judicial decisions? if that logic? is an experience or is it a combination of both? to help us answer these and related questions, our panel today include judge eugene pigott junior of the new york court of appeals, the state's highest court, justice mark martin of north carolina supreme

court, judge brett kavanaugh, u.s. court of appeals for the d.c. circuit and chief judge edith jones of the u.s. court of appeals for the fifth circuit. our motter greater chance cristen castaneda, senior counsel in the appellate at locke lord and she received her jd from smu school of law where she was a sumners scholar and she is a member of the executive board of the council of appellate lawyers. these join in welcoming the outstanding distinguished panel. [applause] >> thank you so much for being here today with us for our talk about judicial decision-making. before we begin on this veterans day, i would like to take a moment to remember all those who have served our country in the u.s. armed forces in northern men and women in uniform today. thank you for your service.

[applause] i want to start with a question to kind of bridge between lawyering and judging. before you became a judge, when you're a lawyer, as a lawyer before you went on the bench, what didn't you understand about how judges make decisions? we will start with you. >> that was so long ago i hardly even remember it. what did i not understand? i did not understand the impact of a personality on the collegial decision-making process because i'm a multimember -- please forgive me i am better today than i have been with this laryngitis, on a multimember court, you have people who have decidedly different life experiences and professional experiences and

legal experiences, each of which has something to contribute on just about every case that comes before us and therefore when you sit on the piano, particularly when you sit with people repeatedly era are your, ub, i a cohesive group that understands where each person has on each issues. and that contribute to a much more unified project than you it bank with the with a single person and that is not all that persons opinion. that is a product of the majority that person is working with. >> judge kavanaugh. >> i think two things. one, the importance for judges of moving the docket along, deciding cases and keeping everything moving meanings that

judges are interested in efficiency and also means from the lawyers first active, that issues like waiver and can sessions at oral argument are things that judges are going to be very good men because that's the case that the issue is or you have conceded and that is one less thing they will decide in a finite period of time when there's a lot. back in, picking up on what chief judge john that, the collegial process of a group coming to a decision leads to a group into the opinion. when i read opinions. i now understand much more about how that might have been put in because another judge and it was a condition of joining and

working together to try to get a group product sometimes leads to not just a collegial process or a consensus product can sometimes let the clarity for just one judge. >> i'm going to use the term synergy. it has been very interesting to me that when you have an appellate panel or in bond court working properly, it is amazing to me that if you have the interaction among the judges come you truly have an opinion that is far -- the product of that collegiality produces is better than any member of the court. and that's important for attorneys to understand that the more they can engage members of the court in argument, the more they can be cognizant of the individual judges or justices

are your opinions in an area appeared they can really give you insight as to where the process can lead. the other thing that's been very impressive during my 19 years on the bench is how imports and the judges consider their role when they decide cases. they know they are not branch officials. they are very aware of the fact that they are not legislators. and you can just tell them to try part type system. >> i was a trail year country lawyer for 25 years and i've been on the appellate courts of new york for the last 13. the one game a night at a decision from an appellate court because the lawyer is our turn to the last page and if i want to scrape that i lost it wasn't. last night if i lost it wasn't

going to read nsi one i would read the wisdom that these judges are handing down. the one thing that i do a little bit i was always remember that when you're a lawyer you may have 100 cases. your client has one and your client will take their kids out of school. they were changed vacations, modifying and think about you and what you are doing for them at times. and you know how important it is to your individual client even though you have been more. it is the same thing with judges and particularly on the appellate courts do have one case and it is important to you when you bring it up and tried to get her attention. it is important for us and seems to remember that. we may have 200 cases. you have one in your case is as important as every other case we are going to see in any given

session. i think when you have a bunch that keeps and i am not in focus is on each case individually, it is a good thing and when it's not it can be traveled. as an intermediate appellate court for a number of years before it came to the new york state court of appeals. as quickly as the appellate decisions get their cases done and now, sometimes those names -- i don't want to take advanced, but there's so much more work than a court like mine does, that we have the duty of when the registered applications to sort this out and remember that even though in the appellate courts they have two dozen cases, you have one and the one case may be important for the tigers day. so little bit of the transference to remember we are not dealing a volume here regardless of what the volume and. >> i am interested to talk about how discussions talked about collegiality in the synergy and the interaction of judges, how discussions with other judges

impact your decision making. judge kavanaugh to want to stay with you. do you ever speak with other judges before submission? what is your post submission conference process at? >> we typically do not speak with one another before the oral arguments. so the oral argument the first time that i am learning what my fellow judges might think about the case. that is important for lawyers to understand because you are in the middle of the commerce nation that is starting among the three judges on our appellate bench. so that conversation will start and i am learning at oral argument or my colleague has an interest in this. that conversation will then continue at our conference, which follows the oral argument where we discuss how we tentatively want to decide the case. at oral argument, but the lawyers say but also what my colleagues say in the conference

after larry's really does sometimes change your mind comes certainly refinancing income to change how the opinion might have been written, so it is to underscore what has been said a collegial process with the final product really does reflect the outcome of what you are learning from your colleagues. but the important thing to remember is that conversation is starting among the judges and you want to be part of that conversation if you could. >> judge martin, could you add to that? >> was really interesting. i served on to appellate courts on intermediate state-level appellate court with three-judge panels that changed each month and currently on a seven member en banc supreme court. emacs can be so different based upon the number of members on the panel or on the corner. and so when you think about the continuum within the united

states coming outcome of the panel at to the nine members precor situation with the nine-member situation the u.s. supreme court, relationships among the judges in assisting group every month despite the move in time together in tandem. as judge kavanaugh indicated, we take great care to not talk about the cases before we hear from the lawyers that argument appeared but after that takes place amid a preliminary consensus on how it should be decided, at that point you begin to see opportunities for the entire court to talk on occasions about a case, but also you will see where you cannot individual congress nation kameny b. with two justices, or a greater number. many times that process can be unpacked it by whether you have a division among the court, whether you're going to have an addition to the majority

opinion, possibly concurring or dissenting position. so i would say the larger the court -- you have a larger number of people were trying to come together and form make them face peers out from the adversarial standpoint, keep that aspect in mind. the larger number of judges you have to deal with, the more you really need to take care that each of the members of the court feel like you have engaged them any argument in the decisional process. >> and when there is a concurrence or dissent involved, how does the process is for or what is the process like in terms of discussions among the judges? viewable discussions, after post submission conference or does a lot of interchange happened when a purple and circulate. >> backup to the last question because in our court, most people do not discuss the cases before we go to oral argument.

that i don't see any problem in doing that occasionally you can highlight a fact or an issue that is at reticular can turn to one or both of the other colleagues. this comes out sometimes than the court sends a question out to before oral argument, made that someone has located an issue that we are really concerned about for a reason case that the council really need to comment should be taken very seriously. as for the concurrence and dissent process after you discuss the case after oral argument, the different shades of opinion will begin to show up and how to approach the case, what issue is important, whether an issue is properly raise in the district and so on. and so, the writing judge has the responsibility to try to fashion an opinion that will appeal to the panel, depending

on the deaths of the disagreement, however, the writing judge may know that another panel member is going to write a dissent in there for quite often you write with anticipating some of the dissent issues. i recently had a case that ended for quite quite a long time and i wrote a majority opinion, but i had to an factory two or three opinions in order to get another colleague on board and to respond to some issues that another colleague had raised and dissent. so it can be pretty involved. >> justice pigott, how does that process work quite! about the same. there are four appellate in new york, the judges seemed to me colborne harness and much more prepared at the time of oral argument they had -- i shouldn't say prepared, but they tend to know where they are going as an appellate court.

we like the rest don't talk about the case before him. we are going back next monday and i cannot ask us for some of my colleagues are going to be on some of these cases. i of course have worked on them with my law clerks. we have a rather steep traditional process of who reports a case in conference and then who ends up, should they be a dissent, who talks in what order and depending on where everyone is finding a combo who writes the majority, who rates the dissent and if there is a concurrence or not, so it is a rather arcane process that john jay is our first chief judge. i think he started all of that. >> one thing i am interested to know is whether you consider the broader implications of the case they maintain consequences if no one is talking about them in brief and argument, with a

normal judicial review and decision making, and you can do that? chief judge jones. >> it depends on the case. some cases are clearly tickets for this day only, where the issue is not well presented, when the case is just -- i don't want to tell you about one we just had, but clearly it is sort of a grudge case and you know, i have a strong resist and says to nearly all of my colleagues to try to make mountains out of mole hills legally. we do not pride ourselves in taking eighth arcades and turning it into a matter of great importance unless it really, really is a matter of great importance. but we have an idea of the ramifications, but at least it thoughts and we have an eye to the erinys that is vp for us.

and when we do have the cases that present broader implications, we like to see the lawyers broaden their focus beyond the fifth circuit to tell us what the other circuits are thinking about where when there are splits among circuit because that helps us in our decision-making is. >> when i am deciding the case, i am always thinking about the relevant text of the statute or regulation or constitutional provision in front of me. i am always thinking about the precedent we live in a system that is governed with each particular issue, we are going to have a body of precedent we have to operate within. at the same time, i am very cognizant that the decision committee opinion the issue will for for the rule of law that people will rely on and will try to apply in our case the court has a lot of administrative law

cases, you want a federal agency law action will depend on that. i am can turn was trying to set forth an opinion that is marked by rarity and workability in terms of what is going to have an. so will people know what the rule is and will this really work in the real world? and therefore in turn i am looking from the lawyer's argument and in that reads, what is the big picture here? how does this case fit into the big picture and telling me the overall context of if your rule prevails, how will this all work? and that is very important to my game and especially important to my approach to opinion writing, recognizing people for years potentially could figure out what did that mean and how did we live under that opinion? the more i can anticipate that and provide a clear role, the better i do my job, so i really

try and work on that. >> i want to address this from the first active of the appellate lawyer. i think it is critical to understand where the court you are handling your appeal, how does that fall and the tears? is it a first-tier appellate court? is a second-tier appellate court? having served in the two tears in my state, the first year is much more concerned with error correction and has much larger mandatory jurisdiction docket, where litigants are there via a statutory notice of appeal is anyway to bring their appeal they are. when you get to the second-tier and you see a greater portion of the docket discretionary search, of course the ultimate example of that is the u.s. supreme court. see supreme court's revering degrees of mandatory jurisdiction versus discretionary jurist diction. so the more the docket are cases

where the justices actually make a decision. you're going to see public policy be a larger part of the traditional process. that case was selected for review because the court was concerned about the significance of the jurisprudence for that issue, potential conflict between the lower court decision and one or more of the decisions about core. and finally you have public-interest aspects that enter into it. i think if you have a case where the court did not have to hear your appeal and you've made it through that round of determination that the court will order the full briefing and will always eat concerned about broader implications of your appeal. that does not mean if you have a case on point of course, how often will the case be selected for review under that actuation? and how often it is more typical

of that there is a degree of gray area here and so the court is going to be highly interested in the impact of the resolution of this case i'm not affect about legal landscape. >> we get a lot of situation we are on the leave application, the suggestion is there are no implications beyond these parties. and if that is true, generally we will not take it. so is judge mark is saying, if we take it and it's usually because we are more interested in the broader implications of the case. we do get some cents up from the appellate division himself which is interesting because it is important to them. the best advice i give state lawyers and they have become to court is the there is a division between the appellate divisions, that is great news if you want to, because we always try to straighten them out with the

first, third, fourth department to see if we can get them to agree. >> from abroad urge the more obscure, when a case involves scientific or technical concept with which you are unfamiliar, haven't run into them before, how do you become informed? to you rely solely on the brief? dvd cases in more detail or the record? you perform any independent research to figure out just the basic scientific con that? how do you approach that when it comes before you? let's start with justice pigott. >> i genuinely rely on the litigant. i made this mistake all the time when i was a lawyer. and that is relying on the medical records for what to medical records say. i put in there that the doctor did a baginski test and i had no idea what it dubinsky test, which is tickling the bottom of your foot by the way. when we get them in you trying

