the italians and mexicans are of the world. they won't be watching, they don't care they get pictures of some one and send it back to mexico it doesn't matter of all what to say or what you pass. >> moving from that form of hacking to a different information gathering -- >> mr. maldon is entitled to break so let's have five minutes did you impersonate others

to run stains? >> i was either a drug user from a dealer or a millionaire from cambridge. can i ask you now about the question of photographs was it ever considered an acceptable practice to steal a photograph to print a news of the world? >> yes. looking for it now. luckily i wasn't in that. anyway, and was a difficult job in a dangerous job. islamic you may not wish to hold that one up.

islamic a little early for that. >> this is only paper. >> perhaps you can tell us how the news of the world got ahold of that photograph. >> really obscure photographer who published the circulation magazine to the fashion world said that's pretty good and copied it with my camera and both of them are going back into the editor then said we've got this here is naomi campbell topless and sarkozy's wife and never in a million years because

that kind of thing and he said [inaudible] so we did that and then pay for them at the other 1i held up was the mistress. >> you describe your role in the matter is that can you tell us in broad terms how news of the world attain a photograph of the alleged mistress? >> sent to france because they try to track down the woman who took the verge india while the but we couldn't get a picture of who with her new boyfriend. the idea was he treated in the british prime minister and i think they were in the house in the than the copyright and i

read a timer that the brooks said mo we are not and he said no well done, put it in the paper which is what we did. but it was in france so it was a legislature that comes under. >> can i ask about the arrangement for the payment that were made with the sources did you ever come across where they were the information taken the source wasn't paid? >> all the time, yeah in fact i did a story about two girls and a bubble bath with robert deniro and one of the most foolish enough to tell me all about that and getting pictures without signing a photograph you promise someone to grant or 20 or whatever, to me for a spread in two or three for a page lead.

because we didn't pay her the bonus for the of the source of the story but we have a story already that's why it is so useful for people who need to approach the newspapers that kind of story even though he takes a very large cut. >> is it right that the news of the world to encourage people to come forward in the story in exchange for money? >> yes that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. i used to see if we didn't have the 15 feature writers we would have to million reporters because either the news desk or use of the world the phone would ring up all the time every few minutes and we saw victoria

walking in can i have timber and? cannot have ten grand? the british public would supply us a vast majority of sources is what they wanted to read and what they gave to us and found a way. >> i would like to do with the payment and especially clear to you i'm not asking you to tell me about anything you personally might have done but are you aware of the news of the world that came to police officers for information? i don't think much of the british police forces.

there are no sherlock holmes among them and i would prefer to stick my surveillance there and outside and get some dirt on him as a member of the establishment to be ridiculed and locked down the and to get into bed with the police and a couple of times i have been sent on stories from the crime and policemen you have to have relationships to risk the career by giving a story that is when to make it again and gramm for the page lead ten me before a spread and that's the risk. for some stories that is a lot. for example the whereabouts were worth much more than that so

maybe if one phone calls as indeed we got from one of the bodyguards that yes they will be landing at the helsinki airport this afternoon have 30,000 lbs. please i need to pay the mortgage? yes because that was a defining story about the link but yes it was a good way of getting the best stories which the british public left out. islamic you told us in the things about the security because i rewind for a moment to the police do you have any feeling based on the extent to which police officers are prepared to accept money in return for information?

>> not as much as they did but now it's very difficult to offer pretty much anything. it was the correct time and they got progressively harder to get information from the police unless it was an official way. but the one who might be referring to the daughter came from a policeman who was paid and i wrote that story that was the cry -- crime guy that facilitated. >> can i ask you now in your experience as a journalist of workers paid by a newspaper you have worked hermetically confidential them permission? >> when i joined about two years prior to that there was a girl whose name i can't remember.

she specialized medical records. there is a difference between you answering the phone to a receptionist who has just for example seeley positive pregnancy test because what you can't put your fingers in your years there is a difference paying someone to go into that record so did we do that? there was that medical record i haven't thought much about that question. i wasn't told.

