they finally got him was on tax evasion, and about his recent arrest and cissy, who had married this horrible, crazy and her life ) account and made cissy by saying bad boys have such an appeal? anyway, it was a big seller for her. ..

>> about the history of of a whale. why this come of why now especially when one of your primary conclusions is for a

while things will much change much. >> a couple of reasons which rents will not change but a lot has changed in the world with the soviet union collapsed in the only country that gets two chapters. write-up until what happened this year with the era of spring with the big impact on energy and also this is more ambitious because it tries to cover the whole energy spectrum there is a big topic to take on to find iu word biting off more than expected. >> after reading 700 + pages

and the footnotes, they gil. [laughter] it makes the book shorter. >> very perceptive. >> it is hard to see how they fit together. because if we continue through unconventional sources which is great the expanded than what well prompt us we don't get much more bang for our buck how to recede these fitting together eventually? the story is how did they get started and going back

to the 1970's and at eight -- cedis with much more sophisticated technology they will continue to develop with wind, solar, but we're seeing a technological innovation energy supply in the u.s. is very different from what i started the book. >> host: 2005? >> guest: yes. it was called in shale guest and not until 2007 people have followed up to what is happening with this tight oil u.s. oil imports going up which is what we have been habituated to for 70 years. >> host: now the idea of the petro state with the

rise in hugo chavez and the oil industry there and fidel castro and cuba and that got me thinking there is a lot of controversy right now especially after the gulf oil spill last year. >> that is an interesting chained how risky but getting into the offshore we'll game of fact the stability if at all? is there a reason to be s concerned as we were? >> cuba is very close to florida so certainly concerns about environmental

safety and security but of course, for decades thought of i do carbon dollars but oil has been very key as well that plays a role the soviet union used to play. but my expectation would be the company start drilling and put aside the politics that her complicated enough. >> also on page 109 with this conversation of hours to the events happening

today so state is day capital-intensive industry with projects in welfare and in tammet. am pushing open resources do drilling in as a job creator? that is it. i question? >> guest: that sentence applied -- applies to the population that doesn't have other skills a very large oil producer and the least but it has become clear the

jobs themselves are those the support them with the oil and gas at -- gas development it turns out in thinking the lead of shura golf industry and so that depends on the country and the scale with all the other industries to support it but what we are learning now the united states there are a lot the secondary jobs. >> host: what about that concept from the buzz term.

>> so that whether the above the administration was successful renewable energy use geothermal, biofuel as a great job creator? >> so if you take a ethanol as a motor fuel then of course, and had day transformer did the fact. it is just the scale of bigger businesses so where are the elements for the other factors if you look at

the numbers you would see more jobs created so how this started to read disk -- reach the scale $120 billion invested every noble electric generation some of that does start to create more and more jobs but it just takes time because the whole energy system is so large civic dimension death of all that is toward the end of the book i found that part of the book very interesting. you seem to be a believer. is that accurate? or at least to be enthusiastic. >> i was fascinated so many like biofuels like

ethanol, you have to go back a century to see that to the story that ended at 19101920 with there was a great move for ethanol because farmers had such a difficult time for in things into his tractor engine to demonstrate the potential but ethanol we are seeing limited in the united states. it is now about 6% on the energy basis of the motor fuel. but you say what is out there on the horizon as a potential game changer? and not from foodstuff for allergy it was hot three of four years ago but those

efforts continue. where do vibrate through, from? that is the intensification of the efforts from the second generation biofuels. use the biologists now as part of the energy business and 10 years ago that was not part of the energy business. this is what i call the great innovation and. >> what i found interesting about ethanol, correct me if i am wrong, but it seems to be a success and gets a foothold because of government policy that made it successful. that is interesting because there was a manipulation of the market going on to make ethanol a bigger share of what we feel our cars that

was expected whereas today in washington, a plush of let's have the market do with what it wants to do, how is it is okay to tinker when it comes to ethanol be encouraged not too solar or wind? >> you are in the state of california, to use your phrase to say 33 percent of your electricity 2020 is four renewals so we do all lot in this country by mandates and by requirements such and such a percent has to buy the biofuels our renewable and if you just look at it is the mandates.

