retook some parts so we built it we got it working. everybody wanted line. we have a lot of friends at work. [inaudible] [laughter] telling our friends to build computers. we got the 81 day to send up the circuit board to cut out the assembly we could get

1300 bucks together to pay this person to do the layout. and it is the circuit word twice what it costs to build that. [inaudible] that is what we did. the owner of the bike shops and you would like to pay 50 so i saw dollar signs in front of my eyes. we spend the next five days what the four distributors. [inaudible] we built the computers and resold 50 of them for cash and 29 days and that is how we got started.

[applause] ladies and gentlemen, please welcome may in joining walter isaacson. [applause] >> how great it is to be here. what a wonderful place. can i give a shout out to steve? [applause] all history is here. totally intimidating me because i will keep looking over they will be nine dain collor shaking their head. [laughter] >> this is the silicon

valley crowd. they will not be that polite. [laughter] >>host: we're so happy to have you here. let me ask you about your very, very first meeting with steve jobs. 1984. you describe yourself as the editor he comes to near to demonstrate the macintosh. >> you can see both sides of steve. absolutely passionate side because there he is with the original mac it is sitting there almost looked like it is smiling at you he shows you how thin that strip is it is not the third -- neanderthal and you can tell he is passionate about every pixel he is also curious that "time" magazine that we're not nearly as good as "newsweek" somebody had written a horrible story had written about him and i

saw the petulant cited that is when i first 32 realize that the impatient a patulous of that you saw with steve jobs was connected to the passion and perfectionism. >>host: you read teeing incredible people during your career. was something special about that encounter? was there an impression at that moment? >> i was mesmerized. you saw him. he is telling you these stories. he was mad because he was not a man of the year and 1982. [laughter] i have been 88 on the wrong side of that big dean paul volcker none of you remember him. [laughter] it was machine of the year. you can tell the first 10 you meet steve jobs that there is something compelling about him. >>host: flash for 20 years

2004. he gets in touch with us be maggie gives me a call. we talked a little while. do want to speak here he said no i want to take a walk. after while he says why don't you do a biography of me? i was just finishing albert einstein and i thought okay. franklin, einstein, as steve [laughter] but i said you are a great subject but let's wait 30 years until you retire. not until 2009 when he had his liver transplant on a medical leave that is on again he was fighting cancer and he transformed with his team, of a wide variety of industries furthest home computing, personal

computing, but by 2000 i had transformed the music industry, itunes, ipod, the religious and two music, a phone industry, a publishing, a tablet computing so then i said okay. this is too good to pass up. >> do you have a theory going into this? >> i had a theory because it is very first from call-in restarted to talk about it, he told me something that was said to have them that was you always want to stand at the intersection of liberal arts and the science right there between humanities and technology and engineering. that is something we lost that you're either in the humanities or the sciences. and my theory, among others, is that connecting creativity to wonderful feats of engineering is what made him so magical. >> you wrote something in the book is a quote his

passion for perfection and led him to indulge his instinct in to control such talk about the editorial control how did you manage to do that? >> i was stunned because it never really came up. after a while is your book i will not even read it. he did say by the way people don't read books. [laughter] but is yours and i want it to be honest. interview people who did not like me as well as people who did. he was brutally honest he said he did not want to feel like the in house book like an independent book and therefore he would exercise no editorial control. >> did that ever change? >> the one time he did visit to the three people who do not read books but simon &

schuster plan to the catalog a the cover design it was the cover of steve and apple and i landed in stamford sysco airport coming to a product launch that he would do and i saw the city would least like to see on your iphone which is six or seven missed calls from steve jobs for crimes to be in it concourse and he starts yelling at me. you have no taste for called the title is gimmicky and it is ugly i don't want you to come to the demonstration and. [laughter] i'm holding the fund. finally he says, i am not going to continue to cooperate unless you allow me to have input into the cover art. is it me somewhere between

one second in second and have to say sure. is greatest design i or something like that and he spent a lot of time trying to make it a very simple and clean cover. that was the one time i felt his wrath and also the one time he had editorial input. >>host: you talk a lot and you quote his friends to claim to the term reality distortion field. did you find yourself getting sucked into that as you work with him? >> would be the last to know. reality distortion field from a talk about it in revolution of the valley, but the engineers come from the "star trek" series that is simply by thinking something and being convinced of something even if it is impossible. you can convince other people. the secret of the reality

distortion field is that sometimes it works. you convince people they can do the impossible and then steve would say you'd have to do this in four days. one of the atari games in there with say it cannot be done and he said you can do it. that was the reality distortion field and in four days it was done. the question if i got sucked into it, i found myself deeply, emotionally invested with him. i tried very hard to be honest in the book to put all sides in the buck. that there will be people in this audience who would no more than most to re-read the book to say he got caught in a reality distortion field, i guess the answer is yes.

