ronald kessler, author of the ne begin the series with ronald kessler, author of the new book begin the series with ronald kessler, author of the new book "the secrets of the fbi." the first chapter is about the tactical operations unit. what is that? guest: it is a euphemism for bugging and wire-tapping. about 20% of the book is devoted to this. i could not believe the fbi would give me this. in my first interview on the subject with the person in charge, and wondered if he the one of us would be arrested -- i wondered if either one of us would be arrested.

someone questioned whether the third-ranking fbi agents should be giving me this. i am still amazed. when someone asks me how i get them to talk, i usually say that i would water board them and that worked well. host: has this unit been around for a long time? guest: in terms of the sophistication and size and this particular name, it has been in recent years. they break into homes, offices, and even indices -- embassies to plant bugging devices without getting caught and shot as burglars. in an embassy, they could be thought of as burglars. they do go in with weapons

drawn. no one has been shot so far. there have been a lot of close calls. to make sure they do not get shot, they spend weeks beforehand casing of the target with surveillance. on the night of the break-in, they will have agents who watch anyone who might go back to the premises at their homes. if they start to go back, they will divert them. they may just as police officers. they may open a fire hydrant. they may stage a phony traffic accident. if there is a dog on the premises, they will take a photograph of the dog before hand. they will show it to a veterinarian on contract. he will prescribe the right amount of tranquilizer that is shot into the dog with a tranquilizer gun.

they wait, before they leave to keep from arousing suspicion. -- they wake up the dog before they leave to keep from arousing suspicion. they will create phony fronts to houses that they used to shield them as they are picking locks. they will take a picture of the front of the house and blow it up. they also create phony bushes with the same idea. shents hide behind tehe bu and pick the lock from behind the bush. there are seven teams with about 10 agents on each team. they go around the country doing this.

there are about 400 operations or break-ins a year. they are thoroughly covert. they operate under cover so that no one would even know their name. if there stopped by the police, they would have a phony name that is totally backstopped by social security and other i.d. they have ups uniforms. they may introduce static on the phone line. he calls the telephone company. they say they will be right over. they send over agents in a telephone truck. they replace or fix the phone and put a bug in it. host: you refer to this as legalized burglary. guest: that is the term the

person in charge used for court- sanctioned burglars. it is a half-joking reference because it is authorized by court order. at the same time, their job is to be burglars. they have incredible stratagems to cover up what they're doing. host: do we know how much they get of the fbi budget? guest: it is at least $40 million. an additional sum comes from the national security budget. i do not know the total. there are about 1000 please assign to the total operation called "operational technology." and includes the wiretapping. i went to the facility that does irginia.quantico, va

no reporter had ever been there before. there is a picture of in my book, "the secrets of the fbi." that is all dedicated to tacops and making bugging devices. they deploy the agents from a separate place offsite. that means it is totally secret. there's no way to identify it as fbi. to the outside world, it looks like an industrial complex. host: you said that they will break into indices -- embassies. guest: if they were caught as burglars, they would be shot. there have been close calls. in one case in new york, agents

were planting bugs in a mafia apartment. one of them was about to do a big hit job. they thought they knew where he was. they did not. they heard his key in the lock. they jumped into the bathroom. one of the agents was in the shower with his gun drawn. the other agent turned on the water in the sink and took off his shirt and pretended he belonged there. this hit man fell for it. when he left, he told them not to forget to shut the door behind them. host: the first phone call is from virginia. go ahead. fbi havedoes the

information about the military? i have heard people talk about maybe some of the big military brass with republican views are causing some of the incidents over there. jimmy carter said the recovery team over there to get the marines. they had a big helicopter crashed and made him look bad. more recently, there were the 31 people who got killed in the helicopter crash. what do you think about that? guest: it sounds like you have a conspiratorial frame of mind that the fbi knows everything or causes problems and crashes. the fbi did become heavily involved in the effort to kill osama bin laden. they trained the navy seals on

how to pack up evidence. over 100 items were seized better now in the custody of the government. they were never able to match his fingerprints. they thought they had his fingerprints on papers seized earlier. it turned out they did not match the fingerprints on the body. let's not create another conspiracy theory. they did make a match using dna and facial recognition software. in the end, they were never able to match his fingerprints. host: someone wants to know about the sources and whether they were anonymous. guest: most of the book is based on on the record interviews. they were done with current or

