in texas, there's 30 years experience, and we say to grandparents who will not be affected at all, do you mind 23 your grandchildren have control of the savings so no politician can rip them off and they are allowed to have two or three more times more retirement than they get from the government, and do you mind if your grandchildren decide the year they retire based on what they do rather than politicians tell them and do you care that your grrn increase the size of the american children by saving all this money that becomes capital. chill lay today, the size of their social security system is 72% of the economy. they are allowing them now to invest outside the country. the estimate -- two last thoughts on this, the estimate when first developed is over a

generation you reduce income inequality by 15%. i'm waiting for the "new york times" to confirm this, that a personal social security savings account because every worker owns stocks and bonds, and every worker is a k358ist, every single person has a real estate, which you don't have under social security. the result is you literally reduce inequality the right way by raising people up rather than lowering them down like obama. last example. with that scale of savings, they estimate you increase the size of the national economy dramatically. there's a bigger economy with bigger paychecks allowing you to have more savings with a better retirement with more jobs. now, -- >> [inaudible] >> no, but the difference is this will only pass if in hundreds of college campuses, the students decide they want it. the people have to be for it. reagan was a genius at convincing the people -- he used to say my job is to show the

light to the american people so they will turn up the heat on congress. you've got a strong effective american leader has to be one with the people, and then you can change washington. i spent a lot of my time worrying about how do we, the people, defeat they, the establishment? i don't want to try to figure out how to manage the establishment, but how to change it, and that's a fundamental difference. thank you, all, very, very much. [applause] [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> there's 7 # entitlement

programs in washington, d.c., and the vast majority of those are -- as far as money's concerned, are operated by the state government. why? because they are state functions. yet somehow or another, federal government thinks they have a role to play in doing something that's a state function. >> it's the same to treat everyone the same. wind, solar, whatever it may be. the federal government doesn't need to be in the business of picking winners and losers in the energy industry. >> we presented the constitutional convention and wrote the president is commander in chief. if he knew what the commander in chief meant, and an explainer in chief or campaigner in chief. >> read the late oath comments and link to our media partners in the early primary and caucus states at c-span.org/campaign2012.

>> translator: founder of ben and jerry's ice cream were here to speak about the occupy wall street movement, and they called on other corporations to support the occupiers. >> happy to be here and occupy the national press club with all of you, even if it's just for an hour or so. yet, i'm jeff, and i've been

with the company since it started. i am currently chair of the board of directors. i want to talk a little bit about our relationship with unilever, and why the board of directors issued support for the occupy movement after two weeks it started and why businesses should support the occupy movement. basically what it is -- we have a board of directors that was established when the company was sold, and this board of directors was given contract rights to two of the three main missions of the company. we have the rights to force and control the social mission of the company, to make it continue on forever, our agreement goes on inperpetuity, and that is one the main functions, and we operate like a board, and those

contract rights are very firm and very real. the other one we have is to ensure that the product tastes good. i hope it still does. you folks can report on that probably better than i, and so that is essentially our role, and we have a board of -- we have 11 seats on the board, two are held by unilever folks, nine by other people, and i've been on the board now for 30 years. when the occupy movement started two and a half weeked after it started, our board of directors issued a statement of solidarity and support for the occupiers. we did this because we were deeply touched by their courage and audacity, commitment to non- violence, caring, generosity, the caring of each other, the voice of the unheard, and for the need of a just system. for these and more, we offer our

deepest gratitude and republics. these values are those that we, as individuals and as ben and jerry's as a company, have tried to live by, and, yes, we understand we are a business. we understand that we're a wholly owned subsidiary, and yes, it is a complicated and complex marriage, but none of us sitting here from ben and jerry's believes you have to leave humanity at home because you run a business. in fact, we believe you must bring that humanity in, and once you bring it in from the board level to each and every decision that the company needs to make, the opportunities expand rather than shrink. i have visited zuccoti park, occupy london, occupy washington, and a few others. i scooped ice cream at many of the venues, and one of the things you get is you are forced to stay in the same place for a couple hour, and that's when you pick up the rhythm and culture

of occupy, and it is from those movements that i feel my personal commitment and the commitment of the company has grown stronger. the occupiers have raised, among others, the issues of economic inequality. this has been a core issue and concern for the company. one of the incredible successes of the occupy movement is how it has begin the issue more exposure and relevance that at any time since the war on poverty. some of you may remember that, or dr. king's poor people's march on washington. the interesting thing is that neither of these efforts have the support of business, so we're here today to try to encourage other businesses, large and small, to join us and to add their voices actions and resources to the non-violent effort. when they ask why should they join? there's a couple reasons from small businesses, and others can speak of the larger businesses, but small businesses that have

less than 20 employees make up more than half the number of businesses in the united states. they are really part of the 99%. they are part of the community. they survive on their relationships in their community, with their neighbors. they are engaged in community civic events, and when their communities struggle, they struggle. when their communities succeed, they succeed, and they have more in common with the 99% than the 1%. secondly, the 1% often is not very interested or supportive in having these smaller businesses join their ranks. many years ago, 25 years ago actually, ben and jerry's was faced with a large business to try to keep it from growing when we were really small. haagen-daas was owned by pillsbury, and they asked everyone to stop selling ben and jerries, and it was an an-trust violation, but we didn't have

the resources to hire lawyers and await the time to get the issue resolved, so jerry had a one-person protest to the headquarters stating what is the dough boy afraid of? lastly, the citizens united case increased the influence of the 1%. the small farmer, local food producer, alternative energy provider, mom and pop retail store owners, local credit unions, and scores of others have to wait longer for something to trickle down, and every day there's a government awarded contract that was not bid, some lobbying effort going unchallenged to consumer rights to know, some meeting happening between the haves and legislated official, and some large political donor getting patronage. money needs to be out of politics. it was said years ago, we can have a democracy or great wealth

concentrated in the hands of the few, but we can't have both. we choose democracy. the ceo, the founders, the board, and management of ben and jerry's are aligned in the solidarity of the occupiers for the long haul so that we are help them at the moral ark of the universe that dr. king referred to towards moral justice. thank you. before i sit, i'm lucky to be chair of the board when east ceo. he's a pleasure to work with. thanks. [applause] >> good morning. so i'm jill -- jim stencil, and i'm the guy who speaks after the introduction, and before the ones that everybody came to see, and i'm used to people looking behind

me, but before i start, i also want to see if every ceo of company had a boards and founders as committed, as dedicated as ben and jerry's i think the world would be a hell of a better place, and it's been a great experience for me, and i something i truly cheerish. today i'm here, and i really want to try to explain why i think it's good for your business to support the 99%. now, we have to deal with the first obvious questions -- what's this got to do with ice cream? are we going to solve 24 -- this by launching another flavor? maybe, maybe not. i think, you know, ice cream is never wrong, you know, it never does any harm, but i think that steven feels strongly that his flavor, the american dream is

the perfect flavor for the occupy movement, but we have a lot of suggestions from consumers and people out there, and american occupy is one, freeze peach for people is another, so we have not totally given up on that, but i really think it's got everything to do with ice cream. it's got everything to do with pizza, cars, soap, you know, regular folks, the 99% that are the engine of the economy. they represent the majority of consumption in america, the key customers in the real main street economy. they should be the focus of the economy. after all, the 99% eats more ice cream than the 1%, so i think that's why the occupy movement and the 99% is a huge opportunity for business opportunity in america. the ben and jerry's business nod

model is not a new model. it's been around for a long time, and it works, and we operate under a mission statement that tries to articulate a sustainable corporate model of linked prosperity. sounds pretty fancy. we do it because it's a three-part mission statement weighing up equally, equal importance, the product mission, make the world's best ice cream. the economic mission, give a great return to shareholders and give a sustainable model to be copied, and the social mission, how do we contribute to the common good of our society and our community? that drives everything we do at ben and jerries, and look at every decision through those three things. why should anybody else do this? why should all businesses support the 9 #%. first of all, they are your customers. we are ice cream guys, not economist, but we believe the middle class is the core driving

force of con suggestion in -- consumption in america, and our political and economic -- we call it the ecosystem, is unbalanced because they are top heavy. they serve the few at the top well, but too often they fail the many in in the middle and the bottom, the 99%. 24 is true on a national level and a global level, and at the end of the day, people work in our offices and factories. they buy our products. they grow our ingredients. they pay the taxes that build the roads, the water treatment facilities, the phone line, the schools at all of our businesses use, shared prosperity of people centered prosperity is really the only type of economic model that can lead to sustainable success, and even some economists might agree with us on that. the second point is competition is at the heard of our economic system. we all lose is great companies and entrepreneurs cannot compete

because of the powerful links of the political system and the corporate interest of the 1%. all games have laws, and everybody has to play by the same rule. that's how we create healthy competition to create economic growth for everyone. thirdly, consumer loyalty. if you have not noticed, the world's changing out there. the 99% are your key consumers, and with the social media revolution, they increasingly know everything about your company. it's not just a badge and a price with a benefit. they are choosing products with a positive impact on the community and minimum impact on the environment, and that's the heart of the philosophy. the more we give, the more we get. finally, there's the dedication and commitment of its employees. they are the 99%, and i can tell you they give more and perform

better, and they define solutions to the challenges when they know the company they work for embraced this role in society, and this is certainly true at ben and jerry's, so i think, you know, business is one of the most powerful forces of change on the planet, and yet, as we've seen over the last years when people get together and demand change be it in the middle east or occupy, you better listen. as they can be an even more powerful force for change, and that's why i'm excited about this movement. business as usual is not going to change this system, and that's why other businesses must listen to the 99%. what do we do next? we think that america has some of the most talented politician policymakers in the world, and our job is really to make sure they can get on with their jobs representing that -9d 9% without -- 99% without undoing the 1%, and that's why we are committed to getting corporate money out of

the politics in united states, and that hampers our ability to make progress on every political, social, and economic issue because it takes away the accountability of government to the 99%. we think that's really the core challenge, so in january of this year of 2011, the ben and jerry's was a founding member for business for democracy, a campaign bringing businesses together to oppose the supreme court's misguided citizen united ruling. you know this 5-4 ruling allowed corporations to spend unlimited funds to forth or oppose candidates for public office. this seems a far cry from government of the people for the people by the people, and in 2012, we're launching a new campaign called get the doe out of politics. we work to resolve the unreasonable influence of corporations on our comok. it's a -- democracy. it's a huge challenge, and we need the power of the occupy movement to make it happen, and

thankfully, there's great organizations like free speech for people, public citizen, and common costs to help us all make it happen. business as usual is not going to do it, so that's why occupy wall street comes into t. thank you. i'm now going to hand it over to jerry. [applause] >> good to see everyone. it's really a pleasure to be here. i'd like to speak about how i got connected with occupy wall street, ben and i both live in vermont, so we are not exactly at the place where all these things happen, but we had followed a little about what happened at occupy, and probably a couple weeks after it started, i had the opportunity to be down in new york city. i stopped by occupy.

