of 1974, before our family was sent off to prison camp number 18, my father was pulled away by the state security bureau never to be heard from again. i do not know what happened to him to this day. even at this moment as i speak, there are over 10,000 -- 20,000 people who are in camp 18 without knowing the reason why. people who are dying of abuse and lack of rights at this very moment. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: and this is not just happening in camp number

18, but i would like to say that this is the suffering and sadness that 23 million north korean citizens are going through and suffering and experiencing right now. not only that, but besides the human rights violations going on in north korea is now the cruelty end of misery inflicted on the refugee women have the state north korea into china for the terrible situation of human trafficking happening in different places. after nearly is getting def coming out of of korea and into china, and then becoming victims of human and sexual trafficking, i can say with authority that the tragic situation of the north must be told again and again in the international community. i, myself, was sold for different times in four different cities in china and the indescribable suffering that these women go through and china being sold like commodity still keeps me awake at night. >> [speaking korean]

>> translator: please ended the existence of such a society and make it into a place humans can live as people. please, let the people without any rights in north 311 freedom and happiness. please get rid of the political prison camps and please tell those who do not know about freedom of freedom is about. >> [speaking korean] >> translator: i sincerely hope my earnest these will be delivered to the united states congress come to the united states government and the people of america. i also want to thank the honorable members of this

committee to hear today who have made it possible to speak as well as the defense foundation. thank you. >> without a doubt, your message has been heard, and thank you for sharing what can only be described as the enormous suffering that you experienced being sold into sexual slavery, the last of family members, and so there will be positive consequences in your testimony. we will work hard to promote human rights. i can assure you of that. before going to mr. scholte have the combating of his and that 2011, so i will leave briefly but without objection i would like to point out basically -- key will take the committee now.

>> this is a picture of the camp that she was in. we will now hear from our final witness. good afternoon mr. payne. thank you for inviting me to speak about the human rights situation in north korea and about the apparent increase in the amount of the information getting into the country. it is an honor and a privilege to have the opportunity to discuss these issues with you today. mr. payne, i would like to begin by informing you that i will be presenting a brief summary of the views included in my prepared statement. >> thank you. without objection. >> after the emotional comprehensive testimony and after the hard pricking testimony ms. kim hye-sook, there is barely anything i can have on the human-rights situation of north korea. the human-rights situation in

north korea remains abysmal according to experts and testimony by the recent north korean defectors there is no evidence that the human-rights sedition and north korea has improved as the regime proceeds with steps towards leadership succession. on the contrary, it appears the border crackdown aimed at preventing the north koreans from defecting to china has intensified, and the political prisoner camp population has been on the increase. in may of this year, amnesty international released satellite imagery and new testimony shedding light on the horrific conditions of north korea's political prisoner camps. according to the organization, the prisoner population detained at such camps is up to 200,000, and it compares in the latest satellite photographs of satellite imagery from 2001 indicates a considerable increase in the scale of the camps. moving on to the flow of

information and getting into north korea, although officially all personal radios must have a fixed dial and be registered with state security offices, programming by stations including voice of america, radio free asia and broadcasters based in south korea may have a listenership of around 40% in north korea. the number of radio's smuggled from china has been on the increase. the north korean authorities continue to attempt to jam the foreign broadcasting and it's a serious limitation in their efforts as jamming is energy intensive and north korea is experiencing in chemnick energies shortages. in the recent years, we have found out that there has been a significant increase in the amount of information entering north korea. this development is the result of the marketization that has taken place in that country.

such is by no means and intended top-down reform program, but rather the function of state failure. small and informal markets provide ordinary people a coping mechanism that enables them to survive. during the marketization of north korea, supply chains have developed from china to north korea's defense capital city of pyongyang and in pt plater, ct rahman tvd and some drivers have been entering north korea. statistical data, including the the 2010 survey of north korean refugees and travelers by the broadcasting board of governors indicates 27% of respondents have listened to foreign radio. 48% have come in contact with foreign dvds and other material while 27% have watched

foreign tv. information is also being passed from one member to the next along such supply chains. it appears that the korean wheat consisted of south korea soap opera and musical, exceptionally popular asia and beyond has also reached north korea. according to japan's one member of a group of nine north koreans who recently sailed for five days before being picked up off the west coast of japan one a week ago on september 13th this gentleman a squid fishermen said that he was inspired to leave his home by south korean selwa press. in january, 2008, the egyptian companies telecom holding was awarded a license to establish a 3g mobile network in north korea when it launched in december,

