of that cooperation. . . >> thigh can't exist for a millisecond without the cells within the cells of the body, and now our bodily cells cannot survive without them. that's just the beginning really of the complexity really of what we call a human being. >> you can watch this and other

programs online at booktv.org. >> next on booktv, in his book, black and tired, anthony bradly applies christian teach tionz to the subjects of race, politics, contemporary culture, globalization, and education. this is about an hour. >> good morning. thank you for joining us here at the heritage foundation. as director of lecture and seminars, it's a pleasure to welcome you and those who join us on the heritage.org website on all occasions. we ask everyone in-house to make the last check cell phones are turned off. it's appreciateed as we record the event. we welcome questions from the internet viewers at

speaker@heritage.org, and we'll post the program within 24 hours for your reference. introducing the special guest this morning is jennifer marshall. she's director of policy studies and our richard and hellen devos center for civil society. she expwroafer sees the education, welfare, marriage, the family, and religion in civil society. she also manages familyfacts.org, online catalog of social science research related to family and religious practice. prior to joining us here, she worked on cultural industry issues and was director of family studies. please join me in welcoming jennifer marshall. jennifer? [applause] >> thank you, john, and thanks to all of you for being here for our book event on "black and tired" by dr. anthony bradly.

a few days ago, hurricane irene pushed back the official dedication of the new memorial to dr. martin luther king, but the silver lining in that hurricane is the delay appropriately exes tends our -- extends our focus on dr. king's civil rights legacy, and the work of those who since him strive to make all god's children free at last. as the title conveys, "black and tired" he's not satisfied with the progress to date. as the essays in the book show with titles like "devaluing the family," "hip hop's god talk," he's a scholar with wide ranging interest. his undergraduate degree in

clemson is in science, and he has a dock rat from west minister seminary in theology. today, he teaches at king's college, a christian liberal art school in new york city. his first back was eliminating black theology, the bible and latest experience in america. his laitest book looks at one race to teach us truths about humanity. our views of human nature shapes our public policy. it's worth pausing to consider what it means to be fully human. please join me in welcoming dr. anthony as he helps us do that today. [applause] >> thank you, jennifer, for the

invitation. i'm delighted to be at the heritage foundation for this event. for years, i often say because i'm a nerd, you know, growing up i watched c-span quite a bit and saw think tanks, heritage foundation, and i wondered if one day i'll be standing in front of this backdrop. with the foundation. i'm honored to be here. thank you for the invitation. my connection to the foundation goes back some years. i have, with great honor, and boasting, have used a lot of the work of robert rector in my own research and writing. his work has been particularly helpful for me in terms of my own attempt to think differently with political and economic liberation for

african-americans. the united states is an incredible place. it stands out among other nations in the world, and i recently had an opportunity to be reminded how great this place is at my family reunion in alabama. escambia county is the county that my family's plantation was, and so i stand here before you as a descendent of slaves from the bradley plantation in escambia county alabama. a slavery reconstruction, the jim crow civil rights movement, this is my family's story of

struggling and fighting for humanity and freedom in a context, in a culture that was saturated with injustice and dehumanization. that's so amazing about this narrative, this story, is that not only does my family know where the plantation is in escambia county, we now own it. there are members of my family currently living on it as free people who have property rights to it codified and protected by the rule of law. now, how many countries in the world is it possible to have a group of people who were once slaves on a piece of property, a few generations later actually own the property that they were leaving on, they were being

enslaved on? this makes this place absolutely amazing. yes, we notice the progress in our country by having a black family in the oval office. there are not too many countries around the world where you would see sub dominant cultures rise to that level, that status, and just a few generations after a movement like the civil rights movement. it's amazing to me and i permly am delighted to think about what is it about this country, what is it about our founding principles that allow someone like myself to be a descendent of slaves, to be standing in front of a group of people, having earned a ph.d., standing in front of this heritage foundation backdrop,

