and so you see the academy began to be involved. at this time this is a very american kind of phenomenon although i want to mention the international dimension of the internship explosion in a little bit. schools are saying they're responding to student needs. this is a generation of baby boomers and universities saying we want to apply our learning and that academic credit. we want to go beyond the classroom and be in a sense active in the community and is seen as a kind of interest in the broader society going beyond the ivory tower. that is another theme that injures the internships discourse. but particularly interesting and what i particularly cover in the book is the internship explosion. >> you can watch this and other

programs online at booktv.org. >> next, "jeopardy!" champion ken jennings visits the history of cartography and examine the ways that maps are used today. this is about 40 minutes. [applause] >> thank you. that is very kind. thanks for coming out. a lot of people. i have been here many times but never seen the secret parts of it. very excited. i got to go to the bathroom and with like through a garage and some offices. we are in the middle of capitol hill. anyway, nice to see you guys. i am ken jennings. i think what we will do is i will talk a little bit about the book and i don't know how this will go but i want an impromptu geography quiz. i have -- we turn a signing into

a game show. i am not sure if c-span will be happy with that but we will digital -- little geography quiz show. then i will sign some books. hopefully it will not be as long as it sounds because when i go to book signings i like it when the authors for the verrazzano side of getting the home in time. [laughter] >> any jokes i can't finish? just yell it out. i will send them up and you can knock them down. my name is ken jennings and the book is called "maphead". i am a maphead. sounds like a 12 step thing. ira fan of maps in all their forms. anybody here a maphead? you want to share my creed? my name is, your name is with initials. the book was born out of an experience i had a couple years ago going through my parents's

barack which is the huge pile of books. i know everyone's parents's garages a huge pile of boxes. my first garage looks like a shot from raiders of the lost ark. they found one more box of mine. i go through the pile trying to find it and opened it up and pulling stuff out and was a time capsule of high school and my childhood. , xbox and tapes. some don't know what that is. at the bottom was a big old green hammond world that was 1978. it was this weird moment for me. oh my gosh! it was like finding your beloved stuffed animal at the bottom of a box. this thing is in a meaningful -- i save to buy this. i was already a total map nerd. i could look at maps for hours.

read at lesses for pleasure the way more normal kid would be reading clifford the big red dog. i would be paging through the atlas. it was an amazing moment of connection to see this again after so much time and i realized i spent many years since then in the clause that as it were as a maphead. you realize as you get older than your liking geography a lot is not a hit with girls. you realize socially it is often a liability and not an asset. people don't talk a lot about how they love maps. as i started writing the book people would ask what i was working on and i would apologetically say to friends, about maps. like that would not justify any

advance. and was amazing how many people were like a love maps! are you kidding? many people would be like i love maps. [laughter] like they were aware there were social outcasts. i remember having a roommate coming in to our apartment at the beginning of the semester having a new roommate named sheldon. actually named sheldon. and on the walls papered with national geographic maps. i had spent my childhood looking at national geographic mass. i should have been over the moon but instead we are never going to see a single girl in here. on the plus side i became the second least desirable or attractive person in the department which was very exciting for me. i was not really true to my maphead routes.

this was a pleasure because i did get to meet with a lot of people who had these geographically hobbies. map libraries. got to hang out in the map division and the balls of the library of congress which was very cool. three football fields of 9,000 cabinets of maps. i remember opening -- it would be like here's a map of a plantation in virginia. george washington through it. like you could do this -- amazing treasure trove. hung out with people using the d t s revolution -- multibillion-dollar military satellites to find tupperware hidden in the woods. is that clear? it is in portland and the company that maintained the west side in fremont. who else did i get to hang out with? national geographic, washington

is one more night national geographic and any other state. washington. kids are amazing. middle school and when i did a geography quiz, yeoman in redmond and just for fun gave her geography question for which i had gone right and not gone right and she smoked me. she got one wrong. i got half of them wrong. kids are amazing. hy started to see as i hung out with people like this people who were in to maps of fantasy worlds, road in sunni interstate system. systematic travelers like people who go to every something on earth. every starbucks every high point. people with lifelong places they must step one to 0 in and head back to the airport. the thing they all had in common that occurred to me is modern-day explores. they were born too late. in a world that for better or for worse is already explored.

maps are not quite as fun as they used to be when there were big white spaces with sea serpents and cannibals and stuff. we have been everywhere. the only places left replaces that suck. there's a reason they're blank on the map. these are people, things we map now we are mapping stars and the human genome but these are people who miss the time when you could map something that would surround you. territorial location or place you could explore. they reinvent exploration by making old places new. they hide tupperware in city parks endlessly and they draw maps of new fantastic places and lose themselves in antique maps. these are sort of the equivalence of modern-day explores and fascinated to spend time with them. i am going to read a short

segment. this is a part of the reading what i am in your chair, i am not going to speed read or anything but this is a brief section from chapter 4 where i am hanging out at the library of congress with the map librarian about placement on maps which always held a special appeal for me. as long as i love maps are have been an enthusiastic -- a student of place names. maps that are not dotted with text books. what could be more than one of those outline maps of the region with a few extra years of war and drawn on it to the big industry or agriculture? these are the abominations that made kids hate geography. names that bring back to life. there maybe poetry and a curl of the coastline but personality in australia or mexico or zambia. the cartographer abraham agreed in studying the atlas where he labeled is imaginary southern

continent with tantalizing place names like cape of the good signal and sweetest river. no one could enter these nonexistent places but it was either that or leave entire land mass suspiciously naked. i feel warmth when i see obsolete map labels like sale on and british honduras. i have never been to these countries there conduits to my childhood like the smell of the school cafeteria or the piano line. i plan my vacations around places like land fair pull, quinn, drove, whales and so on, new to the rapid whirlpool of the red tape. and made sure to get my picture taken during a trip to thailand in bangkok city hall. is full of 163 letter names. name don't have to belong to be memorable. you could physically and not the lanes and villages named by

benny hill. tragic bottom, wet lane, and american road atlas, folksy roads life history, cheese quake, new jersey, ding dong the, texas. most came by their names honestly. the noisiest -- makes your skin crawl. keep quake is a corruption of an indian word meaning up in the village. texas for local signing up located in bell county. sometimes it is too good to be true because they are. take the welsh allege which i'm not going to say again. was plain old land fur pools until the 1860'ss local taylor concocted the longer name hoping to bring in tourists. the town needed to buy a vowel. so a spiritual ancestor of all those desperate american countries who renamed themselves for dot.coms and celebrities. some like new mexico still

called for the consequences 30 years after the game show for which was named went off the air. in pennsylvania it will -- more often than not the new name stays as long as the headlines do. halfway oregon natural year. joe/montana is just montana again. maps are sacred on the side of mount rushmore. in 2005 a timely hamlet in kentucky turned down a chance to were $100,000 by changing its name to brokershare.com. bible belt residents with internet gambling. name notoriety can be at two edge for. a new high school computer and it led from moneymatt.com, there is a but whole road in new jersey. someone who lives on the road said the road's cheeky name was the draw when he first moved. couldn't believe the previous owners moving out because they didn't like the name but the

novelty wore off thanks to the endless sprinkles and skeptical delivery drivers and busloads of tourists taking pictures while moving the street sign. the street was named for a communal water but but history didn't matter. in 2009 the neighbors with the 300 lb tree and a >> the name to the less distinctive archer's way. it is hard for americans to understand patriotism that confound up in place names like young countries. we are accustomed to our cowboy fashion to everything revolving around us so we afford to let slide the fact that the gulf of mexico is called the gulf of america. the library of congress map librarian johnny bear said was an issue on geographic names. if america announced we would change its name to canada. we did get on with our allies and elsewhere that is national identity. in korea, always had the words sea of japan blacked out on the

asian map and traditional korean name ec had lettered. greece got so angry about the republic of macedonia that it blackballed macedonia's interests in nato in 2008. the hottest rhetoric is out of iran after the 2004 edition of the geographic out lists and is the world a persian gulf label reading arabian gulf. iranians went bonkers. under the influence of the u.s. zionist lobby of dollars of the oil government a society distorted and undeniable historical reality of our time. all national geographic publications and journalists were banned from iran. resourceful internet users send thousands of e-mails. hundreds of angry amazon reviews for the atlas that included arabian gulf. the top result of the phrase is now a mock arab page reading the golf you're looking for this not exist. try persian gulf.

national geographic finally issued a correction but tensions were running high over the issue. airtran created a persian gulf they ever able to celebrate the 1 college and cancel the 2000 and solidarity and objected to the phrase persian gulf on the metals and threatened to ban any airline that doesn't use the right name on its display. it is the equivalent to this pride. the way we play at converting inside or outside a status in communities. woes to the manhattan tourists who asked for avenue of the americas is. officially such a mouthful that new yorkers pronounces like a city in texas. in the neck of the with the magic names are puyallup, largest state fair and a retirement mecca on the olympic peninsula. to pronounce the names for gallup or soup when brand themselves a tourist or worse, california transplant. i could tell you the real pronunciation but under washington state law i would

have to kill you. the pronunciation i gave way by doing it out loud. you have to imagine that being read. one thing that struck me writing the book is the headline you always hear about geography are scary ones about how 10% of american college students can't find canada on a map for the pacific ocean weather but with both hands. defect those headlines exist is a sign that deep down part of our culture believes geographic knowledge is important. is an important part of cultural literacy. the untapped amount of goodwill towards geography. i would like to think there are signs we're living in a new golden age for maps. may be in the age of google earth and real-time mapping of traffic and weather and smart phones that show you where your friends are in real time and all the amazing mapping innovations, frankly maps of that around

centuries. to create new golden age where maps miraculously appear to be as exciting and sexy to the average person as for whatever reason always appeared to me. that is my hope and the hope of "maphead". shall we do a geography quiz? here's my plan. we will see how this works. i have here in my magic bag a copy of "maphead" i can give away and ken jennings bobblehead. [applause] the utter lack of demand for them. people say their nonexistent girlfriend is from canada? this was made in canada as a promotional item for a tv trivia game and no one wanted it but me but i have a garage full. for anyone who answers the question right, what kind of

candy should we have? for geography quiz? nehr day. that is very sweet. i think my plan so far as i have one. i have done this in trivia books before. i will shout out some questions. if you know the answer shouted out. if you are quick i hope your quick end there will be some nerds heading and your head. this is not part of the event this week. i was talking about name derogations from kentucky. this is the time you have to be alert. after we do a short number of these, we will meet together and tends to the most gifted geographically that people have been in the preliminaries and a few finalists to do a final round. how about that? for example i would read a question like this that you would yell out the answer. might be something like and what state is lake okechobee? over here first in the front

row. don't try out my arms. you don't have to answer in the form of a question. i am not -- you are already skipping "jeopardy!" by being here tonight. nobody is really missing. the "jeopardy!" folks have the story about alex showing up at a signing somewhere in manhattan around this time and maybe out rage like why are you here? who is hosting "jeopardy!"? everything is under control. what country's longest river is the longer? i heard over here first. right here? your neighbors read it you out. which canadian province is wild road country? over here somewhere, wasn't it? here? oh. thanks for the cooperation. until 1995 what was the english name of the indian's most

populous city? i heard bombay and calcutta. it is actually bombay. the current mumbai -- anyone home to -- by here somewhere. thank you for not getting hit in the head. i don't know liability here. in what country -- as soon as you know it yeller out. bali? right here. front row. very nice. if you scale of a free house and foot i what national park--somewhere. british airways. travel do north from anywhere in texas what state do you enter first? somewhere -- in the red shirt.

