>> ami pedahzur is a professor at university of texas where he teaches government and middle eastern studies and is the author of this book, "the israeli secret services and the struggle against terrorism" he joins us at the university of texas at austin. the interview is part of the tedious college series. it's about half hour. postcode "quest for equality," the failed promise of black, brown solidarity is the name of the book. university of texas history professor, neil foley is the

author. professor foley, what was the good neighbor policy amount of it to your book? >> guest: that's a good question because in some way that affirms entire book. a good neighbor policy is genuinely consider to be the work of president franklin delano roosevelt who in his inaugural lecture as in 1933 of the united states is going to become a good neighbor in this hemisphere. now he didn't spell out exactly what that meant, but certainly everybody in latin america understood what that meant. at least if you're going to be a good neighbor, does this mean you're going to stop using dollar diplomacy and you will be setting the marines every time something happens in latin america they don't approve of and so forth and so on. the secretary of state reassure them that exactly what we mean.

we want to be partners and friends and not the colossus of the north. they basically treat latin america as its backyard. so they were skeptical at first. but gradually they learned that roosevelt meant what he said. and the tester that came in 1938 when the president of mexico, also customize nationalize the oil industry. in 1938 the national oil industry. the oil industry, standard oil of new jersey became exxon and so forth, their solution was they can't do this. we need to show these mexicans who's the boss around here. sort of the old way we did business with latin america. roosevelt explained they had every right to do that. i was part of what he meant to be a sovereign nation which you

could nationalize foreign investment. depending on to compensate to compensate them for the intake cannot give that. the mexican government came up with a formula for compensating the company is of course the oil companies rejected the offer. he went to the mexican supreme court and they said they fear off her and franklin delano roosevelt as air off her. may expect and franklin delano roosevelt to say no we are going to invade. times have changed and unchanged and fdr was not unmindful what was going on in europe but i'm with verizon a national social party, not the party and adventures of japan engage in an imperialistic wars in asia and

pacific. it rattled the saber for a while here. the last thing he needed was to make texaco potentially an enemy angry at the united states. but i don't believe that was his only reason for not shaking a big stake in mexico. he believed it was improper to put the government was doing fine as the mexican government was responsibly compensating these companies. so in prague in 1941 cup in mexico six months later declares war after the germans and two of his ships and we became belligerents. we became allies in the war against the axis powers. and so the united states under the administration of franklin roosevelt decided it was high

time to use this as an opportunity under the good neighbor policy to get on 19 american republics together to see we stand united to defend the hemisphere against japanese italian and german expression. and i am arguing in this book and in the subsequent book coming out next year that this changed the course of u.s.-mexico diplomatic relations from one of mutual suspicion to one of professional level communications from the foreign ministry in mexico in the state department president to president. many of you remember the cozy relationship that george w. bush had back before 9/11 9/11 changed all that anonymous the u.s.-mexico relationship, just that the united states had

interest particularly in latin america and middle east and so forth and so on. >> host: where does the failed promise of black brown solidarity come into your story? >> guest: fair enough. i try and give you the context for the united states in a relationship with latin america. let's go back in time and look at what the united states look like and what it was doing during world war ii. this was a time when most people thought of race in the u.s. in terms of black people only people. of the recalled the end and white folks. not many people thought much about what we know collation americans. it was relatively new since the 1980s. we said chinese, filipino, japanese and a number of other

at the craft and along the way. and we can use toward hispanic or latino either. there are cubans and puerto ricans and mexican-american. in world war ii we didn't have a lot of cubans living in miami at the time. basically after 1959. even the puerto rican diaspora was a post-world war ii to recommend a four border states, california and texas were work remains to this day. they come home from the war. african-americans, latinos and what are they just achieved?