to decide these things, we don't know that death. and i think lawyers to take the time to realize that these judges probably don't know any more medicine than i do in a coefficient of friction than i do to explain those entities are not better is a great idea. we don't have a lot of time nor do we have a lot of inclination to coeducation yourselves because we are trying to focus on the law. what you can do is defeat yourself without even knowing it by allowing a judge to say i don't know what he's talking about, but that doesn't fit within the case in the finder's up losing because somebody is too lazy to read the signs, which is probably me or someone else. so i think it is a good idea to not count on it to go do it and do it yourself. >> this issue creates quite a challenge of the legal system. i'm the one hand, we want our judges well-informed about

finance and other areas before making decisions that will have such a great impact. on the other hand, to the extent we have independently coming in now, on the internet or anywhere trying to the science and cells, it creates situations for the advocates don't have a meaningful opportunity to be a part of that is. so i am saying all of that to emphasize to counsel that it is very important for a pellet lawyers not to make any assumptions. you have been working with that case for some period of time. maybe not multiple years. if you handle it the whole time, you know about the case and at times we begin to make assumptions that everybody knows some of the basics that i have taught myself. that is not necessarily going to be true. make sure you don't assume the judges know everything about the field of science that is going

to be relevant to the resolution of your appeal and try to walk through the bases in your grief. maybe you'll end up footnoting information for referring the judge to receive source for more examination. but be cognizant of the fact that the judges are not necessarily always going to have the same expertise as you have in the scientific field. >> i think your question raises more broadly the point that we are generalized as my colleagues have been saying. we are dealing with a huge range of issues on a daily or weekly basis and oral argument and for lawyers are the x words and it's the jobs of the best appellate lawyers to bridge this gap and bring their expertise for a generalist done with a lot of different issues that we can enders and. that is the scale should be able to communicate this complex

issue but the communicate and break it down and pick up very quickly. we would like to become experts in everything, but that is the goal. you were going to have spent months or years on something we will have in our argument on and also in the south to be to bring the case into the level level that a generalized can appreciate it. >> i don't have much to add it up a clip and a caution about for a non-because as you know when the federal courts, foreign mom is a proof of fact to be identified by use of expert testimony and extrinsic sources. we have had a couple of cases where the parties have been really pretty efficient in team that foreign mom for a no wave

that we thought was sufficient. and the court it appears under rule 441 is entitled to go out on their own, which i'm sure most of your counsel would not like us doing. [laughter] and my general quit on this area is one of our judges often does put it down with a little goat could need it. [laughter] >> when the lawyers are trained to get the specialized concepts across and to educate health, one thing that is tempting these days that the advance of technology -- not absent, the continuing development of it is to cut and paste things from the record, a photograph of a scene or a diagram of the machine that is involved. when does things are put into a

wreath as opposed to being attacked in appendix coming to find that helpful to the extent you were in profit does it come across as gimmicky and like you are trying to use the new pds profit? anyone can take that. >> i love it. i'll review the lake you are athletic or at least understands words. one of the things that i want to mention to you is that everybody looks at the rules of the court. what you ought to do. but you don't go play tennis. you don't play golf and baseball, saying the rulebook says is make sure you don't do that. it elected to the stars are in any sport, they're the ones who know the rules but then played the game. and i don't mean to suggest that this is a game. but you want to win. and when you want to win, you can do anything within the rules they'll get the attention of the

judges and promote your case. and i think the first time i saw an embedded photograph in a brief, i thought it was great. i mean, it's there. there are judges that take their briefs, believe it or not, when they are working now. they don't take the record, but they've got their briefs. so if you've got to the case, if you got the picture, he got the piece of evidence as long as it's on record an appeal in part of your brief come you've done yourself a great service. i think if you focus on the idea of getting your point through these judges can you focus on it come you do a lot of that is a helpful to me. >> how has electronic briefing effect did the way that you read the briefs, analyze the case. one person mentioned announced earlier and there have been comments from other judges

aren't very helpful because you have to scroll down the screen and scroll back up to see them. electronic briefing impacted your view in anyway? >> well, our court just purchased ipads and the last few months and among the uses we have for the ipads is you can download all of the reason the record asked. and that has enabled me to prepare further in advance for oral argument by reading those things online. i am still getting used to it, but i found that aspect of a traumatic devices very help slow and not had a problem with footnote anymore than i would ordinarily have a problem with people who stuff their argument into the footnote or try to distinguish the opponent's argument only the footnote. so i am going to the tent in any

event. in fact, we are even talking about -- and scores some some have done that, allowing lawyers to hyperlink cases, which will be a real step forward and away. but i don't see a systemic change based on the electronic devices. >> we are using it a lot more is chief judge john said, but i like her, don't think i can see how it is changing how we go about things other than it is easier to read instead of locking the briefs on a train or plane, and his lackeys here and now to have access to them at all times, but in terms of how that will change to asian making, i think you want other than make us more efficient, which i said at the outset is an important value that we all

have, which is getting to be as efficient as possible and getting our work done. >> well, like chief judge john, we now have ipads aired i brought mine with you on this trip since i have argument on monday. so i think it has facilitated the judges being able to better prepare for argument. everyone in the room has used computers, has you ipads. i think the real challenge for judges preparing in that way was when a comparison of two documents beside each other with the hopeful. under the circus dances, inc. the way where you can hope the judge to the collateral matter and be a part of the briefs. maybe there is an excerpt or some degree of the document. but just keep that in mind when sometimes there are limitations and how the electronic media can be utilized when you start comparing different documents. that is an area challenge that

we having a poly salt. i think hyperlinks and some that have suggestions to chief judge john says that will be beneficial once it has perfected. >> i think most of my colleagues on the left tronic mandatory filing briefs and record. the one thing is i used to complain about the record on appeal and sometimes the way they were bound, it was hard to reach some of the documents and that has been cared we are still struggling. i have a flash drive in my pocket. it is, and obviously. you're advance of us, but i would keep in mind you're dealing with people who have grown up with pencils. >> talk about the materials for review are preparing for argument. when you pick up when you start

fresh on a case or at any point in the process, and to you the disease with the trial judge was on the panel below. the author may be a little more obvious at the lower court's opinion. does that impact your decision making about click >> yes and yes. >> i always look -- [laughter] i am not sure. i look at the substance of the issue and get into the attacks on press and certain judges divall habits or reputations for certain things so you are aware of that, but ultimately you are deciding the issue based on your undervaluation. now if it use of discretion review or some in-line that, i

guess one could say you are lucky and not how this judge handled the pen this judge has made a similar mistake in the past. i want to quantify that it has an impact on the decision. >> well, i guess i would like to think that for the rule of law to work appropriately as between various courts in hierarchal structures for appeal, that you really don't want to focus on who authored the lower court opinion selected panel of selected panel of selected panel of to not consider that. sometimes as judge kavanaugh you may house a particularly close question were at the end of the day you are wondering, you know come is this really the ferment for his is the reversal. so i think it only helps in a

positive way at times at least when you have one of those poise situation then you know you have a very talented index. judge at the lower level that you might tend to give it a more at the top before reversing that decision. >> intermediate appellate courts look at them all the time. when i was on the court's department in rochester and in much of upstate new york amino acid judges and so you see the cases. the intermediate appellate courts in new york have much more power than the court of appeals. they've interest of justice, jurisdiction, fact-finding jurisdiction and so it is important i think when we were doing not to know what the judge was then you have her son -- he of respect for them all. [laughter] and it can have an impact when you're in the discretionary field. and the court of appeals we try to avoid 1300 trial judges in new york.

i don't know the ones in manhattan. i am from buffalo, but i know them and my colleagues from new york city don't necessarily. what is nowhere near as important when you get to the highest court. but in the intermediate, i think it is very important in all of you know that and i enqueue probably spend as much time as you need bringing forward to the judge is when you make your appeal. >> when you have an appeal that has a lower court opinion, whether it's from a district court for an intermediate court, do you start with a lower court's opinion or do you start with the appellate briefs for petitioner's brief or do you go back and forth. i'm interested in how that is mr. pie. just to set to appear the >> i start with the previous court decision and then i do the same thing with the appellate one. one of my colleagues and i just

know how he does say, he goes back to the original papers and he sat as if he was a judge and how he would decide. i generally do that because it is a very issue narrowing exercise. when you look at the appellant brief, hopefully they corresponded the issues he thought were important and go from there. that is what i do. >> well, i always try to start by reading the appellate brief. the party who took the action to bring the issue to my court. and once i have read the appellant's brief, try to get a sense that the team of the appellants, the theory of the appellant's appeal. then i go and read the brief of the party who is trying to uphold the lower court decision. how they responded to the assertions made by the

appellant. finally, even before it don't look at the record at that point i will look at the lower court decision to see what s. bond to score. to that process and once i have looked at that decision, then i will go look at the pleading, the record to get a better sense of the background of the case. i think everybody on this panel are always aware of the fact that behind every case the real people and that story cannot be fully told until you have examined all relevant documents. >> i will usually look quickly at the appellant brief dispute the issues are and then go back to the district court opinion that could be the case to address six issues but only two of them are on appeal. so if you start with a district court opinion, you might miss that. i will usually take two of the issues and then use that to focus, but that is a very important starting point in my thinking about the case. of course someone ask him a

judge who took the time to go through the whole case and spend a lot of time on it and write an opinion is critically important part of my human decision-making process. the >> i agree with brad. i go about it the same way. i look at the issues on appeal and then i look at the low court opinion. and let me just add that while it is always interesting to see which judge wrote a lower court opinion, they are all entitled -- the judge's opinions are entitled to equal weight in our court and a lot of them are quite well reasoned. so we look at those very carefully. but one more point about the fact that appellate judges may occasionally be concerned about the identity and the predilection of a lower court

judge that offer concerned counsel and the council should never argue it curious in terms of what this came out from the famous judge someone's though, we have a weight, nod, nod, a very bad form. >> what triggers you to go look at a record before argument if anything? >> if our court had more time, we would look at a lot of the records before oral argument now that the records are all available online. a lot of our law clerks to infect examined the record before oral argument, although he never willing to fully vouch for the way a law clerk at the other record, but that has been a powerful tool to assist us. i didn't think it would be, but it has been. when the parties can't agree on what the facts are, then you have to look at the record and that is a very distressing

situation because the brief set to at least agree on a certain universe of what happened at the trial court and sometimes they don't. >> oftentimes an issue will be raised on appeal that was raised in a different way in the lower court. so for me i find it useful to go back and see how this issue was per trade to the district judge and appellate counsel not surely if that loss they may have a tiff approach on it feel to presenting the issue, but it is helpful to go back for me to look at that as well as to look at other aspects of the record that are put together in the appendix is a standard part of the decision-making process to review what the parties have put together as important from the record for the decision. be not well, i'll just quickly elaborate on key points of authority been made. it is so important for counsel to make sure that they convey the facts accurately in their

briefs. and when that doesn't happen, it is always uncovered because on an appellate court after argument, there is a very painstaking and thorough meticulous process to make sure every aspect of the record is examined. some of that going into it. i think it is an area of significant challenge for appellate courts because there is no way pre-argument that you can examine every record. but i think the lesson for appellate counsel as please know that it will be examined. so when there is a difference between how it was represented at argument, what is ultimately found to have a very profound impact on the resolution of the appeal. >> ebt is in depositions and things like that i don't read much in the pleading, et cetera are there. but in terms of the actual hard evidence, i like looking at pictures and medical records.

i like looking at affidavits of experts and things like that. and one of the things i would suggest, but one of the frustrating things is when you look at photographs and soreness at a copy to black-and-white photograph or even a color one that looks like a washout test and you can't tell what the point of it was. but i think this early for me to get into the courtroom to what the actual thing is because these are the real records upon which the oral arguments in the groups were made here so i just get a kick out of it. i think that is true with the number of our judges and the right in doing it will simply look at what you are saying and talking about in your brief because they are among courts and they now make decisions based on the law. >> with regard to the decision making process you haven't oral make the argument.

