from the british government's inquiry into allegations of phone hacking by newspaper reporters have questioned several alleged victims of unethical journalistic practices. in her testimony, j.k rowling

come author of the harry potter books, spoke about her relationship with the press and how much hurt manuscript's was stolen. we will also hear from an editor with a now-defunct new speaker news of the world which has been accused of hiring private investigators to hack into celebrities laws mail and e-mail accounts. this is three in a half hours. >> the next witness please. >> [inaudible] can you confirm your full name?

>> j.k rowling. >> i'm going to invite you to give your statement and it runs over 33 pages and at the end of it you will see i hope your name and signature, date which is the second of november and the usual statements. this is your evidence. thank you. ms. rowling, you may have heard me say to other witnesses that i'm very grateful to them for giving up their time and putting the effort into volunteering evidence. i appreciate that he will be talking about things which i very clearly understand you wish to remain private, and by talking about them you are to some extent blowing on that

wish. i understand that, but i hope you do realize the importance of what i'm trying to do. if you want a break at any stage you are entitled to say five minutes please and i appreciate it is a very unusual environment. thank you. >> your witness doesn't need any introduction. we know your books published over the tenure period the last book in 2007. but can i move now to paragraph three of your witness statement? you make it clear you have no personal vendetta against the press but what are your views about the freedom of press? >> i believe very strongly and freedom of the press and freedom of expression and i would like to make it clear from the start that i think that there is

alongside the kind of journalism we are going to be talking about today i think there is truly heroic journalism in britain. i suppose my feeling is we have at one end of the spectrum people who literally risking their lives to expose the truth about war and famine and resolution and the other end we have behavior that is illegal and unjustifiably intrusive, so i wonder sometimes why they are given the same name and why they call with the same thing. we should invent a new word for the second. >> in paragraph four of your statement you recognize the staff of your career had some beneficial effect on your book. is the right? >> i would say it's an interesting question with regard to harry potter in particular because in 1997 when the book that was published the

traditional media was the only game in town if a person wanted to say they had written a book or film or anything of that sort but during the ten years harry potter was published in the internet became a huge game changer. i think the internet became for harry potter arguably a greater commission at all. but yes in the beginning certain press is helpful. >> in paragraph five you immediately move towards what you described as a different kind of journalism of captivity. as you explain your literally being driven out of your first house can you give a date for that? >> that was the first half i ever owned that i received on

the first harry potter book particularly from america so we moved into that house in 97 and we left the house and 99. so during those two years it had become untenable to remain in the house. >> it was what that made it unattainable? >> door stepping, photographs had been published that showed not only the number of the house but also the name of the street which happened to be on the building so i was a sitting duck for anyone who wanted to find me. journalists sitting outside of salon and because the st. -- when i bought the house i didn't know what was coming. i didn't know what was quick to the considerable amounts of

money in this house on the street i really for someone who was going to receive that kind of press attention. 64. you explain generally what is the detail later in seven you have no choice but to take action against prez through ipcc, the commission and the courts and the number of times you had to engage solicitors in this is about 50 is that right? >> probably, yes. >> does that cover both ptc and litigation? >> it might be more but as far as i can tell. yes. >> the main concerns you wish to express of the foremost concern to the privacy of your children and it is a privacy of your own and then the border issue.

your children you deal with this in nine and when your first novel came out if you don't mind the reading from the public domain he wore a single mother so what was your what it to our strategy that you had one in relation to any publicity first in regards to the book and secondly protection of your charge because it's been filed. >> we took the view them and i would like to say i certainly wouldn't like to be seen standing judgment because there are people i know who have made a view on this but it was my belief and remains my belief that children do their best when they are kept out of the public

eye and if their home life is secure that means it feels like a place of safety. so from the very first to draw a very clear line between what i consider and the intrusion that was largely my daughter i have requests and i vividly iran to the dhaka remember a woman who wanted to take a photograph of me with my broken down typewriter with my daughter on why kneee and when i said that is not happening i really did not want that to happen. i think one reason i agreed to appear because this is one thing i feel very strongly when you become well-known -- and it shocked me that i had become so well known so quickly, no one

gives you a guidebook. there is nothing handed to you to say a, b or c. you have to make it up to an extent yourself and body inferred from the press justification for printing photographs of the family. the justification was you have invited them into your home and allowed photographers to take pictures of your children. you have used your family as a promotional tool. sallai inferred that if i do not do those things, the privacy of my children -- well at that time my only child -- will be respected. so i was trying hard to abide by what i thought was the written code, and i would say - kasich mick fecund section of the press has respected my stance on that, but as a significant section of

the press in my view have seen that as a challenge so why try to abide by what i thought were the rules and i felt. >> you mention one case on paragraph ten of the witness' statement you took them along with you and they did try to take photographs and that never happened again. >> i never took her anywhere like that again. i remember that occasion. i was thrilled to receive the award and i took her. i knew other children more going to be there and it's not like i don't want my children to share these occasions with me but that experience taught me that can't happen because she was launched and i disagree. i took her away and after that i decided the way forward is not

to take my children to these kind of defense. >> and well, you deal with the three causes you support. would you like to cover those specifically? please do. >> i think it's relevant to say that i have on occasion discussed by phone, not my children's but multnomah wife and i suppose broadly speaking there are three areas of my life that are quite private that i have discussed. when i wrote to the first book has a single print that was common knowledge and i wasn't ashamed of that but it had been difficult to find child care and all of these things i did talk about and lastly i tried to do something meaningful because i became an ambassador for the

campaign and then i also said in my statement on the society i found research for the funds. my mother died of complications from multiple sclerosis. it's not something that i relish talking about but i talked about it with a purpose and i think that that is one of the up sides if you like being one of them that you can become a spokesperson for those kind charities. the last thing i said is i have talked openly about the fact i have depression. i think originally i discussed this in the context of my work and i do feel quite strongly that as a writer or any kind of creative person who are life

become such an important factor in more work. so there are things in my work that relate to a recent repression or things i myself have experienced. so in other words i was talking about depression not try and to get sympathy or to be put there was the purpose i had created in the harry potter books but i don't in any sense regret talking about depression because as i say in my statement i have received a number of letters particularly from younger people who have been depressed who found it helpful people don't treat that as something to be ashamed of, so yes i have discussed these matters but i would say first i think a more cultural life would be diminished if people were not allowed to say whether they received inspiration or ideas coming and i would say second i

don't think any reasonable person could infer because i discussed these things. i think a reasonable people would be to quit their efficient >> thank you paragraph 13 new developer the deployment which you've already touched on namely the importance of a marble charter for your children. you mentioned the one incident where there was a note from a journalist slip into your daughter's school bad. can you give more context? >> my daughter, my oldest daughter, so this would have been the first publicity surrounding me she's in her third year of school and i went through her school that in the evening and among the usual letters from school that every

child generates i found an envelope addressed to me and it was from a journalist so it's my recollection that the letter said he intended to ask a mother at the school to put this in my daughter's bad. i know no more than that and i don't know how that got into my daughter's school bag or not. i can only say that the sense that i felt such a sense of invasion that my daughters that bad. it's difficult to say how angry i felt that my 5-year-old daughter's school was no longer a place of secure journalists.

>> 14. your religion has clearly stated in the second line my husband and i have taken every step we can think of to prevent the children being photographed by photographers and then you outlined some of them and some more general and some more specific. would you care to elaborate on those, please for us? >> i say in our statement for example we didn't take a honeymoon. we were married because we had previously taken a holiday together and the was the location that will all along so we decided we took we went to great lengths to ensure it was private. there are many things we can do.

we've tried to do all of them to prevent the children from being photographed. >> 15 occasions for the proper r.o.t.c. would find your house you occasionally hide your children on blankets. >> after the birth of each of my subsequent children for weeks it was impossible for me to leave the house without being photographed, so wanted to be photographed in a month of those occasions they took residence outside our house and my husband was going to work in coming in and out being photographed but i felt completely trapped in the house and that has a massive effect on the children.

>> you clearly stated in paragraph 17 the photographers and more important picture editors of newspapers, magazines and other media to give your children, have you done this by making statements to them or how has this been achieved? >> i have gone through such linked to try to prevent for my children and does it is in the statement into court. i would like to say that particularly with regard to photographers all side of our house i think a very good example of this is show the journalists from the scottish tabloid to cut residence outside of our house in the car at the time i was absolutely unaware hot off of the interest i have a book coming out so i asked

someone who wrote for the public relations company to please ask them what they wanted and the response she received was it is a boring day at the office so my family and i were literally under surveillance for their amusement to pretend there was a story but this has to explain to people who haven't experienced what that feels like the twist because you wonder what do they want, what to they think they've got hot. it's incredibly threatening to have people watching you. >> you quite rightly state that the sun published an article in march of 2003 of no criticism of

that but they said she is protective of her private life in a top-secret accurately stating the position. you have given some specific examples starting 21. the picture in 2001 it a magazine when your child was in need. and that was was it a public or private meeting? >> this is where it went wrong because my husband and i were not married then. it was shortly before we were married. we were convinced we were on a private beach. they said we would be discovered that no beach. it's private. they were private by law. the hotel we were staying at had its own beach so we believe the

ourselves to be in the private situation. my husband who is more of a servant and i said he was worried about a boat that was a little way out and i dismissed it and said i was sure we were fine and he was being paranoid. he wasn't at all. we were being monitored and when we arrived home it was a photographer of the two of us, not my daughter but the two of us on the beach. >> get lead to a complaint to the pcc. the complaint was held as you know. >> this was the company of my daughter including.

