history. teach time i talk about lincoln the image of gandhi comes to mind. instinctively this collection between lincoln and gandhi may appear to be simple. it takes a devoted student of history, a gifted storyteller, a scholar and an intellectual to help us develop a better projection of these two great figures whose legacies transcend boundaries. we have just that kind of a person in our midst. professor rajmohan gandhi is a passionate advocate of human rights, the rights of minorities in india in particular, and freedom of speech. he left the indian delegation to the united nations human rights commission -- commission. he also led the moral rearmament movement in india called the initiative of change in an effort to battle against

corruption and inequality in india. he was the chief editor of a newspaper meaning courage. it advance the cause of free speech especially during a period backward free speech was under attack in india. in addition to his active engagement in public life, rajmohan gandhi is also a prolific writer. at one point in his career, he was the editor of an indian newspaper called indian express. history is his passion. he is the author of definitive biographies on my hot -- mahatma at gandhi and several books that advance understanding of southeastern history. he is a well sought after figure all over the world and when we contacted him to speak at the lincoln museum he had just received the latest edition of his book, "a tale of two

revolts" and the american civil war. before i hand over the microphone to professor gandhi, a couple of trivia about him. in india, we attribute one's achievements to some degree to one's heritage. rajmohan gandhi baas lifelong commitment to fight for civil rights is not surprising for he is the grandson of mahatma gandhi. however, his ability to tell a story in beautiful prose with alec and wordplay is directly attributable to his eternal grandfather, and animate -- eminent leader in the struggle of india as a contributor to indian literature both in indian and -- on which is. president kennedy upon meeting

rajmohan gandhi commented, this meeting as the most civilizing influence on me. seldom have i heard someone presenting with such precision, clarity and elegance of language. he refers to the english language that rajmohan gandhi commanded so after listing to rajmohan gandhi previously in reading small portions of his this book, i must say that there is something to be said about the effects of lineage. i present to you professor rajmohan gandhi. [applause] >> after all that my forebears must be wondering how i will perform. thank you so much, president of

the india association and i do want especially to thank and salute director makhnevich for arranging this occasion and i thank all of you for coming this evening. now if i lived to be 90 years old, i would still be introduced as gandhi's grandchild. it is a blessing. yes, i am required to behave all the time, to be on to give, to answer questions patiently, to be a duty flout, but people are friendly and warm and they know i am gandhi's grandsons and this outweighs everything else. in part because i am gandhi's grandson but i hope not only because of that, i have been able to meet in the course of my long life famous persons like

martin luther king jr., john f. kennedy, pope john paul ii, the dalai lama, walt disney and others. yet, to speak here in the abraham lincoln rested -- presidential library is an utterly exceptional moment for me. for lincoln has been a hero of mine from my boyhood. he is second inaugural, which i agreed from time to time regularly, moves me to my depths each time i read it. at times i asked my class at the university of illinois urbana-champaign whether they have read lincoln's second inaugural. many of my students get embarrassed. i am sure that almost everyone here has read it. to those who have not, i say,

please read it, read it slowly, tentatively, two or three times if possible. you will look differently on the world around you if you do. it is a joy to me that the indians of springfield and connected areas are helping in hosting the gandhi exhibit and this talk by me around gandhi's life. indians like us who live in the united united states process to amazing privileges, their indian heritage and their american heritage. in many cases are children or grandchildren are linked by marriage to both heritages. americans to who get to no gandhi and indians who get to know lincoln can form a special and rich bond with one another, one which will benefit the world as a whole. this is way a major part of my

talk this evening will be on blink lincoln and gandhi. now they india america link is also why i wrote tale of two revolts about the 1857 rebellion. wanted you to know what americans at the time knew of the 1857 rebel and what they thought of it and let people in india at the time thought that they of their american civil war. i was excited to find that a group of indians in bombay had sent money for a union field hospital during the civil war. at least one of them, men called charles simon serving in company a map of the ninth new hampshire infantry, received a medal in 19 -- 1864 from the hands of president lincoln. it is governed that americans at the time knew far more about india's 1857 rebellion and

