>> right. >> in fact it says here her new book -- >> i was told that was the second. in fact it's the third. the point that i am asked to put it is that your publishers then tell the daily mail to say that you are very angry with the publication of this article. is that right? >> no. i do not recall ever asking my publishers to tell the newspaper i was angry. this as you know, you told me i would be asked this question shortly before we came into court. and i have been racking my brains as to what this refers

to. i have no memory effort of complaining through my publishers to any newspaper. that's not the way i would complain to a newspaper. i would go to the pcc or i would go to a lawyer i suppose. ..

and i just felt that giving more press felt like overkill. so i said to them, can they not just stay. and they've are very understanding of god. in fact, it did run into the radio but james -- gymnast to. i think what seems to happen as the males who published this article when i hadn't given interview at that time. however, i made no complaints about that. it may be that -- it may be that cemented my publisher said she is not to impress, but i never gave instruction for a complaint to be made. so i'm slightly mystified. >> actually when one reads of its information does guide your

content to recognize in the public domain except that it means your daughter. >> to whom my daughter already dedicated the first book. >> so people know the name of your daughter. >> all right. >> i think we need to understand where we are with this piece. it is perhaps some of our knowledge in the context and affects. >> i understand entirely why it was appropriate going forward. there is honor their article. >> i'm having difficulty. >> i know it's in hand. >> there's an article in march 2003 that was written by the sunday mirror. worse than the understatements clack >> i don't think it's in the statements. not in the final version that may have appeared in a previous

trial, which is what we're referring to. and i think called dr. murray at your beckon call and just for fairness sake, i also point out the sunday mirror did publish an apology. i don't have that, so i can't say in what form the apology appeared. i know that's the article. >> you said you wanted to mention it, some mention that. tell me about it. >> thank you. ms. malone wrote a short piece in which she alleged injury be in that language that i have married a guy sure and was attracted to him partly because of his job and coming in now, he was someone who was doing well for our job and my husband has now given up his job. i remember quite vividly at the beck and call.

the language was really very strong. and no phone call had been made too many of my representatives to check the veracity of the statements in the tree to resume husband and in 10 years of marriage has never taken any time off work except on holidays and there has never been a period when he has sent them working or studying for something similar. and this was another instance of -- i feel extremely strongly about this and i wish to mention it because my husband clearly is not a celebrity and he has no wish to be a celebrity. and again, this is damaging misinformation because his colleagues, those who weren't in his immediate vicinity and were aware he was at the house where he was working side he had indeed thrown in a career that he works so hard at.

>> it's not where he'd been spent working. >> here changed hospitals, which seemed to be the reason that he disappeared from one hospital. to not be entirely at my beck and call. again, one of the reasons why i was keen to his evidence here today is because albeit upside down the people who have very dubious pleasure of being married to, related to or live next-door to some of entries to the press. and i felt that that article is spacious. it was clearly wholly untrue. and it was sending a horrible message out to my husband's colleague, some of whom he might wish to work with or for a complaint. yes, we did receive an apology,

but it's the old case of i like this girl but the truth has got its boots on. there are still people for some time who believed my husband had indeed decided to give up work to become house has made to his wife. although i think nowadays there are few people who still believe that. anyway -- >> i understand why you wanted to tell me that. >> thank you. >> and your conclusion, please sum up your positions slowly, very hopefully. can i ask you a more general question that or not of your experiences as you have explained them. do you have any recommendations or suggestions in which you read the inquiry to carry away the results of which you have told the inquiry this afternoon. >> this is not a compulsory

question. >> i do not have been a very fully worked ideas. i can only say that i feel the pcc is ruthless. but it offers very little in the way sanctions chinese papers. it's the risk with the sides advance, that we need and i should send the unit nearly opposed to the states control of the media as i think everyone is, but i do feel that we need a body that has teeth, that can impose sanctions. and i agree with several of the people who have inquired before me when they say prior notification would prevent a significant amount of damage, particularly the were the articles there can learn. apart from that, i can't pretend

i have a magical wand. >> i would've been perfectly content if you would've had thank you very, very much indeed. there's a long afternoon. thank you. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> could you tell the inquiry your full name, please. >> paul mccollum. >> and your address? i don't think you need to give your home address.

