enforcement of the other provision and he wants to talk to congress and is not allowed. >> host: that is a great place to end. do not mess with librarians. thank you very much. . .

and a list of other george mason university interviews go to booktv.org. you are watching book tv on c-span2 and this is part of our university author series. each month book tv travels to a different university to interview professor who have written books that you may not have heard of and this month we are at george mason university in fairfax virginia on the all outskirts of washington, d.c. the metro area, and we are talking with johanna bockman, whose book is markets in the name of socialism the left wing

origins of left-wing liberalism. what is left wing neoliberalism? >> a lot of people will ask me that. it's a word that is much more popular actually in europe. people in europe on the streets talk freely about liberalism. there are protests about new liberalism. a very popular but neoliberalism. it is generally seen as the idea that we think of ronald reagan's ideas of the pro-market an antistate, people generally identified up with ronald reagan or margaret thatcher. as of these ideas are market state and have other qualities i talked about in the book for different than people expect. >> such as? >> i say that often even though they are antistate often they have a strong seat it's just a smaller state projects things like private property, protect the market to be competitive and also neoliberalism is often

related to capitalism as opposed to any other economic system. >> where did the term neoliberalism come from? >> the term neoliberalism is often from the right around the end of world war ii there were a lot of people in europe talking about an idea of rethinking liberalism after all of the trouble of world war i, world war ii, things like that they needed to rethink liberalism and make a new kind of liberalism and so when it came out of their ideas of the time people were involved with this rethinking of liberalism, and -- >> was it to make government less powerful? was that part of the goal of neoliberalism? >> coming in from the time of fascism and the rise of the union there was a concern with the state. >> what is the classical economics when you talk about that? >> the neoclassical economics are mainstream economics.

most people would win the d.o.t. comprise our people from other strands but the majority of economists in the world practice the neoclassical economics in one way or another. it is based on the idea of the classical economics was the economics of adam smith. the economics based on certain things but particularly they wanted to create something new that they believe the hour lady is understanding how value was created and they thought that lieber created value and prices. the neoclassical economists said no, labor doesn't do it. it's actually the consumer that the sides with the values will be. it doesn't matter what the leader does it with the consumers think and that value is what is called neoclassical economics. >> what is the classical period? >> the classical period would be in the 1700's, 18 hundreds of the neoclassical ended the 19th

century and begins at the 19th century. >> well-known economist keynesian theory of economics where does that fit into your book and to what we are talking about? >> keynesian economics would be neoclassical economics so it was brought to the united states in the 1930's and 40's and by a very famous economist and people like that they brought these ideas to the united states and so he is neoclassical, however, in my work why try to do is the difference between the economic policy so keynesian chezem is an economic policy but what economists actually do is different than the policies. they have different ideas and models that are fundamentally different than what we hear about in the policy world. so this policy world they are often are around either you or for the market or for the

states. the time of the tea party is often saying we are the first market and obama is for socialism or the state or the planning or some kind of interventionism that is a policy discussion. it is very different from what actually goes on with an economics. economists are tree much interested in a different kind of discussion about how to model different things and they models since the way they do this is they don't have a state versus market idea the state and the market were equally efficient in their model. i'm trying to separate the policy discussions which are not part of my book from the economist ideas and what they are trying to do because we don't understand, we have the guns understood. >> where did you come up with the name markets in the name of socialism? >> i came up with the idea markets in the name of socialism because one thing is i knew that from the american conversation

in the exit poll of the tea party is we are for free markets because we believe in capitalism and i trying to say in this book correctly that markets are not identified as having to do anything with capitalism. markets are often perceived by any american and east european economists, latin american economists and as part of socialism that markets would actually try and be fully free markets under a socialist system so this is the way that it was. >> johanna bockman, how would you describe the u.s. economy today just on a free scale? >> i can't talk about a free scale. often my students are confused by this but there is no question about this, we have private ownership of the means of production and do not have any if you look a percentages of any

state ownership it's much less than 1%, so we are, there is no question. there were students are often confused because they hear in the media we are socialist or fascist or something but they are not taking into consideration the two different definitions of the systems. >> is there a true socialist country when it comes to the economy? >> will talk a lot in my book is there are numerous kinds of socialism that were around, and none of them were truly socialist so what happens one of the cases people think of as the true socialism is the state socialism of the soviet union and the state socialism of the soviet union was very different than other kinds of socialism there was the socialism of yugoslavia which included a radical free market, and the worker owned and controlled factories on the market. so, these -- none of the systems

of socialism ever realized themselves. people might say that the scandinavian countries approach something like socialism but i think many socialists would disagree and say that is a special form of capitalism, in my search form of capitalism. >> when you're the terms welfare state is applied to sweden what does that mean to you? >> welfare state is a form of capitalism that is seeks to reduce inequalities and is a form of capitalism that speaks to make things create less inequality and create more fairness i guess in some sense but we can't say the welfare state in can see them kinsey and ism is trying to repair capitalism they made a debate about whether this repair actually helped but i don't think anyone can say that socialist. >> johanna bockman, when you talk of internationalism how does that change the economy of the world? >> internationalism is

interesting. we often not recognized during the cold war many people were travelling back and forth across the cold war and so people were sharing ideas and these ideas lead back to change the systems fundamentally. people travel between the united states in the major universities and went to the soviet union. people in the soviet union won the nobel prizes together during the cold war and people traveled from the third world to eastern europe or eastern europe to latin america. all these different places so what's very important is people were not isolated. people were sharing ideas and these ideas fundamentally the implemented them and created new economies. >> you teach sociology, not economics you are an economist by training? >> i was a math major at one point, like math. on a sociologist.

sociologists are interested in the numerous things, one of which is neoliberalism is interesting to sociologists because the policies are being implemented worldwide. people want to know where do these ideas come from but people also want to know the consequences of these ideas on the world. what's happened to people where they are implemented and they are interested in how people react. they're interested in the social movements that emerge that are going against neoliberalism for other systems. this is evolving right now in different parts of the world. you say they are being implemented. where are they being implemented and do you see it long-term lasting long-term? >> this is a big debate among scholars actually because the first four of neoliberalism were implemented in latin america in chile when the government was

brought down and the pen of gif government was put in and high-tech and others all helped introduce neoliberalism said that was sort of the big expert rental boom. it was brought then to the united states and they've been implemented in cities in the united states. we also have neoliberalism brought in to in the wind and then most importantly the importance of neoliberalism for the east europeans. the east europeans, russia, poland, hungary were implemented by taha neoliberalism. >> why did you choose this topic? >> i was in budapest hungary -- >> before the wall fell. >> before the wall fell. i picked budapest and i landed in this place and i couldn't believe what was happening and i

was on the i guess 20-years-old so it was very unclear to be what was going on and on nuclear to everybody and i realized i had to understand what it seemed the end infil i need to explain what happened across the region. >> dr. johanna bockman is an assistant professor of sociology and global affairs. george mason university here is her first book by stanford university press markets by the name of socialism a left-wing origin of left-wing neoliberalism. thank you for talking with us. >> thank you very much. as was hinted in the introduction this book in a nut shell is that climate change

doesn't just look like bad weather it also looks like ethnic violence, religious violence, civil war, the industry, counterinsurgency, xeonophobia anti-immigrant policing and i try to tease out the cause of the of the climate change and i never argue that climate change the sole driving force of violence in any one place but it is a contributing factor and it always works in conjunction with preexisting crises. the idea of the book came to me when i was reporting on the heroin economy in afghanistan and i would ask them why are they growing this a legal crop, and running the risk that came with that of getting arrested having the crops destroyed by the government, and part of the answer that came