a accident, whatever label when it comes to the challenge, creation care, evangelical environmentalism, secular green, planetary, this glow of ours meet someone shows how to love better. as he always was in love, johnny appleseed is late after even now, the line between present and future, man and myth, the real and imagined ready to lead the way. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> and now on booktv for richard brookhiser recounts the life of the fourth american president james madison. he examines madison's influence in the framing of the u.s. constitution, collaboration on the federalist papers, development of the republican party, and his command of troops during the war of 1812. it's a little as than an hour.

>> good afternoon, everyone. i'm the manager here at the national archives experience. i'd like to welcome you all and are good friends at c-span to the special constitution day program. today the national archives sobering the 224th birthday of the united states constitution with an author talk on james madison who was father of the constitution. we are honored today to have as our special guest speaker the preeminent historian and senior editor for "national review," richard brookhiser. mr. brookhiser has been writing about politicians, living and dead for most of his life. his first article in high school was a cover story in "national review" in 1970. when he was 15 years old. he went to work for the magazine full-time in 1977 and has been there ever since. in 1987 he began writing a column for the new york

observer. and has written for many of the magazines on "the atlantic monthly" cosmopolitan cover everything from the fall of communism, the monica lewinsky. for a short time he wrote speeches for vice president george h. w. bush, and in 2008 president george w. bush awarded him the national humanities medal in a white house ceremony. in 1996 he published his first biography, "founding father: rediscovering george washington." for more books on the founders follow. he also wrote and hosted two films, rediscovering george washington, and rediscovering alexander hamilton, broadcast on pbs. and 2004 and 2005 he was the historian and curator of alexander hamilton, the man who made modern america which was an exhibit at the new acoustical society. in 2005 he received a doctorate degree from washington college. please join me in welcoming richard brookhiser to the national archives. [applause]

>> thank you for that introduction, and thank you for all coming. can everybody hear? okay, good. james madison is clearly on the first string of the founding fathers, but maybe we short change them a little bit. i'm sure everyone in this room is carrying pictures of washington and jefferson, because you have dollar bills or quarters or nickels. and probably a fair number have alexander hamilton pictures, because you will have a $10 bill. are there any high rollers with ben franklin on the 100? i promise you, no one has madison's bill. they gave him the $5000 bill. between grover cleveland on the 1000, and chase on a 10,000.

so that's not very good place. but we do on him as the father of the constitution, and there's no higher honor than that, few as high. and i want to talk about that this morning. i think he had another child, almost as important, the equally lively. i want to talk about that child as well. the way i want to do is read the first chapter of my forthcoming book, "james madison," which touches on all these points, and this gives you an introduction to him. and we pick him up on an unlikely day. august 24, 1814, began as a typical summer day in washington, bright and cloudless, promising heat and humidity as the day wore on.

per year is james madison, a president, had fled the high summer in washington, and other low-lying cities for the healthier air of his england home, virginia piedmont. but this august his presence was required in the capital. america had been at war with britain for two years. mr. madison's war, he had asked congress to declare it, had been fought along the canadian border against indians on the frontier, and on the high seas. now the war was coming home. a week earlier on august 17, 20 british ships gearing 4500 troops had anchored in the river in maryland only 35 miles away from washington to the southeast. the president had suggested helping the enemy. but nothing was done. instead, the british depart and

made an easterly stroll along the maryland countryside. perhaps down for baltimore, a booming port, the third largest in america. secretary of war, john armstrong, lots o. they would surely not come to washington, he said. what the devil will they to hear? no, no, baltimore is the place. but now the british had made a left turn, just hours earlier at midnight the president had gotten a note from the field. the enemy are in full march for washington. destroy the bridges, remove the records. when james madison had been a congressman, a quarter century earlier, he had helped the nation's capital from new york to an undeveloped site on the potomac. the new capital was still hardly more than a small town, stretching from rock creek in the west to capitol hill i in te east. a ragged arc, decorated by a few

in congress is built by ancients or aliens. in the midst of its to the white house, madison was the third president to have lived there. john adams, madison scored, had spent the dismal last days of his administration in a shell inside a construction site. thomas jefferson, who madison loved above all men, ran it like a virginia plantation house, posting intimate dinners for congressmen and diplomats, good food, excellent wine, and his own sparkling conversation. madisons white house was grander yet, thanks to his wife dolly, who brightened it with banquets in soirées, red velvet curtains, and green guilt edged china, a piano and a macaw. now, a little before 8:00, the