>> one final question about the process. you have the luxury of along historic called the taxman from einstein and benjamin franklin but here you write a biography of a very compelling living per cent of close and personal over 40 interviews. have a day maintain that necessary detachment that you could not spend with einstein are franklin. >> when steve did his stanford speech he said let me tell you three stories. you become a storyteller and you don't try to preach i try to let the stories tell themselves. one of the things i discovered by having so much time with them in 150 other people who worked with them

is how much more we know that i could know about him than benjamin franklin or einstein. we think he wrote to a lot of letters come a 40 volumes of paper science guy they're still compiling, but like flying a kite in the rain. one little journal entry, a newspaper clip, but with steve, everything that happened i would hear about at great length then other people's versions and i probably end up knowing 100 o thousand times more about him and each story in the book the new wide doing it through letters or journal's. >> talk about the story tiny we like to begin with was a at. the blue boxes. it starts at atari doing games and steve is on the night shift because they find easier to work with him

if he is on the night shift. [laughter] he learned the notion of how to do chips to do amazing things and also knows simplicity. remembered games like pawn and breakout in "star trek" had to be so simple us donned freshmen could figure them out. how to avoid the cling funds that simplicity was embedded and him. then at one point you have one of the few copies of the computer history museum of the blue box which was started i think when "esquire" magazine wrote about capt. and french and those who could replicate the bell system tone to make free phone calls so job said we have to do this they

found the bell system manual in made the analog version that did not quite work. in the first semester berkeley they could make their first digital version and you can see the partnership and four jillian cannot see if he is shaking his head and not. [laughter] but he comes up with this amazing circuit board but loves to show it off and steve says we could package it and we could sell it and making many and they go door-to-door selling this thing. at one point by calling the vatican pretending to call the vatican pretended to be kissinger trying to get the pope on the phone they eventually figured out it was signed henry kissinger.

i can see him nodding negative zero and steve told me when he described as storey in so old blue box story that if i had not been for the blue box there would not have been apple. that is pretty profound. >>host: why did he feel that way? >> the very complementary they complemented each other well. he would say he was 50 times better than any engineer could have better meetings in his head and was taught by his father being an engineer is the highest calling so he never thought maybe we should put it in a package where maybe we should get a good power supply and maybe we can sell it at twice or three times the cost of our materials. what steve did is take really great deal is to come up with a revision to pull a

altogether to do something amazing in that was a perfect partnership for somebody who could design the circuit board of one 1/4 the number of chips in the bills would take to make it to work. >>host: talking earlier about the process of invention and is not a singular endeavor not the one person sitting in your room at. >> is about the collaboration in. when you think of einstein was there a relationship? have you found these relationships occur over and over? >> not always. with einstein, it was the true solo act for the most of again dove theories of general relativity. he is paid seeing a loved and unlike most others, that

even though he was tough on people, a true the created teams like the original macintosh team of which he was the part that bonded together as if they were pirates and stephen was able with his inspiring in a demanding way to create collaborative teams and he did that his whole life even now at two apple you have the intensely loyal collaborative team. >> apple is up and running. to give a shout out to everyone. that apple i that is what you heard on the tape they go from person to person to get it up and running to

create this circuit board then they put it all together. steve decides 1/2 to incorporate they sold today at sotheby's 1.6 million and then when they put together apple, the way steve tells the story, he had was on a commune farm he was there 10 deemed to the apples and he came back from the apple farm saying we will create a company and he gets all excited not only will they make a product we will have from company. they could not figure out what to name it with matrix and he says what about

apple? apple computer. counterintuitive. it makes your head snap the didier is friendly a with of counterculture but american and as by. and he says of the cannot think of the of better name within one day and by the way a gets in front of atari in the phone book. [laughter] >> important marketing angle [laughter] they work on the apple i. apple is growing putting together a team early in the history but if there is another ingredient that has to make it work. first of all, you need money. what they're doing is going from apple xii the of bill ii. the difference is they create a beautiful case, the plastic molding, it will cost a lot of money to do

with. you cannot sell your vw bus and your h-p calculator like they did before. the need investment capital then they sign a line of credit but it gives them a great piece of the device which is a marketing document that has three concepts. one is to focus. keep your focus. the other is in the the. that make the emotional connection that the people will buy your product. the third is not great but if you to to being cast an aura around with there you do so that then it, as steve come even through his career had his own personal name on

the patents, the boxes, the package jane so when you open up there is the ipod cradle it when something really cool two us to the way it was in that is what apple ii does it. >> even as primitive as it looks today he obsessed with the curve of the corners. >> the design element. he had been fascinated by the sony style right when they move out of the garages a year and a little office and next -- next door is the saudi showroom. then he went to the ass been designed conference. . .

>> the 1984 ad is interesting knaus steve job's sowl you do have the heart or soul of a member of the counterculture, rebel, misfit.