speaking to you about my second book? to me, it's just an amazing narrative about the potential of freedom and liberty and economic empowerment that this country actually offers to those who have the opportunity to take advantage of it. i named my book "black and tired" on purpose. one because i am black -- if you can tell. i want to remain connected to my family, the story of rising to success in spite of traumatic, wounding, and painful experiences in this country. the hopes, issues, dreams, institutions, values, principles that created the conditions that put me here today are being cab

togged -- sabotaged and eroded by those with good intentions, but do not think with the consequences of public policy decisions because they have different views on the human person and human dignity than those who actually structured our government in the first place. while the effects of this anthropology are not immediately seen, the long term effects have been uniquely and harshly experienced among the black underclass, and this makes me tired. tired of those who think putting decisions in the hands of a few people is best in the long run when it is been demonstrated repeatedly in history that concentrating power in the hands of a few people leads to more oppression, not less, and, in fact, this concentration of power, those making decisions, a

few making decisions for the masses, this has been much of the black experience in america, and so, n., i'm black and tired because it seems there's this movement, this energy to reposition african-americans in such a way that few people are making decisions about those masses. it's been exhausting to see the national campaign for the dig any -- dignity of blackness under rosa parks, andrew young, and so on be hijacked by the organizational narcissism we find among government politicians and agencies operating under the delusion that they have the expertise and capacity to solve all of society's problems.

it's exhausting to see the politics of envy undermind this campaign for dignity which seeks to redefine what people deserve by pitting those of varying degrees of wealth against others as if life was a race, as if there was some competition. it's been exhausting to see zero sum economics which poise pes the imagination of those who do not understand the social implications of wealth creation, enough to believe the myth that the only way to wealth is to exploit others. i sit then on the same political island with thomas seoul and walter williams with the understanding that the key

catalyst of the economic liberation of african-americans is inseparateble from honoring the dignity of blackness by guaranteeing opportunities under the law for blacks to be streeted no differently than anyone else. this quality of treatment is sabotaged today by narcissism and entitlement. it's a narcissism that blames others for one's shortcomings and justifies breaking the law and moral norms from entitlements. you owe us say the entitled, but how did we get here? we see today the consequences of a few converging trends. one is the decrease in american religious life, secondly, the erosion of an understanding if human dignity, and third, a focus on the equality of results

instead of the equality of process and this cocktail has been poisonous to the black underclass smg one, the black church is more and more being ignored as an agent of public virtue which has been and had been a blacks' historic functions. the less religion you have in society, the more and more people turn to government to make sense of their lives and to mediate human action. i mean, this was precisely the intention of the communists and socialists was to purge religion from society. human dignity is perverted in ways that forced us to embrace the visions of a few elites who essentially plan and impose their will on the rest of us.

the pursuit of quality of economic results for all has created new pathways for justified injustice. today it's called "people doing their fair share." why, then, does the black underclass continue to struggle so many years after the civil rights movement? martin luther king drept of america where women and men are evaluated on the basis of their character rather than skin color. the fight for equal dignity, however, was derailed by quest of political clout and bling. the goal of equality measured by outcomes sought by means of government directed racial inclusion programs overshadowed the more true sol solidarity

based on widespread recognition of the inherent dignity of all people. beginning in the 1980s, many leadersgan to identify -- began to identify justice on the basis of social cosmetics including how much stuff blacks did or did not have compared to whites. size of homes, number of college degrees, income disperties, law school admission rates, loan approvals, and the like. instead of whether or not blacks are treated as equals in our social structures. equal treatment by our legal institutions may yield unexpected results, but it remains a better measurement of justice than creating results we want. one mid step in the movement beginning in mid-1960s on into

the 1970s was not recognizing that the most successful minority groups in america were those who pursued economic mobility through the marketplace instead of politics. when you look at asian immigrants, the history of jews in america, you see other subdominant cultures who chose the marketplace as a means of social and economic mobility opposed to politics. now, much of the erosion has to do with the role of unking the role of religion in society. the caution in the 1835 reflections on democracy in america, that the pursuit of liberty without religion hurts society because it, quote," isolated people from one another." to concentrate every man's

attention upon himself and lays open the soul to an inordinate love of material gratification." end of quote. in fact, it says, "the main business of religion is to purr my, control, and restrain that excessive and exclusive taste for well being which men acquire in times of equality. religion makes us other regarding." in fact, i've recently said that every black person apprehended for robbing stores in a flash mob should have their court hearing, not in front of a judge, but facing the 30-foot statue facing martin luther king j.r. as hit me memorial site and be asked what would dr. king say to you right now?