morning of august 24, a message came to this republican palace from general william, commander of the potomac military district. it was addressed to john armstrong, secretary of war, but the president opened it himself. the general wanted advice, as fast as possible. mattison mounted his force and left the white house from headquarters at the navy yard. and navy yard was a mile south of town on the eastern branch of the potomac, now called the anacostia river. there was a bridge their about what the 11th street bridge is now. madison conferred with officers and cabinet secretaries who came and went. the three most important represented all the sites the president typically finds about him in moments of crisis. those who might help, those who won't, and those who can't.

james monroe, secretary of state, was a revolutionary war veteran who had no medicine for decades. he had quarreled with him and reconciled within. he was the manhood since the midnight warning about british march on the capital, and he had thrown himself into the efforts. he had talent and energy, and have decided to serve madison. john armstrong, another veteran of the revolutionary war, had been appointed secretary of war six months after hostilities had begun. a year and half on the job, he had cleared out dead wood and promoted freshness. but he had also fallen out with the president. he just like madison personally, and disagreed with him strategically. ignoring madison suggestions and hit the inning as soon as they landed in focusing all his attention instead on baltimore.

armstrong had talent and energy, and had decided by august 1814, use neither on madison's behalf. and maintain responsible for the capital's defense was william winder, a 39 year old former lawyer who had been in the army for only two years. he had gotten his present assignment in july, largely because he was governor of maryland nephew. he had been unceasingly busy, inevitably multiplied orders, letters, consultations and demands which crowded upon me cannot easily be conceived and described, he wrote. yet he had accomplished nothing. he had energy, and no talent at all. at 10:00 word reached the navy yard for the british were making for bladensburg, maryland, the village northeast of the capital. there was a gap in the hills and

a short bridge over the eastern branch five miles up from the navy yard with the stream is narrow. it was a natural route for anyone at checking washington from the east to take. monroe rode off to alert whatever american troops were already there, and winder followed with reinforcements. armstrong came to the navy yard only after monroe and winder left. madison asked him if he had any advice to give. he didn't, but added that since the battle would be between american militia and british regulars, the former could be beaten. madison suggested that armstrong really should take part in the coming engagement. i expressed to him by concern and surprise at the reserve he showed, was how madison recalled it. armstrong answered that if madison thought proper, he would go off to bladensburg, too. the president since the importance of the coming

engagement even as the secretary of war did not, decided to write to bladensburg, with attorney general richard rush. he borrowed a set of pistols, and since his horse suddenly went lame, a second mount, and set off. james madison was 63 years old. he had never heard a shot fired in anger. he was a small band, just over five feet tall, just over 100 pounds. and a sickly one. all his life he was subject to what he called attacks, upset stomach and bowels. and less often attacks resembling epilepsy, suspending the election will functions. he had talent and energy. he was smarter than monroe, armstrong and winder put together. smarter than jefferson, perhaps he was smarter than adams. over a lifetime of public service he put his mind, for put

his shoulder to the wheel, reading, writing, human thinking, driving himself so hard that he often undermined is already not robust constitution. but madison was not a warrior. two years earlier, war was declared, he made himself or did this by visiting the war and navy departments in a little round hat, a crude attempt to become a military leader by dressing like one. it is arguable that some of his contemporaries argued that madison representative john calhoun last -- lacked the commanding talent, but he was not by nature and executive. but that morning he was a chief executive and commander-in-chief. war was five miles away, and he rode to meet it. he and russia took the road, which are still go bladensburg road, overtaking american units

as they would. after i bought in the saddle they came down the hill alongside an orchard toward the bridge that led over the eastern branch to bladensburg's main and only street and its brick houses. and an american horse been horsd waved them back to the present and the attorney general had written ahead of their own front line. the british were already entering the town from the opposite direction. winder, munro and armstrong were posted on the hill they had just ascended to the rear. madison and rush wrote back toward them. it was now about 1:00. there were 7000 americans on or near the field, a mixture of militia in regulars, plus 500 sailors who were still marching with cannon from the navy yard. more than enough to beat back the british if they well-positioned and well lead. if the americans crumbled here, however, there was nothing to stop the enemy from taking the

