could those great results of the civil war have been achieved by other means? in 1888 the great african-american leader tred rick douglas -- frederick douglass gave a speech stating that the emancipation proclamation was a fraud. now, maybe this was an overstatement 25 years after the emancipation problem proclamatit as he looked around and saw the status of african-americans lahrly in the south -- particularly in the south picking the same cotton they had picked under slavery and living similar lives as they had lived under slavery, he wondered what was gained by the emancipation proclamation and what was gained by that bloody war. we are commemorating the 150th anniversary of the civil war this year and for the next four years. it's important that we honor those who gave their lives for

their respective causes. but it would have been a greater tribute to our nation had they lived. >> for more information on booktv's 2011 cities tour, visit c-span.org shall be local content. >> and now on booktv richard brookhiser recounts the life of the fourth american president, james madison. mr. brookhiser examines madison's influence in the framing of the u.s. constitution, collaboration on the federalist papers, development of the republican party and his command of troops during the war of 1812. it's a little less than an hour. >> good afternoon, everyone. i'm dug swanson, i'm visit services manager here at the national archives experience. i'd like to welcome you all and our good friends at c-span to this special constitution day

program. um, let's see. today the national archives is celebrating the 224th birthday of the united states constitution with an author talk on james madison who was the father of the constitution. we are honored today to have as our special guest speaker the preeminent historian and senior editor for national review richard brookhiser. mr. brookhiser has been writing about politicians, living and dead, for most of his life. his first article on anti-war protests in the high school was a cover story in national review in 1970 when he was 15 years of age. he went to work for the magazine full time in 1977, and has been this ever since. in 1987 he began writing a column for the new york observer. and he's written for many other magazines from the atlantic monthly to cosmopolitan covering everything from the fall of communism to monica lewinsky. for a short time he wrote

speeches for vice president george w. bush, and in 2008 prime minister -- president george w. bush awarded him the hue manties medal. -- humanities medal. four more books on the founders followed. he also wrote and hosted two films, "rediscovering george washington" and "rediscovering alexander hamilton," both broadcast on pbs. in 2004 and 2005 he was historian curator of alexander hamilton, the man who made modern america, which was an exhibit at the historical society. in 2005 he received an honorary doctorate degree from be washington college. please join me in welcoming richard brookize tore the national -- brookhiser to the national archives. [applause] >> thank you, towg, -- thank yo, doug, for that introduction, and thank you all for coming.

curve hear? okay, good. james madison is, clearly, on the first string of the founding fathers, but maybe we shortchange him a little bit. i'm sure everyone in this room is carrying pictures of washington and jefferson. [laughter] because you have dollar bills or quarters or nickels. and probably a fair number have alexander hamilton pictures because you will have $10 bills. are there any high rollers with ben franklin on the 100? [laughter] i promise you no one has madison's bill. they ghei him the $5 -- they gave him the $5,000 bill between grover cleveland on the 1,000 and sal monop. chase on the 10,000. so that's not very good places. but we do honor him as the father of the constitution, and there's no higher honor than that, few as high.

and i want to talk about that this morning. i think he had another child almost as important, equally lively. i want to talk about that child as well. the way i want to do it is read the first chapter of my fourth coming book, "james madison," which touches on all these points and, um, just gives you an introduction to him. and we pick him up on an unlikely day. august 24, 1814, began as a typical summer day in washington; bright and cloudless, promising heat and humidity as the day wore on. for years james madison, the president, had fled high summer in washington and other low-lying cities for the healthier air of his inland home in the virginia piedmont.

