to teach to other countries? >> that could be a sequel, but the strategic manhunts, imagine very -- are almost as old as civilized warfare but after the battle and 331 b.c. alexander pursued, he defeated darius' army but he did not consider the victory complete until he captured the persian emperor darius and chased him from mosul in northern iraq all the way to the eastern border of the persian empire. similarly the romans spent 20 years after the second pns for a chasing hannibal because they feared hannibal so much, so even in the 1640s, the virginia colonial militia chased, and i can pronounce -- his name is about 20 letters. i can pronounce his name or the tribe, but a tribal chieftain in southern virginia that they feared. they spent two years chasing him. ..

>> adding a strategic perspective to all the stories coming to you think i really grounded your? in other words come you might've been criticized for running a super coffee novel based on to stress? >> that's an interesting question. i mean, my doctorate is in political science. you can take the boy out of the

academia. you can't entirely take the academia out of the boy. same thing my career has been in policy for the last 15 years that it might be difficult to think of things. it might be difficult for me to think of things in pure entertainment passions without taking what is the policy to be learned? but i argue a broader point that i don't think that policy writing needs to be dry, needs to be dull, especially when you read about history. especially episode such as this that has been sort of lost that i think there is real value in showing a cotton hoodie between the men who went 200 miles into mexico after geronimo or 100 miles behind enemy lines in the philippines to capture adequate alto with the teams that went 180 miles into pakistan. but there is much more continuity and the roots of our military heritage and some of our pre-strategic problems are much deeper than we tend to think of in the moment today.

and with that, thank you very much i guess. [applause] >> this event was hosted by tattered cover bookstore in denver. for more information visit tattered cover.com. >> you should always start with the assumption that when a politician or a ceo is named something, they're not telling you the truth. that they may be telling you the truth, but the burden should be on them to prove it. >> and now on booktv, richard tranter recounts the life of the

fourth american president james madison. mr. brookhiser examines his influence in the u.s. constitution, collaboration and the federalist papers on the development of the republican party and is commanded troops during the war of 1812. it's a little less than an hour. >> good afternoon, everyone. i'm the national archives experience and i'd like to welcome the law and are good rant from c-span two the special constitution day program. let's see, today is national archives are celebrating the 224th birthday of the united states constitution with a talk on james madison who was father of the constitution here we are honored today to have as our special guest speaker to preeminent historian and senior editor for national review, richard brookhiser.

mr. brookhiser has been writing about politicians, living and dead enough for most rest of his life. disperse an antiwar protest was a cover story in national review in 1970 when he was 15 years of age. he went to work for the magazine full-time in 1977 and has been there ever sends. in 1997 he began writing a column for the new york observer. and it's written for many other magazines from the "atlantic monthly" to cosmopolitan, covering everything from the fall of communist and to monica lewinsky. for a short time he wrote speeches for vice president george h. debbie bush and in 2008 president george w. bush awarded him the national humanities medal and the white house their money. in 1996, he published his first biography, founding father, rediscovering george washington. for more books on the founders all appeared here and two thumbs rediscovering george washington and rediscovering alexander hamilton, both by michael patton brought cast on pbs.

in 2004 at 2005, mr. brookhiser was historian curator of alexander hamilton, the man who made a hundred america, which was an exhibit of the new york historical society in 2005 received an honorary doctorate degree from washington college. please join me in welcoming, richard tranter three to the national archives. [applause] >> thank you comments for that introduction and thank you for coming. can everybody hear? okay, james madison was clearly on the first ring of the founding fathers, but maybe we shortchanged him a little bit. i am sure everyone in this room is carrying pictures of washington and jefferson. because you dollar bills or quarters and nickels. and probably a fair number have alexander hamilton pictures

because people have 10-dollar bills. are there any high rollers with ben franklin on the hundred? i promise you, no one has madisons built. they gave him the $5000 bill. between grover cleveland on 1009 salmon p. chase on the 10,000. so that's not a very good place. but we do honor him as the father of the cost to ship and there is no higher honor than not. and i want to talk about that this morning. i think he had another child almost as important, equally likely. i want to talk about that child as well. the way i want to do it is read first chapter of my forthcoming book, james madison, which touches on all this point and