indians at the time knew about the american civil war. today, indians who know about the civil war are many times more numerous than americans who know about the 1857 revolt. throughout 1857, india's revolt was big news in the united states. indeed, an article in the journal published in philadelphia asserted that quote, the year 1867 will be henceforth known as the gear of the revolt. this is a newspaper in philadelphia, writing in 1857. here in springfield, two missionaries returning from india to america, reference dr. joseph warren, who had spent 15 years in india and reverend mr. hayes, who had escaped from the violence of the revolt, gave well-publicized talks on india and its revolt during the 18

50s -- 1858 winter. these talks, 153 years ago, were given here in springfield on days, during days when as we know from the lincoln log, the presidents to be were in the city hometown. it is possible that lincoln itself attended one or more of the these talks. he certainly heard about them but his good friends, or will hickman browning could become a u.s. senator after lincoln had become president tells us in his diaries that i the information conveyed to me thanks to the kindness of professor, dr. -- and recently here. or will hickman browning tells us in his diary that he heard several of these talks about india in 1857 given by these ministers, warren and hayes.

not only that, war and warren lived for spells and browning's home in springfield and served as master springfield westminster church. the revolt was thus talked about in lincoln circle. however, i could not locate any private or public remarks about 1857 in india that lincoln may have made. i would envy anyone who can look at such a remark and of course i would be enormously grateful. balbis compared up and connected history explores what was similar and what was dissimilar between india 1857 and the american civil war and how the two events influenced india's subsequent history. and one clear conclusion that emerges from this connective and comparative study is this. that india at the time

traditionally at the time lacked a lincoln like figure. willing to confront the moral question behind slavery and get anxious to conciliate southerners, lincoln was able to initiate the healing process in the united states. he also helped americans to the flex at the end not grind other way some by the civil war had cost so much in life, limb and treasure. the india of its time, or the british empire of its time, had no link in the equivalent, no one in authority who reached out to all sides are looked for the deeper meanings of the clash. remote from the scene in any case, prime minister of england did not even bother to do so.

his mind refused to acknowledge that there was an indian side. so that is one of the central lessons of my comparison. there is a missing factor in india that was not there. we know that lincoln was born in 1809 and gandhi exactly 60 years later. link in living half world away, was like gandhi's grandfather. there was a figure in between, one links to both, a father to gandhi. i wonder if you can guess who i'm thinking of? leo comstock born in russia in 1828, 19 years after lincoln and 41 years before gandhi was born. he lived until 1910 when gandhi was 41. he exchanged several letters

with gandhi. let me recall lincoln. in 1908, tolstoy was the guest of a tribal chief and a wildly remote area. gathering his family and neighbors, the chief of his tribe as tolstoy to speak of lincoln in the country in which he lived. as tolls they spoke of his love and admiration for lincoln, he saw that the basis of the men from the tribes were all a glow. when he finished he was presented we are told with a wonderful arabian horse. as for gandhi and tolstoy, the two drew close to each other through correspondence. in 1909, 40-year-old gandhi wrote publicly that he had endeavored to follow tolstoy, thoreau, emerson and other writers besides the masters of

indian philosophy. as we know, emerson and thoreau were lincoln's contemporaries. gandhi created outside johannesburg, gandhi was in south africa for 20 years as we know, that center was named tolstoy. when the russian died in november 1910, gandhi's wonderful obituary in his journal and south africa in the opinion was entitled, quote the late lamented tolstoy, the great. before tolstoy's death, and only two years after his comments on lincoln, the russian road to gandhi about the passive resistance that gandhi had discussed in his significant 1809 text in indian home row. the passive resistance as discussed by gandhi was of the