but this august his presence was required in the capital. america had been at war with britain for two years. mr. madison's war, he had asked congress to declare it, had been fought along the canadian border against indians on the frontier and on the high seas. now the war was coming home. a week earlier on august 17th 20 british ships carrying 4500 troops had anchored in maryland only 35 miles away from washington to the southeast. the president had suggested pelting the enemy from the start with light troops, but nothing was done. instead, the british debarked and made a leisurely stroll up the maryland countryside. perhaps bound for baltimore, a booming port, the third largest in america. secretary of war john armstrong

thought so. they would certainly not come to washington, he said. what the devil will they do here? no, no, baltimore is the place, sir. but now the british had made a left turn. just hours earlier at midnight the president had gotten a note from the field. the enemy are in full march for washington, destroy the bridges, remove the records. when james madison had been a congressman a quarter century earlier, he had helped move the nation's capital from new york to an undeveloped site on the potomac. the new capitol was still hardly more than a stall town stretching from rock creek in the west to capitol hill in the east. a ragged park, decorated by a few incon grewous public buildings as if built by ancients or alien. in the of it -- midst of it

stood the white house. madison was the third president to have moved move there. john adams had spent the dismal last days of his administration in a shell inside a construction site. thomas jefferson who madison loved above all men ran it like a virginia plantation house, hosting intimate dinners for congressmen and diplomats with good food, excellent wine and his own sparkling conversation. madison's white house was grander yet thanks to his wife, dolly, who brightened it with banquets and soirees, red velvet cur tapes and -- curtains and green gilt-edged china, a piano and a macaw. now, a little before 8:00 on the morning of august 24th a message came to this republican palace from general william winder, commander of the potomac military district. it was addressed to john

armstrong, secretary of war, but the president opened et himself. it himself. the general wanted advice as fast as possible. madison mounted his horse and left the white house for winder's headquarters at the navy yard. the navy yard was a mile south of town on the eastern branch of the potomac now called the anacostia river. there was a bridge there about where the 11th street bridge is now. all morning madison conferred with officers and cabinet secretaries who came and went. the three most important represented all the types that a president typically finds about him in moments of crisis. those who might help, those who won't and those who can't. james monroe, secretary of state, was a revolutionary war veteran who had known mad southern for decades. -- madison for decades. he had quarreled with him and reconciled with him.

he was the man who had sent the midnight warning about the british march on the capital, and he had thrown himself into the effort to defend it. he had talent and energy and had decidedded to serve madison. john armstrong, another veteran of the revolutionary war, had been appointed secretary of war six months after hostilities had begun to retrieve the disasters of an incompetent predecessor. in a year and a half on the job, he had cleared out deadwood and promoted fresh faces, but he had also fallen out with the president. he disliked madison personally and disagreed with him strategically, ignoring madison's suggestions to hit the enemy as soon as they landed and focusing all his attention instead on baltimore. armstrong had talent and energy and had decided by august 1814 to use neither on madison's

behalf. the man immediately responsible for the capital's defense was william winder, a 29-year-old former lawyer, who had been in the army for only two years. he'd gotten his present assignment in july largely because he was the governor of maryland's nephew. he had been unceasingly busy. the multiplied orders, letters, consul takes and demands which crowded upon me can more easley be conceived than described, he wrote. yet he had accomplished nothing. he had energy and no talent at all. at 10:00 word reached the navy yard that the british were making for bladensburg, maryland. there was a gap in the hills there and a short bridge over the eastern branch five miles up from the navy yard where the stream is narrow. it was the natural route for anyone attacking washington from the east to take.

monroe rode off to alert whatever american troops were already there, and winder followed with reinforcements. armstrong came to the navy yard only after monroe and winder left. madison asked him if he had any advice to give. he didn't but added that since the battle would be between american militia and british regulars, the former would be beaten. madison suggested that armstrong really should take part in the coming engage. i expressed to him my concern and surprise at the reserve he showed was how madison recalled it. armstrong answered that if madison thought it proper, he would go off to bladensburg too. the president, who sensed the importance of the coming engagement even if his secretary of war did not, cannedded to -- decided to ride to bladensburg with his attorney general, richard rush. he borrowed a set of pistols and

a second mount and set off. james madison was 63 years old. he had never heard a shot fired in anger. he was a small man, just over five feet tall, just over 100 pounds. and a sickly one. all his life he was summit to what he called -- summit to what he called bilious attacks, upset stomach and bowels, and less often attacks of epilepsy. he had talent and energy in be spade. he was smarter than monroe, armstrong and winder put together. smarter than jefferson. perhaps even smarter than adams. over a lifetime of public service, he had put his mind -- forget his shoulder -- to the wheel reading, writing, speaking and thinking. driving himself so hard that he often understood mined his already not-robust constitution.