it was incredibly inspiring what i saw. it was people who were committed, thoughtful, dedicated, and people who were engaged in one of the greatest activities that has led to the progress in our country becoming what it is today, engaged in protests against inequality and injustice. these were people who had played by all the rules in the system, had an education, had jobs, lost jobs, and after everything, they had nothing to show for it or in some cases, less than that. they had huge debts. it was clear we were operating in a system that was not really

working for people. it was not the american dream that we had all been told about. i went back to vermont a couple weeks later, ben and i went back to occupy wall street. we scooped ice cream. and occupiers enjoy ice cream as much as anyone else, and i was a little concerned we might not be welcomed so much, that we were business people, and i was concerned that occupy was going to be anti-business, and what i found was that the folks who occupy are not antibusiness. they are anti a system that advances the few and does not give opportunity to the many. a system that increases the wept

-- wealth and income gap, the enormously growing income and wealth gap between the rich and the poor, and a system which gives corporations enormous power over our political system. ben and i continued to visit more occupy sites. i scooped ice cream at occupy dc, occupy seattle. i visited occupy portland, oregon. you know, it's funny, after going to all of these different occupies and talking with people and being with people, what becomes clear is something that i know something that you know, something we all know in our heart of hearts that this system

is rigged. you know, we all know it. we don't talk about it. we kind of plod on through our lives struggling as best we can, but, let's face it. the system is rigged. it advantages the wealthy and the small numbers at the top, and the other people don't get a real opportunity. i was thinking of bringing along a song today, thinking of maybe having theme music when i walked in. i was going to bring along the song everybody knows. everybody knows that the dice are loaded. then i thought, well, you know, it's too ease so tearic and nobody would really get it. it was probably a good decision. anyway, ben and i now as

individuals are engaged in helping to raise money for occupy wall street. we've joined in a group with several other business people and some occupy folks. we're going to be raising money for some basic infrastructure needs at occupy wall street that have become more apparent since the occupy movement has been evicted from zucotti park. we'll be raising money for some assembly space, for some office space, for computers, and things like that, and i'm just really thrilled that we're able to help in some small way to show our support, and i'm thrilled that ben and jerry's is here today publicly expressing our support. thank you very much, and here's ben. [applause] >> hi.

really happy to have the honor to be here with you guys today. you know, i've personally been inspired by the occupy wall street movement because i believe it has the power to finally rest control of our country from corporations and the wealthy and return our country to a place that is of the people, by the people, and for the people. call me naive, but i believe that stuff they taught us in elementary school. over the last few weeks, the old order has been shutting down occupy encampments around the country. well, they may have succeeded enforcibly evicting peaceful protesters from some parks, but you cannot evict an idea whose time has come.

brute violent force, whether perpetrated by the military or by police and riot gear, it can no longer contain people who are oppressed, whether it's over there in countries that are run by dictators or over here where our country is run by giant corporations. the internet, social networking, and smart phones have forever changed the balance of power between the people and those who try to control them in their own narrow self-interests. now that ordinary people can communicate with each other in mass without being filtered in realtime, the people are truly powerful. in just two short months, occupy wall street has succeeded in unmasking america's dirty little

secrets. over the last three decades, the income of the top 1% grew more than the income of the entire bottom 90%. today, the u.s. has the 5th largest spread between rich and poor of every country in the world. it's now common knowledge that 1% of our population owns 40% of the wealth. the overall message of occupy wall street is that this didn't happen by accident. it's the result of tax policies, trade policyings, sub -- policies, subsidies, labor laws, regulations, or lack thereof, and all of it has been done in the narrow self-interests of corporations, many of whom have socialized costs and privatized

profits. to put it in occupy wall street language, banks got bailed out. we got sold out. what the occupy movement is saying is that it doesn't have to be that way. we can create a system that works for everyone, but in order for that to happen, we need to create a system where everyone's voice is equal. one person, one vote, not one dollar, one vote. the movement has been criticized because it doesn't have a concise list of demands. the demands are clear. stop running the country in the narrow self-interests of the rich and powerful. return to the ideals that the country was founden on. it's about values, fairness, equality, justice, but if you want specifics, i'll give you a

few that the occupy movement would not he hesitate to embrace. resend corporate personhood. corporations have become too powerful and too greedy. you know, corporations were originally designed to serve the interests of the public, and now it seems it's the public who serves the interest of the corporations. the concept of corporate personhood, illegal construct whose purpose is to maximize profit, deserve the same inalienable rights as people is absurd. ..

and that money is free speech requires a constitutional amend that. you know, i used to think that passing a constitutional amendment was next to impossible. but now that the occupied 99% of men has the potential, it can create a broad based massive nonparty centaurs, which has the power to make a constitutional amendment a reality. you know, i think the most important moment for me, the most interesting moment for me when i scooped a nice cream in

ducati park was when a clean-cut 27-year-old came to me and said, i don't get it. you're a 1%. what are you doing supporting the 99%? and that's just it. that is how bad things have become. our kids have grown up in a world where operating in your own self-interest has become so much the norm at not doing so is incomprehensible. fairness and justice is not about health interest. it is about doing what is right. the stuff in the bible and upon which all religions are based is not about self-interest. it's the idea that were all in this together. capitalism and the common good can coexist and thrive if on only covering that would create a level playing field on which

to do so. you know, without the evictions going on, some people may think that the occupied 99% movement is waning. after spending the last several weeks working with occupy wall street, i can tell you that the movement is alive and well. you cannot have it an idea whose time has come. the tech fix will evolve. this is the beginning of the beginning. [applause] >> okay, regarding open it to crushers. give us your name, organization you represent and keep your questions to the point please thank you. bob. [inaudible]

[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] why don't more corporate leaders see that 99% is the way to make it. is if the mistake is selfishness or just that they don't get it? or is it something else? [inaudible conversations] [laughter] why don't those other guys get it? you know, i think it is

misguided self-interest. i think that they don't yet realize that reducing economic disparity in getting more money into the hands of people who don't have much is actually going to cause a situation where those people buy more of their products. you know, it was -- u.s.a.? schopenhauer said that all truth goes through three stages. first, it is ridiculed. second it is finally opposed. third is accepted as being self-evident. we are at the very beginning of

that curve. and corporations are notoriously slow to react. [laughter] >> you know, i'm going to try to just answer the question briefly. i think it comes from a fear that what you open your heart to the issue of what is happening to the main people in this country who don't eat and your not on the work force, that this whole thing going on in the united state, then you're afraid it will be never ending. so i think there is the rigidity of opening your heart that comes from a lot of folks. not only in the business world, but other places. i think it is that fear that keeps them from saying let's try to make a difference in this country for us folks. thank you. i am back i am back.

[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> you know, i think it's really important that were not advocating come and he shouldn't take public stands in their own name. what we are at achieving his don't spend money and buy a light at officials. so i think that's a big distinction. and you know, companies have a duty to really explain their

policies, what they're trying to do and their points of view. they should just not interfere in the elective process that we keep a clear segregation of those parts of interest. that was a post-launch for you rather than, you know, election campaign. >> in the back. >> suggested a clear come at ben & jerry's contribute any money to partisan politics? and never has? >> the obama flavor came after he was elected and it was a way to celebrate a new presidency. >> i just want to pick up -- [inaudible]

>> so, we are actually having a new york just after this fashion and meeting up with a bunch of folks they are. the key for us is to tap into the occupied movement. so to get the door out of politics would be a big initiative for 2012 and we focus on getting off to a start, but it's also important to involve people. the state democratic movement. they don't want to hijack it. we want to be part of it. we've got fabulous partners in a civil society, but we have to recognize that the keep doing what we've been doing, were not going to generate the results. and that is what they get joe out of politics campaign is really focusing on. we do another flavor, make -- we have a couple of options on the table and we have asserted john the final straw yet.

>> ben & jerry's had in perfect charity. i [inaudible] [inaudible] >> two u.s. cents in light the 10 commandments of ethical behavior but the knowledge of admiration to iron this concept of life in perpetuity?

>> now, i have not been a to the mountain. [laughter] so, i don't have the tablets. i have seen some that other people in have come up with. i think jeffrey hollander, the former seventh generation guy came up with him, you know, there is a lot at this rate ideas for how corporations should behave. but i really think that in terms of the perpetuity issue, that we should go back to the original construct of corporations, which is that they were only granted

charters by the states in order to serve the public interest and if the state believes that it was no longer serving the corporate interest, they could revoke the charter. and i don't think that we should have corporations that perpetuity. >> at ben & jerry's, i think it's really about the system that we've created around it, governance model with a very stated mission. but there's also a bigger piece, which is to benefit corporation movement. i think to benefit corporation movement, we really allow all companies to sign up to the system in a very clear guidance that is audible, transparent to everyone to see that you're taking on a social responsibility of doing it.

