time we were away from our church eight months during the renovation, but we had many members who did not come back. some did not come back because they were afraid. they thought it would happen again or something new would happen. some did not come back just because they thought the church would continue to have mass meetings and so forth. i would venture to say we probably have half of the conservation return after the renovation. .. >> we became a little more

fearful. we had heard these bombs going off for years, but all of a sudden it was very real because we had lost four of our friends. i struggled with it tremendously because i was trying to understand as a child, a 14-year-old, trying to understand what could make this situation right. if this was all about the color of your skin, what could make it right? what, after all, were we supposed to do about that? we understand that we can't change the parents to whom we're born, our gender, our color. so what were we supposed to do differently? that's what i kept trying to figure out. and it became just a very troubling thought or obsession that i carried around, and i didn't understand. and six months after they bombed this church, they bombed a house across the street from where i

was growing up. so with that second bomb i became convinced, i can tell you i was afraid most of the time wherever i was, wherever i was traveling when i went off to school. i was just convinced that sooner or later i was going to die from one of the bombs that was exploding in birmingham. so i found myself for many years after that, probably about 20 years, suffering from depression at a time when we didn't call it depression. but it took a long time to sort through the things that had happened here in birmingham and to understand them and to put them in perspective. what made me decide to write the book was just the resurgence of mean-spiritedness that i began to see. i really felt that america had reached a crossroad many years after the bombing of the church. i really felt that america had looked back and had looked at all of the mistakes we had made in our country and that they were committed to moving forward

in a positive way for all of its citizens. and when i began to realize and to see things that were contradictory to that, i decided that perhaps we had forgotten many of the lessons that we had learned during the '60s. in many cases we hadn't taught those lessons, but in many cases we had forgotten. so i decided i would go back and recapture the memories of a 14-year-old from the bombing of the church. >> author robert morgan appeared at the texas book festival in austin to talk about his book, "lions of the west." this is about 45 minutes. >> hello? welcome. today -- i'm paul hutton from the university of new mexico, the executive director of western writers of america, and today i'll be talking with robert morgan, distinguished

author.ng and robert, of course, is knownf widely for his poetry and his,i and his fiction, and he is also now known widely as a historiann he's come over into that world as well. he's best known, probably, for o his novel "gap creek," which is, was a selection of the oprah book club. a and robert tells me he's a warm personal friend of oprah's. [laughter] he certainly loves her a lot now, especially after the success of "gap creek" whicher although it was picked up by the oprah book club just shows her discernment because it is the author always who is responsible for the quality of his work. he entered the history world when he did his biography ofl daniel boone which was a national bestseller, went through five printings in cloth, seven more and still going in paper, published bilal gone kin

books. books. his current book and one will be discussing today is called "lions of the west," which is a history of the period that we know as manifest destiny. the great period of expansion where america fulfill its continent of destiny and became the nation that we know today. but, of course, at a price that makes some people a little and easy when they think about how we achieved that greatness. so, we are just going to have a conversation for about 30 minutes and then we will open it up and have you folks ask questions, if you would like to. first, we want to thank the texas book festival for having us here. we want to thank all the volunteers and all the people who work so hard to make this a premier event in the united states, and a premier event for people who love books and work in the world of books. my first question is, is one

that always intrigues me. i love dedications to books. your book is dedicated to mrs. elizabeth rogers who taught you american history. what's the back story? >> she was my 11th grade history teacher. she was a wonderful teacher. she is still a life. she is 92, still living in western north carolina, but she grew up in upstate new york where i live now. interesting. she came south to live and i moved up there, almost exactly where she grew up. but she was one of the people who really inspired me to love history, to read history, to think about it. and it seemed appropriate when i publish this book did dedicate it to her. >> i should've mentioned that robert teaches at cornell. he has become a college professor but evidently that hasn't ruined him as a writer. it's always dangerous.

your previous book was on daniel boone, a great favorite of mine, and the book is wonderful. you don't include daniel boone and lines of the west but, of course, you've all ready done, but his spirit is all through "lions of the west," and references are made to him. i've often thought of daniel boone as a founding father keyes a founding father of the american west. and while washington and jefferson and frankel of the founding fathers of our eastern democracy, it's daniel boone who takes it west of the mountains and opens up everything that you write about in "lions of the west." would you agree with that? >> as it turns out, yes, boone had enormous influence on the future of the country because of that. he opened up kentucky. and as i say in the book, kentucky was the key, once you why a settlement in kentucky, it's inevitable you have settlements in ohio, indiana, and for the west.