capital, and perhaps the president and his cabinet as well. the americans had been arranged in three lines. too close to the bladensburg bridge, a third a mile further back. monroe had taken charge. he pulled troops from the orchard out of the fields where they had no cover. winder was frantic, unable to make decisions or give voters. madison asked armstrong if he had any decisions or have given any orders. the secretary of war answered that he had not be i remarked, wrote madison, that he might offer some advice. armstrong was not the only passive aggressive personality outside bladensburg that morning. madison and armstrong rode up to winder for a last minute consultation. muskets and artillery were already firing back and forth across the stream. spooked the presidents borrowed horse reared and plunged some

medicine could not take part in the conversation. when the secretary of war and agenda were done speaking, madison asked armstrong if he had offered any advice. armstrong replied that he hadn't, and that the arrangements appear to be as good as circumstances admitted. what john armstrong said was true. the american arrangements in the battle of bladensburg were as good as the circumstances which included the abilities and deficiencies of the commanders and the abilities and deficiencies of the man who had given them their job and kept them there, the charmless wound up, now the battle for the capital would play itself out. the courage james madison showed on the morning of the battle of bladensburg is what first prompted me to write about it. it was moral courage, even more than physical. he did not put on a hat, he put

himself to the point of contact. on a bad day, that was likely to get worse, he chose to see what was happening, to face the consequences of his actions. but the war of 1812 was not what people most associate with madison. he's most famous for his role in producing the constitution. madison was called the father of the constitution during his lifetime, and has worn the title ever since. it's a misleading title taken to bluntly. madison was only one of seven virginia delegates to the constitutional convention of 1787, one of 55 overall, and did not get exactly the document he wanted. as the convention wrapped up he worried in a letter to his friend jefferson, at the constitution might not answer its national object, nor prevent the local mischiefs which everywhere excite.

other men besides madison made essential contributions to the constitution, to the plight for ratification and ports first and most message. the constitution was written in its final form by governor morris, peg leg the delegate from pennsylvania. the better chores for a trestman, said madison, could not have been made. some of madison's greatest writing went into his argument explaining and praising the cost of tuition in the federalist papers. but that project was alexander hamilton, pick the author, madison or john j. in addition to himself, and wrote three-fifths of the 85 papers. the strongest argument for ratifying the constitution reads -- was the approval of george washington say goodbye is present at the convention and his quiet support afterwards. madison understood that washington was the heavyweight champion of american public

life, which is why he stuck by him like a trainer from the planning stages of the convention to the early days of washington's president. finally, the resistance of the constitution's opponents like madison's in the patrick henry, obliged the constitution supporters to offer something that they as authors had neglected to provide, a bill of rights. that only madison played a central role at every stage in the constitution's birth. he was present before, at and after the creation. he was a delegate to the annapolis convention of 1786 which called for the convention in philadelphia a year later. when a philadelphia convention met in 1787, he arrived, the first out of town to show up, with an agenda in mind. he never missed a session, and he spoke more often than any

other delegate except the flashing morse and james wilson, another pennsylvanian. he always comes forward, wrote pierce of georgia, the best informed demand on any point in debate. thanks to the federalist papers, published in new york, he was a player in the fight for ratification in that state, and he led the pro-constitution forces in virginia. political reality after jefferson's urging persuaded madison to accept the idea of a bill of rights, and as a member of the first congress he threw himself into that project with characteristic energy, sorting the proposals in earnest idealists and secret saboteurs into something like the first 10 amendments we are today. plus amendment 27 which regulates congressional pay raises, proposed in 1789 but not ratified until 1992.

madison was also the first the story on the constitutional convention. as he helped shape the document, he worked to shape the future. every day of the convention met, he posted himself in the front of the head table at independence hall. in this favorable position for hearing all that is passed, i noted what was read to the chair are spoken by members, and losing not a moment unnecessarily between the adjournment every assuming of the convention, i was enabled to write out my daily notes. madison's notes, the most complete set left by any delicate that would be -- madison earned, he was a devoted and anxious parent, for he believed the happiness of the people even in its infancy, and possibly the cause of liberty throughout the world were staked on what he and his colleagues have made.