rebekah brooks door was always open. >> perhaps i can ask an ethical question however the information comes to you if it is confidential medical information the story published is there a difference? >> if the story is published, is there an ethical difference? >> again, my feeling is that, you know, i'm a journalist. i am there to catch people who lie to us. and any means would be fine to me. i would have no problem at all if the target was worth it, at looking at someone's medical records and i can't remember if i have or if i haven't, but i have to say i haven't because i would be implicating myself.

the end end just justify minds. if you don't get you get a pulitzer prize. if you get caught you get sent to prison. i don't know where you're going with that question. >> are you aware of any newspapers that you have worked for paying for information from credit card companies? >> yeah. i'm fairly sure at the start there were p.i.'s who were able to track people's credit histories or where they've been with credit cards, again, a vague recognition of something i haven't thought about particularly, but, again, i see nothing wrong with knowing, for example, if the governor of the bank of england has huge debts because that might be relevant in the way he operates in his job and something worth publicizing, for example. >> that's twice you've given the same sort of example. rule over us now and now the

governor of the bank of england. >> yeah. >> do you distinguish because a moment ago you were talking about a celebrity. >> yes. >> this is the whole point about circulation and the public getting what the public wants. they want that because the circulation stays high, therefore, it is what the public want to read and i think the public are clever enough to be the judge and jury of what goes on in the newspapers and they don't need an external judge and a jury to decide what should and shouldn't be published because if they had any distaste for it, they stop buying >> they may not. but what about the person who is the victim? too bad? >> the ordinary people who buy the product set themselves up for in a sense being the victim also. there really is no massive difference between an ordinary man or woman, a celebrity or a -- you know, someone who rules

over us because it all sales the product. it is clear this is what the british public want to read. there is a taste for it. there is a market for it. so -- >> i understand. >> yeah. >> the same sort of question in relation to telephone companies. are you aware of any of the newspapers that you have worked for paying for information from -- for example, british telecom or for a mobile phone company? >> that was more the kind of tricks that news corp. got into. the people we employed were more into blogging and trick people out of their pin codes. i mean, that's why glenn made so much money because so much reason he was really good at that. >> moving then to the question of private investigators, how

extensive, in your experience, was the use of private investigators by the "news of the world"? >> it was too expensive. i spent 5 years as a features reporter and then as soon as i made deputy features editor, i was suddenly confronted with the budget that rebekah brooks had before me and i really couldn't believe it. in some points we paid steve 5,000 pounds. so we really need to be doing this and the answer was, actually, most of the time we didn't. and it was just the laziest reporters who would make the most number of phone calls to the p.i.'s because they didn't want to go to middlesboro. they had agencies to do it for him and the p.i. to turn the plates around. all they really needed was someone to drive up there in a car to follow whoever it was who we suspected of wrongdoing

rather than waste all this money on unnecessary detail. like i said, i would never want to ring anybody until i spent a week in a van outside the house and you're going to tip them off. if they're unsuspecting, you got a much better chance for a kiss on a doorstep or whatever else you're looking for. i tried to rein in. but other than that, i wanted to know exactly what they were doing. so i demanded the blogs what they were doing. how do you do it? now they didn't want to answer because it was in their interest not exactly to tell me how to, you know, obtain a pin number for mobile phone because that's where they were making their money. and finally -- and i said i'm paying you for that tape, send it in. when i listened to some of the tapes, they were awful. they were so much worse than

anything i could have done and i thought who are these people? and you look more closely under who a private investigator is, is he a failed professional footballer and in one case he was a helz angel and steve had a pedigree and was quite respectable in a sense. excuse me. [coughing] >> so i stopped using the hells angel as soon as i used the tape. and i thought this is really going to get us in trouble and what a lot of trouble it did get us into. >> what sort of trouble did you get the hell's angel was going to get you into? >> well, he was so bad by it. he was being paid for us for doing a lot of unnecessary things, that was a waste of money and no good could come of it. and much as i tried to rein it in and put a bit of a break on