>> it was not rich and for not the case if he won the case because of these particular circumstances so if you look at the at adjudication set out in your witness statement to read it out to do so while the commission may have regard to its previous decision circumstances were necessarily from case to case considered each complaint on the code. the code and titles every one of all ages respect to their life in the delude unacceptable the use to take pictures of people and places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy in addition it is greater protection to children and does not allow photographs of children under the age of 16

to be taken where the welfare is involved and allow the justification to publishing material of the other. it's also an exceptional public interest reaching these positions money was provided in the case. the commission noted that it was not in dispute the calm through considerable length in the past to protect their daughters' privacy. it seems to have been respected and the location to not being charged. the family had gone down to avoid the unwanted attention. the commission would not ask the photograph of the complaint partner but considered in the circumstances given a high level of protection afforded by the code of children photographs should not have been taken or published and therefore breached for free.

well, he would presumably agreed with every word of the decision, ms. rowling? >> i would agree with every word, yes. >> do we need to go on to the complaint if you liked? >> may i say one word on that photograph of my daughter? unlike the citizen print you can receive an apology when an images disseminated it can spread around the world like a virus and that photograph of my daughter in her swimsuit was on the internet could to to months after the pcc ruling. they couldn't copy the image and put it on the internet and they had nothing to prevent that from

happening but i feel that given the fact that an image can have the life that cannot be recalled once you see what someone looks like in their swimwear an apology does not remove that at the image has particular property in that way, so i contacted my lawyers when i realized this was out there and with the attempted to remove it wherever they could. i'm sure it is out there. that is the particular harm of the image. >> the analysis in line with the standard practice is to provide your case in two different parts of the code. you've been looking at the cahal switches privacy is a relevant factor but the deal separately with the effect of the children issue and on a separate basis of

the complaint which gives no reason in relation to draw free. >> it's noteworthy that the commission has made all the number of factors and the men of the clear which factor is determinant the consider all of the circumstances that they may see these issues are not always straightforward. would you accept that or not? >> where children are concerned it is my personal belief the issue is not come textual. a child a matter who their parents are desert privacy. they have no choice who their parents are or how they behave so i would respectfully say that i think where children are concerned it is black-and-white and i think you would have to be extraordinary public interest to

justify the publications of the photographs of children particularly without their response. >> the next sequence is slightly more complicated legally and it's the big picture litigation. tell us what happened on the eighth of november, 2004 when me look at the legal consequences of that. >> i was heavily pregnant with my third child most unusually my husband had a morning off and this is relevant when we went out this time of day to get their because a was our belief that people were watching the house without any particular

justification. we took a walk to the local cafe most people would say that is innocuous to do with the family and we were photographed covertly not realizing it had happened to realize when we took photographs it must have been happening before and afterwards because we saw them running down the road to get a better in all of us and this was no middle child, my son being photographed estimate the photographs were published and as you explain one of the newspapers published a photograph that shows your son's face and what happened as they often happened a picture agency had taken the photograph and this particular instance happened to be a company called big pictures limited and they

sold it to the highest bidder. >> that's my understanding of what happened, yes. >> he knew then the proceedings and use of an injunction as well as damages for the privacy and the first stage before the judge your claim was struck out is that right? stickney i just say before we move on to that point there was a reason i didn't go in. it had been my hope that the adjudication which sent notice to the press that i took it extremely seriously if they invaded my children's privacy and clearly the message hadn't been strong enough and sanctions

haven't been imposed the would make anyone think twice about this and they took a photograph of my child so that's why we didn't go back. that's why when we went a step further our intention was to underline the decision. islamic the arguments of the defendant of first instance was accepted and was on appeal was that this was a public place with no harassment there for there was no confidence or privacy that could be protected. >> they disagree as you would expect. there was no harassment. speaking to a different view. islamic yes we were extremely disappointed that was the response of the court.

islamic you have the right of appeal but, seventh of may, 2008 the court of appeal decided over by the then minister anthony clark favor of the judgment is of course publicly available. we've provided to you and our top. you have quickly summarize it in your witness statement in paragraph 28 and said that it is understood to given the way that this went off the court of appeal was decided you had an arguable case you were not deciding whether he would win or lose it the end of the day although the judgment is the indy end of the keys to your satisfaction is that right?

>> of the judgment does bear reading in full to the detailed and sophisticated judgment i am not going to take time with it that couldn't be justice by summarizing at 28 have identified the key features as the fact we are concerned with the rights of the child. 29 you explain why you decided to prove this case. you have given us one of the reason. you lost confidence in the bcci and this was the failure of the press to respond to the agitation in 2001.

the first reason -- >> there was another incident shortly after my son was born. we were besieged for a week and then i believe the photographers had disappeared in the for the first time in a week i was able to get out of the house with my daughter and my beebee and i saw the photographer taking the picture from across the street with my daughter behind me and i didn't know how i would doubt run a 20 something pop r.o.t.c. and my daughter said calmed down it doesn't matter but it mattered to me that the moment i

stepped foot outside the door my children were being photographed again so the effect becomes quite draining so i decided it is time to take action when we had another instance. >> this is impeach 15 you make it clear you hadn't consented to the photographs being taken and point d the very fact you need to use the lens gives life to some position you are invading the factor which may be relevant. but the point on page 17 you

were not contacted prior to the publication. what difference might that have made? >> if i had been told what was coming i think i could have said i will take steps through the courts. i don't know what it would be if i had been notified to prevent publication we could have had a conversation. i could have used eight of my reasons not wanting the children photographed but again i feel the point is that i, like a lot of people who have agreed to give evidence we are not looking for special treatment. we are looking at the normal treatment. i don't regard myself entitled to more foreign simply asking for the same as an especially for white children. so yes if i had been notified of

the children to leave to photograph of my child that i had consented to by would have been given an opportunity to and one would hope that would have carried some weight but again i wasn't notified so i couldn't do that. >> your position has been stated before. there is no need to restate it. >> that's right. what can you do. >> a 13, ms. rowling, there were photographs that ranked in july july 2006 address of your family and children is the right? >> i would have to say i felt

the immediate cause was literally the second time since 1998 a swimsuit on a public beach twice and both times i've been photographed hot and dusty explain on the first occasion i believe it was a private beach. on the second occasion my guard was down we haven't encountered any press on assumed we were and i was wrong again. initially the photographs only of mean and why don't assess that i'm a writer so i don't really say that it is of any relevance or public interest to know what i look like in a swimsuit but people around me

leave it and i felt the same way wouldn't be able to succeed to prevent publication of the photograph of me. i was very concerned i was in proximity to the children all that afternoon and sure enough the agency confirmed they were holding a picture. they took one photograph of the children and agreed to destroy yet which i believe was done. estimate of the complaints -- >> i think my recollection is we didn't, and i think there was because -- >> my confidence in the pcc was

it worth going through the complete relief. >> there was another incident hop speed 2019 and july 2007 in a journalist contacted the headmaster of your eldest daughter's school. >> one of the instances of outreach a journalist contacted, did not contact me. i highly contact rebel person. there is a firm that represents the and i have publishers. there are numerous ways to contact me very easily. no one contacted me and as i say in my statement to the claim by the journalist was my eldest

daughter had distressed fellow people by receiving that harry potter died in the final book and the headmaster received complaints from students and parents because their children were so upset so my daughter was being characterized as a bully, using information from me to upset people and there wasn't one word of truth in it. at her own request she didn't want to know. i am very weary speculating and i have been on the receiving of stories being put to one that probably i would guess the

journalists said or not true with the strategy seemed to be that they would surprise someone into saying something they can then print because i would say why not contact me? possibly there was a hope the headmaster might inadvertently revealed she had said something or that's not what i heard. but again she's approached my daughter's school and it's outrageous. >> tariffs mcginn sub si, november 2007, more photographs outside of the coffeehouse. >> this one was just i had taken my youngest daughter out she was

quite excited and we became aware that we were being photographed across the street and someone was with me and said please stop and the photographer refused. the claimed the only saw her legs in the photograph. the justification that i heard on that occasion i was never in public again. >> the impact are you able to insist the inquiry on that? >> there's the particular impact for example my youngest daughter was very upset because the photographer wasn't going to resist. we have nowhere to go so we got

in the car and went home again. on a general note, the sense of being unable to leave your house or move freely is obviously prejudicial to the normal family life and certainly all three of my children have been aware of the suddenly pulled behind for i would split from the family group so you're hoping to draw them off. you go this way i will go that way. so there is the general edginess when you are aware there are people in the vicinity and when there are and to become jumpy and thinking the person be heading in a peculiar manner may be conceding the moment they may not but it's very unnerving to know that you are being watched

so that impacted my children. >> we may move on to the second topic now which is privacy of home life and this is related of course to the issue of personal security, which is an obvious matter of concern to you. can i deal with the matters in chronological order. i think -- >> yes. >> i think the right date is january, 2005 is the right? >> i think so, yes. >> there was an article published about work taking

place at your home. you're full address which is published in the house in question obviously it is enough to identify which house we are talking about so that it is clear what happened as a result of this? >> well, sorry, could you estimate it again? as a result of this publication of this photograph we asked them -- we went to this newspaper and requested that they remove both foes from the website and so on land they could do that. >> them into late 2005 saw of the border now the publisher and

article with the street and photographs in scotland, no public interest in that and you're concerned additionally that the article showed a certain security features which you quite rightly had in place. >> for obvious reasons i don't wish to go into details and happy to provide those details is relevant. >> like virtually everyone in the public eye for i have on occasion i have been the target on that individual and i mention