>> the council in dover. >> thank you very much, chief. and i understand you are professionally trained journalists. >> yes. >> and that you initially gained experience working for the regional press classics >> yes. >> and then he moved and experience working for the fleet street news agency. >> yeah, i started with thomson regional news paper and i was a journalism student and i finished top of my class and he's now the minister of education. >> well, thank you for that. he then obtained a position as a shifter, working today in 1992.

>> forcal mckenzie, yes. >> obtained a staff job working not the sunday sports. >> does news editor there for three months. it was a bit of a postgraduate silliness. >> and then you work for an agency. >> yeah, it was in france. >> before working for "news of the world" for a period of seven years, including working for part of that time at the deputy features editor. >> yes. >> he then moved to the sunday express for a period of around two years. >> any investigations that were there quite >> he also worked for the national enquirer. >> the last three years before they had a body out and couldn't afford a european correspondent and a longer. >> is it great that you are not

semi-retirement to the journalists working party is at your nearest him partly as public inquest >> yeah, a listed building has seven bedrooms and is closed off the top floor. it's quite important. we need a fighter escape to the listed buildings can say you can't have a fighter escape. but yet again i come up against government annoyance. so that's why i'm working two jobs. >> thank you. i think we can concentrate and your experience as a journalist and not just the public. and can i start by asking you some general questions about the pressures of the job as a journalist? you mentioned in some of the interviews he's given byline counts. can you explain what the byline count process is? >> yeah, you can do electronically now, but before the days of word search, you

have to get more than 12 stories the year in the newspaper. that doesn't sound very many, but given we are weekly newspaper in my longest investigation on a present governor who is spanking female presence out so he could have his way with him took three minutes to stand up and do they not. actually sometimes 12 stories has become a bit of a burden, which is why i count all of my stories out, just as it came to the crunch. i've done 15 or 35 this year. >> i see. could i ask you to speak up a little please. the consequence of not getting sufficient violence was what? >> well he got fired. >> with the threat of the facts on the bush plan for the journalists generally quite >> yeah, you can get a front page on sunday. but by next tuesday got to have three fresh ideas.

and that's a sign for a few months. but week after week after week, that becomes a real pressures to build up a list of contacts from police officers to be eyes, to basically anyone who could give you a story. an evening on those fixes to help you keep your job. >> is there a sense of competition with your fellow journalists quite >> massively. i think clyde goodman called foul of phone hacking because he was getting on a bit. he was royal editor had a really high salary with money of people who were 25 years old would've taken his job and spent longer on doorsteps and work harder. so we're constantly snapping on his heels to stay one step ahead of them, got in a phone hacking. >> is there also competition with competing titles? >> very much so.

the whole problem with working for a weekly newspaper is he got a story on wednesday and got three days to sit on it, hoping no one else is going to steer from you. the number of times i've spent the second half of the week locked in a hotel room in a foreign country with somebody, for example, princess diana spent two weeks with evan amsterdam just so no one else could get to them. so yes, they are constantly in van from other journalists. i remember buying up a couple who won a marriage, who was a blind date marriage. and we flew them through the bahamas. it was a lovely story. we spent two weeks they are. we spent the entire two weeks fighting men from the feet so we kept it exclusive to ourselves. so we're sneaking them out of hotels at 2:00 in the morning and having car chases it down to

stay down. not a really enjoyable way to spend my career. >> flights to the bomb accepted, was there an experience of the resources available to you to research stories? >> funny enough, no. when i started under "news of the world" at unchained peers, our budgets were positive. i mean, when i took it with a million pounds a year come which of the biggest budget of any newspaper department in the country. so i have a lot of money to spend -- actually wasted, but i prefer to keep the money to people who could tell us a good tale about a corrupt politician or, you know, a sports star because they do well in terms of circulation. i never felt any financial