former agents who had inside knowledge of what they're talking about. in one case, they brought out things that have never been brought out before. just after the death of marilyn monroe, a teletype came in from the agent in charge in los angeles saying that just before his death, he let his personal car to bobby kennedy to go see her. i confirmed with his children on the record that he would lend his personal car to bobby kennedy to go see marilyn monroe. i suspect he broke up with her before the death. that is just one of the secrets of the fbi. host: clearwater, fla., you are up next. caller: why would you reveal this confidential information to alert the enemy? why should the enemy and those

who do evil things be aware of this? guest: some fbi agents did raise their eyebrows because this has been so secret over the years. nobody has been given access to this. the executive assistant director of the fbi knows a great deal about what could or could not be revealed. he decided to do this. he consulted with other top people at the fbi. he ultimately got the approval of the fbi director to give me this. if the fbi does not know what should or should not be secret, we are in big trouble. they certainly did not give me everything. it is four chapters of the book. it is so unbelievable. you would not want to put it in a movie because no one would believe it. there are some techniques that are still secret.

they gave me a lot of techniques on how they pick locks and if the alarm systems. they send the agents to elevator school to learn how to take control of the elevators. if they're going to bug an office building, they will take control of the elevators. they will come out the next morning wearing business suits so no one is the wiser. host: in 2009, there were more than 800 agents that graduated. they do 20 weeks of training. they do realize cases at quantico. they must shoot 80% or better.

they have 90 hours of training on tactics, operations, undercover intelligence, etc. how does the training for tacops agents differ? guest: the whole idea of the fbi academy training for new agents is to give them a general idea. when they get into specialties, then they get much more training. in the case of tactical operations, they want agents who are quick on their feet and can come up with a cover story is a week. about 20% are females. they may have a male and female agent walking hand in hand. tending their boyfriend and girlfriend. -- they may have a male and female agent walking hand-in- hand pretending they are boyfriend and girlfriend. these agents have to be

especially willing to take risks. it is unbelievable. you could be in an apartment or embassy and get shot. host: if they were caught or shot, with the fbi -- with the fbi -- would the fbi denied the operation was happening? guest: no, it would be legal because it was authorized by court order. host: how do they recruit for tacops? guest: current agents will sound out who might be good. they travel all over the country. they put bugs in rylhode

island for the mafia. they bugged a mafia induction. they also put bugs into the john gotti social club that helped to lead to his arrest. at the engineering research facility and offsite, they will make a vase or lamp with a bug on it. they may send an agent posing as an exterminator to take a picture of a vase in the house. they make a replica of that and put a bug in it.

then they put it back in the house. i was shown a bug that was the size of a postage stamp. it could record for 21 hours or transmit remotely in stereo. that is one of their little techniques. they could put it in a book, a battery for a cell phone. i was allowed to interview current agents at the engineering research facility. my battery ran out in my reporter. they brought me a new battery and said it had a bug in it. host: victoria is calling from new york. caller: this is fascinating. do they use this to discredit

political candidates? this is kind of scary. guest: under the reign of j. edgar hoover who created the fbi and made it into the world's most admired agency, there were massive abuses. the fbi engaged in political surveillance often at the direction of presidents. they were wiretapping. there were illegal break-ins. you would develop what mail files on members of congress and the president. i document that. a lot of formal agents -- former agents will say it is a myth. it is not a myth. the former head of the washington field office of the

fbi says that is exactly what they did. we need to be vigilant about the fbi and government. no actual abuses been found since the hoover days. there has been sloppiness and mistakes. i go into some of those in the book, but no actual abuse. host: we're talking to ron kessler about the tactical operations unit. our focus this week is looking inside the fbi. mr. kessler said the budget might be around $40 million. we do not know exactly what the budget is for this unit. the fbi budget request overall for the agency for 2012 was about $8.1 billion.