2008, the audio link had 5,300 subscribers. in its half year earnings report for january, june, 2011 published on august 10th they stated the number of subscribers in north korea had reached 660,000. separate from the expansion of the network, citizens of north korea have also been using a chinese cellphone smuggled across the border into north korea. we have indication that the intent to launch 3g internet service by the apple ipad in pyongyang this fall by a special card. nevertheless, internet access is likely to continue to be restricted to foreign residents and those close to the regime. there are also those north koreans that possess computers not connected to the web and their estimated to represent

about 3% of the entire population. based on the data collected with interviews in the north korean defectors and proven track record of success in winning the tautological confrontation during the cold war, radio broadcasting will continue to be one of the few media available to grant the people north korea access to information from the outside world. computers not connected to the internet, some drives from the disease from a cd rom's and m p3 players have become increasingly available although access to such devices is still relatively limited. efforts to increase the flow of the information into north korea should take into account the increasing availability of such vehicles. i wish to thank the subcommittee and the staff for the opportunity to testify before you today. and i will now be pleased to try to answer any questions that he might have. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. let me once again thank each of

the witnesses. your testimony is certainly very compelling. we of course have heard and we try to keep up with the situation of north korea, but it certainly brings it home whenever we have a hearing and to hear especially from individuals who have lived through the horror of this regime, and of course we appreciate our experts from the defense foundation and the committee for human rights in north korea. perhaps to either one of you who are working with the organizations that deal with that, mr. scarlatoiu, i have that closely

>> the special envoy for north korean human rights ambassador robert kaine has said that the united states government would engage in and in that dialogue on human rights issues at the six-party talks. the six-party talks are at an impasse and in the absence of the six-party talks, first of all what do each of you feel that the six-party talks have achieved in the past and whether there were any real gains for word first of all and second, if indeed you feel that it is ann password there is really not a real effort on the part of north korea would with the obama administration consider employee for the human rights dialogue

with pyongyang? so whether the talks past and the have been going on a bit through the several administrations come and if their scrapped in absence of that could there be anything else or should we continue, if you would like to comment. >> well, first of all, i think that regarding the six-party talks, this is an effort by the bush administration to rein in the nuclear ambitions, and they made the decision that they would just focus on the nuclear issue and not entered as any of these concerns to kick the human rights concerns down the road. we can tell the history that north koreans are brilliant at manipulating the talks and using the talks to gain aid and

support and make promises they never intend to keep. they did the same thing to bill clinton during the framework and i think before president clinton could be excused from that because he was dealing with a new dictator when he was president, but the bush administration i think should have known better. they should have known the history of how this regime is and what you see during this talk the result has been north korea has developed nuclear weapons, it's a reactive and the weapons and the exact purpose was never realized, but at the same time, millions of north koreans have died, and so i think that talking with says regime is useless. the only use these talks to extract concessions and support and legitimize the regime. i think instead we need to take

a new approach. i think that president obama is in a unique position to do that. i see that we should make human-rights the number one policy of our government. i think that we should reach out to the north korean people and i think president obama should be talking about the fact that i think we should say we want to give north korea as much aid as the need so that people are not starving, but we want to be able to see that it is consumed. i think that we should be talking about the fact that we want to help the people. we want to improve conditions and we would like to see the international red cross people to go to prison camps. number triet denies the have camps refine it, let's let the independent agency like the international red cross go to these camps. and i think that we need to be focusing on the human rights issues and policies that at the same time, do everything we can to support the kind of things

the defectors themselves are doing in the radiobroadcasting because the impact the free north korean radio has that has been on the internet broadcast in 2004 and then went on the shortwave in 2006, the impact that it had was amazing. it set the pace for all the broadcasters because it was the defectors themselves and as you know they were raised to believe that south korea, the united states cost the korean war. they are brainwashed with stuff we would think is completely ridiculous, but they believe that. so when the north koreans themselves are talking in broadcasting these views and opinions and to north korea, the north korean can't can't dismiss them. so it's a tremendous impact and we have to do everything we can to reach out with that message to the north korean people and use the defectors especially.

>> the reason why nothing has been happening on the six-party talks for a while now is that north korea has refused to act as a responsible member of the international community. north korea has continued to proceed with the nuclear developments. north korea engaged in very serious provocations' last year in march it launched a torpedo attack on the south korean that killed the sailors in that attack as it has already been been mentioned as you mentioned on november 23rd, north korea showed of the south korean territory the island and this attack resulted in the military and civilian casualties. we have already heard about assassins sent to kill one of the very active north korean defectors and south korea a few weeks back. the deep concerns about and the alleged assassination plot

targeting the defense minister of south korea cut and before the most high-profile north korean defector castaway last year, late last year, but only a few months before that we've heard about the plot that was stored on him for assassination. that being said, north korea has also continued to press its own people. north korea has continued to refuse to abide by the international obligations they are supposed to abide by given its the party to the international covenant on civil to the kosovo and political life and economic, social and cultural life in the convention against all forms of discrimination against women, the conventional the rights of the child, and as a u.n. member stated it's supposed to be bound by the u.n. declaration of human rights. as to whether the human rights should be on the agenda, it is a