so he is indeed the father of the country, this country expanding to the west that jefferson had dreamed of it and oddly enough, boone new jefferson because boone was in the virginia legislature when jefferson was the governor. boom was the courier between jefferson and george rogers clark when jefferson was begging for fossils from the west, any sort of plants, animals, curiosities, anything that would inform jefferson about what was there across the mountains. he wanted to know everything about that world, and he wanted to possess it. [inaudible] >> is this better? thank you. indeed, one of the parts in your book i just absolutely loved was the discussion of jefferson.

constantly writing george rogers clark, you know, who is up to his neck in chinese and british, you know, fighting tooth and nail to hold onto the old northwest. and it's like clark, you've got to give me some mastodon bones. i've heard they're out there on the kentucky river. and you just, but pack them really carefully. i just can't imagine that. these people are hanging on by the fingernails and jefferson once those bones. >> oh, the world is changing. the last year, to use of the american revolution, and he's thinking about those health and bones, those mammoth bones. he wants to know what animals are out there, what is the body of the west. he wants to know about the rivers, he wants to know about the commercial potential. while almost almost all the other founding fathers i think at the college on the eastern seaboard, jefferson is already dreaming of his empire for liberty that will go all the way

maybe to the mississippi, maybe up the missouri, even to those great harbors on the pacific, san diego, monterey and san francisco. he's dreaming of the kind of huge diverse country that would actually come into being, too many of these contenders are thinking primary of a smaller english country there on the atlantic coast. >> i think that's my favorite jefferson quote, it's jefferson like lincoln, pretty tough to pick your favorite quote. but an empire for liberty, the way he viewed the west and he talked about it. when he talked that way he meant that the idea of liberties was going to need space to grow. and he knew that millions and millions of people would be coming to enjoy the fruits of liberty and you want to provide them with the space to enjoy it.

and also to proselytize it and spread it all around the world. there's a reason he is on mount rushmore. and i just they can empire for liberty says it all. and he's right. at this critical time in history he really has vision. >> he has the vision of the future that would come into being. this book, researching this book was a bit of an education for me. i thought i knew things about jefferson, but reading his letters, reading about him, i found all kinds of interesting facts. i did know before. i did know he was the tallest of the founding fathers. he was at least an inch taller than washington. he perhaps was 63 4, and some historians have said he stood tall on the heights of monticello with his head in the clouds. and that was true although at times, although james madison had a marvelous ability to bring him back to reality. it's interesting to read the

correspondence. jettisoned the great dreamer, slight imagination about this great empire of the liberty, madison, the great legal thinker. it was a wonderful relation between them. and i think they encouraged each other. jefferson, great legal mind also, madison probably the greatest legal mind. jefferson was a welshman. he loved singing. he played the fiddle at monticello. and the inspiration for this book, following the blue book, was to write about expansion to the west after boone, after the settlement of kentucky. my publisher invited me down to new york to talk about a future book. we talked about a biography of crockett, a biography of carson, sam houston. we decided there's been a lot of those that wasn't may be the perfect idea. and i said to my publisher and

my editor, you know, the founding father who was most concerned about expanding the country west, learning about it, learning about the mountains, the rivers, the indians, the indian customs, languages, was jefferson. and a man who acquired the west, guadalupe in mexico city, 1847-48 was jefferson's grandson in law. and my publisher said, oh, it's all in the family. so we decided on a book with that beginning, and then to do, length biographies of jackson houston, crockett, james k. polk, winfield scott, kit carson and nicholas interests. as the story unfolds and i decided to end with the nemesis

of these people, the person who oppose most vigorously the expansion into the southwest, john quincy adams, who was not against expansion. he just didn't want to expand slavery into the southwest. he wanted to take all of canada up to 5440. that was a very interesting part of the story, too. >> all of your characters are very inquisitive which i think is an american trait. and since jefferson place his hands upon it, i guess it's all right. but certainly other people claim all of his territory that your heroes are moving into, and there are consequences for the actions that are taken, consequences of course that we live with today. you're very familiar with here in texas. certainly we are in new mexico. but it's all set in motion during this period of so-called manifest destiny.