in fy 2011, the budget is broken down among the different departments. we did find for the 2012 request line items for electronic surveillance. it was about $4.5 million for 13 new positions. you can see the current services with 45 positions. that includes five agents at a cost of about $40 million. we go next to bloomfield, conn.. caller: my question is why are

they releasing this? he only wants to sell a book. why would he detail operations so that the enemy would know what the fbi is doing question of these are people working to defend your country. host: what do you think the motivation was for making this transparent? guest: i think they trust me to tell a straight story. the head of all this said he thinks people should know how their money is being spent. there is an additional component from the national security budget that is not revealed in the budget figures. there are a lot of funny stories. in philadelphia, they have to bug a mafia front that was an

electronics store. they did not want to go in the back because it could be booby trapped. they have to go in the front. the tacops agents rode a city bus. they drove in front of the establishment. they pretended the bus had broken down. they pick the lock. nobody from the bar across the street could see them. the bus went around a corner while they were putting the bugs in. the bus came back. there were two patrons at the bus stop there were furious because the bus did not stop for them. they finally got on the bus.

the agents did not realize they were not with them. the agents started taking off their weapons and equipment. the agent who was driving had just learned how. the passengers were wanting off. they really started ringing. the agent who was driving realized what was going on. he let them off. they went running down the street and no one ever heard from them again. host: how long do these missions take from conception to execution? at what point does the test operations unit get involved in an operation? guest: it gets involved in very high-profile cases, usually when there is enough reason to believe there is criminal activity or a terrorist plot.

it could be three or four weeks where they do the surveillance. they even try to figure out the sleeping patterns of the occupants and when they go into deep sleep mode. they try to come up with any eventuality that might interfere with the operation. host: someone wants to know how you double check your information. how did you know what they were telling you was correct? guest: when a former director tells you how it is done and shows you a bug engine interview the people in charge, i do not think there is a lot of reason to doubt the story. i present a very detailed account. it is all on the record. i was not able to use one name because that person was still

under cover. i explained that in the book. for other secrets, and also get cooperation -- i would also get corroboration. i did that with the marilyn monroe story. in the case of vince foster, i had on the record interviews with the fbi agents who did the investigation. the fbi determined about a week before his death, he was depressed. hillary clinton had a big meeting in the white house with foster and other aides about her health care legislation. she disagreed violently with an objection he raised about the legislation. in front of all these white house aides, she totally humiliated him in this meeting and said he was a small town

hick in this meeting and said he was a small town hick lawyer. [no audio] a week later he committed suicide. they found this is what triggered the suicide.

[no audio] caller: about al qaeda creating [unintelligible] would this be a problem in the united states for them knowing about our mechanisms that we have put in place? guest: the other side knows that we do this. they do the same thing to us in the case of the russians. that is not a big secret.

the judgment of the people who do this was that this was something that could be revealed. i have to tell you i am still shocked that i was given this material. host: republican ellen from michigan. caller: i have a comment and a question. my comment is that with all the new technology that has increased, every day there's something new. i believe it was last week the air force or nasa let it be known about the fastest airplane that could travel like 13,000 miles an hour. you come out with this book revealing fbi secrets. you are letting known the old techniques. there are so many new techniques.

we have no way of knowing how advanced the techniques are. guest: there are very sophisticated techniques used that were not given to me. a lot of them are very arcane, electronic devices. in terms of the basic story is and how they approach it in some of the actual incidents that have occurred, this is something that was thought to be something that could be in the book. the fbi went into a mafia home in las vegas. they thought there was only a dog there. when they open the door, a cat ran out. they had to get the cat. if the cat disappeared, the people would know the fbi had possibly been there. the agents had night vision goggles and were on walkie- talkies describing this cat.

about an hour later, an agent radioed that the habitat in custody. they brought it back. it started hissing at the dog the dog started chasing the cat. they thought that was strange. the next morning, they were listening to the bugs they had planted. a lot of times to get rid of people, the fbi will say they got a free trip or dinner. they will go out for that reason. these people came back and found it was the wrong track -- cat. luckily, these people started rationalizing to themselves that may be the wrong cat came in through the trapdoor. was another case in new york where the fbi was putting bugs in a mafia social club. there was a difficult padlock.

they had to bang on it in the middle of the night. a lot of times they will use a jackhammer in the neighborhood to cover up the sounds. in this case, there was a mafia apartment right next door. mafia people were playing cards. they heard this noise. they knew they had been bugged by the fbi. they thought it could not be the fbi because they would never make noise like that. host: how much to the costly research and develop new ways of doing operations? -- how much do they constantly research and develop new ways of doing operations? guest: there are some locks that are really hard to defeat. it could be used by an embassy or sophisticated terrorist. they also farmed out projects to

national laboratories to build bugs and ways to defeat things. they do have techniques. before they go into a location, they will have a device that can see under doors what might be there. they have other devices to detect radiological and biological elements that could be harmful. in some cases, they want to stop a terrorist attack using those elements. they also consult with the cia. they would say they are equal. about twice a week, the executive assistant director meets with his cia counterparts. they do the same things overseas. the plant bugs, steal codes, and generally have a good time. they seem to trust each other.

