on to the good stuff of to read me and straight forward bring the agencies together and so i think the scowcroft model is better as a person who works with the senior cabinet people who was a much more below them in terms of. in our look at conclusion we say there are three rules for effectiveness, the national security adviser. the first is a somewhat trust. not just at your level of the devotees level so that multiple loveless working on veterans' land policy. there are a lot of details about this and considering options for

the president with the information detailed come every from the president wants. some presidents like to read, some like to read essays come most like to read, like to be talked to, some don't like to be talked to, like to be lectured, some like to be given but points and you have to be a response to that. it is one of the problems he is much more in sync. >> purchaser did any of the former national security advisers talk to you for your book? >> yes we talked to a great majority -- i talked to bundy several times. we have in all history round table which we have five normal security issues including roscoe, tony blake, we have others who interviewed colin powell and we've gotten poindexter, the greatest

failures since the national security adviser in the iran contra affair in the region have fenestration. what we interviewed the bulk of them in one form or other have you talked about your own. we organized a series of round tables in which we talk about how the process worked in particular administrations over particular issues and these are on the web site of the center for international and security studies at speed golf and he will find discussions from officials in the nixon administration, one for the clinton administration and one for the george h. w. bush administration etc. and these are on the record and available for stock.

we had one of the national security advisers and to that she attacked when interviews. we also had an interview with brzezinski i should add but we were not able to get into the degree to publish to read estimate we've been talking with i.m. destler, the author inn chateau the oval office profile of the national security of pfizer's when the presidents they served from jfk to george w. bush. thanks for your time. >> it's been a pleasure. thank you for having me. the making of africa and america is the name of the book. professor year the university of maryland is the author and the subtitle for great migrations i

gave the title greater recourse the trans-atlantic slave trade in the first middle passage, the movement of some 400,000 african to the mainland north america. second, migration is the internals late trade the movement over a million the old south as it is sometimes called the black belt to the deep south, georgia, alabama, mississippi, louisiana, across the mississippi river. third, great migration being the movement of black people from the deep south from the soft to the cities of the north and the 20 at century. the total is over 6 million, and of course the migration which is

just beginning in 1965 that this the change if our immigration law is that have brought people of african descent from all over the world to the united states. >> if we could, the second migration, the internal migration. why did that occur? >> it occurs it begins mostly after the war of 1812 in the tens of course with and it's driven by the fact the discovery it's close to our skin but we have a nice soft cotton and of course the requires the growing of cotton and the transformation of the southern economy, the

american economy from growing tobacco and rice along the seaboard to the new commodity in the drive of the first movement of sleeves. spinet how did it grow from the revolutionary war to the civil war? >> there were 4 million about four and a half million black people in the south and the united states in 1860 but a quarter of a million people in the north, about a quarter of them had little influence over a million black people, free with in the south and just. the population growth from a little more than a million at the time of the revolution was a on the card.

aren't all for migrations. yes i think that's true. they are driven by the changes of the economy at the bottom. that is the necessity to the commodities mostly sugar and then click the tobacco were rice but you could sell on the international market and hopefully from the perspective of those slave holders who grow them have an almost elastic demand and that drives that transatlantic slave trade and of course cotton drives that internal slave trade and of course the rise of manufacturing in the north in the two world

wars john leaves the third great migration to of course changes in the world economy drives this latest migration in 65. >> how many of these migrations were forced and how many were free? >> will certainly the first two are forced by migration traumatically. when we go beyond that, there's a question of forced and free it becomes a little more problematic that when somebody says i want you off my plantation and during the new deal to because i now have a mechanical cotton picker and the government is giving me the money not to grow cotton i want you off my plantation or in going to kill you, your wife, your kids and your dog we don't exactly say that is a free

migration people who are driven out of somalia or nigeria by these wars against all. that has taken place in the end of the 20th century. it ascent matter if we set isn't a free migration but certainly it's different than the slave trade. >> what was the effect of the 1965 immigration act? >> entel the 1965 immigration act, the middle of the 28th century we stopped the nation of immigrants. a variety of legislation which creative limit on the number of people who come to the united states and by the middle of the 20th century, we had become a