greatest importance not only for india but for the whole of humanity. just before he would die, in the last long letter that he wrote, tolstoy wrote again to gandhi and said that the non-violent resistance in part of south africa supplied the most weighty practical proven his worth of what he and gandhi together believe. at a tolstoy your work, teams to be far away from the center of our world, is yet the most fundamental and the most important to us. since i'm speaking about my grandfather, you should know what he said about his grandfather, lincoln. these are gandhi's porch written in south africa in 1905, when gandhi was 36 in the journal that gandhi had started in south africa, india and opinion. the journal was published is

published in english and also in -- here is the english translation of sentences from gandhi's article in the indian opinion, august 26, 1905. these are gandhi's words. it is believed that the greatest and noblest man of the last century was abraham lincoln. only a person who has a clear picture in his mind after the america of those days can properly appreciate lincoln's for shoes -- virtues. gandhi continues, nobody saw anything wrong in openly selling blacks and keeping them in slavery. the high in the low, the rich and the poor, so nothing strange in owning slaves. religious minded men, pastors and the like so nothing amiss and did not protect. some even encourage slavery and all thought the slavery was a divine dispensation and that the

black people were born into it. even those that thought that's labrie was wrong preferred to remain silent being unable to assert themselves for good and two-day gandhi continues writing in 1905, our hair stand on end to hear the accounts of the atrocities inflicted on slaves. they were tied up and beaten. they were forced to work. they were branded and handcuff. lincoln made them put into execution is resolution to change the ideas of men, ideas which had been in della blay carved on their minds. lincoln sacrificed his life in order to put an end to the sufferings of others, but linking can be said to be still alive for the changes he made in the american constitution are still in force and lincoln's name will be known as long as america indoors.

referring to lincoln lincoln civil war utterances, gandhi wrote, the language of the powerful speeches that lincoln delivered during those stormy days is sublime. i cannot speak of the lincoln tolstoy gandhi sequence without remembering the next noble link in the chain, martin luther king jr.. i will not in this talk speak about cain but i will quote from him. here is martin luther king jr. speaking in montgomery alabama on march 22, 1959. the world doesn't like people like gandhi. that is strange, isn't it? they don't like people like lincoln. they killed gandhi, this man who has galvanized 400 independence. one of his own fellow hindus felt that he was a little too favorable. here was a man of love, falling

at the hands of a man. there seems to be the way of history. the thank god the man who shot gun they only shot him into the heart of humanity. continues king, just as when abraham lincoln was shot, for the same reason that mahatma gandhi was shot, that was the attempt to heal the wounds of a divided nation. secretaries dance instead in second now he belongs to the agents. like lincoln and gandhi, king too when he was shot, frustrated the assassins in tensions. he entered the ages and into the hearts of all humanity. let us quickly notice the link and gandhi similarities. they are quite obvious. both were assassinated on a friday. both were killed for acting with deep convictions.

in each case when the railway train bearing lincoln's body or gandhi's earthly remains, the nation of each stood with reverence. both were brilliant lawyers. each was known for an ungainly appearance, awkward, in congress, strange, with the words generally use for one who was six feet four inches and also dawned a stovepipe hat and also for the other who is five feet six inches and ball. both at arms that were disproportionately long for their bodies and both had large flapping ears. someone would wrote of gandhi ts nose pointed downwards and his lovers lip pushed up to meet it. the poet who was a significant figure often addressed gandhi as mickey mouse.

here is how william hubbard russell of the times describes lincoln after calling him in washington in 1861. soon afterwards, the shambling loose irregular steady gait, a tall linklean man over six feet in height for stooping shoulders, long spencer was arms, terminating in hands with extraordinary dimensions which were far exceeded in proportion by the dimensions of his feet. russell spoke of lincoln's flapping and large projecting years. he said the mouth is absolutely prodigious. then those stands out from the face with an anxious inquiring air as though it was sniffing for some good things in the wind. the eyes dark, full ntp had said come are penetrating but full of an expression which almost amounts to sentiment.