just gives you an introduction. and we pick him up on an unlikely day. august 24th, 1814 began as a typical summer day in washington. bright, cloudless promising heat and humidity as the day wore on. for years, james madison and the president had fled high summer in washington and other low-lying cities for the healthy air of this in mind home in virginia piedmont. but this august his presence was required in the capital. america had been at war with britain two years. mr. madisons for had asked congress to declare have been fought along the canadian border against indians on the frontier and on the high sea. now the war was coming home. a week earlier on august 17, 20

british ships carrying 4500 troops had anchored in the baton stick river in maryland only 35 miles away from washing into the southeast. the president has suggested coating the enemy from the start with late troops, but nothing was done. instead, the british depart and made a leisurely stroll up to maryland countries i. perhaps down for baltimore, a booming port, the third-largest in america. secretary of war, john armstrong thought so. it was certainly not come to washington he said. with the double what they do hear? no, no, baltimore police commissary. but now the british had made a left turn. just hours earlier at midnight the president had got a note field. the enemy are in full march for washington to destroy the bridges, remove the records.

when james madison had been a congressman, a quarter-century earlier, he had hoped to the nation's capital from new york to an undeveloped site on the potomac. the new capital was still hardly more than a small town stretching from rock creek in the rest to capitol hill in the east. a ragged part decorated by a few in congress public buildings. the site ancients are aliens. it said the white house was the third president to have lived there. shone on them to madisons score and had spent the dismal last days and and a shell inside the construction. thomas jefferson and madison loved brand bike virginia transportation house hosting and ran it dinners for congressman diplomat takes to, excellent

line and a sparkling conversation. madisons white house was grander yet thanks to his wife dolly, who brightened it with banquets and soirées, red velvet curtains and green channel anna macaw. now, a little before 8:00, the morning of august 24th, a message came to this republican palace from general william wayne or, commander of the potomac military district. it was addressed to john armstrong, secretary of war that the president the chandra wanted advice as fast as possible. then assume wonder the headquarters at the navy yard. the navy yard was a mile south of time and easter branch of the potomac now called the anacostia river. there is a bridge for the 11th street bridge is now.

all morning madison conferred with officers and cabinet secretaries who came and went. the three most important represented all the types that the president typically finds about 10 in the crisis. those who might help, those who want and those who can't. james monroe, secretary of state was a revolutionary war veteran who is known not to medicine for decades. he had quarreled with him and reconciled with him. he was the man who would sunk the midnight warning about the british marks on the capital and he has thrown himself into the effort to defend them. he had talent and energy and had decided to surf madison. johns are strong coming after veteran of the revolutionary war had been appointed secretary of war six months after hostilities had begun to retreat the disaster.

and a year and a half on the job, yet cleared out at blood and promoted fresh faces. but he had also fallen out with the president. he disliked madison personally disagreed strategically, ignoring madisons suggestions to hit the enemy as soon as the man did and focusing the attention on baltimore. armstrong had talent and energy and had decided on august 1814 to use neither on madison's behalf. the men responsible for the capital's defense was william winder, a 39-year-old former lawyer who had in the army for only two years. she had gotten his present assignment in july, largely because he was the governor of maryland's nephew. he had been unseasonably busy with the letters, consultations and demands which crowded upon

d. can more easily be conceived and described he wrote. yet yet accomplish nothing. he had no talent at all. attack word reached the nadir they're making for maryland, a village north east of the capital. it was a gap in the hills and a short rates out of the eastern branch i've mastered the navy yard for the stream is narrow. it was the natural root for anyone attacking washington from the east to take. munro rode off to alert whatever american troops were already there and winder followed with reinforcements. armstrong came to the navy yard only after monroe and winder last. madison asked him if he had any advice to give. he didn't, but added that the battle would be between american militia and british regulars, the former would be beaten.