>> i began this war with a jefferson wanted to george rogers clark in 1781, then continue it with his commission to andrea michaud, 1793, french botanist asking him to explore the mississippi valley, and maybe the missouri and even what is beyond that. nobody knew quite what was beyond that. they knew it was spanish territory. and then, of course, jefferson's quest for the west culminates with purchase of louisiana, 1803, and a strict letter of commission to meriwether lewis june 20, 1803, telling him what he wants to know about the west which is basically everything. i did not know to start this project that the maximum government or the spanish, and mexico sent an army of to cut off lewis and clark, to not let them get to the west.

and it was things like that that persuaded me to do this study i had to study mexican history and tell something about the mexican side of the story, because i came to see it was a part of our story. so i had the pleasure of spending about a year reading mexican historians and mexican history to tell this story. and i'm awfully glad i did because i learned a lot i did not know about the republic south of the border, and a very complicated relationship between the united states and the republic of mexico. >> the intellectual here of the book is thomas jefferson, but the one who was stabbed in a two fisted way in which america stops across the continent and gave us the blessings of liberty and economic growth that we have now was and to jackson.

and it's imminent to me that you're not quite as fond of jackson as you are of jefferson. you refer to him as the bully in the same of westward expansion, sort of the embodiment of the american spirit, both its power and its roughness. >> well, i actually do admire jackson quite a bit. he's one of our greatest leaders, one of our greatest military heroes and was one of our greatest presidents, but he's a complicated man. and interviewer said, the subtitle of your book is "heroes and villains of the westward expansion." which are the heroes and which are the villains? and i said all of them. they are all heroes in some ways and most of them are built. not a johnny appleseed. he's the exception. he is the same, pure and simple. but jackson is a perfect example of somebody who is both a saint and a bully, depending on the

situation. i say jackson to some extent had a bad wrist and sometime. as an indian killer and a person renewed the cherokees and others. he did those things. he believed it was the only way to prevent their extermination in peace. and i believe he really did believe that. but it is also true he wanted their land for white settlement. and he could be brutal. he could be a bully. he could be violent. he thought many duels. but to the people who knew him, he was a saintly person. he was very protective of people, and in some ways he is almost the arc upon clock of american of that. nicholas tressed said andrew jackson have more of a woman in his nature and any man he had ever met, that he was very, very kind, sympathetic, activity

people. he was bighearted. he was generous. he did not hate indians. he like indians. he adopted to indians. as his sons to raise as his sons. but he would not let indian nation stand in the way of white settlement and the westward expansion. now, that's the great paradox about andrew jackson. if he liked you, nobody could be kinder. if you stood in his way on something, you are in deep trouble. intime may be the most popular president we've ever had, and perhaps even the most popular military leader after washington. he had enormous prestige in his lifetime. that's how crockett got in trouble. he started opposing the jacksonians and it cost him his seat in congress and his life at the alamo basically. crockett was at the alamo as opposed to being further east,

because houston was a protége of andrew jackson, and the political rivalry from the state of folic crockett and houston here to texas. but i feel divided with great admiration, and, obviously, some great reservation about figures like andrew jackson. >> certainly jackson was i believe our last president to personally shoot other people in duels. i mean, which i think in political discourse and debate would probably make you cause when you argued with him when you knew this back story on old hickory. well, if jackson of course is kind of the saintly bully, the person who is a saint is john chapman. i very much enjoyed your chapter on johnny appleseed was sort of a disney character i think in our minds, a character of folklore. is there really was a real john shadegg. he really did bring apple to the

west. i love the way, you're a poet of course, and a novelist, and i love the way you talk about the apple and its metaphorical power and those the real power of johnny appleseed. >> and for bringing civilization to north america. i had to write about john chapman because most people think he was a creation of all -- walt disney are kind of a cartoon figure. a very real person, john chapman was born in massachusetts in 1774. his father was a minuteman in the revolution, served with washington at long island. the family grew orchard. going all the way back to england. he went into the western force in pennsylvania as a young man and continued across the ohio into ohio, and begin to plant apple trees with seeds.