no one is lost and i am but this is going very well, i think. what is the tallest volcano? where was it? over here? right here. but i didn't miss that. that is impressive. just so you know that judges are keeping an eye. what country's most important is bought iraq? over here somewhere first. here you go. nice to see you. thanks for coming out. that was sort of tough. are there mapheads -- which nation the former yugoslavia now remember of the e you? right here. very nice. where are ellsworth land, homer land? somewhere -- way in the back.

here we go. one row. what city is sugarloaf? right here. very nice. that was a terrible for 0. that is not an error on the play. cleveland, ohio on which of the great lakes? somebody here was quick. you again, sir. you don't want to be sitting in front of him. i feel your pain. what canadian territory has a name meaning our land? over here somewhere first. you again, sir. rebellion over here with somebody here first. two for none of us. god knows connect to the mediterranean and what other -- somewhere over here.

people in front of your getting too many. is it like the speed of sound or something? the four large islands of japan which is farthest north? i heard it over here somewhere. we are "maphead" -- "jeopardy!" co-conspirators. seattle is the best jeopardy -- on city limits. the best contestants in the house tonight. how are you doing? thanks for coming. [applause] and jeopardy when you're playing for money would be doing very well. the fix might be in. name anyone of the lesser antilles or abc islands. somebody said aruba. the last one? a better throw than last time

and kill the person behind you. what island did the romans called hibernia? i heard it here first. the guy next to him. you fight over it. the world's largest desert is not the sahara. and arctic and somebody said. technically speaking -- that i will be eating nerds all night. the definition of the desert scientifically, nothing but the amount of precipitation and it is too cold there. not a lot of precipitation. what densely populated island south of the calhoun peninsula? somewhere back there. here's a rafter. will you count that back to hong kong? i am getting a sense to our finalists are. what country's most visited tourist attraction is the city

of petra? i heard jordan. aaron brown. he is one of my friends who live about after writing the book was a bit of a map nerd. what was the largest area in africa? sudan. last question. pretty tough. what is a country's largest island is et leave to -- somebody said fiji. it is cd. here you go. go deep. all right. okay. i think our finalists have probably got to be right here, probably right there. may be right here. they got multiple ones. a few people -- obviously very good. there were many -- come on up. you're finalists here.

[applause] i guess this mike doesn't move. tell me your name starting on the end. now living in -- you didn't come all the way just for this? you are originally from spokane? thanks for coming. and you are -- for of all the way up for this. i am sure the google guys are excited about the book coming out. i thought you might. a guy from mount undue answering questions like he has seen the answers and may have on his smart phone right now. here's what we will do. i will read the questions slowly and when you know the answer say your name sort of like establish who is first and give the answer. we will do ten questions.

your first question. early explorers also called the platte river -- yes? >> nebraska. >> the answer is nebraska by the name of what u.s. state, nebraska river. you lucked out. one point in the middle for frank. what country's largest cities are conception -- that is right. i don't think -- i am very impressed. say your name before you say the answer. question 3. what u.s. state has a capital city with a three word name? what u.s. state? there we go. a right answer. you still in this? frank? you don't look for microsoft.

you thought i was trying to do that. did didn't work. what name is shared by the tallest mountain in cyprus and greece? correct. chris on the board. may be over. which was the only one of the 13 original u.s. states not to touch the atlantic? pennsylvania. very good. you are on the board. 1-3-1. anybody's game as it happens. which african country officially administered the enclave of combat not? >> oh. >> you want to take it? no penalty for wrong answer. >> algeria. >> just north of angola.

the island of know by as zambia is the northernmost extent of what mountain? chris first. what mountain range? thank you, ladies and gentlemen. keep your answers to yourself. 1-4-1. am i thinking about this right? question 7? you two are tied. no correct answer -- sorry. i don't want to question them out there. you two can tie at this point. answer every remaining question correct. i cannot have entered this. which of the seven countries of central asia is considered surrounded by the ocean? i think one was first. you were next, i think.

that is correct. you are still in it. keep your answer to yourself. what golf is known as the sea of cortez? >> gulf of california. >> 3-4-1. it comes down to this. how many world nations have the word guinea in their name? the question is not correct. three is not correct. it is four. [applause] very impressive. i will give you the rest of the nerds. one more question. what u.s. state is the yeah the river? ..

luke could not be here with us tonight but is actually getting more stable with age. the same thing that is happening in your grandpa is pretty also with our dog. [laughter] another person here. about my education. i sort of skirt all of lot in

school. [laughter] that's not what you want to hear, am i right? i was originally from seattle but moved overseas my was seven or eight by data got a job in a law firms went to an international school in seoul korea and attended university of washington in bergen university and five a degree in english and computer science. i was a very happy english major who decided it would be nice to pay the bills from time to time. [laughter] what's the difference between a large pizza and the english major the large pizza can feed a family of four. [laughter] working at the program when i got and they say there's no second act in life but actually thinks to griffin i do have a second act and i have an english degree and i'm doing great.

>> do you know though answer to the last question? >> i get asked that all the time. it's like the worst conspiracy theory ever. did you ever quit a job where you are getting like 60,000 an hour. [laughter] a lot of people have told me that was an easy question. if you are going to tell me that after you can save some time. i've heard it. [laughter] they are easy if you know them and never easy if you don't i guess. >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> no matter what i say. you knew that. i promise i didn't. [laughter] i did not throw jeopardy. i promise. too much respect for alex track to ever do that. [laughter] another question? [inaudible] >> in the area actually. on p.m. local.

>> [inaudible] >> am i allowed to go back to jeopardy? it's sort of one to a customer. that's what i got and i'm fairly nice chance anyway. i got to back last year when ibm had a super computer. so i guess it's possible that google will teach how to play jeopardy and then i will be back. [laughter] there was a hand up over here. >> do you have any recommendations -- >> i've actually been working on something. there was going to be the second reading. no but you may be the first person to ever mengin flash fiction on c-span. [laughter] >> do you use map quest, google maps? >> are you asking if i bing?

i always see bumper stickers if i bing. who will be offended if i do not use bing as a verb? of too technologies are great. [laughter] yes? >> what do you have for retaining the most knowledge possible? >> from a knowledgeable team member. when people ask me all that stuff i feel like i don't have a good answer, like i don't have a system or a tie and but i can reference them to. most jeopardy people would say they got on the show without any kind of system for weekend or cramming but just a lifetime of being a curious person. being aware of the world around them. i'm interested in everything. quote like most people where we can easily live with the stuff we are into the the other stuff just goes in one year and the other. literally whatever the secret is

makes me interested in everything. i don't know how to cultivate that but if you can become one of those people interested in everything you will always have something connected to what ever you hear you will want to know it can't have things in your head somewhere to tie it on to it won't go through the cracks. we have time for a couple more questions. yes, sir right here. >> i understand in the nationals it is predominantly boy is as opposed to girls. any observation on that? >> the possibility of the gender gap in the geology and map reading. if you've ever heard any community you know this is an the sexist monologues for decades, the idea that women can't read maps and men can't ask for directions. it's a little more concern than say some crappy stand up. they've actually commissioned

research as to why this is because there's a big gap in the finals. the year i went there and there were two girls and 50 blease. this wasn't the idea. they like to think geography can appeal to anyone and the year i went the to least popular states wyoming. they commissioned research and with the countess they were hoping to find some sort of explanation like the questions are biased, the girls get nervous. they found there is a small gap for a reason geography between the boys and the girls and they are not sure why that is. it doesn't necessarily mean the brains are wired differently although i guess that is a possibility. the brain chemistry might be different. there is research to show we treat our boys and girls very differently even as little babies we toss the boys around more. the experience locations for a very young age. we let them explore more. it's possible in those age groups the boys will be

interested in exploring places and looking at maps and maybe the girls will not. so national geographic has been working on outreach to get more girls interested and in geography and general. in the back. >> [inaudible] just doesn't have the same emphasis that it used to years ago when i was in school. what can be done? i think you said 40% of college students [inaudible] [laughter] >> films like that happen all the time i'm sure. he's asking about geography education and if that's taken a hit in recent years. the answer is yes for a couple

of reasons. the main reason especially as the primary level of primary secondary education is in the 70's the social studies map and lots of social science spots could give some of our stuff, too much. they could defend the policy and economics, you know, civics and political -- whatever social sciences there are. and so the final tradition of teaching geography from the map in the front of the classroom we now associate with all old-time 50's because it got replaced by social studies. the u.s. is now from my friend the only country in the gulf war a kid can go from preschool to graduating with a master's and never cracked a geography textbook. obviously there's been good things to come from the social studies revolution and also some costs. when we stack up against other countries in terms of geographical illiteracy we are when next to last on the geographic test. thank you. [laughter]

no developed nations to agree. they are all surprisingly bad when you look at how many people even some place often i did one in the pacific ocean on the map its higher than you like with the u.s. is much worse off than most say japan or european countries in the developed world. so, it's a problem and i think gps, things like gps might make it worse. we don't open nay anymore. we have a talking clock that tells us where to turn and you see people turning into rivers or railroad tracks we just always believed the box. we have time for just a couple more questions. we will take one more question. make this better than all the questions put together. no pressure. >> other than going through the library of congress, are you able to go through any of the other ancient maps and other countries?

>> did i go through ancient maps? i did. i went to the london map fair which is cool. it's a leading place to buy and sell antique maps and they hold the national geographic society but it's where all the greek explorers of the age came back to show their stuff. the expedition and robert scott's expedition of the poll and livingston. all this stuff happened and there was very cool and very good maps obviously and another place is the map gallery in the vatican policy in rome. i don't know if you've been there. it's a beautiful july enormous map of italy lining to wall and the pope would wait to see him and the idea is they would be intimidated by the extent of his earthly realm.

so yes i am a sucker for old maps. it's something the maps are beautiful but just to look at some from not the 1600's and be reminded how many people sacrifice or lost their lives could be done more accurately so it is a very powerful thing. i'm going to find books as long as there are books to be signed. dalia appreciate you coming. [applause] thank you so much. >> for more information, visit the author's website, ken-jennings.com.