nation mostly of native-born people. 1965 the transformation the new legislation opens up immigration that has made us again a nation of immigrants. now that's fairly well recognized. what is not recognized is that the even more profound way and has transformed the black population as well. >> let's get into the fourth migration will but. has the experience of the african migration current come in different than other nationalities? >> i think it has. each one of them lying greece and it's a somewhat different people coming from different places of course. those are differences as well. one of the perhaps most striking differences, the post 1965 migration of people from africa

is that of all the people who come, white and black african people have the highest rates of education almost uniformly all high school graduates, many of course have college degrees, some have multiple degrees, lots of technical experience. we think of the nigerian engineers going to visit and so on. it's a very striking event. migration from the caribbean of course is different than that migration from say jamaica or more per -- prados so there are always differences. >> we are talking with professor odierno berlin at the university of maryland. his most recent book the making of african america the four great migrations. he pointed out his written a

couple other books including many thousands on the first two centuries of slavery in north america and sleeves without masters. dr. berlin, noted in this book that it's. i was both sad and pleased to have to do that. while i was written that book. >> who was john hope franklin? >> john hope franklin probably the dean of african-american history wrote a great text the call from slavery to freedom along with literally dozens of other books but in slavery to freedom. it's not the african-american experience. an experience which begins in

slavery, in this in freedom and reminds us of the violence and the terror that is particularly connected to the african-american experience but also the hope and the spreading of the improvement from black life and in that way it's become very important for understanding the black experience. perhaps the most important one that we have. >> how did you get interested in this topic area? >> in african-american history. you know, it's one of those things which i often asked and i've often pondered the answer to that question. like so many things i'm not sure myself. i was in graduate school in the 1960's. i was a the university of wisconsin. i was involved in the civil

rights movement. not any major way. you can say i world bandages. at that point you want them to know more about the experience. i think that we have had a notion that if you could figure it out, could figure out a race once you explain that then a lot of the nonsense would be over and the 90's notion would seem that that certainly was an idea as many of my friends and colleagues had. i think you wanted to make your work with your life and that i think. definitely on the threat of a sweater.

the more you learned the more you wanted to learn, the more you knew, the more you understood why you didn't know. we begin by knowing a lot and then we realized there are so many things we don't know and there are many things we will never know, so i think it's that. it is an extraordinary subject in some ways a kind of impossible subject of trying to understand how you can be a thing, a piece of property, and at the same time being a human being who has holes in that contradiction becomes a contradiction which drives the history of and the experience of

sleeves for everybody trying to figure out your way out of that contradiction. >> how do you research a book like this? >> this is a book that to read some of which i didn't know hardly at all because i worked always were mostly in the 18th and 19th century but often the way back to the 15 dead and 16th century but purposely staying out of the 20th century this brought me into the 20th century. so i think one it drew my own previous research and where i didn't i tried what i would call post cold. that this very closely at the

primary sources of a particular subject i was interested in three to the nine moved into a secondary literature. what other scholars have said. so i didn't think i need to invent or reinvent the wheel on many subjects. so i think it is those kind of things i would say drawling on my own knowledge, john wan with other scholars have said and then kind of post poling and subjects where clan was particularly interested in the secondary literature to address. sprigg dr. berlin with you to picture the university? >> welcome the wonder of the wonderful things about the department of the university of maryland is that nobody claims ownership over particular subjects. i am the historian of the civil

war and nobody else can teach that but me. i've been able to teach three probably my favorite course is just the american general history question. we get to ask the questions and paint with a broom rather than a brush. i teach a course in the history of slavery and in labor history. i taught many of the courses from the revolution to the jacksonian to the civil war and the reconstruction recently we started a center here and pick. a dedicated to the migration globally and preparing to teach a course on that which i'm quite excited about. >> will we be studying the

period currently less than 50 years looking back at the immigration and to the country right now? is the middle and there's any question the great theme of american history always has been a great theme of american history into will continue to shape american history. you know, at present, just talking about the black population more than 5% of the black population, one in the 20 is an immigrant. if we take the black population of the immigrants and their children it is one in ten. immigrants just don't go anywhere, they go to particular places. so here in washington the immigrant portion of the black population is 17% in the new york is