but the constitution was not the only subject engrossed madison's relentless mind, and the late 1780s were not his only active years. he was a precocious young man. and unlike many hypochondriacs eluded every old one and he devoted his long adulthood to analyzing an array of issues. in 1776, age 25, madison thought to amend the virginia declaration of rights for guaranteeing fullest toleration of religion the free exercise. madison's change of wording grounded religious liberty in nature, not the permission of the state. fodder ration is a gift, truly free men exercise their right. the virginia declaration of rights was a state of principles. madison's principle of free exercise was not enacted into law until the virginia statute for religious freedom, written

by jefferson, was past 10 years later. epperson was so proud of this law that he mentioned it on his tombstone. but it was madison who pushed jefferson's law to the virginia for similar. i flatter myself, madison wrote jefferson, after he succeeded that we extinguished for ever ambitious hope of making laws for the human mind. in 1791, after the constitution was ratified, madison sat down to rethink some of the most important debates he had just one. in the federalist he argued the very size of the united states and the complexity of this new federal system would buttress liberty, since mud line factions would find it hard to seize power. but now he decide that another guarantee was necessary, enlightened public opinion. which would spot thrust to liberty and unite to repel them.

in a new series of essays published like the federalist in the newspapers, he keys out the consequences of this idea. drowning in poll data, we understand the power of public opinion, though we often doubt how enlightened it is. but in the early 1790s, regularly consulting public opinion was the new concept. many of madison's colleagues, including washington and hamilton, had little use for it. they thought people should rule of when they voted, and let the victors do the best intel the next election. madison glimpsed our world before it existed. madison was consumed with questions on war and peace. he had the bastille fell during his first year in the first congress, and the worst touched off by the french revolution continued through the war of 1812. the united states began its national life in the shadow of a

world war, and a violent world wars one and two, longer than both of them put together him and his ideological as the cold war. it was ironic that madison asked for war in 1812 and found himself on a battlefield two years later, for he feared for act in the of liberty, and tried as jefferson secretary of state, then as president to avoid it. surely he betrayed was a more powerful weapon than arms. yet when he felt americans on wisconsin might he chose to fight. in both his attitude, disposition to pacifism and the touching is about americans pride and its position in the world, aligned to later american history. in his long retirement, almost 20 years, madison grappled with the question of slavery in union. he heard the coming of the civil war decades before fort sumter.

his solutions to the problem of slavery were worthless, a pathetic case of intellectual and moral failure. his position on the problem of union would help solve the problem of slavery. but madison is more than the father of the constitution or of other intellectual constructs. he's the father of politics. he lived in his head, that his head was always concerned with making his cherished thoughts real. in every country, the road to reality runs through politics. madison spent as much time politicking and thinking. and he was equally good at it. he did what came naturally to him, preparation, persuasion, agenda setting, committee work, parliamentary maneuvering. he grew up in a family as large as an oyster bed, good training

for a future legislator. he worked at what he did not come naturally to him, public speaking, campaign. his voice was both harsh and we. time again the notetakers a debate he participate in left blanks in his remarks, or simply gave up because mr. madison could not be distinctly heard. yet when circumstances required it, he debated patrick henry. he debated james monroe in the open air in a snowstorm so bitter he got frostbite on his nose. he won both debates. when he found a political jordan absolutely could not do he was not too proud to work with men or women who could. dolly madison was more than hostess. she was a political wife america's first. have a campaign tagteam, and often the better half. likewise medicine worked with washington, profiting from his

charisma and judgment. and with hamilton profiting from when he was not alarmed by it. he work with jefferson, philosopher for four years. he consented to learn something about money from his younger colleague albert gallatin, a swiss immigrant who spoke with a french accent but knew more about america's finances and most natives. madison was a great man who was not afraid of assisting or deferring to other great men, another legacy. he also worked with the less, patch men and gossip, the snoops and the spies. on one occasion he turned a blind eye to a mob your they do the work of politics to. they are part of the game. politics has its own institutions and madison, had a

few that last as long as the constitution. he helped found america's first political party, the republicans, in the early 1790s. later they changed their name to the democrats. the modern gop isn't unrelated organization. today's democrats hold jefferson jackson day dinner to commemorate the origin. they might better call them jefferson and madison day dinners. since their party begin in 1791 when madison joined jefferson on a trip through new york and england, supposedly collecting biological specimens for the american philosophical society, actually collecting allies for themselves. madison helped found the first party newspaper, the national gazette, which dissected issues, personalities and ground ideological ax. the nation, "the new republic," "national review," fox and msnbc

perform the same tasks today. he recruited the paper's first editor, an old college chum who gaveled in poetry. jefferson gave him a nominal job as a translator in the state department, and in his free time he smacked hamilton and washington in prose. madison's interest and publicity loaded match with an interest in public opinion, but the powerful force could not be allowed to develop randomly or to be molded by liberties enemies. ..