host: the tactical operations unit is our topic this morning as part of our week-long series looking inside the fbi. we go to a democrat in florida. caller: i am calling about some of the information we are being given. as i grew up, our fears about russia were that there were the secret police who could take you away in the middle of the night or enter your home at any time. i do believe we do not any longer require court order that -- we do not any longer require a court order. the fbi or cia can bypass that. maybe within 48 hours they are required to get an order. i would like information on the case where the fbi planted

explosives and an toironmentalist's trunk frame them to be charged as a terrorist. guest: with the wild conspiracy theories, ask yourself if you think the fbi could pull off killing people. they have no reason to do that. they could do that and it would still be a secret. it would not give out. the 72 hour limit you mentioned is for an emergency intercept. let's say osama bin laden was calling someone in new york to detonate a device. nsa picked that up. do they need a court order to listen to that when the conversation has already taken place? by the time you get a court order, the conversation is over. in some cases, you need emergency authorization.

with all of these things that have occurred, no abuse has been found. if you do not let the fbi do wiretaps, why do you let them have weapons? at some point you have to trust law enforcement. if they do wrong, prosecute. have oversight, which we have. both the extreme left and right have these conspiracy theories and the idea that the government is watching everything we do as if they have nothing better to do than listen to phone conversations for no reason. the reason we have not been attacked cents 9/11 is because the fbi and cia -- the reason we have not been attacked after 9/11 is because of the fbi and cia. every few months, the fbi has

arrests of terrorists. that is the bottom line. that is why we have not had an attack. that is why we have been safe. host: ron kessler is our guest. "the secrets of the fbi" is his new book. let's go to david, a republican, in st. louis, missouri. caller: earlier you said that the fbi could come into somebody's house undercover. if they are shot and killed, the person who killed them would be liable because they had a court order. obviously the fbi will not announce themselves of who they really are. how would somebody really know who they are?

they might be a real burglar. if they are shot and killed, how is that person down libeable? guest: presumably the body would be found in someone with no this happened. there was a case in cincinnati where an agent did have to kill an individual who saw them putting a tracking device under his car in the middle of the night. he came out with a gun. he would not put it down when they told him they were fbi and to drop it. it sends chills down the spines of tacops agents because that is the last thing they ever want to happen. in one case, they went into a home and the alarm system was not on. they wondered if someone was there. they thought maybe they missed

it with surveillance. they thought someone might be on the premises. they have their weapons drawn. they heard "hello." they were about to target someone with their weapons. it turned out it was a parrot. caller: i want to ask about one of the great successes of the fbi with regard to the world trade center bombing. it was revealed in the press that the fbi set the whole operation of. they trained the driver. they built the bomb. they set the whole operation of. host: that is david's opinion. we go next to warren in ohio. caller: it is inconceivable to sell a book or a peer and expose all the things the fbi has done. to say the fbi can do all of

these miraculous and mysterious things in foreign countries at night, and then get the answer that if the fbi did this in the united states that it would not be revealed. c-span should really look at this kind of exposure in this climate right now. it is not helping us whatsoever to expose it. the other day, they showed what the navy seals did. they showed what kind of equipment they have, how many are in the unit. they showed their wives and where they live. if i were the bad guy, all i have to do is watch these types of people promoting these types of books and i would be able to do damage to america. some things should be secret and some things should be exposed. guest: i agree with you. i am sensitive to that. i did consult with fbi people about what details should or should not be in the book. i never would have revealed the

intercepts that "the new york times" revealed. that did tip off the enemy. in this case, it is no secret that the fbi does blogging -- bugging. the general outline of what they do is known. a lot of the material in the book is stories about what goes on in these break-ins eries with ronald kessler, author of the new book begin the series with ronald kessler, author of the new book begin the series with ro nextentary you are currently working on? >> well, my policy not to discuss the films that i'm making while i'm making them. for all the obvious reasons.