but mad szob was not -- madison was not a warrior. two years earlier he'd made himself ridiculous by visiting the war and navy departments in a little round hat. a crude attempt to become a military leader by dressing like one. it is arguable and some of his contemporaries argued it madison, said representative john calhoun, lacked the commanding talents. but he was not by nature an executive. but that morning he was the chief executive and commander in chief. war was five miles away. and he rode to meet it. he and rush took the road which is still called bladensburg road, overtaking american units as they went. after an hour in the sad l, they came town a hill alongside an or chard and towards the bridge that led to bladensburg main and

only street and it brick houses. an american horseman waved them back. the president and the attorney general had ridden ahead of their own front lines. the brush already already -- british were already entering the towns. winder and armstrong were posted on the hill they had just ascended. madison and rush rode back toward them. it was now about 1:00. there were 7,000 americans on or near the field, a mixture of militia and be regulars, plus 500 sailors who were still marching with cannon from the navy yard. more than enough to beat back the british the they were well positioned and well led. if americans crumbled here, however, there was nothing to stop the enemy from taking the capitol, and perhaps, the president and his cabinet as well the meshes -- the americans had been arranged, monroe had

taken charge altering some of the dispositions at the last minute not to advantage. he pulled troops from the orchard out into fields where they had no cover. winder was frantic, unable to make decision or give orders. madison asked armstrong if he had any decisions or had given any orders. the secretary of war answered that he had not. i remarked, wrote madison, that he might offer some advice. armstrong was not the only pass be i/aggressive personally outside bladensburg that morning. madison and armstrong rode up to winder for for a last minute consultation. muskets and artillery were already firing back and forth across the stream. spooked, the president's hour rowed horse reared and plunged so that madison could not take part in the conversation. when the secretary of war and the general were done speaking, madison asked armstrong if he had offered any advice.

armstrong replied that he hadn't and that the arrangements appeared to be as good as circumstances admitted. what john armstrong said was true. the american arrangements for the battle of bladensburg were as good as the circumstances which included the abilities and efficiency of the commanders and the abilities and deficiencies of the man who had given them their jobs and kept them there admitted. the charm was wound up, now the battle for the capital would play it out. the courage james madison showed on the morning of the battle of bladensburg is what first prompted me to write about him. it was moral counselor even more than physical -- courage even more than physical. he did not put on a hat and a cock caid, he put himself at the point of contact. on a bad day, it was likely to get worse, he chose to see what was happening and to face the

consequences of his actions. but the war of 812 is not what -- 1812 is not what people most associate with madison. he's most famous for his role in producing the constitution. madison was called the father of the constitution during his lifetime and has borne the title ever since. t a misleading title if taken too bluntly. madison was only one of seven virginia tell gates to the constitutional convention of 1787, one a -- one of 55 overall and did not get exactly the document he wanted. as the convention wrapped up, he worried in a letter that the constitution might not answer it national objects, nor prevent the local mischiefs which every were discussed. other men besides madison made essential contributions to the constitution, to the fight for ratification and to it first and most important amendment.

the constitution was written in its final form by governor morris, the peg-legged delegate from pennsylvania. a better choice for a draftsman, said madison, could not have been made. some of madison's greatest writing went into his arguments explaining and praising the constitution and the federalist papers. but the 'em prestar owe of that project was alexander hamilton who picked the authors, madison and john jay in addition to himself and wrote three-fifths of the paper. the strong e argument for ratifying approval was the approval of george washington signaled by his quiet support. madison understood that washington was the heavyweight champion of american public life which is why he stuck by him like a trainer from the planning stages of the consequence through the early days of washington's presidency. finally, the resistance of the

constitution's opponents like madison's enemy, patrick henry, obliged the constitution supporters to offer something that they as authors had neglected to provide; a bill of rights. but only madison played a central role at every stage in the constitution's birth. he was present before, at and after the creation. he was a delegate to the annapolis convention of 1786 which calls for the convention in philadelphia a year later. when the philadelphia convention met in 1787, he arrived, the first out of ten to show up, with an agenda in mind. he never missed a session, and he spoke more often than any other delegate except the flashy morris and james wilson, another pennsylvanian. he always comes forward, wrote delegate william pearce of georgia, the best informed man