firm belief of the committee for human rights in north korea that human-rights, the improvement of the human rights of korea should be a top of our priorities and personally, as i hope that one day we will see the complete irreversible and very dismantlement of mr. rhea's nuclear program. i also hope that we will see the complete irreversible and verifiable dismantlement of the political prisoner camps as well >> thank you very much. what me ask you, ms. kim hye-sook, there is -- and i know that your experiences in north korea was years ago and you have a very compelling testimony. i'm just curious to know in your days as a young person and as a child, as a teenager growing up,

what type of society, what type of programs does the government impose on children it's supposed to be a time of life when people are happy, they are growing, they are learning. to your best recollection, if you can explain what is life like for a young child and a young teenager and young adult and growing up in north korea? today if you can sort of transpose your experiences.

>> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: in answer to the question the liberation from

japan of 1945 and until the 70's, north korea is actually a little bit better, was better than south korea in terms of the economic situation, and as for myself, when i was young i went to school and i attended at the university of fine arts and i majored in her dance and i learned under the teachings of a very well-known dancer and before i went to the prison camp i could say with assurance i was happy, but my happiness quotient to speak was very high in terms of living in the north korean society. >> thank you -- [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: before i was sent to the can buy a life where i had no worries about food or eating. i went to school, i live a normal life but because i was sent to the prison camp at such an early age that's all i can share in terms of my experience in relation to your question. >> thank you. >> another question that i'm just curious about as we know in world war ii there was the question of the brothels that were created in korea, and i wonder whether it was in the north of korea or was that primarily in korea itself if

anyone recalls as you may know we are still working on the a policy of the government of japan. there's been some apologies but this has been an initial five house played to to the to -- plea to the world since that time and i wonder whether it was prevalent throughout korea. >> [speaking korean] >> translator: my answer to you, sir, is before the liberation of 1945, even in the north of the peninsula there

were instances are places where these women were her based in north korea and i believe that even if this issue were to be addressed with the japanese government, we would not be getting a satisfactory answer in regarding your question, sir. >> i will yield to the gentle lady from california. >> thank you very much mr. chair. i would like to follow on a question that mr. payne said about your childhood until you went into the camp, and you said that until the 70's and i realize that is when you went into the camps, but did things drastically change in north korea? and when?

>> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

>> to answer the question colin the propaganda was set in place between the liberation, years of liberation and until the korean war those years were known as the best years in terms of the efforts and prosperity of north korea, and after the korean war there were various economic plans instituted to try to help the economy and help people who live better. but in 1987, in the late 80's after the soviet union collapsed and after the help from that part of the region that's what brought on the change in terms of the economics and the downtrend the conditions for the

people in north korea. >> first of all, let me also just thank you sharing your testimony. i think it's very important that people in this country here learn what is going on in north korea because i don't think much is known here about what is happening there. and the pan and the suffering that you described, the life of your -- loss of your family members, not knowing where your children or your husband are, i think it is in a measurable amount of pain, and i appreciate you taking the time and sharing it with us. i think it is especially important because the need for foreign aid and for assistance has said, i don't want to pronounced your name, ms. kim hye-sook, when you talked about the need for there to the foreign assistance and food and

all in times we are talking about cutting back so i think the message is critically important. but you were saying that you thought that we shouldn't have discussions, negotiations with north korea, but at the same time we should do what we can to, you know, deliver food and other things the population would need. by understand the communication part, but how would we get aid to people? >> if you could answer first that would be great ms. soon and ms. sook.

[inaudible conversations] >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> i would like to say that the world as supporting north korea because they hear stories of people starving and suffering but as a defector, i believe the

regime of north korea should be completely isolated and that's the only way to change the regime and unless number three at optus the market economy and changes drastically with the country is run, no change will come and as a defector, i would like to say that we are helping the regime to continue to be isolated and stop the aid that has been given to the regime. >> i agree except i was just making the point that if we are going -- i agree in a substantial amount of assistance but only if we can stay to the point of consumption because if

we send any amount of assistance to north korea it will be diverted. when you talk to defectors than ever saw food aid and when you talk to defectors that serve another three they will tell you the world food program rolls into town, delivers rice to these families right after they leave the army comes back and takes it back. as was testified years ago about how she had gone to an orphanage and they handed out cookies and the kids just sat there with the cookies waiting for somebody to come back and take it away so of the diversion has been absolute, and because of that i think that is the kind of message the we can send that would be a very powerful message for the positive propaganda, which is that we are very much concerned about the starvation and political prisoner camps and the situation in north korea. we want to help you. we hear about these stories. we want to help you but we want to be sure that we are actually