now, even then those orchard us grafted trees. if you planted siege of a one in six chance of getting a true apple. that is, you get all kinds of hydrogen things. at the house okay for the frontier because he was playing them for the the people following them. they preferred apple brandy to moonshine in those days. suzette real popular figure. he became very rich in land, though we lived like a popper. and this is a being that many people do not know about john chapman. the second half of his life was spent not only planting apple trees and herbs, and exchanging those with the settlers, but preaching mysticism and distributing tracts of swedenborg's writing. he was a visionary. he would talk to settlers about

angels, talking to angels, about how the spiritual world and the heaven was here, if you could just see it. the indians thought he was a holy fool, and i think a lot of the settlers did. i think he's the kind of american that we see in a row and emerson and emily dickinson later. somebody living in harmony with nature sees nature, nature is the language of the soul. nature is the language of god. you read nature denote the design world. and i just could not resist writing about john chapman in this book spent another natural man from the same period is of course someone who was warm to the hearts of all taxes, and that is davy crockett. you see chapman as the saint of the westward expansion, but you see crockett as the martyr of the westward expansion but i'm of course, i can barely get past

big indicator. chapman was a tinpot on his head. crockett was a dead animal on his head. i don't know what this is about martyrs and saints, that crockett certainly is a fabulous character for what you are doing for the idea of westward expansion. >> well, crockett with a coonskin cap when he was campaigning. when he was appearing as the persona of davy crockett that he had created. i understand that most fancy dress like everybody else. it again his costume. they said he was wearing it when he left memphis coming to texas. but i found crockett a martyr almost from the beginning. if you read his autobiography and his stories, it's a story of failed your. and one of the ways he won votes for people with not only through his humor, he was a great comedian, humorist, he wrote the play that gave my book the

title, "lions of the west," about colonel name water -- half alligator and have force. the beginning of that kind of frontier humor. but if you read his autobiography from the very beginning it's about his failures, his sufferings, all the difficulty he had. it's as though he's almost creating the persona of the martyr. and, of course, the greatest thing he ever did was to die at the alamo, because that brought the sympathy of the world to texas' independence. that story of the mexicans killing all those people and telling crockett and the others, really changed the attitude of the world toward texas' independence spent but it's especially crockett and it's the idea of this living symbol of

western liberty and freedom. i mean, the struggles for the poor and the disenfranchisement and the dispossessed in defense of the indians. and then for him to die at the hands of this megalomaniac dictator, just the worst sort out, it there's a built in the story, although you do say some nice things about and anna, but still he is really one bad character. crockett certainly, certainly then by his death sets in motion everything that happens afterward i thing. spinning up silly. the death of crockett and a great victory changed the course of history. not only american history but world history really. leading up to the mexican war which change the position of the united states on the world stage and led to the acquisition of california and modern american as we know it. santa anna is a megalomaniac. he probably was insane, at least at times.

but he had such charm that after he was thrown out of office he was reelected president of mexico 10 more times. i mean, can you think of anybody like antonio lopez santa anna? i can. he could persuade anybody of anything. interviewed by the great diplomat after he lost the battle. of course, in houston showed what a great statesman he had become by protecting him, keeping them alive. this is one of my favorite stories to watch sam houston grow as a leader from a kind of bully and to do list and a drunk to the great leader of the texas army, and then the state of texas. but he sent santa anna up to washington. he was interviewed, and he said,

mexico is not ready for democracy. it will not be ready for democracy for 100 years. but there's no reason that an authoritarian government can't do much to establish the welfare, prosperity and liberty of a country. he could talk his way out of anything. he was really a strong leader. i don't think we have anyone quite like him certainly in north america. >> the man who fills the dream of jefferson and jackson, and brings someone who is our most underrated president and her most successful president. i always feel that james k. polk makes the american people an easy. he does all the dirty work for us that has made everything possible for us. yet we don't, you know, we don't

erect monuments to. we can barely put them on the stand. it just makes us uncomfortable. and he suffered spent there are monuments to him in nashville. a few years ago and i was at the rockefeller study center in bellagio, italy, talking to german historians. and one of them said you americans know nothing about your history. you don't realize your greatest president is james k. polk. and i said really? and he said oh, yeah, he took you to the symphony. poke is unique in american history. the only president who did everything he promised to do. he said i will never run again, one term. i will in the high tariff. i will establish a stable banking system. i will acquire oregon, and i will acquire california. and by the time he stepped down he had done all those things.