>> two terms of jefferson, two terms of madison, two terms of monroe. twenty-four years of government by neighbors and ideological soul mates. one of the iron laws of politics is that what goes around comes around. throughout his career madison was beset by enemies and supposed friends wielding the same dark arts that he practiced. fortunately for him, he was generally skillful enough to beat them back. but another iron law of politics is that you can't win them all. heros can aspire to perfection, especially if they die young through the purity of an action or a stance. but the long haul of politics takes at least some of the shine

off almost everyone. madison had an unusually good record when it came to winning elections, not quite so good when it came to sizing up issues and men. the years would see many achievements as well as rigidities and blunders from demonizing people and countries to mishandling his own associates. we pay much less attention to james madison, father of politics, than to james madison, father of the constitution. that is because politics embarrasses us. politics is the spectacle on television and youtube, the daily perp walk on the huffington post and the drudge report. surely, our founders and framers left us something better, more solid, more inspiring than that. they did. but they all knew, and madison understood better than any of

them, that ideals come to life in dozens of political transactions every day. some of those transactions aren't pretty. you can understand this and try to work with this knowledge, or you can look away. but ignoring politics not make it stop. it will simply go on without you, and sooner or later happen to you. dolly payne todd in the first excitement of meeting a possible suitor, her future husband, told a friend the great little madison had asked to see me this evening. all his life madison's acquaintances rang the changes on this contrast. he was a mighty figure and be a little guy. the contrast has a moral dimension too. james madison was a great man who helped build a republic. he was also an ambitious and sometimes small bore man who stumped, spoke, counted vote t,

pulled wires, scratched backs and standed them. stabbed them. he would not be atrade of the contrast, for his deepest thinking told him that the builders of liberty had to know and sometimes use the materialses of passion -- materials of passion and self-advancement. if war is the continuation of politics by other means, it make sense to introduce madison on a battlefield, even a dubious one. americans ignored him there, too, because we divide our wars into two categories; those we look back on as stirring, washington's crossing, picket be's charge -- picket's charge, d-day, and those we ignore as unseemly or botched or both. but our present experience of afghanistan and iraq may illuminate the war of 1812. there were miscalculations and disasters in mr. madison's war, but there were also moments of

valor, discipline and learning from mistakes, even at bladensburg. madison rode to bladensburg more than 60 years into his life, 40 years into his career, let us begin at the beginning. and my book takes on from there, and now i'll take your questions. thank you. rz. [applause] anybody, i mean, that's a lot of stuff i skateed over, but those are the -- yes, sir. >> hi. would you talk a little bit about the two madisons, that is madison the nationalist and madison the states' rights person? >> well, what you're alluding to, did can everybody hear the question, by the way? madison the nationalist, madison

the states' rights person? as i said, madison had a very long career, and at different points in his career he either held or expected to held power at different levels of government. and i say this in no spirit of criticism of him, but i think the importance that he attached to the nation or to the power of the states could shift depending on where james madison was standing and what his base was. now, what, um, makes this more than just what politicians do, i mean, you can call it opportunism, but it was it's what they have to do. i mean, you have to start from where you are, not from where you aren't, so this is how they tend to see things and think of things. but madison did see as the constitution was being written and defended, and he revealed this, i think, for the first

time in the federalist papers. he did see that the very complexity of the american, the new system of government that had been created in philadelphia could work as a bulwark of liberty. the fact that you had a president, a judiciary, a congress, the fact that congress had the senate which was chosen one way and a house of representatives which was chosen another way and then the fact that all of these branches were pitted against or stood alongside the state, the fact of this complication was a force, was a guarantee of liberty because it meant that, um, no maligned faction could sweep across the whole country. it was like an obstacle course, an objection cl course with branches of government. so that when we see that in madison's own life when we see him shifting his balance back and forth from one of these

branches to another, in a way he's enacting his own theory, you know, the theory that he developed in the federalist papers. and, um, you know, if one were ill disposed, one could say, well, you know, he's changing his colors, and some of his enemies, you know, did say that at the time. um, i don't think i'm being overly charitable to say that he really, he really figured out how the new system would work and practiced and tried to take advantage of it for his other goals which were both political and also ideological. yes, sir. >> looking at the period from 1789 this his death could you tell us more about his thoughts and actions regarding slavery? >> well, this is a, um, this is not an inspiring topic.