madison suggested that armstrong really should take part in the coming engagement. express to him my concern and surprise that the reserve he showed was how madison recalled it. armstrong answered that if madison added proper, he would go up to peer at the president to sense the importance of the coming engagement even if the secretary of war did not decided to write to bladensburg with his attorney general, richard rush. he borrowed a set of pistols and since the source and they went name, a second round set off. james madison was 62 years old. he had never heard a shot fired in anger. he was a small man, just over five feet tall, just over 100 pounds and basically one. all his life he was subject to what he called billy of the tax, upset stomach and bowels and

attack resembling epilepsy of suspending the intellectual functions. he had talent in any key and space. he was smarter than monroe, armstrong and winder put together, smarter than jefferson, perhaps even smarter than adams. over a lifetime of public service, he'd put his mind, forget to shoulder, to the wheel, reading, writing, speaking and thinking, driving himself so hard that he often undermined his already not robust constitution. that madison was not a warrior. two years earlier, the day of war was declared he made himself ridiculous by answering the war in eb department in a little round hat and hitchcock a. a crude attempt to become a military leader by dressing like one. it is arguable that some of the contemporaries argued that madison had represented john calhoun lacked the commanding

talents, that he was not by nature and executive. but that morning, he was chief executive and commander-in-chief. moore was five miles away and he wrote to need it. he and the rest of the road, which is still called bladensburg road, overtaking american units as they went. after an hour in the saddle, they came down a hill alongside an orchard and towards the bridge that led over the eastern branch to bladensburg made and only street and spec houses. and american horsemen waved them back. the president and the attorney general had written ahead of their own frontlines. the british were already entry in the towns the opposite direction. binder, monroe and armstrong were posted on the hill they had just descended to the rear. madison and rush broke that towards them. it was now about 1:00. there were 7000 americans on or near the field, a mixture of

militia in regular plus 500 sailors who were still marching with kim and from the yard. more than enough to beat that the british if they were well-positioned and while that. if the americans crumbled here however, there is nothing to stop the enemy from taking the capital and perhaps president and his cabinet as well. the americans had been arranged in three lights, too close to the bladensburg ridge, a third a mile back. munro had taken charge of treason of the dispositions of the last minute, not to advantage. people withdrew troops in the field where they had no cover. binder was frantic, unable to make decisions or give orders. madison asked armstrong if he had made decisions or he given any orders. the secretary of war answered that he had not. i remarked, wrote madison, that

he might offer some a i remarked, wrote madison, that he might offer some advice. armstrong was not the only passive aggressive personality outside bladensburg that morning. madison and armstrong were about to winder for a last-minute consultation. muskets and artillery were already firing back and forth across the stream, spooked the president's worst rear at an plunged so that madison could not take part in the conversation. when the secretary of war and the general were done speaking, madison asked armstrong if he had offered any advice. armstrong replied that he hadn't and that the arrangements appear to be as good as circumstances admitted. what john armstrong said was true. the american arrangements for the battle of bladensburg were as good as the circumstances, which included the abilities and deficiencies of the commanders in the abilities and deficiencies that the man who had given them their jobs and kept in their admitted.

the term was found to. now the battle for capital would play itself out. the courage james madison showed on the morning of the battle of bladensburg is what first prompted me to write about him. it was moral courage even more than physical. he did not put on a hat and a concave. he put himself at the point of contact. on a bad day, it was likely to get worse. he chose to see what was happening in to face the consequences of his actions. but the war of 1812 is not what people most associate with madison. his most famous for his role in producing the kinds to touche and. madison was called father of the constitution during his lifetime and has borne the title of reasons. it's a misleading title is taken to bluntly. madison was only one of seven

virginia delegates to the constitutional convention of 1787, one of 55 overall and did not get exactly the document he wanted. as the convention wrapped up, he worried in a letter to his friend jefferson in paris at the constitution with its national object or prevent the local mischief, which everywhere excite disgust. every man beside madison made a central contributions to the constitution for the pfeifer ratification into its first and most important amendment. the constitution was written in its final form by governor morris, the delicate from pennsylvania. a better dressed than economic been made. madison's greatest writing win two in his arguments can't explain them in praising the constitution and the federalist paper. but the office area of that project was alexander hamilton, who picked the authors, madison