most renewable said is wind because that is no longer an alternative. >> i did not see that to and i will all come back to that because as you know, , and renegade calculations fl lifecycle of the 85 and up until it is more damaging incrementally they and gasoline. >> i did not go into depth with that but i did discuss it but also by the debate if it takes more energy to get to ethanol and whether you using to do it and there are serious arguments about that. but it has to go back five

years to that consensus support around ethanol was stronger than it is today but it is now part of our motor fuel. >> host: i remember covering that in new york one of the environmentalists that pushed us to ethanol. >> one of the great triggers but in terms of volume volume, about 1 million barrels per day, that is late date small or medium-sized country but in the book, former governor of iowa , now secretary of agriculture, they have talked about ethanol as a way of rural development so

as to those issues loomed very large the regionals are so different so for the country our size. >> host: reading your buck these posted notes are just thoughts that i thought of while reading it so aggregate disruption with a confluence of world events venezuela hurricane katrina and rita urie we have republican presidential candidates coming into office to say president

barack obama whole intent as president was to cause a huge increase in the price of gas. are any of these realistic given the global oil market that you so well described in the but? how much can a u.s. president do with gasoline prices? >> president after president have discovered they have less control over the energy market going back to richard nixon with the speech in the book and jimmy carter to make the cornerstone and their are not that many levers to pull and what has happened is our influence a of energy in a country is we used to be the name of the game and we talk about the

chapter of aggregate disruption could then trying to answer the question, how do we go to thousand four but then four years later when hundred $47.24. how does that happen? one of the factors is the growth of demand almost unexpectedly in the emerging market bursting on the scene and it was hard for americans to realize what they pain at the pump was affected by the promises of china they did not even know because of energy demand. but this global market and in the center of gravity was shifting we still use twice as much oil as china but to

they could be even with us in 20 years. >> host: basically them bottom-line marinara control. >> the interesting things that are happening is we have a lot more employment and mandates but ford automobile company that is not very far away you can see how they do this? and they are starting to disappear from new cars from the fuel efficiency standards. >> as a great entry point* into my next question, who is an of "state of the union" has decrease demand for oil into the chavez and

ahmadinejad lost it so bush thought we will reduce our demand but what is interesting about that it seems members of the same party largess to drum main the supply-side. to drill more at home to open anwr. >> search of a bush was saying that to. there are two characters. one is named supplier one is named demand. bush made the comment not in the "state of the union" address but there was a geopolitical context particularly during the time of the tight will market to reduce the influence of these characters among others not only on the oil

market but on world affairs. >> host: can read get our way out of energy dependence? is that possible? i am asking that for the late people out there but those who are not daniel yergin premier energy expert or me who covers it day in and day out. is that a total pipe dream when you say the politicians say energy independence? then to say the gloves are off we could run of a sequence of president after president we're part of the global economy? so the real question is vulnerability and security not a question we have to be 100% independent and i asked

the senator about that that really means energy security but that sounds abstract so we need to be in a position where the economy is less foldable to disruption and the american people can count on a reasonably priced flow of energy so those are found on both sides of the equation. we're twice as energy efficient as you were in 1970 is with a huge contribution just imagine the trouble we would be an but at the same time people thought the u.s. is finished to find out they're not finished as a producer 371 drilling question i have been dying to

ask, republicans on the one hand on the campaign trail say drill drill drill. and the democratic response has been the concept called use of your visit a lot of those have acres under sitting on them but you do a wonderful job you can politics or policy this all day long but it comes down to the technology for what you want to get. with use it or lose it a viable concept? >> i don't understand it because companies don't have the incentive and it takes time because on the other hand, you don't want them to rush into the gulf to dot