it, there were other parts of the newspaper, i believe it on the side of news of pressing the accelerator and i lay the blame there with andy coulson. >> and can you give us an occasion of the number of different private investigators that you were aware were being used? >> well, they sort of came and went. i remember one of my colleagues did a mail shot to nearly every private investigative firm in britain. i spent an afternoon at a private investigator's conference saying, listen, sometimes your clients are going to have stories that, you know, the wife might want to get revenge by also selling it to the "news of the world" which makes him another 10,000 pounds so we did actively regret private investigators. and most private investigators will have one good story on their books, maybe once a year

or maybe once every two years but if you tap out 50, then, you know, it wasn't -- it was quite a good way to go. >> did the sunday express use private investigators as well? >> we used a private investigator who was totally legitimate and i think was married to a police officer and knew exactly were the boundaries were and never stepped over them. and didn't commit any illegal acts. >> going back to the "news of the world," can you give the inquiry an indication about the range of different tasks that were required of private investigators? >> one of the hardest things is when you're working to a deadline and you need to get an interview, you just want to know where that person is so you can drive to their house and knock on the door. and it's quite hard, in the old days when i worked for fleet street news agency, we used to go to the records office, get a marriage certificate, and get the name have the first husband, you know, the maiden name and the mother. the private investigator can do

that in just about 10 minutes it's just kind of amazing and they triangulate where the most likely address is. and we got this one, the mother lives here and i'm almost certain he's here and he drives there and that's good. that's legal. that's using computer technology you can buy off the shelf. it's quite expensive and it's quite hard to operate it effectively but the good legitimate private investigators can, you know, spin around an address in a matter of minutes. and they're worth paying because the deadline's going and someone else is going to get there before you. >> you give the impression that it was for reasons of efficiency. would that be right as opposed to -- >> yes. is in front trying to find a method of obtaining information that was perhaps at one step removed from the journalist? and, therefore, deniable to some extent? >> you're going to have to be

more specific. >> was there any sense that if you -- i use you for "news of the world." if "news of the world" commissioned a private investigator to do something, that if dodgy means were used, it could be blamed on the investigator and not on the journalist? >> yeah. i can see that being one step away from it. yeah, i can't cross that but equally i think there was -- that was a mistake that some of my colleagues have made and that is why there is a paper trail that links them directly and say as an investigator, with some experience, i didn't need to go down the route. i felt a lot more comfortable using my own blokes. i was the only one who knew about it. i didn't have to pay for it. there was no paper trail that led to anything that i had done. and i think the decent investigators of the "news of

the world" the only thing you will get on him unless i was sitting here i laugh at the police when they say come in or we're going to arrest you tomorrow at scotland yard. you haven't got anything because i know what i did and i know who i might have paid to do things and i wouldn't have paid -- been so stupid to have paid someone to do something illegal is then going to bill me for it. you know, so i don't think you're going to get people like myself or mazza like that at all because they never do an illegal act anyway. some people did have that philosophy, let's put it one step away. >> turning to a new topic at pursuing celebrities, do you have any experience at pursuing celebrities in cars? >> yeah, yes.

>> and was that a common tabloid tactic? >> yeah. we had -- at the "news of the world," we had a set of cars that we could switch and swap around. i mean, you can park outside of paul mccartney's on wednesday but if said car is on there on thursday, it's quite handy to mix and match. yeah, i absolutely loved giving chase to celebrities. it was -- before diana died, you know, it was such good fun. how many jobs can you actually have car chases in. it was great. >> and afterwards? >> yeah. >> could you speak up, please. >> there was a change. i mean, all "news of the world" photographers had to go to work wearing a suit. and we were quite clear in distancing ourselves from the

paparazzi, but, no, i would be told by the features department, take a fast car, see what you can get. >> was any consideration given to safety when pursuing a celebrity? >> quite often the celebrities would absolutely love it. i'll give an example of brad pitt who we've been doing more recently. i mean, he's got a big chopper, a big motor boat. i mean, his wife gave him a ducati for his birthday present and he would come out and being in the south of france, there's about 15 paps. that is his status of the number 1 star and he's not one to complain about it. and another one there's 15 paps outside of his house and he would be on his chopper hey, guys, let's go. and have a laugh and that was

his sport for the evening. he had a very positive attitude towards that aspect of the job, which was a whole lot of fun. wae proper thing to do? spigot think it was fun from both sides. >> do you have any experience of journalists searching through people's rubbish to find information for stories? >> whether or not this is legal. estimate there is no need to tell us about your own involvement. what we are interested at this stage is whether or not the practice went on. >> i think most journalists, and the included will find the content incredibly interesting.