>> i'm fighting the that's the amazing ad, scott, who had just done blade runner films it, in london, and it's the woman being chased by the thought police, and all the droids and big brothers on the screen drone, and she throws the hammer in it. decimates big brother, and then says, in apple will introduc macintorn in 1984 won't be like 1984. so they show it at a board meeting and all the board members are like this at the end. i think it was phil of macy's california says, who makes a motion we find a new ad agency?

scully is so frightened of it he's going to order them to sell back the advertising time on the super bowl and not run the ad. steve is furious. and at one point shows the ad to woz, and woz says let's chip in and pay for the ad on the super bowl. they don't need to because lee and the wonderful people -- changes its name -- who made the ad, lee, a beach bum of a generous who helped do the ad, has been a guru of advertising at apple ever since, sort of says we can't sell the time back. they just defy and don't sell the time basketball. so the -- time back. the ad runs once nationally but it becomes by many estimates, including tv guide, the best

advertisements of all-time. >> it doesn't sell well -- [applause] >> we can't get the rights to show it. >> it's on youtube. >> it soon be on youtube. >> we can play it on youtube. >> wonderful commercial, great premiere, doesn't sell well. steve is removed from running the macintosh division. his relationship with scully, a massive loss at the end. in fact you go in the back day-by-day -- >> seven days in may. >> talking to everybody there, and steve twice during that week tries a counter coupe, brings people up to his house in woodside, they all sort of plot. they know that steve probably should not take over the company. and it's one of the great learning experiences, but he feels abandoned, and he was going through a period of wrong-doing because he had been

adopted. about abandonment and father figures. john scully, and they all go around the room and vote against him and abandon him, and he really takes it hard. >> how does he recover from that? when he talks to you about that period, pretty dark time, what did he say? >> well, he described vividly every single day of that week, including where the food came from when he was serving it on the patio, when they're trying to bring mike around. so it's still seared into his mind. >> almost 25 years later. >> yeah, memorial day weekend of 1985. he goes to europe for a while, bicycles around with -- he then talks to some people and comes up with the concept of doing next computer, and by the end of

1985 has recruited a handful of people from apple, causing a lawsuit -- this is really bad at this point because the board and scully think, you're stealing our people. and he creates next. he says in his stanford speech and he said to me, being fired as apple is the best thing that happened know. liberated me. helped me change. i actually think it was the experience at next that liberated him and matured him more. >> why was that? >> at next there was no board of directors sitting on him, no ceo brought in. he could indulge every instinct. so, his instinct against paul rand, a designer of logos, $100,000 to do the next logo before they have anything. he gets a beautiful headquarters with a patented staircase. you can see them now in apple stores. he wanted his own factory. he wanted the next to be a

perfect cube, and those who have been involved in computer manufacturing know, usually they're sort of a draft angle that means it's 91 degrees or so so you can actually pull it out of the movement it was exactly 90 degrees it's harder to get -- no. exactly 90 degrees. and it meant they had to do a special manufacturing. had to be mac black. everything about it was him indulging this insane drive for perfection, including building the factory, having an impure wife and having it be robotic. so it is a glorious machine that is an absolute market failure, and at the very first macintosh offsite, he does a series of macombs on the white board, and the first one is, don't compromise. that's a great inspiring max maxim, also not a great way to

run a business. as ben frank frank said, compromises me a notice make great hero outside about they make grate democracy. at a point you have to learn how to make tradeoffs and that "don't compromise" mentality, he had it for a while until he realized, you don't have to compromise your principle but you have to have some sense of balance, and that's what he learned at next. and simultaneously, was was doing pixar. >> pixar is a wonderful example of what we said at the very beginning, the intersection of art and technology. a friend of his brought him up to george lucas, lucas was getting rid of the digital animation software and hardware division he had. steve thought that was really cool. he thought he could make consumers the ability too do digital renderings. that never really took off. there was one guy working there

in charge of making short to show off how cool the machines were, named john lassiter, and then he made a couple of shorts and the rest, as they say, is biography, if not history. makes -- eventually makes "toy story." so pixar is transformative. >> he says something very profound to you in the book about that period, which is, the strain that running pixar and next simultaneously put on him physically, and he even says i think that had something to my eventually getting cancer. >> i don't think that's the case. i don't think you get cancer from working hard or stress. >> right. it was -- >> he felt that way and felt it was great stress. he was driving up the pixar. handling -- and then of course goes back to apple he is juggling quite a few things.

i think that was a time of great stress in his life and also some unhappiness. next is not doing very well. those maps aren't selling. and pixar -- it was a hard hardware software company and nobody is buying pixar -- except disney bought a few pixar machines, and so for a while he hemorrhaging moneys at boast companies. >> and the most wildly creative period, producing these phenomenal -- >> by the time they produced "toy story" they're no longer hemorrhaging money. >> yeah. did he long for apple during this period? did he ever give up on the notion -- >> no. apple was his baby, his child. i don't know he longed for it but he was deeply frustrate it was being screwed up.

that after a whale they weren't inventing new products and the products sucked and they kept coming out with more macintoshs but not a new man. couldn't create a new operating system, a new mac os, so he is watching as people screw up the wonderful baby he helped create. >> and finally his return. >> can't create an operating system at a certain point, gill, then running apple, says, okay, i got to buy an operating system. and the bos; he looks at even microsoft. the question of adopting windows. that would have been weird. >> and then there's this amazing operating system that steve jobs had done at next with the colonel to it, which it exactly what aim -- apple needed, and

eventually apple buys flexion to get the operating system ask then you buy next to get steve jobs, and i'm not sure it was woz0 who said it, but i think it was, gill, meet steve jobs, game over. steve jobs is back in the saddle again. >> in fact you tell the whole story. emilio tried to resist that, but he just found himself -- >> game over. >> -- being drawn in. the reality distortion field kicks in and then begins argue my one of the greatest decade of a company. >> totally stunning. he creates with the new operating system -- he brings bill gates, his doppelganger, and gates comes back and makes the new os for the mac and he focuses on design.