this because my desire to keep the precise address of the property where i live with my family out of national newspapers is not because i'm being precious it is because of a number of occasions we have needed to -- the police have been involved because of incidents or threats so it is reasonable of me to wish the papers would refrain from making my whereabouts of very identifiable. and clearly i have to live somewhere. we have taken all reasonable precautions in this matter. again i seek a reasonable person would see a difference between my house, my children's friends know where we live, and anyone

who reads a national newspaper been able to find us. >> what happened in this particular case, and we will deal with pcc in a moment. the addresses were in the public domain and they could be found on the internet. >> we've taken every step of one can to make sure that we are not listed on the registers the texas online. we can't prevent any individual putting our address online but if that is the justification of newspapers reprinted international press the is the justification that we have taken every reasonable precaution we can think of to protect our own

privacy. >> then you point out of the third line of paragraph 43 published a picture of your daughter's. >> what i'm about to say does not apply to the whole of the british press but it is my experience with the british press a few protest or make kump thinks that you can expect some form of retribution i thought the fact in this case it was a picture of my child put into the papers of very quickly after by asked if i was spiteful actually >> to move to a different title, the evening standard in october of 2007 published photographs

and information about your home including descriptions of the property, details and to their history and the location and details of security arrangements and pictures what was the complaint? >> as my witness statement says the had noted the contents of my letter and again this doesn't apply to the whole of the press but the attitude seems to be cavalier in what does it matter. you are asking for it. >> that is the final series in

october, november, 2007 and on the daily record and on sunday to publish articles has identified the precise location of your home in the countryside saying the name of your home and the property and in the name of the small town in which you lived in. >> when we complained about this the information was in the public domain what they put it in the public domain. you can't complain we are printing for the address on the address because we already printed photographs and the address. a >> so that it is made clear it had been put in before on sunday. >> about which we complained.

>> therefore it is entirely disingenuous to the scottish male to rely on that argument in that part of the newspaper. >> right. >> does that apply to the daily record? >> the meurlin and the deily record as i said the agreed to remove the article from their archives but they had no guarantee they wouldn't publish the information again at some point. estimate there were complaints to the pcc in some of these events, not all of them, so that we understand the position in paragraph 48 conduct the publication in july, 2005 which is what to talk about in paragraph 42 that you are

complaining they were held in part by frank and we have the. >> the key point they disagree with me they said they hadn't given it enough information to edify the property and i strongly disagree. people said to me after i know where you live now. and they described from the information in the newspaper the word accurately able to identify which house we thought, so i must disagree with the papers on that matter. >> the reasoning of the pcc so it is clear is the part of the case which was upheld the commission would set aside the photograph and the caption

contained such sufficient information to identify the location of the property so that was on objectionable but to the argument was in relation to the other houses it was not sufficiently and therefore hope and they would have to carry on further increase to pinpoint the location. >> i feel the pcc isn't able to trace. all it needs is three or four newspapers to provide partial information and one would be given a guided tour to my house. if each complaint is going to be struck down because that is almost your address we don't think that is good enough, then i feel we are all in vulnerable positions. estimate to the jigsaw.

>> and exactly. i don't think the pcc -- a little conveniently not taking a holistic view of the matter. >> we see a similar theme whether it is right or wrong in relation to the 2007 publication under tab for because the complaints are not of held in the same reason the identification isn't specific if you look at the four corners of the article itself you say the answer to that is the other information some of it has been disseminated by the press itself and it doesn't take too many steps dillinger and the pieces. >> literally it is because in fact when we bought a new house one newspaper gave -- i am sorry

it was our previous house in edinburgh yes in fact i believe was this paper they said sufficient information to identify the location of the house. however someone saw the article and the instantly knew which house it was. i used to live there. they gave the whole address so they were able on the basis of what they read to put everything to the public domain. and again i feel little if any weight has been given to that when the pcc looks at these matters. >> they put the entire address down to the post code, think actually it was done quite instantly they were rather excited to realize the house the lived in a few years previously

but whole address was on the internet in two days. my lawyer was able to contact the person and say please -- if they did. but again in the meantime, how many people have seen the whole address? >> to understand where you say the boundary lines are, what do you say is permissible, what is impermissible on this issue? >> on this issue i don't see why it is in the public interest to know where i live. i can't put a device over my house, nor do i wish to. i want to live in as normal as a way as possible but it is not

normal for anyone famous or not famous for their address not to be known to the newspapers or the internet so that is where i would draw the line. and if i make a further point, as i said i moved of the first house we ever owned because the photographs precisely identified the number on the door and the street number and the building turned so an image can do as much if not much more damage than even a postal address and print. >> thank you. the key area you wish to address is free treatment in the press in paragraph sixth, ms. rowling.

in paragraph 51 you refer to an independent newspaper regarding the operation. t you believe you were the target of mr. wetmore, is that correct? >> .. i am happy to say what i know and i think, i don't know.

he appears to have made the investigations with people regarding me with people that i don't recognize so i don't know what he was after that and i don't know what he is searching for. but the bulk of what he appears to be trying to do was to track down people, related to me. for what purpose i couldn't tell you, but yes, you coming seem to me making inquiries about my extended family. >> thank you. and as you say in paragraph 52 of your witness statement you are waiting a substantive response from the ico. you have now received some sort of response. >> there is -- i believe there is additional information. speaking may or may not the important.

you get the gist of a. >> what i've seen so far. >> is there any significance? >> as i understand it we have seen some of the documentation but it is my understanding there is more to come. it's so expensive i don't want to know the details. it might affect what i am thinking about and doubtless you can provide the information at some stage. i don't want the details with the length of the information could be variable but only if you feel it is, takes me further. >> thank you. >> paragraph 53 give another example and it's actually quite characteristic to evidence about it this morning. namely someone from the post office and they have a package

but no address. >> i recalled while preparing the statement that i know about, i actually realized halfway through, keeping the small details but i was being blacked. it was shortly after we moved into that first half that we owned and i believe the journalist didn't know where i had moved to. somehow, i don't know, had my telephone number but did not know my exact address. so i received a phonecall allegedly from the postal system. this man said to me, i am from the post office. i have got a package here for you. what's your address? so i began to speak and then i said wait, wait a moment. you are from the post office. what does it say on the package? and he hung up.

>> the story were heard i think in your absence from another witness this morning was that he said well, the mobile phone has been left on the wrist, being left on the rift paper and in that case the information was provided. >> well, -- >> so your account has resonance with some evidence that we actually heard this morning. >> my husband was very fortunate and we were not married. we had just started a relationship. my husband had just moved from one hospital to another and fortunately, not fortunately for neal they seem to be from the tax office and my husband was expecting a communication from the tax office. so that he could adjust his

tax -- anyway, he gets a call, he takes the call and they say what is the tax and he gave them everything. he confirmed his national insurance number and it was the next day or the day after that he opened his front door at 6:00 a.m. to visit the hospital and flashes went off in his face. the paparazzi had felt in. found him. so that was an a not very nice introduction. oh i should say was subsequently contact so that is how we know. >> alright. >> and then you attach on phone-hacking issues. the position at the moment is that as far as you are aware,

depending on the basis of information evidence examined to date, there is nothing to connect you with with the phone-hacking, said wright? >> i barely use the mobile phone. >> and with the issues of as much commercial confidence as personal privacy leaked information regarding your books. i think harry potter, five as you say and in 2003, became into possession of two copies of the book which was stolen from the printer's. >> yes. >> can you tell us a little bit about what happened next, please? >> i believe the story was that an unemployed gentleman had

found a copy of harry potter in a field. i find that story rather difficult to believe. so we had taken every reasonable step to try and prevent prepublication leaks and now the manuscript was in the possession of the tabloid newspaper so we took out, i'm not an expert on this by any means, but we took out what is called a john doe injunction against unknown persons to prevent because we didn't know how many journalists at this point had the manuscript publication of the content. >> there is associated news wishes to make it clear that so they understand the position, the injunction was obtained only in relation to the activities

and not the daily maryland or the mirror. are you a where of the position they are ms. rowling? >> it is my belief and i would need to check with my lawyers that the john doe injunction was taken out against whoever have a copy of the information. [inaudible] >> that is not our position. the position is that it was obtained. i think ms. rowling and her geysers did not know who might be in possession of the book and as far as the newspapers concerned although the book was offered to us, it was rejected immediately and in court the judge except the that it had been offered a completely reject it. >> very good, thank you so much. >> mr. caplan did provide me with an updated manuscript.