constraints. but we had a big pot of money or they never paid anybody. >> on the question at the mansion to that last stand, what was the question of the editors and the cultural tone in the newsroom who worked in? scored to a new editor coming to an established culture? >> well, this has been at news of the world with 167 years old. i actually felt like it is a british institution just gives you bought it. >> i'm having difficulty. i'd be very grateful to us because just a bit louder. thank you. >> my first editor, piers morgan kerry matched set the trend. he wants at all costs pretty much i don't care which you have to do to get that story.

i mean, he wanted to be number one. he was driven to so a million copies a week, which is a lot. you've got to sell 230,000. there's nothing in comparison. at one point you can say half the population of the country we're beating what what we had written. and so i think in a sense we were, in terms of the powers of the patent, were the most powerful journalist in britain because it the biggest leadership. what i wrote was red. >> there's so little about the editor and his influence on the culture at the newsroom. can i ask you now about proprietors when you were working for "news of the world," was that your experience as a proprietor sought to influence the content that was published. >> i can think of a couple of

examples that would point to the exact opposite when the ground got caught and she was a black. and we put her on the front page. i remember rupert or doc same way we are putting that on the front page? does not permit toned down a little? which is to find the way to the newspapers. i mean, i thought it was a fantastic front page. and i only met him once. he came into the newsroom and he was just a little guy with the tweed jacket and he didn't have a swipe card to get into his old building. he got stuck between two doors. i thought my god, his guys in charge of the biggest media empire in the world and campaign to the newsroom.

>> the sort of intervention you mentioned with the divine brown story, was it usual to have an intervention, or was that an exception? >> well, he spoke to his editor who was rebecca brooks or piers morgan. apart from them having looked over my shoulder one, you know, just to see what i was up to for no particular reason, he would've never spoken to some of his lowliest. >> moving on to the topic of the theory of journalism, i understand this you have, for example, covered the gulf war. >> kosovo, yeah. >> immigration stories such as bank at. >> yeah, i spent a night and i think pretty well given up the investigative journalism about five years ago when i got hit in the head with a lump of concrete

who are pretty intent on killing me. before that i smuggled myself across the channel just about about everywhere imaginable but then sometimes assisting. >> on the question of what happened to convicted, he wrote a controversial piece, didn't you, as part of the "news of the world" naming and shaming campaign? >> yeah, that was rebecca brooks good idea and was initially came into gregg kaminski's girlfriend to research and she couldn't find any. she went on to the library can be an avid listener radio, had done a program on the boy scout. so i said goodbye to follow up on radio form. can we have a look at the workings of the database and went down and plundered about 50 pedophiles who had and abused

children and served a sentence and were now out. the whole point was that, you know, i might live in my house with my children. for the first time ever we know that peter the lives next door and he just serve 10 years because he a child as young as like yours. so possibly one after another good thing, but that was the most visible. >> their number of things i want to ask you about that story. the first is you refer to blogging about some of the information necessary. when he did that come idg given a consideration to whether or not it would be in the public interest? >> yes, it's always in the public interest. an income of circulation defines what is in the public interest. i see no distinction between what the public is interested in public interest.

there clever enough to make a decision whether or not they want to poke their hand in the pocket and bring out a pound and buyer. i don't think it's the job if anyone else to force the public to be able to choose that you must bring this. you can't move out. >> that's not quite the point, is that? it's not that anybody is forcing the public to be able to choose. it is rather whether it is appropriate to do in such otherwise might be considered unethical in some wider goal. or maybe you don't think there is an ethical -- >> no, i think the public is clever enough. a dozen in someone like max mosley to say what should be published. and the reason why "news of the world" sold 5 million copies this because there were 5 million thinking people and that's what they wanted to read. that's what drove the paper. we were demure to society. the daily mirror in fact.

putting lawyers in charge of what the public and i think you're going down the wrong group. >> and the targets of your story, neither here nor there, is that it? as a serious question. >> yeah, no, if that found that targets to cecil, they would not have voted the universe was true. >> see what is of interest to the public. >> what it is of interest is that they put in their pocket and buy. >> the consequences of the naming and shaming campaign was that there was necessary public to senator, wasn't there? >> yes. >> did you think the coverage been in such about a certain amount of hysteria?