and john jay in addition to himself and her three fifths of the 85 papers. the strongest argument for ratifying the constitution with the approval of george washington, signaled by his presence at the convention and its client support afterwards. madison understood that washington was the heavyweight champion of the american public life over which is why he's stuck by him like a trainer from the planning stages of the convention to the early days of washington's presidency. finally, the resistance of the constitution's opponents, like madison's enemy, patrick henry, obliged the constitution supporters to offer her son day as authors had neglect due to provide a bill of rights. no monotonous and played a central role at every stage in the cost to touche and spurs. he was present before, at and

after the creation. he was a delegate to the annapolis convention of 1786, which called the convention in philadelphia a year later. when the philadelphia convention met in 1787, he arrived the first out of town or to show up with an agenda in mind. he never missed a session and he spoke more often than any other delegate, except the flashing morris and james wilson, and other pennsylvanian. he always comes forward ruud delegate georgia, the best informed command on any point in debate. thanks to the federalist papers, published in new york, he was a player in the pfeifer ratification in that state and he led the pro-constitution forces in virginia. political reality in jefferson's urging persuaded madison to accept the idea of a bill of rights. and as a member of the first congress, he turned himself into that project with your eristic

energy, sorting the proposals of earnest idealists and secret saboteurs into something like the first 10 amendments we have today. plus amendment 27, which regulates congressional pay raises, proposed in 1789, but not ratified until 1992. madison was also the first historian on the constitutional convention as he helped shape the document, he worked to shape the future's view of it. every day the convention met, he posted himself in front of the head table in independence hall. and the favorable position for hearing of the past, i noted that was read from the chair or spoken by the members and losing not a moment unnecessarily between nature and mint and reassembling of the convention, i was enabled to write out my daily note. madison's notes, the most complete left by in a delicate

have been graced for later historians ever since. madison earned his paternity of the comp to touche in. he was a devoted and anxious parent for he believed the happiness of the people great, even in its infant he can possibly the cause of liberty throughout the world were staked on what he and his colleagues have made. but the constitution was not the only subject in a gross madison's relentless mind and in the late 1780s were not his only active years. he was a young man unlike many hypochondriacs he lived to be a very old one and he devoted his long thought to analyzing an array of issues. in 1776, each 25, madison flight to amman the virginia declaration of rights from guaranteeing fullest toleration to free exercise. they rounded nature, not the

permission of state. toleration is a gift from a truly free exercise their right. it was a statement of principles. madison principles was not an act to until law until the virginia statute or religious freedom, written by jefferson with past 10 years later. jefferson was so proud of the slot that he mentioned on his tombstone, it was madison who pay shippers and philosophy fishing and family. i flattered himself after he had exceeded that we've extinguished forever the ambitious hope of making laws for the human mind. in 1791, after the constitution was ratified, madison back down to rethink some of the most important debates he ate just one. in the federalist, yet argued

that the very size of the united states and the complexity of its new federal system with a true celebrity since the wind factions would find it hard to seize power. now he decided that another guarantee was necessary and late and public opinion, which was stopped stopped stopped a new series of essays, published like the federalist a new series of essays, published like the federalist and the newspapers, he teased that the consequences of this idea, drowning in poll data, we understand the power of public opinion that we often doubt how enlightened it is. but in the early 1790s, regularly consulting public opinion was a new concept. many of madison's colleagues, including washington and hamilton have little use for it. they thought the people should rule when they voted and left of the others do their best until the next election. madison windstar world record

existed. madison was consumed with questions of foreign peace. he had to be. the bastille fell during his first year in the first congress in the war was touched off by the french revolution continue through the war of 1812. the united states began its national life and the shadow of the world were as violent as world wars one and two, longer than both of them put together in this ideological as the cold war. it was ironic that madison asked for war in 1812 and found himself on a battlefield two years later for he feared war with the enemy of liberty and atreides jefferson secretary of state, dennis president to avoid it. surely he believe trade was a more powerful weapon than arms. yet when he felt america's honor was compromised, he chose to

