>> can you hear me?

welcome to everyone here weia are so delighted to have this specially bench brian the director here at columbia university. we are here to welcome you here tonight in to have stephane hessel as our special guest. he is here with us tonight to celebrate and talk about the english translation of his book "time for outrage" and published by a 12 bookishe groups he has led and engage

lifelike and only hit on the milestone of stephane hessel is 93 years old turning 94 next month. [applause] born in germany 1917 in the midst of or during the russian revolution that perhaps was meaningful and moved to france with his parents and brother and group in his household and naturalized as a french citizen in 1937 summit would be takenis away temporarily whenever revokede g naturalization that was granted since 1927. he had just entered college

when the second world war i just broke out. it was the albreck of what is called the phony war captured by german forces escaped and found his waynd h back rejoining the family members. he managed to arrange for visas for his wife and hurt parents as well as other artists the intellectuals. mr. hessel left france to go to london early 1941. been captured by the gestapois in 1944. he was injured at the concentration camp where he nearly escaped a death sentence.

and then transferred to several other camps during the war and managed to escape on a train in april 1945 where he met up with american troops and rejoined the five. after the blower he joined the ministry of foreign affairs as an accomplished rsar diplomat and then the the newly founded the when he participated in the draft of universal declaration of humane rights and held a variety of diplomatic positions including french ambassador to the men then appointed to key government commissions including the high of 34 communication and human rights.i his many distinguish -- distinctions is from the legion of honor and the council of europe. also a fierce advocate

whether this is advocating in favor of the documented immigrants and then take of the human rights issue and because of that also with israel and palestinians.pa becoming first-rate news with initially inspired to commemorate the french resistance published octoberl last year think initial run was 8,000 copies but thent be became a runaway bestsellerge translated 30 languages and worldwidecopies and it seems to have struck a chord in every country it is published inspired use protest movements around europe may be here as well.ma

they have taken an "time for outrage" up for their motto it speaks to the younger generation that is so nice to see young's people in the audience tonight. joining me tonight to interviewo mr. hessel is a magazine of politics literature and culture guest writer and coming from the greatest borough in manhattan. [laughter] excuse me. new york. a freudian slip. we're so glad to have him here. also a brown graduate ofld columbia and holds a b.a. in english with comparative literature and also like to thank you 12 books for publishing the book and

suggesting we invite mr. hessel to colombia this evening and also the space to accommodate this many people. another special guest like to es say a few things abouts mr. hessel book of its timeliness and united states the publisher and editor. [applause] and the first to write about this book and the american press to bring it to the american readers hough hough -- thank you for joining us the five. >> [applause] let me be very brief it is a great honor to be hereoni tonight a voice of community an d conscience at a time with such values are sova imperiled. p in february the nation was so proud to be the first to

publish in the united states this remarkable manifesto time for outrage and i would like to tell you it was my as the msa editor that led me to this after all it had already overtaken the best seller list but it is simple anald universal, listen to your parents. [laughter] especially when you have a remarkable father who has a great for shin -- fortune where they were the french ambassador and the u.s. counterpart and my father in 1978 when i was released off of the hijacked plane and introduced me to stephane hessel whoe had been at myr father's home for hoursr giving solace and friendship then i knew there was good this in this cruel world. decades later when my father told me, i move heaven and

earth to publish this because his message is woven into the fabric founded by abolitionist committed to the end of slavery publishing martin luther king, jr. and others for crow those folks who fought for a more just and peaceful world and mr. hessel you haveul inspired, 93 yearsy old, younger than any of us and have forced us to look at today's world and the rapaciousness to understand wen must think gauge actively in human and economic rights and your words inspired i tha love the women in italy carry your book and protest of burlusconi and greece or spain and to those in our country wisconsin floor on wall street and i would close by saying one of the great things you have done

as a citizen of the united states of them meshach, i am so grateful to you to calling upon us to remember the best in our history to defend its highest achievements and in our case you give strength to those who are fighting or intent on repealing the new deal. there is a new spark in the world lit to buy you and we'll wait your next book. [applause] >> would you like to answer that? >> i cannot go up there. i am bound so i will stand that during katrina to have here melinda and bill and so many people i am sure that i

have known and event that it is a good moment for me. i can tell you that in the last six months since the book has appeared it has beennd translated in 30d different languages five spanish-language is but my spanish and editor.nsta [laughter] and. [applause] and is one of those that make me run all day and all day long. [laughter] but what strikes me is this book which is a book in 20 minutes you have read it.