>> yeah. in a bizarre way i felt slightly proud that i had written something that created a pediatrician was the case with the ego aspect of what the recalls have latched onto. but in another way, the public was absolutely outraged. for the last 20 years you could have a child for the next with family of four hurling over the fence at their children and even sometimes letting them babysit and the abuse would carry on. >> i'm sorry. i just want to check whether i'm reading this correctly. i fell asleep you proud that i had written something that creates the right thing at a pediatrician. gas. >> how do you judge what you do in your career? like to have an impact and that

was one story that certainly had an impact. i mean, you yourself would like to spend your career in a back room, never having created or achieved anything. and i was the achievement was not having a pediatrician. but he was writing a story of such an impact that we are writers because the public is so furious and it needed to be checked. i didn't think he met what is just right. that's the point. >> that's not how it is reported. >> or hops to pick up a little more up more about which you felt, did you feel that she had a certain power or you can read a story, which would provoke a reaction from a very large organ? >> yeah, he says that on the

train watching people read things that i had written. it's not one of the reasons why we do it? i like the idea that this paper wasn't just the biggest paper in britain. it is the biggest paper in the english-speaking world. clearly we were doing something right. there was a certain influence that went with that. >> did it not or what the subject matter with? >> no, that was decided by the reader. he simply mirrored back what he wanted to read. i mean, the whole point of taking circulation into the best paper you can be to achieve the number one circulation is you have to appeal to butchery and whatnot three. and if they are the judge and jury and if they don't like it. the churches are having to in a better three nebat on, though simply start buying the product.

the reality was in the millions. this is what the people of britain want. >> and to that extent be ingested justifies the means. >> yes, i think so. i think in order to -- one of the things we had to do at news of "news of the world," in effect he was made out because every article i've ever read is recorded and their legal department would sometimes when a transcript of it if we thought we were going to get sued about it. so i've ever try to do is to write truthful articles and use any means necessary to try and get to the truth. and there's so many barriers in the way that sometimes you have to enter into a gray area and it

would sometimes be applauded for entry. because it's a gray area. there's more than in war zones. i used to get a death threat at least once a month for 15 years of my career. i never paid a bill in my young name. you know, my wife received death threats so there were times when we had security guards living outside the house. i had to do about and live in a hotel. it's not an easy life. my surveillance was sacked a life. it's a huge sacrifice. for the first time in my life right attended the public they want to know what i've done for a living.

the biggest circulation english-language paper in the world. and i was quite happy and proud to do it, which is why i think fun hacking is perfectly acceptable tool given the sacrifices that we make. we want to get to the truth. i give you an example. we went to cover the iraq war as an embedded correspondent for the raf. and i was attacked at the british harrier force. we spent five weeks in the desert at the base, living with the ground crew peered ..

no problem at all saying i didn't actually had his foe in but if i had proven he was not an honorable man because he stood up in front of 200 people in the church and said to his wife i will look you combine elon with you, this is my pledge yet he slips through the corner and has sex with his secretary so i want to know the man that was partly responsible for sending our voice to that death is an honorable man and to that end yes i put my hand up and say i went through his phone and

went through his fingers because that is a more important truth in this nonsense which is not good for the country. if you look at the country the journalists tim jeal alana about the same, they've got about 20 or 30 and we laugh at those countries. we are so much better than them, but i am here because the section 21 noticed severed with my colleagues under arrest and all life ever done is try to tell the truth. >> i am not threatening to send you to jail for speaking the truth. i am requiring you to tell me if i didn't want to hear from you i wouldn't have done that. and i am giving you a platform to say what you are singing. isn't that what it is about?