he, unlike some founders who worked to end slavery in their own states -- now, some states had very few slaves at the time of the revolution. um, massachusetts had very few, pennsylvania had very few. some northern states had a lot. new york had a lot of slaves. and in 1785 one of hamilton's pals, alexander hamilton, and 31 other new yorkers founded a group called the new york man mission society, and their long-range goal was to end slavery in the state of new york. now, it took until 1827, long after hamilton was dead, hadson was still alive -- madison was still alive but a very old man. it took 42 years for this to

happen. but it happened because some leaders decided to begin the effort and begin the process and stick with it. and so eventually slavery in new york was ended. madison did nothing of the kind himself in virginia. george washington, another tear friend of madison -- dear friend of madison's for be, i'd say about ten years in the middle of his early life, washington freed all his slaves in his will. madison didn't do that. and he had some, some younger idealistic friends, also virginians, who had freed their own slaves who were disappointed that he had not done so. now, he had, he had a younger wife who was going to outlive him, so he didn't have a free, he didn't have a free hand. dolly was much younger than james madison, much, much younger than martha washington was younger than george.

in fact, martha was a year older than george. so when george washington frees all his slaves, he knows he's not leaving martha, you know, for years and years and years to live without slaves. but madison would know that, and i'm sure that's a reason he didn't. his hope was a fantastic one. it was liberia. he was president of the american colonization at the end of his life. liberia was a project to take freed slave and ship them to africa. and there was a lot of idealism behind it. abolitionists came to criticize it very early because they thought it was way of dodging the issue, it's also a way, possibly, of keeping the price of slaves up andal getting free slaves -- and also getting free slaves out of the country. you know, we take them all to africa, and we won't have to deal with this anomaly of having free slaves among us.

so it was controversial. what wasn't controversial was it wasn't working very well. um, an english lady, a young english writer named harriet visited madison at the end of his life, a year before he died, and she talked with him about a lot of things. she admired him greatly. but she said that slavery seemed to be preoccupying him and that liberia was the only solution he could see. and she wrote in her account of her travels in america how a mind such as his could draw comfort from this source, i couldn't, i couldn't see. and she gives the figures of how many americans had been sent to liberia and yet what the slave population was and how fast its rate of increase was, and there was no way these two lines were ever going to intersect. i think the best thing that can said for madison is his position on union which is formally a

distinct issue but, of course, the politics of slavery also comes into it. and every disunionist impulse in america from the federalists in the war of 1812 through the nullification controversy and right up to the civil war is inflected by the slavery question. you know, the federal is in many 1812 feel be, well, maybe we've got to leave a country where the south has an electoral lock and then similarly south carolina and the nullification crisis and then the whole south in the civil war feel that there are peculiar institutions under attack. so the issue of union and disunion is, in many ways, a surrogate for the battle over slavery. now, madison was all his life a firm unionist. he had written the virginia resolve in 1798 when the federalist party seemed to be going wild.

they passed the alien act and the sedition act, and it looked like they were, um, imposing almost a dictatorship on america, that's what madison and jefferson feared. so they wrote these resolutions saying that states had the power to interpose when the federal government was doing something unconstitutional. but madison as an old man, he always said i meant the states, plural, i never meant that an individual state had such power. and what i meant was what actually happened in 1798, that states would raise the alarm, and then we'd throw the bums out at the next election which was what happened in 1800, and he always said that's my model for how this should be. i was not talking about secession. he said, if you want to have a revolution, you always are the right of revolution. you know, that never goes away. but that's outside the constitution, you know? you can't smuggle it in through the constitution. if things are that bad, you've

just got to burn it all down and leave. that's not what southerners are saying, they're saying, well, we have a right to secede, and madison always said, no, no you don't. and so i do wonder in my book, i say it's both irresistible and foolish to ask how would 109-year-old madison voted in the election of 1860. and i conclude not for lincoln because lincoln was trying to keep slavery out of the territories, and madison would have denied that the federal government could do such a thing. he wouldn't have voted for breckenridge because breckenridge was just a ruler-ruling southerner. he might have voted for douglas douglas was a jacksonian. he probably would have voted for bell who was the tennessee unionist whose running mate had published one of madison's last