every i and cross every t. there's a lot of times in the energy business we would be given a project to day and then you have to allocate capital and that depends on what happens to the price. there is definitely a middle ground to have a reasonable approach to develop resources to put to our economy. and also the jobs bill on a reasonable basis but right now we're in the middle of a political system that for the campaign is all the discussions about energy 10 to be more polarized. >> host: there is a lot of great characters in this book with t. boone pickens,

and another man "iron man" wind. what it is said about oil and natural gas in the whole arena that attracts a larger-than-life personalities? >> also the wind chapter. >> host: all of them. >> guest: or solar. and from bethesda. [laughter] >> one of them is still around and supposedly spiking it with coca-cola they note and nothing about the solar business helping the government would of satellites. imf about the use book would a solar or wind come from? what about natural gas? and the energy business does have people who were strong-willed who can take a

lot of disappointment and our may be somewhat obsessive even win, people who say you are crazy as a i love those who carry the storylines but there robbery's off pipelines to be marijuana of growers interesting tidbits even the energy writer like myself the stock of the abstract midcourt cahal kristian -- i

was puzzled why were people stealing these things? to draw electricity week says the police could determine for the marijuana business. >> >> guest: by the way let me also say one of my favorite characters who is a man and caltech walked out because the air was so dirty and give up his favorite subjects why pineapples were sweet vs. where does smog come from but to in so then he also identified the active ingredient in marijuana. >> one of the guys who wrote

the first papers odd fracking receives in congruent but it begs the question as a reader one of the things that comes up in the whole p. boyle discussion is he failed in his projection to incorporate technology and wrote a paper about fracking that has opened a whole new world for natural gas. >> that's right. when he was right teens of paper -- writing the paper paper, and technology but

people come to the view that technology is over and we know what we know and look at our world. that is not true. there is a character in the book who was a french scientist 1824 rotor paper about the steam engine also the minister for under napoleon and convinced those in the napoleonic wars before in after words and talked about a great revolution to capture the world not even labor or animal labor but it was technological ingenuity and he called it the great revolution and i am convinced a lot of

entrepreneurs will continue. >> host: that is great into my next question there is times in the book you seem to oscillate to in between government wallasey mandates having subsidies are needed to get this which going to get away from fossil fuels but then other points in the book the canadian oil sands and the california blackouts and regulations the debacle use a just government intervention messed up and was to blame pour the oil sands not be developed not agree to tweak the market but where do you come out at

the end of the day? do we need to every policy to make the transition? if not, what well drive it? high prices because of demand? to get where the oriole is of the alternative energy use comment carping tomahawk environmental controls? itoh see the bridge. >> what those requirements that is the force of law other than jerry brown the same governor who mooned kicked off the wind business has to sign this legislation 2011 and it has the force of law. the zero energy is so

fundamental and tied up and in fact, said there should of while category a higher due regulated activity. those only a decade ago was a fundamental mistake with the regulation but did not regulate the other half and did not figure out it has the economic boom but that is what happened to. >> host: what you say to those to say step aside and sort it out to? it's not federally.

>> no but to the have 54 miles per gallon is a powerful piece of regulation. a lot of things are happening and will continue to unfold with the california air resources board it is the closest thing we have to a global regulator. >> guest: also they did think this of the california but you cannot build one car for nevada's and another for california then manufacturers all over the world pay attention. a lot of things are happening that people don't see better certainly harder than the market in as always the final frontier but this

is the ongoing interaction. >> asking and other way you have come a long way since you started writing the book in 2005. with where we are today would we be here without government intervention in the? >> without fuel efficiency standards rehab but different pitcher but not should we have government but i tell a story of samuel who was the greatest businessman 1920s and people followed his word and also presided over the most famous bankruptcy in the great depression and came this close to going to new jail in if you go back early at the 20th century