you remember and probably have it here but not on stage, the first imac. he first goes back to apple in 1997, and they form this bonding, and they create the imac. johnny sketches it out. looks like a rabbit. hops up on your desk. steve says, that's not good, but they keep playing with the model until at it beautiful. they make it translucent beyond deep blue. go to jelly bean factories. you can see the circuitboard inside. and johnny ives comes up with the notion, even though it's a big desk top machine, putting a recessed handle, and the engineers say that coesites much movement you don't need a handle. and what steve and johnny intuitive understood is that computers were still intimidating to people, but the handle gives you permission to touch it. it says, i'm at your service,

and says, just by having that recessed handle, even if you didn't use it, you felt that the computer was being def rein shall to you. so that beautiful design, when they have flat screens, they tike the imac, and johnny designs something, and steve says, no, no, no, integrity of the flat screen, you screwedded up. and johnny comes back to steve's house in the back yard, they planted sun flowers. the walk around trying to fir out what to do, and finally you get that beautiful imac with the dome and the sunflower so it has integrity to it, and everything they do, whether they're playing with plastic or titanium or metal, it's distinguishing apple from those commodity machines that dell and h-p and compact were turning out. >> once he rights the ship with that strategy, he makes a kind of incredibly bold decision, which is --

>> 2001. yeah. >> it's not going to be a computer company anymore. >> they used to take the top 100 and go off on retreats and say, here's what we want to do next. and everybody would fight to get on that list, and finally they get lists of ten, and then steve would cross off the bottom six or seven, and say, we can only do four. and it was stay focused. when we went back to arch that was it. focus on four things. desk top, laptop, home, professional. we're not going to make 20 lines of maks. we're going to make four. and so that focused. then when he nails it and gets that right, at the top of the list is maybe consumer devices. products. and what he does is he realizes that by having end-to-end control of the hardware and the software, you can create a digital hub where you can put your video camera by fire wire, connected to your computer and manipulate your video, create dvds. the one thing he screwed up

slightly was he didn't -- he wanted a trace in the new imac, and he was serious -- he waned one of those pure slots, and when they put a tray in, he was serious and made them eventually change it to just a slot, but it meant you couldn't burn music c.d.es, when panasonic and others came out with the burning of cds, and he was so fucused on video, doing idvd, and he calls up adobe and says, you've got to make your video editing software for the new mac os, and unlike bill gates, who said yes and came down and said microsoft, the people of adobe said, no, you have too small of a market share, and he never forgave adobe, which is why flash doesn't work on your i. a but the mark of a true genius

of a company is not just when you think of things first, burt when you actually fail to think of something first, can you leapfrog, catch up? and so he realizes he had gotten aced out of the music business. that others were making cd burner trays and people were -- all of us were making -- downloading music from napster and making play lists and burning cds and you couldn't do that well on the apple. so he had to leapfrog and says we're going to make a perfect end-to-end thing with a juke box software, which is itunes, the store itself, and when they start making the ipod, he makes it so simple because it's integrated. you can put the complexity on the mac or the itune software so the device itself is not a

complicated mp3 players. you could just look at it with the track wheel and it was intuitive, and he kept saying i want to be able to get wherever i want, whateverson want, in three clicks and i want it to be intuitive, and he drove them until the ipod becomes perfect and that is when he leapfrogs and does the music, but it takes apple from being apple computer -- they even changed the name to just apple -- into being in the digital hub business. first with dvds and video. then really big with the ipod and music, and the ipod is hugely successful so he starts to worry. what's going to kill it? and re realizes people putting music on their phones will kill it. so focuses and does the iphone, and does it at first -- they did two versions of the iphone, one with sort of an ipod modified with a track wheel which wasn't very good for a phone. and then with johnny ives and

many other people, and goaded on by microsoft and an engineer there that steve didn't like -- this notion of a touch screen technology, and when he finally sees how the touch screen can work, he says that's how we're going to do the iphone. so you have a series of consumer devices from the decade beginning beginning in 2001, most prominently the ipod, the iphone, and the ipad, the totally transform industries. >> and statement he is bending other industries in the direction of his -- >> the music industry. >> the music industry, disney. >> retail -- >> retailers. >> he can't abide he is making these products and comes up with the next to of apple store, which is not just a store but a whole branding exercise.

that notion of bending industries for the ipod and itune store to work you had to convince seven record companies to put all their music on and disaggregate albums and sell the songs for 99 cents initially. and the music companies had their own press play and they were doing their consortium. soapy had done the walkman, a great music division. none want to come aboard, and steve personally is like bringing the itune software to the time warner building, showing it to roger ames at warner music, getting him aboard, and then getting doug morris at universal, finally encircling sony. no other ceo would have been so passionate about just going at people until they finally surrendered, and sony is the

last holdout. there's a great story that andy lack tells me. he has to put sony music in but the one thing that steve wants is all of dylan. because he and woz found every bootleg tape, totally dylan fan natics. the sandarac of steve's life. dylan is a sony artist. so he wants to do all tracks of dylan as a virtual digital set you can buy for $199. andy at sonny says, no, i'm going to jab it to him. we need leverage. steve calls bob dylan, bob dylan, slightly spacey, doesn't deal with it, hismark, all trying to figure out -- steve jobs talked him into it. andy lack finally says to bob dylan, i will write you a check for one million if you'll stay