>> fi suppose it is that having said that i'm quite happy to be here given that. thank you. >> the feelings that you have just expressed were commonly held in a news of the world room. >> it's very hard to get the story. you don't go up to a priest and say good sermon and are you a priest? it doesn't happen. you don't say hello i work for news of the world. you have to go to a degree to get the truth. i collect that particular example perhaps i could explore the methods that are used by the tabloid press and certainly in your experience hot can deal

with the conversation is it your evidence that before 2000 the use of scanners to intercept conversations involved in stories was widespread among journalists? >> yes it was. >> and that practice has diminished as a result first of all of the switch from analog to digital and second because of the bigamous gamble? >> just as an example the taken their radios out of the scanning range and fundamentally what people fail to realize is in the phone all it is is a radio transmitter so you transmit to the airwaves and anyone can have effective the radio but a much

larger band with and that all this. that is why tony blair didn't have one of these and robbie williams didn't have one of these in the same category because it is just so easy for anyone to listen in. >> i've been asked to put the next question to you and we were growing up to believe that your father's phone was hacked and i've been asked to suggest to you that there is an irony between that fact and the willingness of journalists to intercept conversations. do you see any irony? >> my father was a journalist and i used to receive phone calls from people and he was looking after the fact that maybe they ordered us to be

kickstart and i just remember my parents of the time because what a joy it was that in the 90's -- dahlia understanding of it is that it wasn't actually be legal and do we want to live in a world where the only people who can do the hacking or the journalists? no for the brief period of about 20 years we have had a free society and if you start jailing journalists for that this will be a country that is left up by iran and china and turkey. >> can i move now to the question of the interception? in your experience hell, and maza voice mail interception by

journalists at the news of the world? >> of the rank-and-file journalist it wasn't uncommon. journalists swat members with each other and i think guice -- swapped -- speed i should stop you there. i'm deliberately asking questions about the culture and you should not understand my questions as to the asking about what you personally did unless you want to tell us. you don't have to tell us. >> the point being it is ironic given what you just said that you are absolutely not obliged to commit yourself in any way whatsoever and you ought to know that. how you choose to answer the question is of to you what i will give you the warning.

>> for the public good point of this inquiry then as the police asked treat the as a criminal surely to prove politicians are dishonorable men and as such we have dishonorable motives when they send them to be killed in iraq and afghanistan is more important than jailing me for saying i hacked david beckham's phone for example. >> you were saying that the interception of voice mail was for the rank-and-file. were the intercepted voice-mail messages used as leads for the further investigation of stories?

>> what happened is the mobile phone was invented in the 90's and the taiwanese cannot quickly so six months later you have the scandal lamarca at d'huez which of the late nineties and the actual lease which of about three years ago finally. it was a school yard track practice by many teenagers across the country we now call phone hacking and. it is simply bringing of the mobile phone to sell the film that you are the owner and then the old days you put in for zeros because the was the default mode. so great many people from - thinking their husbands were staying out late may have a lesson. i remember the program friends had an episode one of them packed into the phone of the mother went to see if they were

having an affair. in what a joke that was. at least 10% of the population, maybe 20%, just hit naim on their girlfriend or boyfriend, perhaps your son or daughter is staying out late and you want to know where to or she is, that is a criminal act to listen to their messages. so yes, obviously journalists are going to do that, too to people that were going to give them stories. the problem comes sometimes when if you did hit long when you bring them up so i can say in all honesty once i rang up david beckham expecting the phone to ring because he wouldn't normally answer the phone but actually did and -- >> how did you get my number? i didn't have his own in this instance because he answered

