over a million upper americans. the old south that it is sometimes called to the black south and the deep south, georgia, alabama, simply, louisiana. the mississippi river.

third great migration been the movement of black people of the deal itself from the south lewises of the north in the town sued century. there the total is over 6 million. of course our fourth migration, which is just beginning since 1965, that is the change of our immigration laws which have brought people of african descent, africans and people of african descent from all over the world to the united states. >> host: if we could cover the second migration, the internal migration, why did that occur? >> guest: it begins mostly after the war of 1812 and is, of course toward the civil war. it is driven by the fact of by the industrial revolution and the discovery of cotton in the manufacture of cotton cloth and

the creation of this great to monday where we don't have will of homage to los co-stars can but this nice, soft cotton. of course a record the growing of come. the transformation of the southern economy, the american economy from growing tobacco and race along the seaboard to this new commodity in the interior drives the sale, the forced movement of slaves of the upper south to lower south. >> host: was the u.s. population of african-americans are black people? cover the growth of the revolutionary war to the civil war? speech to local there are about four and half million black people in the south : the united states in 1860. a quarter million black people pre in the north in the

courtroom million kilowatts of a quarter of a million black people free within the south. and 4 million black people who are forced slaves. that population grows low little more than a million at the time of the revolution. >> host: are all for migrations did surge in demand for labor? >> guest: i think that is true they're driven by changes of economy at the bottom. that is the necessity to find commodities. mostly sugar. tobacco or rice, corn is the you could sell of the international market and hopefully from the perspective of those planters as layoffs, a lesson

demands. that, of course, and drives the trans-atlantic slave trade. of course the, and drive, that internal slave trade. and, of course, the rise of manufacturing in the north end of those two world wars that drive, you know, that they're great migration. of course changes in the world economy drives this latest migration since 65. >> host: how many of these migrations forced? >> guest: the first two are forced, in of -- enormous : dramatic movements of people. and we go beyond that, this question of forced entry becomes a low more problematic. when somebody says i want you to walk up plantations, you know,

during the new deal, during the 1830's because i'm aaron mechanical cotton picker, and the government is giving me money not to grow cotton. what you of my plantation or going to kill you, your wife, your kids to when your dog. you don't exactly say that is a free migration. people who are driven out of somalia or nigeria by these various wars against all against all that have taken place at the end of the 20th-century, we cannot inject this is a free migration hello what is subtly different from the slave trade. >> host: what was the effect of the 1965 immigration act? >> guest: until the 1965 immigration act to in the middle of the 20th century we had stopped being a nation of immigrants. in 1924 migration was cut off by

a variety of legislation which created limits on the number of people who had come to the estates. burrillville of the 1900's we have become a nation of transformed people. the emergence 65 they open their emigration and made as, again, and these emigrants. that is fairly well recognized. what is not recognized as is even more profound this transforms the black population as well. >> host: has the experience of current indifferent and other nationalities to backhoe.

>> guest: each one of these migrations is different, different people coming from different places. those are differences as well. one of the, perhaps, most striking differences, the post 1965 migration of people from africa is that of all people who come white and black society 65, african people who have the highest rates of education, almost uniformly high school graduates, many, of course, have it colet's to agree. some have multiple degrees. lots of technical the experience we think of engineers going to houston. the very striking migration from the caribbean, of course is different, and we can even see

them migration from jamaica or barbados may be different as well. so there are always differences. >> host: we are talking with professor ira berlin here at the university of maryland. his most recent book, the making of african-americans, the four great migrations. and should point out his written a couple of other books including many thousands gone below the first two centuries of slavery in america translates without masters. i noted in this book that is dedicated. speech to a great teacher, and a great friend as well. boohoo both send and please to do that. he died while i was writing that book. >> host: and who was john hope franklin? >> guest: probably the dean of african american history who wrote a great text called from

slavery to freedom along with the through the dozens of other books. but he really provides what we can call the master narrative of the african-american experience, and experience but begins in slavery kaelin's in freedom and reminds us of the violence and terror him that this particular part of the african-american experience but also the hope and the improvement of black life. and in the way it has become a very important, very important help and understanding the black experience, perhaps the most important. >> host: how did you get interested to back-to-back