it gives you a great starting point. is it illegal to go through someone's rubbish? even in the 90's. >> what i'm saying is there is no need for -- what you did and what i would like to know is whether the information as to the best of your knowledge. >> yes. >> covert surveillance. >> i was trying to get a cocaine smuggling ring in i remember i got to know the smugglers quite

well and i was sitting among them into the old days they had to recorders and sometimes a battery pack strapped to his back and a wider going appear to the video into the two guys that would knife let the job with a hat. i remember i was getting close to the end of the tape and i knew i'd been there about 45 minutes and i was waiting for the kick and i had to get out of their and i should carry on the was like a test and they put a lot of cocaine and that.

[inaudible] it was an extreme state of society and panic and i was being tested and that's the kind of pressure that you are under when you are doing investigations. it's not easy. you can't just go up to someone and say you smuggle a lot of cocaine? you can't. you have to be more clever than that. >> we understand the need for covert activity in those circumstances. >> to the is in relation to celebrities. >> presumably without the same. >> i must admit after my closest your experience i felt i am not getting paid enough to do this, to get killed.

the most dispiriting thing in my life was when i was embedded in the force and they gave me a joking leader and i was really enjoying and remember writing a page in the times once and pieces for the telegraph and i thought this is great i hope i can stay a long time. they are not doing very well can you come back? >> i'm on a satellite phone can i come back to london? i suppose i lost my taste for the british public who now seem to have turned against journalists somewhat. >> with engaging in the covert

celebrities was there any consideration as to whether or not it was an ethically proper thing to do? >> absolutely. hugh grant puts on makeup and then complains about that. i don't want to talk about my privacy. sienna miler, what does she do? she has a crummy phill -- film out. euskadi to read a series of articles for the inquirer on robert patton some and i can't believe there was sienna miler. egoi. no, the joke i need to hugh grant when he walked him the

title was i've never heard of sienna miler until she started going about her privacy and it's the same with hugh grant. the pictures i took a hammer hard to sell and i might have a device him your career will do that all of a sudden ten times the number of photographers are outside his house. ..

>> it happens with katie price. i missed her going to the hair dressers and she knew i missed her she had a umbrella down. and i saw her going to a hairdressers and hello, katie and i had been nice and she came out of the hairdressers and i was going to -- she gave me the finger through the hairdresser's door. and i went thanks, love. and i sold it for two grand and she knew exactly what she was doing. i missed her and she knew, oh, dabble, i've gone to the air dressers without being papped and she came out and gave me the bird and i give you another example involving -- >> perhaps i could stop you there and ask you this so i can

understand it. are you telling us that in your view there should be no such thing as privacy? >> yeah. in 21 years of invading people's privacy, i've never actually come across anyone who's been doing any good. the only people i think who need privacy are people who do bad things, privacy is the space bad people need to do bad things in. privacy is particularly good for pedophiles and if you keep that in mind, privacy is for pedos. fundamentally, no one else needs it. privacy is evil. it brings out the worst qualities in people. it brings out hypocrisy. it allows them to do bad things and, no, once the british public wise up to the true perils of privacy -- one spinoff, for

example, if there is a privacy law, your secrets are going to be much more valuable than they were before. so i think of an example of somebody who lives in a free and open society who, for example -- an example, someone wants to abort a child but you can do that privacy but if that person goes on and get a part in east enders that becomes a very valuable commodity and that gives a lot of power to that person who has that secret. whereas, if you live in a society where, yes, you can have an abortion but you must do it openly and you cannot have any privacy, in the same way as legalizing heroin will you know, get rid of the drug dealers, privacy will have some really bad consequences not just for democracy but in a whole host of ways i don't think many people have bothered to think about