midges defeated forces and hitler and mussolini in a war that was to protect democracy not only abroad but at home. they called it a total of the campaign codirector at home as well as abroad, meaning that if you're going to defeat airiness and, you can't come home and return to its supremacy. so you have these ethnic groups. i chose to focus on african-americans and mexican americans coming home the notion we didn't overdress colitis. you're not going to come back and go alien to me to the back of the bus back to segregated

schools and say these jobs are not for you. worry is that you are not anything that requires skill. they came back. i would argue more americanized even though their americans before they left because the american ideals of equality under the constitution. you don't see the constitution applies to white folks and black folks who are american citizens through and through and mexican americans through and through by virtue of the 14th amendment. i was born here, based here. i would not so comfortable in a country that omitted in a certain night that you had. i would think that un-american. and that's the way they were thinking. so the question i began this book with is if african-americans than mexican-americans come back after the war saying we have southern union schools, why do mexicans in texas have to do the mexican schools?

and why do blacks over the south had to go to segregated schools that are inferior and everybody knew they were inferior? you could see they are not the same kind of school. and i wondered why these two groups did not seem to want to work together to achieve similar goals. what were the issues attendant to divide them? so that was the original question i had. one of the things you learn when you think about coalitions of groups coming together, it's one thing not a common agenda. it's quite another to have a mutual understanding and trust between you. this is the basis of any solidarity is the ability to step out of your shoes and put yourself in someone else's position that even this is a major and i support you.

this is why so many say of's report because they the unaffected by the marriage act. they believe that no american citizen should have their rights curtailed because of race, nationality, creed or orientation. a similar kind of thing i'd hoped would happen pack in the 40s and teeth. >> host: was there an attempt by african-americans to work together with? >> guest: absolutely. what you find at the grassroots level that cannot argue with which the present moment african-americans and latinos were together in unions for better wages, working conditions because it's in the best interest of everybody. all employees.

but what happens if you wanted in the defense industry in world war ii and then honoring african-americans or mexican-americans? so that puts him in possession of competition. so when you hear for example today, fast forward six years later and they take our jobs. well, i don't think mexican immigrants are taking jobs a lot of people in the united states today. the that's open to debate. if you go in a time you'll see if you look at african-american history have always viewed -- often view democrats as their main competitors. now why people obviously, but

immigrants because when immigrants come over with her irish were the target in its interior european, irish were not hired in the 19th century although it is the earliest 20th century. we all know about the problem that italians had fitting into a culture. criminals and mafia and some kind of inferior europeans in the southern part of europe, the mediterranean rim, not the nordic europeans, then the regions in swedish and british and germans and so forth in the southern and eastern europeans are not as desirable as potential american citizens of immigrants. so african-americans have lived through a successive wave of immigration coming over whoever ragtime at first.

but then children are u.s.-born and may shed some of the cultural appurtenances of the whole country. oftentimes they've never even been to italy. by the third generation they say are completely assimilated. in my own case, for example, both of their grandparents were immigrants. my father's parents immigrated from ireland and my mother's parents immigrated from mexico. they were undocumented. my parents were both born in the united states is technically what they call third generation. when i go to mexico i don't think i'm home. this is my home.

and i think to get the idea of competition, african-americans have literally dealt with the fact that they witness immigrants assimilate and generation after generation into the mainstream and being accepted in the white community. so italian-americans aren't discriminated against any more than irish-americans. iran celebrates columbus day in st. patrick's day but that's not the way it was. meanwhile african-americans don't seem to be moving into the mainstream. i don't necessarily have the answers for that. toni morrison read a wonderful essay in 1993 that said on the backs of blacks. this is a noble prize-winning novelist of coors coolers are affected on the history of

african-americans. why is it that immigrants are able to assimilate into mainstream america all blacks remain the permanent alien other? that is the question that drives this book. we talk with neil foley. the university of texas about his book quest for quality, dear this is your third book? >> guest: second book. latino u.s.a. in the remaking of america. that will be coming out in 20 for team with harvard university press. >> host: who were the least past and envelopment does? >> guest: that's an interesting case. it's only now being given the attention it deserves because most americans are familiar with brown v. board of education with

very few students of law professors who are familiar with mendez versus westminster. this is a case in which gonzalez mendez and his family, where their children were denied at the way the school. >> guest: even naturalized immigrant. and they were denied entrance into the primary school. this is because they go to the mexicans call. now the kids went to the mexican school before that, but they moved. this is an interesting story. cavallo worked for a japanese farmer and his family.