>> don't worry. we will cope with it, yes. >> i'm sorry about that as well. it continues in paragraph 60. what happened with the return of the copies? can you help us there please? >> a great deal happened. there was no straightforward handover of the book. a review of the book was published, which really was a way of publishing some of the contents, paraphrased. this in spite of the fact that they had promised not to reveal in court that they had promised not to reveal anything that was in the book. the book was photographed. those photographs obviously went into the paper, and so we had to go back to court to try and enforce cooperation with the

original injunction. speier tell us the "the sun" was trying to turn this into an opportunity. >> yes, this is to me a classic example of again, except this is far from being all journalist but there is a section of the press that sees opportunities in a situation like this that i felt like i was being blackmailed. what they really wanted was a photograph of me gratefully receiving back the stolen manuscript. so i was being asked to pose with the book. >> there was a similar sort of sequence in the offense but perhaps less seriously if you tell me that is right in relation to another book. i'm not sure whether it is the sixth of the seventh one. >> it's the sixth one, yes. i would agree it's less serious.

this is opinion. my opinion is that if one shows oneself the page to take a stand, then i suppose i would say that the press is maybe being wary of me, in that on certain issues and often my children's privacy being the most important one, but that they worried because they were aware that i could afford to pay for expensive noise and that is a sad reflection on the state of affairs. i mean, i therefore receive the kind of treatment on occasion that i think is not available to the ordinary person so it was a less serious situation on the sixth book because i think they had seen, i guess, because they had seen with that we were prepared to defend the book vigorously in 2003. >> thank you. we will move move onto false

attribution in paragraph 63. in hello magazine, an article in 2010 or thereabouts claiming to be an exclusive interview. one never occurred. >> yes and i think people might think that is quite a denial of occurrence but in fact it's not. if you are trying, as i am, to make it quite clear that my personal life, my family life is out of bounds, then the perception that i have grounded an interview to a magazine that is primarily notorious going into peoples houses, photographing them with their families, hearing personal details of the private lives and i since no one by the way for doing those interviews. i don't think that's an awful thing to do. it simply happens that is not something i wish to do. and so the magazine asserting

that i had done that i feared would be used as justification for further invasion. you are prepared to sell your private life in this way, and as is clear from my statement, what they had done was take in my article from a different paper and repackaged it, from a different source and repackaged it. >> and then you had a lot of difficulty with the apology. it took time and you feel they reneged on the agreement you had with them. >> yes, they were very very difficult to deal with a medication. they drug their feet for very long a very long time and they didn't want to admit they had done what we knew they had done in the apology was miniscule. >> in paragraph 6d, you are claiming defamation. could you just tell us a little bit about that please ms. rowling? >> yes, this was really quite

horrible because it caused real distress to my oldest child. the day the express published an article saying that i had based an unpleasant character in the harry potter books on my ex-husband, this was wholly untrue and their justification for writing this was that i had said, while doing a book greeting with a group of children, and i remember the event. it was the edinburgh festival and it was very pleasant. i'm often asked, do you base characters on real people? it was really a throwaway comment. i said, humorously, the character was based on someone with whom i had lived briefly. now, that's true. but that person probably can't remember that we were ever flatmates. this was a long time ago so i felt quite clean about saying that.

identified no one and as i say, the clinton ship was so fleeting i didn't feel like i was doing anything damaging. and again this is in the context is speaking to children about the creation of a book. so i was relaxed and not expecting what came next and which was this article. and not only did they say that i had aced this character on my ex-husband, they were clearly depicting me as the kind of vindictive person who would use a best-selling book to vilify anyone that -- which is simply nonsense. so i had to sit down with my oldest daughter because they are talking about her via logical father and say to her, this is a true. i would never do this. there was no point of resemblance between this man and your father and while she was very understanding about this, i know you wouldn't, i know you didn't, believe you, it was a

horrible conversation to have to have. and of course, there is what happens outside the house. there is what happens when other children, many of whom have read harry potter, it tell my daughter that her father was the -- for this unpleasant character and that can't be recalled. even though children don't tend to read newspapers, so that misinformation caused real emotional hurt. which i'm sure is a matter of difference for the person who wrote it. it did quite matter to me. >> it resulted in an apology. can you tell us anything about the apology? for example where it was printed and its size and what might have been said? >> i truly can't remember but i know that it was small. they certainly didn't occupy the same kind of space that the original article did. >> paragraph 61 we have covered. paragraph 62 is separate

defamation issue. could you help us without one, please? >> now this one, i mean, untrue from beginning to end. there was an allegation printed that i was taking legal action against a man who was writing family literature. it was simply enter and i had never heard of it until this accusation was made against me. >> okay. in another defamatory article, paragraph 63 published in the mirror on sunday and the scottish daily express and the daily star scotland concerning the -- house in town. the basic.there is that you paid well over what was alleged in order to force the seller to

move out early. >> yes the original story says that i wrote into this house, which in actual practice our family home now, that i glanced at two rooms, that i've been offered a vast amount of money to get the owner out virtually instantly because i wished to host a christmas party in this house. it is utterly, utterly untrue. we looked around the house exactly that way any normal person would look around the house we were tending to live in. we took her children around the house and there was no question of throwing money at them to make them leave. we had a very good relationship with the seller who moved out in a normal time period and we actually never held any kind of christmas party that year because we had just moved in. it was nonsense. again, some people might think, well it's not a big deal. well firstly, it is depicting me as a very arguable person who is

unaware of the value of money, who uses it to bend anyone to her will, which i do not believe to be the case. but it's also, you are putting or the newspaper is putting a version of me and the family into the public domain that has an effect on my children who are then asked about the house that we bought when we barely looked at it in the huge party and how your mother just throws money at people to move them out of their houses. and this is hurtful stuff. >> there were a number of apologies, but you point out four weeks later the scottish times published very defamatory allegations and they denied that they were. >> defamatory. i think this builds a picture of how very difficult it is.

to stop defamatory articles of any nature, because no opportunity to correct the story but also it does spread like fire. someone else is lighting a fire over here and you say the person has already accepted that is completely insured and we don't accept that it is untrue. >> okay. the last matter you covered, paragraph 64, there was an inquiry about "the sunday times" of your pr agents. this is quite recent. the development of your scottish -- and the type of trees you are going to use. can you tell us a little bit about that please? >> this was quite a disaster. it's a long story really. we did receive notice on this

patient that the scottish sunday times wish to run an article about what we were planting in our garden. and i couldn't really into stand why that was of any public interest at all. then we were told that they were running an article on a non-native species and their environmental impact. i still couldn't understand why we wear being referenced in the article. and when he said well, we don't mind to let you come and look at our trees the journalist said well i will come and see it for myself and. i will come onto your property i assume. it was the effect, it was quite aggressive. if you don't mind, we have skirted over an argument and i find it difficult to find it in my bundle here. it was about my husband. i think it was the sunday

mirror. >> certainly. >> i'm going to need to find it but i really did want to talk about that one. >> what we will do ms. rowling, we will find that, come back to it and allow you to deal with that and in your own way as completely as you like. >> thank you. 's beasher and that will be passed to me. what i would like to do is put you at a point that news international in "the sunday times" wish me to raise in relation to the non-native species article. >> oh yes. i'm interested in knowing. >> then we will come back to the sunday mirror if that is acceptable. have you been shown a copy of the peace in "the sunday times"? >> i wasn't aware that it had appeared. >> yes.

>> thank you very much. >> this is a general piece apparently because we can see in "the sunday times" on the 14th of august of this year. garden expert wage war on plant invaders. >> yes, i see myself in this article. >> the general theme is that apparently the garden at edinburgh is to investigate behavior of every plant in its collection and admit concerned more than 100 species may pose a

threat to wildlife. they are a non-native species and then on the right-hand side, of the column you will see among those words the non-native plants is j.k. rowling who plans to introduce several varieties at the edinburgh home and they are listed. they include evergreen native to the mediterranean which is invading southeast england. is listed as a plant to avoid. so the suggestion there is that these plants or trees aren't yet there but you were planning to introduce them. i think that is clear from what is being said. do you have a comment on that? >> it's just ludicrous. i charlie -- i find it ludicrous. i mean, i do not, don't

recognize these plants they say i'm going to plant and as i've been involved in the garden clearly i've overlooked something important or they are mistaken and i tend to think that. >> it goes on and i appreciate this is rather difficult, spokesman for patients and i'm not going to ask whether you recognize an income the architecture firm helping to design rowling's garden said they council plan to design the species. well, there it is. >> news international's position is the information obtained was from public available planning documents which may well be consistent with what we see in the final paragraph and secondly that you where they say offered an opportunity to comment through your pr company and comment came from the architects

as we see reported. >> yes. >> does that make sense? >> yes, it makes sense. i wasn't aware this had appeared and in fact i thought that they weren't going to run the article, so this has been slightly sprung on me. i don't really know what to say about it. >> mr. sherbourne did you see this article? >> i hadn't seen it until very recently. i had provided it this morning but i hadn't seen it. >> okay, we have now put it together, right? can i just checked before we go back to the point he wanted to raise, we have are covering the ground. yes, there is an article i am

asked to bring to your attention. it may be that it simply hasn't been an opportunity. and therefore it's not something -- >> this came to me very late in the daily mail. it's probably, it's probably something and we are going to explore at all you should have the opportunity to look at. i can really press it now without the witness having a chance to read it. >> i am happy to answer questions on this but i don't know what is coming. i have sort of skimmed through it just before he came to sit down. i am happy to talk about it. >> can i see it?

hang on. it's in article xii and a half years ago. >> yes. >> let me see if i can put the point in the way that others may wish me to put in. the secret of events of my understanding is this, that after your first harry potter book which was of course a 1997, you were interviewed by angela levin then of the daily mail, various personal matters are dealt with. it's not necessary to go into them at all, but the article was not published at that time as we can see. it was not published until the ninth of july, 1999. are you with me so far?

bim. >> the's was published apparently after the second harry potter novel was published. >> so no, this is 99 so that would he around the time that the third book was published. the picture here is that the first book but i see the date on it is 1999 so that would be when the third book was published. >> right. >> in fact it says here her new book -- >> i was told that was the second. in fact it's the third. the point that i am asked to put it is that your publishers then tell the daily mail to say that you are very angry with the publication of this article. is that right? >> no. i do not recall ever asking my publishers to tell the newspaper

i was angry. this as you know, you told me i would be asked this question shortly before we came into court. and i have been racking my brains as to what this refers to. i have no memory effort of complaining through my publishers to any newspaper. that's not the way i would complain to a newspaper. i would go to the pcc or i would go to a lawyer i suppose. ..

and i just felt that giving more press felt like overkill. so i said to them, can they not just stay. and they've are very understanding of god. in fact, it did run into the radio but james -- gymnast to. i think what seems to happen as the males who published this article when i hadn't given interview at that time. however, i made no complaints about that. it may be that -- it may be that

cemented my publisher said she is not to impress, but i never gave instruction for a complaint to be made. so i'm slightly mystified. >> actually when one reads of its information does guide your content to recognize in the public domain except that it means your daughter. >> to whom my daughter already dedicated the first book. >> so people know the name of your daughter. >> all right. >> i think we need to understand where we are with this piece. it is perhaps some of our knowledge in the context and affects. >> i understand entirely why it was appropriate going forward. there is honor their article. >> i'm having difficulty. >> i know it's in hand.