helping the people and we're only going to give that aid if we know that we can stay there. even from the very beginning with the famine first started, north korea put six stipulations on the food. they actually didn't want -- i never heard of this before, that -- i never heard about this before. in a challenging on this i don't think in any situation where there was a country where there was starvation or the country that was the intended recipient of the demanded that the aid delivers couldn't speak their language. i don't think that's ever happened in any place but north korea because usually to go to a country to deliver aid you are desperate for somebody that speaks the language but that speaks volumes from the very beginning of their intention to divert eight so because of the difficulty of preventing that's why we should only provide aid if we can be there at the point of the consumption. i can tell you all kinds of stories that if we were to go into the orphanages oliver we

have to make sure those babies get that formula because actions against hunter did that and it ended up in pyongyang in the markets and of those babies were given watered-down goat's milk when they showed up late to the current leader to find out the tons of baby formula they delivered, that is just one example, but then in the second point i was making is that we should be looking at creative ways to get information and also through the north koreans that have defected that are sending in remittances to the country for helping to support their families. >> thank you very much. >> i will hold any other questions i have until later time. mr. trash. >> -- mr. chairman. >> thank you in ranking member pain for leading the committee. i had to leave because a bill of mine on the autism was on the

floor and did it pass thankfully. let me ask a question if i could with regards to a few years back in 2002i chaired a hearing on the north korean human rights, one of several and we had a doctor, former medical doctor inside of north korea who actually was given a huge award by the dictatorship for his medical expertise and the fact that he helped cure a lot of people but he also then told the truth about the human rights situation, and he said that they are using food as a weapon, talking about a dictatorship for and against their own people they are treating the genocide, and i think we have to care as an international community we have to intervene. would you say that was in 2002 that the international community i heard in the opening comments that you had criticism that bush didn't focus on human rights

during -- did pass the north korean human rights act and was one of the co-sponsors of that and it's an excellent bill and all of us strongly support it. has that legislation lived up to its promise, or reemphasizing sufficiently in our dialogue or whatever it is of a dialogue with the north koreans? >> guice been very disappointed after all the hard work that we did on the human-rights act. i've been disappointed right from the very start. the bush administration said we welcome these tools or helping on this issue but then they never really used the tools. one thing it did help i know the radiobroadcasting is expanding support which i believe was a result of that legislation and was a huge thing that happened

that some important and also helping the independent broadcasters. the other thing too is the special envoy position. i think it's very significant that president obama has made it very clear the special envoy robert king will be a part of the discussions on north korea. that was in the case during the bush administration. it was cut out so i think that president obama is taking greater advantage of that legislation to try to do more with the north koreans act right by the very nature that he's elevated the ambassador king's position. on the comment you made about north korea using food as a weapon that is absolutely true. it uses food as a weapon against its own people and they have an apartheid side of system in north korea where people are classified based on the regime on the eletes and then you have what they consider the way

during class which is a class that isn't considered to be to the regime and then you've got the hostile class and if you are in that elite you may get white rice but if you are down on that system you may never see any your whole life you may get corn meal so the thing that has happened with the food is because of the breakdown in the public distribution system which is how the regime will reward people for the apartheid system based on loyalty that system is broken down and that is why the markets are so significant that you have over 200 markets and these are just the ones we know by satellite, the ones we know by satellite. so there's probably many more are markets but some people are surviving they are chilling and the the to -- trading and selling and buying them on these markets. >> either or both can just comment.

on the use of torture and the gulags we have had testimony before this committee in the past that christians and people of faith are even more selective out for repression especially in the women who are pregnant or often forcibly aborted in an absolutely crude -- they get beaten and around the abdomen and then miss carey so it is a horrible thing. we even have a testimony for its being put on how the women and soldiers were gulag security guards jumping on the boards on the abdomen of the pregnant women. did you experience torture -- you mentioned how both of you saw the littered bodies everywhere, but people were treated like animals. you said that a society where the whole country is a prison, society where does that the

escape for cost and the prison and those that had the state become lost in the international community to the society where trust the and virginity which is more precious than life is sold teeth cheaper than the cheapest of things of course talking about the human trafficking. if you could speak to the use of torture and these terrible and despicable atrocities being committed by the dictatorship. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> in answer to your question, during the two months of interrogation i was stuck in a room with no calendar, no clocks, a black hole for two months and for somebody to come out of that and not go crazy is america and that's what i experienced and in terms of dealing with my experience there i saw violence. i was injured with my shoulder during work and my fingers were injured during work and in terms of torture that's what i