i was angry when i saw the footage of young blacks robs convenient stores across america. i was brought to tears. we all need to take a closer look at king's chic led -- chiz led -- chiseled face. the public service announcement about pollution. i'm old enough to remember those. the psa showed cody shedding tears after seeing pollution in america that previously had none. it ended with the tag line "people start pollution. people can stop it." if king were alive today, he might proclaim with the flash mobs that people start them, and people can stop them.

his dream was realized by many african-americans taking full advantage of the opportunities made available through this martyr's quest for justice. did king imagine a few decades after his "i have a dream" speech, a black family would be in the white house not as maintenance or kitchen staff, but as the first family. yes, years after the civil years struggle affirmed black dignity, we have young black people ransacking stores in groups. every time a flash mob lutes its robbing king of his dream. all over america from philadelphia to chicago to here in washington, d.c., young people could be contributing to the common good, but instead they are trading out their dignity for the adrenaline rush of stealing from others.

we will not tolerate that behavior heres says district of columbia mayor vincent grey. he says news coverage of the incident questions whether the robbery could have been miranda morally justified. actually, says the mayor, both morality and law are quite clear. it is wrong to steal from others, and if people do not obey the law, they will be apprehended, arrested, and prosecuted. a trouble aggression of virtue and civil rights, king's dream was one that harmonized morality and law; however, king's dream will never be realized in america as long as this country continues the my tholing that

freedom does not require personal integrity and character. proponents of sociological and psychological theories leads to the lute of stores because they marginalize from mainstream society. this may be true. this may be legitimate feelings. what king taught us, however, is that political and social frustration does not justify breaking the law. perhaps if these disenfranchised youth were more familiar with life under slavely and jim crow or cared about the legacy of civil rights heros like thurgood marshall, rosa parks, john lewis, andy young, and others i mentioned earlier, they could tap into the imagination of an heroic generation formed by the

virtues of religion who pursued public justice by pursuing public virtue. enabling american culture is responsible for this spectacle. a society that does not value forming young people in the ways of prudence, justice, courage, self-control, and the like, why would we be surprised that convenient stores are being robbed by youthful mobs? a society that does not value private property and fosters a spirit of envy and class warfare through wealth redrix, why should we be surprised people don't value someone else's property or to use a more technical term "stuff." radical individualism and moral relativism define the ethics of

our era, and criminal flash mobs expose our progressive failure. as we celebrate king's memorial, we must leapt the fact that the abandonment of virtue is destroying the lives of young black people and underminding the legal and economic catalyst that could end our recession for good. in solidarity with mayor gray i stand in front of king's statue with a new dream that a resurgence of virtue gives rise to a moral and law-abiding citizens. it's in this way that blacks will truly experience the dreams of king and others who died for justice, and unfortunately, we have this gap between religious

life and virtue and those things that make the values and virtues and principles of our country actually work. for example, religious life actually affects education success. a series of 2010 studies in howard universities journal of negro education, one of america's oldest and continuing academic program, noted how church involvement increasing education success in inner cities. in the article titled faith in the inner city, the urban black church and student educational outcomes, dr. brian baret describes the unique contributions black churches play in cultivating blank students in inner cities.