if the case involved an issue of first in question or an area of unsettled thought, how much if at all as plain old common sense or pragmatism factor into how you resolve that issue? >> and our court, the element depends on the judge and to some extent it is a matter of the last fee. on a number of levels, you can have a case that presents a novel issue, but it is a very small case and i would distinguish this view of pragmatism fundamentally from judge kozinski of pragmatism to which i do not prescribe. the pragmatism can be taken on the level of, is this something where the law is profited by writing some bold new role that might or might not advantage this particular person if it has

not been well presented, has not been more presented in the lower court. and thinking to some extent on the pro se and the prisoners take litigation. pragmatism can take the form of, well, and of course -- decembrist active, we are the second busiest appellate court in the united states prejudge. the 11th is by far the busiest. we are very kind to her judge based says. so we have to move cases along. and when -- when something is fact specific, maybe a commercial dispute the fact specific reasonably well handled in the trial court, the issues are unique to that case, such as the interpretation of the

contract. pragmatism suggest you dispose of the case in a very efficient way as quickly as possible. other pragmatism can take other forms, which i'm sure the other judges will talk about and how does the case come out, how much should you write, what aspect should you focus on? so it is a very difficult thing to try to quantify it to me. >> i agree with all of that. i do think common sense, to use the term you use, should play a role in how we think about how this is going to work. as i said the interpretation of the tax issue, the president at issue, but how it is going to work and therefore it is going to be completely nonsensical results in the real world hurdle that probably means we need to rethink promises about how we

are going about it and therefore as an advocate to underscore something i said before, to tell us how this all works and woodwork and different approaches and problems with the other side's position. it would mean the thinness and recall solve these problems. those are important to highlight. we want to be informed by common sense and i think everyone likes their decision to be right on the wall and it is going to work. >> cases the first impression. so it is going to be critical for appellate counsel to determine who are the arbiters, who are the heirs? what are their life experiences? how will they be brought to bear on this with first impression decision? i have heard many, many times from college this does or does not make sense and i believe we are talking about common sense and people make these kind of

assessments. the only thing i would add is once you get to a second-tier appellate court, you know, the judges are just as this are very interested in how is this particular case -- how are we going to place this in the legal landscape? how is the internal logic of the legal landscape going to be affected by this decision? so i think there's a lot of other factors in common sense, but clearly that if the variable considered in these first impression cases. >> i like that question. someone once said that the love, and sense as amended by the legislature. [laughter] and i don't think kirsten, you're asking us to say we are not a common sense court, but we do use common sense. i'm cases of first impression, for example, we decided gps about two years ago. what we did is decided under new york state constitution so we would not have to be confused by what might happen later on in

washington. and we said you do need a warrant. but it was a question of first impression for us. are you obviously -- mean, we all have constitutions et cetera that we work on. and it is kind of fun at that time because it is when all seven on our court are digging in on these issues. we did gay marriage not to undergo and they are very spirited and it's really an enjoyable thing and of course we borrow from our federal courts in college course around the country when and if we can. >> now that we have the internet in so many ways of collecting opinions, there is no such thing as an unpublished opinion and courts use unpublished opinions. how does the use of unpublished opinions factor into your decision making process? >> well, that is a very important question.

all the circuit courts believe now hold a quote of unpublished opinion is not presidential. and the courts have different rules about what that means in our court and means it is not to be cited for precedent except in instances of related litigation or res judicata. arafat agreed to get citations to federal appendix cases. even more disturbingly get citations to unpublished cases from other circuit courts, which i'm sure would be just as disturbing to them to see cited. it is a matter of necessity given the volume of decision-making now a days. no circuit courts cannot keep up the presidential value of everything that is published and therefore we have to do certain

things that we consider to be nonpresidential. we are consistent with those authorities, but don't set too much by then if you do have a game on point on the fifth circuit opinion, please cite it, but do not expect us to treat that with the same dignity that we treat our published opinions. and in the decision-making process, sometimes we will decide initially that a case we think we can handle this as an unpublished case, which means in a fact specific way, cover and bake clearly well-known lawn and therefore nothing is of legal interest. but if any single judge but then the court or even not on the panel cannot for the case to be published and also the lawyers can ask for it to be published

up to word. so those are backstops. so we would hope in part, sufficient controls on the unpublished talks. >> well, i serve on a court where every determination we make is published. and so, i don't currently have that issue. when i served on our intermediate court of appeal at the state level, we had most dispositions who were unpublished opinions. i think it is an area of turning our legal system because our common law evolves through the publication decisions that deal with fact patterns. but i also recognize chief judge jones point about the incredible number of cases. so i think which are his fiction have to take a careful look at is how can you make sure that when counsel examines the facts and science is perfect decision

that turned turns out to be unpublished, is there a mechanism for counsel to move for publication or some other rule, where that decision can be utilized in the adversarial process. >> well, we are a common law state. all of our decisions in the appellate divisions, all four of them are published. i'm trying to think he values that are written now. because select opinions from our previous court that are published in the miscellaneous section. and on top of that, those that are not published in a lower court, trial court judges wish to a published come in many of them are online to wewoka mama. mostly because we are, ma and sometimes trial judges write wonderful opinions on specific facts or specific issues they find helpful. so we have no restrictions on now. >> i want to give you all the opportunity to just give us any observations you may have for us about your decision-making

process were things that we can do is lawyers to help you in that process. judge kavanaugh. >> it is important to quote fairly and accurately the text of those in question. it is important to be candid. it is important for us to be candid. it is important for the lawyers to be candid. sometimes the case not a lot of times we'll let you know that my reading is 100, zero or 99 to close cases, but we have to be candid about what is the better reading and so to the lawyers have to be candid about what is the better reading. do not -- this goes to judges so i'm talking to myself, but also lawyers, and do not stretch a precedent for the meaning of a statute to not ellipses the key

qualifying phrase -- [laughter] in the precedent to which every time i see an ellipsis in a court, i immediately look at the case to see exactly what ordinate statute because so often that is where the bodies are buried in this case is. you left out that key part. so, the text is critical, quoted in full, quoted accurately to be candid with the court. but old truth may be in a false defense case, but it's not necessarily could track this, but misleading in context is not good for judges. that is the standard i set myself. lawyers also should be aware of not trying to mislead the literal truth that is misleading in context. and then, civility is important as well. i think are the lawyers, chief judge jones talk in your brief earlier about not trashing the lower court judge.

that is important for lawyers and make it as a judge, and my decision-making, i try to always keep the code toward the lower court judge and towards my colleagues as respectful as i can, realizing, number one, that is the way i like to be. and number two, i think that also helps an example for a profession that means more stability. stability doesn't mean giving up your principles. it doesn't mean giving up your position, but it does mean for me trying to always display respect for the opposing position for the counsel of a court judge. so those are some random thoughts and conclusions. >> judge martin. >> well, judge kavanaugh had a number of good recommendations, so let me just try to add a few more. i think it is important whenever possible to develop an

affirmative reason, what i call eight name, for why the court should rule in your favor. and once you develop the theme, the whole focus of your document is to then give the court a foundational blue printer outline of how an opinion could be written in favor of your client. in cases where the precedent is unclear, consider developing the factors that you think the court should consider in resolving this case because the appellate court is going to be very concerned about what items should be given to lower courts, to litigants for the resolution of future cases that may arise in that area appeared i can't stress enough judge kavanaugh's focus on stability. as the legal community, we are part of the greater society but has to struggle with that at times. and i know in my jurisdiction

that most of the appellate counsel will appear before my court again. and so, be very cognizant of the fact that obviously you want to sell us to advocate on behalf of the client at this time. but if you are planning the future of the court, you also want to be focused on maintaining and enhancing your credibility with that panel. ..

>> i want to see what we're doing, so i like seeing that. i always like to see the defendant called the defendant, not an appellant or respondent or dash dash because when you put that in, i have to put and change it in order to understand it. if you focus on the idea of winning the case and make it readable and do effective things, you think of more than i suggested, that are effective and get your point across to the court is helpful. one last thing about the state of new york, love to have you there, is we're live on the internet. our oral arguments, monday, at two o'clock, live on the internet, and all cases are archived, so if there's a products liability case or something like that, and you wanted to see what the oral arguments were like, get them from the internet. our staff and everybody are good

at this, and it's all there. >> i don't have much to add to the fine comments. i would say if a case is called for oral argument in the 5th circuit, that is a very important decision. there's some judges on our court who would, given the chance, would hear few oral arguments, and there's with different views of things, so we do not take cases for oral argument lightly, and that means essentially the appeal is up for grabs so that gives a very important opportunity for counsel to make the best case and therefore you think most counsel prepares seriously for oral argument and 80% of the cases, they do, but it is a matter of great consequence this our circuit, and really effects the decision making. the briefs are important, but so

is the oral argument, and focus on two things -- number one, the record, know the record even if you're apell lant counsel, you need to know what the trial court did, and as if you had been there yourself, and number two, focus on what your best case is. quite often, a judge is confronted with good briefs with many, many authorities, it's just going to throw up his or her hands before preparation saying, well, what's the important case here? throw us your best case, and put that forward immediately. >> we want to thank you so much for your time in sharing with us your thoughts about judicial decision making, and thank you, all, for joining us for the discussion. it was great. [applause] what's ready for action? >> well, it's a busy week in the house as they head towards their

thanksgiving break. they are going to be -- the house republicans and the conference committee is unvailing what's known as a minibus that's expected late tonight setting it up for a vote in the house later this week. they will also -- that will also include a short term resolution to fund the rest of the government through december 16th to give them time to work on the bills that have not yet passed the house and senate. >> first, what bills will be covered in this conference agreement, that first minibus? >> caller: well, it's going to be the department of agriculture, transportation, housing, urban development, commerce, and justice. they had been talking about the homeland security and legislative branch funding, but that has been taken out because of a continuing dispute over disaster aid funding opinion >>

you mentioned the short term resolution for spending for the agencies not included so far in spending bills. how long, what time frame will the short term bill cover? >> caller: that'll go through december 16th, so that's going to be just about a month, which will take them up to when both the house and senate hope to be breaking for the rest of the year and the holidays, so the goal is to then use that month, most of it being after they return from thanksgiving, so at the beginning of december for the next two weeks to hammer that out, but, of course, when we get near the holidays, oftentimes, these are extended, so i don't think anybody will be surprised if there's another short term bill for a week or so heading up towards christmas. >> what problems, if any, are republican leaders anticipating within their own party about approving another short term spending bill? >> caller: well, to begin,

nobodiments another short term spending -- nobody wants another short term sphending bill in the context of doing these for a year or more, and every time the congressional leaders say this is the last one, and then, of course, it's not, but specifically, the problem that house republican leaders are having is similar to what they've had before with the conservative members of the caucus who want a lower, more spending cuts. the house republican leaders greed to an overall spending cap of $1.043 trillion for fiscal year 2012 as part of the debt ceiling deal in august, and conservatives want them to go lower than that, but the house republican leaders say they are sticking to the deal that they agreed to with democrats earlier in the year. >> how about the deficit reduction committee? how's their work going? >> caller: well, they are continuing to meet, not as a full committee from our understanding, but they have been meeting in small groups,

having one-on-one conversations, but not all 12 behind closed doors in room, and that's been the pattern for the last couple weeks. it's crucial for them with the deadline a week away because they have to unvail something if they get a deal 48 hours in advance of that deadline on november 23rd. they are continuing 20 meet, but we've heard no signs of breakthrough yet today. >> russell berman is a staff writer for the hill, thank you. >> caller: thank you. >> most people probably think of doa as a broadcaster on short wave with huddled mass in eastern europe listening to the radio and if the secret police might come. that's an out of date image now. >> david on the changing face of voa. >> we are now on facebook, twitter, satellite tv, we're on

fm radio. we have a lot of affiliates now around the world, stations, radio, television stations that use us as a washington news bureau for them. we have a lot of new ways to communicate with people, but the mission has pretty much stayed the same. >> the communicators tonight at 8 eastern on c-span2. >> with one year before election day 2012, the national journal hosted a forum focusing on the road to the white house and the

congressional seats in play. next, a discussion with republican staffers from the grand hyatt hotel in washington, d.c., this is an hour. >> and we're back. thank you, guys, for setting up the stage. we have a very interesting and dynamic group coming up. as many of you know, national journal covers issues and trends impacting america and the make up of congress in 2012, perhaps no issues are more dominant nationally than those related to housing, the economy, and the unemployed. we appreciate the partnership of the national association of home builders to help highlight these important issues. joining us today is jerry howard, ceo of home builders, a lifelong advocate for home building and housing. please welcome, jerry howard. [applause]