[inaudible] [inaudible] >> the short answer is yes. you know, to be frank, we work with a whole large group of companies pretty much on an ongoing basis. but occupied when we put our statesmen out and i got up and looked around, there was a bit crowd out there. you know, it was the criticisms that then alluded to is very quick to get a bunch of risk managers and insane buddies i can't, it's uncomfortable because it's demanding change. it not asking for change.

it's demanding change. people are now really coming on board. i think business as business leaders like myself have much more comfortable when we are in the solution node then when we are in the protest note. in this movement transforms itself from being pure protest and that strong symbolism in a call for change to embracing the type of change we need to do. i think businesses will find it much easier to come on board because they will see the self-interest in it. [inaudible] idea mark >> he criticized the notion i started the tip of the iceberg with liability and so on for the corporate charters.

in a very different form of socialization. the solution can be seen by any movement of a witness 2.003%, which is quite low of a total transformation. >> well, i think one of the tenants of occupy wall street is to speak with us, not for us. and you know, that particular initiatives that i mentioned, corporate personhood, you know, rescinding the supreme court decision that equated money with free speech are a few of the

things that occupiers i think would be quite in favor of. that is just a few of the things. no, it doesn't totally solve all the problems. but i do believe that the root cause of a lot of the problems is that corporations have the same rights as people connecting that that would go a long ways toward helping things and 80% of the population once they understand that also believe it's absurd that corporations are considered to be people. it's a good place to start. >> it's okay. i would add a little bit to

that. we have the most power in areas where we have our credibility. and i think it is a strength the first to say we want to limit power that we have. and i think that's a good place for us to start a company because it just means more and that's one of the reasons in the area of corporate personhood. [inaudible] [inaudible]

[inaudible] >> and individuals that were working with. >> you mentioned voluntarily working with corporations on the issue. there is a movement working with occupied to ask what are going to pledge, that even though under the said offense united agent, they can spend money on elections. they're going to voluntarily not do that. i'm the number groups are organizing pledge campaigns. corporations across the country would try not to say in the year 2012 from a presidential election year, where we are permitted under the citizens united decisions than any, we choose not to and respect to our

corporate shareholders. [inaudible] >> i'm sure you do market research about how well your commitment to social fungibility will help you sell your products. but you can give a little bit of information about whether it makes any difference worldwide and gradual responsibility to make a difference. [inaudible conversations]

>> when you come to ben & jerry's and the takeover feet or you look this thing and you spent your whole life in marketing, where products are basically a price and a benefit in advertising is about getting one thing across. and you meet up with these guys and they say well, we found that the more we did that we believe can on the more we focus on doing what we thought was the right thing, the more resolve. that is still very much the fundamental belief. we do research to optimizing things and understand what world say. it's led by our mission statement. it was led by what we believe is the right thing to do. and through that we create a much stronger relationship and maybe not such a big group, but

the group that believe in what we believe in stay loyal for life. on the global scale, we are now in 34 countries. as we talked a little bit about the social media revolution happening out there, that's the beauty that it's really merging together. we've got 4 million fans on her face the page in a communiqué from all over the world. everybody cares what's going on. this is a pretty big thing in the u.s. the u.s. economy and the u.s. way of life in the u.s. idea. so people are pretty engaged in pretty interested. >> just quit claim from the first day of, we issued our support and solidarity level with the occupiers without any market research at all just

because our hearts felt it was the right thing to do. it wasn't done in secret, wasn't done without management support and involvement. we told them we wanted to do this. he was the letter we wanted to send. they helped make it better. and so we were supported by the whole organization that didn't go out to see whether or not it is going to sell anymore ice cream at all. we thought it was the right thing to do. i think that's the best market research we ever found. if you do something you believe in, it's usually a good thing. >> have you had a lot of negative groups -- [inaudible]

[inaudible] >> i'm not going to name any names. it is clear. it's a very, very uncomfortable situation. we are always operating on this very structured, very organized, very logical environment. i have had many business leaders going why? where you guys involved this? but i'll tell you that. once they can give me 30 seconds to explain why, i haven't had many people walk away, at least not taking about it. so you know, i'm lucky i know a lot of people obviously in a lot of people there feel very strongly about it with people as leaders. but you know, i see most companies do want should not

want to get engaged with movement and what they term politics. we think it is has to do a society in the community in which we operate and hence we have a responsibility to participate. but there has been a definite uncomfortableness in the corporate world. >> following up on john mackey -- [inaudible] have you had a chance to speak with him about this caught >> i don't think any of us have spoken with john mackey. we just don't normally talk to him. [laughter]

>> i haven't had the joy of sitting down with john mackey. that would be great, but there is a group that is one of the convenience the bring the companies together around issues. that we are really pushing everybody around us, as we've heard today, to really get your head around it. this is not about just the physical occupation. this is a movement for the 99% of people and it's going to have an impact in your business, so you better get your head around it. >> actually, more than perhaps is apparent when you see 67% of millionaires face more care to

create a fair, economic overall plan. get the leadership doesn't respect that. how can what we are to be an impact the political leadership to seem to be outstanding? >> you know, i'll get up and try to answer the question. so you know, i think if you look at the history of social movements, things take time and then diluted that in this three steps of philosophy. i've been paying attention a little bit how long it took women to get the right to vote in this country from their first occupation in seneca falls, new york. it took over 80 years or only one person who was at that original meeting was alive when

women got the right to vote in our country. so you have to start somewhere. and then called it the beginning of the beginning. i think that is where we have in this country and i think that's, you know, we are here and it's doing more and more all the time as a country and i hope others will join us as we move forward. the kinds of amendment, tip of the iceberg. that's how the whole thing i think really will take off in a row and hopefully all of the semester will be alive when there's more economic equality in this country. [inaudible] [inaudible]

[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> this second thing -- [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]

>> well, i didn't quite understand the last two parts of your question, so i'll leave that to my colleagues. but the first part, are we going to sell for 99% movement the same way we sell ice cream? that is exactly my hope. you know, i think that what the movement needs is for ben & jerry's to get that message, and the message of the 99% movement out into the whole rest of the country -- where people -- and all the sympathizers and supporters that are never going

to be near an occupation or never going to participate in, you know, quote to this type of activities. but i do believe that there are millions of people in the united states that support the occupation movement. i mean, that has been shown by pulling them that we need to find a way to involve those people. and that is what i hope we will do. >> i'll try to respond to the second parts of your question. you know, i think it's the job of everybody here to make sure we're held accountable and transparent. you know, that's a good function. we had a lot of time at ben & jerry's have had only call a social audit in which we actually bring in outside people to hold our feet to the fire come and make sure what we are saying this but we are doing. i think that is a very important

thing in a kind of goes back to the tip of the iceberg could be this giving corporate personhood now, but i think holding companies accountable and transparent and all the things going on globally is an incredible and important thing. we try to do this with their social audit and my courage you guys to hassle a slight crease he. thanks. >> okay. thank you very much. that concludes the program. though, is their ice cream? yeah, there was a rumor. did you guys cater ice cream? okay, anyway, thank you very much for your attendance today. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> the book is called "the greater journey: americans in paris." >> host: david mccullough, where did she get the title for your new book, "the greater journey"? >> guest: it happened on november 15. i somehow knew exactly when i said that that's the title, "the greater journey" as i was trained to think what is this

book about? it's about a journey, but a different kind of journey or a nation or an adventure or idc. and i kept working with these words were journey kept coming back. and then i was thinking about the voyage of these americans who ventured off to france at a time when they were all only able to go across the north atlantic by sailing ship. and it was rough and it was anything but traveling on a cruise liner. and what a journey that was. and then they got to -- they landed into the harper and then went by land to paris, which was a two-day trip by the huge cumbersome stagecoach affair.

and they would stop at ruan halfway and see for the first time a european masterpiece. and the masterpiece was the cathedral. in many of them wrote at length in very much from the heart about the impact of this one building, this one experience and that they knew that some in greater had begun. been in the old world. the old world remembers the new world. i thought that's it. the greater journey. they know then that they are on a greater journey, which will be their experience, their spiritual, mental, professional journey in the city of paris,

where they are trying to rise to the occasion to exile in a particular field, whether it was raining or muzak or sculpture or medicine because many in that day went as medical students because it is the medical capital of the world. so they're ambitious to exile and they are going against the trend because to go off to europe that was not fashionable yet and it was not part of one's broadening education yet. many of them had no money. many of them have no friends in europe, knew no one in paris and spoke not a word of the language. and yet they are brave enough to go, to embark on the greater

journey. post to this renoir painting. i first saw it had cost a lot of money to put on there. is that a copyright or do you own the paving? >> guest: that's a museum. the new bridge -- in fact it is the oldest bridge in paris is still there. looks just exactly like that. you can walk out to that very spot by the bridge, except for the wagon and horses on the bridge in the painting would be automobiles and buses now. and for many people, that bridge can't particularly in that day before the eiffel tower had been built say, that bridge was the essence of paris. and it still is. it's one of the most magnificent spots anywhere in the world because you really feel you or they are. when you're out on the bridge are looking up or down the river. you see notre dame, the louvre.

you see the institute -- national institute on the other side, which is the next bridge up the river. and one fellow, john sanderson from philadelphia said i began to breathe when i got out on that bridge. i begin to breathe this sort of free air of paris. >> a person by the name of william b. mccullough took this picture. where is it and when this is taken? >> guest: this is taken last year, last fall and october. william b. is my second son. he is a former cameraman in television and now has his own business as a builder in new england and he's a wonderful photographer. he's a wonderful father to

travel with the picture was taken just outside this are bound on the left bank, which is where many of these young americans went to study. they could go to the third one for free. they could go to the school of medicine in paris for free. the french government had a policy that all foreign students could attend the university for nothing. they had to pay for their room and board, but once they got there, there is no charge for attending university. it was the greatest university in the world. imagine a country doing that. and that -- the experience of it changed several lives dramatically. and consequently, changed our story, our history. that is what interests me particularly is what do they bring home? what did they bring back? how are we affected? how did our outlook, culture,

politics change as a consequence of the paris experience of these americans? >> , times have you been to paris? >> well, rosalie and i first win in 1861. i was in part of the kennedy administration and we recount on her way to the near east. i was doing a magazine about the arab world for the u.s. information agency. and our first time there were no jet data, so we flew over on a prop plane. took forever. we landed at night. it was said february. it was cold and raining and didn't matter the slightest to us. we were in paris after hours that night, just so thrilled to be there. and we've been going back fairly often ever since.