regulating carbons 20 or 30 or 40 different power companies of that whole system we have a regulatory bargain. that is how it works. >> a new chapter you talk about the deepwater horizon incident and the mistakes but and also i was wondering are you surprised that congress to date has not passed any legislation with the lessons we have learned from the deepwater horizon? >> i think a lot happened

you had the reorganization of the offshore oil industry. that is a big deal. you have a much deeper understanding and coordination and it was an accident that people thought could not happen because we know how to do it but it did happen. as a result there were a lot of consequences as a new regulatory regime. >> host: which could be changed with a new administration. >> guest: but the emphasis on safety you could argue about timing if the agency had enough people or does need more funding but i don't think anybody will back away from safety. nobody wants to have anything like that happening again also to have the establishment that it should never happen again but

should it fined to quickly staunch so it doesn't turn it into what just went on and on in. >> host: and an earlier accident your reference that was even longer with this bill of oil. >> yes. this was at great depths and you can see they had to invent the technology along the way to do with the. now the capacity is there and the thing is that it never house to be used but if something does happen and it would be unacceptable otherwise 27 talk about the reorganization and be renamed and that has been further split to the

environmental and safety part but it seems to me but you downplayed the coziness between the regulator and offshore in oil and gas but they now have to carry their own and even been that on a hot day. we had regulators and people in charge to do drugs with them and partying. >> guest: are you talking about denver? >> one in denver then one in lake charles and the other was pour off third at -- port arthur or new orleans and was fired for going to sporting events.

>> but in deed that would be a very deep coziness. who are your inspectors going to be? they may go to the same churches on sunday morning as those were working on a platform that does not mean they're not rigorous and tough. we now see a couple of reports. we have the presidential commission and i think there are important lessons to be drawn and part of a reorganization was to separate the different function because of promoting offshore

development and responsibility to manage the safety and other countries have learned that you have to separate the two functions but the purpose was to show how much had gone 180 degrees. >> was a tongue-in-cheek talking about how what had changed. >> the accident was a momentous accident and people's lives were lost and it affected the livelihood of so many people, and covered so much of the ocean, you don't just go from one way to another overnight. i think we're still in a transition to find out the way property to regulate and with the preeminent objective with which they seek. >> going into nuclear

energy, one of my obsessions, you mentioned everett regulators in the wake of three mile island there was an investigation just like good gulf oil spill. >> but it is interesting whether great characters of the book and the people of the younger generation have not only heard of them but 62 years on active duty also as much of nuclear power and a very can taste -- cantankerous person but jimmy carter called him the greatest engineer of all time but he put to jimmy

carter on the spot in an interview? >> guest: yes. so anxious to get into the nuclear navy he interviewed people he would have two chair leg people so they be uncomfortable or blinds with the sun comes into their eyes and he is interviewing a young man and said something and then rick said why didn't you do better than that? so that was the title so why not better? >> that is great to one but after three mile island which was nuclear in pennsylvania 1979, carter i concluded to apply it to

many accidents? >> i wrote in a margin that to cut and paste or the joint investigation with an ad and you have a series of cascading mistakes of one of them had happened you would not have a disaster and other circumstances seven at a 10 and nothing happened but if they all come together, when i read that letter i had the same reaction to seven solely the investigation into three mile island and at the end he warned against the cops and robbers syndrome between the nuclear industry and the government regulators and to never be sufficient and that is how impo was created.

>> self regulation. then you have the industry to critique each other and very tough on each other because there is a recognition if one person makes a mistake ever betty is full marvell. >> i think of power works the same concept at a school playground but then do say you have to cleanup your act that they work together to set standards. the oriole will commission kumbaya called had the entity from oil and gas. is that needed?