houston said polk is a victim of the use of water as a beverage. he was a workaholic. he worked around the clock. he died a few months after leaving office, but he changed this nation significantly. spent if only polk had met johnny appleseed he could have got some appejak a ..onderful concept in your book, before we open up for questions come and we've got to mention kit carson of course and winfield scott as well but especially kit carson. agenda would've a context in your book about how the westward expansion, while the powerful men and set some forces, political and diplomatic, in motion it really was a people's movement and it was only possible for pope in houston and jackson and crockett, then the

military leaders who came after to achieve what they did because the people have occupied the west ahead of the government, and in the government had to follow them. this is, seems to essentially america, the people lead. >> if the thousand, tens of thousands of unnamed people who came to kentucky, tennessee, texas, oregon, california, who made it possible. we write about the great leaders, but the leaders primarily followed the masses of people going to the free land, going where they thought their futures were best. when it comes to carson, i did the most outrageous thing when i was writing about carson. i compared him to thomas jefferson. and i compared him as scientists and essentially. jefferson wanted to know everything about the west. he wanted to know the geography,

the indians, the religion of the indians, their marriage customs. he wanted to know the languages. he wanted to know the rivers. he wanted to know the soil, the climate. kit carson was illiterate, but he learned all those things and he had a photographic mind. he could remember every place he had ever seen. he knew many indian languages. he knew canadian french, he knew spanish. he was fluent in those languages. and my favorite understatement in american history is from 1842, fremont is going up the missouri river in a steamboat to mount the oregon trail and he meets kit carson and he says, i need a guide to take me to the rocky mountains. and carson, who was a very humble man, not at all pretentious, said i spent some time in amounts. i think i can take you where ever you want to go. they are was born the great partnership, the pathfinder with a real pathfinder is kit carson and thomas broken hand

fitzpatrick. those are the people who took fremont into the rockies and into the sierras. >> carson is very much the sort, the physical instrument that finally fulfills jeffersons empire for liberty, is in the? >> absolutely. .. >> i mean, really. >> it's a small world. [laughter] >> yes, it was a small world. wave got to -- we've got to mention nicholas tryst who's really a forgotten character from history.

i've always been upset with him for not taking baja. if you're going to steal half of somebody's country, don't give up any beachfront property. [laughter] you're doing it anyway, take everything that's good. but nevertheless, and i wanted canada too, i still do. they're very nice up there. [laughter] but tryst is sort of bemoaned in history. he's condemned in the history because he didn't get enough, and yet he's a great peacemaker, and he makes a peace and be gets that war over with brilliantly. >> he's one of our greatest diplomats, he's almost unknown to americans. he was the grandson inform -- grandson-in-law to thomas jefferson. he was sent by polk and buchanan down to new jersey to negotiate a peace sort of behind the back of winfield scott. this is a very strange story, how he was supposed to negotiate a peace without the great general cooperating.

but unbelievably, miraculously he brought it off. he was fluent in spanish, the mexicans liked him a great deal, and eventually -- it is a complicated story -- he got them to sign the treaty at the virgin of guadalupe in 1848 ceding everything west of texas; new jersey, california, nevada, utah, half of colorado and a chunk of wyoming for $15 million. now, that is a real estate deal. it helps if you have wynnfield scott occupying -- winfield scott occupying mexico city nearby. but he did this after he was fired by james k. polk who thought he had become a whig and a friend of whitfield scott. he did it as a private citizen. but it was such a great treaty that they ratified it anyway. he lived the rest of his life in

poverty and obscurity. i found him a truly fascinating man. >> it says everything about the eerd. and the senate of the time, you think our politicians are bad today, boy, back in the day they almost didn't ratify the treaty because they didn't think they needed to pay $15 million to anybody for that territory because they had stole it fair and square. if you have any questions, why don't you come up and line up now. i'll ask mr. morgan a final question about polk is the grand schemer. he really is remarkable the way he sort of tricked people into, um, into war. >> i call him a poker or player. he really knew how to bluff his way in the world. >> after questions we will, we will exit immediately, and we will be down in the book-signing tent where you can talk more to robert morgan about his book, "lions of the west." yes, ma'am. >> i have some rapidfire questions. what is the cut-off date for your coverage of "lions of the

west"? is it 1850, 1860? who would you consider the most obscure lion of the west? is there someone you wanted to include but your editor would not allow? did you consider captains in terms of oceanic development? and lastly -- oh, is there any lioness of the west? [laughter] >> i am very glad you asked that question. because i wrote three chapters, one on -- [inaudible] one on narcissa whitman, the missionary who was murdered by indians in oregon, and one on susan mcgothan who as a bride came down the santa fe trial. i really got into research on them thinking of lionesses of the west. my publisher said the book is too big, and we simply cannot include those. and what could i say? that -- they cut them out. yeah. at the end, and i'm threatening