would it be fair to say that there has been some level of more acceptance when you look at recent scandals, and correct me if my thesis is wrong but it's the ones that are attached not just with social lives or scandals but then there is other wrongdoing and that eventually takes people out of office? hawken politicians survived sex scandals? >> they can survive sex scandals. david of utter from louisiana won his last election in a landslide victory. so it is possible right now because americans have gotten more and more use to sex scandals involving their politicians. ultimately we are doing if that is a good thing because it will enable us to stop eventually talking and of obsessing and start focusing on what matters. >> what makes it so that is not just the positives and new

washington, d.c. but you have somebody that hypocritical getting caught up in a sexual buscapade it just makes it even worse. >> instead of talking about this we go to phone calls and the lines are already busy for you let's just give your favorite story in the book. >> well my favorite chapter turned out to be the eleanor roosevelt and franklin roosevelt it was complicated. he had missed the living next to him and she had her girlfriend lorena hancock next to her in the white house. the public obviously didn't know any of this, but the story missy, franklin's, turned out to be essential to helping these figures become the great heroes

of the american history who led us to the great depression and second world war. it's in the central piece of their story, these extramarital relationships, and it's an important piece which has been ignored by historians. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. up next from the recent 2011 national book festival on the national mall in washington historian david mccullough presents his book the great her journey americans in paris. >> good afternoon.ll re on this first national bookfetiv festival continued for a secondr day. thank you for [cheers and applause]

unri coming overcome the most inaccurate of weather predictions. a special thanks to one of our new sponsors, wells fargo has specifically been sponsoring the history and biography provision. we are coming to the close of this 11th annual national book festival and all of us at the library of congress hope you enjoyed as much as we've enjoyed planning and bringing it to you with so many great sponsors and partners. it's a joyous event, but it's also an important one because the ability to read is the key to a good life in every sense of the word. retain essential, not just to enriching our own minds, extending our horizons of our society and building and sustaining a dynamic democracy. and we are grateful to the 115 writers who have brought us the

ongoing american creative spirit and mccullough of in public and national way here at the height of her account. in the 11th national book festival could nonfirst have been the success it has been. they impress attended number of people have participated without a work of over 100 volunteers and have given generously of their time and this is actually more than a thousand. it's a record in that respect as well as the number of people, unlike you, who have been here. i want to give special recognition to the wonderful librarian who keeps us all here in washington throughout the nation. she's been executive director of the festival. jennifer gavin as project manager. john cole, long time head of our senator was a state senator and the author's coordinator to the

direct or of development and the volunteers made up of library staff who are here on their own time. this is not their duty, but it is a pleasure and also members of the junior league, half a thousand of them and other individuals just love the book festival. the volunteers return year after year to help. we couldn't manage a book festival without them. stafford fleishman hilliard does their special accommodation for logistics at getting tents have been solving type allergy that has made communications possible. on the security staff, we are ensuring the books have a happy experience for all the booklovers to join us this weekend. i think we are especially grateful for the many who have brought their children celebrated the multigenerational world and reading to each other and extending the conversations

that you never quite had with that screen in front of you with one another. so is grateful to many, many sponsors who have contributed the financial resources of the partner institution with all kinds of tracks that made this event not only possible, but sustaining. i want to especially mention our cochairman other new board for the festival. david rubenstein has been a great benefactor and unfortunately he can't be here today, that deserves a great thanks. he is cochairman with me of this great board we have done this many members are here and we think them. finally, we think the authors and publishers are making the book and having them come a lie. the book festival on the national mall and a can of landmark and continuing event here in washington. [applause]

and noble laureates and we began the festival this year but they reading yesterday and reminded me that innova luria in science said, you know, he said they've reached the conclusion that the human brain is wired for narratives. and so we close our festival today with a man who was gone more or less than you can imagine into a fresh and new weight into parts of the unique narrative with the history of the united states of america. he's twice won the pulitzer prize for harry chairman and john on this. out of the relative neglect that they had received compared to the president's that preceded

and succeeded. after all, john adams is president between church rushing 10 and thomas jefferson. harry truman between you and clint roosevelt and. all are accounted figures, and history at a new icon who humanized history. and he is also celebrated the human stories behind great event that the building of the panama canal, the brooklyn bridge and also a historic tragedies like the johnstown flood. david mccullough is our season chronicler. his latest book is the greater journey, americans in paris. the 19th century story of americans turning back across the atlantic to discover the science, the art and learning of the old world, even at a time when other americans were churning physically to this specifics to discover national resources, national beauty of

challenges of the american frontier. america was opening up a new world physically in the west while in reaching itself culturally and intellectually in the great city of lights and the journey eastward across the sea. ladies and gentlemen, david mccullough came into my office two days after the first national book festival to say how important it was to continue to do this kind of event nationally and he offered to help in any way he could. one day after that came, the unspeakable tragedy of 9/11, one of the darkest days and all the narrative of our national life. but he came back next year to get the final talk at the book festival a year later and he ended it and away he he would not forget.

some suggested you have to regulate what people think and write and even read and he ended it with just two words, we don't. [applause] we are glad to have him here, the medal of freedom winner back in the first two-day national book festival whichever happens first of the second decade of this wonderful event with the library of congress are so privileged to share with you all. ladies and gentlemen, david mccullough. [applause] [applause]

>> thank you. match. thank you. thank you. match. what a thrill. what a thrill to be here among people who believe in ideas and the printed word and the use of the language initiate. as expressed in books and writing. and what a tremendous pleasure and grill and honor it is to be introduced by james billington. [applause] we have had a number of eminent distinguished libraries of congress. archibald molise, the famous poet coming daniel boorstin, the scholar and historian and attorney. but we have never had in a more accomplished, picked up his

inspirational or farsi and library of congress and james billington. [applause] i like to think of our library of congress is the mother church for a national public library system, one of the greatest institutions in american life. free to the people. [applause] just imagine every single citizen, everybody of every age in this country can get essentially a free education by going to the public library. [applause] and furthermore, after one has finished once formal education, one can then begin the great adventure of learning, which is for the rest of your life through the public library.

[applause] and so please let's not ever forget it but it isn't just the books from library or the manuscripts or the back issues of newspapers and the maps that are of value, but the people who work there, the librarians. [applause] it took me a while to catch onto this when i first started doing research for my work that as i went up to the library and told her or him what it was i was trying to do, what i was trying to achieve and how much a dog now, they went right to work for me and solved all kinds of problems and they still do and night for ever and that it is done. [applause] i'd like to begin with a couple of lessons from history.

there are an ever lessons history of course. just a future sorted set the scene. one of them if you can make a very good case and i try to make the case that nothing ever happened in the past. nobody ever lived in the past. they lived in the present, that it was their president, not ours. but they didn't live in the past. washington, john adams, jefferson did walk around saying this is fascinating living in the past. [laughter] are we picturesque interphone a close. [laughter] nor did they at any idea how would turn out anymore than we do. very important point. they couldn't foresee the future anymore than we can. there's no such thing as the foreseeable future. just as there's no such thing as a man or woman or a man made man. it doesn't happen. life is a joint effort.

a great accomplishment is a joint effort. education is a joint effort. progress is a joint effort. a nation is a joint effort. and we have to see it that way. one of the key fact here is that all of our accomplishments, all i let's come each and every one of us has been our teachers. we are more indebted to our teachers than anybody in our society. [applause] >> yes. and let's not do any thing that makes their job harder. [applause] each and every one of us i hope has had one or two teachers who have changed our lives, be made to see an open net the window and let in the fresh air and

changed her outlook, changed her love of learning, which is really what it's about. curiosity. curiosity is one of the essential elements of being a human being. curiosity is what separates us from the cabbages. in its accelerators, like gravity. the more we know, the water we want to know. and i applaud particularly those teachers who encourage their students to ask questions, not just to know the answers to every question, but to ask questions because by asking questions you find things out. and later in life especially, i have never embarked on a project for one of my books. this is a confession in front of a large and their imports in influential. i have never embarked on a subject that i knew all about.

i knew something about them. i knew enough there was interesting to me in a compelled to want to write about it. but more important to know more about it. if you knew all about it i would want to take on the book because while with the use speed? it wouldn't be an adventure. i want to tell you how this present book of mine got its start or at least a good match in the right direction. it happens three-tiered washington. i was driving down massachusetts avenue one warning during the rush hour and all of the sudden right i sheridan circle, just past embassy row, there was an horrific traffic jam. everything stopped. i like over and there is still shared and upon its course. the requisite on his hat and i began to wonder, how many people who go around the circle every day twice a day, thousands of

them has any idea who he was? and as i that i'm getting a little discouraged, rhapsody in blue began playing on the car radio and suddenly the magic, the power that music not only lifted me out of my traffic jam doldrums, that sent me soaring. and then i thought, who is more alive in our world today, interlace today? sure men or gershwin? who is more important to american history? charmin or gershwin? of course they are both important. but we must not leave kircher and out of there. history is much more than just politics and the military. i'll say it again. history is much more than politics and the military. [applause]

there are as many of you appreciate them though, may be far more than i do, certain features and civilizations which we know is their art and their architecture. so we must take art and architecture and music and poetry and drama and dance in science and ideas seriously as a subject for history. it's who we are as human beings. take away will account for it, take away mark twain, take a weaker showing, take away winslow homer. take away the poets of our time and times before walt whitman. it's as if you took away the mississippi river or the rocky mountains. we wouldn't feel the same way about who we are. and of course, some of our greatest statesmen of all have

in their own way but masters of a literary forum. lincoln's second and now you're letraset they work of art. and here we are and this magnificent capital of are surrounded by science, art, music, history, all part of the story. so it couldn't be a more appropriate place for us to give our respect and our belief in that we have to do more to understand the history of our culture. and we have to keep on teaching the culture that we professed. [applause] we cannot -- we cannot, we must cut back on our programs, music programs, theodore. [applause]

and we must concentrate on what our children and grandchildren are reading. when i set out to try and understand somebody about whom i am writing, i try of course to read with a wrote. and because of our wonderful libraries, like the library of congress, university libraries, letters and diaries have survived to take us into the lives of these managed people. and you get to know them in a way that you can't get to know people in real life. in some ways you get to know them better than you know people in real life because in real life you don't get to read other people's mail. ..

our vocabulary shapes how we think. we think with the words, and when we have a student body whose vocabulary's are declining, their vocabulary, the total number of words they know and use in everyday language is declining.deining we probe got a very serious problem and it has to be faced be faced and one of the best of all ways is to make sure we know what they are reading and to encourage them to read the best work possible and encourage the best teachers who are showing them what they, the teachers love. show them what you love is what the great teachers have all known what to do. now, in my book about the

americans who went to paris, i'm writing about a generation beginning about 1830 extending into 1900, really two generations who went to paris not because they are alienated with american life for american culture, not because they were angry or feeling an overwhelming sense of self pity. quite the contrary. they were going there to improve themselves, to better serve their country and they said so again and again not to serve their country in politics or the military but served their country to the best of their ability. the desire to xl, ambition to excel. not to be wealthy or famous, not to be powerful, but to excel whether they were painters thomas physicians, writers, sculptors, physicians or in one case a politician named charles

sumner who wanted to improve his mind, wanted to come back with a greater sense of civilization. in the public garden boston there's a statue for carol sumner. all it says is sumner. there is no explanation, no explanation of who he was worth a sculptor was. most people i think probably in one of the thousand people have no idea who he was or any thought about it is probably he built the tunnel which he did not. the charles sumner went to attend lectures and he attended them of all kinds and he took notes and crammed before he started his lecture attendance and he became quite fluent and he took notes on everything

imaginable, and one day his mind began to strain a little because the professor was running on a little longer than he expected, so she began looking around at the other students in the hall. cahal is still there by the way and close to a thousand students in cahal and he noticed that the black students were treated just like everyone else, they talked the same as everyone else, they addressed the same as everyone else and they had the same ambitions that he had, and he wrote in his journal that night i wonder if the way we treat black people at home had more to do with how we have been taught them of the nature of things and it transformed him overnight literally overnight into an abolitionist, and he came back, got into politics and was elected to the united states senate when he was 40-years-old, and right up there on the hill

he led the abolitionist movement in the senate with the strongest most powerful voice of all. second only to abraham lincoln in how he was felt as a force cahal a. if he was almost beat to death by a congressman from south carolina who attacked him, blindsided him with a heavy walking stick and a virtually killed him from which sumner never really recovered either psychologically or physically. that man, that remarkable man was changed by his experience in paris, and we were changed as a people in the country as a consequence and if you think that is something of an exaggeration when john brown and his band of men and kansas heard about what happened to some are, that is what caused them to at

tak and became known as the potawatomi massacre which is blamed on the country when that story broke to get one of the lessons of history is one thing always leads to another just as in a real life which is one of the reasons among the many reasons we have to do a better job of teaching our children and grandchildren history. [applause] i want to read you something written by an irish boy who was almost 21-years-old, not quite clear that no money, no friends in high places, but he was ambitious to be a painter, so he went to paris to study art and he succeeded in a magnificent fashion which is a story unto

itself. here is what he wrote. in those far off days there were no art schools in america, no drawling class's, and very few pictures on exhibit. i knew no one in france. i was utterly ignorant of the language. i was not yet 21 and i had courage and an experience which is sometimes a great help akaka to the desire to do my very best. that young man was the most accomplished and commissioned a portrait artist on both sides of the atlantic. he painted a virtually everybody and anybody who was anybody on

both sides. right now there are seven portraits by george healy hanging in the white house. there are 17 portraits by george healy tannin national portrait gallery and over in the courtroom gallery over in the portrait gallery is his great picture of abraham lincoln in illinois and springfield just after linking done that he had been elected president in the was while he was sitting for that portrait healy was painting him without his beard and he read aloud the letter from the young woman telling him that he would be much more handsome if he grew a beard and lincoln turned to him and said would you like to paint me with a beard and healy in all honesty said no, sir, i would not.