it is a moment and that is why i can be proud. it is a simple language but the young french editor to whom i owe a great dealg because she really work toor on itke with me and then to have this in the nation itel is puttingle it out. and that made the biggest of

brands in the short little appeal coming in this moment. and for these united states of america that hasin been this the most fascinating with me in your modern world.n you cannot do without theo united states and we must have them as forward-looking, courageous forward-looking, courageous,s with people who know theop problem has to bele faced and pass to be solved.he it must be worried and worry can be held up so for these g reasons and the fact that we

did not a very wealthy all is a good government nor the lobbies? are those so what can we do to bring back something we can be proud of? and so to be proud of the book and the idea thinking al- of my country, france, sod the resistance is in thatp she was notta acceptable and the new french governments should come out after the war was over.te and i still feel at present we have of bad president.

[laughter] we must win back in the french public mind the ideas of welfare and security and social security and there was a lot to be done for those people and i am glad that the book has had with a great success. there was surprises be greatly is the appeal of the book of the other countries argentina, south korea and common germany a and sweden and then have to travel to all the countries.

and so for what you have done for the starving people in this big room which is wonderful for me. [laughter] to tell them just one basic message, never give up.ll never be in different. never think that things are riding in a way that cannot be changed. even as i am one year more now than what is in the book. is says 93 and now i am 94. [laughter] and having lived longo periods to be the witness the one great american president who hars done to

the 20th-century the most important mark of course, and thinking of franklin roosevelt that we owed the existence of the united nations and without him there never would be a united nations. h that is still for us essential piece in the way 193 countries can live together. in o not only on the basis of french resistance but then many other countries it

seemed right to competent because things could be put into a bettera state and in then for this is a sense, not even as much as men to be more effective and less influential. but now i am a particular a happy and pleased to have a colleague and i will try to

answer his questions whenever he feels free to put them to me. [applause] >> i am very honored and humbled to be your interlocutor and i am sorry after that inspiring speech to ask what may seem like a very depressing question which is about the united states. your book is addressed to many young people around the world asking them too never be in different to find the source of the indignation

and did the united states it means friends of mine on the political left field that unlike the rest of the world united states has not seen the kind of outrage from greece and france and north africa.n there are exceptions in the midwest and ohio and wall street. i don't know if anybody here has been. but i wonder what is going on. is there's something wrong with the united states?t why do you think they havemo not mobilized? >> to me, that did is a very important question.

thank you for putting it to us. what makes it that the great country is accepting with the lack of success. yes we can understand are those years as a moment ofas a great english and then 9/11 that shikar this very city that we sit now but in than and where those citizens of the country could except to pare its even if many disagree.

but then in then in the campaign of barack obama i have the feeling the american people was moving in nsa a very determined way he went to have day president that was not easy a we must admit he is black.unde and that is a difficult reference but in spite of that movement to bring him to the white house was something to us that watchedith it with great interest, we had the feeling that is really our america and ito will be over american.ur then, we suddenly felt that it didn't materialize. why? it wasn't for lack of support.g

i am not sure. not for lack of enthusiasm. but anybody who is at the head of the government andan not free and as an able president cannot do all he once. but i am afraid up to now of the new president ship the feeling who is the enemy? that is where my generation has been very fortunate inouye. very paradoxical but

fortunate for the young people to have a clear enemy. we know who to fight and those who give up the fight many of the frenchmen did not injure the resistance but those who did knew the cause. i wonder if that is not what is lacking now in this country. who is responsible at the responsibility lies with the president of the that is not a very popular fight. it seems to me it is of a lack of getting together in

order to bring the kind of change that they feel is needed. i have no explanation but my feeling is, they're great american and movement is the movement to four word and the new frontier, the newnt deal that is something to my mind that gave enthusiasm to the americans and also of the world now there is a lack that it seems to me, a lack of aid.me -- name. what do you do? what do you want? what do we want? do you know, why? that is the message of my