out of the itune store with that box set. and dylan -- i hate to say it because i love dylan -- takes the money, bought year lan diandy lack moved out of sony and dylan's box set not only goes on the itune store, dylan does an ipod ad with silhouettes and dylan wearing the cowboy hat, and it helped dylan. he debuted with an album at the top of the charts because the ad slow introduced him to a new generation. >> you look skeptical about the questions. >> i'm not skeptical. my expression meant to say where do i start. i want to ask you one more question about the final chapter. you write, if reality did not comport with his will, he

weigh nor it, as he had done with the birth of his daughter and would do a few years later when diagnosed with cancer. the question people wanted most to answer was why when he was firs diagnosed, kid he undertake all these natural nonmedical solutions. >> two sides to steve jobs at all times. whether it's his personal life, cancer, professional life, the products he makes. there's the counterculture alternative, romantic, sensibility of steve, and there's the hard core engineering scientific side of steve, and the cancer was no different. both sides kick in and he spends a lot of time wrestling with the two alternatives. wrestling with alternative treatment and diets and also, as i say in the book, didn't get as much, having his dna sequenced,

having targeted therapies done. unfinal takes some months before he does what he does in every other aspect of his life, is find the perfect sin sin synthesis of something that is scientific and comports with his alternative view of things. so it attacked longer -- i don't know. it was implied had he gotten operated on right away or something he might have stopped the cancer. we don't know that. cancer spreads in mysterious ways. so it's quite likely thea -- the cancer had already spread but it was somewhat typical of steve to say, the normal rules don't apply to me. i'm going to look at this from both an alternative viewpoint as well as a deeply rooted scientific viewpoint. everything in some ways he does in his life ends up being a synthesis of that hippie rebel with the guy who in the

hewlett-packard geek explorers club. >> i'm going too start with a couple questions now. what was the greatest misperception about steve jobs in your mind that was addressed or maybe that you could address in this book? >> i think the greatest misconception, right when the book first came out and people were reading it -- the pet lance and impatience of his character was a weird thing. his own personality was integrated, including with his profession and the products he made, just like apple products are integrated so that perfectionism, or bratty temperment. that's not a disconnected thing

that has nothing do with the passion for perfection or the product, you know, drive that he had. so i try -- that's what the last chapter is about -- to show how all of this was woven together so that the -- words like petulant and bratty are also maybe a little ufa mystic. >> i was at time inc., and at one time fortunate was doing a story involving his cancer because they reported the cancer treatment first, not my book. and i was like -- steve was furious and called up the editor and the editor in chief. and he says to the editor of fortune, wait a minute. you have discovered i'm an ass --hole? why is that news. he was very self-aware he could

be a strong cup of tea. >> yeah. >> this is an interesting question. did he have to be who he was in that way to do what he did? >> that's the question i'm most asked. kid he have to be that way? did you have to be that way to get done what you did? and i'm going to back off a little from giving you a great answer because i'm a story teller. i had to write about the person who was in front of me. that's who we has so i wrote the story of him. this is not a how-too book. this is not a manual for, you have to be this way to run a company. of yours you don't. very nice people run very successful companies and there are also total assholes who are total failures at running companies. that said, i am not trying to say here's the way to do it like steve did. i am trying to write a book about a flesh and board human

being who i didn't know all of aspects, but when i knew them, i tried to tell the story, and part of the story is being driven or -- and having not been that way, i doubt he would have been as successful. on the other hand, i suspect there were other ways to get things done at times, but when you say, did he have to be that way? my only job is to tell you the way he was because i'm just a biographyer, not a preacher or management consultant. >> do you think that question will be answered with the sort of the luxury of distance and time? >> yeah. i mean, i guess -- christianson is another great management guru could probably do a case study of, you can take all the jack welchs and say -- "60 minutes" was saying, did he have to be so

hard, so tough? i said, wait a minute. you work for don hewitt. don hewitt was a genius. he was also a real pain in the butt. we all know people like that. i guess you can do a study 0 nice bosses, tough bosses, jerks, and correlate it somehow with the regression analysis and say who is more successful. that's way above my pay grade. >> are you writing the screen play and would you choose george clooney? [applause] >> i am not -- the reports of the movie are premam -- premature. >> do you see george clooney -- >> i am not a movie person. steve went over every frame of pixar movies the way he went over every curve over the first macintosh and he would say something about finding nemo, and i remember having to go back

and quickly download the movies because i just don't know -- it's one of my blind spots. when i was editor of time i was famous for make really bad movie cover calls. so, asking me who should play what in a movie is -- >> all right. we'll give you a pass. i'm going to read you the preface. is says on behalf of historians, what were steve's stipulations about using the interviews you collected for the book and where will they ultimately be deposited. >> most or notes, some transcript of the four or final formal interviews he gave me. my notes will go somewhere. maybe we should talk. but not for another 20 or 30 years. and not -- i mean, partly because steve, and then the people around steve, would say things that could be very hurtful, or they would say --