[laughter] so it's one of the very few images in color by a painter that we have of abraham lincoln and one of the greatest love all of healy's portraits. another healy portrait of abraham lincoln hangs over the mantelpiece in the state dining room at the white house. here is this young man who had known advantages colin none. he had never been to college, art school, who decided to take it upon himself to do this. am i consensus, my thesis is not all high in the years went west and that is what this book is largely about. oliver wendell holmes sr. was a poet and essayist. he'd already written a popular poem called old odierno site which is what kept the uss constitution the famous ship in boston from going. holmes decided he wanted to be a

doctor and in order to get the finest medical education possible, he had to go to paris. not so much because of the medical training in paris was advanced on our terms, but it was infinitely far advanced by the terms of the 19th century and particularly way ahead of american medicine. american medicine was prophetically backward. there were very few medical schools. over half of all the doctors at the united states in the 1830's and 1840's had never been to medical school and a trade with other doctors that had never been to medical school. the harvard medical school have a faculty of about seven. and when they got to paris the brimley medical school of several thousand students being taught by the greatest physicians in france who were the greatest physicians of the world. it was a leading medical center of the world. and to go there in two years they could learn as much or more than they would work in general

practice here in ten years. now there were two very important reasons for this. apart from the fact that we were so far behind and because paris was paris. it was the cultural capital of the world. both of these reasons had to do with our culture, our society, our moral rules and regulations than it had to do with science. most american women at that time would have truly literally preferred to have died than to have a man examine their body and since all doctors were men, thousands of women died unnecessarily because of that. in france and europe there was no stigma about women being examined for illness or bird or whatever by male physicians, and equally important, students could make the rounds with a trained physician in the

hospital to watch the physician attending during examination of the women patients. the second very important roadblock for us was the strong opposition to the use of cadavers. in many states, half of the states they were illegal. of what that meant was there was a black market for human bodies, and because of that, the bodies were very expensive and because of that, students almost never got to dissect a cadaver whereas in paris again in france there was no stigma about it and so bisecting for hours at the time every day for years at the time was an enormous part of their training, and one of the young american students who loved this best became extremely good at was young oliver wendell holmes,

senior, who came back from the training in paris to teach anatomy at harvard for more than 35 years, devoting his entire professional life to science. i bring up holmes primarily because he is only one example of the people who went to paris who came home to teach. they came home to teach in art schools and medical schools. they came home to teach and while school and to teach english and writing in our universities and the changed our educational system to a much greater degree than most people have any idea. one of my favorite characters of all that i was able to write about is elizabeth blackwell who was the first female doctor, american female doctor in our country. another was the wonderful creator of the m l bluebird

school in truly new york who was the first woman to champion higher education for women in america and spend her whole life and education. but if people like john singer sargent who's in a ability as a prodigy. painting the greatest pictures by an american when he was still in his 20s and paris working primarily under a french painter who really was his master and send him down to spain to study because he said everything you need to know is founded in alaska. it goes on and on. and augusta who liked george healy was a boy growing up on the streets of the city in new york went to work when he was always 13-years-old by his father, very little vacation but they've great deal of talent and

this drives, this desire to excel, and he became the great american sculptor of the 19th century. in my view the greatest american sculptor ever. and we have his monuments to our history and many of the most important spots. the greatest work in my view is the memorial on beacon hill in boston which is the first work of american art by a major american sculptor or paynter which portrays black americans in a heroic role. it's about the 54th regiment of massachusetts that served under captain shaw and so many of whom were killed at fort wagner and if you have seen the movie glory, you know what that's about. it is a breathtaking and immortal work. there's a gilded reproduction of

it that's a duplicate of it here in the national gallery, and there is another very important piece in the cemetery here which is his monument to clover adams the wife of henry adams, the mysterious figure with a shawl over the head which is also to be seen in a duplicative version of the national portrait gallery. the great statue of general sherman stands at 59th street and the entrance to central park right across the plaza hotel also i think is the greatest sequester and a statue in america. here is this boy who was a shoemaker's son and he did indeed desire to excel and he did indeed xl and he did bring it home, and i want to read you

something that he rode. this is years after coming back from paris after completing the sherman statute. writing to his friend who was a very good american painter who had also been in paris and old fellow telling him about coming home. i've had a wonderful experience and it's been surprising in many respects, one of which is to find out how much of an american i am. i belong in america, that is my home. he was ready to come home, and he felt he was coming home with the best in him that would be impossible if he stayed home. we owe more to our friendship

and association with france than we have any idea. we know about lafayette of course but let's not forget the french army that served in the revolutionary war was crucial under russian boe and the army under russian though was as big as the american army under washington and the money that they loaned and the fact that the country was more than double the louisiana purchase. the fact that the greatest tribute to our creed, if you will, as a gift from another country from france, the statue of liberty which stands of course that our greatest port of entry in the country. the friendship left their names all over the states and cities and colleges and universities.

we may not pronounced them correctly but they are french names, and of course let's not ever forget that more americans, more of our equal in france than any other place in the world except our own country because of those who died in world war i and world war ii, and if you've ever been to a battlefield and normandie for the battlefields of the first world war which in many ways are even more moving because nobody goes to see them anymore, you know what the toll it took. we are, again, more indebted to other people than we have any idea. and we are particularly indebted to all those people who preceded us, who preceded us as painters, writers, artists and left us the

poetry we love and the architecture we loved and the buildings that have shaped us after we ship them and we are indebted to those who have the fundamental ability and character to express the best of our intentions of words that have survived who were not just dependent on tomorrows toll or reading or getting our fees' is on television as the purpose of a duty to achieving high office, but who were trying to do what's best for the country. and when you read about these young americans who are going to serve in medicine and painting and the feeder and to do what they did for the best of their

country, it is inspiring beyond any way i can express' at least right now this afternoon for you. on we go. [applause] be a bittersweet moment for north carolina. >> we are back live at the national book festival in washington, d.c.. this is our final yvette of the weekend of coverage on book tv in he phy tentand here in the history and biography prize-winning historian david mccullough. we also have a studio audience as well. we will be taking your calls, e-mails, tweets. we will put those numbers up and we will begin right away with a call from manville new jersey.

new jersey, you are on with historian david mccullough. >> caller: hello, mr. mccullough. first i want to say that you are a very good author. i read your book john adams and truman. both are very good. and my question is -- my questions are what is the criteria you have for determining what people you are going to write about, and do you see any present historical events since the election of barack obama to write about in future books? >> thank you. mr. mccullough? >> i had trouble hearing the question but i gather he wants to know what i think about the present situation in relation to other times and other presidents. my specialty is deceased presidents. [laughter]

but i think we can all take samples from the best that have held the office. i think one of the lessons of history is exceptional presidents are the exception, and we should not expect every president to be exceptional. and not every president is going to be a george washington or abraham lincoln or franklin roosevelt or harry truman or dwight eisenhower. it doesn't happen that often. with the case of roosevelt, truman and eisenhower, you have three right in a row. that is unusual. and of course some presidents have time in office cut off by tragedy or assassination, and we never will know what extent they might have seen in them at six excel. what to look for in a president among other things is how have they handled failure in their lives before they became president? because every president is going to have to face disappointment and failure.

it's extremely important that they have had some experience in handling that. it's also i think extremely important to understand if -- i really mean this, what degree do they have a sense of history. all of our best presidents are exceptional presidents without exception have been presidents who have a sense of history who read history in some cases wrote history and cared about history and biography. the only obvious who never went to college would be abraham lincoln and harry truman and both of them read history in particular all the time. because as i mentioned earlier history gives you model the dozens of calls and affect but gives you a very profound sense that what they seem to be terribly important or terribly popular or unpopular at the moment may not be what counts in the long run and the president has to make decisions on what will matter most of what will be

best for the country were the world in the long run. and to forget about tomorrow morning's hid lines and poles if at all possible and that takes a certain kind of gumption, it takes a certain kind of self-confidence. and it isn't just that they have to have courage. this is a think maybe the most important point. they have to have the courage of their convictions. [applause] >> mr. mccullough, we received this e-mail in tampa florida. what is your next book and would you consider doing one on ben franklin, lincoln or washington? >> i don't know what my next book will be right at the moment. i'm practicing putting my feet up and taking a bit of a breather. i spent four very happy and busy years writing about a greater germany and it was in many ways

the most enjoyable and interesting experience of my writing life. i always have a marketing list if you will a shopping list of ideas that i keep coming and i've been keeping it for years. future books and right now i think there are 27 ideas on the list. so i'm going to have to live a very long time in order to do it. [applause] but something happens, something daucks. ..yesterday and she mentioned e same feeling and i have never heard her say that before. it was thrilling to me to feel she has this same idea. it's all well and good to say such and such and so and so would make a great subject for a book. probably they would. first of all i'm not interested in the subject so much as i interested in the story.

when james billington complimented me on my book as having a narrative attraction and narrative paul, that to me is exactly what i would hope the reader feels. i want to tell a story. i think one of the problems with the boredom that comes with a lot history as it is taught and read is that it is the subject, not a story, and i want to give you a very quick example of a story as opposed to a subject, and this comes from forrester's book on the art of fiction which applies also to the narrative of history or biography. he said if i tell you the king by the and the queen died that is the sequence of events. if i tell you the king died and the queen died of grief, that is a story. so i moved by the story and i'm really moved by the story and excited about pursuing the

subject of the story for three, four, 54 more years than i can't pull back. something clicks and i just feel i have to do it this is the one. it's not a question of what's going to be on people's minds or with the subject hasn't been done. it has all to do i want to do it, and my burning to do it, is this the book i have to write right now and i know when it happens. so far it has happened many times. >> we will go to the question in the audience. >> thank you. mr. mccullough, linus carmen and during my training i trained as a scientist. what i saw was many students coming to america to train from china from india from all over the world, and my question to you is thinking about those americans in paris, what is it you hope those pioneers in other nations will take away from our nation, and how can we of their colleagues give the best of the country has to offer?

spec that's a wonderful inappropriate question. thank you. >> we have created through our civilization over several hundred years the greatest institutions of higher learning in the world, the greatest universities in the world. and yet, our educational system below higher education has slipped steadily in recent years, and it's like all serious questions and problems it isn't answered simply. but the fact is our universities are phenomenal. and particularly now in science and medicine. and it's no wonder students want to come here from every part of the world and the should come and they should be welcomed here and they should be encouraged once they complete their training if they wish to stay to stay. [applause]

it is so short-sighted, so stupid. [applause] to give them all this advantage and to welcome them into our country. i went to yale university there are now students at yale university from 100 different countries. imagine. that's a thrilling. think what the american students, who are going to college and university and graduate school with those on our students are learning from them. it couldn't be a better sign of progress to come. and i say let's do everything we can to keep them coming our way and let's do everything we can to get the best of them to express some of their ambition and their gift share in this country at least for a while if not for life. >> a to boca raton florida.