rather courtly. and call waiting and so then again, at two in the morning he was much better at these things than the rank-and-file journalists. >> to address a list from my question can i take it that the interceptors messages were used that leads to investigate stories? u.s said it wasn't uncommon for the rank-and-file to be listening to other people's voice mail. can i ask you now about the extent of knowledge within the news of the world to the voice mail interception? at this stage i am not asking you to name names but i'm asking you to give an impression was the voice mail hacking within the news of the world would you describe it as widespread or

would you go further and say endemic? >> for the period that you are talking about - it was legal it was before 2001 although there seems to be a gray area here >> you were working for the news of the world. >> actually it was something that might have been done as a last resort because funnily enough if you remove some of and then do whatever you might do to get the engaged tone if acted self-incrimination is a shame. it is illegal to listen to someone's messages before 2001 knew how widespread was knowledge that people were

intercepting? >> the told li that it was done by my colleagues before i realized. >> lippitt a little more blunt. dador editors know the voice mail was being intercepted? can i live now to the question of the express'? >> we did all these things for our editors for ambassador brooks you and you only have to read the column in the bazaar where the pulsar is leaving messages and pop star beat's phone at two in the morning for a drink.

to realize anyone was committing a crime, so my assertion has always been the brought the practice wholesale and was appointed deputy editor and i couldn't believe he shouldn't be made the editor and they should have the strength their conviction to say yes sometimes you to enter into the gray or black il legal area for the good of the readers for the public good, and yes sometimes we asked reporters to do these things. they say we didn't know they were doing that. and then there were two others.

the press release of all my colleagues and and if you look at what i said we've never said anything bad about any one who worked with will or anyone of my colleagues most of the more with me say in how these people ramos through wall is from scot-free if anything because i was jumping up and down going, you know, police investigation is a fake,, arrest me. eventful the dated a proper investigation and it was the unearthed and i have two senior police officers and the other one. spinet comprehensively if i may say so about the news of the world must ask now about your time that the soviets pressed. while you were working for the sunday express to your knowledge or any members of the staff

hacking voice mails? >> the answer to this note. there wasn't money available for the investigation there wasn't news of the world outside someone's house it cost tens of thousands of pounds. >> when you were working for the national enquirer to your knowledge or any members of the staff hacking and to the voicemail? >> i never did them but this is post 2006. >> i would now like to move to the question of the conversation that you have with mr. hugh grant at the public house which he tape-recorded and perhaps we could have on the screen document, the reference for which three and then for.

>> evidence about this document earlier on the page the displayed in the screen on the left-hand column about half the way down you were asked some questions about the daily mail and if i take it up this starts with mr. grant saying it wasn't just news of the world it was the mail and then we see the conversation that followed. are you familiar with that?

>> that is a bit of a misunderstanding. they were the biggest pain in britain who had the best story in circulation for the news of the world and the mail. i wouldn't know if they hacked into anything. >> hugh grant breaking down on sunday but i would like to at least defend the mail in that regard and i think i also have proved the story at ting ting tariffs and i will come to that in a short moment. having made clear your position on the daily mail, could i ask you first you wanted to make clear your opposition as to

whether or not you have ever hacked into hugh grant's phone? >> i don't recall having his number and i don't recall having been in a store situation where it would have been useful. >> moving now to the question of the ting ting story since mr. grant gave evidence to the ann curry you've been in contact with it to say that you know something about the source of the story about land. >> he said he or she used to him over the tapes and also to the police in which we have sufficiently incriminated myself if i suggest that lunch for me to go to prison popular possibly some things very much but i

think by ordering him to get him under the section 21 as well and he did if he didn't give them to you is that right? >> perhaps i can steer you back to the story. >> i remember it well. >> you provided us with a letter the technician should have a redacted copy of the letter in which the solicitor will be passed up to the technician out to be displayed on the screen and redacted. >> thanks for doing that. you did your ravens number as you say so in return, the source of the ting land or door friend