book. let's speak about the message of my middle book that makes it sell more. [laughter] that message is to say, look around any of you. look at what really frustrates two and makes you furious. som and then when you have founded comic commit yourself.w but that will change. and then the same thing is that moment why should ben run by the speculators? [laughter] talk about obama for a

minute, perhaps you may disagree and others may disagree but he was elected specifically on a platform that was against so that obama and people around him spokea very much of thatt consensus of the past partisanship. and indeed a very in rage cannot be seen in americannt context as equivocal political emotion to have. people feel that it has done damage to the political discourse. what would you say or how would you respond to that charge indignation and isin the problem and not the solution? >> but then obama wanted

consensus. and then one say consensus on the necessary change but he wanted to change. he wanted a definite change against what president bush had completed during his two presidential terms.eren then to have another t approach to civilizations andla particular to the islamic world. and then yet he did not want

to impose it. but he wanted to change.eve he was the change that he once did too those sinned millions of americans looking at from outside from europe and those ofcial america, as social security is limited and accepted by large numbers of americans and it sounds crazy to have so many who are not supported. and have to do something about that. and he did something. so again, so indignation is

said to seek consensus and then among them i quote the situation of the near east. the situation that is unacceptable. he was willing to try to change. and apparently did not reach the change in also it seems to me not on the indignation of people pushing him in that directioneo because thati was not his way to look atat things. then perhaps he is wrong. >> do feel he stifel the

most -- movement and there's the feeling and there rio indignation he did not harness? >> and i cannot speak forn him but it seems to me to overcome those obstacles which he wanted to overcome bye negotiation but where he found that is the making of a great movement. and therefore somehow to

harness those who have brought him to power and to the then the direction of major changes and something of importance it seems to me have given upmea and that is with the nervous satisfaction witches book was titled "the audacity of hope." audacity? that is not the consensus. [laughter] [applause] >> it in your book you mentioned actually people that i know not only giving

up on obama but electoral politics. there was a moment when it was very inspiring it has dissipated on the leftd .r and the importance of extra electoral politics. eha been here and abroad and then you bring up the central problem, how doesm. the young generation particularly react to the idea of politics? what do they put behind the word politics?c those who feel that politics

is there for the over privileged to give up toi the society to the underprivileged. that and people will feel that is the way that those in france and many othere countries and i also hear, that it did is played by people who search fornot power began to let go of the country ran.y

and then who definitely did not care for power. and then with a population and i must say wants more that that was also the case of franklin roosevelt. and the new deal was an effort to bring more privileged to the underprivileged but the young generation and i ame afraid in many countries that will not be achieved bya political parties so thenurn turn to other groups to take. advantage that this new aspect of the possibility of getting in touch with people all over the world i don't

know anything about that. [laughter] but if that turns them away from politics democraticallyu run administration and government, then why should one tell them they cannot change a democracy what is going on the democratic aspect. and it is relatively easy for me now because you're the party has come up with the extraordinary titleo nobody understands it.

never mind. but they are very useful and to say yes, we are of the left. they are in impertinent to work with a socialist partyp w and to not only to go into the ngo. bad is the way my book should be interpreted. "time for outrage" it must be inside politics and change politics from the inside. and then the political i don't care i am moving in another direction that is

dangerous. and then only going in the wake of the ngo and then to pick it up with parties and commitment. [applause] >> i would like to speak of the possible successes that means on indignation of theext so-called arab spring in but not just the air of spring

but the movement but then for the welfare state in greece, i am curious alsoyou what you think of the value. many are defensive. it is a question of luck but i consider myself as anrd extraordinarily lucky person. including the one that has saved my life. it was a great moment of

unexpected luck and those who manage to save three of us from hanging. and then one feels that looks around two. lucky if is surrounded fell luck and then to invoke the french resistance always something that people like to hear about to speak about the universal declaration with the great french men. it could be a good thing but it fell over the frontier

and therefore the lucky moment to come and speak with so many different people. i never expected that. it came as a surprise but i must admit it was a very lucky surprise. even in germany such a disciplined country, but the idea . [laughter] it is "time for outrage" in in germany, 400,000 copies sold. i think that goes to the fact that we live in a moment which perhaps is much more important than what we believe. it may be that our society