you are on book tv. >> i greatly enjoyed your book a greater germany. you did a beautiful job of explaining and describing the 19th century and in particular you use the two historical even some of the franco prussian war and the -- to show what was going on in the country, but you never mentioned the case that was some important particularly in the intellectual world. what is your thought about that? >> mr. mccullough? >> i didn't go into that because it was an immensely larger story and i didn't find any of the characters i was writing about who became involved with it. henry adams became involved in impleader ron after 1900. and goodness knows there were plenty who cared about it.

it wasn't what concerned or changed the character always writing about. in this book i did not in the according to the calendar. i did not end according to the historic event it ended in 1900 but that was because at that point augusta was so ill she had to come back to the united states, he left paris and the was the end of my book. i had to leave a lot out of this book. i had to leave a lot of people out of this book otherwise it would have become a catalog, and catalogs are not generally very compelling reading. but think you for the question. i do want to make one point, however, which i didn't have time to talk about why i was giving my earlier talk, and that is that it was at the library of congress for this book that my research assistant, mike hill sound and let me to one of the

greatest discoveries of my working life and that is the diary of wash work which was in the library of congress but wasn't known to be there because it had been filed and bound in such a way that the diary pages were mixed with a letter pages so unless someone sat down and went through all of it very carefully we wouldn't realize many, nearly 100 of these pages were diary entries, and these were whether press copies of the diary and the was the 19th century equivalent of carbon paper. if the letterpress copies were in the congress where workers the original diary and we found the original in a little town of livermore maine, the exact original diary, and that diary is a day-to-day chronicle written by our minister to france elihu washburn, a former

congressman, a former very important congressman from illinois also through the civil war who went to paris thinking he was going to get a chance to rest a little bit, with his family enjoy the life of living in france and a riot right on the eve of the franco prussian war which was terrific both when paris was under siege surrounded by the german army and leader when the civil war broke out in paris and in what became known as the horrible commune. he never left his post. he refused to leave when all the other diplomats from all the other major powers left, he insisted he had to stay on it was his duty as long as there were americans still there and if he had done that he would be a hero but he also kept a diary like no other diary of that historic event through that suffering and loss of life that helped shape the rest of history because the franco prussian war was really part one of the free

part tragedy called world war i and world war ii. and there it was right in the library of congress. the assumption that because things are in a great library somewhere doesn't mean the people who are in the library working with the collections looking after necessarily know where everything is or what connection it might have to something else because nobody has come looking for at. so every time you go looking for something, which turns out to be of some importance were great importance, you are in fact participating in the ongoing excitement of the library. you are helping to define that pleasure and what a treasure this is. the library of congress is a house full of treasures. it's can cut's tomb. it's a miracle the greatest library in the world and how appropriate it sits up there on

our american acropolis. [applause] >> this is booktv on c-span2 and we are live from the national book festival continuing the conversation with historian david mccullough and we have another question here from the audience. >> mr. mccullough, i want to thank you for inspiring me to read more history which started when i read packed the see the building of the panama canal, a terrific book, and obviously building the patau canal was very difficult. what was the most difficult book that you wrote and why? >> the most difficult and ljungqvist project of my undertaking life was my biography of president truman, and the reason for that is that of any time that you in part on a book about a latter-day 20th century president after say from franklin roosevelt and on, you

are confronted with a mountain of material through which very few human beings can never make it while still alive. had i known what was involved in that book when i started out, i never would have tried to do it. so i'm glad i didn't know because i'm very glad now that i did it. it took ten years of my life. i had no idea that that is what would happen. and it wasn't that i objected to the work. it just went on and on and on, and of course in that case i was dealing with the subject that could be reached through living people. so i felt i had a very great responsibility and obligation to interview as many people as i could find who knew mr. truman or who were involved in incidences' or major events in which he was playing the protagonist role and i enjoyed that hugely and again it was

exciting. i interviewed one of his secret service guards with him virtually his whole time in office and after we were finished right here in washington after i was finished i thanked him to reply said thank you very much for giving me hours of your time. and when i feed how many people must ask you these questions over the years, she said mr. mccullough, no one has ever asked me these questions. so, the importance of verbal history of recorded history is extremely important now. and more so than ever because nobody writes letters anymore and nobody in high office, public office would dare keep a diary anymore. truly. it is a huge loss. future historians and mr. billington has been talking about this and warning people about this for years. future historians are going to have very little to work with. even in the interest and in

mortality, start keeping a diary, keep it every day, right about anything you want, local history, the family, you're own life, whatever, and when you feel that maybe the curtain is going to come down pretty soon give it to the library of congress and will be quoted for years because it will be the only diary in existence. [applause] [laughter] >> david mccullough, do you keep a diary? [laughter] >> no. however, however, i am married to my editor-in-chief who is one of the greatest letter writers still with us and who keeps records of everything, bless her heart and writes wonderful letters to our very large and somewhat far-flung family fortunately but to write letters and get your children to write letters. many of us here remember when you expected to write letters, when you went away to college if your great aunt hadn't heard

from you many weeks, your mother heard about it and then you heard about it you have the right and and that's not a bad way bringing children upper particularly when it is time to express gratitude. remember gratitude? it's a wonderful quality. we mustn't lose it. >> parcel george, thanks for holding to the door on book tv with historian david mccullough. >> thank you. mr. mccullough, i was reading your book 1776, and i would like you to comment on why there was no mention of the great american victory at charleston several weeks before the american independence declaration was made june 28th. >> well, because my book is focused on george washington and his troops and his generals and experience. this isn't a roving camera that covered the whole span of what was happening in the country at

that time. so there was much that i did not include or that i passed over lightly because that was not the point. the point was washington and his army and the question of whether they would or would not give up, but not whether they would or would not win but they seem to be virtually no chance whatsoever of winning of what they give up and never forget that one of the greatest of all of washington's many great qualities is he would not give up. so that's why i went by that. >> david mccullough, john and philadelphia e-mails to you what are you reading at the moment? >> well i just finished a fascinating book called the hair which amber eyes by the writer named [inaudible] with and it is one of the most interesting books i have read in years. it is about a family in vienna

and paris, a jewish family who were second only to the rothschilds not justin welch, but in their collecting of art treasures and what these works came to me to the family and the individuals and particularly what it means to one of their descendants, the author in the aftermath of the holocaust and it is beautifully written and it makes me a little upset because the man is a ceramic artist who's never written anything before. laughter to know, it's really wonderful. i have been reading rendell who is my favorite [crying] writers. i love good mysteries and particularly the mysteries of those who really know how to make that aspect work. these are great novelists, and i

reading trollope, who i love, and i just bought a number of new books that i intend to in oregon. i always have three to four different books going at once. i learned that from dr. gorgeous when i was writing about the panama canal. he always had four different books on his reading table and they will all be books about different interests, different categories, a medical book, novel, book of poetry, book of history and he would read each one every night for 20 minutes and then switched to the next one and that way he was getting a liberal arts education as life continued through his experiences. a gorgeous as you know helped eliminate yellow fever in the panel which made it possible for us to proceed with building the panama canal.

next question comes from the audience at the national book festival. >> i want to express my gratitude for your positive comments about teachers early on i have a background in history and i also enjoy reading your book. my question though is as you look at our students, one of five lessons from the history of america or otherwise that our students need to know before they graduate from high school. >> five lessens our students in history need to know before they graduate from high school. well, the first 1i would tell them is what i was told by a graduate students when i was a sophomore in college and not only had i never forgotten it, it changed my whole point of view about history to the point i now realize it helped change my life. he said i am not going to hold you responsible for any dates or quotations. i don't want to memorizing dates and i don't want you memorizing quotations. that is what books are for. you can look them up and i

thought that is what matters is what happened and why. i would want them to understand most definitely that the united states of america did not begin for the declaration of independence. there were hundreds of years of history before that happened. and particularly not to overlook or neglect because it is so rich and interesting the history of the native americans who were here before our ancestors arrived. [applause] i would want them to learn history through other means than the books and teachers. i would like them to learn history through music, through plays. i would like them to learn history by doing drawings themselves. i would like to learn history through architecture and so in other words bring them into the tent not just because of books

and quotations and dates and boring, don't deutsch boring because it isn't boring. it's about human beings. and then i would want them to -- i would want them to take on what i would call the lab techniques in order to teach history. one of your teachers here in the washington area, jim, has been doing much of that where he brings students and to study the different statues around town. they write papers about the statute. i would like to give them a photograph or show them a building maybe two or three students for one building or two or three students from one quarter of the city or the neighborhood and make a little -- they all have these little cameras around. making little documentary or write a play about it or a paper. do a joint effort. figure it out ourselves to make

them a figure it out themselves because when you come upon the answer yourself, when you resolve the mystery on your own, you never forget it. and finally, i don't know if that is 5412. [laughter] finally, let them have the chance, please, please, let them have the chance to work with the original documents. to hold those pieces of paper or the nearest facsimile possible in their hands to go to the library of congress, to go to the national archives, to go to the smithsonian and get the idea that this was written by a human being with a piece of paper and pen and he was just as real as you are and he held it just about the same distance from his eyes as yours because you can connect with those people in a capital way that you can't connect in any other way and it really makes it come alive. the next best thing is take them where places have been caught

take them to historical sites, take them to gettysburg, to williamsburg and that's for parents and grandparents. it works. don't ever forget. go to the battle of gettysburg and suddenly it isn't something you have to memorize or spend one night trying to get ready for a test the next day. it is a huge world onto itself. the scale, the volume of it is almost beyond imagining. you suddenly realize the people that stood there were told you have to march up the hill and you're almost surely going to get killed. what made them do it? and try to picture what it was like an early july and all that wearing a wool uniforms and all the rest and they will never forget and it's very good that you show them you, the parent, grandparent, teacher showed them how much you are interested in it. show them what you love.

attitudes, great, teachers margaret mcfarlane once said attitudes aren't taught, they are caught. you catch the attitude of the teacher. if you're excited about it, if you are enthusiastic about it, if you're willing to take time out of your life to drive them up to pennsylvania to go to the gettysburg battlefield get that and they never forget when you come back the next day they may not show it to years later they would say that trip to gettysburg that's what started me. [applause] >> next call for david mccullough for boston massachusetts. boston, please go ahead with your question for mr. mccullough. >> caller: mr. mccullough, this is dick wingfield. i want to think you for bringing history alive to the american people and to me. i have every one of your books in your book case i'm looking at right now. i have to admit i haven't read any of them from cover to cover but once the most interesting

things i've ever read that you have written is an essay in a book a collection of books what if when you describe washington's crossing not the delaware but the east river for the most important defense in the history of our country very few of us know anything about and should know more about. they should be a monument in this $250 million park around the east river. i've written you a letter about that which i've never heard back from you on. [laughter] i spent, ironically i spent friday afternoon looking through your book at barnes and noble looking to see whether among the things that you've discovered in paris that was brought back to the united states was our engineering education. i notice i'm a graduate of one of the finest university schools in this country and i've never worked as an engineer in my life

but i got a great education there. years later i discovered an alumni magazine heavy engineering educational program in the country was developed. it turns out it was developed by the west point going to the military in paris. spec we're going to leave it there. thank you for calling in from boston. mr. mccullough, anything you'd like to respond to? >> he is quite right. my first experience is washington roebling, the son of roebling who designed the brooklyn bridge said his son to paris to study how the french developed what they called the qassam system for underwater foundations, for bridges and it's because of that training that young washington roebling received and young washington roebling leader after his father's death took over the responsibility for building the brooklyn bridge. ..