i never counted at the times they been to paris. probably 20 times, maybe more. but i've also done research there before because part of the john adams spoke to jason paris and the jefferson and franklin at the time in paris, a very important part of the american story. but i also was there to do work on my book about the panama canal because so much of that research material is there. and then i went back to france to follow harry truman's experiences in the army in world war i. most of my visits have been because of my work. though we have had a few times when they went strictly for pleasure. always a pleasure. >> to appear on our screen as the gallery of the louvre, which you read a lot about in the book. what is it? >> that is a painting by samuel at the morris come in the same

man who invented the telegraph, one of the most important inventions of the 19th century. and morris felt obliged to bring european culture back to america. he had gone to paris because as he said i need areas for my profession. i will become a better painter if i spend time there. they all thought out, those that went. he was one of the first. and he decided that he was going to do a painting that would show americans what the inside of the great art museum look like and what great masterpieces look like. keep in mind, there were no museums of art in the united states. this is 1832 is painted. no museums of art. you couldn't go to the museum and look at paintings anywhere in the united states. very few opinions of any kind,

unless they've been copied for private ownership were of the great masters. no most of these are renaissance paintings, italian paintings, some of which rarity part of the louvre. you see them release a right they are in the lower right-hand corner. that had been purchased by francis at first, whose portrait petitioned hangs over the door up on the right-hand side of a right at the corner. >> how big is this painting? >> opinion is six feet by nine feet. it's huge. and it was much better than any of the kind attempted by any american. no american had ever attended in anything like like this. he did earlier pmf paining in washington of the congress in session, which had never been done before.

he was always trying to break new ground. but there are 30 some paintings in this picture and he -- they are not how they are actually hung in the louvre. he went through the entire collection, over a thousand masterpieces picking up those paintings that he thought americans should know about or that he thought, these are the paintings that i truly loved, that i care about. and these are to me the treasures of the world and i want to share them with my fellow countrymen. so he arranged them as they were in his mind, but he went and copied each of these paintings as they hung in the gallery at the time. many of them were hung very high up, just as they are here. so we had to build his own special scaffolding to move from spot to spot to get up there to paint them.

now, he himself gave the key to this painting when he came back so that if he went to see it on exhibit, you can see which paintings for which, which was november, which was so forth. what he didn't give us the key to the people of the painting. there is an effect decode to this painting done by the band who virtually at the same time invented the morris code because his -- he got the idea for the telegram and the code while he was in paris, while he was in france. but the code -- every painting is a collection of choices by the author, david painter. and it is not just within the painting. nothing is in a painting by accident. it's always there because someone has thought about it.

but they are also thinking about what is not in the painting, what i'm leaving now, just as when one is writing the book or composing a symphony. you're leaving a lot out. have to. so in peopling this picture, which he has done because he wants to give scale to the room, the main room, the grand gallery in the center of a painting was the largest room in the world. so that asserted that this debt in the painting. and this is the south korea, which is a smaller rim. all exactly the same today, by the way. but he is showing you the stance of this space the scale of this public, cultural treasure open

to the public. but he is not showing you the public that really would've been my. there are no french aristocrats in the painting. there are no priests in the painting. there are no soldiers in the painting, all of whom would've been there. every time the public was president. would've been huge crowds always. this amazed american at just how many americans, but how many people came out and the people. now he does have a woman from brittany who stands at the door to the left, her back to you and her child. and that is probably to show that people -- people of all walks of life and who don't live in paris welcome here and come here. you can tell who she is but a peek of her hat, that white

catfish asserted the signature of the people. he himself stands downstage, front and center. he's the man bending over the pretty young student who's working, making a copy of the veronese e., which is over on the left and the marriage of cana. and he is showing himself not just as a painter, but as a teacher. and he is very proud of that. over in the left-hand corner is his best friend in paris, the great american author, james fenimore cooper with his wife and daughter who is also an art student coming through the door is a sculptor named green now, also a friend, an american.

there's also another friend of his who is over on the left, who is an american artist in paris. now, what this painting also doesn't show is that the tranquility of the sending, the warrants of the rat, the wants of their low in the grand gallery conveys the sense that illustrate what the world. outside those three walls is one of the most terrific, it badly scorches ever hit you paris. the great cholera pandemic of 1832. people were literally dying on the streets, dropping dead. 18,000 people died in the blasts in six months just in the city of paris. both of these men were terrified that they were going to contract

the disease and died, too. everybody who could get out of paris was leaving. the cooper who was very wealthy because his folks, lasted and he came from those who were so successful and his wife was ill and couldn't be moved. >> host: how old was he? guess who he was in his 40s. they both were in their 40s. morris who had no money and was living very modestly was staying because he was determined to finish the painting before his money ran out. cooper out of friendship damaris in to see him through this ordeal came to the louvre every afternoon to be with his pal, to sit with them, talk with him while he worked. it is an amazing story of friendship with a friend in

need. and both of these men were similar in some ways who each had a distinguished father. featuring two yale university, your college as it was then. they're each talented, each link in your, that they are vastly different in more ways -- and more important ways. and yet, this bond of friendship was like very vital as other about or known about. it's a terrific story. and i felt that not only is it an immensely important painting, an interesting painting to say the least, but it's an amazing story. i could have written a whole book just on this one painting. >> host: how long did it take you? >> guest: he worked on at just about a year. started in the fall of 1831 and finished in 1832.

it's coming to the national gallery. it's just ntl which was a thrill for everybody there because both morris and cooper went to yell and the morris papers are at yell. but the fact that it's coming to the national galleries of sperling. it deserves much more attention than it's been getting for long time. it's been in storage for years. >> who owned it? >> the terra foundation. when he finished he thought maybe he could get enough money to more than compensate him for all his work. he thought he might get somewhere it 3000, $4000 for it, which was a considerable amount of money. he couldn't sell it. finally somebody from up in cooperstown, cooper's hometown bought it for $2000. in the 1990s that sold for over $2 million, which was the

greatest amount of money ever paid for an american painting -- a painting by an american at that point. but it's a very important painting. >> host: in your book you have acknowledgments and acknowledge a lot of a lot of people including a man named mike hill and interesting thing i read was that he aamodt the magic of the uiq washburne diary. would you tell us who he was what's the diary? where is it found? >> guest: he always worked with me for 25 years now as a research assistant. he lives here outside of 10 and within easy access to not just the great treasure houses of diaries and letters here at the library at the congress and the archives and smithsonian, but also collections at places like charlottesville, virginia. and he does research for lots of other people, too.

he doesn't just work with me. >> host: who lost does he work with? >> guest: he works at it danial philbrick. he works up an entire mess. he works with michael -- was a number of people. i don't know all of his clients. but he's the best. in lhp washburn, a little background, was a congressman from illinois who was a fellow congressman or a fellow politician with abraham lincoln in a very close friend of abraham lincoln's. and when lincoln became president, it was washburn is not just anybody else who kept telling them i can, you've got to get this man, grant come a full chance to show what he can do because washburn came from

colina, illinois, which is where grant was then living before the civil war started. but would also distinguish washburn was he was one of four brothers who all served in congress and the house or the senate. all four are from different states olcott reelect it regularly. all four had distinguished careers. but with a general in the civil war. another was the governor of maine it appears to have been the first person to refer to the new political party as the republican party. and they grew up on a hardscrabble farm in western maine in utter poverty. in 10 children and all of those children were exceptional. and it is an amazing, amazing story. their mother or create, but she

felt very embarrassed that she might make it embarrassing for her children who became so distinguished if she were seen to be someone who was miseducated as she should've been. she was aware of or a woman who insisted to her children that education is everything. if they could get an education and keep learning to keep the love of learning, there's nothing they couldn't do. after the civil war was over and of course grant had distinguished himself conspicuously, washburn was exhausted and when grant became president, he first offered him the position of secretary of state. the washburn was quite ill and he declined to three days later. he said i can't do it. so he appointed washburn, the

minister or ambassador to france, to paris. washburn went over thinking this is what i'm going to need to recover my strength and have a little peace and quiet with my family. he arrived on that either the franco prussian war and in very short order, germans were marching on paris and in very short order the germans surrounded paris and paris was cut off from the world. and all the other ambassadors for all the other powers left the city, got out, except washburn. and he says, my duty is to stay here. he stayed through the entire speech, which lasted five months and he stayed through the horrific, god-awful, bloody commune that followed, were french were killing each other by the thousands in the city of paris. he not only stayed in served admirably, helping americans who

were there, but also the germans who had been living there as workers, who are innocent doing anything wrong, to get them out of the city on the request of the german government, some 20,000 have been -- he organized and arranged all of that coming special trains and so forth. the magnificent humanitarian successful mission. but through all that, he also kept a diary every day. and the diary was just commented this quick little note, did that appeared lunch with so and so. no, they are long, superbly written entries of real substance. there's nothing like them in existence. then they were unknown. and we, mike hill found them.

and he found them in a place no one would think to look in the library of congress. what had happened was that the family where somebody had taken his letters. he also wrote letters during this time and copies of the diary. the diary entries for but on separate sheets of paper and later found in an original diary. but he made letterpress copies as they were in no event like carbon copy. another group is bound in with the letters so you couldn't tell if it's at april 9th, if it was a letter, he didn't say dear fred. it just that april night. and is well mixed in with these hundreds of letters. mike go into the letters come in again they were all letters suddenly realized these were

letters. anyway to just flannery, who runs the manuscript division there inside to what is this? what is going on? jeff had never looked at it before you very closely. they suddenly realize, these are diary entries. but of course they were letterpress. where is the original? the original, it turns out, but that they maine, the family homestead up in maine. well, in writing the book i was able to draw on this experience and his attempt to save the life of the archbishop of paris, for example, who was imprisoned and could be executed by the commoners as they were known. ..