>> are you currently working on one? >> maybe. i just don't talk about it. they just appear when they appear. it is not in the best interest of the film to give a heads up. you know? before i made "sicko" i made the mistake of saying i was making a film about the health care industry and the health care industry went on high alert and the pharmaceutical companies went on real high alert and even though the film wasn't going to be about them, it was about health insurance, they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars preparing for me and i would give all of these internal memos sent to me from people at work -- that work at different pharmaceutical companies, saying we had an inservice today and they hired a michael moore actor to come in and do role playing with us, if he shows up at the

building, this is how you handle him and pfizer had a michael moore hotline and it says in the memo. and if i show up at a regional office around the country, call this number in new york and they went to... an executive at cigna health insurance company and he talked about hundreds -- millions of dollars they spent hoping to discredit me and attack me and if necessary figuratively, not literally, i hope, push me off a cliff. so i learned my lesson there. it is not a good idea to give them advanced notice what i'm working on. >> and book tv interviewed wendell potter on his book, if you want to see that go to booktv.org and use the search function in the upper left-hand corner. this question: as an iran-american, i am

worried about worries you may be planning a trip to iran and the press said you were invited to come to iran and you have accepted and they would consider that a coup if it happens. >> i have been in invited for many years and "bowling for columbine" won the top prize at a film festival in iran and the prize was a beautiful persian rug they sent me. no. i'm not going to iran to the film festival. i don't know if it is really... you know, the thing is, with iran, i have been active in the last year or two, they've had a couple of filmmakers, essentially have been under house arrest, and i have been active with other filmmakers in the country to convince them iranian government to leave them alone and let them make their

films and iranian filmmakers, they have the greatest filmmakers, if you have a chance to see an iranian film, they are really, really good and it is definitely a country that loves the movies and i think we saw through the green movement here a year or two ago, there are huge -- a huge sentiment in the country to be free of the dictates of those who would want to run the country. iran is a democracy on a certain level. they actually do have free elections, anyone can run, and there have been a couple documentaries i've seen that are incredible things and they're not -- i try to avoid any sort of evil act, axis of evil discussion because i know that there are people in our government, now that we've had our way with iraq, want to move

on to the next bogeyman and iran seems to be it. and there are certain forces that want us to now go to war or bomb iran, things like that. and i try to avoid any kind of -- i don't want to be associated with anything to do with my government attacking anybody else again on this planet. so i think we leave to it iranian people and i think they are going to stand up and get the country they want. and i'm hopeful for that. >> this is michael moore's most recent book, "here comes trouble." stories from my life. john in portland, oregon. you're on the air. >> caller: hey, michael. i've seen a few of your propaganda films over the years, and, i've noticed that you try to edit things so people think something happened when it didn't. and i wanted to specifically ask about fahrenheit 911. you have a section where you are asking congressmen to send their kids to iraq and one

congressman, republican congressman said he had two nephews in afghanistan and you edited it so it doesn't respond and looks like he has no response and walks off. and, that is not what happened and i want to know why you didn't include his actual response if you are supposed to be a documentarian. >> thank you for that question. first of all, in that particular scene i had him a specific question and, i asked it of every congressman i ran into, republican or democrat. would you send your son, your son or daughter, to iraq and he wouldn't answer the question and instead, he tried to -- and a number of others did, too, oh, i have a nephew, i have an uncle or a cousin or... i have somebody down the block, that is in iraq right now. and no, i don't think you understand my question. would you send your son or your daughter, not your sister's son or daughter, your son or your

daughter, and he wouldn't answer the question. they don't want to answer that question, because at the time when i made the film, "fahrenheit 911" there was only one member of congress who actually had a son or daughter in iraq. and i just thought, wow that is interesting, there are 535 members of congress. majority of them voted for the war. but they don't seem to want to be willing to sacrifice someone from their own family. send kids from the other family, those who live on the other side of the tracks, let them go do it. that was the point of that and he was giving me a dodge answer, and saying he had a relative over there and that wasn't my question. and i still think it is a relevant question. if you are going to vote for war, would you be willing to send your son and daughter and, i will tell you, i was over... i

had not seen a world war ii memorial until yesterday and i went over there, and when you walk in, on the first stone as you walk into the memorial, it says, world war ii memorial, big letters and big letter under it it says, george bush and it shocked me for a second and i think, oh, because he was president when it opened but i'm thinking, i don't see that on the washington monument, who was president when that opened and a plaque on the jefferson memorial. you know, who was president when it opened. what is his name -- his name, specifically, doing on world war ii? here's the guy who supported the vietnam war, but wouldn't go. i mean, at least with clinton, he dodged it, too but he was opposed to the war and that is a consistent position. he didn't like the war and didn't want to go. i get that. okay. but, bush, he was for the war back then, and thought other people should go, not him.