you know, say something just offhasn't, especially steve, about certain things, and there are things i didn't put in the book and things i would have to take out of my notes just because they were unnecessary to understanding steve and probably in the interests of kindness, you don't want to hurt people with certain comments. so, i will some day go through my notes and -- if it's the 20-year rule, maybe some of the things will have gone by the wayside. >> someone picked up on the quote about great artists steal, and said, he said that, yet he reseptember bill gated and google and many others for stealing from apple as he saw itful how did his zen self recognize this. >> steve was not an expert at

reconciling conflicting things. anderson and many others have great quotes about people having conflicting thoughts at the same time. steve was totally ballistic first at bill gates and microsoft for ripping off, as he put it, the mac -- macintosh, and then how he felt android and google had ripped off the apple mobile operating system. did he -- no. he didn't try to reconcile that. but i will say he didn't rip off xerox. there was a final deal. xerox invested a million dollars in apple there was an exchange of technology. i think -- he has some right to

feel that he came up -- or apple came up with the beautiful macintorn operating system and pretty much copied by windows, and likewise, the mobile operating system. you can argue, as for ten years in court -- they were in arming about whether you can copyright the look and feel, whether there's an intellectual property theft there. but i can understand why he was pissed off. >> in his mercurial -- a great story about his -- mercurial, i love the word. >> and dictatorial style. how was he able to engender such loyalty -- let's go to mercurial. he wasmer curlal. so he is showing off the next computer at symphony hall here when it's been unveiled and he helped invent digital book outside but he put a thesaurus

and shakespeare's book, and he is showing off the thesaurus and he says sometimes i am calmer curial and he says, let me look it up and it says changeable moods and then it described another word, somebody who doesn't have enough emotions. and he says, maybe it's not so bad to be mercurial. so i think he understand his mercurial nature and that was part of who he was. and having said that. i've now forgotten the second half of the question. >> how did he engender such creativity -- >> oh, look. when you're creating a machine as insanely great as that, even if you're in the middle of the night saying, this code is -- sucks, you got to make it better, by the time you've created as an engineer the original macintosh, you're loyal to the genius and the vision there.

and people who have strong personalities either can turn people off or they can say, hey, i got inspired here, and got to be on a team, and, look, the proof is -- i hate cliches like this, proof in the pudding -- but look at the team he even has at apple. if he is that bad 0 a boss, why do so many a players stay with him? because he like to be on a team with a players. if he ran off the b players that doesn't mean the team at apple filled with a players -- they're quite loyal to him. '. >> can you tell us about the relationship between larry el sis union and steve jobs? >> larry says best friends. it was a deep friendly relationship. one of my favorite anecdotes is late '96 when the question of

steve coming back to take over apple is first being kicked around. and larry ellison says why don't be buy apple? why don't a launch a hostile takeover. i'll buy apple. we'll put you back and set it into motion again and we'll all make a lot of money. and steve finally says, i think i might go back to apple. but i don't want you to invest. i don't want you to buy it. i don't want me to invest. i want to go back at a dollar a year and no openership. and larry ellison say, if you make it a great company again, how are we going to make money if we don't invest in it and buy it? they were walking along a beach, and steve grabbed him by both shoulders and says, larry, this is why it's important, i'm your friend, you're don't need anymore money. [laughter]

>> it i won't go there. a couple more questions. first, -- let me just ask you quickly about the current technology, this great conversational interface that siri represents. did he talk about that with you, what the vision for that is? >> yeah. i do think that the simplest, most natural interfaces have always been his passion, and there's no simpler one than just talking. i did not know the name siri but we talked and i was careful in the book, even though he told me a lot of things in detail what he wanted to do i decided, you know, i shouldn't put in things that he might not be able to do and that apple may be working on for the next couple of years. but at the last board meeting when he tenders his regs nice as ceo, they have a lung and the engineers bring out the various things they're working on, and one of them which i knew was

coming out, is this voice wreck recognition thing, and they know steve is not feeling well but he has been brought into the meeting so he is going to try to make it look bad. so he asks what is now called siri, do i need an umbrella, and says, the prediction is for sunny day tomorrow in palo alto. so, it really is doing the beautiful thing. so finally steve says, are you a man or are you a woman? and they all kind of hold their breath because he is trying to trick the machine, and siri is very good. the two layers, and it says, they have not yet assigned me a gender. [laughter] >> and they all breathe a sigh of relief and steve thinks its great. he loves that technology. bill gates and everybody has been trying to crack voice recognition. >> yeah. what do you think of the apple that he leaves behind? you talked about the team and

the great group he has built. there's rumored to be this product road map that goes on and on. but the history of technology companies with a founder like this, is someone driving it with a vision like this, leaving, is not great overall. what do you think about where apple goes from here without steve jobs? >> well, the last meeting i told you about when he goes the board and does that lunch, somebody at the lunch makes fun of h-p because that day or that week it hatt had gotten out of the tablet business, was getting in or out of the pc and was totally confused. steve said, wait a minute. he stopped the person making fun of the troubles at hewlett-packard. he said, when i was 13, bill hugh hewlett give me my first job, and they crated a company that was designed not only to