experienced during my prison experience at the prison camp. >> thank you. >> [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> regarding my experience in the qu >> regarding my experience in the question, in some of the drawings i displayed what i went through, but at the prison camp number 18 there was no paved road, and there were many times when the prison guards would force prisoners would stop the prisoners walking back and forth within the camp they would stop these prisoners forced them to open their mouths and these prisoners from the prison guards

would stick to -- spit into the open mouth as prisoners and told them if you swallow it he will not be beaten but if you throw up or resist you will be beaten. she experienced that torture during her 20 years there. and in 2005, in 2005 after she was released from the campus she went into china and during the detention period when she was going through that, she saw an instance where the women who were also tortured were forced to repeat sitting and standing up so that hiding the uterus would fall out and the other contraband the prisoners were trying to find, so that is about the extent of the torture she

witnessed from her time in north korea. >> mr. scarlatoiu, if they are intensifying as they take steps towards leadership succession, could you speak further on that issue and perhaps some of the issues that you have that suggest that? >> mr. chairman, i should tell you that our organize asia and has published one quite well known report on the political prisoner camps in north korea called hidden gulags that happened in 2003 and i am in the process of putting together a second edition. towards that goal we have collected testimony by at least about 60 former inmates of political prisoner camps. the difference between now and then is that we have testimony from some of the guards. we have better satellite imagery. based on such testimony, we seem

to see intensified political repression. we seem to see a crackdown along the border with china, and all indications are that the new nuclear power been created around the service on the gulf kim jong il is not proposed any type of reform. we have all indications in putting violent provocations against south korea while in military provocations discussion of assassins, intensified human rights violations in north korea. we have all the evidence that we are dealing with very hard liners. it's been a glut may ask a question -- i read a book some years back about of the self-reliance, religion and the cult of personality, the deification of kim jong il and

kim il-sung before hand, and it was a very detailed heavily footnoted booklets how they brainwashed the people of north korea, and i'm wondering if all of you might speak to this and especially from the two kims, how did the overcome the brainwashing effort? do people in north korea really regard kim jong il as that? there was a national geographic peace recently and i watched with great interest, i watched it more than once, and a doctor went to north korea to do some surgery on the eye and he was having phenomenal success teaching other doctors and practitioners and north korea to do so, but i was astonished how the people who have been helped, especially at a group meeting,

were looking at a picture of kim jong il and sinking him and getting on their knees and for shipping him and the intensity of it was quite unnerving frankly. ..

[speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: i can answer the question by saying in north to reaffirm basically child birth, from kindergarten on, little children are brainwashed into believing that kid jong il and kim il-sung are capable of words to praise, not enough for us to praise can il-sung and kim jong il that there is no words

to think otherwise in north korea. [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: and that the people in north korea -- the situation where their minds have been replaced with the brainwashed mind and there is no freedom to travel to a country where you need special color-coded passes to travel to a particular paste into niche

activism site for hansard feet are part of the people so they cannot travel or be free of that society. [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: two into your question, from my experience as soon as you are born in north korea, you -- the phrases is thank you, great leader. one might say about that to give you is in thousand nine, there is a woman with a young daughter, a young child who accompanied me and the chinese family that was helping us this starving child food. the first words out of the chance not when she received the food with thank you, cheerleader, kim jong il. this goes to the extent of the brainwashing from the day you're born until. thank you cheerleader, kim jong il. those words are just a brain washing into people's minds.

>> just a few final questions -- did you want to -- >> that's one of the things about this whole idea. there is a woman i met who has been a defect dirt and she taught philosophy come as i casually asked her, who is your favorite philosopher? and she is like i only taught kim il-sung in marxism for the first years of my ear and then for the last, kim jong il. i said when you let to south korea, did you pursue philosophy? she said no, i was afraid the brain was too twisted to understand. the fact that she admitted that proved that it was sent. but her brain had opened up. she was actually studying north korean studies to take your way to help help her country. i wanted to say one of the programs that treat north korea

is trying to do is we are reaching out to christian churches to help us, but they want to do a program explaining the concept of what we think of religious faith of self-sacrifice and helping others versus what they are brainwashed to believe to try to help north koreans open their mind to understanding the concepts of what we value in the western world, which is serving others and helping others is the complete opposite of everything they are taught. they are the servants of the regime and that's one thing important because the defect or sell how to articulate those kinds of things. there is an organization called the coalition for north korea appeared when an solitaire is a coalition north korean women, most of whom were the answer trafficking. when they first came to south korea, the whole concept of human rights was completely alien to them. you believe that the socialist societies try to say women are equal appeared in north korea, women are treated horribly.