to write another book called lionesses of the west. [applause] >> well, there you go, you've got your audience ready. those pesky publishers, they're always doing that. >> uh-huh. >> yes, sir. >> you mentioned manifest destiny, and i just would maybe ask you to expound a bit on that. it seems to me that, that that is an uncomfortable thing for americans today to deal with. the, you know, the religious underpinnings of that, the, i guess just the audacious entitlement, um, that really, it seems to me s a foundation of our country. at least its geographic shape and breadth. and if you could just, you know, go into that a little bit and expound on that. thank you. >> with well, you're absolutely

right, it is a, it is a very complicated and vexing story. as i say right at the very beginning, there are heros and there are villains. and i think it's the job of a historian to try to see things as they were seen at the time as well as the way, in the way that we view them. and to tell people, our contemporaries, our young people, what this history was all about. i have a page where i talk about the hunger, the greed, the need that poor whites had at the end of the 18th century who had never owned anything, that never had been allowed to hunt, they had never had firearms, they came as indentured servants. they had been kicked out of scotland, they'd been kicked out of ireland, out of wales, and suddenly here was this vast continent of forest, endless game, endless furs, and it was

there. only thing standing in their way was indians. and one of the ways they solved this problem was living with the indians, intermarrying with them, trading with them, fighting with them, and to know this story you have to know their story and the story of the indians and the way these two people came, in many ways, to mirror each other, learn from each other, kill each other at times. but it's a double, triple story. it's, it's full of pain, it's shameful at times, and at other times it is wonderful. people achieving this new democratic country. you've got to see it, the whole elephant, i say. you can't just look at one piece of it. and it's important to understand who we are, to know this many be-layered -- many-layered and

complicated story. most of my students know so little of american history. they don't know when the mexican war was. they don't know what the mexican war was about. and it's the job of historians and teachers to bring this alive for a contemporary audience. >> yes, ma'am. >> sorry. oh, okay. um, well, i guess my question -- it's not really a question so much as i wonder, the reason i was studying history and people who lived during that time, i just wonder what it was that was so inspiring and so, that drove them to do all thisment i feel like we've lost something, and i don't know -- obviously, we can't live in the world the same way that they did, but what can we do now, and how can we live

our lives that recaptures that sense of destiny and possibility and, just -- obviously, we could get specific. there's -- [inaudible] but what do we do now? >> that's a great question, yeah. >> i believe that the great interest in the founding fathers in the revolutionary war period and now this period of the war of 1812 and after comes partly from if our sense of confusion at the moment. i believe that we americans really wonder what we are up to, what is the country about. and we go back to these roots, to this story to try to reconnect and figure out what was best about the country and what was worst. what is it all about? what were the ideas? what were the ideals of jefferson? what was it that jefferson and hamilton cared so much about that they were practically getting in fistfights at cabinet meetings in washington? what did winfield who the care

so much about? the great general who conquered mexico was against the mexican war. that's the kind of paradoxes you have. it's like robert e. lee disapugh pooed of slavery, and he was the great defender of it. history was made up of these paradoxes, and to understand how we got where we are now, we have to know something about these contradictory events and these very complex people. and i think that will help us move forward to know that. >> to come back from the sublime to the more narrow since we have a minute, i'll ask a question. of course, i spend my life just brooding over how exactlyday i have correct died -- davy crockett died, and i notice that in your book you, of course, cite bill droneman's book and his questioning of the diary which i believe is gospel. but nevertheless, you sort of dodge the issue, i think, and i think beautifully, by saying that there is a greater meaning

to his death. and it really kind of relates to the question you just answered about what correct meant to -- crockett meant to texas and the rest of the country, if shot the world. -- if not the world. >> yeah. my opinion is we will never know exactly how david crockett died at the alamo, whether he was butchered with swords at the order of santana as the diary says. i don't know. so many scholars have suggested those, those entries in the diary were put in later, it was interpreted later. i really don't know the answer to that. but i don't think it makes that much difference because his importance is as a figure who died for the cause of liberty, not just in texas, but really for the country. for the future. and that's why we remember him.