fight. both his attitudes, the disposition to pacifism and attaching us about america's pride in its position in the world wines to later american history. and as long retirements, almost 20 years, madison grappled with questions of slavery and union. he heard the coming of the civil war decades before fort sumter. his solutions to the problem of slavery were worthless, a pathetic case of intellectual and moral failure. his position on the problem of union would help solve the problem of slavery. that madison is more than the father of the constitution or the other intellectual constructs. he's the father politics. he lived in his head, but his head was always turned with making his cherished thought rio. in a free country, the road to reality runs through politics.

madison spent as much time politicking and thinking and use equally good at it. he did what came naturally to him. preparation, persuasion, agenda setting, committee work, parliamentary maneuvering. he grew up in a family as large as an oyster bed, good training for a future legislator. he worked out what he did not come naturally to him. public speaking, campaigning. his voice was both harsh and weak. time and again the notetakers of debates he participated in less blanks in his remarks were simply gave up because mr. madison could not be distinctly heard. yet when circumstances required it, he debated patrick henry. he debated james monroe and the open air in a snowstorm so bitter he got frostbite on his nose. he won those debates.

when he found a political chore, yet so it could not do it. he was not too proud to work with men or women who could. dolly madison was more than a hostess. she was a political wife, america's first. half a campaign type team in austin the better half. likewise, madison worked with washington, profiting from his charisma and judgment and the table 10 profiting from his -- when he was not alarmed by it. he worked with jefferson, visionary philosopher and politician echelon for 40 years. he consented to learn something about money from his younger colleague, albert callison come a swiss immigrant who spoke with a french accent but knew more about america's finances than most natives. madison was a great man who is not afraid of assisting or deferring to other great than, another legacy of his taste in

life. he also worked with the less than great. hatchet men and facets, snoops and spies. on one occasion he turned a blind eye to a mob. they do the work of politics, too. they are part of the game. politics has its own institutions and madison invented a few that have lasted as long as the constitution. he helped found america's first political party, the republicans later they changed the democrats, the modern gop organization. today's democrats host jefferson jackson day dinners to commemorate their origins. they might better call than jefferson madison since their party began in 1791, when madison joined jefferson on a trip to new york and new england , supposedly collecting biological specimens for the american philosophical society

actually collect and allies with themselves. the first party newspaper, the national gazette is personalities and found ideological ax, the public, national review, fax and msnbc perform the same task today. he recruited the paper's first editor, philip for now, an old college chum who dabbled in poetry. he gave a job as a translator in the state department and in his free time for no snack table 10 in washington. madison's insistent publicity flowed naturally from his interest in public opinion. such a powerful force could not be allowed to develop randomly or to be molded by liberty's enemies. if enlightened public opinion was a bulwark of freedom, then

later dismissed labor ceaselessly to enlighten or manipulated. madison was a popular one of the first american political machines, the virginia dynasty. america had revolted against george the third in the house of hanover, but the dynastic temptation is always strong. john adams, second president and the only founder president of the son saw his oldest, john quincy adams become the sixth president. but the adams is one popular one turner's. between then stretch the virginia dynasty. two terms of jefferson, two terms madison, two terms as monroe. 24 years of government a neighbors and ideological soulmates. one of the iron laws of politics is what goes around comes around. throughout his career, madison was beset at enemies and suppose that friends, building the same dark arts to deep right is.

fortunately for him, he was generally skilled enough to be in back. but another iron law of politics is that you can't win them all. here is cannon fire protection, especially if they died beyond through the purity of inaction or stand, but a law hall politics takes at least some of the shine off almost everyone. madison had an unusually good record when it came to winning elections, not quite so good when it came to setting up issues than men. for years with the many achievements as well as rigidities and blunders from demonizing people in countries to mishandling his services he is. we pay much less attention to james madison, father of politics and teachings not, father of the constitution. that is because politics is