so this is something they are doing to restore the assignments and teach them the value they are assuming teams cannot tell you they are as women. >> mr. chairman, i think pirtle and birth are dictators such as the personality depends by far and large i'm denying the knowledge of alternative economic, social and political systems. you have mentioned that christians are subject to harsh punishment. we have also come across those forcibly pictured it from china have come in contact with christian missionaries for south korea's space particularly harsh punishment amounting to public executions. most likely come of the main reason beyond that is that christianity and south korea present alternative systems. one great advantage of eastern europeans have primarily through

public rod casting they are receiving from the outside world was that it was clear to them that the capitalist liberal democracy is a west were clearly the opportunity now to focus on improving the information to persuade not only the overwhelming majority were so oppressed, but also why not the elites of north korea, that there is life after the regime and alternatives are available. >> let me just make a note here to access the administration in hearings and other meetings to put china on human trafficking, not only because of the horrific rise in sex trafficking in republican china, but also because they north korean women thinks she has gotten to relative safety by crossing the

border, she invariably sold into human trafficking a chinese government doesn't let the single singer to mitigate pain and crack down on the traffickers who got the border looking for women pleading for that country. they also represent a signatory to the refugee convention because they send back men and women who are most likely to be incarcerated in the gulags if not executed for leaving without permission. so china bears a huge responsibility for its enabling and complicity in the crimes of pyongyang. let me also ask a final question. how would you rate the international community's response including the u.s., europe and especially the united states. there's a high commission of human rights. there's a whole wrapper char

system, but there's also the human rights council, which was supposed to speak truth to power regardless of the consequences and whole countries to account. now, i frequently, when it was the commission and not the council, which asked the council are commissioned to raise human rights in north korea and frankly there've been revolutions in the past, but it has struck me, flake pro forma resolutions. they have low expectations, no sense of shock or dismay over what kim jong il has been doing and his fellow dictators in pyongyang, but there is a sense that it's an obligatory chastisement and no one expects anything to change because of those low expectations, that country in no way is held to account. so is the international community so incredibly passive when it comes to what is

equivalent to what the did in its gulags to its own people into jewish and other scum which is going on current day in north korea. if you can speak to that and find a way, i was in south korea recently, spoke to a number of lawmakers and others in seoul. i was surprised maybe i'm wrong and my impression, to glean from that experience that many people in south korea don't have the kind of understanding that the two camps here have brought to this committee. and that is what goes on in the gulags and the huge repression that is removed to tune by the dictatorship. the young people kind of trivialize in south korea. is that true? or is that a false impression i picked up on that trip? they know it's there, but it is not as bad and they just don't seem to take it at face value

for the huge atrocity that it is. for any of you who would like to speak to that. >> chairman smith regarding your first question, at the committee for human rights in north korea, we are very familiar with the work and the reporting done by the u.n. special rapporteur's on north korea. both of the current repertory, professor dauber time and the previous from thailand are very dedicated scholars in very good human beings who have worked very hard to put together. >> testified before a committee to pass. >> said they done extraordinary work to shed light on the atrocities and violations happening in north korea. i think that organizations such as ours have a duty to inform the international community to conduct research to publish on

the human rights violations happening in north korea and to engage in robust public information campaigns to inform the public here in the united states and beyond and also to inform north koreans have the right but they have that are being violated with such. >> i was going to say that you mentioned china. and i would say there is a correlation between the ability of the u.n. to do anything in china stating those efforts. what you mentioned about the refugees, does says the most vulnerable of human rights crisis going on today. it can be solved overnight at china simply followed the treaties that is signed. the u.n. has an office in beijing. these refugees have a place to

go. the only refugees they know and the world that makes north korea unique that has a place to go because they are citizens of the south korean constitution and the access we will take some year and people are willing to resettle them. so there is no reason for china to continue this. brutal policy reputation has caused 80% of north korean women to be traffic in this basically modern-day slave markets. i believe you have a hearing tomorrow. one of the pressures on this is the fact that china has a shortage of women because they have been murdering unborn baby girls all these years. they've had this one child policy and that afflicted the shortage of women, so that's why you have north korean women that are vulnerable and been sold. china is the reason we can't get more action at the united nations because they actually block when everyone realized that north korea had caused the death of the south korean

sailors, china was the one that was depressing that action on that. as long as you have tremendous influence in the u.n. but has evolved in perpetrating these kinds are happening in north america come you're not going to get any action by the united nations. i know you wanted to say something, too. [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

>> translator: i would like to have that north korea, currently the kim jong il regime committed by the regime is the worst in the world in. to totally isolate and the best way to go about prosecuting crimes against humanity to report into the international criminal court. it would do a good job of leading an international movement to make this -- to bring about this work of bringing kim jong il to the criminal court. [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] >> translator: i want to say as long as kim jong il exists, the people suffering will continue. at that to say once again that our earnest desires of the united states to take a lead in helping the world focus on the important issue of human rights issue and isolating that regime to not provide aid or help that would only go towards keeping the regime alive. [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

[speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: i also would like to point out as i am sitting here before a media and for the congressman here that

regarding food aid, i would like to plant a younger sister and brother who are still in the prison camp certainly all the food aid that has been given is not going to dad has not been sent to them with the people who need it the most common is starving and prison would need the food aid for most, but it is only going to be a leap, to the military and security apparatus and feeding them and empowering them, only giving them more life, more power to continue the abuse that i drew in maturing as you can see on display here. >> also about the attitude inside korea, right? you asked also about the attitude in south korea? >> especially the young people. >> i definitely think they might want to have a comment about it. >> it's almost a sense of disbelief to the crew tee of kim jong il.

this is so important as the media who has downplayed it -- >> that's a huge issue. that's so important because you would think the country that should care the most has been the slowest to respond. the reason for that is during the years of the kim government and the roh government, they actually banned information to be reported about north korea because they have the sunshine policy, basically an engagement policy. and the award-winning documentary, soul train, which is popular today that was produced by americans that the refugee crisis in china. north koreans escaping in the whole situation was banned from being shown in south korea by the government. so there was a suppression of the horrors that were going on. they can tell you stories -- he wanted to speak before the south korean assembly, but wasn't able to do it. and what has happened now -- she

was going to speak before this. they can share that with you, but what happened was what the provocations that it happened against south korea, by north korea, unprovoked attacks at 10 a weekend and i'm very pleased to see a lot of young people trying to this issue. have gone to a conference in 2000 to come an international conference in seoul, which people like this where people will speak in their students protesting against the conference. but that has changed a lot. young people are really getting john to the issue. it's been two very difficult to move the hearts and soul of korean lawmakers. they still have not passed the korean act, which has been done by japan and the united states and that has been the real source of contention. >> it brings to mind after world

war ii, eisenhower said do not burn down the concentration camps because there were some germans who were disbelief that he was real and it seems to me when it's an actual policy of the government to suppress the truth, there is something inherently wrong with that because it creates a distortion, a gross caricature of what pyongyang is actually doing. i hope this hearing and it will be followed by additional hearings will further the information. i was telling -- and conversations, complete information about what i had read and learn from hearings and from and from terrorists who hide in my friends who were south korean, with whom i was meeting was met with disbelief, as if somehow i was exaggerating for engaging in some kind of hyperbole when the truth on the ground, as you have so ably witness to is even worse than what we can imagine in terms of the cruelty and mistreatment.

>> by something else i need to share with you. in october i was at a balloon launch and i was with ken sung min, north korea signed and we were getting ready to do a balloon lunch. there is a former north korean who served in the military and he was so upset because they were south koreans trying to stop the balloon lines and saying they were pro-kim il-sung and almost had tears in his eyes. he said i came from that country. how can they deny the horrible things i've seen? i remember him saying we don't want to get in a confrontation. i said something like i know how you feel. i thought, i don't know how he feels, that he could have gone through these horrible things and then have people be denying it and trying to stop them from doing something to reach out to people suffering.

>> translator: [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: of ms. kim would like to read what she said conscious about the people in south korea, the young people to the politicians not fully knowing or understanding or

appreciation of situation north korea, she wholeheartedly concurs with that statement. because of the strong presence of the last days and the pro-north korean elements in society, mrs. kim believes the peninsula is not ready for unification. south korea is not ready to be unified and she would again like to ask for the united states to take the lead in increasing knowledge and awareness about the situation in north korea and hope that other nations to be able to do this. [speaking korean] [speaking korean] [speaking korean]

>> translator: and there are 23,000 north and korea and also a tf bat north korean set is better all over the world. if there's any sort of encouragement, financial help given to us, we'll stop at nothing and dedicate our very lives to bring about change and the regime in the korea. you can trust me when i say that. >> well, miss dane, i think you think about the left is truly enabling by either suppressing for denying that these atrocities are occurring, that makes you complicit in these crimes against humanity. i would hope that clear thinking people come in newspapers and other media in south korea were just tell the truth about what is going on in north korea because the truth is liberating. i would also add my endorsement to what you said about kim jong

il and others being held to account for genocide at the international criminal court. they have committed barbaric crimes. and while there are some u.n. individuals who have spoken out, there has been no holding to account in any meaningful way. so i asked colin endorsement he said. >> thank you very much. i just had a quick question and might make a quick comment. with the prospect of the anticipation that kim jong il believes would take over a horrible prospect, what do you see the consequences and am like that happening?