but also i think he felt a strong sense of duty to keep that diary. he would come in after a terrible day, from seeing the most heartbreaking, sometimes nauseating experiences and acts of human savagery and sit down at 1:00 in the morning and write long, injuries in superb english. the use of the command of the language, it's humbling. here was a man who never really had an education as we would call it today. but this is true of the letters and diaries i worked with through the whole book. people like charles sumner,

people like emma willard, the great champion of higher education for women or elizabeth blackwell, the first woman doctor in america. they were wonderful writers and they weren't writing writing. they were writing letters. it was a time when people believe in writing letters and writing letters were part of life, heart of what you are expected to do. is so arresting. c-span: massachusetts? >> guest: senator charles sumner, one of the most important figures of 19 century america. he was the most powerful voice for evolution in the united states senate. he was the one that was nearly beaten to death on the floor of the senate with a heavy walking stick by a southern congressmen who was offended by a speech

that sumner had given. sumner went over, sumner graduated from harvard, went to harvard law school, practiced law for three years and decided, my education is not sufficient. i want to know -- kauai want to learn so i'm going to go to paris. so he borrowed $3000 from friends and closed up his law office and went to the serb armed attending lectures and everything, geology, classics, everything. c-span: in french? >> guest: in french and he didn't. >> french so we had to learn french. a cram course and he organized himself as tutors and in a out a month was able to do it. the undaunted courage of these people is inspiring. and he attended the lectures and he kept a journal, and the

journal is fabulous. he published four volumes and in the journal, he writes about what he is listening to or who he is meeting and what he is learning and so forth that there is one entry where the speaker was sort of tedious and he found himself looking around the lecture hall, mind wandering. and he noticed that the students, other students, several hundred to 1000 people at this lecture hall, but the other students treated the black students who were there just as though they were like everybody else. dressed the same, acted the same. c-span: what you're? >> guest: this was in 1836. c-span: how old was event? >> guest: he was young. he was still in his 20s and he wrote in the diary, maybe how we

treat black people at home is the result of what we have been taught. and not part of the natural order of things. now that is almost exactly quote unquote. it was an epiphany for him. it is as if he suddenly saw the light, charlie because we know that he had been to washington on a trip before he went to paris and had seen slaves working in the field in maryland and thought they looked like that was all they were good for. had no sympathy for people in bondage, no sensible interest in african-americans at all. he came home with this new point of view, got into politics, was elected to the united states senate in his 40s, early

40s, and he became the powerhouse voice for abolition. changed by that experience in paris, so that is bringing home something that is not tangible. it is not a sculpture or a painting or a musical composition. but he brought home an idea, and a new mission. the beating left him very damaged, both psychologically and physically, and he went back to paris several times to relieve himself of these anxieties that he felt then, his inability to perform as a senator and it always helped him. he came home and carried on. i think he is one of the most admirable figures in our story. this statue stands in the public garden in boston.

i doubt that one off stony and in 1000 has any idea who he was. we all should know. c-span: your timeframe on this whole book is from when to when? >> guest: 18321900, 70 years. that is it period that hasn't been looked at much. a great deal has been written and some marvelous things have been written about jefferson and adams and franklin in paris in the 18th century, and an enormous amount is you know has been written about the 1920s and 30s at the time of scott fitzgerald and so forth. but i felt that this period was just waiting and it sure appealed to me. i have been thinking a lot about this idea, this point of view. i think that it's -- kho history as you know is much more than just politics and soldiers.

social issues. it's also medicine, science and art, music and theater and poetry and ideas, and we shouldn't lump things into categories. it's all part of the same thing, and one of the most interesting characters in this study that i have done is all over wendell holmes senior, who spent his whole life devoting his whole life, career to medical science. on the faculty for 35 years in a very prominent figure in american medicine. but he saw that there was nothing, there is no incongruity and he also wrote poetry and essays and helped to start a magazine called the "atlantic monthly." this is all part of it, and i think that is the way history ought to be taught and i think

it's the way it ought to be written. that is the way i would like to think myself more about as time goes on. in my own life, at one point i thought i wanted to be a painter. another point i thought i wanted to be an actor. another point i thought i wanted to be an architect. all along i thought i wanted to be a writer. but it's all there. it's all part of what we are about. history is human, and i was writing down massachusetts avenue one time, christmas, a number of years ago. c-span: here in washington? >> guest: on my way to work, driving. and i got to cheriton circle. it was rush hour and the traffic was terrific, and there was a traffic jam on cheriton circle.

there was general cheriton in the center of the circle, with the requisite pigeon on his head and is a wonderful statue, a beautiful statue. he is the one that did the base on the black hills. i wondered at the time, as i wondered about charles sumner in the public garden in boston, how many americans have any idea who that man is? the pool driver on the circle every day, twice a day, without any idea of who they are looking at, cheriton circle. at the same time, gershman's rhapsody in blue was playing on my car radio. and i thought, gershman is as alive at this minute for me and anybody else stuck in this traffic jam who has turned into the same station, as he was in

the 1930s. he is real, he is part of this. who is the more important character in history, phil cheriton or george gershwin? the answer of course is they both are very important, and it may be that thinking about gershman started me thinking about americans in paris and the whole part of gershwin's repertoire and the movie and gene kelly and all that and thinking about paris, paris, paris. i don't know where the idea first began. maybe back when i was in high school. c-span: one of the things you read through the book that is over 500 pages, lots of different characters, you read about central paris and today there are 11 million plus people in that whole paris area. we have got some photographs we want to put on the screen so that you can describe where the czar, where this location is.

we just throw out anything that we have of that area. the palais royale, what a ball that? i mean, how much of an area did you write about? >> guest: well right now we are looking at, it looks like the trailer he gardens and the trailer he gardens are very important in the story of all of the people that i've written about. and they are right at duluth. they lead up towards the shonta lycée. you can see it in the distance there. the general neighborhood of this book is very much the same today as it was then. that of course is the i am pei glass pyramid center of the vast courtyard of the louvre. the louvre itself is -- there you are on the sin, aren't they

wonderful bridge just for people made of iron, as it was originally. it is a favorite place to gather as to walk along the caves by the river today still. the palais royale, that looks like the -- i guess it is, it's hard for me to see. i think that if i were to walk with you, brian, round that section of paris, i could show you an amazing number of places that are just the same as they were then, where particularly the people all were in the state. rosalie and i stayed in the hotel which was at the foot of

the avenue of the opera. if you have a picture of the avenue of the opera, it was in the book, in the back of the book. it was taken from what was called the -- room which is where pizarro did a number of his paintings and looking straight up the avenue towards the upper house. that looks exactly the same today as then. this of course is looking at the eiffel tower which was built in 1889 and the 1889 world's fair. the hotel duluth which is still there, is where moore said his family stayed when they came back later on. it's where mark twain stayed. at at emanuel -- where a manual hawthorne state. history is everywhere in paris and that is one of the things that so impressed the people when they went over. keep in mind that everything here was still relatively new.

independence hall wasn't even 100 years old. we think of it as an historical building. it with even 100 years old and when they got to a cathedral, the great gothic cathedral that was built before columbus ever sailed, that to them was overwhelming experiences in itself. sumner called it trustees of age. there is the root deliver lay with the louvre on the left. c-span: do you have the painting in the book? >> guest: no i don't have the painting. it is not a painting. it's an engraving and it's part of a collection i have, this one right here. if you could bring up that picture, on the very back page, in the end sheets of the book. the opening and cheetahs of the rude briefly and the back of the sheet is of the avenue of the

opera looking up. no, the end sheets. there you go. now that picture, if he took the wagons and horses out and put automobiles in, that view from the motel live is the cusack same today. over prayer by the fountain is a taxi stand and rosalie and i stayed in the hotel luke then this is very close to the view we had from the window of the room we had been getting. now turn it to the opposite end of the book, the friend and and that is the -- and that is about 1900. that looks exactly the same today too. with the stores and the colonnade on the left. that is the trailer regarding on the right and part of the louvre

on the right, the building rising up on the right. now that picture and the one that is that the end sheet of the book are postcards that my mother's parents brought back from paris after a visit there about 1970. the photographs are probably taken about 1900, and those postcards were up in our attic and an album. we saved all the postcards and they are just as sharp as you can see, just as sharp as if they had been taken yesterday. and they are over 100 years old. my mother was seven years old so she remember some of it, so i heard some of the stories as a child. she didn't remember an awful lot. c-span: in the book you bring your family and a lot. tim lawson is your son-in-law, dori is your daughter who actually represents you. >> guest: you she does in my

speaking schedules. tim is a painter, very good painter. c-span: what did he do? >> guest: he went with me for example, he went out with me to see this painting in the gallery of the louvre when it was in storage in chicago and he went with me to see the saint gardens home in cornish new hampshire. he went with me to the metropolitan. he went with me to, often, to the museum particularly the fine arts in boston to look at the -- c-span: you said your daughter alyssa read everything. >> guest: i marshaled the whole team as it were and my son david jr. teaches english in high school and he went over all of my grandma and push a wish and. and rosalie, my editor-in-chief,

i read everything or she reads everything allowed to me. i want to hear it. i write from the air, try to write from the ear as well as the i. it is what all the great writers i have admired so much of my life did. c-span: what book is this for you? what number? >> guest: this is number nine. c-span: are you going to do another book? >> guest: i don't know. c-span: the last time we talked about this business was 2005 up in the knox home, and you said you had 12 ideas for a book and this is the book that came out of those 12 ideas. do you have another list of 12? >> guest: it's up to 27 now. [laughter] c-span: what was this experience like writing this book, compared to the others? >> guest: i thought a good deal about that because it has been different and i have hugely enjoyed every subject i have

ever undertaken, except the one and i stop the project after a couple of months. i knew it wasn't right for me. it was about picasso. it was a long time ago. so i have not in any way try to say that the previous work has been less than i would have wished. it's been more than i would have wished in every case. but i have had a better time writing this book than anything i have ever done. i think in part because so much of it is about subjects that really matter to me, that it mattered to me all my life. it is what i love. not that i don't love history in the usual sense, love politics, american history of all kinds, but to be able to write about

people like augusta saint gardens sculpture, to write about louis gotts jock, the new orleans musician who was so brilliant as a pianist. c-span: they all went to paris. >> guest: they all went to paris. i think in some ways architecture may be our most important art form because we live in it. it shapes us and paris really is about architecture. there is no natural splendor there. there is no covered mountain range in the distance, no beautiful shoreline on the sea. the river is there but rivers are in lots of cities. it is what people have built and

what they have put their heart and soul into. it's not just what is in those museums. it's the museums themselves, and the idea there was no school of architecture in america, none. so these people who went over, these young men that almost all at that time like richard morse hunt, like louis sullivan, h. h. richardson, who changed the look of our cities, change the look of america. they all went there to study architecture, came back different from what they had been. ugoda boston, trinity church on one side, h. h. richardson, look across the square, boston public library via charles the kids in. very similar in many ways to

paris. and he said so. they were taking, you use the word earlier, inspiration, inspiration from paris. and again and again brian, they all wrote that they wanted to bring something home to make things better here. they wanted, they were doing something they felt was a service to their country, not just to their own ambitions. c-span: you have not mention george haley and i'm going to put up here on our screen the painting that you write about, zero websters reply to haynes. who was george healey and how long did he spend? >> guest: george george healey is to me a great american story. george healey was an irish boy who grew up in the streets of boston, no money, no education, but talent to paint and draw. and he was told, you are good.