cohemmics in favor of the -- polemics in favor of the union. this was everett. and the bell/everett ticket, it carried three states, they finished fourth in the popular vote. they carried three states. wasn't very effective. but i suspect that's who he would have voted for. and if he'd lived to see the crash, i can't imagine him joining in secession. that would have just been the ruin of all his life's work. so that's a very round about answer, but i'm afraid your question requires that. it's a -- because it's a painful and a complex subject, and madison's course through it is, you know, we owe it to him to try and understand it and figure it out and follow him. it's not, certainly not entirely honorable. it's in part honorable, and i think the result would have been where the country ended up which is a horrible civil war.

but the union being victorious. yes, sir. >> this gentleman has been waiting. >> oh, sorry, sorry. i didn't realize we had two mics. >> i'm actually kind of more interests in maybe the more probe sayic side of his services. you talked about a man who had a long political career, and you noted that in politics over the course of a long season no one bats a thousand, you win some, you lose some. so in his eight years, um, he talked about the two great event that people associate with him, the constitution and your talk of the war and his performance be there. but he had, he served a long time. what over the years were his, um, what were his political, what was his political standing and position in the congress, his relations, and what were some of the more notable, i'd say, domestic or, you know, everyday political accomplishments and failures in

the course of his service? >> sure. i think we can identify some issues that run right through his career. one of them is expansion. even when in the continental congress, when he's in his 20s and the revolutionary war hasn't even been won yet, he's thinking of how can america get bigger, you know? and he has his eye on the mississippi valley back in the early 1780s. you know, he sees this is the way he wants hurricane to go. he hopes -- he wants america to go. he hopes it will go, he expects it will go. he wants our diplomacy with spain to be oriented towards that. louisiana -- france had given louisiana to spain of after the seven years' war, so they were our western neighbors, and madison is always, you know, trying to think, well, how can we get the right to navigate the mississippi, how can we get louisiana, how can we get florida? he's very keen on getting florida. and actually one thing he does

as president is he simply takes part of it. the florida panhandle originally ran all the way to the mississippi, to the east bank of the mississippi. so baton rouge was the westernmost extent of florida because the panhandle just ran right along the gulf to mississippi. and madison as secretary of state, as jefferson's secretary of state and as president he tried buying it, you know, he tried getting france to bully spain to give it to us, i mean, he tried all sorts of ways to get this. and finally he's president, and some americans attack a spanish fort in baton ruin, and he -- baton rouge, and he tells congress -- he tells the army to go in and take it. congress isn't even in session. seek and ye shall find, you know, was his attitude. and jefferson, i think, also

shares this impulse for westward expansion. that's one to have reasons they get louisiana. that's a very complicated story but one reason they got it is they were looking for it. i mean, they were hoping for something. so when the opportunity, this surprising opportunity comes up, they jump on it. so that's one continue knewty in the his life -- continuity in his life. now, these are foreign policy issues, but foreign policy plays a big role on domestic politics in the early republic, and there i think we can see that madison was consistently an anglo-phobe and a frank o file. and madison as a frank-of-file during the revolutionary war before there's a french revolution, the french revolution make him even more a

frank o fill yak. he thinks this is a great thing, this is a victory for liberty. he doesn't bail out on the french revolution to any extent until napoleon. i mean, in napoleon he can see this is a military despot, this is a bad way for a republic to go. it will end the french republic, and it does. but he still even so, i feel that he's always willing to cut napoleon more slack than he's willing to cut the british. his, um, and there are many maneuvers back and forth. the whole history of america versus britain versus france and then how it plays out in american politics is very, is very complex, but madison's default position is, well, the british are the ones who are always really on our tail, you know? france, maybe you like france, maybe you don't. but it's the british who are

impressing our seamen, it's the british who are stirring up indians, the british who invaded virginia and chased my friend jefferson, you know, out of monticello. it's really this long grudge list. and so the war of 1812 in a very important sense is, all right, let's just do it finally. let's just have it out. this has been going on for years, enough already. and, you know, we, he -- at the end, technically, a draw, but we declare it victory, so that's how it becomes a victory. yes, sir. >> thank you for a very interesting discourse. my question is, brings us back to madison and jackson. jackson during madison's presidency was a rising star militarily and prettily in