>> there's an article in march 2003 that was written by the sunday mirror. worse than the understatements clack >> i don't think it's in the statements. not in the final version that may have appeared in a previous trial, which is what we're referring to. and i think called dr. murray at your beckon call and just for fairness sake, i also point out the sunday mirror did publish an apology. i don't have that, so i can't say in what form the apology appeared. i know that's the article. >> you said you wanted to mention it, some mention that. tell me about it. >> thank you. ms. malone wrote a short piece in which she alleged injury be in that language that i have married a guy sure and was

attracted to him partly because of his job and coming in now, he was someone who was doing well for our job and my husband has now given up his job. i remember quite vividly at the beck and call. the language was really very strong. and no phone call had been made too many of my representatives to check the veracity of the statements in the tree to resume husband and in 10 years of marriage has never taken any time off work except on holidays and there has never been a period when he has sent them working or studying for something similar. and this was another instance of -- i feel extremely strongly about this and i wish to mention it because my husband clearly is not a celebrity and he has no wish to be a celebrity. and again, this is damaging

misinformation because his colleagues, those who weren't in his immediate vicinity and were aware he was at the house where he was working side he had indeed thrown in a career that he works so hard at. >> it's not where he'd been spent working. >> here changed hospitals, which seemed to be the reason that he disappeared from one hospital. to not be entirely at my beck and call. again, one of the reasons why i was keen to his evidence here today is because albeit upside down the people who have very dubious pleasure of being married to, related to or live next-door to some of entries to the press. and i felt that that article is

spacious. it was clearly wholly untrue. and it was sending a horrible message out to my husband's colleague, some of whom he might wish to work with or for a complaint. yes, we did receive an apology, but it's the old case of i like this girl but the truth has got its boots on. there are still people for some time who believed my husband had indeed decided to give up work to become house has made to his wife. although i think nowadays there are few people who still believe that. anyway -- >> i understand why you wanted to tell me that. >> thank you. >> and your conclusion, please sum up your positions slowly, very hopefully. can i ask you a more general question that or not of your

experiences as you have explained them. do you have any recommendations or suggestions in which you read the inquiry to carry away the results of which you have told the inquiry this afternoon. >> this is not a compulsory question. >> i do not have been a very fully worked ideas. i can only say that i feel the pcc is ruthless. but it offers very little in the way sanctions chinese papers. it's the risk with the sides advance, that we need and i should send the unit nearly opposed to the states control of the media as i think everyone is, but i do feel that we need a body that has teeth, that can

impose sanctions. and i agree with several of the people who have inquired before me when they say prior notification would prevent a significant amount of damage, particularly the were the articles there can learn. apart from that, i can't pretend i have a magical wand. >> i would've been perfectly content if you would've had one. thank you very, very much indeed. there's a long afternoon. thank you. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations]

>> could you tell the inquiry your full name, please. >> paul mccollum. >> and your address? i don't think you need to give your home address. >> the council in dover. >> thank you very much, chief. and i understand you are professionally trained journalists. >> yes. >> and that you initially gained experience working for the regional press classics >> yes. >> and then he moved and experience working for the fleet street news agency. >> yeah, i started with thomson regional news paper and i was a journalism student and i finished top of my class and

he's now the minister of education. >> well, thank you for that. he then obtained a position as a shifter, working today in 1992. >> forcal mckenzie, yes. >> obtained a staff job working not the sunday sports. >> does news editor there for three months. it was a bit of a postgraduate silliness. >> and then you work for an agency. >> yeah, it was in france. >> before working for "news of the world" for a period of seven years, including working for part of that time at the deputy features editor. >> yes. >> he then moved to the sunday express for a period of around two years.

>> any investigations that were there quite >> he also worked for the national enquirer. >> the last three years before they had a body out and couldn't afford a european correspondent and a longer. >> is it great that you are not semi-retirement to the journalists working party is at your nearest him partly as public inquest >> yeah, a listed building has seven bedrooms and is closed off the top floor. it's quite important. we need a fighter escape to the listed buildings can say you can't have a fighter escape. but yet again i come up against government annoyance. so that's why i'm working two jobs. >> thank you. i think we can concentrate and your experience as a journalist and not just the public. and can i start by asking you some general questions about the pressures of the job as a

journalist? you mentioned in some of the interviews he's given byline counts. can you explain what the byline count process is? >> yeah, you can do electronically now, but before the days of word search, you have to get more than 12 stories the year in the newspaper. that doesn't sound very many, but given we are weekly newspaper in my longest investigation on a present governor who is spanking female presence out so he could have his way with him took three minutes to stand up and do they not. actually sometimes 12 stories has become a bit of a burden, which is why i count all of my stories out, just as it came to the crunch. i've done 15 or 35 this year. >> i see. could i ask you to speak up a little please. the consequence of not getting

sufficient violence was what? >> well he got fired. >> with the threat of the facts on the bush plan for the journalists generally quite >> yeah, you can get a front page on sunday. but by next tuesday got to have three fresh ideas. and that's a sign for a few months. but week after week after week, that becomes a real pressures to build up a list of contacts from police officers to be eyes, to basically anyone who could give you a story. an evening on those fixes to help you keep your job. >> is there a sense of competition with your fellow journalists quite >> massively. i think clyde goodman called foul of phone hacking because he was getting on a bit. he was royal editor had a really high salary with money of people who were 25 years old would've taken his job and spent longer on doorsteps and work harder.

so we're constantly snapping on his heels to stay one step ahead of them, got in a phone hacking. >> is there also competition with competing titles? >> very much so. the whole problem with working for a weekly newspaper is he got a story on wednesday and got three days to sit on it, hoping no one else is going to steer from you. the number of times i've spent the second half of the week locked in a hotel room in a foreign country with somebody, for example, princess diana spent two weeks with evan amsterdam just so no one else could get to them. so yes, they are constantly in van from other journalists. i remember buying up a couple who won a marriage, who was a blind date marriage.

and we flew them through the bahamas. it was a lovely story. we spent two weeks they are. we spent the entire two weeks fighting men from the feet so we kept it exclusive to ourselves. so we're sneaking them out of hotels at 2:00 in the morning and having car chases it down to stay down. not a really enjoyable way to spend my career. >> flights to the bomb accepted, was there an experience of the resources available to you to research stories? >> funny enough, no. when i started under "news of the world" at unchained peers, our budgets were positive. i mean, when i took it with a million pounds a year come which of the biggest budget of any newspaper department in the country. so i have a lot of money to

spend -- actually wasted, but i prefer to keep the money to people who could tell us a good tale about a corrupt politician or, you know, a sports star because they do well in terms of circulation. i never felt any financial constraints. but we had a big pot of money or they never paid anybody. >> on the question at the mansion to that last stand, what was the question of the editors and the cultural tone in the newsroom who worked in? scored to a new editor coming to an established culture? >> well, this has been at news of the world with 167 years old. i actually felt like it is a british institution just gives you bought it.

>> i'm having difficulty. i'd be very grateful to us because just a bit louder. thank you. >> my first editor, piers morgan kerry matched set the trend. he wants at all costs pretty much i don't care which you have to do to get that story. i mean, he wanted to be number one. he was driven to so a million copies a week, which is a lot. you've got to sell 230,000. there's nothing in comparison. at one point you can say half the population of the country we're beating what what we had written. and so i think in a sense we were, in terms of the powers of the patent, were the most powerful journalist in britain because it the biggest leadership. what i wrote was red. >> there's so little about the editor and his influence on the culture at the newsroom.

can i ask you now about proprietors when you were working for "news of the world," was that your experience as a proprietor sought to influence the content that was published. >> i can think of a couple of examples that would point to the exact opposite when the ground got caught and she was a black. and we put her on the front page. i remember rupert or doc same way we are putting that on the front page? does not permit toned down a little? which is to find the way to the newspapers. i mean, i thought it was a fantastic front page. and i only met him once. he came into the newsroom and he was just a little guy with the

tweed jacket and he didn't have a swipe card to get into his old building. he got stuck between two doors. i thought my god, his guys in charge of the biggest media empire in the world and campaign to the newsroom. >> the sort of intervention you mentioned with the divine brown story, was it usual to have an intervention, or was that an exception? >> well, he spoke to his editor who was rebecca brooks or piers morgan. apart from them having looked over my shoulder one, you know, just to see what i was up to for no particular reason, he would've never spoken to some of his lowliest. >> moving on to the topic of the theory of journalism, i understand this you have, for example, covered the gulf war.