you could go all the way. but he knew, he had to go train with somebody. there was nobody to train with, no art school. so, without any money, simply being able to say, no knowledge of french, knowing no one in paris, he went to paris, and he became the most sought after and in many ways the most accomplished portrait painter, american portrait painter, in the 19th century. there are seven of his paintings at the white house. there are 17 of his paintings in the national portrait gallery. his paintings are in most every gallery, major gallery in the united states. he was phenomenal. but also come this painting right here is the biggest single work he ever did by far. i can't remember the dimensions but they are enormous.

covers the whole back wall behind the stage at faneuil hall in boston, one of the most historic buildings of the united states and united states and this is websters reply to aim, the famous moment in congress and daniel webster is on the right and there are all these other characters that are portrayed their that are from actual studies, most all of them, of faces that he did at the time. so it is an accurate, historic document. he has also put a few people in there that were not present when webster delivered his great speech, because he wanted to include them. and it was painted in paris. it cost him almost two years of his work, of his life, his professional life. much like morrissey got scarcely

what he hoped he would be recompensed for it. i think it was $2000. he said it didn't matter. he felt he had recorded something that made a contribution, not just to the art of portraiture but to his country. c-span: how long did it take you to write this? >> guest: four years. c-span: where did you do most of the writing? >> guest: well i did a lot of the writing on martha's vineyard where we lived and i did a lot of the writing and maine and we spent a good time here. i did some of it when we were traveling. and i spent a spend a great deal of time in washington, boston, new york, looking at paintings, looking at architecture and of course doing research with

original documents, regional letters and documents. c-span: the tour begins on may 25. you have got framingham massachusetts, washington d.c., hay adams author series, politics and prose here, coughlin concert hall in new york city on june 6, june 8 world's fair council dallas museum of art, june 11 heinz history center in your hometown of pittsburgh, chicago public library, june 14, is it wise that? c-span: y. z. a minnesota. why there? >> guest: it's outside minneapolis because a wonderful friend of mine, bill water, who is very active in the national park foundation has organized an event and wants me to come and do it. c-span: philadelphia and then harvard bookstore and the tours i have listed is closed on later on in june at portsmouth new hampshire.

how do you feel about this? >> guest: i love it. c-span: why? >> guest: i like to meet the people they read my work. i like to see what is going on in these different places. i enjoy talking to audiences. and particularly audiences that are a mixture of generations, and i guess it's the irish in me. c-span: maybe i missed it there, but you didn't answer my question about whether you are going to do another book. >> guest: no, i didn't. [laughter] c-span: what is your thinking? ..

>> if i knew about it, i wouldn't want foe -- to write the book, because to me, the pull is the adventure of it, learning. i think about how much i'm going to learn by taking on this subject, and i don't want to be surprised -- i want to make discoveries, not just discoveries of some collection of letters in some place you

don't expect to find them, but make the discovery of suddenly, oh, i get it, that's how it works or what's who did that. that, to me, is -- the work is the reward. c-span: the name of the book is the greater journey, americans in paris. our guest is david mccouulough. >> guest: thank yous, brian, i love to have a conversation with you, and i might write another book for the chance to come back just to talk about it. c-span: it's a deal. [laughter] ♪ ♪ >> for it dvd copy of this program, call 1 happen 877-662-7726. for free transcripts or give comments about this program,

visit us at q&a.org, and q&a programs are also available as c-span podcasts. ♪ ♪ >> this week on "q&a" part two and the book, a greater journey, americans in paris, the story of some americans who went to paris in 1830 and 1900 to further their training and careers. c-span: david mccullough, author of the greater journey, americans in paris in the 1800s. of all the people you wrote about in the book, who would you

not want to meet and talk with because of what you learnedded about them? >> guest: i can't think of one. i'll tell you why. this book was different for me in form than anything i've ever done because if you're writing a biography or writing the history of an event on an accomplishment, there is a certain obvious track, a certain structure that is built into the subject, and you're obligated to respect that, and cover it, write about it in all fairness to your reader. the cast of characters is

already ordained. with this book, i could cast the book myself. i would pick the people that i wanted to write about. probably 12 major characters in this book, probably 20-some people overall who appear, americans, but that's a fraction of the number that went to paris during this 70-year period that i'm covering; so in organizing the book, organizing my approach to the subject, i was, in many ways, like a casting director. they would come in, show me what they could do, tell me their story, and i'd say don't call me. i'll call you in effect, and so i'm picking the people that i

want to keep company with for four years, and i didn't pick anyone that i wasn't interested in or that i thought would be uninteresting in. there's none of them i wouldn't give a great deal to meet, to talk to. c-span: of all the characters in the book, which one has the most to see in the united states, in other words a home or a museum where you can see their work or life? >> guest: agusta saint gardens, the sculpture. c-span: what did he do? >> guest: in my opinion and that of others, the greatest american sculpture -- sculptor in all american history, and his famous art is in boston, the first all black

regimen in the union army, which at last -- most of them were killed, including colonel shaw in charlestown. it is the first piece of american art to portray black americans, african-americans as heros. it's spectacular. there's a copy of it in the national gallery, a dupe -- duplicate. c-span: here? >> guest: yes. there's another in rock creek cemetery, which was for the wife of henry adams, which is very mysterious work which remains constantly of interest because of its mystery. there's the sherman statue in

new york city. it's the statue of the german with the goddess of victory before him. it's guilded and a great piece, i think one the greatest in the country, and then there's the memorial in madison square in new york city. again, a superb piece, and, again, done in paris as was the shemman statue, and then there's his home, a national park site in cornish, new hampshire where you can see about everything he's done. he did coins, all kinds of things. he's conspicuous. john's paintings are in most museums and mary's, and i would say that james cooper's novels

are everywhere, read in schools and they are important. c-span: is the town named after him? >> guest: no, his father. his father founded the town, and he grew up there. c-span: back to john singer sergeant for a moment because you talk about him in here. >> guest: there he is. there he is. c-span: what was his age? >> guest: he was an american prodigy. he was -- he was a gifted, notably, astonishingly gifted painter when he was still 18 -- yet 18. he painted several of his major masterpieces when he was still in his 20s. his madam x as its known, his daughters of edward boyt, his -- all done in paris -- excuse me,

and all done while he was still in his 20s. there's madam. she was also an american, most people didn't really that living in paris, and this painting was, at the time, considered scandalous because of her pose, her low cut evening attire. there he is, he's a young man standing in his studio with the portrait behind him. c-span: who was mary casset? >> guest: the young woman from pennsylvania who decided she was not just going to be a woman who paints, but she was going to be a painter. that's her self-portrait, a beautiful water color self-portrait, and he became the only american artist who was accepted by and taken in by the

impressionists as one of them in paris. this is a painting of her mother. reading the newspaper. this was the first of her impressionist paintings, and her paintings are largely, almost entirely about women. women seen in private life, in the security of the home or the garden, doing private things, knitting, reading, having tea, and their hold on the viewer has been consistent for well over 100 years, and her importance as a master, as a genius of american art only increases with time. she was a brave woman. she went to europe pursuing a career seriously as no one ever

had, no american woman, and bounced -- bound to excel, and she certainly did, and having much of her life looking after her parents whom she lived with in paris, most of her adult life -- excuse me -- c-span: not which one, but who are the ones with the most interesting personal story, the relationships of their wives, children and all of that, and when they were in paris? >> guest: well, i think in many ways st. gardens is the most interesting story. an immigrant shoe maker in new york, put to work at 13 years old, cutting cameos, which was an art form or craft form of real consequence then, wearing cameos was popular with women and men, and he learned the art

of cameo cutting, and also demonstrated he had the ability of an artist and sculptor beyond that, and his shoe maker father helped to pay for him to go take some art courses at cooper union in new york, one of the first art schools, this is after the civil war when things had changed in the united states as far as the availability of training in art, and he went off the paris at age 19 to become a sculptor. he was the first american admitted to the bowes arts, and to be there was like a coo, like getting into one of the greatest universities today. c-span: what is the arts? >> it's on the left bank, still there, same place where he went, admitted as a student in sculptor, and he studied in

paris up to the time of the outbreak of the franoc oppression war where he then went to italy to continue studying, and then he came back in the 1870s for another three years by which point he was married, and his wife was a painter. they met when he was studying painting in italy, and her story is, and their story of their marriage is extraordinary. i was able to tell that story because her letters, which number more than 200 have all survived, and they are all in the library at dartmouth college, near cornish, the home they finally established on the connecticut river in new hampshire. c-span: did you go there? >> guest: oh, yes. both to work with the letters at dartmouth, and to the site at cornish. c-span: how many -- you know you

said it, you used information from over 30 different institutions. how many different places did you physically go? >> guest: just about all of them. harvard, yale, collections in boston, collections in new york, collections here in washington. c-span: you hit chicago. >> guest: chicago, and i love that. i love that part of it. c-span: how many times did you go to paris in the middle of writing this? >> guest: at least once a year, so four times. we'd stay about two weeks or so. the research was almost all here, brian, because the letters are here. the diaries are here. the letters were written to people back home. the diaries were brought home. the diaries are accessible in this country, and as is of

utmost importance, a newspaper which was published in paris in english, and the library of congress has the complete set of all of those newspapers. they are invaluable, and the paper is still a book shop in paris. c-span: isn't he italian? >> guest: italian from england who started the newspaper. it was not an american paper, but in english language for england, and every american read it. c-span: how much of that did you read? >> guest: well, an enormous amount. i would guess that what goes into a book is one-twentieth of what has been read. i read -- i don't know how to

quantify -- hundreds of pages of typewritten pages. c-span: here in town, library of congress? >> guest: well, i do it at the library of congress with mike who works with me or he makes transcriptions of it from the library of congress, particularly transcriptions of letters because he's much better at writing handwriting than i am, and very fast on the computer typing it up, so he will often spend dies at the library of congress or the archives transcribing these newspaper accounts or the letters, but then i have to go through them and decide if i want this or how to use that or i need more of such and such, and there were times when we both went together to look at things. i -- i -- i couldn't do what i

do without him, his help, in that to come, to leave home, to come to washington or to go to philadelphia or wherever these different collections might be time after time after time and sit and transcribe would -- my book probably would have taken me seven years instead of four. i'm at a stage now where if he would tell me he didn't want to do it anymore, i wouldn't write that kind of book, and just write something more personal and more accessible from my own collections and recollections. c-span: i'll ask you a question, you probably don't want to answer, but i'll ask anyway. you wrote ten books -- >> guest: nine. c-span: nine books. how do you think this book is going to do? i mean, you -- >> guest: i don't mind answering that at all because i don't know.