speeches african-american history? info : of those things which i have often asked and pondered the essence of that question, like so many planes, and not sure myself. a graduate school, and in the 1960's i was at the university of wisconsin. i was involved in the civil rights movement : neither in any major way. i've told bandages. and i think to look like many people at that point you wanted to know more about the experience. i think we had a notion that if you could figure it out, you could figure out a race. once you explain it in a lot of the nonsense would be over. they turn them leave notion coverage would seem, but think that is certainly in the idea of many of my friends and

colleagues. i think you wanted to make your work, melissa life. and then, i think, it was kind of like, you know, pulling on, you know, the threat of a sweater. the more you learn the more you wanted to learn how of the more you lose a couple of the morion listed, but did not know. so much of education as a process of finding yell how little you know. you know, will begin by knowing a lot and then realize there are so many things that we don't know and many things that will never know. so i think it is that. it is an extraordinary, an extra in their subject. in some ways a kind of impossible subject, trying to understand how you can now once

be obtained, that is the chair, a piece of property and that the same time being a human being who has listened and as conservation and then becomes the kutcher version with strives the history and experience for slaves and everybody was trying to figure no way out of passenger conjuration. >> host: howdy you invested in a book like this? >> guest: it goes of the course of trees centuries. i know pretty well from my own studies, some of which i did not know harley of all because i work dollars mostly in the 18th and 19th century the often going bax's with to the success in century. purposeless segno of the 20th.

this provinces of this century. so what i did was to face. what they was, if you want to park my own previous research and where i didn't i tried to to buy what i would call post holes , look very closely at the paris sources of particular subject that i was interested in and then on a large and very grand secondary blucher. as would other scholars. but the did nothing guarantees to reinvent the wheel on the subject. it is those kinds of things, of drawing on my own knowledge. postilion such as roy was particularly interested in what

titis? >> will move a wonderful place of the department of history at the university of maryland is that nobody claims ownership over particular subjects. i am a historian of the civil war, and nobody else can to step of me. i have been able to teach many, you know, many things. i'd probably buy favorite is just the general american history, of course. we tend to get the big questions , kind of paint with the broom rather than a brush. then i teach specialize scorches -- courses, slavery, labor, labor history, many of the. courses from the revolution to the jacksonian to the civil war. civil war and registration. recently restarted is center here called the center for the

history of the new america, the center dedicated to the steady of migration globally and preparing to teach a course in migration history tell which i am quite said about. >> host: will we be studying the. barrick currently living in. >> guest: agrees seen in american history. it will continue to shape american history. a presence for is just talking up the black population, more than 5% to 01 and 20 is an immigrant. we take, you know, the black population of the immigrants and their children, it's one end to

end. immigrants just don't go anywhere. they go to particular places. so here in washington the emigrant portion of a black population is 17%. in new york is over 35 percent. in fact tell if we took immigrants and their children in new york city to that is probably the majority of the black population. this said there would know something about their history.

likin differently. i think the short answer to the question is absolutely. >> is it fair to compare remember in and out to the 1920's? >> i think, jeff. it's all about comparing these four great migrations. i'm a great advocate of comparison a muffin tins. doesn't give the migrations, but the. between the migrations. people come to identify and become deeply identified with place. that is, if we take a look at

that massive second great migration of people moving out of the upper south and in some lower self, all of the stops in 1816. black people pretty much remain there were they are and sell that third great migration begins and the world war college world war one, men like w. e. b. dubois with his harvard education and his degree from german university and goes out to the south in the 1890's and says these people have, you know -- i can't think of them as any other way that peasantry which is reason place. identified from the land of the soil this season's. this is the way african-american life will be. we know that in 30 years like people are on their way to becoming an urban population in

the u.s. states, identified, you know, not with the black belt of alabama and mississippi, but with the alleys of chicago and the streets of the york and so on. so it is less and immigration, but it is what i call on the book a kind of pattern as we move back and forth between massive dramatic migrations and indeed rootedness in place. while the of and to vacation with place. and i would presume that is going to continue as well. >> host: we have been talking with professor ira berlin about his most recent book, the making of african-americans, the four great migrations. distinguished university professors the university. ..