on any point in debate. thanks to the federalist papers published in new york, he was a player in the fight for ratification in if that state, and he led the pro-constitution forces in virginia. political reality and jefferson's urging persuaded madison to accept the idea of a bill of rights, and as a member of the first congress, he threw himself into that bottom with characteristic energy, sorting the propoles of earnest isles into something like the first be ten amendments we have today, plus amendment 27 which regulate congressal pay raises proposed in 1789 but not ratified until 992. madison was also the first historian of the constitutional convention. as he end -- he helped shape the document, he helped to shape the

viewers iew view of it. i noted what was read from the chair or spoken by the members, and losing not a moment unnecessarily between the adjournment and reassembling of the convention, i was enable today write out my daily notes. madison's notes, the most complete set left by any delegate, have been grist for later historians ever since. madison earned his paternity of the constitution. he was a devoted and anxious parent, for he believed the happiness of a people great even in it infancy and possibly the cause of liberty throughout the world were stake t on what he and his -- were staked on what he and his colleagues had head. but the constitution was not the only subject that engrossed madison's relentless mind, and the late 1780s were not his only active years.

he was a precocious young man. he lived to be a very old one, and he devoted his long adulthood to analyzing an array of issues. in 1776, age 25, madison fought to amend the virginia declaration of right from guaranteeing fullest toleration of religion to free exercise. madison's change of wording grounded religious liberty in nature, not the permission of the state. toleration is a gift truly free men exercise their rights. the virginia declaration of right was a statement of principles. madison's principle of free exercise was not enacted into law until virginia statute for religious freedom was passed ten years later. jefferson was so proud of this law that he mentioned it on his tombstone. but it was madison who pushed jefferson's law through the

virginia assembly. i flatter myself, madison wrote jefferson after he had succeeded, that we have extinguished forever the ambitious hope of making laws for the human mind. in 1791 after the constitution was ratified, madison sat down to rethink some of the most important debates he had just won. in the federalists, he'd argued that the very size of the united states and the complexity of it new federal system would buttress liberty since maligned factions would find it hard to seize power, but now he decided that another guarantee was necessary, enlightened public opinion which would spot threats to liberty and unite with a zeal to repel them. in a new series of e essays published in the newspapers, he teased out the consequences of this idea. drown anything poll data -- drowning in poll data, we

understand the power of public opinion though we often doubt how enlightened it is. but in the early 1790s regularly consulting public opinion was a new concept. many of madison's colleagues including washington and hamilton had little use for it. they thought the people should rule when they voted, then let the victors do their best until the next election. madison glimpsed our world before it existed. madison was consumed with questions of war and peace. he had to be. the bastille fell during his first year in the first congress, and the wars touched off by the french revolution continued through the war of 1812. the united states began it national life in the shadow of a world war as violet as world wars 1 -- world wars i and ii.

it was ironic that madison asked for war in this 1812 and found himself on a battlefield two years later, for he feared war as the enemy of liberty. and had tried as jefferson's secretary of state, then as president to avoid it. surely, he believed, trade was a more powerful weapon than arms. yet when he felt america's honor was compromised, he chose to fight. both be his attitudes concern the disportion to basstism and a touchness about america's pride and it position in the world wind through later american history. in his long retirement, almost 20 year, madison grapple with the the questions of slavery and union. he heard the coming of the civil war decades before fort sumter. his solutions to the problem of slavery were worthless, a pathetic case of intellectual and moral failure. his position on the problem of

union would help solve the problem of savory. but madison is more than the father of the constitution or of other intellectual constructs. he's the father of politics. he lived in his head, but his head was always concerned with making his cherished thoughts real. in a free country, the road to reality runs think politics. madison spent as much time politicking as thinking, and he was equally good at it. he did what came naturally to him; preparation, persuasion, agenda-setting, committee work, parliamentary maneuvering. he grew up in a family as large as an oyster bed, good training for a future legislator. he worked at what did not come naturally to him, public speaking, campaigning. his voice was both harsh and