suspect to call on television in youtube, the daily per walk on the "huffington post" and that dreadful ports. surely our founders and randomized after some conductor, more solid, more inspiring then. they did. but they all knew and madison understood that you than any of them today deals come to life and dozens of political trend actions every day, some of those transactions are pretty. you can understand this and try to work with this knowledge or you can look away. but ignoring politics will not make it stop. it will simply go on without you and sooner or later happen to you. dolly payne todd and the first excitement of meeting a possible sewer, her future husband, told a friend agree that the madison

had asked to see me this evening. all of us live from madison's acquaintances forever changes on this contrast. he was mad figure in the little guy. the contrast is a moral dimension, too. james madison was a great man who helped build a republic. he was also an ambitious and sometimes small word man who stumped, spoke, counted votes, pulled wires, scratched back some steps in. he would not be afraid of the contrast. for his deepest thinking told him that the builders of liberty had to know and sometimes use the materials of passion and self-advancement. before is the continuation of politics by other means, it makes sense to introduce madison on the battlefield, even a dubious one. americans ignore him there, too because we divide our words into two categories. those are the bad pestering

washington's crossing, pickett's charge, d-day him those we ignore his unseemly or botched or both. but our present experience of asking us and in iraq may eliminate the war of 1812. they were miscalculations and disasters in mr. madison's work, but there were also moments of valor, disciplined and learning from mistakes, even at bladensburg. madison wrote to bladensburg more than 60 years into his life, 40 years into his career. let us begin at the beginning and the outtakes on from there. and now take your questions. thank you. [applause] anybody? i mean, that's a lot of stuff i

stated, but i think those are the -- >> would you talk a little bit about the two madisons. it is madison the nationalist and madison in the state three-person. >> well, what you are alluding to -- did everyone hear the question, by the way? matos and the nationalist and madison to a straight person. madison had a very long career and at different points in his career, he either held or expect you to hold power at different levels of government. and i say this in no spirit of criticism of 10, but i think the importance he attached to the nation or to the power stayed could shift depending on where james madison would stand in and what his base was.

now, what makes this more than just what politicians do, you can call it opportunism, but also what they have to do. you have to start from where they are, not from where you are. it's how they tend to see things and think of things. the madison did see as the constitution was being written and defended. and he revealed i think the first time and the fabulous papers that he didn't see the very complexity of the new system of government that had been created in philadelphia could work as a bulwark of liberty. the fact that you had a president, a judiciary, a congress. the fact that congress had a senate which was chosen one way and the house of representatives chosen another way and then the fact that all these branches were pitted against gore stood alongside the state. the fact that this complication was a force with a guarantee of

liberty because it meant that no maligned faction could sweep across the whole country. it was like an obstacle course. and not so coarse abridges government. so when we see that in madison's own life, when we see him shaking his talents back and forth from one of these branches to another, in a way he is and that he needs the theory. you know, the theory he developed in the federalist papers. and you know, if one were ill disposed, one could say, you know, he is changing his colors and some of his enemies did say that at the time. i don't think i'm being overly charitable to say that he really -- he really figured out how the new system would work in this and try to take advantage of it for his other clothes, which were both political and

also ideological. yes, sir. >> looking at the period from 1789 till his death in the could you tell us more about his thoughts and actions regarding slavery? >> well, this is -- this is not an inspiring topic. he, unlike some founders who were to end slavery in their state. some states had very few slaves at the time of the revolution. massachusetts had very few. pennsylvania had very few. some northern states had outlawed. new york had a lot of slaves. and in 1785, one of hamilton's palace, alexander hamilton and 31 other new yorkers founded a

group called the new york manumission society. in their long-range goal is to end slavery stated your. now it took until 1827, long after hamilton was dead, madison was the life. it took 42 years for this to happen. but it happened because some leaders decided to begin the effort and begin the ascent stick with it. so eventually slavery new york was in it. madison did nothing of the kind himself in virginia. george washington, another dear friend of madison, i'd say about 10 years in the middle of his early life, washington freed all slaves of foil. madison didn't do that. and he had some younger

idealistic friends, also virginians, who had freed their own slaves and were disappointed they had not done so. he had a younger wife who is going to him. so he didn't have a free hand. a tally was much younger to james madison, much younger and martha washington was younger than george. in fact, maybe a year older than george. so when george washington frees office is coming you notice he's not leaving martha for years and years and years to live without. but madison would know that and i am sure that's the reason he didn't. his hope was a fantastic one. he was president of the american colonization society. liberia was an american project to take freed slaves and ship them to africa. and there was a lot of idealism behind the.