how is it they were insufficient for nuclear it not with offshore? sages needed something else. >> where were similarities but also differences because basically they don't compete with each other so strangely enough furies the antitrust questions which have to be managed and also, in a sensitive assembler you don't have that many nuclear operators. also certainly there are industry-wide associations to monitor and push technology but if it is hard for industry like oil and gas to have that self regulation as antitrust

becomes an issue. >> do say in the book more than any other president before him barack obama has invested to remake the energy system to drive toward the renewable foundation and said go back he has raised the stakes to the level of me national crisis. that has been obvious with the recent department of energy and they had an article about the geothermal pack -- plan with backing in nevada from financial trouble after the failure of cap-and-trade legislation in congress now those that are somewhat questionable the

amazing strides it has made a comment or china which is a huge manufacturer, , you

will go full board. >> in the '70s the prices go like that. and it disappeared. and from a number of different places. >> wayne never knew that. >> and is around with ge. >> before that to to do stand-up comedy with the singing group in las vegas and we wanted to use that as a story from our country because that is what

happened in world war ii. with those wonderful commercials talk about what ronald reagan and nancy reagan did let me show you might electric service that looks like a vacuum cleaner. but what was not there before there was not a consensus and it makes good economic sense and i don't find there is a animosity is not sexy. >> but that is the challenge my quote from the former energy commissioner of the european union to say there

is one paying problem, there is not a red ribbon to cut. you cannot have the opening ceremony with the big turbines. >> host: it also goes to the challenge of one it takes a political courage 1/8 responsibility. barack obama got into a lot of trouble when he talked about cap-and-trade were the whole thing cents up the price signal for that to skyrocket. that is the whole point* of cap-and-trade? when you start to manipulate and lacks the monkey at the end of the day began to diminish that price signal

it comes up over and over again, with the increase of price. as a kid my mom said turn off the bed july. we do not know the gas company. [laughter] that resonates but that is a hard political road to pull off. >> right now with the bad economy, jobs, and employment, these are the dominating questions and you approach energy issues differently than you do during the good times when there is not wealth effected work. but that is when you go back to see that no congresswoman

would vote for the gasoline tax free to buy a more efficient car but the way we go about it is we have a fuel efficiency standard that reflects our culture there. >> host: but if we continue to go like this up and down with our support and other countries do this jury ever get into that? into china and japan that we are behind the. >> i don't think we are behind but at the forefront technologically. with the low-cost manufacturing to drive down the cost, that is why they

move so fast. it is not like they have been inside that we don't. they also have very important to win sources quoting the chinese government officials because we used to regard them as a natural disaster now is a precious resource but if china has x number of wind turbines, at the heart is what is happening with innovation we have a great universities and we have more players coming into the game so there is more going on. also what we do think that is on the horizon right now is the electric car race or the race for the electric

car that had strategic elements to 71 of the same this i was struck with the kyoto protocol to push using markets. with a mission and to regain and pricing solution. [laughter] with the old ronald reagan's story. but not the great technological event -- of france nine did you were old enough to remember.

>> against the europeans and the cost without a market system for any economy to bear. is the clean air act? let the whole development using markets to solve environmental problems was a development in the 1980's and 90's is a much more eerie efficient way to have command-and-control to do that. going back to the hw bush administration and even the reagan of frustration.

it meant the cost reduction and uncle electric generation listening to people talk about cap-and-trade with that narrative the early 1990's i was fascinated to get the story. how did that happen? then read just found out cap-and-trade is big and complex it is much harder to do. >> so what is climate policy today? that is a form of climate policy and renewable standards that is climate policies. >> we can do the

transition from dave fossil fuel based the. >> that you have to have some form of our price on car been that is a complex and political question in the united states but to also, we just have two realize the energy transition takes a long time. wind is a big business but still small but it will grow >> host: we have one minute left i will paraphrase. it really struck me in the massive book, you were talking about an indiana scientist he said the

climate world is divided into three. the climate atheists, agnostics and evangelicals. i think ifs we know people who are in those categories. which one are you? >> it is clear the whole measuring of carbon in the atmosphere but the timing and the models i am not a climate scientist so what i tried to do is explain all that science turned into a political consensus of. that is what i was trying to do. i wanted to tell the