>> he wanted to make himself better. it was while he was there, noticing what the french were doing in science that he got the idea for the telegram. it's continuous. and, of course, more so now today when so much of the advances in medicine and sciency of medicine, the science in general and technology arene

coming from all parts of the scie world. that's exciting.in gener and t there are no barriers.ming from wost as there should be no barriers between science andusta art. there should be no barriers between science and art. the fact that morris was both a painter and a scientist was not seen as incongruous or somehow a contradiction. so be careful if you tell your children or your grandchildren you're good in math and science, stay away from english, history or art. nonsense. they should be interested in everything. [applause] >> this is c-span2 at the national book festival. another question from the audience. >> mr. mccullough, thank you for your kind words from your teachers. we try every day to get our students excited about learning. my question is about john adams. how many years did you spend with john researching and writing and what was the best part of it? was there something that you

discovered that was a complete surprise? >> i spent seven years working on john adams. and the best part of it was that both he and abigail not only wrote letters and diaries, they poured out their hearts, their innermost feelings, their worries, their frustrations, their anger, their doubt, their affection for each other in those letters as very few men and women ever have. and if they'd done nothing but write the letters, our indebtedness to them would be enormous. there's no better window on life in 18th century american family or 18th century american couple than the letters of john and abigail adams and their families all continued in the same tradition. the letters of abigail and john adams are all in the massachusetts historical society. as are the letters and diaries and papers of their distinguished son, john quincy

adams, enumerable diplomats, writers, henry adams, and down the line are all in the massachusetts historical society. and to give -- and they're all on microfilm. and to give you an idea of how many letters that family wrote, if you stretch that microfilm out, it would reach farther than 5 miles. it's not just daunting but it's unimaginable and it's sensational they are beautifully written. you pick up john quincy adams diaries and there's a word crossed out. there's never a change. and the handwriting is superb. he never seems to have a second thought. [laughter] >> truly. we've had some presidents who have immense genius and high iq, really, we have. [laughter] >> and by the way, they were

never dismissed as being elite. [applause] >> but i think maybe the most brilliant one of all, just as a mind was john quincy adams. about whom we should know much more. who was responsible for the smithsonian. who was responsible for all kinds of ideas that were a little bit ahead of his time. if i had to pick one moment, it would be when i saw -- it's in the boston public library, john quincy's first book he ever bought, which is -- i'm sorry. john adams' first book. it's a little volume of cicero in latin. he got it when he was 14 years old. we don't know whether he paid for it with his own money or

whether he was given it. but he was so proud to own that book that he wrote his name in it six times. [laughter] >> that man never stopped reading. ever. ever, ever. when he was in his 80s he embarked on a 16 volume on the history of france in french, which he had taught himself. and that light, that fire was burning in that head right to his last day of life. he had every kind of ailment. he lost his hair, lost his teeth. but he hadn't lost any of that upstairs. a thrilling example of the life force of the brain and of ideas. >> san jose, california, booktv, david mccullough, go ahead with your question. >> caller: regarding an era when americans were drawn to paris, did london have a similar draw on americans? if not, why not?

>> hos >> guest: did who? >> host: london. >> guest: yes, with sculptors and painters. london was a big draw for writers, some of whom never came back and lived there the rest of their lives, henry james, for example. and it was a draw for painters, too. whistler round up living in london as did john singer sergeant. and it was, of course, a draw for all kinds of people who wanted to go and explore the experience of our own language. scholars who wanted to know more about shakespeare or thomas hardy or whatever. and we are, of course, far more english than we probably recognize or want particularly to be reminded of. but let's all understand -- we all educated with english literature. we were all brought up in the traditions of english law. again, none of these things just hatched overnight here.

they came to us through many channels. but our indebtedness to great britain, not just england and let us not ever forget ireland. [laughter] [applause] >> host: david mccullough, the subtitle of your newest book is americans in paris and on the back of it is a picture of an american in paris. i think our television audience will be able to see this better than our studio audience. but where was this picture taken? >> guest: that was taken right outside of the sorbonne on the left bank, same school where so many of these young people studied. still there. just the same. there's a little outdoor cafe right there for everybody to enjoy. it was a beautiful september day. and it was taken by my son, bill, who was with his wife and with rosalie and me when we were there. i'm often asked a couple of things i'd like to make a point about. one is, did i -- i must have spent a lot of time in paris.

well, i would have liked to spent a lot of time in paris but i really didn't have to because the material, the letters and diaries are all here. a very large percentage of them right up there in the library of congress. what we would do is we'd go over about once a year for two weeks or more to see how much i got wrong. [laughter] >> guest: to walk around -- walk the walk, make sure i understood how long it was to get from here to there and what the restaurant really did look like and the hotel and so forth. and, of course, it's just astonishing how much all is still is there and that's part of the fun of tracking it all down. augustus st. gardens apartment is still there. the hotel where so many of them stayed. the hotel louvre where we would stay because we felt all good vibrations is all still there. the other thing i'd like to point out and particularly for students would be fellow biographers or historians -- i

am often asked, understandably, perfectly good question, how much of my time do i spend writing and how much of my time do i spend doing research? what i am never asked, never have been asked is how much of my time do i spend thinking? [laughter] >> guest: and that is in many ways the most important part of the process. it isn't just assembling all the research or just writing it out. it's thinking about what you found. putting it together with other things you found. thinking about the connections. thinking about what's not been said there, et cetera. and thinking about what you've written, thinking about how it can be made briefer, more to the point, more focused. how you can get rid of the unnecessary lumber in it. and not tax the patience and good will of your student or your reader.

it's essential. and thinking is a good idea in life. [laughter] >> we all ought to think more. [applause] >> and if you know people who talk on television for a living, would you please encourage them to think a little more. [laughter] [applause] >> host: let me earn some money now. david, you dedicate this book to rosalie. is she here. >> guest: here's my chance. how much time do we have. >> host: you got all the time >> guest: rosalie is my editor in chief. she's the mother of our five children, the grandmother of our 18 grandchildren. and she is mission control for all of us. and secretary of the treasury. [laughter] >> guest: and chair of the ethics committee.

[laughter] >> guest: and she's my guiding star and the best dancer i ever danced with in my life. and i want you to meet her. here she is. please stand up, sweetheart. mra[applause] >> host: all right. back to questions for david mccullough here on booktv on c-span2. another question from the audience. >> caller: i'll begin by thanking you as so much -- can you guys hear me? >> host: a little louder, please >> is this good. all righty. my name is ian hitchcock, mr. mccullough, i would like to thank you for all your contributions to bringing history alive for all of us. my question is about the founding fathers and the way we interpret that history. i've recently been reading a people's history of the united states by the late historian and activist howard zinn. [applause] will >> amen.

and he proposes our awe toward the founders, our sense of their nobility and the grandeur of their ideas can sometimes mask what the true effects of the constitution might have been. in particular, he should we should analyze the constitution through its economic rather than its political methods and i wondered about your thoughts on that? >> guest: well, i knew howard zinn. i liked him very much and i agreed with much he professed and i don't agree with everything he professed. i think it's important to take an economic interpretation of lots about life and history. but i would not make it dominant any more else history is composed of. i think it's a great mistake to see the founders as god-like characters. they were human beings. there isn't one of them that didn't have his failings or faults. some of them grievous failings and faults. and they were inconsistent.

to say that they were all devout christians, for example, is not true. now, some were very devout. some were middle devout. some were hardly devout. and some were agnostics. and they are human beings and they had ideas. now, one reason i like john adams so much is that john adams is the only founding father who never owned a slave as a matter of principle. mra[applause] >> so when we profess all men are created equal, who are we kidding? and adams and jefferson were not participants in the constitution. but the constitution, which was done in philadelphia in the summer of 1787, was in many ways an extraordinary and immortal

achievement. but much of it was simply derived out of english tradition, english history. and some of it was grievously avoiding the issue. it's very interesting. we're raised and educated that the articles of confederation were inadequate, weak. it didn't give us is strong executive, et cetera, et cetera. but let's not forget that every time you have a winner, you shouldn't throw away what came in second. because sometimes what came in second it was in some ways superior what came in first. the article confederation, after all, is inadequate as it really was, succeeded in winning the revolutionary war. also, the same summer as the constitution, 1787, the congress under the articles of

confederation passed the northwest ordinance which created the five great states of the upper middle west. ohio, indiana, illinois, michigan and wisconsin. five states that composed an area bigger than all of france. hugely important part of our country. it's always, ever since. that charter, that law passed by that supposedly inadequate congress did two things that neither -- neither of which the constitution did. one, it said there will be public education. two, there will be no slavery. in other words, we had banned slavery in just huge part of the united states before we even wrote the constitution. and that's the kind of thing were better known and more appreciated. because the people who did that really pulled off something magnificent and brave. brave. i'm very interested in bravery.

not just bravery in battle but bravery with ideas, integrity and a willingness -- a willingness to go down to the feet if it's the right thing to do. the fact that john adams did not lead us into a war with france when we would have been headed for disaster deserves more credit. we need to judge more of these people not what they didn't do. not what they did do. eisenhower decided not to go into vietnam. and the letter he wrote about why we didn't go into vietnam ought to be in every classroom as a subject for discussion. but i'm straying from your question and thank you very much. [applause] . >> host: we only have a few minutes left with our guest. we have time we're going to take this call from imperial, pennsylvania, and then we're going to hear from the two young ladies up at the -- up at the mics here in the audience. imperial, pennsylvania, you're the last call for david

mccullough. >> caller: thank you. mr. mccullough i enjoyed your books i'm two-thirds of the book through truman. i'm curious is there any one thing that you have run across in your research, in any of your books that just totally surprised you and -- or took you aback and kind of made you say, wow? >> guest: well, i think as i said -- i hope i made clear the discovery of the washburn diary was as magnificent a find as anything i've experienced. when i was doing the johnstown book, i discovered -- because it had been saved by a man who had a camera shop on main street, testimony that had been taken by the pennsylvania railroad of all their employees who were in any way involved with the disaster

that happened. in lieu of potential lawsuits. well, there were no lawsuits which is inconceivable to us when, in fact, the railroad and others who owned the dam were very responsible for what happened. but here was this document -- the only copy in existence, and this one man -- just because he was interested in history had seen it about to be thrown out from a records -- an office full of old pennsylvania railroad records in town and saved it and showed it to me and there was a testimony, which was very interesting, but it also had the great value that it was verbatim of how they spoke then. it was in the vernacular of the language. whereas, most of the written language from the victorian era is often spruced up to give it a little more shine, either by newspaper writers or by people who want their words to be immortal. so i got to hear what happened

in the language of the day. but, again, and, again, it's happened and it's exciting. and sometimes it's something very small. very inconsequential. but it's often the small pieces built all together that create the larger mosaic, just as it's often the secondary characters, not the primary characters who tell you the most about the primary characters. and have the most honest recollections of what happened because they're not dressing it up in any way for their own benefit. so that when you're doing research on a subject, don't just look at the papers or the surviving diaries and letters of the people who are involved, who are well-known, but look at everybody else who you find because they often have much more else to say. and this was particularly true, for example, in working on harry truman. many of those people who were close to truman, as members of the white house staff, or members of his hometown friends

and so forth was infinitely valuable. >> host: the young lady right over here. >> mr. mccullough, when you're tackling these presidents like adams and jefferson that previous historians have written so much about, how important is it you find primary sources that nobody's used before? and can you still do that -- >> guest: i'm sorry. because of the airplane we couldn't hear you. >> oh, i'm sorry when you're tackling presidents like adams and jefferson is it important to find primary sources that no one's used before and can that still be done for presidents that we've all studied so much? thank you. >> guest: it depends with the president. thomas jefferson was an extremely private man. and he destroyed virtually every letter that would let us in the door to his private life. he wrote to his -- after the death of his wife, he destroyed everybody letter she ever wrote, every letter he ever wrote to her.