this is lincoln at age 52. here is gandhi at the age of 52 as described in the american monthly, july 1922 by an american writer who had met him. gandhi wrote from -- enveloped in blankets, man of middle age or so he appeared, with strong strong -- hair, very large ears, pierce in the center of a loaf, the chin cleve shaven, expression alert, ice penetrating, glance direct. he greeted me with gentle courtesy. his english idiom and accent was perfect. he was not in the least -- his inclination, his inclination was to give me the lead. then there is humor.

if callers also noticed by one colleague in lincoln and gandhi. in each case they also ran into an extraordinary capacity to amuse others and to appreciate life's ironies. lincoln of course was a supreme master, accused of being two-faced and politics, he replied if i had another face what are they showing this one? gandhi by contrast seldom if ever told a joke. but he always made those in this company laugh. william shirer refers to him and a few others in the final year of gandhi's life which is at pain field yearwood state, in no time at all gandhi had us all laughing. if in this world of personalities, there is a single

man even half as charming as gandhi, if not met him. william shirer. in 1924, not long after a huge gandhi led bid, that to the world surprise, should british rule in india but then petered out and landed gandhi in prison. this is what gandhi said after his release from two years in a prison. napoleon planned much and found himself a prisoner. the mighty kaiser aimed at the town of europe and reduce to the status of a private gentleman. god had so willed it, let us contemplate such examples and be humble. here, while passing on that the fundamental truth, gandhi is also laughing at life at himself. now he didn't aim for a crown but he certainly aim to remove the crown from the british

empire and he failed at that time. but he is smiling at life. lincoln might have said something similar. but neither gandhi ignored lincoln would admit that a defeat is permanent, defeat would only be permanent, only a prelude to the next battle. but they give another instance of gandhi's discourse which reminds one of lincoln style. in october 1947, a few weeks after india was freed but also partitioned, the hindu gandhi against sheltering quote, frozen muslims snakes, unquote, which would bite on revival. so this is gandhi's reply. to liken the human being, however degraded he may be to a snake, to justify inhuman treatment is surely a degrading

performance. i have known fanatical muslims to use the very analogy in respect of hindus. lastly, let me, for the sake of snake kind, correct a common error and point out that 80 snakes out of every 100 are perfectly harmless. there are less obvious similarities also. the first of these is their strong self belief. before he ran for president lincoln felt he had something to offer in his words, on the great and durable question of the age for america, namely slavery and gandhi often expressed his awareness that his task was to lead his people to independence. offering himself for re-election in 1864, lincoln said that he could quote, better serve the nation in its need than any new man, unquote. and he added that he was vitter than the others available to reunite his bitterly divided

people. in 1932, gandhi said that like a pregnant woman who takes care of herself for the sake of the baby in her womb, he looked after his own fitness for the sake of the independence of india that he was carrying inside of him. lincoln and gandhi are also similar in their physical proximity to violence and war. both word -- lincoln was critical of america's 1846 to 48 war with mexico. american greed and mendacity" had drawn mexico into that war and he suspected that her desire for new territories for slavery might have been part of the american motivation. not forgetting that even the revolution that in the 1770s and 1780s overthrew british rule and broadened an

independent america to birth had been a cruel affair linkage brother that revolutionary war quote breathes forth famine, swam in blood, and load on fire and long after the widows will continue to break the sad silence that ensued. despite his grasp of the consequences of violence, lincoln had to preside over what remains america's bloodiest war to date. despite a passion against violence in over three decades of presenting an alternative to violence gandhi could not prevent the killings of 1947, the year of india's and pakistan's independence which took around half a million lives. with us, and this is a reminder of the irony of life and of history, lincoln and gandhi, both seen by the world as symbols of reconciliation,

sympathy and justice, spent the final years of their lives amidst great violence. gandhian lincoln both bought for national unity. for lincoln to preserve the union, gandhi to preserve a single india for all its residents. moreover gandhi's caste in india was profitable to lincoln's struggling over -- struggle over slavery. the chief concerns, counterparts to gandhi's concerns of india over cast and national unity we should all robe so remember that gandhi had made a third concern, india's independence. so gandhi had three difficult goals compared with lincoln's too difficult goals. as gandhi was a kind of an indian lincoln, we should add that he was like a lincoln in a time of washington, called upon to play the roles upon the same time the first in the 16th presidents made.