i've never know how any book would do. c-span: what was your biggest? >> guest: john adams. c-span: second best? >> guest: truman i'd guess, well, i'm not sure. 1776 might be. i've never saturday down and thought what -- how will this sell or what do the people want to read about now? that doesn't -- you can't do that. c-span: what about your publisher though? >> guest: well, they never said no to me. whatever i want to do, they've said fine. i may have told you this story before, but we're old friends, you got to hear some of these stories more than once; right? [laughter] i was working on my second book, and i went to a party one night, and we were introduced to the host, a woman from washington, who was a somebody or at least

she thought so, and i was introduced -- this is david mccullough writing a book about the book lin bridge, and she said, who in the world would ever want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge. well, i was young. i was in my early 30s, and i was just launching into my second book, and i was really -- i really was mad that she'd said that, and on the way home, i was practically punching the dash board as i was driving the car, and before we got home, i suddenly thought, that's a perfectly good question. who in the world would want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge? what's your answer, mccullough? my answer was i would. i want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge. the book that i want to read about the brooklyn bridge doesn't exist.

i'll write it so i can great it, and that, in many ways, is what i've been doing with all the books. i want to read about john adams. i want to know about john adams. whether the great reading public does, i have no idea, and i've had a publisher who believed in what i was doing and believed in my books, and i've never had a different publisher, and all my books are still in print, and that means more to me more than anything else about my writing life. c-span: have you have different editors? >> guest: i have, three. c-span: what role do they play? you have so many read it. >> guest: it's like life. it depends on the personality of the editor. each contributes substantially in their own way, and i've very fond of the people at my publishers.

a lot of authors don't feel that way, but i am. the reason i stay with simon and schuster is i'm so found of the -- fond of the people i work with. i've had the same copy editor since i published my first book more than 40 years ago. still there. wonderful, wonderful woman. wonderful human being as well as a terrific copy editor. c-span: well, have you changed the way you write and what you write on and what about this book? you said you wrote some of it on martha's vineyard, some in maine, and some while you travel. sounds like a computer now? >> guest: no, no. i work on a manual typewriter. c-span: still? take it with you? >> guest: take it with me. if it can't go, i'm not going to write. when i decided i was going to try to write a book in 1965, we were living in white plains new york. i was working in new york as an editor and writer at american

heritage magazine. i thought, well, i'm going to -- i did my writing at the office, on the job. if i'm -- i had a portable typewriter, but if i'm going to undertake a book, i need a real typewriter. i bought a secondhand royal typewriter, high-rise, black, the kind with the little glass covers of the letters, the dished letter, and i probably paid $50 for it, maybe less. i've written everything i have written since -- everything on that typewriter, and there's nothing wrong with it. it is a magnificent example of superb american manufacturing. nothing wrong with it at all. it probably has 975 thoirks miles -- 975,000 miles on it, and i have to change the ribbons obviously,

and my children, my friends, others say to me, don't you realize how much faster you could go if you use the computer. well, of course, i could go faster. i don't want to go faster. if anything, i want to go more slowly. i don't think all that fast, and i love the idea of a key coming up and printing a letter. i understand that. i would be horrified that to think as i was working that if i pressed the wrong button it was going to sapp out two -- zap out two or three weeks of work. i'm technology challenged, i guess, is the explanation, and sometimes i wonder maybe it's writing the books, the typewriter. c-span: what do you do about the information that you've gathered, the references, and all of that, and the diaries. how do you do that when you travel? is that on a computer?

>> guest: no, it's in file folderrings, and i take -- folders, and i take it with me. i take the material for the chapter i work on. i put it in the car, the back, the trunk, just along with the typewriter, and away we go, and i'm writing all the time. i'm writing when i'm flying in a plane. i'm thinking about it. people often say to me, and a perfectly good question, how much of your time do you spend writing and doing research? great question. no one ever says how much of your time do you spend thinking? that's probably the most important part of it. just thinking about it. thinking what you've read, what you need to reread, what you need to think more about, putting things out literally on the table and looking at them, putting a painting, a reproduction of a painting and

really looking at that painting and thinking about that painting or the setting, where things happened is very important to me. this whole book that i've just written is set in paris, where it's happening, and another book i wrote was set in brooklyn. another was set in panama. much of several books have been set here in washington. the -- i believe that the setting has great effect on what the way things happened, the way things went. the setting is part of history, just as the who is part of the why, and so i really have to soak up the setting, so when we went to paris, i went there to walk the walk.

i went there to see it in the winter when it's awful and damp and cold and gray in the summer and spring and in the fall. i went to -- if i read something that took him 20 minutes to walk from his participant to his -- apartment to his studio, i went over and made the walk from his apartment to the studio to see if that was right. i want to be out on the walk the way others were and feel what they felt. c-span: that's a bridge? >> guest: yeah, over the heart of the city is the new bridge, in fact, it's the oldest bridge in paris, this 17th century. the whole -- i think listening, smelling, feeling what the chair

feels like, rubbing your hands on the surface of the cathedral sculpture, on the exterior, all of that is part of getting closer to it. i'm always trying to get closer to those people, closer to that place, closer to that time, and asking questions. i do a lot of -- spend a lot of time with studentings, lecturing or doing visiting, occasions at universities and colleges, and there's -- they're so programmed, so responsible for being able to answer questions that i wonder sometimes how much experience -- how much time they've spent asking questions. that's how you find things out.

ask a lot of people. people have a feeling that what i do is -- and others do of similar kinds of work -- that it's a solitary endeavor. not at all. i'm with people all the time, talking to people, working with librarians, working with archivists, and when i was writing, i spent part of better one day with a sculpture -- sculptor who works with large pieces, and how it's done and what's hard, what's easy, what's chancey, what's dangerous? the same thing with painters or politicians or -- i remember reading once, for example, that woodrow wilson, when he was a historian scholar, wrote a book,

very famous book, an important book about congress. never set foot in congress once the whole time he was working on the book. you got to go and watch how it's done, listen to it, get a sense of the timing and the times when people are not doing anything much, the dead time as it were in their lives and how do they handle that? i love reading about -- [inaudible] so restless sitting in congress, he couldn't stand to listen to the other people talk, and he'd rattle through pages at his desk or visit with people in the gallery. he just got so an ncy that he couldn't cope with it. c-span: what do you plan to do with the typewriter?

where will you put the david mccullough papers? >> guest: i don't know. i'd like to think that yale would be interested in the papers. the typewriter, that may become an heirloom in the mccullough family. c-span: people want to see your -- >> guest: yeah. the typewriter is part of the process for me. it's like driving an old car you have for years. c-span: what about the little house? >> guest: oh, yeah, right. i don't know. i don't think about that, brian, but thank you for asking. c-span: maybe i'll get an answer someday from you. in this book, a couple people you write about are french, more than a couple, but there's a big painting on one page, and also

everybody else was going there, put everything into context. >> reporter: he was the last living -- >> guest: he was the last living hero as people were going to paris, and several of them, e ma, samuel f. morris and james cooper were all involved with the famous visit to the united states in 1826 --1824, and they were going in part to paris because they wanted to see him again while he was alive, and that painting is by mar rise, and it's a great painting, large, very important painting, and he adored these people spending a great amount of time with all of them, and he was terribly symbolic, important to

them, and there's a big painting of him in the house of representatives. how important was he to this country? he was very important. the symbolism of a wealthy aristocrat from france coming to join in the fight of soldiering on with our army. he was very symbolic of the part that france played in our revolutionary war. it was not that they just sent an army here, but that they really bankrolled the cost of the war. they loaned the money it took to carry the war through to completion and victory on our part. in fact, the army at the surrender at yark town was

larger than the or hi at washington. most americans don't realize that. we're sitting here today in a city designed by a frenchman. the french engineer architect, and great gateway of the country in new york, the statue of liberty was a gift from france, a sculpture, bartholdi, and there were towns and colleges with french names. we don't pronounce them the way they do, but the influence of france on this country is far greater than what most americans appreciate. we doubled the size of the country -- more than doubled the size of the country with the louisiana purchase, which, chsk, was a decision made by that polian.

c-span: you write this -- >> guest: excuse me, jericho. it was a painting that simply froze, captivated, enthralled americans first arriving at the lourve as it still does, and one who was swept away by it and wrote very passionately about it was harriet t beecher stowe, and she was in paris, and that had a very profound effect on her. c-span: what did she did in paris, and how long was she there? >> guest: primarily to hide from the publicity that surrounded her from the publication of "uncle tom's cabin," and she was on tour in europe where it became a best

seller, and it was not published in french yet, and so when she got to paris, she could go anywhere without causing any stir, and she spent a lot of time at the louvre, a lot of time walking the city, wrote about the experience, started studying french, came back again another time, and it's fascinating how paris affected her, and what it did, she said, it emphasized her -- how much beauty had been denied her in her puritan upbringing in new england, and that beauty suspect just something you see that someone else created, but the beauty is in you and the love of beauty is part of being human, and it's by being an in place where beauty is so respected and

so considered such an important part of life that you suddenly discover how much of that love and that respect is in you, part of human nature. c-span: your book on john adams ended up as a series on hbo. >> guest: yes. c-span: is there a series in this book? >> guest: well, the book has not been talked about with any serious intent that i know of yet. c-span: is there a story there? >> guest: oh, i think so. brian, i could have wrote a whole book on at least seven of the chapters in this 14-chapter book. c-span: give us an idea of which seven? >> guest: the story of the medical students, which in many ways for me was the most absorbs and exciting research for the whole book, what those young people went through, how much they learned about medicine that they could never have learned