[inaudible conversations] [speaking korean] [speaking korean] >> translator: mrs. kim believes that kim jong il will never be the true leader, but if he were to become the next leader, mrs. kim believes that the areas a chance that he might open up and reform the country from her point of view in her opinion. >> thank you very much. i just want to comment and i think that an separated country like we see in korea, the fact that many instances the truths

are cast from the people in the south, the total truth and it's difficult to know whose responsibility, the government, the press, and is it deliberate? one thing that usually happens in divided countries as beside eastern and western europe although you can't compare to eastern europe totally certainly not to north korea, but there is a strong move toward reunification as just a natural nationalistic move to reunite countries that were once united. and so, i could possibly understand why some of these younger people would be striving for unification, trying to of course have a change -- a regime change in the north. so i think it's just kind of

normal nationalism, especially a country that may have felt that it has been, you know, abused or exploited by world wars and things of that nature. the other thing i remember clearly as i travel to eastern europe in the late 60s and i went to poland and germany and russia with eastern europeans and saw especially in poland, photos and news reels of the films taken inside of warsaw, with a warsaw at uprisings. and these were young adults my age at the time who could not believe how brutal their parents were when they were leaving the

not see regime. they were talking in their own language, but i could kind of understand what the internal discussion was going on about in almost disbelief. so i think that as we move forward, we'll have to work with educating people to overcome some of these natural things. i also think that we should try to become even more active in the human rights council. there have been some progress made because of before the u.s. joined the council, when it was the committee before and then the council, issues like what is happening in syria, the brutality of bashir on his people, do some of the other issues would never ever be raised. and so i think sense because the

u.s. has raised the issue scum and they to deal with them and that's why it's important for us to be in the room said that there could be answers when our allies are criticized for resolutions continually come criticizing them. we cannot now say, wait a minute, let me give you the other point of view. i do hope those agencies will also be strengthened as they move and then of course i guess not being part of the bronze statues, and makes us a little less significant in the icc, where we have difficulty pushing for indictments for war criminals who should be indicted and the cases should be raised. finally, i'd like to say that really commending the south korean government, several years ago i visited one of my hospitals they are that the south korean government does,

probably the best hospital in sub-saharan africa just about. and they did it because they were appreciative of the ethiopian soldiers to fight in the korean war. and actually, most stunning is that for those veterans who were still alive who serve, they have been paying pensions to these ethiopian soldiers ever since the end -- i don't know exactly if it started right at the end of the war, but for decades and those that are still alive received a month away regular stipend from the government of korea. so i think if some of the goodwill in southern korea could kind of work its way out to the north, that would be a positive

statement. >> thank you, chair for calling this important meeting. >> just to conclude, i'd like to ask unanimous consent that the testimony of kim sung min, director of free north korea be made part of the record. >> about objections to what are. >> await us to revise the extended remarks and make one comment with a related issue. and i to comment on receipt comports of the part tensioners from south korea to china. as is well known, they are persecuted in china and not forcibly return them to china what they were certainly

face persecution. south korea should find appropriate means within the korean legal system in international conventions on torture and refugees that is ratified 2% these pyongyang practitioners to remain in south korea. i would note on thursday, the subcommittee will hear testimony. it will be the 30th hearing on human rights abuses in china. it is entitled china's one child policy, the government's massive crime against women and unborn babies. i mention this especially in light is essential to you and others. this and ask you between woodchopper policy, the dearth of females in the prc. estimates range from an excess of 100 million missing girls in china so that when north korean women make their way over the border, the traffickers are waiting to sell them into modern-day slavery and sex trafficking and china has not only not lifted a finger to stop it, they have enabled it and it is attributable in part, maybe

large part to the wind policy. we would hear from to the dems have forced abortion who will tell their stories. chai ling, the great tiananmen square activist who found all gros allowed, but, richard littlejohn and valerie johnson will speak about the military implications. i do want to think this very, very affect his group of witnesses for shedding light on the egregious human rights abuses of kim jong il and thank you for bearing witness to the truth. when it's too much what we've done. because her subcommittee, congress, executive branch and the free world. and again, i want to thank all of our witnesses, especially our two women who have made their way to the u.s. has come a long distance, suffered, lost loved ones for speaking truth to a very totalitarian power. i would like to get the last

word if any of our witnesses would like to say anything and conclusion. >> i was just going to announce that we are having, and a on thursday, september 22nd, a protest. we are calling on people wherever you're in the world to go to the chinese embassy admitted to poster rupee chichi in and we have 25 cities in 13 countries participating. >> mr. chairman, i would like to tell you in addition to one report that i've mentioned that we are working on the prisoner camps in north korea, also a report on the circulation of information inside north korea and we will be happy to share reports as soon as they are published for the subcommittee. >> will disseminate widely among the congress. thank you. >> thank you. the hearing is adjourned and thank you very much. [inaudible conversations]

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