>> kosovo, yeah. >> immigration stories such as bank at. >> yeah, i spent a night and i think pretty well given up the investigative journalism about five years ago when i got hit in the head with a lump of concrete who are pretty intent on killing me. before that i smuggled myself across the channel just about about everywhere imaginable but then sometimes assisting. >> on the question of what happened to convicted, he wrote a controversial piece, didn't you, as part of the "news of the world" naming and shaming campaign? >> yeah, that was rebecca brooks good idea and was initially came into gregg kaminski's girlfriend to research and she couldn't find any. she went on to the library can be an avid listener radio, had

done a program on the boy scout. so i said goodbye to follow up on radio form. can we have a look at the workings of the database and went down and plundered about 50 pedophiles who had and abused children and served a sentence and were now out. the whole point was that, you know, i might live in my house with my children. for the first time ever we know that peter the lives next door and he just serve 10 years because he a child as young as like yours. so possibly one after another good thing, but that was the most visible. >> their number of things i want to ask you about that story. the first is you refer to blogging about some of the information necessary. when he did that come idg given a consideration to whether or

not it would be in the public interest? >> yes, it's always in the public interest. an income of circulation defines what is in the public interest. i see no distinction between what the public is interested in public interest. there clever enough to make a decision whether or not they want to poke their hand in the pocket and bring out a pound and buyer. i don't think it's the job if anyone else to force the public to be able to choose that you must bring this. you can't move out. >> that's not quite the point, is that? it's not that anybody is forcing the public to be able to choose. it is rather whether it is appropriate to do in such otherwise might be considered unethical in some wider goal. or maybe you don't think there is an ethical -- >> no, i think the public is

clever enough. a dozen in someone like max mosley to say what should be published. and the reason why "news of the world" sold 5 million copies this because there were 5 million thinking people and that's what they wanted to read. that's what drove the paper. we were demure to society. the daily mirror in fact. putting lawyers in charge of what the public and i think you're going down the wrong group. >> and the targets of your story, neither here nor there, is that it? as a serious question. >> yeah, no, if that found that targets to cecil, they would not have voted the universe was true. >> see what is of interest to the public. >> what it is of interest is that they put in their pocket and buy. >> the consequences of the

naming and shaming campaign was that there was necessary public to senator, wasn't there? >> yes. >> did you think the coverage been in such about a certain amount of hysteria? >> yeah. in a bizarre way i felt slightly proud that i had written something that created a pediatrician was the case with the ego aspect of what the recalls have latched onto. but in another way, the public was absolutely outraged. for the last 20 years you could have a child for the next with family of four hurling over the fence at their children and even sometimes letting them babysit and the abuse would carry on. >> i'm sorry. i just want to check whether i'm

reading this correctly. i fell asleep you proud that i had written something that creates the right thing at a pediatrician. gas. >> how do you judge what you do in your career? like to have an impact and that was one story that certainly had an impact. i mean, you yourself would like to spend your career in a back room, never having created or achieved anything. and i was the achievement was not having a pediatrician. but he was writing a story of such an impact that we are writers because the public is so furious and it needed to be checked. i didn't think he met what is just right. that's the point. >> that's not how it is reported.

>> or hops to pick up a little more up more about which you felt, did you feel that she had a certain power or you can read a story, which would provoke a reaction from a very large organ? >> yeah, he says that on the train watching people read things that i had written. it's not one of the reasons why we do it? i like the idea that this paper wasn't just the biggest paper in britain. it is the biggest paper in the english-speaking world. clearly we were doing something right. there was a certain influence that went with that. >> did it not or what the subject matter with? >> no, that was decided by the reader. he simply mirrored back what he wanted to read. i mean, the whole point of taking circulation into the best paper you can be to achieve the number one circulation is you have to appeal to butchery and

whatnot three. and if they are the judge and jury and if they don't like it. the churches are having to in a better three nebat on, though simply start buying the product. the reality was in the millions. this is what the people of britain want. >> and to that extent be ingested justifies the means. >> yes, i think so. i think in order to -- one of the things we had to do at news of "news of the world," in effect he was made out because every article i've ever read is recorded and their legal department would sometimes when a transcript of it if we thought

we were going to get sued about it. so i've ever try to do is to write truthful articles and use any means necessary to try and get to the truth. and there's so many barriers in the way that sometimes you have to enter into a gray area and it would sometimes be applauded for entry. because it's a gray area. there's more than in war zones. i used to get a death threat at least once a month for 15 years of my career. i never paid a bill in my young name. you know, my wife received death threats so there were times when we had security guards living outside the house. i had to do about and live in a hotel. it's not an easy life. my surveillance was sacked a

life. it's a huge sacrifice. for the first time in my life right attended the public they want to know what i've done for a living. the biggest circulation english-language paper in the world. and i was quite happy and proud to do it, which is why i think fun hacking is perfectly acceptable tool given the sacrifices that we make. we want to get to the truth. i give you an example. we went to cover the iraq war as an embedded correspondent for the raf. and i was attacked at the british harrier force. we spent five weeks in the

desert at the base, living with the ground crew peered .. no problem at all saying i didn't actually had his foe in but if i had proven he was not an honorable man because he stood up in front of 200 people in the church and said to his wife i will look you combine

elon with you, this is my pledge yet he slips through the corner and has sex with his secretary so i want to know the man that was partly responsible for sending our voice to that death is an honorable man and to that end yes i put my hand up and say i went through his phone and went through his fingers because that is a more important truth in this nonsense which is not good for the country. if you look at the country the journalists tim jeal alana about the same, they've got about 20 or 30 and we laugh at those countries. we are so much better than them, but i am here because the section 21 noticed severed with my colleagues under arrest and all life ever done is try to tell the truth. >> i am not threatening to send

you to jail for speaking the truth. i am requiring you to tell me if i didn't want to hear from you i wouldn't have done that. and i am giving you a platform to say what you are singing. isn't that what it is about? >> fi suppose it is that having said that i'm quite happy to be here given that. thank you. >> the feelings that you have just expressed were commonly held in a news of the world room. >> it's very hard to get the story. you don't go up to a priest and say good sermon and are you a priest? it doesn't happen. you don't say hello i work for news of the world.

you have to go to a degree to get the truth. i collect that particular example perhaps i could explore the methods that are used by the tabloid press and certainly in your experience hot can deal with the conversation is it your evidence that before 2000 the use of scanners to intercept conversations involved in stories was widespread among journalists? >> yes it was. >> and that practice has diminished as a result first of all of the switch from analog to digital and second because of the bigamous gamble? >> just as an example the taken

their radios out of the scanning range and fundamentally what people fail to realize is in the phone all it is is a radio transmitter so you transmit to the airwaves and anyone can have effective the radio but a much larger band with and that all this. that is why tony blair didn't have one of these and robbie williams didn't have one of these in the same category because it is just so easy for anyone to listen in. >> i've been asked to put the next question to you and we were growing up to believe that your father's phone was hacked and i've been asked to suggest to you that there is an irony between that fact and the willingness of journalists to intercept conversations. do you see any irony?

>> my father was a journalist and i used to receive phone calls from people and he was looking after the fact that maybe they ordered us to be kickstart and i just remember my parents of the time because what a joy it was that in the 90's -- dahlia understanding of it is that it wasn't actually be legal and do we want to live in a world where the only people who can do the hacking or the journalists? no for the brief period of about 20 years we have had a free society and if you start jailing journalists for that this will

be a country that is left up by iran and china and turkey. >> can i move now to the question of the interception? in your experience hell, and maza voice mail interception by journalists at the news of the world? >> of the rank-and-file journalist it wasn't uncommon. journalists swat members with each other and i think guice -- swapped -- speed i should stop you there. i'm deliberately asking questions about the culture and you should not understand my questions as to the asking about what you personally did unless you want to tell us.

you don't have to tell us. >> the point being it is ironic given what you just said that you are absolutely not obliged to commit yourself in any way whatsoever and you ought to know that. how you choose to answer the question is of to you what i will give you the warning. >> for the public good point of this inquiry then as the police asked treat the as a criminal surely to prove politicians are dishonorable men and as such we have dishonorable motives when they send them to be killed in iraq and afghanistan is more important than jailing me for saying i hacked david beckham's phone for example. >> you were saying that the interception of voice mail was

for the rank-and-file. were the intercepted voice-mail messages used as leads for the further investigation of stories? >> what happened is the mobile phone was invented in the 90's and the taiwanese cannot quickly so six months later you have the scandal lamarca at d'huez which of the late nineties and the actual lease which of about three years ago finally. it was a school yard track practice by many teenagers across the country we now call phone hacking and. it is simply bringing of the mobile phone to sell the film that you are the owner and then the old days you put in for zeros because the was the

default mode. so great many people from - thinking their husbands were staying out late may have a lesson. i remember the program friends had an episode one of them packed into the phone of the mother went to see if they were having an affair. in what a joke that was. at least 10% of the population, maybe 20%, just hit naim on their girlfriend or boyfriend, perhaps your son or daughter is staying out late and you want to know where to or she is, that is a criminal act to listen to their messages. so yes, obviously journalists are going to do that, too to people that were going to give them stories. the problem comes sometimes when if you did hit long when you bring them up so i can say in all honesty once i rang up david beckham expecting the phone to

ring because he wouldn't normally answer the phone but actually did and -- >> how did you get my number? i didn't have his own in this instance because he answered rather courtly. and call waiting and so then again, at two in the morning he was much better at these things than the rank-and-file journalists. >> to address a list from my question can i take it that the interceptors messages were used that leads to investigate stories? u.s said it wasn't uncommon for the rank-and-file to be listening to other people's voice mail. can i ask you now about the

extent of knowledge within the news of the world to the voice mail interception? at this stage i am not asking you to name names but i'm asking you to give an impression was the voice mail hacking within the news of the world would you describe it as widespread or would you go further and say endemic? >> for the period that you are talking about - it was legal it was before 2001 although there seems to be a gray area here >> you were working for the news of the world. >> actually it was something that might have been done as a last resort because funnily enough if you remove some of and then do whatever you might do to get the engaged tone if acted self-incrimination is a shame.