we know for lincoln's insistence that the union was much older than the constitution. in his beard was formed by the articles of association of 1774, continued by the declaration of independence in 1777 -- 1776 and furthered by the articles of 1778. is pointed out one of the declared object for establishing the constitution was to form a more perfect union. it had to be strengthened by the union was already there. that was more than a legal question. lincoln believed in the value of, the purpose for the. [inaudible] of america. critics and defenders alike have acknowledged lincoln's almost mystical attachment to a union. it was said that the only thing like passion or infatuation in a man was the passion for the union of the states. i'm quoting from garry wills. to gandhi too, the divinity of india matter to a very great

deal. he wanted hindus and muslims to live together in a united india. he also wanted in his single india and to untouchability into the notion of high and low. india's hindu muslim question in the 1930s and 1940s which was resolved to india's 1947 partition was similar in many ways to the north/south divide to lincoln and the usa resolve through civil law. declaring the south and sent alliance of rebels, lincoln went to war against it. crushed what he saw as rebellion and the union was preserved. while india's hindus and muslims had a great deal in common as was also true of the north and the south here, gandhi did not for all his passion, have war compulsion for keeping india one. before seeing what he did not, let me give you a flavor of his arguments and his passion for unity. when at the end of 1939 gandhi first heard that the separate

muslim holy land, seem to be called pakistan, was being demanded because it was claimed, muslims and hindus were two nations, this is what gandhi said. why is india not one nation? was it not one during the mogul period that? is india composed of two nations? if it is, whammy to? are not christians a third nation, parsi set forth and so on? are the muslims of china and a nation separate from other chinese? are the muslims of england a different nation from the other english? how are the muslims of the punjab different from the hindus and the seikhs. why are they not thinking the same water, breathing the same air to writing systems from the same soil? what is there to prevent it from following their respective religion, religious. muslims all the world in separate nations or the muslims of india of him to be a separate nation distinct patient distinct from the others? if bengali muslim speaks the

same tongue as a hindu bengali does come me existing me to think that, is the same amusements as his hindu neighbor, the way suggested is the way of strike on the content is. live in that live on mutual forbearance and toleration is the love life. that is a lesson i've learned from the koran, the bible and the -- now the man who championed the demand for muslim homeland of pakistan with the present of the muslim clique, a brilliant lawyer, seven years younger than gandhi and links like gandhi to the speaking part of the indian subcontinent. one difficulty that gandhi faced was some someone i had decided also argued before the muslim league came up with its demand for pakistan, that hindus and muslims were two nations. but let us look at more of gandhi's passion for united india, passion always joined as in the case of lincoln, with argument. it is worse than anarchy to

partition a poor country like india whose every corner is populated by hindus and muslims muslims living side-by-side. it is like cutting up a living body into pieces. but gandhi conceded that separation was possible. if the vast majority of indian muslims feel that they are not one nation with their hindu, who will be able to resist them? i know no non-violent method of compelling the ubb and of 18 million muslims to the will of the rest of india. however our poll the majority may represent. not ready to of course india's muslim population, gandhi offered to muslim league as a sort of separation. the muslims must have the same right of self-determination he said that the rest of india has. we are at present a joint family. any member may claim independence. during a series of 14 talks with

jenny, gandhi opposed economy for muslim majority areas after independence if the muslim league -- lead works jointly with the indian national congress but jena rejected the offer. when this happened, gandhi did not lead a march, violent or non-violent or start a fast against the creation of pakistan. all his political colleagues including many who it worked at his site side for 30 plus years, were keen to settle for partition without which independence would be indefinitely delayed. the public of india's muslims seem to want partition and after march 1947 the bulk of india's hindus and seikhs seemed ready to accept it. in the crucial province of punjab, the hindus and seikhs of punjab demanded partition. gandhi acquiesce. his assassination, which took