has become a global. when they can no longer try to bring important change in one country, without whole global human society and those that they do not even in addition will change the selfishnessn and in theal wanting more and more and more. not only of finance but also and without considering itty ethically something

important. and then in the human society and because i find it better than sympathy with the age of compassion if all of us are more interested said the others also have a good time more than we have never felt. maybe of metamorphosis. and to whom i always refer when people tell me but then to say everything is fine. and indeed this book is what

has been braff -- brought forward this has shown the way to enter perhaps a newent phase of this developmenteds that needs a radical change not only political change but epochal change. change of humanity. and to have on the good fortune to work with the number of people. and then for whatever is present in the room, we call it the international philosophical khalid

geo, the french thought they could call it college. and then they said no. given eight more grandiose title. [laughter]re est. group that we find truly extraordinary people like maryeg rogen -- robinson, in if members of this and they all believe and then it is always more than purely political. >> but how do make an epochal change? how does that come about?

and obviously ith comes about basically through education. it is a new form by what the teachers teach their people. and the way the faculties are separated from one another and don't do much about the arrest. for that has to be found and be brought but but in the non% looks at to the society he has good reasons to be

outraged and may have the feeling that he himself maybe responsible for change. it may go in the direction to be ethically and aware.ha two dannay generation out to of employment of a good car and a good home and even a good wife perhaps it is better to have a good one day and agood bad one. [laughter] but the interest of material goods is overreaching and sparks reflection of what iswh

it really bring? maybe we should believe more in a spiritual values that may come as a movement what happens to religions in the past? i have been shocked and i am struck to -- struck by the enormous importance. and when asked where it is your believe? they say it is clear we have the q'uaran and therefore that has not prevented them't p appear from having a terrible tyranny and corruption more than the others but there is a basis

there. i am an enemy because in then they are models against the other models. [laughter] twoo reach to the consensus i am closer to obama. [laughter] but a real utopia, the real dream and vision and sooner or later i could recite poetry. leave that for later. it to makes you feel this

utopian and why should we not believe in something much more satisfactory to the mind to the heart and mind that we are living now? not trying to grab something for what is possible and it may take some time but it doesn't take to be a real human%. but why not become a human%? [applause]

>> can we asked out your own personal history informs these idea? your book gives the month of the things the return to the ideals that fueled the resistance and talk to us about your experience and that was so formative forhinci you and how was it relevant today? >> >> should i answer your question?

>> we will work on it.of just project in the meantime. >> right two. [laughter] i feel that i have had the good fortune that methanol part of my father's and myself with an important german philosopher who was terribly unsuccessful during his life. he never even reached theun university doctorate although he was much moree intelligent those who refuse to give him one. and at the time when the french resistance was very, very small.ve we had just felt like weed were defeated. it was a real destruction of

the army and of our people i have come through it from the german barmaid to give back and the south of france than here i said we will resist to meet with could the fightontinue and to say i am trying to go over to the united states but i don'tu believe it anyes more. i see history as something gettinga worse and worse and worse. we are now in the most sadnt o moment ago and russia and s soviet union and then

britain resisted but the small country could not be invaded. and therefore killed himself a few weeks laterwh because het was so despondent but i believe there what we had ofy lost the battle but we have not lost the war and towe continue to resist and finally he was wrong and i was right. and so that brought me to the idea that this french resistance one was not a exaggerate its importanced that eisenhower said the resistance was the equivalent for him of 18 divisions.

but obviously it was one by others much smaller than our western army. and then the idea of the resistance. the message and then in the moment of one's own history where people were active and fighting and proud of the fight but also because this group of physiciansher physicians -- workers, gathe red together under the same leadership to sit down together to draft a program for the future of france. and then to bring together all of those who had in common with the idea of

resistance. and then there was a very interesting program. in one of the copies of my book, i don't know which flying bridge but with such problems of security because all of these problems that were very much inspired and great britain and franklint roosevelt with the new deal. those came up in the program with the french resistance. 60 years later the cut is a

number of friends the cut as they sat together and said we're not have me in the way that france, not happy about the way france keeps pace tol the message of the resistance. and then the french government is not going in that direction. that is what has happened. and so if indeed i think that was your question. with that small moment of

french history and then has insignificant that you referred to as not just that two but to resist. that is alsos is the message now and we must not always think of what is wrong but the way in w which it could be effectively resisted against. there you are. [laughter] >> you say in your book thet reasons to get angry may seem less clear today than your generation. what do see that you make you angry or deserving ofn indignation that need to be responded to as a matter of social justice?