it is illegal to listen to someone's messages before 2001 knew how widespread was knowledge that people were intercepting? >> the told li that it was done by my colleagues before i realized. >> lippitt a little more blunt. dador editors know the voice mail was being intercepted? can i live now to the question of the express'? >> we did all these things for our editors for ambassador brooks you and you only have to

read the column in the bazaar where the pulsar is leaving messages and pop star beat's phone at two in the morning for a drink. to realize anyone was committing a crime, so my assertion has always been the brought the practice wholesale and was appointed deputy editor and i couldn't believe he shouldn't be made the editor and they should have the strength their conviction to say yes sometimes you to enter into the gray or black il legal area for the good of the readers for the public good, and yes sometimes we asked

reporters to do these things. they say we didn't know they were doing that. and then there were two others. the press release of all my colleagues and and if you look at what i said we've never said anything bad about any one who worked with will or anyone of my colleagues most of the more with me say in how these people ramos through wall is from scot-free if anything because i was jumping up and down going, you know, police investigation is a fake,, arrest me. eventful the dated a proper investigation and it was the unearthed and i have two senior police officers and the other

one. spinet comprehensively if i may say so about the news of the world must ask now about your time that the soviets pressed. while you were working for the sunday express to your knowledge or any members of the staff hacking voice mails? >> the answer to this note. there wasn't money available for the investigation there wasn't news of the world outside someone's house it cost tens of thousands of pounds. >> when you were working for the national enquirer to your knowledge or any members of the staff hacking and to the voicemail? >> i never did them but this is post 2006. >> i would now like to move to

the question of the conversation that you have with mr. hugh grant at the public house which he tape-recorded and perhaps we could have on the screen document, the reference for which three and then for. >> evidence about this document earlier on the page the displayed in the screen on the left-hand column about half the way down you were asked some questions about the daily mail

and if i take it up this starts with mr. grant saying it wasn't just news of the world it was the mail and then we see the conversation that followed. are you familiar with that? >> that is a bit of a misunderstanding. they were the biggest pain in britain who had the best story in circulation for the news of the world and the mail. i wouldn't know if they hacked into anything. >> hugh grant breaking down on sunday but i would like to at least defend the mail in that regard and i think i also have

proved the story at ting ting tariffs and i will come to that in a short moment. having made clear your position on the daily mail, could i ask you first you wanted to make clear your opposition as to whether or not you have ever hacked into hugh grant's phone? >> i don't recall having his number and i don't recall having been in a store situation where it would have been useful. >> moving now to the question of the ting ting story since mr. grant gave evidence to the ann curry you've been in contact with it to say that you know something about the source of the story about land.

>> he said he or she used to him over the tapes and also to the police in which we have sufficiently incriminated myself if i suggest that lunch for me to go to prison popular possibly some things very much but i think by ordering him to get him under the section 21 as well and he did if he didn't give them to you is that right? >> perhaps i can steer you back to the story. >> i remember it well. >> you provided us with a letter the technician should have a redacted copy of the letter in which the solicitor will be passed up to the technician out to be displayed on the screen and redacted.

>> thanks for doing that. you did your ravens number as you say so in return, the source of the ting land or door friend refers to it as ting ting may be that is the nickname it didn't come from the phone hacking it came from one of your friends in the road from a letter saying basically i would like to stick some surveillance outside and get a good set of pictures and that was on april 12th 2 weeks before news of the battle broke the story where there was a

mixup. >> do you know who sent this letter to you? >> it was done unanimously after hugh grant published his tapes but it was kind of hilarious in a way literally the star comes around and is going to build a new toilet seat based on that. >> the bottom line is based on what you know about the source so far as you are aware it wasn't the result of any phone hacking. >> it is mr. freely. >> evidence to which the inquiry is expecting to hear from mr. alistair campbell he says

from a firmer journalist to have it to the extent of the activity has described the hacking is the tip of the iceberg. have you done that? >> we was just in the context of the length we had to go to get the story ha going back to the case. >> i'm asking you whether you told mr. campbell. >> it was something you wouldn't be able to stop the investigation because the last thing you want to do is to somebody off pretending to be somebody who had a weird phone call so that's where the news of the world went wrong in the sense that became the first instead of a last-ditch i put that down for the inexperience and of course you didn't have the editorial and the first

thing in the editor asks when they bring a story is how do you know when and where did you get. so if you can actually play that tape that says me triet it might i won't be tapping you to the ground and have my way with you you can hear that from the horse's mouth himself you know that you're not going to get sued. if you remember elton john took for a million pounds in your job as an editor is on the line if you don't absolutely no you're not going to get sued for a story that you run so i would put the inexperienced at that degree of proof and not just letting the story because you have the experience to know you wouldn't get sued for that.

so it became commonplace. >> he goes on to say when making the film on packing and i interviewed him and from the remarks they were not broadcast on the advice of the ec and the included his observations that phone hacking was widespread across the street and not confined to the news of the world. did you say that? >> probably. islamic the senior editors and executives of the news of the world were aware that this and other practices were taking place and on occasion listened to some of the messages. did you say that? >> yes. >> what was the statement that he believed phone hacking was wide spread across the main street? >> yes i thought news of the

world was one of the least bad offenders. estimate and similarly it was your comment with the senior editors and the executives of news of the world on occasion to some of the messages, is that true? >> when i wrote the story and i saw it wasn't in the office i would occasionally play a tape that would allow us to run that story in the been the editor would go okay we got its. mr. campbell goes on to city and other meetings i have had with him he has said that the use of private detectives was wide spread across the newspapers. is that in addition to hacking private detectives and journalists on vacation outside the homes fitted with technology capable of listening to

conversations taking place inside based on the assumption of people whose moguls at home and land lamb, did you say that? >> we have read the case and when prince charles -- it's not just mobile because if you use the land claim it as a radio transmitter as well so it came from a totally cordless one. >> when you gave the answer were you referring to the matters a very long time ago or were you meaning to refer to matters in this millennium? >> absolutely no but it still goes on because we were chatting over lunch and i can't have investigative journalism anymore

but the other day someone came into the bar and offered the digital scanner and i said i felt like transporting when everyone comes to offer heroin and after the list of all personal phone numbers of all the police officers in particular the force that is a great source of information with a great story but now i can't do that kind of thing anymore so yes the criminal underworld still use that. do journalists still use the additional scanners? no, if you can buy them in america and the things you can do to make them work in the u.k. but its technology that's beyond me. i'm sure as soon as you invent a new level technology someone in taiwan will be listening in in

the last 20 years. >> can i ask you know about the e-mail packing? to your knowledge was the news of the world responsible for hacking into anybody's e-mail account? >> i don't remember that. >> dalia understand that you have been made aware of the technology which allows information from smart phones in particular the iphone to be taken surreptitiously. is their right? >> yes. it is always been to be the case actually hugh grant i think the reality is yes when you get a

text it can be transmitted to someone else's phone. >> do you know whether or not journalists are using that technology? >> no. to be honest you might be able to legislate against the reporters and photographers but you can't legislate against all the italians and mexicans are of the world. they won't be watching, they don't care they get pictures of some one and send it back to mexico it doesn't matter of all what to say or what you pass. >> moving from that form of hacking to a different information gathering --

>> mr. maldon is entitled to break so let's have five minutes did you impersonate others to run stains? >> i was either a drug user from a dealer or a millionaire from cambridge. can i ask you now about the question of photographs was it ever considered an acceptable practice to steal a photograph to print a news of the world? >> yes. looking for it now.

luckily i wasn't in that. anyway, and was a difficult job in a dangerous job. islamic you may not wish to hold that one up. islamic a little early for that. >> this is only paper. >> perhaps you can tell us how the news of the world got ahold of that photograph. >> really obscure photographer who published the circulation magazine to the fashion world said that's pretty good and copied it with my camera and

both of them are going back into the editor then said we've got this here is naomi campbell topless and sarkozy's wife and never in a million years because that kind of thing and he said [inaudible] so we did that and then pay for them at the other 1i held up was the mistress. >> you describe your role in the matter is that can you tell us in broad terms how news of the world attain a photograph of the alleged mistress? >> sent to france because they try to track down the woman who took the verge india while the but we couldn't get a picture of

who with her new boyfriend. the idea was he treated in the british prime minister and i think they were in the house in the than the copyright and i read a timer that the brooks said mo we are not and he said no well done, put it in the paper which is what we did. but it was in france so it was a legislature that comes under. >> can i ask about the arrangement for the payment that were made with the sources did you ever come across where they were the information taken the source wasn't paid? >> all the time, yeah in fact i

did a story about two girls and a bubble bath with robert deniro and one of the most foolish enough to tell me all about that and getting pictures without signing a photograph you promise someone to grant or 20 or whatever, to me for a spread in two or three for a page lead. because we didn't pay her the bonus for the of the source of the story but we have a story already that's why it is so useful for people who need to approach the newspapers that kind of story even though he takes a very large cut. >> is it right that the news of the world to encourage people to come forward in the story in exchange for money? >> yes that there is absolutely

nothing wrong with that. i used to see if we didn't have the 15 feature writers we would have to million reporters because either the news desk or use of the world the phone would ring up all the time every few minutes and we saw victoria walking in can i have timber and? cannot have ten grand? the british public would supply us a vast majority of sources is what they wanted to read and what they gave to us and found a way. >> i would like to do with the payment and especially clear to you i'm not asking you to tell me about anything you personally might have done but are you aware of the news of the world