"religious intervening encourages education and practices particularly individuals' commitments to and adoption of the goals and expectations of the group." these are the things conducive to positive educational outcomes. in fact, back in 2009, baret recorded in another article, the religious services, the black-white achievement gap "was eliminated." i'll say that again. the black-white achievement gap was eliminated because students in low performing schools in bad neighborhoods were actively involved in religious life and in religious community. he reports one of the most important advantages of inner city churches is they provide a

community where black stunts are valued both for their academic success and more broadly human human beings being part of a society with promise, with talents to contribute, and from whom success is expected. churches also affirm inner city youth as trusted members of a community that celebrate academic success and the practices that produce it that override the low expectations communicated at school. additionally, he highlights the ways in which black churches because they are equipped to deal with families are standing and encouraging parental education and involvement from the heart as well as providing context where youth can have regular contact with other adults for role modeling and mentoring. baret is not alone. in that article from howard

university, 4,273 black stopts were studied -- students were studied, and it was found that family and religious life, family and religious social capital are the most important predictors for positive student college success, so those students in low performing schools in inner cities, who are involved in religious life outside of the family, it's the second greatest preticker of them actually going to college, and as i said earlier, it eliminates the black-white achievement gap. they conclude students with active religious life involved parents and active social life have greater opportunities and

choices in the future. look at issues like minimum wage, this is a winner. people love to think about the consequences of raising the minimum raise, but i'd like to submit that people don't think about the long term consequences of raising the minimum wage because we live in a world where people act and make decisions based on something called incentives. such an increase actually hurts minorities. it hurts teens. it hurts those without skills in the long run because minimum wage jobs are usually entry level positions filled by employees with limited work experience and few job skills. when the government forces employers to pay their workers more than a job's productivity

demands of employers in order to stay in business, generally respond by hiring fewer hours of low skilled labor. low skilled workers become too expensive to employ creating a new army of permanent part time employees. government wage increases are supported when people forget the money used to cover the increase does not magically appear. it has to come from somewhere. since americans love the best products for the lowest prices, businesses will not likely pass that cost to the wage increase on to consumers in the form of higher prices. they will, instead, reduce the cost by laying off workers with the lowest skills, relocating jobs, or the entire business to another country or skirting the law all together by paying employees under the table.

or by hiring illegal immigrants. university of connecticut professor estimates that a $1 rise in a minimum wage in the current economic environment would reduce teen unemployment opportunities by at least 140,000 jobs. one of the modern manifestations of racist ideology is the assumption that everyone else operates on the basis of incentives except for african-americans. blacks don't think. they simply do what they are told. told where to live. told where to shop. told where they have to send thinker children to -- send their children to school and so on. choice, freedom, preference, options, personal decisions and so on, those are for more sophisticated people with higher level of thinking skills, those

who deserve freedom. often these are called e -- elites, and the rest of us must do what the elites say. elites enjoy their freedoms, but do not really believe others are capable of exercising the same freedoms just yet. they position themselves as surrogate decision makers for others who are not nearly as enlightened as they are. if blacks were considered people with equal dignity, a perspective employee would be free to negotiate her own wage for employment basedded on her honest assessment of her needs, skills, and capacities with a potential employer. offers and counteroffers would be made without the oversight or intervention of surrogate third parties because there would be the expectation of both the

employee and the employer that they know what's best for themselves. if black parents were considered people of equal dignity, they would not have third party elites who do not have their own children in low performing school tell low income minority parentings where they can and cannot put their children. the elites with their magical capacity to process complex knowledge, they always seem to know what's best for everyone. it is, in fact, patriot comprehension. the elites want to remove the decision from the hands of lower people into the hands of people who have greater capacity. now, this was the black experience during slavery and

jim crow when the society was committed to removing black men and women from cultural and economic processes so they were not able to make their own decisions and experience liberation for themselves. keeping african-americans out of the process, removing their power and keeps them from experiencing liberty and under the subjection of others. so political and economic empowerment will only come to african-americans trapped in the underclass when we all recognize that when we take the decisions from the masses and put those into the hands of the few, we undermind people's dignity.