>> i will say indignation and is not a movement but the next it has been written by me fat is called commit yourself it has come out ands a very goodlo person and this little book was more directly aimed at the younger generation and. . . has the definitely named at the young generation and it tells them, you must commit yourself and watch. now that it's really the question we come again to what we said before in my generation, in my youth to say it was easy to see where the enemies were, to where they are the forces one should commit oneself. that does come out a little bit

and it took time for outreach. it comes out also in the other boat and it comes out very much also in books. and they do on at least indicate three very important challenges to our society, our global society today. and i've tried to indicate amendment to as the terribly important challenge of poverty and richness. it's always been poor people in rich people in the world, but never until the last 20 years perhaps has there been such a spread. the rich are over rich coming-out tour in $100 million a year is not even strange here.

and to not have $2 a day to survive is the case, the fate of millions of people in our world. that trend is insufferable and a think anybody who watches it must not only be outraged, but he must be committed. many people do something about it. many people are working with the organizations commend those things coming unicef and so on. and that will make a little insert. what is the real organization that works for that steadily with great honor, great success, but says the united nations, which has its headquarters in this very city of new york and

which is not supported sufficiently by the united states. clap back so that's the first challenge. let's go on to this i can't be for everybody leaves. the second challenge is even more obvious, but it is not difficult to encounter. and that is the deterioration of the planet. what does that really mean? is that the climate, is that the water? is all of that. we are over exploiting our little planet. we know not that i little planet is a tiny little bit within the grave cosmos, but we also note that the only place where human

genes, not even on venus or mars. therefore, we must be careful. and if we know that we know more and more every day -- it's going in the wrong direction it's overexploited. and he was really holding it back? yes, we are going to have next year 20 years after the neocon friends of the environment a new conference on the environment. we've had copenhagen in between, but what did the government do? nothing matched. not sufficient. there is a second great challenge. and there have some hope. i have the hope that young people, when they are informed about that they become more outraged than on any other set jack. and they may feel that really do

have a responsibility to do something, get together and do it. the little party in france, eent, which has as quoted for whom i regret goes in that direction. and already in a year and a half, it has been put up. it is now 10 people in the new senate that is only very before. so apologies to prohibit this general name is they think very appropriate challenge and it can be, i think, cut up into a variety of specific challenges, whether trunking ladder or whether a claimant of sort. that is an enormous challenge. the third challenge was chased the end which has not been able to fix it is terrorism. on bad calls that there is a

little passage, a small passage in my book, but there is a good book now written by john pierre about terrorists. so people are writing and doing things. how do we urge terrorism? certainly not in the way it has been approached after 9/11 by president bush. heeding the afghans, tallow bands was not the result. make it a war in iraq was a bad mistake. but there should be ways. there should be intelligent ways of thinking, where it is terrorism stemmed from? but under circumstances where terrorists get hold of the minds of people, circumstances should be hopefully changed. so there is another big challenge. but i have no way of dirt.

[laughter] >> already. i think we should turn over to questions from the audience at this point and then i do know, would you like to ask one question only do that before we think of questions or are you ready to invite questions from the audience? >> no, we should try. >> a few more questions in reserve. a lot of people here i think what questions to ask. so please. can we do have microphones so that you can be recorded. if you could please speak into the microphone. >> thank you. in your book, you are an important author of the united nations declaration of human

rights, could you say something about what you think the relevance of those are today, particularly a call for a guaranteed jobs and guaranteed income and guaranteed social services to people as the universal right for humanity in general. could you save something about your role in writing those and what she think about their relevance for today? >> that is to be a very, very important question. i have considered to be over enthusiastic about that text. but i think the text deserves overenthusiasm. first of all, i always say it was drafted at the time when there was still an enormous relief and utopian future.