>> i want to thank victoria and the national journal for allowing nhp to co-sponsor this important event. as victoria mentioned, while the economy is the fundamental issue in the forthcoming elections, never before have we seen such a tie to the economy, and not just housing. housing has always been a significant element of our economy, 18% of the gdp when running on all cylinders, but if you travel outside the beltway now and talk to voters, talk particularly to a highly motivated large block of voters like baby boomers, most of whom still have jobs and own homes. they are concerned about the fundamental asset they built their nest egg around, the concern of the value of their house, and even in markets where foreclosure is not a problem, and understand that 70% of all foreclosures have taken place in only 11 states.

there's 38 states out there who foreclosure is not the problem, but declining house values is. now, clearly, the administration has not taken this problem head on yet. they have talked about the foreclosure issue, but not about the other elements that are causing america's house values to decline and keeping us stuck in recessionary times. neither has the congress, unfortunately, and to date, none of the candidates, either republican or the president, announced a plan to tackle the overall housing problem. we believe that there cannot be fundamental economic recovery until every american has reason to believe that the asset that they have been encouraged to build their retirement around is going to stabilize, until they stop seeing declines in housing in markets where they should be a demand for housing, until policymakers bring capital back into the marketplace, until they stop making it more difficult

for the young people to buy home, and until housing takes its place back as part of the fundamental fabric of our economy and the fundamental part of america's social fabric. i thank you, all, for being here and i thank the journal for letting me have this three minute commercial, and i want to welcome the panel. amy walter and beth rhinehart, thank you, all, very much. [applause] >> we're going to ask everybody to come and get micked. gentlemen, come up. we're very exciting. there's a great group looking at the gop primary and what's going on in the republican campaign trail. joining us this morning is mark macintosh president for the john

huntsman campaign. chief strategist for bachmann. jesse benton, national campaign chairman for congressman ron paul. robert walker, adviser for congressman newt gingrich. john braybender, media consultant to senator rick san sanatorium, and thank you for joining us this morning, and thank you, ladies, for leading the discussion. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> all right, i want to welcome the panelists. we know it's terribly inconvenient to take time out right now from the campaign, so we really appreciate you all being here, and you sharing your innermost secrets with us today. >> this all off the record, by the way. [laughter] >> nobody's going to see this,

so any news you want to break, i won't tell anyone. so we are going to start off with mark brock. we feel you have not gotten enough national attention lately. [laughter] we wanted you to have your turn today, but obviously, your candidate was of the big news maker in the last 24 hours, and when you were interviewed about it, you know, you said that mr. cain had never sexually harassed anybody, case closed, and cain who was in washington yesterday said the same thing saying he knew of no settlements, but his story changes. he did remember details about one of the settlements. my question is how do we know that this is the end? like, can you guarantee there is not more information that is forthcoming about his past or

have we heard it all? >> i think the statement would be is that mr. cain has never sexually harassed anybody, period, end of story. as the hours go by, it's interesting that we even hear from a radio talk show host in iowa that the receptionist thought that mr. cain's comments were inappropriate. if we have to spend every hour, every day responding to these ridiculous accusations, it takes us off our message and our campaign, so my statement will stand. mr. cain has never sexually harassed anybody, period, end of story. >> so do you think, then, we -- this is the end of the story

then? done. >> done. move on. talk about what the american people want to hear about, and that's jobs, jobs, jobs. >> do we think that we're going to -- can you guarantee 100% we're not going to hear from anybody else? >> amy, what didn't you understand about what i just said? >> i don't know. >> we'll go back to the second one. >> all right. let me move to rob johnson for a second, rick per rei campaign. there's a video now that made the viral rounds of your candidate, the new hampshire this weekend, very animated, a lot of people asking what was rick perry doing and so soon to be a side of him we have not seen before. can you explain what that was? was he just having fun with this or is there something else we

should know about rick perry? >> no, i think it was a great event. the governor was very comfortable, very passionate, and very engaged with the crowd in talking about his message of getting america working again. it was a great event. we got great feedback, and he's just a passionate speaker and comfortable in his own skin. >> we hope his viral goes more viral than mine. [laughter] >> have to have a cigarette to do that. is that a follow-up? >> he will not have a cigarette at his next speesh, no. >> are you concerned this, on top of the debate preferences leads people to the assumption that this is a candidate who gives very different sides of himself in different places, that there's not really a consistent rick perry right now? i mean, he is getting mocked for

it more than embraced for that appearance. >> no, i think the map stream media wants to make issues where there are not issues, and there is no issue. the governor is a passionate speaker. hehe is a strong leader. he's an authentic conservative, and has a consistent message of getting america working again, so i think a lot of times, the press and the washington establishment try to make issue where there is no issue, and this is one of those cases. >> okay. we're going to talk to the next question for the romney campaign represented by congressman weber today. we appreciate you being here. >> i'm not going to smoke a cigarette either. i told mark was offended by that ad because republicans are supposed to smoke cigars. [laughter] >> the "des moines register" poll this weekends showed your

candidate on top. give us one reason we shouldn't expect governor romney not to win the iowa caucus? >> i'm from a caucus state that's close to iowa. there are two factors that really dominate in caucuses. one is ideological motivation, and second is organization. i have to say i think there's a couple other candidates with strong ideological motivated supporters in that state, and that might trump everything. we are -- governor romney has basically a 50-state campaign for the nomination. needless to say, we'd like it not to be 50 states, but we're prepared to go the distance if we have to. we are not putting all eggs in one basket, if you will, but he's competitive, and we'll see how it all shakes out. >> as a follow-up to iowa, i wanted to go with the san tore ssh santorum.

i want to go down the row here too, but starting with you because your candidate has spent more time in iowa than anybody else. he's been to 70 counties. >> actually a little more than 99, every county already. >> but he's been to 70 -- >> no, he made all of them. >> okay, all of them, and yet the two leaders of the iowa poll are those who spent the least amount of time in iowa. explain how that works. >> i want to congratulate the romney people for being first in the poll because they were also first in the poll of october of 2007 that didn't count for many. mike huckabee was 20 points behind in the october 2007 iowa straw poll, or, sorry, survey, and so what you see is that it is very earliment i think there's probably between now and the iowa straw poll at least ten debates. the people are undecided.

there's a plus and minus in the survey, it's two people at the top, and then you had everybody else after that, so i think people have to be very careful. in fact, if you look at the ames straw poll of people in the race, rick santorum came in third, which spending nothing, and one thing mentioned is that ideology matters in a place like iowa. people do care you have something you stand for, and so, you know, i think also being on the ground, they want to kick the tires, get to know you. i remember steve king, the congressman, saying to me once, here's who i am supporting, and i hope you support them as well. they turned to him and said, i can't yet. i only met them once. that's truly how the people of iowa look at it. that's why it's important, and that's why iowa should be the first in the country to make the decision as how seriously they take it. >> to follow-up on that, your candidate, actually, i think she won the straw poll? i heard that once or twice, and

yet there's somebody like the king campaign here saying that retail politic, the old-fashioned way of doing iowa or doing the campaigns as we've known them are not as relevant in this day in age, that there is an evolving in the way that voters are both getting and processing information and thinking about candidates, so should we be thinking about iowa differently, or is this door knocking campaign? >> well, i do think iowans take their speedometer very serious -- responsibility very seriously. media has to write a lot of up and down stories of the process. i think technology changed things. you don't have to be in the town to talk to the whole state. i think the internet changed things quite a bit. it makes it so every event we do in iowa, a lot of other people in iowa see it. it's not a media market only event, but i do think it comes down to meeting people, talking

to people, and the process has really only started. i'd say it starting right now. there's so many holidays between now and the caucus period. i don't think people have got their heads around focusing it yet. no one's focused, and i think we've have an exciting 60-some days of folks engaging in the process and listening to the debates. there's a lot of debates coming forward, but you have to meet folks when they focus, and i think they are focusing now. >> you are 100% committed to winning iowa? >> we're in iowa a lot. >> you have to win iowa? >> i think we have to do well in iowa. we're positioned to -- she's from iowa, and we're campaigning hard in iowa. our campaign started in jupe, and we're trying to win the caucus to the best of our ability, as that's what we're doing every day. >> can you continue past iowa if

you do not win the caucus? >> we're positioned in south carolina, new hampshire, florida, not a one-only state. we are announcing our south carolina team today. it's an odd question. i think we get that more than others, but we're positioned in all of those states and planning on being in them all. >> we're bringing 234 report, representing newt gingrich. same question your way. >> well, i think that newt is certainly moving forward, the campaign has momentum, in position to do well in iowa, and i think that his campaign is also showing strength in new hampshire and south carolina and while, you know, obviously, if -- would like to win those states, but finishing strongly in those states put him in a very, very good position. a lot of people in the country are looking at this field trying 20 decide who are the people who can make it all the way

through? you know, i think about the great horse secretary that some of you read the book and saw the movie, and stumbled out of the starting gate, but through grit and determination, he made it to win all three. this race is kind of a triple crown race. it starts with the media campaign that's on right now. move to the early primaries, and the primary season, and then finally to the general election, and i think there's a lot of people who are just looking at that general election saying who is it that we want on the stage with president obama defending our values? more and more newt gingrich is looking like the person that people would like to have there, and so if he does well and does strongly in these early primaries, i think he stands a good chance of being one of the two candidates that gets into the later going. i also agree that it is a

different kind of campaign this year, that social networks, the twitter, that a lot of these things are gipping to impact -- beginning to impact voters because they feel a personal relationship with the candidates even though they have not shaken their hand. i think that impacts new hampshire and iowa and plays a role throughout the campaign season in the ways they have not before. >> the debates play a key role. >> sure. newt gingrich does well in the debates, and that's why the question is coming up as to who do you want standing on the stage with president obama when we get to that stage? i think newt proved himself to be a person who is capable of being on the stage and winning those debates. >> and i just want to -- rob, one second now that i'm on the issue of debates -- >> uh-huh. >> and we know that earlier in the -- i guess it was last week, the perry campaign, even the

governor himself, musing publicly about the fact there's too many debates, may skip some debates, and a few days later you say you're doing all of the november debates, many of which are very close to each other and going to require a great deal of travel on your part, not particularly convenient, so, did you get spooked? is that what happened? there's folks saying, well, the reason he decided to do all of the debates is that the push back you got from people saying, well, he can't do that, he's chicken. >> no, no. look, i think we're the only one on the stage committed to all five. >> right. is anybody else doing all five debates? five in november. >> all of you? >> we're going to all of them. >> you're going to all of them. >> nice. >> i'm not aware that we said no to anything. >> okay. you're going to be in michigan? >> constant debates. >> don't you play the role of

herman cain in the debates? >> i don't think there's five debates this month. eng there's four. >> what's that? >> okay. so, anyway, we lost track now, but the point is you're doing all debates. >> all of them. >> even if you talked about maybe not doing them. >> we are going to make decisions best for our campaign, and we decided to do all the debates 234 november, and that's the end of the story, i mean, there's much to do about nothing. >> what changed? >> there's no change. the point is there are too many debates. i think everyone on this row would admit that 18 more debates between now and florida, which is january 31st, i think everybody agrees there's too many, but debatings are an important process, and we'll be there and participate. >> we love debates. >> i think we're happy rick perry will be there at the debates too.