place five and a half months after india and pakistan emerged as free but separate nations, came not at the hands of muslims who it demanded pakistan but at the hands of a group of hindus who saw him as a friend of the muslims. gandhi's final though unsuccessful attempt to prevent partition was actually quite lincoln like. historians have referred to lincoln's quality of softening the rivals by giving them key positions and responsibilities. this is just what gandhi wish to try with his great rival, jena. he wanted nothing less than the office of the prime minister prime minister of the united india to be offered to jena. but gandhi's closest colleagues, nehru and patel, opposed the idea is did the lib -- viceroy was given the task of ending british rule in india and who is committed to partition solution. the proposal was never put to gemma. at least one leading jena scholar, stanley warburg, thinks

that jena would have accepted the author if it had been made. who can know for sure? gandhi did not in the end defy pakistan in part because public opinion of india favored it. in 1947 no mainstream india at defy pakistan. it was not as if gandhi and nonviolence came in the way of the nation of people keen on preventing our undoing pakistan. true, a political party known as the hindu for here's lead by -- could lead could set in 1937 that hindus and muslims were two nations oppose partition in strong language but the hindu last the strength to implement its features and in any case would seem to want was not equality in the united india but hindu domination. apart from public opinion there was another reason for gandhi not to fast until death against pakistan. he could not invite the terrible

killings that were bound to follow his death in a fast to prevent pakistan. when partition seemed inevitable, but was heralded by hindu muslim violence, reconciliation between hindus and muslims rather than the prevention of pakistan, became gandhi's chief goal. in this task his actions and words were again lincolnesque. here is what he said in the middle of january 1948 while announcing a fast but would not and until the rights of the beleaguered muslim minority in india's capital of delhi had been destroyed. that he believed could trigger the restoration of minority rights in both india and pakistan. this is gandhi's speaking on 12, january 1948. the fast begins from the first meal tomorrow. the period is indefinite. it will and when and if i am satisfied that there is a

reunion of hearts of all communities brought about with any outside rusher but from an awakened sense of beauty. the reward will be the regaining of india's dwindling prestige. i flatter myself with the believe that the loss of a soul by india will mean the loss of the hope of the aching storm tossed and hungry world. let us compare these last two lines with lincoln's famous words proposing the emancipation of slaves in his state of the union address on one december, 1862. when giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free. on her foe alike in what we give and what we preserve. we shall nobly save or lose the last best hope of earth. america may be the last best hope of earth says lincoln. let's not destroy that hope. the laws of by and you will mean

the loss of the hope with the aching storm tossed and hungry world since gandhi. each is wrestling for his nation's soul. each is also fighting for humanity as a whole. two days later condi said, del the is the capital of india, the heart of india. all muslims, seikhs, christians and who come to this country from karachi -- have an equal right to it. there for anyone who seeks to drive out the muslims is still a's enemy and therefore india's enemy. and gandhi, when i was young i never even read the newspapers. i could read english with difficulty. hayek had the dream ever since then that if the hindus, seikhs, parsi's, christians and muslims could live in amity not only

in -- where he was living but the whole of india they would all have a very happy life. if that dream could be realized even now when i'm an old man on the verge of death, my heart would dance. children within frolic in joy. i always like this picture of gandhi wanting to dance. his difficult terms were indeed matt. to save gandhi's life people were willing to put aside their anger and gandhi was able to stop his fast after six days. in line with gandhi's inventions -- convictions the constitution rejected the idea that the new nation be a hindu india inviting a muslim pakistan. that the new india was smaller than condi had expected, it was in india for all its inhabitants and not only for its majority. if lincoln preserve the union, gandhi also preserved egg union of india, which is india's full and correct name, sharing equal