it was the moment when we thought we had behind us the worst things that can happen to human beings with the second world war, with the shura as we call it now. terrible things have happened and we must know who it the accent on something which has never been put into international language and which is human rights. the league of nation was founded to prevent war and trait to have peace. it failed, but it never thought of bringing up something like human right or wrong human beings. it was an extraordinary ambition again, again, it was not only do old love the chancellor of the united nations, which foresaw that one should draft a declaration on human rights.

it was also the work of eleanor roosevelt, the president did who chaired the commission which dropped the text. now in that text, if it is cloaked in a with sympathy and not only with the critical few, it can be criticized. every text can be criticized. but if we look at this with some sympathy, we will find in everything we still need. there is an inward to be changed. if you take the articles on social right, the right to social security, the right to a job in the right to school, it all in there. and i must admit under the pressure of the eastern countries, which have the time were members the united nations, even if some of them in the

final analysis are promoting it because civil and political rights were not entirely satisfied very to them. but if you take the text as it is, i think it is still the basic instrument for anybody in the world who is now living in the tutorial country or in a corrupt country to say i want these rights and they are there in the declaration. they were carried over into the two paths and there is a council on human rights is working on them and there is a marvelous high commissioner for human rights of south african lady, charming lady who is working on it. but the declaration it tells contains related to my mind a

except that at that time, we did not realize the situation of the earth. nobody thought that there is a danger of overt flirtation of the earth. and that came only further and was stuck on confidence in the real confidence again, the united nations and now it is said that. but far from that, which is absent of the declaration of human rights, all the rest is in their end all the rest you find an article for everything. the one article perhaps that was already doubtful at the time is the right to property. article i. don't remember, 12 perhaps. i'm not sure. that of course it property has

to be protected and made secure against every danger, then perhaps the object is of the declaration will not easily be achieved. we have to live with that. [applause] >> d. of the questions? >> would you comment -- [inaudible] i have a loud voice, but i'll use the mic. >> it's better with the microphone. >> would you comment about the team emission of resistance? i recall being in france many years ago and where there were demonstrations every week people in the streets everywhere,

wherever you were there were demonstrations against the war. and also here as well. and now there are wars all over the place and people are rather casual about the fact that the wars continue the enormous numbers of people are dying and children are sent. and enormous amounts of money are being spent. and yet, columbia university i remember lots of -- very little now. >> you think about demonstrations against such wars as the one in afghanistan or in libya or in iraq or elsewhere. no, i am afraid you are quite

right. diesels are considered sort of sad. one protest makes protest to get a job or to get good schools, but one doesn't protest sufficiently against arms, weapons. the only older did a marvelous job, handicap international who put this strongly against media minds against personnel mines. but that's a very minor problem after all. and you are quite right. it is taken for granted now that while there are wars, what can we do quite a pen that is where perhaps we have to look at the

basic reform of the united nations. i always come back to me dear united nations. the united nations were set up for human rights, but also for the preservation of peace. and when wars break out, while they are at the blue helmets. my friend brian burkett was the one who gave them the name blue helmets. i always recall the story when the first blue helmets were sent to this today near east. he said to his friends he was in charge of that. he said how are we going to make them different is all the armies? and somebody said let's call them blue helmets. but the wars that are going on now and very few of them, blue helmets has been in effect this. there are some cases, cambodia

keith is where the blue helmets have been extremely useful. but the united nations has not been able to set in action the real security council without a veto in the security council with strong authority. my hope ms tell you was that after mr. bond keen to, who is a very charming and very able a phish show, but not an inspire the great visions. if he were succeeded by somebody like the brazilian ex-president, move the not to my mind would be a very important change. [applause]

because with all the very important things that are being done by the united nations in the dozens of important field, in the fields of preventing more, putting a structure and securing peace they have failed. and the greatest failure of course is israel palestine. why has that problem not yet been solved? because of the security council, there is a veto. but by one country i don't quite remember by which it is. last night and therefore, no progress has been made. [applause] >> can we have a microphone? >> okay, sorry, go ahead. >> hi, i've been involved in --