abolitionists came to criticize it very early because they thought it was a way of dodging issue. it's also a possibly keeping the price of slaves for and also getting freed slaves out of the country. you know, we take them off to africa won't have to deal with this anomaly of having free slaves among us. so it was controversial. what wasn't controversial was it wasn't working very well. an english lady, young english lady named harriet martin of the city of madison. at the end of his life the year before he died and she talked with him about a lot of things. she admired him greatly. but she said the slavery thing to be preoccupying him in that liberia was the solution that fee. she wrote in her account of her traveling america how a mind such as hate could draw comfort from the sewers.

i couldn't see. and she gives the figures of how many american in liberia and at what the slave population was and how fast its rate of increase was. there's no way these two guys were ever going to intercept. i think the best thing that can be said for madison is his position on unions, which is formally a distinct issue, but of course slavery also comes into it. and every seediness impulse in america from the federalists to the war of 1812, through the nullification controversy and write it to the other war is inflect it by the slavery question. you know, the fabulous and 1812th field maybe we've got to leave a country where the south has not horlock and similarly south carolina an altercation crisis and the whole south civil war feel that their

peculiar institutions under attack. so the issue of union and its union has in many ways a surrogate for the battery over slavery. now, madison was soon i'll have slight au for neediness. he had written in virginia resolved in 1798, when the federalist party seem to be going wild passed the alien act in the sedition act and it looks like they were imposing almost dictatorship on america. that's what madison object is feared. so they wrote resolutions aimed at states had the power to interpose in the federal government was doing something unconstitutional. but madison at the old man always said i meant the states plural. i never meant an individual states had such power. and what i meant was actually happened in 1798 that states would raise the alarm and then

we could throw the bums out at the next election which is what happened in 1800. he always says that the model for how this should be. i was not talking about secession. he said if you want to have a revolution, that never goes away. but that's outside of the constitution. you know, you can smuggle it into the constitution. things are that i just had to put it all down and leave. that's not what southerners were saying. they were saying we have a right to secede and madison overset no, no you don't. and so, i do wonder it made out. i see is both irresistible and foolish to ask him how would 109-year-old madison have voted in the election of 1860? and i conclude that for lincoln because lincoln was trying to keep slavery out of the territories and madison would have denied the federal government could do such a

thing. you wouldn't have voted for breckenridge. or it can just a southerner. he might've voted for douglas. douglas was jacksonian and madison was sort of close to jackson at the end of his life. he probably would've voted for a, who was the tennessee unionist, whose running mate published one of madison last climax in favor of the union. this was that word ever it and the bell every ticket is kerry three states. they finished fourth in the popular vote. wasn't very affect it. but i suspect that's who he would've voted for. and if he lived to see the crash, i can't imagine him joining in secession but that would've just been the ruin of all his life's work. so that's a very roundabout answer, but i'm afraid your question requires that.

because it's a painful and complex subject and madison's course through it is way over to him to try and understand that and figure it out and follow him. it's certainly not entirely honorable. it's in part on her pulling think the result would have been for the country into debt, which is a horrible civil war, that the union being the tories. yes, sir. >> sorry, i didn't realize we had two makes. >> i'm actually more interested in maybe the more prosaic side of his service as president. i mean, you talked about a man who had a long political career and you noted that in politics over the course of a long season, no one has to pass in. humans done, you lose some. so in his eight years, he talked about the two great events that people associated with in the