weak. time and again the note takers at debates he participated in left blanks in his remarks or simply gave up because mr. madison could not be distinctly heard. yet when circumstance required it, he debated patrick henry. debated james monroe in open air in a storm so bitter he got frostbite on his nose. he won both debates. he was not too proud to work with men or women who could, dolly madison was more than a hostess. she was a political wife, america's first. half a campaign tag team. and often the better half. likewise, madison worked with washington profiting from his charisma and his judgment. and with hamilton, profiting from his dash when he was not alarmed by it. he worked with jefferson, visionary philosopher and

politician par excellence for 40 years. he concepted to learn something about money from his younger colleague, albert galleyson, an imgrant who knew more about america's finances than most natives. madison was a great man who was not afraid of asissing or deferring to oh great men. another leg si of this tight -- legacy of this tight family life. he also work with the the henchmen ands do sips, snoops and spies. on one occasion he turned a blind eye to a mob. they do the work of politics too. her part of the game. politics has it own institutions, and madison invented a few that have lasted as long as the constitution. he helped found america's fist political party -- first political party, the republicans, in the early 1790s. later, they changed their name

to the democrats, the modern gop is an unrelated organization. today's democrats hold jefferson jackson day dinners to commemorate their origin. they might better call them jefferson/madison day dinners since their party began in 1791 when madison joined jefferson on a trip through new york and new england supposedly collecting biological specimens for the american philosophical society, actually collecting allies for themes. ..

>> leaders must labor ceaseless to enlightened. madison was a caught will buy the first american political machines of virginia's dynasty. american revolt against george iii, but the dynastic temptation is always drawn. john adams, second president, and the only founder president with sons saw his eldest, john quincy adams become the sixth president. but they were unpopular one termers.

between them stretch the virginia dynasty, to terms of jefferson, to terms of madison's, to terms of monroe. 24 years of government by neighbors and ideological soulmates. one of the iron laws of politics, what goes around comes around. throughout his career, madison was beset by enemies and suppose it for ends, wielding the same darkness he practice. fortunately, for him, he was generally skillful enough to beat them back. but another iron law of politics, you can't win them all. heroes can aspire to perfection, especially if they die young through the purity of an action or a stance. but the long haul of politics takes at least some of the shine off almost everyone. madison had an unusually good record when it came to winning

elections. not quite so good when it came to sizing up issues. the years would seem many achievements as well as blunders. from demonizing people in countries, the mishandling his own associates. we pay much less attention to james madison, father politics, then james madison father of the constitution. that's because politics -- politics is the spectacle on television and youtube, the daily perp walk on the "huffington post," the drudge report. surely our founders and framers left us something better, more solid, more inspiring than that. they did. but they all knew, and madison understood better than any of them, that ideals come to life and dozens of political transactions every day. some of those transactions are not pretty.

you can understand this and try to work with this knowledge, or you can look away. but ignoring politics will not make it stop. it will simply go on without you. sooner or later, happen to you. dolly todd in the first excitement of meeting a possible suitor, her future husband, told a friend a great little madison had asked to see me this evening. off his life madisons acquaintance rang the changes on this contrast. he was a mighty figure, and a little guy. the contrast has a moral dimension. james madison was a great man who helped build the republic. he was also an ambitious and sometimes smallbore man who stomp, spoke, counted those, pulled wires, scratched backs and stab them. he would not be afraid of the

contrast, for his deepest thinking told him that the builders of liberty have to know and sometimes use materials of passion for self advancement. it for is the continuation of politics by other means, it makes sense to introduce madison on a battlefield, even a dubious one. americans ignore him there too, because we divide our wars into two categories, those we look back on as stirring, washington's crossing, d-day. and those we ignore as unseemly or botched or both. but our present experience of afghanistan and iraq may illuminate the war of 1812. there were miscalculations and disasters in mr. madison's war. there were also moments of valor, discipline, and learning from mistakes. but madison wrote to bladensburg