in world war ii the japanese-americans and japanese were interned with the called internment camps of the basically prisons or concentration camps because it was believed all people of japanese descent, including americans for japanese origin are considered a threat to the united states. so the family was removed from their home and put in a concentration camp and man's cavallo before they left, will you take over the fire and run it and hire people to harvest the crops and so forth? he said if it will. so when he moved into his employer's home, his family was close to her the way school was in that particular westminster it was about to neighborhood school. they said no you have to send the other side of town were used to live with the mexican school

is. i wouldn't want my children to commute all the way across town to go to this other school? he didn't understand the school board had determined people of mexican origin went to a mexican school. so can follow asked what's the reason for that? he said that's the way we do it here. mexicans cut in the mexican school in anglo-americans go to the american school. when he pressed they said because mexican to language in the cubs and they need special attention. i children speak english that's not a problem. i'm sorry, messed is the it is. so i got a lawyer ensued. thank you for the heads, school boards which to pay the fee, superintendents on the board couldn't say segregated mexicans

for the same reason they segregated black people, which is because they black people were inferior they didn't want black or white people to be in the same. it's a very good reason from their point of view. being in the sam's club or its familiarity. they don't see race, class. the future there and they get older. if the parents are teaching them to be racist they think are remote people who come in shapes and sizes and orientations. but then that leaves down the road to dating and marriage. a common believe for most of the united states history until world war ii and then collapsing a lot of history here, as if white people mix their blood with black people it would be the underway civilization. they believe in what was called eugenic science, which is that

white people were superior because of the genes they had. if you mix those chains with an fear risk are particularly women, the entire civilization would collapse. many books cannot predict in the collapse would civilization as a result of intermarriage. so that was the pillar for maintaining segregated school even though nobody had to talk about it because it was so obvious that the reason you maintain them separate is racist needed to stay separate. white people were very discriminating and who they wanted to share classrooms with. and they did not want to share them with mexicans for similar reasons. but they couldn't say that. the recent pickup in is because the law says that you cannot segregate people by race except in the case of african-americans and that was good to to us with

plessy versus ferguson supreme court decision, which basically said it was constitutionally incorrect nok estates wanted to fabricate black children for white children. of course all of the southern states did all of that. in california was a little different. lots of japanese, lots of chinese, lots of mexicans and blacks in lots of ways. so they black schools as you can imagine. they also had mexican schools and an asian schools. they are segregated in different ways. the mexicans had but we are not black. we are way. so they argued was illegal to segregate them because they were members of the white race. the school board said it has nothing to do with race in fact the plaintiffs in the case also

nausea or nothing to do with race. what they were quibbling over with this language in the cab on the problem with that is what happens if you look at the way school and find a german immigrant child who can't speak a word of english. then you find a mexican-american myself in the mexican school who can't speak a word of spanish. how do you argue into the mexicans in the mexican school because of language handicap in the only language is spanish? i'm sorry, english. it gives the lie to superintendents argument to redo the mexicans a favor. in other words, it's not about a language handicap. >> host: the supreme court did see that case. >> guest: and never went because the lower court ruled in favor of gonzales and says you

cannot arbitrarily segregate mexicans because her as a state law that says you can do this are plessy versus ferguson and they are caucasians. the federal government teaches them as caucasians of the two italians and irish and and a racial groups. they are not a separate nonwhite group. the chicken rdc the reasons why african-americans and mexican americans were going to see either one of school segregation mexican-americans say you can't say. because number one most of us don't have a language handicap as we were born and raised in the tree and we speak english. so you are putting us in the mexican school and our kids can even speak spanish is bogus. it's a ruse. and the real reason is because they are dark brown and you don't want white kid in the late

winter or on kids and you just won't admit it and they were of course right that was the reason. the problem is that thurgood marshall, who was the first african-american supreme court justice put on the court in 1967. back in 1940s and 1930s view are fighting school desegregation -- fighting for desegregation. of course he had a supreme court decision in the late 19th century that said there's nothing in the constitution that says you cannot segregate people according to race if it fulfills some state security by sending host a concern. of course segregation of the races was considered absolutely necessary for survival of the way race. there is no real argument about that except arguments brought forth the african-americans in some progresso white folks

believed this was all bogus. so he is trying to say you can't -- after world war ii world war ii eocene segregation who are separate but equal, the plessy v. ferguson is inherently unequal. segregation separation is an equal amount or how similar facilities are. you can't make it equal. they're certain intangibles that make schools what they are. when you segregate them, it's not the same. >> host: we are at a time, but hopefully we've given you have a taste for what "quest for equality" is about. professor neil foley is the author. thank you. >> guest: thank you.ñ