he was also a very funny man and a great bear hunter and much better educated than he pretended to be. it was a part of his, his persona, you know, to come across as this fellow who hardly could read and write. he was a very smart man, in my opinion. he was a victim of the whigs. they took him into be politics -- into politics out of his depth to some extent. but i see these people including houston as really major figures. i think sam houston is one of the greatest americans, and part of the greatness of his story is to watch his growth as a human being and as a military leader and as a statesman throughout his life. remember, his opposition to secession and then texas, he was thrown out of the governorship. he said, you will lose. was he right? [laughter] he was a very smart guy. >> the idea of manifest destiny,

the very idea that jefferson triumphed, crockett died for, polk made a reality really goes back, i think, to the puritan fathers and to the very idea of this city up on a hill. and it's always been interesting to me as a scholar in the late 20th century and now the 21st century to see how it's so roundly condemned by a population that has merrily gone forth throughout the 20th century and continue to this very day in the 21st to continue exactly that policy. i mean, there is a very clear idea of american exceptionalism. it comes across in your week, and it comes across, i think, in the rhetoric of our political and social discourse, especially in election years. >> and yet you have to feel sorry for mexico losing the war, losing half their territory, and the very month -- january -- 1848 nicholas tryst is putting the final touches on the treaty

of guadalupe, a foreman upon the american river where sacramento is now looks into a mill race, picks up some shiny pebbles, goes back to the bunk house and says, boys, i think i've found a gold mine. perhaps the greatest discovery of gold in history, had been there under the nose of the mexicans and the spanish and the indians for all those years. >> and the rest, as they say, is history. [laughter] robert morgan will be signing books -- [applause] [applause] [applause] >> for more information on this and other 2012 -- 2011 book festival attendance, visit texas book festival dot or. >> all eight of your books abou. liberals, is that fair to say? >> yes.to

and mean, the first book was ona the grounds for impeachment of bill clinton, the rest are about liberals. various actually, the column ," how to talk to a liberal if you must, n that covers everythingou under the everyth sun. sun >> slender, treason, got list and a guilty, demonic. afraid of words. >> some titles. thos i was thinking of calling thissb book legion. [l my name is legion. a small wedge of christians with on december those socks about. yes. i want people to work my butt.ss you learn things. give is usually because it annoys liberals. >> if democrats had any brains

there would be republicans, which could be referred to as the best of ann coulter.if >> more of a quotation book. br, >> here is one ," environmentalists energy plan ie the repudiation of america and christian destiny, which is hot: showers, and -- steven in south jordan utah, you're on in-depth. >> i would like to thank the astrologer have done. some comments about religion, al conservative and liberals. com there are principles,ion beeen e conservative principles that lir have are conducted, the social cost per joe, and economict well-being of nations. these came from god himself. we they formed a foundation ofprin civilized society. the ten commandments.ociety, the last 50 years, the church oo

the ten commandments, the ten ls incoming intrudes. last 50 meeting, go back to lyndon intot johnson and free society. honor thy father and mother. honor thy mother and bigurned government to mendicancy would that has done. a lot of families, and have youe ever read some the keynotead address written by obama? >> note : i think you need to read my book godless for thisbo, point. it is not an inconvenient truth. odless," no. tt is breaking each one of theso ten commandments one by 11. pla the shall not murder, the most one important issue to the democratic party, yes, that's right to abortion. sticking a fork in the head of ? the babies sleeping peacefullyyh in theatir mothers' wombs. entire tax policies said generate class envy and steal money killer redistributetheir

wealth. certainly put no gone before med they put every got before the utal gut.certnly p i don't think their is a living liberals who would not give uphe his eternal soul to attend theis carter vanity parity of vanity fair party. published in new york times. the worst revivalists is sportss more than sport, it is the religion of the left. fo their religion is breaking each of the ten commandments one byk one. >> and from godless you write an by orwellian dishonesty abouthost:m abortion begins with less of a refusal to use the word abortion . these pro-choice is treat abortion the way muslim street mohammad. it is so sacred it must not bete mentioned. the only other practice that was both defended and unspeakable ia aserica like this was slavery. w >> a half. that is true. uns interestingly, even in places where slavery was accepted, and,

it wasn't in many parts of the e world, people would not let their children play with slave traders the way i imagine peopld would not today that their kidsw et's one thing to say, i'm l pro-choice. it's a different thing to lete o your kid play with its have a local abortion is, of which there are not very many. it is a repellent practice, bute it is peculiar that they elevate this and pretend it is aractic constitutional right, and yet we can't use the t word.te thisnd you don't have gun rights groupt refusing to use the word gun.yoa it shows you what a hideousrighs thing it is and what a hideous thing they know it is. itis and ♪ hideo why does and obama just take kni this same speech and have them run it every>> night? near berlin wisconsin. you're on. it >> good afternoon. wonderful to talk to you.: okay. finished reading your book.i ju >> thank you.reading yr >> basically i am here from the

home of stalker, paul ryan, andf also, scant he'll be. walk just read your book.lso as people why we are celebratind it.ayust readour so we had a lot of fun witheople that, but one of my main question is, i do watch all ofwa this back-and-forth, so many bee times that if we would justrth follow our constitution we would not be in this mess.ould one of the main thing is, the article one, all the powers of n benefiting congress.on. yo there are not vested in this p paragraph. then investigated. are not although we going to do to bring that back and make peopleed. understand to give up our backma for we, the people --le >> i'm so glad the u.s.the no. this is a very important point.o democratic policies are sohis unpopular the democrats of had to stopt. promoting themselves.