more than 60 years into his life, 40 years into his career. let us begin at the beginning. my book takes on from there, and now i will take your questions. thank you. [applause] >> anybody? i mean, that's a lot of stuff i skated over. i think those are -- yes. >> would you talk a little bit about the to madisons. madison the nationalist and madison a states' rights person? >> well, what you are alluding to come and everybody here the question by the way? madison the nationals, madison this states' rights person but as i said, madison has a very long career. and at different points in his

career he either held or inspected all powers of government. and i say this in no spirit of criticism of him, but i think the importance is the attachment to the nation or to his power of the state could shift depending on where james madison was standing and what his base was. now, what makes this more than just what politicians do, call it opportunism, but also what they have to do. you have to start from where you are, not from where you are not. so that's how they came to see things. that madison did see as the constitution was being written and descended, and he was revealed as i think the first time in the federalist papers. he did see the very complexity of the american, the new system

of government that have been created in philadelphia could work for the bulwark of liberty. the fact that you had a president, and judiciary, a congress, in fact a congress had the senate chose one with an house of representatives which was chosen in another way, and then the fact that all these branches were pitted against gore stood alongside the state. the fact of this complication was a guarantee of liberty. because it meant that no malign faction could sweep across the whole country. it was like an obstacle course. an obstacle course of the federal government. so when we see in madisons own life, when we see him shifting is balanced back and forth from one of these branches to another, in a way he is enacting his own theory. the theory developed in the

federalist papers. and you know, if one were ill disposed one could say oh, well, he is change his colors, you know, he didn't say that at the time. i don't think i'm being overly charitable to say that he really, he really figured out how the new system would work in practice. and try to take advantage of it for his other goals, for both political and also ideological. yes, sir. spent looking at the period from 1789 until his death, can you tell us more about his thoughts and actions about slavery? >> well, this is coming this is not an inspiring topic. he, unlike some founders who worked to end slavery in their

own states, that some states had very few slaves at the time of the revolution. massachusetts had very few, pennsylvania had very few. some northern states had a lot. new york had a lot of slaves. and in 1785, one of hamilton's pals, alexander hamilton, and 31 other new yorkers founded a group called the new york society. their long range goal was to end slavery in the state of new york. now, it took until 1827. long after hamilton was dead. madison still alive. it took 42 years for this to happen. but it happened because some leaders decided to begin the process to stick with it. so eventually slavery in new

york was in the. madison did nothing of the kind in virginia. george washington, another dear friend of madisons, about 10 years, washington freed all the slaves as well. madison didn't do that. and he had some younger idealistic friends, also virginians, it would free their own slaves who were disappointed he had not done so. he had a younger wife who was no longer with them so they didn't have his free hand. dolly was much younger and james madison, much younger and martha washington was younger than george. in fact, quite a bit older than george. so when george washington freed all his slaves, that was living

martha for years and years and years to live without slaves. madison would know that. i'm sure he didn't. his hope was a fantastic one. he was president of the american colonization society at the end of his life. library was his american project to take freed slaves and ship them to africa. and a lot of idealism behind it. abolitionists came to criticize a very early because they thought it was a way of dodging issues. also where pushing the price of slaves up and also getting slaves out of the country. take them all to africa and we won't have to deal with this anomaly of having free slaves among us. so it was controversial. what wasn't controversial was it wasn't working very well.

an english lady, a young english writer visited madison. at the end of his life, a year before he died, and she talked with him about a lot of things. but she said that slavery seems to be preoccupying him. and that liberia was no -- she wrote in her account of her travel to america, how a mind such as his control comfort? i couldn't see. she gives a figure of how many americans were sent to liberia, and how fast a rate increase that was. i think the best thing that can be said for madison is his division on union. which is formally a distinct issue, but, of course, politics and slavery also comes into it.