[laughter] >> i don't understand. >> what does that mean; right? are you -- yeah, rights. can you talk about the fact that you all are doing well in iowa too. in third place in the iowa poll, consistently right around 10% and 12% in the national polls. do you have a feeling -- is that what's happening here? why can't we see more movement as other candidates go up and down, you have not been table to take -- been able to take advantage of the volatility here? >> i think that's pretty estute. we are building the best organization in iowa and new hampshire and building organizations that i don't think any other campaign other than mitt romney can match moving forward through january and february and march 6. this is a race of dell galts,

positioning ourselves to do well in iowa and new hampshire and win substantial deeing gats from early caucus states through march 6th. >> last time you guys stayed in this thing, almost the whole way. >> we'll wake up on march 7th, and we'll have a pretty clear picture. is there a republican nominee or is this a battle going forward? >> do you think it's over by super tuesday? >> could be. could not be. [laughter] we've seen every situation where there could be a nominee. there could be a knock down drag out fight through every primary through june. >> anybody else want to weigh in on how you see the early primary states, how that calendar is going to work? do you see it likely to be a pretty quick job? do you expect a drawn out process because of how it's been allocated this time around?

do you think florida is kind of the fire wall? can somebody get past florida www.winning the state? >> they lost half the delegates, and it's up in the air whether it's winner take all. it's not over yet. florida's very important, but that ball is still in play. >> i think there's a greater -- i listened to the last panel, and they thought it was over sooner than early. we would probably like that, but i think there's a greater chance than they thought it could go on a lot longer. candidates who have rather large support, and republicans have not shown an interest in going early up to this point, and at least it seems to me there's a chance that we could have something that goes on quite a bit longer than that, and the change of the delegate selection formula would add to that. >> i agree with that, but the early primaries could sort out

the candidates. they could find themselves without resources even if they want to go on, they wouldn't have the ability to do the kind of trial and outreach that campaign has to do to remain cred l, but i think that it's -- credible, but i think it's entirely likely that you could end up with two or three cap dates in competition that could go on for some time that narrows it down to two. i think that's a campaign that could go even into the cop venges. >> i want to -- i apologize asking a question your way, and this is a question more for you than the candidate. the "milwaukee journal sental" says they paid for about $40,000 worth of ipads and charter planes for the struggling king campaign. did the campaign reimburse that? how do you explain that, you

know -- >> i can tell you we have retained independent, outside council to take a look at the story in the journal and report back to us. >> this is your charity. do you know what happened? >> we have retained outside independent council to look at the milwaukee story and report back to us. >> okay, so were you responsible for doing the bookkeeping for the charity? >> amy -- >> no, i heard you, just -- >> let's talk about the campaign going forward. >> well, actually, that's a good question, so you've been very on message -- >> oim sorry? >> you've been on message with this panel. your boss is going on -- [laughter] >> [inaudible] >> you know, which is not as fun for us, of course, but your boss is about to do a slew of media

appearances today. is he going to give these same exchanges? is he closing the door today? no more? he talked about -- more details than you gave today about these charges on three shows. what more can we hear from him today? >> it's very difficult. i think all the panelists here will tell you it's difficult to hear what your question is. >> yeah. >> okay, sorry. the question is your boss is on tv a lot today. >> yes. >> he has been much more open and explicit in discussing these issues than have you. is he going to continue to do that today, or are we going to see the mark block answers coming from candidate cain? >> watch it throughout the day. as you saw yesterday, mr. cain answered any question put forward to him.

>> right. >> one of the things that we have done with him is obviously to tell the truth, get the story out there, and that's what he's doing. >> i guess i'll move on. mark, i know you were hoping to avoid a question, but we see you there. there's a video yesterday compares mitt romney to a weather vain, and this is a far cry from where you started out a few months ago promising to be the candidate of civility, not attack others, what happened? >> let's see. i'm the policy director of the campaign, not the strategist. most people don't want to hear from this guy, but i think the governor felt that it needed to be pointed out there's been shifting of positions with governor rome any and that it's important for each of the

candidates to maintain a level of consistency in their positions, and so that's giving the opportunity to make a good assessment on who they want to vote for instead of, you know, being in a position of not being quite sure what each positions are. >> to follow-up on that, and this is towards the policy. you defined yourself as the mainstream candidates who get democrats and independents. you said, yes, thank you very much. i believe in evolution. does this seem to be the right time for that message? i mean, the voters seem to be looking for something different than that this cycle. >> you know, i've been thinking about that narrative. the campaign that has the strategy, but the media has been fascinating for me on that because as getting to know governor huntsman, i, you know,

i obviously, did a lot of work reviewing his whole record, and surprisingly, he's got conservative on the record as most people on the stage relating to his governing in utah. people gravitate towards the science issue, and, you know, i think that's a personal issue for him because of the family's interest in cancer research, and so science is something that they take very seriously and listen to, you know, to scientists, and so i just -- it's -- while we are focusing on new hampshire, and, yes, that is -- it's an open primary that allows a lot of people to vote, you know, we're as much looking at the conservative vote as the independents, so you have to look at the broad spectrum of

governor huntsman's policies and kind of make that determination. you know, i tend to push back on the whole moderate narrative based on his past record. >> so, mark, then what is the governor's message? >> well, he's got a number of them. >> just pick one. >> i beg your pardon? >> just the chief one if you had to boil it down. >> the message is to get the country, the country is in -- it is in economic hardship right now, and there needs to be solid policies put in place that's going to ensure a vitality within the country for the 21st century, and that core principle transcends almost everything on the policy front whether it's

economic policy, foreign policy, and so his message is until we take care of things at home, it makes everything else we do as a global power difficult, so that is his message. >> okay. this is for the entire panel starting with you congressman. the super pack, a pro-perry super pack, the first of the super packs to really go up with a significant alibi. they are in iowa, south carolina, positive ads. when do you expect these other super packs to weigh in, if at all, and how long before the nicey-nice goes away, and we start seeing punches thrown? >> the question is when do we expect it? the answer is two weeks ago. you know, he dropped # in the polls. he's got a lot of money, and we

don't know how much because the super pack raises money more rapidly, but, you know, we are not looking forward to vicious negative assault, but -- >> [inaudible] >> yeah, some of us are in the campaign, others expecting it, others less exempting it. what governor perry is doing now is building himself up with his positives, but that's what you would do if anticipating negative attack because he was down into the single digits in most states outside the deep south, and that's not a position to attack. that would benefit newt gingrich or herman cain or somebody else. if you build yourself up and then attack, but we'd rather not see that, but that's what we are expecting. >> can you be a serious candidate in 2012 without a super pack?

nip want to take that? >> probably not. i mean, changes in campaign fansing, i don't like for reasons that they really are diminishing roles of political parties, and that has a lot of negative consequences, but it is what it is, and that's how we'll finance the campaign, and you can't do it seriously without a super pack. >> by election time next year, the story bb super packs, and they'll have a bigger influence on elections than states and the actual campaigns will before this is over. >> what about the influence of the party? is the republican party dead? does it have an influence? it influences the states about when to hold the primaries. you do debates when you want to do them without the pears telling you what to do or not to do. what does the republican party

stake hold for you guys? >> i think chairman prebus is doing a great job. we were exciting to move the caucus back to january 4th. that protected new hampshire's privacy and forces all candidates to compete hard in nevada for nevada cause cues goers. i think he uses good personality, leadership, the stick when he has it, and he's doing a good job of bringing people together. i'm very pleased with the rnc and the job they are doing right now. >> i won't praise chairman preibus because he's from wisconsin, but i will praise him for the fact that when i worked with him in wisconsin that he was one of the state chairman that really understood what the tea party movement or the citizens movement was all about and worked side by side with the

group that i was in charge of, americans for prosperity, in harnessing the anger or the fear of the people, and i think that the chairman is taken what he saw in wisconsin to a national level, and i give him a lot of credit for working with all groups and as many people that know me say we all need to play well in the sand box to win in november of 2012, and he understands that. >> i would take this question to any of y'all not from the romney campaign. that's the question looming over the race is who is going to emerge as the real challenger to governor rom nigh, and i argue i'm not sure any of y'all demonstrated that you can take on mitt romney, either in a debate or fundraising or an organization. are you saying there's more to come? can any of you persuade you

differently? >> shouldn't the question really be who will rise to challenge herman cain? [laughter] >> okay. >> let me -- >> yes, let's do it. >> well, but look, so you're making yourself the preemption of the front runner, and this is the problem for me. you guys go back on forth on abortion, one day pro-life, but then goes on tv talking about how pro-choice he is saying it's up to the family to choose. herman cain says, oh, i'm pro-life, end of story. those are the exact words. then we run into the same thing with a tax fighter and tax plan scored about 84% of the people get a tax raise. i'm a tax cutter, end of story. now we have the latest thing that happened, and he says i've never sexually harassed anybody, end of story. the point is everybody up here cares about one thing more than

anything else, and that's beating president obama, and whoever the nominee, they have to be well vetted, and what i encourage the campaign people to do if you are the front runner, plan to be the nominee, be forthcoming so we are vetted and we're not in a situation where your nominee, we find things after the fact. you said yesterday herman cain answered every question he was asked on the issue. the problem was the answers change during the day, and so if you want to be the front runner, i encourage you to help all rms beat president obama to ensure your candidate and campaign is forthcoming. >> i think one of the problems y'all have is we ran an unconventional campaign. if we're running such a horrible campaign, why do we continue to rise in the polls? why does his intensity factor continue to maintain or go up? we had one of the best online fundraising days yesterday.

we obviously aren't -- we're doing something right. >> how much did you raise yesterday? >> it was a quarter million online. >> and how does that compare to what you've been seeing over the last -- >> it was one of the best fundraising days ever. >> what does that say to you? >> that the american people are sick and tired of politics as usual. mr. cain is the only non-politician running, and his message of 9-9-9, jobs, jobs, jobs is resinating across the country. just look at the polls. y'all have done pretty intensive polls. ask the question of the intensity factor in these states. >> well, and here's the point though, the first vote isn't going to be cast until two months from now, so for people to sit up here and say that this race is here or this race is

there is absurd. it's ridiculous. a campaign is a series of events and a series of decisions, and the first vote is not cast for another two months. i think everybody needs to take a deep breath and say see you in iowa, new hampshire, and south carolina. >> i mean, i think it's clear that romney has managed to maintain a position of having 25% or 30% of the vote in polls steadily, and so on, and you have to believe that in the end, it is going to come down to romney and someone else, and that's going to be the real question, and then what's the message framed from that? i mean, do you want somebody who is 5 real change agent in terms of changing washington, or do you want someone coming in showing great confidence in managing washington or managing government, and therefore, being a good manager in washington? i mean, there better be key issues that are going to arise

at the point that those two questions come together and the two candidates come together, and i think what we're in right now is 5 sorting out period as so who is going to be that candidate of who is going to go through a series of primaries, not just the early primaries, but a series of primaries against mitt romney. >> i just want to say that i think the story line on this often has been wrong, not as you presented it today, but with all do respect to my friends, we've seen rick perry collapse down to single digits, bachmann down to single dints, herman cain may have troubles or not, and the story line is romney is not above 25%. you know, as if that -- that's a huge showing weakness in the race. i think these are all fine candidates. i think somebody will be a strong challenger, but i think the story line about this race has understated governor rome