make a calculator and then make a computer and make other things, but too continue and last and continue to make new products and come up with any ideas even after they were gone. and those bozos screwed it up for hewlett and packard. i don't want that to happen at apple. and he tried deeply to fight off the bozo explosion because there was only a great team of eight players, and also to say there's a simple, simple thing, that apple stands for, which is, the intersection of great creativity and the humanities with great engineering and technology, and he says that's what disney did. that's what a lot of people have done. there are companies that last. ibm is almost 101 years old. i think apple has imbued in its genetic code this desire to drive great design and artistic

creativity with great engineering and technology, and it will be at that intersection and the people there now are capable of keeping it at that intersection. you know, ten years from now, 25 years from now, ups and downs and ups and downs at disney but they're doing fine right now of a few rough patches since walt disney died. if i had to wager, and up like rick perry, i am a betting man -- not $10,000 but i would wager that a generation from now, even a century from now, apple will still exist, at the intersection of the humanities and the technologies. >> so that's apple. one final question about steve jobs. 100 years ago the great

industrialists, carnegie, rockefeller, melon, built institutions and legacies, and that legacy survived, steve jobs might have done a similar thing but he chose not too do it and his legacy is apple, and it's built on shifting sands of tech -- technology. what do you think the legacy of steve jobs will be as people look back on him and this era. >> asked them the last five or civics -- six pages of the book is him talking about you're legacy, it's putting something back in the flow of history. i asked him, what was his greatest creation. he said, apple as a company because products come and go but the hard part is making a company that will continue to make good products. so i do think apple will be

his legacy. but also more specifically the legacy will be somebody who truly transformed industry after industry by pulling together great ideas and driving the technology to support them. i mean, look at the ipad. people made fun of it. i was there when he launched it. there were article, what is this, an iphone on steroids? nobody makes a tablet work. the ipad is now -- when i walk into a doctor's office or anywhere else, it is transforming industry after industry. $2 billion last year just in the industry of creating apps for it. the textbook industry. you know, carnegie was great with education fill philanthrop. bill gate, in the end, the ipad may change education as much as any of the carnegie

schools. so, i think he's got a pretty solid legacy if you look at each of those industries he transformed. >> so, we often ask our authors to do a short reading at the end and you graciously agreed to read the -- i wonder if you would do that for us now. >> yeah, thank you. as i said, i end -- i'll start earlier on. one more thing, his signature phrase, and i do say -- this is one of steve jobs, and even though he didn't impose his croyle suspect i would not be conveying the right feel for him and the way he asserted himself into any situation if ushuffled him on history reside statement without letting hill have he laserworts, so i take a series of interviews i did with him about his legacy and let him talk without me getting in the

way. but then the coda is about a one sunny afternoon when in the back garden of his house he wasn't feeling well and he reflected on death. and i say he talked about his experiences in india almost four decade earlier. his study of buddhism, his views on reincoronation and spiritual tran scenens, quote, i'm 50 5 on believing in god, he said. for most of my life i felt there must be more to our existence than meeted the eye. unquote. he admitted that, as he faced death, he might be overestimating the odd. out of a desire to believe in the afterlife are quote, i leak to think that something survives after you die. it's strange to think that you accumulate all this experience, and maybe a little wisdom, and it just goes away. so i really want to believe that

something survives that maybe your consciousness endures. and then he fell silent for a long time, and then he said, but on the other hand, perhaps it's just like an on-off switch, he said. click, you die. you're gone. and then he paused again, long pause, and he smiled slightly, quote, and maybe that's why i never liked to put on-off switches on apple devices. [laughter] >> that's the end. [applause] ... >> booktv and primetime continues tonight with three presidential biographies.

>> hear some of the iowa campaign events we are covering this morning.

>> wikipedia is not interested in a true. wikipedia is interested in what could be verified and reliable sources. the idea is that a newspaper hasn't gone through editorial layers, even use that phrase, that's a phrase that bloggers will laugh at. bloggers have been shown to be right. they have covered stories were newspapers have done a bad job.

but on the overall you're more likely to trust something from the "washington post" or "the new york times" that from something you found on a blogspot. in order for a blogger to be proved right, and you usually need their traditional gatekeeper of a media source to say so. >> william beutler, for the online encyclopedia wikipedia. n sunday on c-span's q&a.e] >> a justice department task force has been holding public hearings on children's exposure to violence. attorney general eric holder spoke on one of these hearings held last month in baltimore. the task force will produce ain. report on its findings in the fall of 2012. ngottestandiour and 40 minutes. >> good morning to you will, and thanks so much for coming. thank you, dean, for those kind words. we have been friends for a

number of years, and she could've said other things about me.bothis but i want to thank you for all that you and your staff have done to help bring together this really extraordinary group of dvocates.experts and a i also want to thank university of maryland, school of law for hosting today's meeting and providing the forum for thisforr very critical discussion. thank you all for your participation and for your commitment to protecting and empowering the most precious an. vulnerable among us, that is, our children, the americanwant children. you at every level of today's justice department, i want you to understand, that this work is a priority. we have a whole bunch of things that are on our plate range from national security to economic front, but this is a priority. i'm particularly grateful for me colleagues in the office of justice programs, the office ont violence against women, and thes cops office for their leadership in developing and the dancing many of the departments most