and every disunion impulse in america from the federalist from the war of 1812 through the notification controversy and right up to the civil war is inflicted by the slavery question. federalists in 1812 feel maybe we got to the country where the south has an electoral lock. and similarly south carolina and all the crisis in the whole south in the civil war, feel their institution is under attack. so the issue of union and disunion anyway is the circuit for the battle over slavery. madison was all his life a firm a unionist. he had written the virginia resolve in 1798 when the federalist party seemed to be going wild. they passed the indian act. that looked like they were imposing almost a dictatorship

on america. madison injects fear so they wrote these revolutions say states have the power to interpose when the federal government was doing something unconstitutional. but madison, as an old man, he always said, i meant the states for. i never an individual state have such power. and what i meant is what happened in 1798, that states would raise the alarm and then we would throw the bums out in the next election. as what happened in 1800. that's my modified this should be. i was not talking about secession. he said the joint of a resolution -- the revolution, we can always have a revolution. and that never goes away. you can't smuggle it in through the constitution. if things are that bad, burn it all down and leave. that's not what southerners would say. they're saying we have a right

to secede. madison only said no, no, you don't. and so i do wonder in my book. i say it's both resistible and foolish to ask how would a 109 year-old madison would have voted in the election of 1860? and i conclude not for lincoln, because lincoln was trying to keep slavery out of the territories and madison would have denied federal government to do such a thing. he wouldn't have voted for breckenridge because breckenridge was a southern. he might have voted for douglas. douglas was a jacksonian and madison was sort of close to jackson at the end of his life. he probably would have voted for bell it was the tennessee unionist whose running mate had published one of madisons last papers in favor of the union.

that ticket carried three states and finished fourth in the popular vote carrying three states. it wasn't nearly as effective. but i suspect that they would've voted for. and if he lived to see the crash, i can't imagine him joining in this session. that would've just been the ruining of all his life's work. so that's a very roundabout answer, but i'm afraid your question requires that. because it's a painful and a complex subject. madison's course through it, we owe it to them to try to understand it and figure it out and follow him. it's not, certainly not entirely honorable. it's in part on herbal, and think the result has been with the country ended up, but the union being victorious. yes, sir.

>> i'm kind of more interested in the negative side of his service as president. i mean, you talked about a man who had a long political career, and you noted that in politics over the course of a long season no one bats 1000 the u.n. some, you lose some. so in his eight years, you talked about the two great events that people associate with the constitution and his performance. but he served a long time. what over the years, what were his political, what was his book is getting a position in congress, his relations and what was some of the more notable domestic or everyday political accomplishments and failures in the course of his service? >> i think we can identify some issues that run right through his career. one of them, even when he is in

condo congress, in his '20s and the revolutionary war hasn't even been won yet, he's thinking how can america get bigger? he has his eye on the mississippi valley back in the early 1780s. he sees this is the way he wants america to go. he hopes it will go. he expects it to go. he wants our diplomacy with spain to be oriented towards that. louisiana, france had given louisiana to spain after seven years worse so they were our western neighbors. and madison is always trying to think, how can we get the right to navigate them, how can we get louisiana, how can we get florida? he's very keen on getting florida. actually one thing he does as president is he simply takes part of it, of the florida panhandle original rant all the way from mississippi to the east

bank of the mississippi. so baton rouge was the westernmost extent of florida, because the panhandle just ran right along the gulf to mississippi. madison as secretary of state, as jefferson secretary of state, as president he tries buying it. he tried getting friends to bully spain to give it to us. he tried all sorts of ways to get this. and then finally he is president, has some americans attack the spanish for an baton rouge and he tells the army to go in and take it. he just like it does it. so seek and you shall find type thing. was his attitude. and also the reason, and jefferson i think also shares this impulse of expansion westward. that's one of the reasons they get louisiana. that's a very complicated story.

but one reason they got it is they were looking for it. they're hoping for something. so when the opportunity, this surprising opportunity comes up, they jump on it. so that's one continuity in his life. these our foreign policy issues, but foreign policy plays a big role in domestic politics in the early republic. and they are i think we can see that madison was consistently in anglophone. end of the this would reverse. and madison as a francophile, during the revolutionary war, before the french revolution, the french revolution makes them even more frank affiliates. he thinks it's a great thing. this is a victory for liberty. he doesn't bail out on the french revolution to any extent