if you believe that people have dignity and capacity for reason and virtue, you will put more and more decisions in their hands. if you believe, however, that some people have superior wisdom more than others as a class, than you will put more and more decisions in the hands of the few who rule over everybody else. this is a de facto cast system. as long as america does not respect the dignity of those of the underclass and stop tieing their shoes for them, our nation is going to go bankrupt. the institutions that built this country are going to erode and be subsided. i long for the day when blacks

are respected enough that their virtue drives the economic and political liberation entitled in what it means to be human, entitling what it means to make those decisions that allow one to pursue the virtues of religious liberty and political liberty and economic liberty. just as parents often remove decisions from their children who are not mature, it is actually unbelievably insulting that we would write public policy that would treat a class of people as if they are perpetual children. this is liberating african-americans from the control of others who sought to make their decisions for them as if they were children, so during

the civil rights movement, you saw men carrying cards that read "i am a man." i'm not a boy. we want to live in a country that treats us as full individuals with capacity and virtue and potential to make those decisions for ourselves and the family that leads to our own political and economic liberation. until then, until that time where those liberties are experienced by those at the bottom where their dignity is honored, i will remain black and tired. thank you very much. [applause]

we'll take questions or comments at this time if you have any questions. yes, ma'am? >> i'm dena bass, and i want to thank jennifer for the invitation, and i appreciate what you say. on most points i agree with you being nationally conservative, a woman of faith, and from the south. i'm from georgia. i understand where you are coming from. my question is where do we, and pardon me to the white people in the room. >> yeah, yeah, this will be a chocolate conversation. [laughter] okay, yeah. >> okay. by in some things i feel like i don't want to give white america a path. i definitely recognize as a black american woman, i have a personal responsibility for everything that i do, and i'm, you know, my mother raised me in such a way that i have home training, so there are things that i will and will not do. >> absolutely. >> but what i don't like as we

have these public conversations, i don't want to give white america a past. you talk about these flash mobs, and those, i believe, those are kids with no home training because there's no way on earth that my mom -- even now approaching 40, there's things my mom says you better not do, and i just don't think about. that is a result of no home training. >> sure, sure. >> basic and simple, but there are kids in this world, little black kids in the world who do feel so angry, they are black, tired, and angry, so how do we have this conversation without giving white america a pass on things that they don't deserve a pass on. >> that's a fantastic question, and this is where i emphasize the rule of law. what's so important about the way in which our society's been structured is if you look at the constitution, if you look at the bill of whites, and things like that, we have to hold people accountable to the fact that

they are not even applying the law equally. we have the rule of law, and this is one of the things that -- this is one of the beauties of the civil rights movement -- was calling america to its own standards, so, right, we cannot give people a pass when they are committing acts of injustice against human dignity against their own standards. that's exactly hypocritical; right? where there's injustice and where humans are being treated with injustice, where their dignity is being undermind, we want to call that out; right? some have argued that one of the roles of african-americans played in the country is to be the conscious of this country because when you're the dominant culture, you have a lot of blind spots, and it often takes brown and yellow people to raise a flag, like soccer, a yellow card, and say wait a minute, you may not realize this, but some

of your a,s hurt my -- actions hurt my opportunities for success. we have to continue to speak about issues related to white privilege; right? speak about issues related to what i often call anglo-normtivity and everyone else must conform. you'll remember, for example, that ridiculous article that came out in "psychology today" on beauty that said that black women are just not beautiful; right? that was a great example of the normivity that says what is right is just normal, and that everyone else must conform. we have to continue to address that because we're morally

flawed ourselves and have a blind spot. we, as a group, cannot have a blind spot. i'm more than happy to talk about those things if we have the time, which means i don't have friends.. [laughter] i get attacked on both sides. i'm equally concerned that in some ways both ignoring the problem can actually expose some racist ideology. you don't even care enough about the people to be concerned about the issue, but on the other side, you have the patriarch of good intentions, to treat people like their patch, like their children instead of treating them like adults. now, this issue of home training is really important. this is where the preacher side in me comes out. i won't preach a sermon now, but

i won't. these institutions like the family and church have really eroded in the black community, particularly the hip hop generation. they represent the most unchurched group of african-americans since the plantations. we have to begin to ask questions about where is the church? eddy at prince university recently asked if the black church was dead because that institution that so contributed to moral virtue has been on the decline in terms of influencing that generation because home training was broad. it wasn't just at home. it was home and community. anybody at church could smack you and tell you to shut up, pull up the pants, and spit the gum out; right? those things are really important. thank you for that question. very good.