-- governor romney's strength over a long prosecutor. >> what are we not seeing? is this a long campaign and people are just looking around 1234 >> yeah, i think -- >> are they looking because they are not happy with what they have? >> well, to the washington journal had a story, that i'm sure you saw, the polling does not really bear it out and show there's a massive dissatisfaction with governor romney or any of the other candidates. >> right. >> i think the country is in a foul mood for a lot of good reasons creating a real desperation on people's part to find the people that they think can get us out of the mess we're in, moves around a lot, and probably will as the speakers said, keep us moving around for the next couple months. >> i think the media's done a bad job of describing the field. it's been a very strong field and for some reason because everybody has a line up behind a

certain candidate and somebody has not walked away with it 60 days ahead of time, that's never happened in the history of primaries, somehow making it seem like that the field is weak, i think we have a very strong field of candidates with all sorts of backgrounds whether it's governor's background, people fighting in congress, private sector backgrounds, and it's been a discredit to the reporting of trying to describe this as a weak field just because somebody doesn't have 60% of the votes 60 days out is absurd. >> no, i think that's fairment i think the other issue that congressman weber raised, though, is how quickly, that seems to me the question for perry campaign, and for y'all is just not how quickly and volatile the polling has been. how do you go from being on top of the polls one week and at the bottom a week later? >> i don't think a lot of us are on air so how you answer two

questions on one debate move a poll in a given week. there's a lot of debates that move things around. i wouldn't look at the polls at all. polling a caucus state this early is kind of ridiculous, but we have not have over exposure except for in the debate scene, so i don't think it's been connected. the debate schedule and the campaign schedule have not quite connected, and i think you'll see that in the december. >> i was with the campaign last time, and the early polls, trust me, are not all that important. [laughter] >> you know, it's also, i think, a 235bg9 to some ex-- a fact to some extent the story line on this campaign has not yet gotten to where the american people are in this campaign. back in 2008, they are saying essentially the same thing now as they did in 2008 was that something's got to change, that the country is not competitive anymore in the world, and that

things have to change. the obama people were able to use hope and change as a great fanatic so it turns out they didn'tment to change washington. what they wanted to do was use washington to change america. well, i think a lot of country now came to the conclusion they want to keep america and change washington, and the first candidates that are able to articulate that in a real way to the country, i think, have a chance of emerging from this campaign or this primary campaign in a winning position. >> all right. we're going to turn it over to chris and rachel with the off news so we can hear from people following us online and in the audience here today. >> thank you. there's been several questions from the audience. first to mr. block, based upon your answer to the question about the possible, the investigation you set with the general council, they asked if you're independent council reveals the campaign accepted

illegal funds from the charity or later revealed that mr. cain paid off the accusers, how will you remedy the situation? >> we'll respond accordingly. [laughter] >> can you elaborate? >> no. [laughter] >> would mr. cain consider a third party candidacy in 2012? >> no. >> thank you. >> all right. this question -- we have a very diverse field, this cycle, and here in the room, most audience members commented that the state is comprised of white men. i was wondering your thoughts on that if anyone cares to respond. >> we got several cards on this actually. [laughter] >> is there -- [laughter] >> we're all white? >> if you look at the campaigns, there's actually more diversity than unfortunately is

represented up here today, so i think in fairness to the campaigns that if you look at a lot of the people in upper level positions in all the campaigns that this is not necessarily representative or reflective of the entire campaigns quite frankly or the candidates as bachmann and herman cain and others, and that shows this party in general, if you look all the way down the line does encourage diversity, and it's succeeding at doing that. >> [inaudible] >> i hope no one writes about my nails. >> can you e elaborate on your nails? >> [inaudible] >> jon, a question for you. you highlighted this briefly, but i want to expand on it. he's hard on herman cain for comments on abortion, and one said play said he's 100%

pro-life and then it's not up to the government to determine where life begins. has he done enough to clarify his position on abortion or will senator santorum say more about this in future ads or take him up on this in the next debate? >> well, i'm assuming that other people will take this up. i know on cnn last night, up on their website, there was the statements herman cain made on abortion, and they seem to be in great conflict with one another. as part of the process, it's a fair thing for people to ask campaigns to specify when they say one thing here and completely another thing here, why the difference? i think that for republican primary voters, the life issue is a 1r-r important one. i think it's one we certainly will not back away from, and i think we're still waiting for clarification from the mr. cain people. we're confused as ever what his position is. >> there's been e-mails out in

the past week, ads, we're going to hear more of this? you're saying he has not done a good enough job clarifying his stance? >> yeah, i mean, look, anybody who watched the debates, i think you see the senator is not afraid to challenge candidates where they have differing views. he did with perry on immigration, romney on health care, and i think he'll do the same thing any place where he is a difference with herman cain be it t.a.r.p., taxes, or the pro-life issue, and i think that should be important to republican primary voters because they want to make sure that they have a candidate who's the nominee not afraid to take on president obama and do it in an effective matter with debates in the fall campaign. >> what does mr. cain need to say? what more can he say? >> i mean, consistency would be wonderful. you can't repettively say that

it's up to the household to decide, it's up to the family to decide. it's their choice, and then over here is a that i'm pro-life, and so i would go as far to say on this particular issue, i'm not sure there's ever credibility. >> mr. block, we've been talking about your boss, would you like to respond in any way? >> mr. cain has stated that he's 100% pro-life from conception, period. >> end of story. [laughter] >> thank you. >> thank you. >> this next question 1 from the add convince -- this next question is from the audience. can you talk about some of the staffers to join perry's campaign, and how do you feel the staffers are doing now? [laughter] >> i didn't catch that. >> sorry. [inaudible conversations] >> oh, well, i think that rob

and some of the other were with newt early on had a loyalty to rick perry when rick perry decided to become involved in the campaign. i think they felt that that's where they could better serve, and we have picked up. we're staffing up the campaign as we speak, and all the early primary states, and, you know, we move on from there. >> how do you feel staffers are doing in their new role? >> how do you feel the staffers are doing now? >> oh, well, i think we're doing very, very well. clearly, the campaign has been moving forward. we have a lot of moe momentum. there is a very strong momentum for this campaign, and we think that if anything, we've got more momentum at the present time than rick perry does. ..

some of our strategy has been altered and moving around and based on the early primary stages and there's only so much time. we have a lot of debate but we are competing in new hampshire, south carolina, and in iowa street up. >> the national campaign is

based on a fault the grievances the new hampshire team put forward publicly last week? >> not at all. the person that put that out wasn't a member of our campaigns we don't even know who she is. >> a spokesman for that team? >> no, she is not a part of our campaign. >> the next question is for mr. johnson, the peery campaign. an audience member noted that there have been many reports that the jobs created in texas under the governor were either created by federal government dollars or part time part-time low-wage jobs. if that is a correct assessment? >> nope. it's just not true. >> is it misinformation or is their something they lost? >> it's just not true. the governor has refuted this and has made clear the facts are 40% of all jobs in the country were created since 2009 while

the current resident of the white house has lost 2.5 million jobs the environment governor perry helped create in texas has created a billion dollars. the focus and everyone on this panel is to beat barack obama, and we've got to have someone who can energize the economy, who can help get america working again, and that person is rick perry. >> we haven't forgotten about the ron paul campaign. i promise. i get e-mail's all the time saying we have but we are working on it. i hope he can help us compare this election from ron paul to the last election cycle. were there any mistakes made in 2008 that you have remedied this year or things you've done better? and also if he doesn't win the nomination, who do you think ron paul will put his support behind or will he consider a third-party candidacy as well? >> he is a republican seeking

the republican nomination as far as who he might put support behind if he is not the nominee we will have to see if a candidate can emerge that is serious about cutting spending. his planas to cut 1 trillion in one year, get the balance. unfortunately all we are hearing from other campaigns going around the edges we need to cut the spending now before we have a massive debt crisis and a run on the dollar before we destroy the dollar and see prosperity in this country to give major hit for a long time. so, yeah, i think we are doing a lot better in this campaign. we try to do everything better. are we doing this differently? we are doing what we are we're doing better. we are raising money, working harder. we have a media team. we have more professionals involved in the campaign. at the same time we are working to maintain our authenticity, our grass-roots intensity and the things that made our 08 campaign so special.

we are very pleased in this campaign. if you look at the candidates i think that have a sense of path to the nomination, ron is the only candidate that fought against t.a.r.p. and opposed it. the 2010 election cycle was largely about an outrage among the grassroots americans at bailouts, bailing out banks, taking care of wall street, and doing that on the back of the middle class, and we are going to get out that message that if you want to get the budget on the control you want to and the bailout, and you want to restore what made america so great. >> how does the proportional -- i'm sorry, did you want to add something? >> a lot to make clear governor perry is 100% opposed from t.a.r.p. since day one. he signed the mansion act for the stimulus right now from congress was --

>> no, it just said congress needs to take action. there were other options on the table. he opposed t.a.r.p., 100% and has -- >> there were other opportunities. i want to make it clear he's against t.a.r.p.. from day one. [inaudible] [laughter] >> we will let you guys go. >> how does the proportional nominating system plea in to your strategy? thus that change anything in terms of this year obverses past cycles? >> directly to stimulus? >> sure, for anyone. jesse if you have something to add. >> like i said earlier, this is a race about delegates. who is going to get the necessary delegates to be the nominee, and i think proportional delegate appropriations are very, very good for us.

we plan to continue to win delegates there and primary states where we can win a portion of the delegates we plan to win. we are going to wake up on november 7th. i'm sorry, on march 7th and see if one candidate has consolidated the delegates primary's proportional and non-proportional. estimate it looks like we're out of time. thank you so much for joining and we will send it back to you over there. [applause] >> thank you, everybody. thank you so much for joining us. next time we will have a podium for you all. thank you.

>> now a look at the 2011 open doors report which examines the student exchanges and international student enrollment in american colleges. from this morning's washington journal, this is 45 minutes. >> we are back. ann stock as the education cultural affairs assistant secretary at the state department and allan goodman is the president and ceo of the institute of international education. both of them here to talk about

the headline i showed you before the break. more foreign students studying in the united states and the economic booms top 20 billion. allan goodman, let me begin with you. your group did this report. how did you figure in 20 billion, and give an explanation of what is happening with more foreign students studying in the united states? >> guest: it's a very good for education and the economy like most american students, most foreign students when they come here come the capito mission come up the room and board, go to the local wal-mart, by a computer, buy furnishings and books, and that is an economic development for our communities. so, what we look at is what students would have paid in tuition. we take out any grants they might have gotten, and about two-thirds of the students here pay their own weight and that's how you get to nearly $22 billion. >> host: you found there are 700 plus international students for 2010, 2011, 200,000 new

international students, 3.5% of them are higher education and rolled, and 32% increase over the 2001-2000 level. this is where the students are coming from. 28% from china, 14.4% from india, 10% from south korea, 3.8% from canada and 3.4% from taiwan. why these top -- why these countries? why do they top the list? >> guest: the president is speaking in asia as he's there he is saying it is a pacific century and education has been a pacific century. 60% of the students that come here come from asia and it's the largest two countries in the world, india and china so we expect to see that number and expect to see it grow. >> host: use its good for education. why is it good for education? >> guest: our education depends what students stood for in our laboratories and classrooms.

the future work force, american work force depends on our kids knowing how to work next to an indian and chinese and brazillian to have the diversity of experience prepares them for their future in hours. >> host: ann stock, why is it good that these students are coming from china, india, south korea, canada and taiwan? >> guest: because they globalize on campuses and make the student body more diverse and offer our students a chance to interact with international students that's who they are going to do business with working for the next 40, 50, 60 years. when you are saying is the students coming together their the future global leaders in everything we do. business, education, politics, art, culture. they are going to work side by side with each other. not only do they globalized campuses but they also globalize the community. the campuses to which the students are building coming university of southern california, university of illinois, new york university,

purdue university, columbia -- >> host: mine of all modern. what is this the department role in getting the students to come to the united states for higher education? >> guest: we have something called education usa. we have 400 advising centers all over the world we of students basically navigate the higher education system and give accurate, unbiased, comprehensive immigration about our campuses and colleges and encourage them to come to the united states to answer any questions they have. that's one of the biggest things we do to make it easier for them to get here. >> host: how much does it cost the state department? how much of the budget goes to this? >> guest: it's a very small. i want to say ten or $12 million. i didn't check the number before i came but it's not a large number. >> host: why is it the federal government speefestival to have this happen? why shouldn't this be just universities reaching out to the students? >> guest: we work in partnership with it universities and in partnership with the

states to make sure that we are expending what people are doing to get people here. for a simple, indiana, ohio, michigan all have strategic foreign plans to get students to the united states. we work side-by-side with them to figure out ways to get more students here. it's in our best interest as you can see economically it is $21.3 billion last year in the economy that was not the best. but we actually add to the economy, and so we work side-by-side with states. we worked side by side with schools and side by side with the foreign government through the strategic dialogue and interconnection of all of this coming together. it's very important that our young people work together in this global economy. and we want to make sure that our young people are prepared to compete and it also makes the nation more competitive when we

have foreign students here but also i think one of the opportunities here is for our young people to study abroad. we have 270,000 students that studied abroad this year and the secretary of state this morning when we announced the secretary of state is issuing the call to action for more students to study abroad for them to arrive on campus, get a passport and consider studying abroad. she also asked the had them as traitors to support the study abroad and find ways to get more of our young people to study abroad. actually only one per cent of our student body of the 21 billy in that study in the united states travel abroad to study abroad. so we want to get more young people made globally aware, globally confident and prepared for what is ahead. >> host: is this just higher education, not high school? >> guest: this is just higher education. >> host: is it an immigration program?