he would write to all their friends if you have any letters that my wife wrote to you, would you please return them i'd like to have them and when he got them back, he burned them so it's impossible to get beyond that shield of privacy that he established. which makes him a difficult problem in writing about him. we didn't even know what jefferson's wife even looked like. if it's -- if it's someone who hasn't really been looked over, worked over, it's incredible. when i started work on the adams book, one-third -- only one-third of adams' writings had ever been published. and probably less than that of abigail's. now, if it's somebody as i was just saying who's a secondary character, almost certainly those people haven't been

published at all. and my real love is to write about people who weren't big names in their day or weren't big names in history today. to work with the people who worked on the panama canal. to write about them. to get inside their lives, their experience. to work with not just oliver wendell holmes because he subsequently became well-known when he was a medical student in paris, but all the other young medical students. i could have written an entire book -- a major book just on the medical students who went to paris in just the 1830s. so rich is that material. and so consequential was what they learned of history and development of medicine in our country. it's like working on a detective case. the more you get onto it, the more you can't get off of it and

that's what's so exciting about it. and it should never be seen as some very difficult highly complicated profession which only the high priests of academe are qualified to undertake. we can all do it. i was an english major in college. i had no american history, whatsoever, in college. it wasn't until i got here in the 1960s -- i was working for the u.s. information agency. i'd taken john kennedy's call to serve the country entirely to heart. quit my job and came down to find a job to serve as best i could. and while i was here -- because of my work, i had to start using the library of congress. and while i was at the library of congress, i ran across photographs taken in johnstown, pennsylvania, right after the

disaster and i had grown up in that part of the pennsylvania and i looked at it, my god, i had no idea that this terrible destruction happened. over 2,500 people killed. what caused it? what happened? what went wrong? i took a book out of the library. it wasn't very good. i at least new the geography of pennsylvania, obviously, the author didn't. i took another book out of the library and it was even worse. and so i thought to myself, because of something that one of my professors at yale thornton wilder had said about how he got the ideas for his book, which was i try to imagine a story i'd like to see in a novel or i'd see performed on a stage and if nobody has written it i write it so i can see it performed on stage so i thought to myself, why don't you try the book about writing the book about the johnstown flood that you wish you could -- you were able to read. and every one of my books has been exactly that. i'm trying to write the book about this subject that i would like to read and the current book about the americans in paris in 1830s to 1900, i wish i

had been able to read a book about that and there wasn't one so i wrote it. [applause] >> host: and the final question on booktv for david mccullough comes from this young lady right here. >> hello, mr. mccullough, i also am a native of pittsburgh. yeah. and given its importance to our country over the course of its history with its steel and its importance during -- with the underground railroad and its importance as a major destination spot for the great urban migration, have you ever considered writing a story or book your hometown of pittsburgh? [applause] >> guest: i've been considering it for about 50 years. [laughter] >> guest: it's big, big subject. and i have to figure out in my mind how to shape it. let me just close with a thought

that i'm turning over in my head and it began with thinking about pittsburgh. when i grew up, pittsburgh was a giant mill town, steel town, the biggest steel production. they also made glass and all kinds of things. it was a mill town. and that's what we were proud of. and now that's all gone. all gone. what's there? what's replaced it? what do you think? who do you think is the biggest employer in pittsburgh now instead of steel production? the universities. the university of pittsburgh and the university of pittsburgh medical center, carnegie mellon and duquesne university. and they are the most exciting and the most far-reaching, far-sighted enterprise in pittsburgh. it's true in lots of places. we have transformed in from this

mill town of these thrilling universities in science and medicine and that's a major accomplishment. i kept thinking why can't westbound cathedral builders? why aren't we cathedral builders? what will our cathedral will be? maybe we're already building them, these great universities. and maybe that's what we ought to keep our mind on. [applause] >> guest: thank you all very much. >> host: david mccullough, ladies and gentlemen, all booktv. this is his latest book, the greater journey: americans in paris. this has been booktv covering the national book festival. we would also like to thank the librarian of congress james billington right dooern for responsing the national book festival. it expanded to two days this year. and we have a gift bag -- we were going to give it to david

mccullough but since the editor in chief we will give it to rosalie mccullough, thank you very much. booktv on c-span2. [inaudible conversations] so my good friends, this is not just another straightforward chronological biography of the crockett cradle to grave nor does it focus on just one slice from the big pie, the alamo. there is much more to crockett than the last few weeks of his life and it's not a regurgitation of the many many

miss and total lies pejorative of crockett over the years. this is a book for people interested in learning the truth, or at least as much as can be uncovered about both the historical and the fictional crockett and how the too often became one. and hopefully the readers will gain some new historical insight into the actual man and how he captured the imagination of his generation and later ones as well. so now a few spoonfuls from crockett, the lion of the west. and the first is just a graph or two from my preface. the authentic david crockett was first and foremost a three-dimensional human being, a

person with somewhat exaggerated hope and weld checked years. a man who had as we all view as both good points and bad points. he was somewhat idiosyncratic possessed of unusual views, prejudice and opinions that govern how she chose to live his life. crockett could be calculating and self aggrandizing but also as valley and and indeed as resourceful as anyone who roamed the american frontier. as a man he was both authentic and contrived. he was why is in the way of the wilderness and most comfortable when deep in the woods on the hunt. yet he also can hold his own in the halls of congress. the fact that distinguished him from so many other frontiers been remarkably she enjoyed fraternizing with men of power and received the fancy parlors of philadelphia and new york. crockett was like the other but

19th century enigma. he fought under andrew jackson in the ruinous indianan war only leader to become jackson's bitter foe on the issue of the issue of removal of indian tribes from their homeland. crockett's contradictions extended beyond politics. he had only a few months of formal education, yet he read. he was neither a buffoon more a great intellect but a man who was always devolving on the stage of a nation and its adolescence, a pioneer whose dreams reflected a restless nation with a miss pointed to the west. perhaps more than anyone of his time, david bose or first hero inspiring people with his own time as well ofs' the 20th century generation. the man, david crockett, may of perished march 6, 1836 in the

final assault on the alamo. but the mythical davie crockett, now an intricate part of the american psyche, perhaps more so than any other frontiers and, lives powerfully on. in this way, his story then becomes far more than 81 note walt disney legend while his life continues to shed light on the meaning of america's national character. the spoonful from a chapter entitled killed in a bar. [laughter] >> david crockett believed in the wind and in the stars. the son of tennessee could read the shadows and the wild klaus faultfinder. he was comfortable among the cambridge, the quagmire is and the mountain this. he hunted the old hickory, maple

and sweet forest that had never felt an ax blade. he was familiar with all the smells, the odor of decay animal flesh, the aroma of the air after the rain and the pungent smell of the forest. he knew the rivers flowing with sycamore and willow, the breach, the mountains through steep cited gorges with strange sounding names many within the influences like the french brawl, the hiwathy, the wataka, the oak. he sought the dimensions of leaks and streams started with ancient cypress and he learned the dog days a right not with the heat of august but in early july when the star rises and sets with the sun. he carried his compass and maps in his head. he traversed the land when it

was lost in the warm times and when it was covered with the frost the cherokees described as clouds frozen on the trees. the wilderness was indeed crockett's cathedral. you can watch this and other programs on line at booktv.org. next, military historian lewis sorely recounts the career of general william westmoreland, who led american forces in the vietnam war met from 1964-1968. mr. lewis sorely speaks of the national archives in washington, d.c. for about an hour. [applause] >> there are many people here who have encouraged and supported me over the long years of research and writing. i would like to acknowledge one in particular.

former colonel who's come from houston to be with us today. we've been friends since 1961 when, as captains, we were classmates at the school but fort knox. he served briefly and honorably during the long years of the vietnam war including an assignment as the chief. after the war he and his family came to america where things to incredibly hard work and find family values, they had prospered. he's also written steel and blood, an excellent book about vietnam war. ladies and gentlemen, colonel viet. [applause] >> as you know, we are going to talk today about the life and career of general westmoreland. i warn you at the outset this is

not a happy story. it is, i think, an important, even essentials one. my contention is that unless and until we understand william charles westmoreland, we will never fully understand what happened to us in vietnam or why. his involvement in the vietnam war was the defining aspect of his life. he himself received that and was driven for the rest of his days to characterize, explain, rationalize and defend that role. his memoirs reflect the fixation. in a long career totaling 36 years as an officer and a string of postings to increasingly important assignments, the four years he commanded american forces in vietnam and the aftermath constitute virtually the entire r. dee of the account of the best.

understanding westmoreland is not easy. he turns out to be a surprisingly complex man fueled by ambition, driving himself relentlessly of the impressive military means, energetic and effective at self-promotion and skillful at cultivating influential sponsors from as earliest days of service he led his contemporaries, was admired and advanced by his seniors and progress rapidly upwards. but few who served with him would claim they knew this distant and difficult man. general walter kerr when who was westmoreland's chief of staff in vietnam recalled that although they worked very closely together, he and westmoreland never had a personal relationship, never even come he

said, a normal conversation as colleagues ordinarily would. he couldn't get to him from a ship and that kind of thing kerwin remembered. westmoreland had an extraordinary capacity for polarizing the views of those who encountered him. few of whom remain indifferent. his executive officer when westmoreland was the army chief of staff described him as the most gracious and gentlemanly person with whom i ever served. and an executive officer, westmoreland had in vietnam regarded him as the only man he ever met that term great could be applied. there were others though, many others who held a darker view. among the most prominent was harold k. johnson, a man of surpassing decency and good

will. i don't happen to be a fan of general westmoreland's come said johnson, i don't think i ever was and i certainly didn't become one as a result of the vietnam war or leader during his tenure as chief of staff of the army. a general officer in other service reserved closely with westmoreland in viet nam -- vietnam described him as odd in his own significance. westmoreland was born and raised in semi rural south carolina near spartanburg, where his father was manager of a textile mill. and the eagle scout at age 15, president of his high school class, first captain at west point, westmoreland was encouraged from his earliest days to think of himself as especially gifted and specially privileged. his father wrote to him at

westmoreland saying you do not know how happy and proud it makes us all to know that you are making good. even the small boys and the negro's are interested and proud of it. and later in that same period he wrote to him again and said when you need anything right me and i will send it to you. there is nothing too good for you. and a subsequent letter still during westmoreland's please at west point when the people here said his father, white and black, think you are about the biggest man in the country. roosevelt has no act at all compared to you. they really believe you will be president of the u.s. someday and they taught this among themselves. westmoreland entered world war ii as the commander of an artillery in the ninth infantry division taking his unit into

combat in north africa. there they performed with distinction during the presidential unit citation. subsequently in sicily westmoreland served temporarily and then brigadier general maxwell taylor, then the division artillery commander of the 82nd airborne division and an association that would become extremely important to westmoreland throughout the rest of his career. after sicily for the rest of world war ii he was a staff officer. when the fighting was over he was given command of an infantry regiment for six months in the army of occupation. then add back in the united states westmoreland was able to get an assignment to the 82nd airborne division, where after attending school, he had a year in command of the 504 pair should infantry regiment and then three years as the division chief of staff.

then lead in the korean war westmoreland took command of the 187 airborne regiment combat team, a unit constituted the theater reserve and consequently was stationed in japan and periodically deployed to korea. westmoreland commanded the outfit for 15 months. of which nine months were spent in japan where after he had been promoted to brigadier he was able to live with his wife and their young first child, and six months of the 15 spent in korea. during one such corrine period when they were not in combat, westmoreland qualifying for the master parachute badge made 13 jumps in one day. after the war iraq on his part the corrine in sort of the 187, the presidential unit citation.