th some molesting and murdering criminals, for example. know, instead they just nominate mo judges and then the judges are y asry moderate, and they get upg to the supreme court, and is and suddenly discover, look, this 2e pu 00 year-old document, we foundsl one. there is a right to gay marriage and abortion, and we must release 306,000 criminals from the california prisons.ge eight weeks of the united statet supreme court ruling. now they get the courts to do their dirty workfo for them and tell us it is a constitutional t right. i think the only way to rain ahis and, obviously we have the method that we have been trying mer the last 40 years, tryingve for a quarter-century to elect r public presence come way for vacancies on the supreme court to i get into the supreme courtr nominees who does not cour hallucinate when they think of t the constitution.sn't that did not work out so well. we had three republican appointees, sandra day o'connor,

republic justice kennedy who all voted tv uphold the heart of roe v wade, not the precise holding. t as scalia said, i don't know how that followed president, but in any event i think what we needaa ecede is get five of our supreme court justices, this is one of my plans, just for laughs, afivt conservative judicial activism and can get the rights equivalent to those being ativid listed above liberal justices so that we will suddenly have a right to a flat tax, a right tor own a rocket-propelled grenade. free champagne for blondes, allt kinds of fantastic ride second think of.fo blond the to the withholding taxffants unconstitutional. can th and then are justices can admit it was all a joke because liberals can understand how it n

is until it is done to them. the alternative plan to mike isr a much more quickly, we need a r conservative republican executive to say their response to make things as a supreme onc court ruling. for example saw said , someng, rulings under president bush. go i wish she had just said thank,i you for your opinion, the constitution makes it a commander in cmehief. i am not giving special as additional rights to terrorists grab of a battlefield. banks, supports.than, suprem ♪ -- >> said tweet and then in thendn melt. stt then she sell a dvd of that? wae that is the tweet. dd of you know, tim johnson. ms. coulter lays it on the line th and often disagrees in her word. , stupid and the mod. disree >> no.ds, stup and misguided. are mostly at think it is the worshiping of false idols,

however. the at think it is this desire to b. considered cool and in and notis have to think of anything. an >> to public appearances are anu avalanche of smiles, as serious conservative who wants to be of taken seriously the mother first thing they have to dseo is to b distance themselves from lowfiry lights of glen beckham rush limbaugh, grover norquist, and u in coulter.limbaugh grove >> i don't of the other guys,er. but i would say none of all for me. i mean, this is like what i sait about joe mccarthy, what's yourh point.hat i what you disagreeing to what ist the small hyword?ha a thing that was not all sweetness and nice. was this is how liberals avoid talking about the t issues. avod slander.heme of racist, sexist, ugly, mean, don't listen to this person,hey don't read this person, danger, raci

danger.xist, well, if you could argue one our ideas, you do so, if you'reth despicable ensnarling ago the and iof some minivans. >> intriguing did you also wrofe about how you cannot attackns. certain people such as casey shields' mother. >> yes. -- >> was that in treason or guilty? >> was the guilty? >> said think so. >> i remember the theme. that thing that was godless. it's a liberal, how they, it is sort of the reverse of what i just said. democrats new techniques, it drives them crazy that conservatives have their own media, talk radio and the internet. fox news for you can occasionally see at conservative. so their approach is to send out sobbing in hysterical woman to make their point, and you cannot

respond. sen d.c. and to the jersey girls, joe wilson, oh, but they had relevance. you cannot respond. there are allowed to voice the entire left wing agenda on us. >> next call, jordan, lexington kentucky. hello. >> hello. such a huge, huge fan. a former president ed murray state university and former mayor -- reagan scholarship. >> he resolutions very nice to meet you. >> i had two questions for you. i am reading demonic right now,o by the way.stions. i think it is my favorite of your books.ay. i have read every one.ad read it in the eighth grade. "hh >> you're a fine american and will go far. >> but to questions. grade. number one, is