>> guest: it is not an immigration program. >> host: some people might think of this as one step towards getting an h-1b weisel or something like that. >> guest: we consider this a higher education program. we want to educate our young people and again, quebec to the united states. we had the best higher education system in the world. the basic gold standard and young people want to come study here and these are the majors that many of these international students are looking at. business and management, engineering, math and computer science of physical and life sciences and social sciences. talk about what the universities say about the programs and how does it benefit them. >> guest: universities in their admission programs are you looking for a diverse group students domestic and foreign. they are looking for a wide range of the fields and they are looking for progress. the colleges and universities of america are the basis of the scientific progress and engineering excellence and it really requires drawing students

from all over the world invested studying with the best americans for their. >> host: you did this report and ann stock with the state department of education affairs assistant secretary why are the two of you to team up or how did you tiemann? >> guest: we started doing this together right after world war ii, and we felt it was a public purpose to track and have a sense of international students and goes back to 1919 when we were first found it and began tracking international students and we've had a great partnership with the status of the persons. >> host: do you get money from the state department? >> guest: we do. the support for a study every year. >> host: how much? >> guest: $300,000. host could you get money from private donations as well? >> guest: we raise money on our own and from our own

resources. >> host: but we give you the number, democrats, 202-737-0001, republicans, 202-737-0002, and independent come independent phone co. first up is mary, an independent in yorktown virginia. go ahead. >> caller: i just want to say it is to assert to hear this nonsense. with all due respect when you sit here and educate foreign people instead of our own which is widely criticized for not having people educated enough to do the jobs in this country and to turn around and bring in 75,000 foreign workers every month to do those jobs and to allow foreign students to take the spot and grants that need to go to legal immigrants and citizens to bring up our

knowledge base for our own citizens so they can compete with the world. >> host: we will take your point on the international students taking the spot for american students. >> guest: america has a huge capacity. >> guest: both you and i have the same point. we have a huge capacity in the united states. we have approximately -- about 4800 colleges in the united states. there is lots of capacity for u.s. students and for international students. we do have, as i said before, the gold standard of colleges and universities and also community colleges. >> host: we also touch on this a little bit. we haven't really gotten the detail. american students were going overseas as well studying. can you talk about how many and where they are going. >> guest: about 270,000 common and we need them to go abroad. we need americans to have a passport. we need the next generation to

be globally prepared as citizens and globally prepared as workers, and you can't get that just staying at home. some international education works both ways coming and we needed to work both ways. >> guest: they have been traveling to -- the numbers are israel, india, brazil, new zealand, malaysia and egypt are some of the higher numbers this year. >> host: what is the impact of these students on the culture and the society that they are going to? >> guest: every time either international students from here or students travel abroad we increase but we call people to people exchange of mutual understanding. they learn about our culture, we learn about their culture, their traditions of other religions, their society, and again, it allows us to think in marble probably in terms of the people we are going to be dealing with. >> host: you mentioned to enter the 70,000 plus u.s. students studying abroad, that is a 3.9 increase for 2008,

2009, and the participation tripled over the past few decades. but if you look at the countries the u.s. students are going to, the united kingdom, italy, spain, france and china are the top five. what about the hot spots and getting students from hot spots around the world to come to another country to try to influence hearts and minds? >> guest: i think what you are seeing are the top five that we know that when you go to the top 25 you see a much more diverse location for students studying. they are studying in latin america, studying in asia and they are also studying in africa in record numbers if you look at the report. we've seen those numbers go up and students or -- they have in mind of their own. they want to go where it is interesting but they also want to go where they learn what and where they are preparing themselves going. this is what they are learning about the top fields of study for u.s. students abroad, social science and business management

communities fine art of the arts, physical and life sciences. let's go to domain, harrisburg pennsylvanian. dwayne, you are on the air. >> caller: my name is swain and i would like to know, we have the brightest and the best students in the world. this is the way that i see it. why do they always say that we don't have enough smarts to deal with the jobs that are out there? the year always saying they have to go somewhere else to get jobs. we are smart. what is the reason behind that? and i will take my question of the air. >> host: do you want to take that one, speed? >> guest: we have a national deficit in terms of americans who are studying math and science. we don't have enough engineers, we don't have enough doctors coming enough nurses come and it begins really in high school with the absence of science and math and people find it difficult, and they move to other fields.

you can do that in america. you can switch from one field to another with the net result is we don't have enough of the people in the sciences, and so i think we are fortunate that for those jobs and those education programs we recruit and attract students from all over the world, some, if you will stay in america and go back, and meek businesses but also friends for america. >> host: what's your from james, republican of north carolina. >> caller: good morning and thank you. i've got a question, will a statement and question. the statement is i don't believe the state department should play one single rule in sending any child overseas. they've proven repeatedly their inability, plan will working against parents of international

the abducted children. i had a group of over 1700, most of which are parents that have had their children of the active overseas. i very adamant and the word needs to get out to not let your children go overseas. >> caller: i would say there are three or four programs that the state department runs and some in conjunction. the fulbright program which sends young people from the underserved areas abroad to study for a short period of time, and we have several critical language programs. again, the programs are designed to prepare our young people to learn languages, learn about culture and come back home and be prepared to take jobs in the 21st century economy. >> host: >> guest: the year usually under programs that are run by

like you run a lot of the fulbright programs and there are huge programs in place and safeguards that take care of young people abroad. we take this also here very seriously. the health, safety and welfare of any student with your coming here or whether we have our students travelling abroad to both of us. >> host: paul and dependent in green bay, wisconsin. >> caller: good morning. >> host: good morning, paul. >> caller: what i'm concerned about is the u.s. taxpayer paying for at least 40% of the cost of their tuition. if their state university, they are in the state system, u.s. tax payers pay for these people. this is a courageous. >> host: allan goodman come to complete. >> guest: most international students pay their wage, the petition to the state universities and they have the

room and board and others. when the u.s. institution gives a a student from another country fellowship, teaching fellowship, it's because we don't have enough people in america who are going to be able to teach the science and math labs and so students from other countries are important to our own state institutions and able to teacher were own students. >> host: how much does the federal government -- >> guest: less than .6% and those are typically fulbright scholars, teachers and researchers. .6%. >> host: can you give a dollar figure on the .6%? less than 100,000? dewey no? >> guest: i wouldn't have that figure right at our fingertips. >> host: shannon, democrat los angeles. go ahead. >> caller: i'm opposite of the other caller.

i think it increases more american students to go to school overseas and would be better if they would go to school mainly in the middle east now. >> guest: 55% of students of this year did a study in the middle east. they were in egypt and in a number of countries that we actually had to evacuate people from and one of the interesting things like when people were evacuated from egypt, they wanted to go back again to learn the language, to learn the culture to continue the relationship that they had started with the young people that they met and continue their schooling so they could bring that knowledge and that competitive knowledge back to the united states to work. >> host: when it comes to evaluating what is the pravachol from the state department?

>> guest: all hands on deck 24/7. just using egypt was a very quick evacuation. it took about four days to get everybody out, but it was all of the partners that we worked with about one the fulbright program in the of the other independent programs on hand to evacuate people immediately. >> host: how much do those types of groups contribute to monetarily students either coming here were going abroad, do they get money to do so? >> guest: well, fulbright in an annual appropriation for the congress. supplemented by the contributions of others. it's the only federal program we have that so many other governments actually contribute to. that's why it's good for public diplomacy and that's why it is tremendously cost-effective. plus our own colleges and universities value having the fulbright students and scholars on campus, so sometimes they provide additional help.

>> host: so it's a scholarship program. >> guest: it has a scholarship attached to it. but what makes fulbright great is these are people that will serve both countries, they will serve the community and they will go back home and build a friendship that we need. >> guest: for simple, chile. the current ambassador from chile and the united states as a fulbright scholar. the head of the country is a fulbright scholar and six or seven of the cabinet officers are fulbright scholars working side-by-side with our government on solving a host of issues important to both of our countries and that is something that we put in place by congress and our government years ago to make sure we had that people to people exchange all the way through. >> host: we have a tweet 42. i agree with the foreign student exchange program. the more they develop relationships hopefully less war. mary is a republican in

louisville kentucky. go ahead. >> caller: good morning. i have two points to make on the issue. i have a son that just completed college and a daughter that will be going in so we are involved in the application process. we personally know many extremely gifted students who have been denied or waitlisted and some of our top universities , and i think that there are two reasons why. one is it is strictly a diversity issue. a number two, it is exactly what you're talking about that for instance, the command pitiful to vision. some of these students may need some aid but i would stack their credentials against these foreign students, and i would love to see a comparison of the credentials of some of the

students admitted before our own students. i would love to see their test scores, gpa, extracurricular, etc.. >> host: speed? >> guest: you can see that in the reports that to the colleges and universities to. and each college and university makes their own determination for the admissions purposes, and i think the goal of all of them is to bring the best students achan to the states and the campus. international students ten years ago were above 3% of the total enrollment. today they are still not 4% so the numbers have increased a lot but so has america's capacity to educate our own citizens. that's why we think there's tremendous capacity in the united states to take care of our own citizens and host more international. >> host: week began with the 700,000 plus, the record high,

we are saying that's still 4%. >> guest: under 4%. and if you look at other countries we may compete with, they are basically out of capacity. the year 18, 20, 25%. the united states is the only place that has so many institutions, so many ways for higher education and so much room. >> host: independent, go ahead. >> guest: i want to thank you for having a forerunner of for this discussion. i wanted to call and think my personal benefit of being able to go to put a high school with large international population students and also a college. i would also like to say that these students are making staying and making money in this economy they are paying taxes on that money. like this gentleman already stated then they are paying taxes on what they buy. so the students are gifted

there's lots of positive things about this program, and i also just wanted to restate they are paying taxes, paying for this program as much as we are. crusco let me read from usa today story on the report. they say that an analysis conducted by jason bohm gertner of indiana university found 28 billion in spending by foreign students was offset by about 7.7 billion from funding from the u.s. government or a private sponsors. can you respond to that? >> guest: sure, colleges and universities particularly the graduate level offered to graduate assistants to scholars and students that they need, international students are among that. so the wrong way to calculate the numbers is to say there are 730 international students. they pay so much to russian and fees and that is the total number.

we have to back out in the fellowship and tuition assistance they get and they do get some. but two-thirds of international students pay their entire way in the united states and that is how we get to nearly 22 billion they contribute to the economy >> host: ann stock this is an e-mail from someone who wants to go back to with this is an immigration issue saying students need a visa to enter therefore it is an immigration issue. >> guest: if they're coming on an education program. >> host: do they have to have a student visa? can you explain the process? >> guest: go ahead. >> guest: it is in on immigrant student visa. america is known for issuing on immigrant student visas. we pioneered doing that and the whole intent is that the student returns home, and most of them do. >> host: kansas city, democratic line. patrick, go ahead. >> caller: i'm starting not to believe a single word emulating

from that gentleman's mouse because what he's doing is actually when they come to the united states of america the disincentive pfizer were children that we have here in the united states and learning. he just mentioned that a lot of these index coming from overseas are teaching our children here in the classrooms or colleges. how our children supposed to aspire to those positions when those three positions are given away from foreign students that are not even american? >> host: let's take that point. decentralizing students. >> guest: tremendous incentives to study in all fields and i have to doctors and a nurse. they were incentivized by their schools and their family to take up the hard course to do the science so we can do with it and i think the gift of america is we do it for the world. we are a world power, we should be doing it for the world and if it is our country and it will

benefit our kids -- >> host: international of education? >> guest: we started right after world war i. as part of an effort to help americans engage with the world come and ever since we have been promoting international the education for americans and people all over the world because we think it promotes a mutual understanding and ultimately peace. >> host: iee.org is the website. i know it was released early this morning. can be found on a website? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: nancy, a republican. go ahead. >> caller: thank you for taking my question to read what percentage of the students that come to the united states return here to live? the best benefit from the education they received here. >> host: okay. allan goodman come can you speak to that? >> guest: it's a great

question. ten years ago we were concerned about brain drain with students coming and staying here. thanks to the globalization so many students and scholars that come from their studies to return and they've returned to india and china and asia. no one has the comprehensive data on that, but what we are seeing is more for the other countries after the students have been here. >> host: here is a story but on the website and the headline coming out of the report is the number of indian students enrolled in the u.s. colleges fall in five years. can you speak to that? >> guest: the was a small decrease coming here and certainly compared to the increase in china the indians would note that. what has increased as the number of indians who are getting optional and practical training which a worker from it also allows them to do for a year after another studies here.