yet. >> can i test that against the article you wrote about jennifer elliott. jennifer elliott was the daughter of dennis elliott. >> yes. >> you wrote a story about her in 1995, didn't you? >> yeah. >> and the theme of the story was ms. elliott was begging and was working part time as a prostitute. >> she was during the second bit but yes. although, yeah -- no, i mean, it's one of a couple stories that i regret. i remember interviewing also lena zavaroni after she was caught stealing a 50-pound bag of sweets and then i interviewed her and she killed herself, i think, as well. and jennifer elliott went on to overdose after an article that

absolutely humiliated her, and it was unnecessary and i really regret it because i got to know her fairly well and i quite liked her and she was in a very vulnerable position and her father had just died of aids and she had taken too. she was on methadone script which i knew about, and also there were heroin needles in her bin. god knows how i knew that and there were notes of the phone numbers of her dealers in her bin. so i knew exactly where she was at. and the fact that she was begging outside chalk farm station came to our crime reporter from a police officer who was surprised when he told to move on who he had told to move on because in fact denim elliott had been in trading places and had been an millionaire and his daughter lived in camden she didn't have the money to get a 10-pound bag

or whatever she needed. i went too far on that story. someone crying out for help, not crying out to a "news of the world" reporter and i -- yeah, i said well, here's a couple quid begging and if you give me 50, you can come back to my place and would you have sex for 50 pounds and the tapes were running and she goes, yes. i mean, was she a prostitute? and it gets worse but i don't need to go into the really sordid details of it because it's not something children should be listening to. no. i then took her back to her flat and took a lot of pictures with her topless, it turns out, and

then i think -- she was a bit obviously in the fwrips of an addiction and when she went on g mtv after -- on the monday morning, she said she described me as her boyfriend. so i had befriended her. i had never gone anywhere near her in a sexual way and i did really want to help her but i was driven to write the best story i could, the best story i could was, here is the golden girl on the red carpet as her dad goes to pick up a golden globe and he used to take his daughter with him and she was really pretty and here she is with dreadlocks and covered in dirt, begging at the train station offering, you know, passer-by sex in return for money. and also a police officer had come across her and possibly should have helped her as well instead of ringing up the "news of the world" and getting paid for that. s, but then i heard a few years

later that she had killed herself. i did think, yeah, that is when i really regret. there's not any. >> does that experience make you think in fact there are to be a protection for privacy? iraq now, because the "news of the world" leadership didn't decline after that. it didn't put anyone off from buying it. this particular jury of our leadership were okay with that. and i just don't think if you want to live in a free society you can argue that you're not allowed to read this. i think people should africanists beach and people should be a little choose their own judgment about whether or not they want to buy something, no matter how distasteful it is. that is distasteful to me. but i'll tell you out, sometimes

i wouldn't afford the news of the world. but the "news of the world" carries a non-peered >> cannot talk now about praying mantis clerics i understand there was an occasion when you gave prior notice that the story to jefferson king. >> yap, yap. >> and when you give that prior notice, and in that case, what was their object if clerics >> he was a gladiator, show gladiators. and he had this contract that if he ever had any problems with drugs as it was a children showed you as a role model, he'd be in tightly fine. now the sunday mirror has set up a sting to catch him buying coke and we had a mole inside the sunday mirror who would tell us exactly what they were up to. so we knew they had been dumped buying coke.

so i rung him up and said you're in big trouble because you've been caught lying. but you know, tom's limitation tell me all about it and i'll turn you into in my root. do it like this. and he went and he wasn't very bright. yes i've done a line of. he may don't say that. thanks very much. he hasn't really worked cents. >> you consider that ethical? >> at, i think people who buy class a drugs are as possible for a lot of misery around the world. so, yes. >> how much legal side was there at the work you did when you're

working for for the tabloid press? >> absolutely everything you read him a cutting book is on tape. he would not be allowed to get -- there is a second offense not to do an interview that wasn't recorded. if there is any point of problem with it, is the editor with a bit concerned, he would maybe sit down and transcribe it and they take three hours to transcribe in our state. and then tom kron would want to -- i would listen to the transcript. >> did you get the impression that the judgments that were being made prior to publication that were aimed at ensuring compliance with the law, or were they based upon a judgment of how much profit would be made from publishing the story weighed against possible

financial consequences of the collection? >> no, it was to make sure we didn't get sued. the editor would want every story that was possible to go in the paper. and it was tom kron's job to make sure that any attempt to sue us with the past i've been actually the video. not every story i wrote, but at least once a month someone would try and attempt to sue over a story i'd written because simply with the wave making a lot of money. and they would deny it. they would deny everything they'd save. and then you turn around and say actually do at the transcripts? they back away. i actually ended up writing about 300 stories that is that the world. i didn't lose a single.