rights to all in its space. in his second inaugural, lincoln said referring to the north and the south, both read the same bible, pray to the same god. each invokes his aid against the other. likewise gandhi pointed out that though hindus and muslims used if wright had names for the almighty and the all compassionate, they were both calling on the same god. i will conclude by trying very quickly to answer two questions. one, why did indians called gandhi the father of the nation? two what was the secret of its global impact? it was gandhi's great political opponent who on six to july, 19,441st address gandhi as the father of the nation. for four years, from 1909 if not earlier, gandhi was attempting to adopt all the people of india as his family, wanting to feel their burdens as his own

burdens. his wife, sons and grandchildren did not always approve of this but any people in india came to feel that in gandhi they had found not merely a leader who stood up to them but a friend who wanted to dry their tears. indians of all kinds seem to feel this, not just the hindus of whom he was won, not just the speakers of whom he was one. gandhi's 20 years in south africa where he was lucky enough to find a community of indians from different parts helps to him. there he found indians who spoke different languages and practice different religions and belong to different cast. patiently and skillfully gandhi organized south africa's indians into a community. in south africa he had found all of india on a lib laboratory skill. the gandhi you at age 45 finally returned to india in 1915 had already else relationships with indians of all kinds.

in the years that followed, he found really and participants from non-violent struggle across all of india and one part after another. crisscrossing india by train and often on foot, he bonded with poor indians and rich indians, with hindus but also with muslims, with the so-called untouchables come to the children of god as he called them, but also with the so-called caste hindus with indians in thank all, and karachi and the frontier province and every portion of the large land. in the process he also helped indians from all kinds to find a relationship with one another. indians would have been strangers to nother -- another or had registers as to one another when now willing to join hands. it was gandhi's contribution to the consciousness of oneness as

indians, his feeling of belonging to a family, that he most recognized when in 1944 he called gandhi the father of the indian nation. ..

now, a few days before this five englishmen had been killed in the same city, the holy city in india. at the end of that year, 1919 the indian national congress, the vehicle of the freedom movements held its annual session in the city to take advantage of the healing that been aroused. from all the prominent indians, and the leaders are present, ghandi was only back for years to southern africa, but already by now he was quite a well-known figure. virtually every well-known political figure in india was present at this rally. there was a famous all the

brothers who had just relieved. they said we have come with their return ticket to prison. you're ready to go back. the victim as leaders. the man who was there by birthright. the average woman who had made in their home, and indian home rule her life's mission. she had been the first woman president of the indian national congress. can before this session was a resolution which had to pass. the first spoke about the massacre. said that the governor who presided over the state where the massacre took place should resign. the general what were the massacre and should face some punishment. strong critics of what happened of the massacre.

in the second paragraph, we also criticized the action of the indian that resulted in the killing of five. so there was a discussion on this show will -- resolution. and they came to the podium and said we like the first part, although we would like to be stronger, but we cannot except the second part. and one person came and said before, no sign of an indian mother could have drafted the second part of this revolution. at the suggestion, the insinuation was that this irish lady, after all, she was wide. in those days any white person was regarded as an english person. today in america any white person is regarded as an american. but there, okay, no son of an indian mother could have drafted

the second part of that resolution. so there was a vote. the next day ghandi asks to speak to a great gathering. the chair person, why should they be allowed to speak again tonight discuss this question before. ghandi then said, i have been thinking deeply and for long about this, that though some of an indian mother could have drafted the second part of the resolution the years i have drafted it. and then he said, after thinking long and deeply about it to mike came to a conclusion that only this time of an indian mother would have drafted the second part of a resolution. it simply was president who later became a well-known political figure and literary

giant, present there. ghandi then spoke as if his whole life depended on the passage of this second part of the resolution. and after he ended the speech all of us were at his feet, and the resolution was reconsidered as part of the draft of including deploring by the indians of the five messman. so when ghandi did that he gave a stamp of honored to the indians in the movement. the british found absolutely irresistible, and it was this ability in ghandi to speak the truth to his own side and not just to the side that he was fighting, but to my mind, the secret of the impact he made on