>> i want to fuch on your -- follow-up on your point. my sister is black, adopted into our family, and is now 17. these questions have been forced in our family, these questions have been addressed long before now, but it's different because there's a draw in the hip hop culture. there's a rap sheet now. my sister's been involved in activities, and i won't get into the details of that other than to make the point to draw to the activities that are detrimental. it's hard to have a conversation at the level you have because the fundamentals are not even there. it's not easily accessible. what can the dominant culture -- let's see the people of faith or people of strong moral categories, what can we do to make it easier to start with categories of dignity and freedom so it's more competitive

to, you know, bling and things that are very attractive to young people who are just trying to express their identity, be part of a group that maybe doesn't look like something that their friends would have a hard time understanding if, you know, we can tease that out a couple ways, but i think you know where i'm going, and maybe one higher level question. that's in the family context. what can a preacher do or what can a person who has that vested authority to do bring about the reform or question so the hypocrisy that i agree exists, the reform that's needed back to sort of the standards of america's founding, and how we honor freedom and the gift that it is, and what does it mean that all are created equal as given by god or creator with inalienable rights. that's the dna of our constitution. how do you hold the values firmly in a church context and keep over the long term pushing

those forward so that these conversations are a lot easier to have because they are flash points, and it's hard to know how to cross the line. i don't know what help can be coming from outside the family, but inside the family, it's tough to even get there. does that make sense? >> yeah, yes, of course. those are two very important questions. you know, we have this tension because, you know, i'm an academic. i like using big words because it makes people think i'm smart. i get raises because of it and contracts an things like that. i love it. i love saying those. there comes a time where you have to talk to real people. sorry, sorry academics in the room. you have to talk to people in the street, okay? how do you challenge people to think about these categories in ways that make sense, okay? things like virtue and people like what are you talking about? listen, i'm not promoting these

artists exclusively. i just want to say that as a caveat, but if you listen to lil' wayne's new song about love, and in the context of that he explained how misdirected love becomes self-sabotage; right? he does it in crafty ways by telling a story. we basically story tell people and the thing about the consequences of their actions. i think that we often forget about the power of story and narrative, and in my own work what i have seen is people who are the best at principles arguments are horrible at story telling. it's the storying telling that

draws people into the principles and embeds it; right? the biblical narrative, two-thirds of it is story so i b wonder what happens if we were better story tellers about these principle, and actually presented them inductively so that people could actually see the full tapestry what it means to be a person living in full virtue. the book of proverbs, for example, look at the ant. people understand what that means. i can give a lecture on, you know, swath and the consequences of that in light of a person's human dignity and the implications therein. i can do that or just say hey, look at the ant, you slug guard. yeah, if you don't work, you don't eat. yeah, yeah, i get that, so we have to do a better job of putting these things in stories. it's the story that compels action, ethics; right?

your sister is actually splicing herself into an ongoing narrative, and actually i argue that many people on the left, middle, right -- not so much on the right, just middle, left, and way left, tell a story of a utopian of how things could be. people have these very principles that are shaded with the founding, they don't do a good job of story telling, so i begin to wonder about ways to sort of tell these stories first in such a way that people say, man, where can i read more about that? what's the principle about that; right? lead with a story first. in terms of religious leaders, i mean, you know, it's a multifaceted vocation. i'd say this. on the one hand, there still needs to be the type of