refers to it as ting ting may be that is the nickname it didn't come from the phone hacking it came from one of your friends in the road from a letter saying basically i would like to stick some surveillance outside and get a good set of pictures and that was on april 12th 2 weeks before news of the battle broke the story where there was a mixup. >> do you know who sent this letter to you? >> it was done unanimously after hugh grant published his tapes but it was kind of hilarious in a way literally the star comes

around and is going to build a new toilet seat based on that. >> the bottom line is based on what you know about the source so far as you are aware it wasn't the result of any phone hacking. >> it is mr. freely. >> evidence to which the inquiry is expecting to hear from mr. alistair campbell he says from a firmer journalist to have it to the extent of the activity has described the hacking is the tip of the iceberg. have you done that? >> we was just in the context of

the length we had to go to get the story ha going back to the case. >> i'm asking you whether you told mr. campbell. >> it was something you wouldn't be able to stop the investigation because the last thing you want to do is to somebody off pretending to be somebody who had a weird phone call so that's where the news of the world went wrong in the sense that became the first instead of a last-ditch i put that down for the inexperience and of course you didn't have the editorial and the first thing in the editor asks when they bring a story is how do you know when and where did you get. so if you can actually play that tape that says me triet it might

i won't be tapping you to the ground and have my way with you you can hear that from the horse's mouth himself you know that you're not going to get sued. if you remember elton john took for a million pounds in your job as an editor is on the line if you don't absolutely no you're not going to get sued for a story that you run so i would put the inexperienced at that degree of proof and not just letting the story because you have the experience to know you wouldn't get sued for that. so it became commonplace. >> he goes on to say when making the film on packing and i interviewed him and from the remarks they were not broadcast on the advice of the ec and the

included his observations that phone hacking was widespread across the street and not confined to the news of the world. did you say that? >> probably. islamic the senior editors and executives of the news of the world were aware that this and other practices were taking place and on occasion listened to some of the messages. did you say that? >> yes. >> what was the statement that he believed phone hacking was wide spread across the main street? >> yes i thought news of the world was one of the least bad offenders. estimate and similarly it was your comment with the senior editors and the executives of news of the world on occasion to some of the messages, is that true? >> when i wrote the story and i saw it wasn't in the office i

would occasionally play a tape that would allow us to run that story in the been the editor would go okay we got its. mr. campbell goes on to city and other meetings i have had with him he has said that the use of private detectives was wide spread across the newspapers. is that in addition to hacking private detectives and journalists on vacation outside the homes fitted with technology capable of listening to conversations taking place inside based on the assumption of people whose moguls at home and land lamb, did you say that? >> we have read the case and when prince charles -- it's not

just mobile because if you use the land claim it as a radio transmitter as well so it came from a totally cordless one. >> when you gave the answer were you referring to the matters a very long time ago or were you meaning to refer to matters in this millennium? >> absolutely no but it still goes on because we were chatting over lunch and i can't have investigative journalism anymore but the other day someone came into the bar and offered the digital scanner and i said i felt like transporting when everyone comes to offer heroin and after the list of all personal phone numbers of all

the police officers in particular the force that is a great source of information with a great story but now i can't do that kind of thing anymore so yes the criminal underworld still use that. do journalists still use the additional scanners? no, if you can buy them in america and the things you can do to make them work in the u.k. but its technology that's beyond me. i'm sure as soon as you invent a new level technology someone in taiwan will be listening in in the last 20 years. >> can i ask you know about the e-mail packing? to your knowledge was the news of the world responsible for

hacking into anybody's e-mail account? >> i don't remember that. >> dalia understand that you have been made aware of the technology which allows information from smart phones in particular the iphone to be taken surreptitiously. is their right? >> yes. it is always been to be the case actually hugh grant i think the reality is yes when you get a text it can be transmitted to someone else's phone. >> do you know whether or not journalists are using that technology? >> no. to be honest you might be able to legislate against