and kill napoleon. napoleon he can see this is a military deficit. this is a bad way for a republican to go. it will and the french republic and it does. but even still, i feel that he is always willing to cut napoleon more slack than he's willing to cut the british. and there are many maneuvers back and forth, a whole history of america versus britain versus france. and then how plays out in american politics. it's very complex, but it's madisons default position as well as the british are ones who are always really on our tail. you know, france, maybe like france, maybe don't. but it's the british who have ports on our front tier. the british who invaded virginia and chased my friend of jefferson, you know, really this

long grudge list. so the war of 1812 in a very important sense is, let's just do it. let's just have it out, instead of going on for years, enough already. and you know, at the end, technically it's a draw that we declared victory. so that's how it becomes. yes, sir. >> thank you for a very interesting discourse. my question is, brings us back to madison and jackson. jackson during madisons presidency was a rising star militarily and politically in the indian wars and in 1814 in new orleans. what was the real relationship? what did madison really think

about jackson? >> during that time and later. >> well, i'm glad you added that because i think his opinion changes. i think early on, like the other great virginian, sort of older jefferson, madison, and also monroe, youngest of them, they are alarmed by jackson. they sort of thing, who is this guy? at one point i believe it was monroe thought of sending jackson as minister to russia. and jefferson, you know, from monticello rights i give you the war in six weeks, what are you thinking about? and it is that, loose cannon. but by the time they are all retired, and by the time jackson is president and monroe is the

last surviving great virginian, and he sees jackson's nationalism during the nullification crisis as something that he endorses. and he has a young friend who is the son of his old philadelphia landlady, his jackson's private secretary. so this guy is madisons pipeline to jackson. so they are in touch during the whole nullification crisis. and at least in touch to the extent that jackson knows that madison is in his corner, and madison those jackson knows that. i mean, they see this whole challenge in south carolina, in really exactly the same way. and madison even feeds another person working for jackson, livingston. he writes jackson's message which says, i'm not going to let

this go forward. and madison is in touch with livingston, back to the 1790s. so by the time jackson is old and madison is much older, they've sort of found a way to diffuse. are we done? okay, thank you so much. [applause] >> this event was hosted by the national archives in washington, d.c.. >> booktv's focus on charlotte, north carolina, continues all weekend. next, an interview with the president of the charlotte writers club, david radavich. >> can you give me a little bit of the history of the charlotte

writers club? >> it was founded in 1922, so that makes it one of the largest, the oldest arts organizations in north korea. one of the oldest. it started off i think a little bit more of a social club, a reading club. for lovers of literature and then it's just evolved over time. it's going to be 90 years old -- know. is that right? 90 years old next year. >> what is the club's focus? >> we have a variety of focus. we want to be a support group for writers. so we offer workshops, contests. we meet once a month during the academic year and look to presentations by established writers. and we want to offer resource and networking for writers. we also have members who are publishers, editors, people who love reading, or literacy, we are advocates for leaders as well. we have people who have published a number of novels, poets, playwrights have been

introduced. but we also have a number of young people who are just starting out that haven't published anything. it's very eclectic. we have journalists. we have, the mystery writers, we have a friend who writes the zombie and vampire novels, and you have academic poets, historians. a little bit of everything. and i think that's wonderful. it's not an academic group particularly although we certain have academic people in it. but we have people who write bestsellers, and so on. and then charlotte is an interesting place because it's a large city, but it also has different kinds of tuners, ethnic communities and different kinds of groups. so that makes it fast and. we have a lot of different groups and that's one of the things we offer to writers. i would guess maybe as many as half of our writers belong to critique groups. these are typically four, six wired into group and you might

see, it might be a novel group for a science-fiction group or poetry. short stories, children's literature, young adult. you get together with these people and you read each other's work, writing is a very lonely kind of endeavor. you do that by herself but then you want to go out and interact with other writers can get feedback before you send it to the publisher. we offer a lot of that. we offer opportunities for new writers to connect with people, get a mentor, join a critique group, and listen to these presenters coming. we have a number of great writers who coming to talk about their writing. they read from it and then they talk about how they vote. the answer questions about publishing. we have a man coming in at our september meeting, kevin watson, is the founder and editor of press 53 which is one of the leading independent publishers in north carolina. he's going to talk a