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

up next, donkey faltering birmingham cloud being not as part of our cities to her. mr. keith recounts the military career of deadly meshwork in who commanded the american submarine uss wahoo in the pacific. >> morton was the most influential submarine skipper world war ii. he was really the first or submarine and i compare him quite a bit with the pilot aces

that did so much in world war ii and the air war, especially in europe. marsh is such an interesting character that i'm surprised that no one had done a biography on them yet. i done several. i was joking say i don't write about submarines and i don't read about world war ii history. i prefer to read about people and people in extraordinary situations and extraordinary people in extraordinary situations. and that is exactly describes to a t. deadly mush martin, i would say single-handedly because he is in tears at the time that were doing unusual things with those remarkable vessels when world war ii broke out, that he was the one who stood above the uss in the way he integrated the warfare. prior to world war ii, submarine

was in most cases a defensive weapon. he was designed to protect harbors and shorelines. they are culturally boats coming summer is because they were designed to also accompany a fleet of other vessels and be able to protect them from attack. the ability submerge which his attackers. in most cases they were in fast to stay and do a good job of that. at the same time not only with the equipment ltd., but the methods of fighting summary warfare for completely different. the theory was he stayed hidden. if you had a perfect shot it took the limited number of torpedoes you could carry. once he fired the shot you ducked and ran which wasn't very fast. only about 20 from the surface. so the stealth was to maintain and so submarine skippers were pretty much taught that's the way to slated to warfare.

the afternoon after pearl harbor and president roosevelt made the same mistake of speech come he immediately issued a first time in american history the declaration that we were an unrestricted warfare with the entire japan. instantly that changed the thought process of how we thought a war. luckily we had two things going. even though we were totally convinced it was nuclear war in the pacific, we still have some hard thinking quotes in the navy who had begun a new class of submarine. one that could go further, dive deeper, carry more torpedoes and not be enough more comfort. we think a summary warfare a lot of people think of the boats and those are extraordinarily effect gives machine. but the new class of submarines and a drawing board in the 1930s were far superior. the first was the cato class. the ghetto house would dive

deeper and have more firepower. one thing we didn't have when the war broke out in december december 1941 was submarine skippers who could fight the war we needed to fight against the japanese in the pacific. it's not their fault. they'd been titled differently to run the submarines. when the unrestricted warfare was declared, thankfully we had officers at the forefront and attempted the submarines were able to take them and use it effectively won the war broke out. i like to joke and say most had idle names, creed berlin, red ramage, milkmen again. these are great names. it sounded fake movie matinee heroes. and then here comes mush martin, deadly mush martin. not only was he a character, that he instinctively knew how

to take the new class of submarine and use it to its best effect in world war ii. that is who deadly was. other like a lot of submariners were far from salt water. most of his young years were spent in kentucky. his father was in the coal mining business, but instead sent him to miami because he and his teammates son -- teenage brother were rambunctious fellas in high school and his mother was and was not able to handle those two teenage boys. so he went to live with his aunt and uncle in miami. it's fortunate that the ants not over. well off and politically connected. they were able to get deadly into the naval academy and three santana high school. he did not have a distinguished career at the naval academy. he was a good athlete, world-class wrestler and also a football player. the wrestling was where he excelled. but he tended to rub his

construct turns and commanding officers the wrong way because he fought on its own purity and active an active and creative mind. he didn't necessarily take the study seriously. he much preferred to be in the skits on the chesapeake day. he loved to sail and that means he was obviously cut out to be in the navy, but not necessarily submarines. after he graduated he went to the west coast and was awarded and eventually decided he wanted to be a submarine captain. a lot of people chose submarine command for a number of reasons. one typically the vessel is the most rapidly to advance and become a natural. a lot of people enjoyed the smaller crew come in being able to know each crew member in each capability without having six or 700 men. they typically know where their