the -- politically in the indian wars and in 1814 in new orleans. what was the real relationship? what did madison really think about jackson during that time and later? >> well, i'm glad you added that because i think his opinion changes. i think early on like the ore -- the other great virginians sort of the older jefferson, mad and also monroe who's the youngest of them, they're alarmed by jackson. they sort of think, jeez, who is this guy? at one point i believe it was monroe thought of sending jackson as minister to russia. [laughter] and jefferson, you know, off in monticello he writes he'll give you a war in this six weeks, you know? what are you thinking of? [laughter] and there is that sort of feeling of, gee, loose cannon.

but by the time they're all retired and by the time jackson is president and monroe is the last surviving great, great virginian, he sees jackson's nationalism during the nullification crisis as something that he endorses. and he has a young friend who's the son of his old philadelphia landlady. jackson's private secretary. this guy's madison's pipeline to jackson. so they're in touch during the whole nullification crisis, and at least in touch to the extent that, you know, jackson knows that madison is in his corner. i mean, if they see this whole challenge in really exactly the same way. and madison even feeds -- another person working for

jackson is edward livingston. and he writes the jackson's message which says i'm not going to let this go forward. and madison is in touch with edward livingston. they knew each other, you know, back to the 1790s. so by the time jackson is old and madison is much older or, they've sort of, they've sort of found a way to fuse. um, are we done? >> [inaudible] >> okay. well, thank you so much. [applause] >> this event was hosted by the national archives in washington d.c. for more information visit archives.gov. >> give me a little bit of the history of the charlotte's writers club? >> it was founded in 1932, so that makes it one of the -- the

oldest arts organizations in north carolina. i don't know if we're the oldest, but one of the oldest. and it started off, i think, a little bit more of a social club, a reading club for lovers of literature. and then it's just evolved over time, so it's going to be 90 years old -- or, no be -- is that right? 90 years old next year. >> what is the focus of the club? >> well, we have a variety of focuses. we want to be a support group for writers, so we offer workshops, contests. we meet once in -- once a month during the academic year and listen to presentations by established writers, and we want to offer resource and networking for writers, but we also have members who are publishers, editors, people who love reading or literacy, we're advocates for literacy as well. we have poets, playrights have been produced, but we also have a number of young people who are just starting out who haven't

published anything. i like the fact that it's very eclectic. we have journalists, we have mystery writers, i have a friend who writes zombie and vampire novels, and you have academic poets, historians, a little bit of everything. um, and i think that's wonderful. it's not an academic group particularly, although we have, certainly, academic people in it. but we have people who write bestsellers and so on. and then charlotte's an interesting place because it's, um, a large city, but it also has different kinds of communities, ethnic communities and different kinds of groups, so that makes it fascinating. we have a lot of critique groups, and that's one of the things we offer to writers. i would guess maybe as many as half of our writers belong to a critique group, and these are typically four to six writers in a group, and it might be a novel group or a science fiction group or poetry, um, short stories,

children's lit rur, young -- literature, young adult, and you get to go with these people, and you read each other's work. writing is a very lonely kind of enkever. you do that by yourself, but you want to go out and interact with other writers and get feedback before you send to it the publisher, so we offer a lot of that. we offer opportunities for new writers to connect can people, get a mentor, join a critique group and listen to these presenters come in. we have a number of great writers who come in to talk about their writing. they read from it, and then they talk about how they wrote, they answer questions about publishing. we have the man coming at our september meeting, kevin morgan watson, is the founder and editor of press 53 which is one of the leading independent publishers in north carolina. and he's going to talk about getting published with an independent press which is a little bit different than some of the mainstream. the novelist, susan hassler,

who's coming in october has published with a mainstream publisher, so she can talk about that. and so we try to offer a lot for our members. >> booktv's focus on charlotte, north carolina, continues all weekend. next, an interview with the president of the charlotte writers' club, david rad slip. >> for more information on booktv's 2011 cities tour, visit c-span.org/local content. >> you've been watching booktv, 48 hours of book programming beginning saturday morning at 8 eastern through monday morning at 8 eastern. nonfiction books all weekend, every weekend right here on c-span2. >> here is a look at some of the programs coming up on c-span2. next, "the communicators" explores google's bin