new brigadier westmoreland experienced his first pentagon duty with an assignment in personnel. i have not served there before, he said, speaking of the pentagon, and i didn't want to serve their then. but soon maxwell taylor became the chief of staff and rescued westmoreland from the personnel quality making him his secretary of the general staff. two years later, having in the meantime been promoted to the two star rank, westmoreland was rewarded by taylor with command of the 101st airborne division. things rose quickly for him after that. two years as a division commander followed by the three year assignment as the superintendent of the united states military academy at west point them promotion to lieutenant general and six months in command of the 18th airborne corps just long enough to qualify for another promotion soon thereafter.

westmoreland was sent to the vietnam in january, 1964. as deputy to the general who was then commanding u.s. forces there, then in june 1964 westmoreland replaced him as the commander of u.s. military assistance command vietnam, the start of the four year stint in that post for westmoreland. beginning in the spring of 1965, the end united states began deploying ground forces to vietnam. under westmoreland who decided to conduct a war of attrition, these forces concentrated almost entirely on the large unit search and destroy operations primarily in the deep jungle. fixated on these operations which were referred to by minn use the war of the big battalions, westmoreland largely ignored other responsibilities most importantly the upgrading

of south vietnam's chief of military forces and dealing with pacification. his way of the war did nothing to affect the situation in south vietnam's hamlets and villages where the enemy is covert infrastructure was left free to continue using force and terror to dominate the world populace. meanwhile, westmoreland deprived the south vietnamese of modern weaponry, giving the u.s. and other allied forces priority for the issue of the new m-16 rifle and other advanced military wherewithal. the south vietnamese went for years he coped with world war ii vintage the equipment while being held by the communists to were provided to great ak-47 assault rifle and other advanced equipment by their backers the soviet union and communist china it is very important to know

that it was left to westmoreland to devise his own approach to conduct the war. the conventional view of the war even now is that it was micromanaged from washington and there are many stories of how as we all know that lyndon johnson's white house, the famous luncheon and so on, he and other top civilian officials would even select and improved individual bombing targets in north vietnam. and things like that. but those decisions had to do with actions taken outside of south viet nam. within south vietnam, the u.s. commander had a very wide latitude in deciding how to fight the war. this was true for westmoreland coming and equally true for his eventual successor. this was not -- the latitude was not as concluded a good thing. there were many weaknesses in the strategy, he said, which is in the numerous ways played into

the hands of the enemy. for one, chasing around the countryside was few while. general philip davidson, westmoreland's chief intelligence officer said that westmoreland's interest always played in the big unit war. pacification bored him. and said davidson the search and destroy operations favored by westmoreland accomplished little in providing the secure environment which the pacification required. the measure of merit in the war of attrition was body count. westmoreland underestimated the enemy is staying power calculating that if he could inflict enough casualties on the communists they would lose heart and sikh aggression against south vietnam. instead, the enemy proved willing to absorb losses and still keep fighting, thus the

progress westmoreland claimed in racking up huge body counts did nothing to win a war. the enemy kept sending more and more replacements to make up his losses westmoreland was on a treadmill. westmoreland also underestimated the american people's patients yet tolerance of friendly losses. on a visit to south vietnam, senator hollings from westmoreland's home state of south carolina was told by westmoreland we are killing these people, the enemy come at a ratio of 10-1. said hollings, westie, the american people don't care about the ten, they care about the one. westmoreland didn't get it. westmoreland's response to any problems to request more troops. the result was a buildup of the u.s. contingent ground forces that eventually reached well

over half a million men but when the troup request kept coming there was no evident progress in winning the war washington's patients finally ran out. in the spring of 1967, westmoreland asked for 200,000 more troops but got only a fraction of that amount. at the time, he stated publicly that he was delighted with the of come but in his memoir he cited instead that he had been extremely disappointed. later still on the witness stand in the suit he brought against cbs television he changed stance again and said he had not been extremely disappointed in response to the cbs read from westmoreland's own book extremely disappointed. forcing westmoreland to recant. and then in the wake of the

enemy's 1968 offensive, westmoreland asked for another 206,000 troops, the request he then spent years denying he ever made, but he did. he got token forces and was soon on his way home. it is clear that westmoreland thought he could take the war over from the south vietnamese, bring it to a successful conclusion, then hand their country back to them and go home and laurie, but he could not. the ambassador bunker saw that this was the case, putting that when the united states first got involved, the political and psychological nature of the war was not understood, and he said because we didn't understand it we could get in and do the job and get out much more quickly than proven to be the case. i think, said ponder, that's one reason we were slow in training the vietnamese instead of

starting really to train them in an intensive way when we first went in there. we didn't begin to train the vietnamese with the objective of their taking over from us until general abrams got there. the disturbing and resources especially the weapons persisted throughout west mullen's tenure in vietnam. ambassador bunker noted in the reporting table to the president on the 29th of february, 1968 only weeks before westmoreland's departure after the four years in command. said under the enemy has been able to put his troops with increasingly sophisticated weapons they are in general better equipped than the forces which have an adverse bearing on moral. westmoreland had been in command of the forces for nearly four years and then later maintained he had done everything possible to build up the south vietnamese. another ambassador of the time,

general maxwell taylor, now i think weary of his sponsorship of westmoreland was even more blunt. we never really paid attention to the army. we didn't give a damn about them. not until general abrams came on the seat did this attitude change. this was a faithful times westmoreland's viet nam service. everyone agrees 1968 was a fateful year. 1967 was deeply so. during that year westmoreland made three trips to the united states and public appearances he gave a very optimistic assessment of how war was going, and this became the johnson administration progress offensive very, very encouraged said westmoreland in a plain

sight press conference upon arriving in the u.s. in mid november. i've never been more interest during my entire almost four years in the country. and after the national press club he asserted that we have reached an important point where the end begins to come into view, and he added the enemy's hopes are bankrupt. on another visit that year he spoke to the joint session of congress rendering another optimistic report and being so taken with the experience he later described as the most memorable moment in his military career and his finest hour which gave him the greatest personal satisfaction. i must say i find it both ironic and sad that a famous general find a political event the most satisfying of his military career. 1967 was also a time of vigorous debate about the enemy's order

of battle, which means his strength and organization. westmoreland denied officials i carry data by imposing a ceiling on the number of enemy forces his intelligence officers could report or agree to come and i personally removing from the order of the battle the entire categories that have long been included, thus falsely portraying progress in reducing enemy strength. by 1967, president johnson was referring to the war as a bloody in pass. military historian russell wagley commented succinctly on lbj, no president as he wrote would allow an officer of such limited capacity as general william westmoreland to head military assistance command vietnam for so long. meanwhile, westmoreland challenged by newsmen on his optimistic announcements resorted to his familiar

reliance on body count. we are bringing him a great deal more than he is pleading us, said westmoreland. westmoreland sought to portray the year 1967 as a triumphant one during which he was winning the war and the command in history for that year 1967 was characterized by accelerating efforts and growing success in all phases of the endeavors. that was not though how he or his performance were seen by of the spirit general bruce palmer referred to the earlier serving as deputy command army vietnam and when the general abrams a right to be the deputy to westmoreland and me of that year, general palmer told him that he really had basic disagreements on how it was organized and how we were doing it. leader general palmer and elaborate on those views in an interview with journalist mark

perry and said palmer, it was just a mess. we were losing. and trying to put it together it just wasn't working. there wasn't anything there was working. in the late summer of 1967 the ambassador ellsworth bunker submitted this assessment. we still have a long way to go. much of the country is still in d.c. hands. the enemy can shell out pieces and commit acts of terrorism. the b.c. unit still large skillet tax most of the populace has still not actively committed itself to the government and adc infrastructure still exists craughwell the country. that is what westmoreland had to show for three years in the command forces. by the end of 1967 remembered nicholas, a grandmother siege extending on the white house. finally even the general architect of the search and

destroy concept and approach to the war add me to the that it was a losing concept of operations. we ended up, he said, after it was over with no operational plan that had the slightest chance of ending the war favorably. in the face of this united opposition to his way of the war, westmoreland maintained then and later that the north vietnamese, the enemy in 1967 were in a position of weakness. this is the saddest result of all of many years of research on these matters. there were many instances including and especially concerning matters in vietnam where westmoreland had been willing to shave or misremember or deny the record when his perceived interests were at rest. one episode involving his lack of confidence in the marine

leadership is both illustrative and revealing. shortly before the cut offensive began in january, 1968, westmoreland decided to send his deputy north to the region to establish the tactical headquarters that he designated not to be forward. from there, general abrams was to control the operations of all u.s. forces in the area including those of the marine corps and of course the army. westmoreland's chief intelligence officer philip davidson had returned to a visit to qassam, the remote post by the marines and briefed westmoreland on the situation. the description of the unprotected in solutions and the general lack of preparation to withstand heavy concentrations of artillery and she said an agitated general westmoreland. finally he turned to his deputy and said something to the effect

that he had lost confidence in the marine general ability to handle the increasingly threatening situation. his response was to set up and send a brahms up to take demand. the marine reaction was predictable. one commander called this the most unpardonable thing that saigon did and said that the marines viewed it with shock and astonishment. westmoreland soon held a press conference in which he denied that any loss of confidence of the marine leadership had been his reason for placing the new headquarters over them. westmoreland also a marine general said there had been extensive background here in saigon the various news bureau chiefs to point out that established to read no stigma whatsoever with respect to the marines that was a normal military practice and that it was only temporary.

unfortunately, only the temporary was true. the averted miles were false as evidenced only by general david esen's eyewitness account, but also by the lengthy and anguished cable westmoreland had sent contemporaneously to the general wheeler, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. as you perhaps appreciate, he began, the military professionalism of the marines fall short of the standards that should be demanded by our armed forces. indeed, they are brave, but their standards, tactics and lack of command supervision throughout the ranks requires improvement in the national interest. and there was more. i would be less than frank come added westmoreland, if i did not say that i feel somewhat insecure with the situation at the province in view of my knowledge of their shortcomings without question many lives would be saved if they think their tactical professionalism

were enhanced. after the war, when the marines were writing their history of the conflict, they sent a draft to the 1968 volume to westmoreland for comment. he marked it up so extensively and took issue with so many of the judgments rendered that it was invited to discuss the whole matter in person. he accepted, and in the session with a number of marine corps historians, again, insisted with regard to establishment of ford that that particular action had not a damn thing to do with my confidence in general cushman or the marines coming off a damn thing. this was not only false, but getting the existing paper trail reckless in the extreme. westmoreland racked up a lengthy record of the false, misleading and inaccurate statements or commissions ranging from the enemy order of the battle to the

troup request from the situation in vietnam to the closure of the qassam base and from the battles to the prediction of the early end of the war to the light at the end of the tunnel. some of these matters were heady and others for a crucial the importance, but they were alike in one respect when westmoreland saw his personal interest at stake, he did not hesitate to conceal or abandon the truth. the indigenous orie, 1968, the enemy tet offensive began westmoreland's long-term was near an end. newsweek magazine described a devastating measure of how far he had fallen. in november, they said, when he was conjuring up the light at the end of the tunnel he was affectionately called, but by last week he was general westmoreland and most official and unofficial briefings. the tet resurgence of the enemy

forces led many to conclude that in his optimistic forecast westmoreland had either not known what he was talking about war had not leveled with the american people. it was hard to know which was the more devastating criticism. what was clear, however, is with his purchase of the conduct of the war, speed westmoreland squandered the four years of support for the war buy much of the american people, the congress, and even the media. for that for years westmoreland served as the army chief of staff, the army of the day struggling with many problems, some the result of the ongoing war of the vietnam and others more soluble in origin. these included in discipline, widespread abuse, racial disharmony, budgetary shortfalls and the necessity to prepare