those students i expect will return and i also think the numbers next year will increase. >> host: tune of the decline has contributed to? >> guest: it could be an impact of recession. every country has felt that. it could be the sense in india so that i can make sure i have a job next year. >> host: a lot of students are choosing to study their and then get a job immediately. so a lot of students may not be coming here in the numbers they were so we are also working with india and a number of ways several weeks ago secretary clinton hosted with the minister of human-resources ayaan education summit at georgetown university and 300 business higher education government leaders working at innovative ways for the united states and

people to work with india and their people on new innovation we might do. one of those is to look at the american community college model as a model for vocational training and in the which is another way of just, you know, trying to partner innovative ways we haven't done before, but our community college model is modeled for the world, and one that is typically unique to the united states but we know a lot about the colleges and what they do and what they do for students comes about was one idea that came out of that community college among a number of other ways. >> host: assistant secretary of state for the cultural affairs. what are your responsibilities? >> guest: my responsibilities are large and all over the place. all of these things we do and all of these changes that come here the cultural programs are in academic programs,

professional programs, the youth and sports programs with about 60% of the world youth under age 30. we'll looking at more ways to looking at people including using all types of media. it's a wide variety of things but they're basically running all of the exchanges worldwide. vice president of institutional affairs of the center of the performing arts to 2010. manager of the center's international arts management program. deputy assistant to president clinton and secretary of the white house from 1993 to 1997. kansas city missouri, independent flight go ahead, claudia. hold on one second. i think i messed up the phone line. if we can get those straighten out. my fault we are pushing the wrong button then we will come back and hang on the line.

allan goodman, you've done these reports for many years. what do you do for them? what is the goal of the report? >> guest: i think it's important for the hundred education of america to know how international it is or isn't and it's important to know how globally and more citizens are engaged or are not and this gives a benchmark and what is impressive to me as it is a national phenomenon. international litigation is taking place in all states and public as well as private institutions and community colleges and research universities and understanding that is important to the future because it is about producing a knowledge economy. >> host: let me call claudia one more time independent in kansas city missouri. are you there? >> caller: can you hear me now? >> host: we can. >> caller: first let me say that life of the generation american and i am also a mural by now but just and i have yale

on my resume. i can't get a job and i am not the only one. we have hundreds if not thousands of u.s. native born scientists who can't find jobs, and as long as the rest have low wages, the last job i had in the sciences or $15 an hour. as long as that goes on we aren't incentivizing the u.s. citizens. we don't have to tell them don't go into the science and math because they see what our lives are like and they are not going to go into it. we are does incentivizing as patrick said and please meet me at the coffeehouse today at 4:00 >> host: michael, democratic colin philadelphia. go ahead. you won on the air in

philadelphia. >> caller: are you there? >> host: we are listening. >> caller: i'm not exactly firm on the issue on your side but i do believe to have money coming into the country for the education the other side of this is the previous caller just mentioned ayman engineer with a masters. i haven't been able to find work for years. the reality is it is a rich and poor issue to read a lot of these children are wealthy children from other countries being sent here to find work. i don't know what their standards of living are to the american standard of living and expectations for in come but i believe the truth is they are driving down buck off pay curve for the individuals in this country.

>> host: let's. the impact on that? >> guest: i think all of us want more americans to have jobs. people are looking for work to be able to find that so we have to find a way in the economy to make the position and our focus in high gear education is how to refocus on our kids and employees of the future or are they going to need to get jobs whether it is an engineering or any other field and they are going to need to know something other than the world and people from other countries and some international education is aimed at providing that. >> host: when you look at funding for international students in the united states and similar for the u.s. students coming about as well that picks up about 63.4%. the caller said it is mostly. >> guest: most students come

from india and china. their families value education, the cultures that value education and short interest but is a tremendous amounts of money just to educate one or two children and that is the phenomena the year seeing a the dalia based on education, the savings as opposed to a car or house or any other things of the pattern of education is right up there. >> guest: education seems to be at the top of the list for people coming here they do save and they do send their children here to rehearsed socially independent atlanta. >> caller: i want to say thanks for the program today. my question is my son is 4-years-old and is in a total immersion school because i realize the importance of the global and international the education but what is being done

in our public schools? i can't send my son to a public school in our area and expect him to be able to compete with other students globally, so i would like to know what types of programs are the programs you are coming up with so that our younger kids are prepared in both the sciences and the arts and the languages to be able to make certain that our kids here are able to be able to compete globally. >> host: what is your son studying? >> caller: spanish and mandarin is coming to their school and school here is called [inaudible] in the of the matter in atlanta, the atlanta international school which has several different language courses as well. >> host: we will get a response. >> guest: i think you are

seeing a number of leaders both mayors and governors realizing the importance of training our kids in education and languages especially so that they are ready to compete. richard daley just put in place a man driven program and number of years ago and to the public schools that are training young people to learn and speak mandarin and also i think they worked on russian and several other languages by and you are seeing a number of our leaders especially locally realizing what they need to have, with the global competencies are going to be in the coming years, and looking at how they are training people and going back and reevaluate and reassessing what we are doing. there are a number of spanish and chinese courses you are seeing all over the united states. my guess is those are only going

to grow as we continue to work in an interconnected world and global society. to a whitfield >> guest: i'm proud of this month that put her child and a school that is going to get one or two languages. americans aren't studying language anymore and language learning in our colleges and universities in the lowest level of history that isn't going to change in the next year or two. it's going to change like the caller saying this is important for my son or daughter and school systems will change when they realize parents think this is important for the next generation. >> host: democratic color index fell minnesota. >> caller: good morning. >> host: good morning. >> caller: i'm glad to reach you all this morning. my question is, you know, everything is fine and dandy with bringing a friday to the country and having new breaches

of education brought in and new ways of how the world is doing things that my concern is that what happens to us that live here in this country? we have not enough students able to get quite the education and our own institutions. we can't have people coming into the country when the previous caller had said she has got degrees from various universities and she can't find jobs. >> host: we talked about that a number of times. what do you make of that nature of the phone call when it comes to taking spots for american goods and colleges? >> guest: i would go back to the capacity is there. there are 4,800 colleges and there is plenty of capacity.

the possibility may be the cost and how we make sure that our kids get educated because the united states has the capacity to educate the international students and our own citizens. we have numerous colleges but i think that they are a number of other issues that need to be addressed. >> host: republican in iowa. good morning, kenneth, you are on the air. >> caller: good morning. i have a different comment from the situation for education in the u.s.. the question that occurs is this. throughout the years, the best of the students in the world have always come here for education, and planned on staying in the u.s. and getting positions here and universities and research labs recruited these students and after being

on the committee's typically these people are not the top of the last for hiring and then something happened. they couldn't get them to come to the u.s. when particularly [inaudible] that everything would close down for awhile suddenly our students have been coming here with applications to about immensely from the foreign countries. >> host: allan goodman, you are shaking your head. >> guest: after 9/11, our country and many others began to reassess the policies and change regulations and change the policies and procedures and there was a small decrease for a couple of years of international students coming here. now america leads the way in a number of students coming here with openness and transparency of the process issuance.

colleges and universities will be able to take the best students they are seeing and making this the department in homeland security have worked together to make the process much more open and transparent. >> host: the web sites are much easier to navigate and looking in a variety of ways to speed up the process to make sure that it is open and transparent. >> host: one last phone call here. newmarket virginia. go ahead, caller. >> caller: i just have one comment. right now particularly with the unemployment rate being what it is, you have a lot of industry particularly nursing you have a lot of visas that have been for nurses to come from universities with unemployment being what it is, you have a lot of people being out of work have gone to school. the spots for nursing careers in the community colleges and the

universities are very limited, so what you are saying about capacity is at odds with what i am seeing. i don't really see that there are that many spots for american students and basically the allowing of students to come seems to put u.s. students at odds with how many can get and triet >> host: we are running out of time. you showed earlier would international students are majoring in. what are their top fields and vice versa? can you speak to -- do they already have to have declared their major before they get to come to the united states and vice versa? does that play a role in whether or not they get to be an international student? >> guest: the great thing about american higher education and what distinguishes from any other country is you are not linked to the day that you're born to enter the community college in one field decide you are better in another and major

in a third so what appears to the international students has appeals to americans is the flexibility and your flexibility to reinvent yourself. if we also have to take the job calls really seriously haulier education has to be connected to the job market. we have to make sure that we have career planning services for our students public and private institutions that give the best job possible getting the jobs in the future. >> host: allan goodman, ann stock got into for being here to talk about the viewers. appreciate. you can see the yvette to light on c-span following the u.s. health coverage. here is a look at the testimony on the tennessee vote. >> it is a pleasure to be this

is my husband and our youngest daughter becky. with a new voting law in tennessee i need to get a photo ied since i'm over 60 and tennessee doesn't require a photograph on the driver's license after one reaches the age of 60. we went to the driver's testing station to get the free photograph. upon entering the building people were lined up to the door. they thought maybe they had a special line of those on the photographs of the said week here and i will see what the procedure is. now i will let him tell you the rest of the story good afternoon. chairman conyers, members of the committee, fellow resident of tennessee, representative cohen, before i continue their edify would like to introduce myself. my name is lee campbell and i am a native of lake city iowa.

i had a 42 year career in public education as a teacher and as a guidance counselor both in on u.n. and in tennessee. i retired in 2006. i of never failed to vote in any election i was able to cast a ballot beginning with my first presidential vote on november 3rd, 1964 in summer's iowa. back to where they left off, i approach the worker the information desk at the driver's testing station and stated that my wife was here and wanted to

obtain the free voter i.d.. the person responded with a nonverbal side. a sigh indicating no, not that. the worker then suggested why not just get a duplicate license for a fee of the dollar's? caught the scent of the fact that a senior citizen friend of ours, mr. steve bling genscher would force these borough in the previous month had paid the $8 fee i replied no we want the freedom of voter photograph. at that point the worker held up one finger to indicate just a

moment. i watched the worker go to the three different employees, and upon return told me that there would be no charge and to return to the line which consisted at that point of approximately 30 people. keep in mind, these 30 people are waiting in mind just to get the information desk. i want to say right now that paying the 8-dollar fee was not the question as we could easily afford that. the point was the tennessee legislature in passing the ball had emphasized the photograph was to be free. otherwise in my opinion the fee it charged could be considered a poll tax. when we reach the information desk again, the worker again reiterated that the wisest choice was to get the photograph on the driver's license as

opposed to getting a separate photographs as that entailed as she set too much paperwork. that means for the 47,000 registered voters in tennessee who do not have a driver's license, 47,000 registered voters to not have a driver's license there is time-consuming paperwork involved. we then took our seats so phyllis could wait for her photograph. the whole procedure took 58 minutes. i want to say at this point that the 58 minute wait didn't bother us but we could readily understand that an elderly or handicapped person the long wait in line could be daunting. for information published in our daily paper, the daily newspaper of at murfreesboro, the local

drivers testing center during the last week of october, not even a month ago, charged a world war ii veteran the 8-dollar fee for his duplicate license with a photograph. this tells me that unless a person stands their ground such as i did, the drivers testing center is going to charge a fee for the photograph. in fact, an official with the department of public safety stated to the press that the fee would be charged unless the applicant stated he or she wanted the free photo id. my question is why else would a person be trying to get a photograph on their license if it wasn't to get the free photo id? they should ask in my opinion

the worker should automatically ask are you here for the free fogle i.t.? then a week ago today. i could counter another ramification of this in my opinion voter suppression legislation to reply went to a business in tennessee and was greeted by a former teaching colleague. this person is approximately 80 years of age and uses a cane to aid and mobility. this person inquired if i were still politicking. this quickly lead to a discussion of the new photograph law. this person stated that the voting for her was now out of the question in the future. the principal reason is as she stated waiting in longline in order to get a photograph