[inaudible] >> you must speak louder. >> i've been involved in the wall street process for the past week or so and so i'm very grateful for the chance to hear he's peak. your book has been a huge inspiration for all of us. i was wondering if i could ask your advice on one issue that we are facing, which is -- [inaudible] some of us feel that demands will help the movement grow and affect concrete change while others feel that it is more effective to remain sort of amorphous and connect to it through vague sentiment of indignation or outrage in this will help attract as many people as possible and keep the horizontal. so there is sort of two parties and i was wondering if you had any rights or input on this debate. >> yes. have you understood this very

clearly? >> the question is that she's one of the protesters on wall street for a week and now since the movement faces the issue of demand, whether they should remain amorphous in order to be democratic or whether they should focus on a few set of demands they've reached a sort of crossroads. is that they feel are inspired by your book. >> anyhow, the one thing they think should not be the result of indignation and that is the violin. the temptation would be to say we have been indignant and now we are going to hit the peak oil that are -- that make us outraged. i think the message of the book

tries to bring forward that success is achieved more by nonviolent determination than by hitting back of people who one considers that is -- dislikes. but that is always very difficult moment when one has gone on this tree and one has been strong in one's demand. then one goes home and what is next? so that is where we've tried with the second book to see one's demand station has shown that one is outraged, then one

must try to find nonviolent method strong enough to be sent by those against oneself in action and one can use for the modern means. one of the most important modern means of coors are the media. the journalists working with journalists is very important. and it is necessary that journalists remained independent enough to be coming forward and indignation. if you have a good return, and understand there is one that i'd vaguely heard in recent time. it's called the nation. last night the nation can carry

forward beyond the immediate movement, something that will be felt more widely. so i would say my answer to your question is what do we do next after we have been indignant? we try to get good journalist to continue the fight. [applause] >> i think just two more questions. in addition to all this traveling around the world, actually a ride from paris afternoon and it's very late for him, so i think we'll take two more quick questions and then will thank him and let him go and get some rest. i think there's a question back here. >> okay, i have a question.

the nerve of the declaration of human rights, utah about property in the original declaration of human rights. the idea of property and the rulings recently incorporation as a person by the u.s. supreme court strengthened the position of capitalism and property in all these sort of things. how can engagement deal with the problem of property because they see the other points that you mention in your buck are poverty and richness, the environment and terrorism all related to that. how do you deal with the problem of excessive greed and how do you move to compassion and engagement? and how do you know fermented nation to effective action?

>> hair. basic question. let us start with property. it is true that this article in the declaration of human rights was of course brought forward and supported very strongly that the market economy. the market economy cannot work if property is not protect it. and at the same time, market economy was speculative finance and is also dangerous to property. so it must be, i think, considered as something that gives the response ability for the property of others. you should be made secure in your property only if the property is not extended beyond the normal need of the

proprietor. so, it is true that when we drafted the declaration, the countries which were on market economy and on capitalists on were needed to ascertain their views as the kids does who already lived at that time and administered economies because they were present in the rule. now, i think we have grown. defeating has grown that are normally communism is dead at to the war of the fall of the berlin wall to be brief, but that socialism is also a danger because it may lead to

administer the economy and we must protect the freedom of the market. there we can go beyond what is ethically accept the will. it is not administered economy that we need, but we need social d. we have a real need for the protection of the other privilege. i always come back, common that we live in a world where there is much a distance between the privilege and the underprivileged that any government which wants to consider himself a democratic, and therefore having competing for the oligarchy, he must have a social policy and limit the power of the market and let not

the market grow file. i am afraid that what we call is the washington can then says, with milton friedman and others that was going in that direction that we can no longer accept to support. [applause] >> okay, what am i sure question right here. go ahead. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. be an african lion was deemed to have quickly your position of the institution africa because particularly in the democracy security. in 2011, africa find it hard to walk through the development. so according to you, what are

the issues that indeed asking countries to achieve the movement? thank you. speenine the most important to my mind thing for africa is that the aid given to africa, which is normal and needed because africa is the poorest part of the various areas of this world, but that it can be more dangerous than it can be useful if those who receive it are not masters of the way in which it is being distributed. we have seen. for aid was channeled through the head of state in a parking countries and the head of state themselves had been