i was really tired of my quotes. >> on the question of expenses. can you tell us a little bit again without any personal examples of the culture in the tabloid newspapers that you work for in relation to expense this? first of all, "news of the world." how would you describe the attitude too expensive at "news of the world"? >> in some regard, we weren't that well posed. my front salary is deputy editor was only 60,000 a year. and as a way to bump up salaries we were given a certain amount of leeway. so i claim another 15, 20 years, which was legitimate. is that what you mean?

>> alice the way, for example, one guy was led inside because he wasn't at the office very much. he said listen, you've got to start making trips to lancaster. so it's almost a direction from above. you will claim or be led inside. it's not illegal. we weren't fooling anyone. >> without telling us what you personally did, was it a case of people putting an excessive expensive claims that did not match the actual expenditure? >> well, yeah, you can be slightly created. but also goes one way to get rid of that as well. for example, i remember i was trying to get back from kosovo.

we just couldn't get out of there. the only way out was flying the last planes and they were charging so much money for that slave. and it was one time in my life he put his hand in your pocket. he knew as of that particular we. we can't do that check point. and we've not disparage with machine guns, but missed. so we want to get out now. and yeah, we were allowed a lot of leeway. it was a bit of give-and-take. do not been paid a huge amount of money to be there. but that's great. putting two or three grand worth of expenses as the thank you.

>> can i ask a question, which had been asked about the relationship between the news of the world are you aware of any sticks and carrots would be provided by the newspaper to the police to turn a blind eye to anything which the newspaper was doing? you have to say the way it developed from the first time that margaret thatcher wanted to get a lot did and said come up with you back me? and he did. and then the next time when tony blair flew to sydney when it was his turn to ask murdoch, we back me? and he did. and he won the election. and then it comes cameron stern and he does the same.

but for the previous 21 years, you've got the pistol parties, elisa prime minister saying we have a lot to go. we are going to turn a blind eye to whatever illegality they might be getting up to. so the police intern will be saying the yet to decide news international but equally this is the way we will do it to. the answer but murdoch way rebecca brooks. so for 21 years you have a culture of illegality of phone hacking and feeling with expenses expenses if you like has gone on under rebecca brooks. so what we have is a future prime minister cozying up and being molded by their criminal

in chief, the association, cam and selection is based on criminality. and that is why i was so excited when i first met davis. that's were i'm going to stick my surveillance van outside of rebecca brooks house because fundamentally, what a great story. james didn't care when all kind of scheming how they're going to try and make cameron into the next prime minister. and if rebecca broke ends up going to jail for the things that she did and which helped cameron become prime minister at that well, this is my watergate. i thought of going to bring down the government. i didn't mean to bring down "news of the world." that was a shot that are not send around a closer. but i do think i'm entirely responsible for the reopening of the investigation, which led to the notebook's been gone through and ended up with the realization that the phone had

been hacked. and here we are today. >> you've explained what she think was the relationship between various politicians and the murdochs. is that something you have direct knowledge of or not? >> yeah, i mean i spent a while going around all the pubs and restaurants were these to meet each other, hanging around outside their houses. i mean, you don't need to regulate the press. the press will eat itself. we will regulate ourselves. not only did we defeated at the third. but i am outside my farmer editor's house and i've also somewhere in there called robert murdoch a who did this story of work rot in their and the daily mail living off immoral earnings because there'd been a number of face goes to advertise in the back of their publications. i mean, when i fronted him up