so he gets -- strings are pulled and he's in the national guard and his name is on the very first stone as you enter the world war ii memorial? a war my uncle died in, 405,000 americans died in, and your name is on this? i'm like, you know, it took me back to the question about, you know, yes, they are really good at supporting war, getting us into wars, but if they had to die or their kid had to die, no, i don't know about that. but, somebody else's kid... just abhorrent to me. >> there's a story in "here comes trouble" about your father and his world war ii experience and there's a story in there about you taking a trial run to canada. >> my dad was in the first marine division, world war ii. and he was in many of those

island battles right on the beaches, horrific stuff and i tell one story about christmas day, 1943 where he was in a battle in new britain, part of new guinea, and it was an incident where -- a friendly fire incident and he and his unit had taken a hill and the american plane is coming in and -- american planes coming in thought they were japanese on the hill and strafed the hill and every guy in my dad's unit was shot, one was killed and 13 were wounded and everyone was shot but my dad, only one who wasn't shot by the low-flying american planes coming in thinking they were japanese. and he told me, you know, growing up, every christmas day, he remembers, he's grateful, was grateful for being alive, somehow he survived that incident. and i until the longer story in the book. my incident with -- of course i

was opposed to the vietnam war as i said earlier and as i became near draft age i think what will i do? i'm not going to kill vietnamese and i and buddies decided, we were like i don't know 16, 17 years old, we weren't going to go to jail. we weren't going to go do service in some other service, you could do that for the government. we decided we were going to move to canada if we had to and so we knew nothing about canada and one day took a car and boat over to port huron, michigan to do a dry run and see how we'd escape to canada and we got over there and forgot the motor to the boat. so we couldn't take it and wee we decided to try and cake the car acro -- take the car across the bridge and, the other guys were

smoking a joints so they could relax and i didn't do drugs and i was the designated driver and tell the story about getting across the blue water bridge and into canada and our great escape and of course the next year there was a draft lottery and i number came up like 273 and i wasn't drafted. >> richard, richmond, virginia. thanks for holding, our on with author michael moore. >> caller: mr. moore, an absolute pleasure to speak with you today. how are you doing, sir. >> thank you, sir. i'm doing well. >> caller: i have a question to ask. i contacted my local american cancer society concerning an event they'll be holding and i suffer from a brain injury and other illness and i'm -- your piece on "sicko" was absolutely beautiful. i loved it. beautiful.

my question, sir, is how do i approach or how would i go about approaching the american cancer society concerning a study they did in 1974 with thc shrinking tumors in mice and them not wanting to go that direction? >> i do have memory of something about that. i can't speak to it. i will say this. thc which is an active ingredient in marijuana, you know, our drug laws in this country, i mean, this is another whole show. are just out of whack and things like that, where medical marijuana and things -- people have been trying to use to help

people and years from now, historians will look back at this era and wonder why we did so many of the things that we do. i would say, for you and i get questions like this all the time actually from people, you know, have seen my movie and need help. because of the medical problem. or their hmo will not pay for them to see a specialist and remember, these insurance companies want to provide as little care as possible because that is how they make a profit. and so i would say to you, sir, definitely, get behind -- there's organizations that are trying to free up the studies, use these drugs, there are people who have been fighting, the fda for a long time because they take so long when treatments that are being used in europe and other places are not being used here. but, remember, the fda, of

course is controlled by the lobbyists of the pharmaceutical companies and others who have a vested interest in making a profit and in "sicko" i told the story of jonas salk and, i told the story in my last film, "capitalism, a love story" and he invented the polio vaccine and people were shocked that he didn't want to trademark it or copyright it. that he decided to just give it away for free to the american people, to the world and he said he thought it would be immoral if he were to own that or make a profit off it. he said, you know what? i'm a doctor, i'm a researcher, i get a great salary, i live in a big house. what more do i need? i did this for the people. where is that? where is that sense of -- talk

about patriotism, right? not just for america but for the world. we don't have