that came to police officers for information? i don't think much of the british police forces. there are no sherlock holmes among them and i would prefer to stick my surveillance there and outside and get some dirt on him as a member of the establishment to be ridiculed and locked down the and to get into bed with the police and a couple of times i have been sent on stories from the crime and policemen you have to have relationships to risk the career by giving a story that is when to make it again and gramm for the page lead ten

me before a spread and that's the risk. for some stories that is a lot. for example the whereabouts were worth much more than that so maybe if one phone calls as indeed we got from one of the bodyguards that yes they will be landing at the helsinki airport this afternoon have 30,000 lbs. please i need to pay the mortgage? yes because that was a defining story about the link but yes it was a good way of getting the best stories which the british public left out. islamic you told us in the things about the security because i rewind for a moment to

the police do you have any feeling based on the extent to which police officers are prepared to accept money in return for information? >> not as much as they did but now it's very difficult to offer pretty much anything. it was the correct time and they got progressively harder to get information from the police unless it was an official way. but the one who might be referring to the daughter came from a policeman who was paid and i wrote that story that was the cry -- crime guy that

facilitated. >> can i ask you now in your experience as a journalist of workers paid by a newspaper you have worked hermetically confidential them permission? >> when i joined about two years prior to that there was a girl whose name i can't remember. she specialized medical records. there is a difference between you answering the phone to a receptionist who has just for example seeley positive pregnancy test because what you can't put your fingers in your years there is a difference paying someone to go into that record so did we do that?

there was that medical record i haven't thought much about that question. i wasn't told. rebekah brooks door was always open. >> perhaps i can ask an ethical question however the information comes to you if it is confidential medical information the story published is there a difference? >> again, my feeling is i am there to catch people out who lie to us and roll over us is opinions fine by me and has no problem at all if the target was worth it looking at someone's

medical record and i can't remember if i have or haven't put the end does justify the means. mckenzie said if you get the story you don't get caught to get a pulitzer prize and get sent to prison so i don't know where you are going with that question. >> are you aware of any of the newspapers that you have worked for paying for information from credit card companies? >> actually i am fairly sure that at the start there were those who were able to attract people's credit histories a vague recollection, not something i thought about particularly but again, i see nothing wrong with knowing for example if the government in the bank of finland has huge debt

because that might be relevant to the way of approaching the job and something worth publicizing. >> that's twice used in the same sort of example. now the government of the bank of finland -- indolent indolent. >> this is the point of the circulation and the public getting what the public wants. the one that because the circulations these high therefore it is with the public wants to read and i think the public is clever enough to deal with the judge and jury of what goes on in the newspapers if they don't need an external charge and a jury to decide what should and should not be published because if the of distaste for it they would stop monument. >> what about the person that is the victim? >> the ordinary people who buy the product set themselves up

for being the victim also there is no difference between an ordinary man or woman or celebrity or someone who rules over this because it sells the product. this is what the british public wants. there is a market for it. >> understand. >> the same question in relation to telephone companies paying for information from a simple british telecom for the mobile phone company? >> of citric the news got they were more into begging to try to pick people out there rather

than pay someone. that's why they made so much money because he was really good at that. islamic moving into the question of privacy investigations, how extensive in your experience was the views of private investigation by the news of the world? >> it was too expensive. i spent five years as a features reporter and then i was suddenly confronted with rebecca brooks and i really couldn't believe that. they paid 4,000 pounds. that's a lot to be weakened if the senior feature writers that need to be doing this and the answer was actually most of the time we didn't and it was the least the reporters who would make the most number of phone calls because they didn't want to go outside of the house the what the agency to do it for

them so they put a picture without doing any work and in reality all let me it was somebody to drive up their to follow whoever it was we suspected of wrongdoing rather than waste this money on the unnecessary detail. i would never want to bring anybody until this will just tipped them off. you have much greater chance of getting a kiss on the doorstep or what ever you are looking for so i try to bring it in but not only that i wanted to know exactly what they were doing so i demanded what they had and we are paying you to enter the 40,000 pounds a week to do this so how do you do it? they didn't want to answer because it was in their interest to tell me how to obtain a kimber for the mobile phone

because that is where they were making their money and finally i said i'm paying for that tape send it in. they were so much worse than anything i could have done. you look more closely into a private investigator is and then in one case that it had agreed quite respectable in the sense so i stopped using it as far as i heard the tape i thought this is really going to get us into trouble. what a lot of trouble with did get us into. >> what do you think it was going to get?

>> it was being paid by us doing unnecessary things i was a waste of money and no group could, that as much as i try to rein in there were other parts of the newspaper particularly inside of the news pressing the accelerator. can you give an indication of the different private investigators you were aware were being used? >> one of my colleagues did a shot at every private investigative firm in britain i spent an afternoon with private investigators conference just saying some of your points are going to have stories that it might want to get revenge by also seem to news of the world

which would be good for your client and make another 10,000 pounds in most private investigators will have one good a story on their books maybe once a year or once every two years but them it was quite a good way to go. >> we used a private investigator who was totally legitimate and married to a police officer and exactly where the boundaries were and never stepped over them and didn't commit an illegal act. >> can you give the inquiry indication of the range of the different tasks of things the were required? >> one of the hardest things is working to the deadline and you need to get an interview you just want to know where that person is you can go to the house and more on the door and it's quite hard in the old days

we used to go to the records to get names and first husband and the maiden name and go to the mother and they could do that in about ten minutes and it is just amazing to kind of triangulate for the most likely address is. and that's legal that's using computer technology you can buy off the shelf. it's quite expensive and it's quite hard to work effectively but a good legitimate private investigator can address in a matter of minutes because the deadline is going and someone is getting there before you. >> you give the impression was for reasons would that be right as opposed to trying to find a

method of obtaining information that was perhaps it one step removed from the journalist and therefore do not able to some extent? >> you have to be more specific. >> was there any sense, use you in the news of the world if they commissioned a private investigator to do something that could be blamed on the investigator and not on the journalist? >> i can see that being one step away from that. i can't cross that and equally i think there is a -- there was a mistake that some of my colleagues have made and that is why there is a paper trail as an investigator with some experience i didn't need to go down that route.

i was the only one who knew about it and i didn't have to pay anyone for it. and i think the decent investigators unless i was sitting here i would laugh at the police when they would say we are going to arrest you tomorrow and i know what i did and how much is paid to do things i wouldn't be anything stupid to do someone to do something illegal. so i don't think you are going to get like that at all but some people did have that philosophy to put it one step away.

>> going to a new topic on celebrities you have an experience in pursuing celebrities in the past? >> yes. >> and was at a common tabloid tactic? >> we had about 12 but we could soar to around because you can park outside but if the sankar is there on thursday it is quite handy in the absolutely loved this. it was good fun. how many jobs can you actually have car chases with? it was great. islamic and afterwards? >> it hadn't changed really.

>> can you speak up please? >> there was a change. they were quite clear in distancing ourselves from the paparazzi bill would be told take the fastest car you can get. >> was any consideration given to safety and celebrity? >> connaughton the celebrities would absolutely love it. i will give an example of brad pitt more recently his wife gave this to him for a birthday present and it's about 15 pounds as the number one star he's not one to complain about that and

sienna miler, who is she? but he would come out on his big chopper and they would laugh going around for the evening so he had a very positive attitude towards that aspect of the job which was a whole lot of fun. >> was there any thought given to the ethics whether it was the proper thing to do? spigot think it was fun from both sides. >> do you have any experience of journalists searching through people's rubbish to find information for stories?

>> whether or not this is legal. estimate there is no need to tell us about your own involvement. what we are interested at this stage is whether or not the practice went on. >> i think most journalists, and the included will find the content incredibly interesting. it gives you a great starting point. is it illegal to go through someone's rubbish? even in the 90's. >> what i'm saying is there is no need for -- what you did and what i would like to know is whether the information as to the best of your knowledge. >> yes. >> covert surveillance.

>> i was trying to get a cocaine smuggling ring in i remember i got to know the smugglers quite well and i was sitting among them into the old days they had to recorders and sometimes a battery pack strapped to his back and a wider going appear to the video into the two guys that would knife let the job with a hat. i remember i was getting close to the end of the tape and i knew i'd been there about 45 minutes and i was waiting for the kick and i had to get out of

their and i should carry on the was like a test and they put a lot of cocaine and that. [inaudible] it was an extreme state of society and panic and i was being tested and that's the kind of pressure that you are under when you are doing investigations. it's not easy. you can't just go up to someone and say you smuggle a lot of cocaine? you can't. you have to be more clever than that. >> we understand the need for covert activity in those circumstances. >> to the is in relation to celebrities.

>> presumably without the same. >> i must admit after my closest your experience i felt i am not getting paid enough to do this, to get killed. the most dispiriting thing in my life was when i was embedded in the force and they gave me a joking leader and i was really enjoying and remember writing a page in the times once and pieces for the telegraph and i thought this is great i hope i can stay a long time. they are not doing very well can you come back?

>> i'm on a satellite phone can i come back to london? i suppose i lost my taste for the british public who now seem to have turned against journalists somewhat. >> with engaging in the covert celebrities was there any consideration as to whether or not it was an ethically proper thing to do? >> absolutely. hugh grant puts on makeup and then complains about that. i don't want to talk about my privacy. sienna miler, what does she do? she has a crummy phill -- film out. euskad r