about that he was like thank you very much. i hadn't noticed. so, you will point to a decent journalist has the story of anybody could be a celebrity, your own boss if there is a good enough story. and that's the job of a journalist to keep the journal of the day and write about what happens in about those who have power over us. >> is what she said earlier in variance or about the police and how they might have behaved towards "news of the world," was that a matter of speculation was that something you have to acknowledge of? >> well, i have had to acknowledge in the sense that they made the er to give evidence under caution, which means i would've been arrested first before given evidence. and i refused three times, saying they must commit to give

evidence. in return i'm in dover. drive job and arrest me. instead of doing that. no new evidence. case closed. i can't jumping up and down about that. and that's why it was pretty open and that's why we are here today because both the policemen and gates and the other guy fell on their swords because clearly there had been a cover at because we know the assembly journalists and become between the politicians, journalists are too cozy. i'm a lot more comfortable with that side of things.

and i prefer to combat that question the insane i wouldn't rarely cozy up to a police officer. >> i ask you now about the pcc. do you have any opinion through your experience as a journalist about how a fat is the pcc has nsa regulator of the press? >> now, people have stepped back a bit. you know, the true days of the 90s when it was so much fun, before diana died, people do take notice. and people are reigned in because of editors don't want to be take off in terms of pointing to the oprah prager and see if had too many rulings. i think he needed new editor because the public opinion will

go against us and it's the god of circulation again come which fundamentally is just a product. and that product has to file, but it's not selling very well. build newsagency went last because they were not the commissions to keep the journalist and work anymore. i mean come you don't need to clamp down on press freedom because the price is flailing without any restriction. so there is a changing industry and i think 10 years time, the newspapers will be very different. so i don't know how it will come. >> can i ask you this, have you been lent time at any time by news international by any type of the murdoch empire but a time to speak out.

schuyler bbci site news international and fewer drove past me. it was like well done. it has fundamentally, the little man, the reporters were screwed big time by rebecca brooks and andy colson. for that reason alone, they would never risk trying to probably tape-record them and threw it back in their faces. and finally, he said at one point in your evidence that others were referring to either need in comparison to "news of the world." are you in a position to give an informed view about whether or not others were evidence base that i'm thinking of?

>> yeah, i have shifted for a number of different newspapers. we move around. i was offered a job with the people about 10 years ago under this shift as the nearer and the news editor, which is over to "news of the world." and it's quite small community. so one guy does a really great way of getting the story and that's why he's been had i made to go and work for another newspaper. is he going to leave it behind? no, i'm not going to say anything about any other newspapers because i'm pretty unemployable as it is. so i better not carry on down that route. >> is there anything you would like to say to assist him in making recommendations for the press?

>> yes. this all came about due to the phone hacking of milli- dollars phone. i don't think anyone gives two hoots about the celebrities, a lot of them who are being paid by the same companies who paid me, you know, 20th century fox and news international. but last summer i had a 2-year-old son who went missing missing -- he only went missing for about 20 minutes. then i felt the emotion that mrs. dowler felt when her own child went missing. it's one of the most powerful emotions you can feel. the men sprinting up and down the high street and out to the parks left the site gave at the garden have been. and it's and then the pair

appears to have information to allow that hacking a and it is difficult for me to say that actually because i know how corrupt the police can be as run by the hacking of milli- dollars phone was not a bad thing for a journalist, a well-meaning journalist who was only trying >> the hacking was not a bad thing, for a well-meaning journalist who was only trying to help find the girl. i did a world service a little while ago from mexico city to nairobi for people there just instantly assumed that the police are corrupt and more likely to commit a murder than actually solve one. and so they were with me, and they said how lucky it was the dowlers have bright, enthusiastic, well-meaning

journalists on their side also looking for milly. and how annoying it must be for the inept colleagues, you know, to hide away information and, you know, it's not such a bad thing. there was a number of articles that i wrote on milly dowler. i'll show you one. i was the first journalist to put a link to a railway that may have been -- that's my daily mail link, a career-ending story, that -- our intentions were good, our intentions were honorable. we were doing our best to find the little girl and the police are incompetent and there are other mothers without their children because of the police's incompetence and i felt the