crews from, the parents are, how good they are when they have to dive procyte torpedoes. for that reason, a lot of people per for a. the new entity sub marines in the early 30s, they did not know they were necessarily. once he got into submarines, can he did not have especially cultural career. he was just a very pitiful submarine skipper and very old equipment, which were not very good. when the war broke out he was actually the skipper of one of those as votes and spent time in the caribbean and help protect the canal zone against any possible german activity. when the war did start, use off the east coast not one encounter any did fire one torpedo at the

u-boat. he knew it would not hit anything because his attire for when submarine to sink another submarine because not only of this for this, but to also this and this to think about. he did what most skippers at 10 after he fired a torpedo. he tied one away. he was actually reprimanded for that by his commanding officer who recommended that morton be sent to a different branch of the navy not remain a submarine captain. i captain. i do know that morton took that to hurt or just made a mad, that cannot play on he wanted to prove he had voted to to be a submarine skipper. he ended up as a prospective commanding officer. they give the command of an old boat called a dolphin. when he first walked on the boat he announced to the crew and

anyone must mean that this is a death trap. there's no when you take us into war. he would back and refuse to go out on a submarine that was in such bad shape and so ill-equipped. the submarine commanders said okay, and told them to drop the paperwork and get morton to the surface navy as quickly as he could. morton went in to plead his case to the squadron commanders. he walks in and shakes them in hand and the commander says, you know, if you like i remember you and annapolis. one chewy wrestler? they sat down and talked about football. the submarine division commander later said any man with a handshake like that can command my submarines because a word once again dodged a bullet and went on into stay in the submarine navy.

i'll mention appeared time he was fished on the west coast and was actually on the destroyer in the early 1930s in los angeles in california. he spent a lot of time with hollywood folks. he left hollywood parties could use a chicken pbo individual and told great stories. he told great stories and was very, very popular in hollywood. that's going to come back later on. after dodging the other bullet, morton was assigned as a prospective commanding officer on the uss wahoo. the pco or perspective to many knots as there means you take a ride on a patrol with an experienced submarine skipper and you kind of learn the ropes and you come back and get command of your vessel. there is a lot of collusion among the crew to get their current skipper replays.

collusion led to mush martin being assigned to the wahoo pco. he was actually aboard for wahoo's second patrol appeared on the first patrol the skipper at that time was very typical. we were committing submarines. he had fired shots and made tot. in the opinion of the executive officer, he actually avoided contact with a lot of potential targets that were ripe for syncing. and he strongly suspected the man was not cut out to be a sobering count them. that executive officer was each time i'm in name did purity would eventually end up the most

prolific severing captain in world war ii and sink more ships than anybody else. he recommended mush martin and morton was aboard and observe the other captain. he saw what was going on and started politicking once they got to israeli to take over wahoo and that is what happened. i think it is important to know that the condition in skipper on wahoo river vx so wrong way and was not very effective as a submarine commander went on to serve in the surface navy and give him/her look things that have been with a lot of the skippers. and i think we owe them thereto. i'd like to say they showed up for a gunfight with a knife. they just were prepared.

he went to lead us for patrol and that became the most spectacular or sub patrol. they think an entire convoy. they were deemed to be out for five weeks are a torpedoes in three weeks. morton used the dead. most didn't use the deck times. if you got cut on the server is not say to advertise that you could use the guns on the attack. morton wood plays right into the convoy were they deck and a scaling issue. they actually think entire convoy by themselves during a patrol. when i got back to pearl harbor, the navy knew we needed something is. they made sure the whole world knew about what appeared was on the front page of all the newspapers. newsreels theaters everywhere are talking about wahoo and his swashbuckling skipper, mush

martin. morton spent time with hollywood folks. that will come back later to. second patrol was just that is as spectacular. first patrol were ordered to pass a little island that had a pulled we whack. they had to use and that was one of the crew members have died nice trail you may so we whack on the we whack on there and were able to project on the law and draw in the rates have said they knew they were in the right area. the orders were to drive by and see if there is any enemy activity there. well to mush martin, pat and sailed right into the harbor come a harbor so shallow. they could touch the coconuts from the palm trees. they see a destroyer coming their way to mush martin executes the first successful down the throat shot to shoot