leadership that profeteically speaks to social injustice and is able to highlight and see the ways in which society is living in solidarity. ways of which social break down affects all of us. we have to realize people have stories and narratives. we have to actually know people's stories. this is one of the consequences of the one-size-fits-all approach of doing social justice work is that everyone does not have the same story; right? not everyone is in the position they are in for the same reason, and sometimes you have to unpack that story to know how to help them; right? those who are closest to the people, like pastors, have better information at understanding how to actually help people. what this actually involves and forgive me for using this and ash ancient principle is love

your neighbor. get to know their story. there's a lot of children in inner cities experience a tremendous amount of trama, family trama, and that trama affects their brain, it damages their brain, it creates learning disabilities, they have attachment disorders, so when they go to school, they can't make it 6789 you have to actually know people, and so i, you know, i'm of the thinking that pastors need to continue to speak profitically about the -- prophetically about the culture, how families are situated or not situated, but also to really help people understand that we have to actually embed ourselves, enter into this ongoing narratives of brokenness to bring hope and peace and to create a new imagination. one of the things i think that plagues people who are stuck in

cycles of poverty is hopelessness that the future is going to be bircht than the past, and those of us with good stories, good principles can help people walk into, connect themselves of a different narrative to have a new vision of what it means to be a human person, and we need to do more of that, more uplifting because that recognizes the person has dignity; right? it's not determined. your fate's not determined in terms of your own political and economic life. what -- how can we inspire a new imagination for the means of a human person to come out of that and go on to this? those stories are incredibly important, and i think in part this is the great trajty of durnt hip hop generation not being as familiar with the civil

rights generation struggle, the lives of those that lived in jim crow and slavery; right? i grew up hearing these stories all the time. you know, i just came back from a family reunion, okay? i heard all these stories again. they get reenforced; right? we don't want to go back. people talk about the good ole days, not for us. the good days are the future. i'm not going back to 1950 because i wouldn't be standing here if that was the case. i think those things are important, yeah, thanks, good question. in the back. >> i just have a couple questions. you mentioned that church was able to close disperties in inner city schools? >> yeah. >> what's the affect on white students? my other question is why do you think there was a break down in social institutions in the 1960s and 1970 #s?

you mentioned that was the cause of the problems we're having now, but you didn't explain why that happened and when it happened. allen bloom makes a similar point where civil right arguments were originally natural law based, and after the death of king, they were relativism. which came first and why? >> yeah, to answer your first question, in the research -- it's really interesting -- for suburban white kids, religion involvement really didn't matter. it really was of little difference because the types of things that reenforce success are embedded in middle class community so the difference is that within the context of church in low income neighborhoods, it speaks against the self-sabotaging modes of living in the comiewrnt. see, when you live in a

community that socially reenforces those things that lead to success, those things being reenforced in the church are not nearly -- don't bring nearly as -- sorry. they don't bring nearly the effect of when those things are actually absent. in terms of which came first, the chicken or the egg, i'm not an expert enough in those legal arguments to know per se, however, i will say this that it had much to do with this understanding of justice related to outcomes versus process, results versus process, and when human dignity became aligned not with people's free participation to agent --

actually fail, their free participation to participate in the process and compete equally, when it became about outcomes, it redefined what sighful -- civil rights was. you see this today in the language of economic perty; right? what makes, we determine equality on the basis of economic outcomes and material manifestations rather than recognizing equality on the basis of human dignity, and that chasm began to explode and expand in the 1960s, and you can see this, for example, with the programs that were initiated by lbj and the so-called war on poverty, which i think we're losing to some degree.

those programs initially began as a way, of course, to actually get people -- to wean people off the great society programs. a lot of people don't know that. it was intended, of course, to bring the sort of parody and quality, and the paradigm and measure of political and economic liberation and mobility because of the programs became reduced to those things that people have versus those that do not have those things, so affirmative action, rent control, government satisfied in terms of contracting for businesses and things like that, so, you know, you know, i personally believe that this

process versus result, understanding of what it means to be a human person and to live a vir choose life was the beginning of underminding this distinction between to whom does the constitution apply and how? how do we measure that in terms of long term outcomes, results? thank you very much. [applause] >> here's a look at the best selling non-fiction books from usa today.