here, how far behind medicine in the united states was far behind and why it was far behind, and the marathon, the gauntlet that intellectual gauntlet they had to run in order to keep pace with the doctors they studied with. c-span: two, give us a second one. >> guest: the cooper morris story drks james cooper, samuel morris and the painting the louvre during the horrendous cholera epidemic and the friendship that resulted as a consequence. c-span: we have a lot of print history around eli washburne, but what about the five republics, and how many

republics were there in the middle of your seven years you wrote about? you remember? >> guest: i don't understand the question. c-span: there's five french republics, and i have the dates of them because we're in the fifth republic now -- >> guest: i think there were two. c-span: between -- first is between 1792 and 1804, and the second is the empire -- i mean, you get lost. >> guest: yes. c-span: in the story. >> guest: yes. c-span: the second republic was 48-52. the third was 1870 to 1940. >> guest: yes, those are the three. c-span: what happened in france in the 1800s? what was the overall story of what went on in that country? >> guest: well, you went from a king, he was a so-called citizen king, louis phillip, and

he was ran out by an uprising and escaped with his wife and lived out his life in england. he's a very interesting man in part because he spent a good time here in the united states when he was in exile from france because of the french revolution. he had an aristocratic lineage although he fought in the revolutions as a solder for the revolution. he came to the united states, sailed down the ohio river all the way down the mississippi with his brother. he was young, still in his 20s, was a guest of washington, and he worked for awhile as a waiter in a restaurant that is still in business in boston, the union oyster house, so when the

americans show up there in the 1840s, those native americans were astonished to hear him say he'd been out on the great plains, spent time with their tribes, and he could speak some of their language, and he really seemed more of the western -- what was then the wild west than all but very few americans had, and from the point of view from the mens who came to paris, louis was a wonderful king, and the kind of king who would take a walk in the afternoon. it was a quasi republic with a monarchy, but it didn't last -- lasted about 10 years, and then came in another first republic, and then after that came the napolian the third who called hymn, making himself the

emperor, and that led to the whole complete rebuilding of paris under napolian the third, and the paris we see today is the paris that he and his chief officer in charge of the reconstruction of paris, george hausman, that's the paris we know today with the grand boulevards, the opening up the avenues, the planning of all the trees, the expansion and so forth. it was all done during that napolian iii epic. then came another revolution or came the oppression war, and after the war, another regime took charge, which was in effect the french civil war where they slaughtered each other in the

most atrocious fashion irrespective of men, women, children, just a hideous blood bath in paris, and americans, many of them, were witness to this, and sometimes to their detriment and other times just as part of the adventure of that experience in their life. one of the most admirable of all is a young woman named mary putnam, the first american woman to get a medical degree who refused to leave paris, a dangerous and difficult time to be there, people were starving to death, and because she was determined she was going to get her degree, and she came back to become one of the leading figures in american medicine. c-span: how many of the

americans you wrote about died in paris? >> guest: relatively few. some died there because they decided they would stay. mary casset died in france. she never really came home to live. by and large, they all went home. george lived a very long life and was still painting and still very actively in demand as a portrait painter late in life, but he knew his days were numbered, and he wanted to die at home, so he came back and settled in chicago. c-span: we mentioned a couple of the books you could write off of a chapter. can you think of another one? >> guest: yes, i could write a book about agusta saint-gaudens easily. c-span: he was gust, and she was gusty?

>> guest: she was a cousin of winslow homer, the famous american painter. there was a chapter i wouldn't enjoy writing, but i think the chapter that is about cassatt i would enjoy because there you have contrasting personalities, geniuses painting in paris at exactly the same time, living in an entirely different world within the world of paris. paris, like all great cities, has many worlds within the world of paris, and mary and john singer lived worlds apart, but yet almost neighbors in the same city, and they both were painting what would prove to be american masterpieceses that was

more than standing the test of time. it would become more important with time. c-span: one of the people you talk about is benjamin rush's son, richard rush. where did he come from? >> guest: son. son of the famous doctor, and he had a distinguished career as a diplomat, and he was assigned to be our minister to paris this o period earlier, and rush is interesting because he decided to recognize the new republic of france after the overthrow of louis. when communication between america and france was still a

month at best, it -- it would come by ship, mr. morris had not invented the telegraph yet, and he decided on his own to recognize the new government of france, not waiting for the government in washington to tell them that's what he should do. a very brave decision to say the least, and a very important decision which was enormously welcomed news and applauded, not just in paris by the new government, but in washington as well. c-span: how did they communicate in those days? i know things changed from the 30s -- >> guest: by letter. c-span: by letter. how long did that take? >> guest: a month at best. c-span: was there a telegraph near the end of the 1800s. >> guest: yes, the atlantic cable was laid and they could communicate directly. c-span: what did that change? >> guest: everything, instant

information. the oppression war, for example, people in cincinnati or here in washington were reading reports from the front two or three days after the report was written, and if there was a delay, it was just getting the message to the nearest telegraph center where it could be put on the cable and sent here. c-span: did any of the people die in, you know, coming across the ocean? >> guest: well, many people did die coming across the ocean. the only one who did of note was margaret fuller, a very gifted young woman, writer, important american writer, an important american person, and she dieded on a return trip. ship went downright off of -- within view of the beaches of long island. c-span: i want to ask you, never

asked you this before, but do you have a first sentence in the book -- i'll read it. "they spoke of it then as the dream of a lifetime, and for many, for all the difficulties and set backs encountered, it was to be one of the best times ever." how long did you think that sentence through, and when did you write it? >> guest: i rewrote much of the first chapter, two or three years after i wrote it the first time because as has been my experience with all my books, you know much more by the time you get to the end of the book than you did in the beginning, and the first page or page and a half of any book is crucial. it's setting the direction. you're -- you're giving the

audience the opening theme of your symphony or whatever it is, and i wanted to make it clear in the first pages of the book that these people were not going over to paris because it was the fashionable thing to do or because they were on a diplomatic mission assigned to a particular task or because they were in somebody's employment and they were being sent by the remmington arms company or whatever. they were going -- and they were not going for power or for money. they were going out of ambition to axel in their --

excel in their work. this week is really about joy and the test of one's purpose in life that work can pose. these -- these medical students who really were put to the test like very few young men i've ever written about would later refer to it as the happiest time of their life, and yet it was the most difficult time of their life, and i think there's something very important in that truth, something important we all -- the ease and pleasure are not necessarily synonymous, and i didn't find one single example of any of those young people, male or female who went to study medicine-under-par the most

difficult -- medicine under the most difficult positions, particularly the language barrier in the beginning, not one of them who quit said this is not for me or can't take this and went home. there may have been, but i never found one that did, and all of them later on would talk about that time in paris. the other thing i love is that henry, one of the doctors who went over to study in paris, he 4 a son years later who was leaving to go abroad to study medicine, and he said to the son, remember what you learn over there of value to your career and your services as a doctor is not just what you learn in medical school, but it's what you'll learn by the culture that's around you in paris. he said i think i've probably done more good for some of my patients by telling them stories about some of my discoveries and how much i learned in various

fields of interest beyond medicine than all the pills and tonics i poured down their throats, that it's the -- there's this are you treating the disease or are you treating the patient? still a very crucial concern to the education of medical students today, and among physicians today. this realization that must be essential to the outlook of a doctor, that that person you're treating is a human being, and you're not just curing tuberculosis or a trick knee. you're tending a human being, and you have to understand

human -- the hum condition and have an appreciation for the human qn as well as understanding medicine. c-span: by the way, did you read the audio book? >> guest: i read the first chart because i did not have time to do the whole book. there's a schedule i had at that particular juncture of when these things are done. i read the first chapter. i read the chapter and was very pleased to be asked to read the first chapter because that's the chapter that the mission is stated. c-span: who read the rest of it? >> guest: ed herman who is superb. c-span: all right. this is the last part of your book, i mean, other than the acknowledgements. you have a quote, "she did the talking, her mind galloped along, what abysses and

reenforcements of courage and life and enthusiasm that still lay hidden inside that frail body." why end with that? >> guest: that's the love of the -- of the level that sometimes can be reached in art, music, ideas, by some people if they really work at it. the quote that i feel sets the emblem for the book is the quote in the beginning. c-span: let me get -- i read it earlier at the very beginning i assume. this book is -- >> guest: it's another one of

the people who wrote superbly, who never went to school. >> caller: "we deal with -- c-span: we deal with problems with molders, contractors, stoneman, trucks, rubbish, plasterers, and whatnot else all while trying to soar into the blue." >> guest: yes. sculptors are different from painters, and they work in the studio and they have a canvas, palette, easels, and sculptors have workshops, people with sacks of plaster. i love the word "rubbish". there's junk around. you have all of this practical kind of necessities of the trade to deal with as is true in everybody's work.

all the while trying to soar into the blue, to reach that level, that oh, there it is that happens in painting, music, or oratory, and it happens to the audience when they listen to it. to rise beyond the limitations of mortality and do something that will speak to the human heart of your -- with your fellow men and women, but also to the -- for generations to come. historians write history. biographers write biography. thank goodness. that's part of it. by doing that, they are participating in history and

biography. painters, sculptors are also writing history. you want to have a feeling about general sherman, go look at the statue of sherman on horseback at the entrance of central park and look at his face. it's the face of a madman. sherman is the one who says all war is moon shine and hell. he's looked into the face of hell in his march from atlanta to the sea. he said it, but saint-gaudens says it in forms, not word, in three dimensional form, in a way that you never forget once you know to look at that face. he's been led by victory. victory's a beautiful young

woman goddess with wings. the model for that young woman is an african-american. she's the goddess of victory. she's not glowing with the joy of triumph. she looks dazed, in a trance of some kind. again, there's a mystery about it. that scroll -- that sculpture is starting with and working with heavy steel super structures inside the statue and iron -- taking it off to the bronze to have it cast an bronzed, shipping it all to america, shipping it up to the studio in new hampshire where it was all guilded and then brought

down. he had to deal with all kinds of complicated, difficult practical problems and employees that numbered 15 at a time, all the time trying to soar into the blue. that's the human condition it seems to me. c-span: david mccullough author of the greater journey: americans in paris. >> guest: oh, brian, thank you very much. what a joy. ♪ ♪ >> for a dvd copy of the program call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or submit comments about the program, visit us at q&a.org, and