the profile of the destroyer that's almost impossible because it's a narrow range where you can shoot otherwise the torpedo will go too far and don't miss it completely. plus it's a very narrow target. it's quite a dramatic scene. that just led to the war. this all continued, but it's important to note they are having problems with torpedoes could they simply wouldn't explode, one of the higher ranking members of the submarine command was an engineer who designed torpedoes said he was reluctant to admit there is any problem. mush martin was not reluctant to admit there is a problem. even went to charles lockwood the commander is very specific and pitched a fit in his office about the situation with torpedoes. after that he called his wife

and said you've married a failure. and he honestly thought at that point even though charles lockwood is a big man, whose most famous submarine skipper in the world. he was convinced they would run him out of the navy because all the complaining about torpedoes. turns out i was one of the things that push the navy to go ahead and do something about torpedoes. and they did get better after that. he ended up with a total of five patrols in only 10 months. he was one of the most prolific skippers in the navy despite the problems they were having. for wahoo was lost on the last patrol in until 2005 we weren't even sure where wahoo was. we knew she was off the northern coast of japan, but thanks to

some of mush martin's relatives next to arthur klatt cussler and the navy and even russia and russian petroleum craft eventually located and took enough pictures to convince the navy it was wahoo and made several memorial services they are. it is a great relief to the family of the were lost to be little point to a particular place and say that is where the submarine went down. to that point, wahoo was still listed as missing in action. for other family members to the crew could've been captured, could type in concentration camps. they did no would have been. but the man who found wahoo and were able to do research actually talk to some of the pilots that fired on wahoo and piece together the total story.

morton as was his nature, he was able to dive deep enough to avoid bombs as the planes were dropping as she sank their. it's also important to note that people who were searching has established a memorial bear, not to wahoo only, but to wahoo and on the people who lost their lives at the hand of wahoo and they called them peace memorial. this is to honor the peoples on both of the sites action, not just the american submarine. it's a beautiful memorial overlooking that stretch of water where wahoo actually went down. >> host: what prompted you write this book? >> guest: had written several books about world war ii history is kind of moving away from that for a while and had some other ideas for books they wanted to do, but i was in jacksonville, florida on business and hide several hours before my flight

was scheduled so i reduce heat areas, georgia. in st. mary's there is one of the most wonderful summary museums in the whole world, a tiny little place. you could build a submarine out of the size they had. if you upstairs they have a lot of out-of-print books. they've actually taken the trouble to type up and reduce patrol imports from every single world war ii submarine patrol. morton by the way when he wrote in this patrol reports is the poetry. the guy could've been a great novelists because they had a colorful way of writing. but i pulled up a book about world war ii skippers about how influential morton and the others had been in the way was cannot do and how they were able to in the water. people don't realize that at no time in world war ii was the submarine force any more than 2% of the total naval forces in the

south pacific. and yet submarine sank over 50% of the enemy shipping sunken world war ii. we'll have 3209. the last 52 submarines. submarines also had the highest casualty rate in any branch of the service. we think about our aims were extremely brave men and the loss of lives. almost 25% of separators who went to war died in the submarines. but some internet and reading about mush martin i said i've got to find his biography somewhere. i've got to find out more about this man because he's one of the most fascinating characters. i'd love to read about it. deco painted a very good book called the week of the wahoo. but it's more about wahoo and the crew. the omen on the wahoo was almost on that last patrol where they were last, the ip was taken off the boat and he watched wahoo

slid away. he wrote a very good book about the enlisted man's point of view, but it wasn't just wahoo. with other ships in mush was an important part, but not a biography. i wanted to find out more about what they demand real and what what he was. just a great story and i'm a for a great story. >> you're watching 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books on c-span 2's booktv. >> on your screen as the tower in the center of the university of texas at austin campus. a booktv has been on location here at the university of texas conducting interviews with some of their professors who are also authors. every sunday turn the month of november we'll bring you interviews at 1:00 p.m. eastern time is part of our university series.