the world. so with that i conclude and thank you very much. [applause] [applause] people who have questions "please come here to the microphone. >> could you please comment on the commonality between lincoln and ghandi, even after pakistan was created ghandi send a man to dinner and get permission from them that ghandi would go to

india and bring back muslims from pakistan. that man would have been much better. so that the commonality between lincoln and ghandi, comment on that. >> yes. i think the question makes a very interesting point. before ghandi was assassinated he had made this plan which to them what had excepted, the governor general of pakistan. created command ghandi was to visit pakistan and to negotiate his settlement of the deep divisions between the two countries. that visit never could take place because ghandi was assassinated. that also was a very lincoln like suggestion of gandhi's part that he would go and beat him and find some kind of

resolution. >> but your grandfather and abraham lincoln grew as human beings. they evolved. they reached created status by the end of their lives. did you want to comment on the personal growth and challenges they have this in the beings. >> i think a useful point to make the mother was an evolution in down his life, there was an evolution in lincoln's life. this was true in a personal sense, of course. also true in some of the great issues that they consented.

although the lincoln's position on slavery grew and evolved and became more radical time. the same was true in the case of ghandi and is positioned on cast those are great issues, and they need a good discussion, but it is absolutely right to make this point that there was an evolution in their positions that they took over the years. so i am glad that at this point i could not include for lack of time has been made in this part of the discussion. >> questions. it focuses on the cultural aspects. i'm interested in the relationship the three kasten race, slavery in the u.s. and how the bell with the

aspects in different ways. too complex question. >> at think it is not possible to give a short answer to your question. yes, now, as we all know, in lincoln's case we always said that in his personal opinion slavery was wrong. it was terrible. and he always was searching for ways and means of ending it. but in his public positions, in his public statements his remarks on slavery or very mild to begin with. they evolved and of course they ended in the second inaugural. we know how he identified the slavery as the great central san which was in some way responsible for the terrible killing that took place. in his case, as far as the

practice was concerned his language against it was very radical from the beginning. he always felt it was a tremendous and said so again and again. the greatest block as far as indian society was concerned. but in terms of making the removal of untouchability and the quality is sold gold, that he was not prepared. he had his, just as we can have his union's and the slavery abolished, ghandi also wanted to bring equality to india to in this tale of untouchability, but he also have the independence of india and they in the muslim french ship also has his goals. there was a great friend of his called cf andrew, this english men who said to ghandi, if you now give up everything else but only concentrate on this

question of cast and untouchability, that is your biggest gift, the great leader from the ranks of the untouchables, very interesting and remarkable figure also said it isn't a to get the. he said you seem to be so profitable. wanted to become a hindu dictator. what you to give up all this talk about independence in hindu muslim unity just focus on this question of cast and untouchability. condescend no. i would fight on the question, but also fired on the independence question and also find on the hindu muslim question. it is also true that just as lincoln radicalized his position as time went on enlisting blacks in the army and other issues, ghandi also radicalized positions.

as far as into marriage was concerned ghandi toward the end said that the only marriage to which i would give a special blessing would be a marriage between one of the so-called caste hindus and welcome the so-called untouchables. there are these changes over time. i can go on and on. >> what is it like having bought my ghandi as her grandfather? >> i don't know of any other grandfather. that's the only one i have. except that i have a mother's father. he was a very loving grandfather he gave me a warm embrace each

time. sometimes in the old days indians when they met their grandparents did doubt very deeply to receive a blessing. normally the blessing would be to give a very nice rest to your head. but in this state my grandfather used to give me a big bump on the back. and he was quite ben and sometimes lasting. his thumb was quite strong. he was exceedingly warm and affectionate and sometimes made jokes. i made jobs also to him. but one thing was there, his grandchildren and his children did not have too much of this time because the had so much of their work to do, he had taken on so many things to do, which she felt were necessary things to do. so sometimes as children and grandchildren felt he gives so