constitution and your war and his performance there. but he served a long time. what over the years -- what were his political -- lois' political standing in position in congress? and what were some of the more notable domestic or everyday political accomplishments and failures in the course of his service? >> sure, i think we can identify some issues they run right through his career. one of them as expansion. even when he's in the continental congress, when he's in his 20s in the revolutionary war hasn't been won yet, you think that how can america get weaker? you know, he has his eyes on them is sippy valley back in the early 1780s. you know, he sees this is the way he wants america to go. he hopes it will go. he expects it to go. he wants our diplomacy to be oriented towards the pier

louisiana, france had given louisiana to spain after the seven years war, said they were western neighbors and madison was always trying to think, how to make it the right to navigate the mississippi? how can we get louisiana? had to make a florida? he's very keen on getting florida. actually one thing he does as president is he simply takes part of it. the florida panhandle originally ran all the way to mississippi to the east bank of the mississippi. so that rich was the westernmost extent of florida because panhandle just ran right along the coast to mississippi. and madison as secretary of statecomments justice and and secretary of state and president tries to find it. he tried getting france to bullies think you give it to us.

and meantime he tried all sorts of ways to get this. and finally he's president and some americans attack a spanish in baton rouge and he just tells the army to go in and take it. congress isn't even in session. you know, he's just like does it. so you know, seek and you shall find i think was his attitude. and also the reason of jefferson also shares the same holds for expansion and westward expansion. that's one of the reasons they get louisiana and that's a very complicated story it has to do with napoleon, for one reason they got it as they were looking for it. i mean, they were hoping for some pain. when the surprising opportunity comes up, they jumped on it. so that is one continuity in his life. at least our foreign policy issues, the foreign-policy place at april and domestic politics in the early republic. and there i think we can see

that madison was consistently and also frink file and the fabulous with the referrers. hamilton, adams and the other fabulous eric hamilton more than nonsense word anglophiles and finger foods. and madison is a francophile during the revolutionary war, before the french revolution. the french revolution makes anything more of an affiliate. he thinks this is a great thing. this is a victory for liberty. he doesn't be allowed on the french revolution too many x and until napoleon. napoleon he can see this is military tested. this is a bad way for a republic to go. it will and the french republic and it does. but he still even so, i feel that is always willing to cut napoleon more strack on transplant and is going to british. and there are many maneuvers

back and forth here the whole history of america versus britain versus france and then how it plays in american politics is very complex, but is madison's default position as well the british are the ones who are always freely under teo. you know, france may be, that the british were impressing the british to a forth sumner frontier and stirring up indians, the british invaded virginia and chased my friend jeffrey sent out with on a cello is relate this mom grudge list. and so, the war of 1812 and a very important sense it's all right, let's just do it finally. let's just have it out. this has been going on for years. enough already. and you know, at the end,

technically it's a grow off that we declared the jury. so that's how it becomes a big tree. yes, sir. >> thank you for a very interesting discourse. my question brings us back to madison and jackson. jackson during madison president was a rising star militarily and politically in the indian wars and in 1814 in new orleans. what was the real relationship? selected madison really think about jackson? >> during that time and later. >> well, i'm glad you added that because it anticipated changes. early on like the other great virginians consorted the older jefferson and madison and also monroe who is the youngest of them. they are alarmed by jack sim. this sort of thing jeeves, who is this guy?

at one point, i believe it was monroe thought of sending jackson as minister of russia. and jefferson coming in now, off the monticello rates to give you a war in six weeks. what are you thinking of? and there is that sort of feeling of jeeves, the scan in. but by the time they are all retired and by the time jackson was president in monroe is the last surviving is the last surviving is the last surviving is the last surviving use the of nullification crisis system being he endorses. and he has a young friend who was son of his his old philadelphia when a man named travis, whose jack's private secretary. so this guy is madison's pipe went to jackson. so they are in touch during the

whole nullification crisis. and at least in touch to the extent that jackson knows that madison was in his corner and madison knows that jackson knows that, i mean they see this whole challenge from south carolina and really exactly the same way. and madison even feeds another person who is edward living in. and he write jackson and essays, which says i'm not going to let this go forward. and madison is in touch with that with livings and. back to the 1790s. so by the time jackson is sold and madison is much older, and a sort of found a way to fuse. >> are we done? okay, thank you so much.

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