innovative and effective efforts, including the new defending childhood initiative as the new defending childhood task force. to gathor today, as the 13 members of this task force gather for the first time, we are launching a new chapter in the work of protecting our young people from violence and from our. and ensuring that in this country every child has a safe issueso live, to learn, and hopefully to grow. the task force is comprised of renowned excellence on the issues surrounding children exposed to violence. its members work to improve the lives of children in large cities, rural towns, as well as mm tribal communities. they represent the legal, medical, research, law enforcement state and survivor communities. while they bring a diversity of perspectives to their work, the. all share a common passion for ntireission that brings us together today. ad behalf of our nation's eachf our of justice as well as

president obama and the entire administration, i want to thank each of our task force members, especially our co-chairs, joe terry -- joe torre and robert listen be for this very important work. and want to thank everyone here for supporting their efforts, and particularly courageous individuals who have come to share their personal stories with us. anu we look forward to the front and also learning from you. i also want to recognize two key members our nation's united states immunity, well for joining us and all that you've done to strengthen the department's groundbreaking child initiatives. the work you are leading in each of your offices to better address the threat their children are facing in d.c., maryland, and the surrounding areas, cases that rod and ron have advanced and the

communities that they have helped to reform, remind us that the often difficult work of improving circumstances for young people at risk, solutions are possible. change is possible. progress is possible. the changes that we hope for are possible. they are only possible if we are willing to act collaborative way and if we enlist the help of a variety of partners. that is what this task force is all about, bringing together a wealth of experience and talent to focus on one of the greatest public safety epidemics of our time, a children's exposure to violence. protecting the health and safety of our children has been a personal and professional concern for decades. for me, it has been decades.

this is a young-looking crowd. as the deputy attorney general, addressing the causes and remedying the consequences of children's exposure to violence was a prominent part of my daily work. i'm the parent of three teenagers and it remains a top priority. we must confront this problem had on my understanding what we and our children are up against. i served as deputy attorney general and have the opportunity to work with leading researchers to take a look at the problem of children's exposure to violence. we learned that whether a child was a witness or a direct victim of violence, the experience was associated with psychological and emotional harm, as well as it higher risk for drug and alcohol abuse later

in life. children exposed to violence fail in school or often and are much more likely to suffer depression, anxiety, and other disorders. children exposed to violence are more likely to develop chronic diseases and to have trouble forming emotional attachments. they are more likely to go on to commit violent crimes. although our understanding of the nature of the problem has increased in the 1990's, we did not know how prevalent it was. we did not have comprehensive data that could give us the full story about where violence touches children and we did not have the research to tell us about the cumulative effect of the exposure to violence. now we do.

we must act. during my first year as attorney general, findings, national survey of children exposed to violence. the most comprehensive survey on violence, crime, and abuse in children's lives. the majority of our kids, more than 60%, have been exposed to violence, crime, and abuse. these patterns of violence can take many forms, pushing, hitting, to witnessing or experiencing a gun, knife, or sexual violence. they are not limited to any one community or to any one demographic group. exposure can happen at home, in the street, at school, or on the internet, where children face unprecedented threats.

children are more likely to be exposed to violence than to adults. children are likely to be exposed to violence than adults. this problem has significant consequences for individuals, families, and for entire communities. it affects each one of us and we'll have a role to play to address this. we cannot ignore the needs of our children. as a side of fails to make protecting children a toppers party goes against the fundamental responsibilities. that is why failure is not an option. because of the work of leaders, it is not even a probability. despite the challenges that we face, i think we have good cause for optimism.

we note it is possible and within our power to help kids who need us the most. quality intervention programs can foster healthy child development and can counter the negative effects of violence. early interventions which children can help them avoid a repeat victimization and future involvement with the criminal justice system. we have made an historic commitment to apply this knowledge. i'm proud that we are now directing resources for the express purpose of reducing children's exposure to violence, raising awareness of its ramifications and advancing scientific inquiries on its causes and characteristics.

committee-based policing and victims of crime are engaged in coordinating the department's effort to prevent children's exposure to violence. we're building on existing partnerships with the departments of education and health and human services as well as with our law enforcement partners in the field. we have embraced the reality that the government has a responsibility to act. they cannot be successful without community leaders, police officers, coaches, teachers, principals, and parents. that working to make sure professionals that work with children are trained to identify those who have been exposed to violence. to be effective and to make the progress that our children need and that our children deserve, we need the full attention of the federal government and of

state, tribal, local community, nonprofit, and private sector partners. we have to do this in partnership with all of those groups. we need to prevent the violence against our young people. we must go on the expertise of policymakers and attorneys, but also with young people themselves. if we listened to them, they can make a difference in strengthening the work that we're committed to doing. we need more information about current approaches. we need to know what works and we need to know what does not work so that policymakers can make informed decisions about how to tailor solutions to meet the needs of individual communities. this task force represents a powerful and promising step forward. i'm counting on the 13 members

to study this problem and to provide guidance to the department and to the public on how we can improve our response to this issue and implement the solution that we need. this task force can help to inspire extraordinary progress. the task force on victims of crime led to the creation of the office for victims of crime and prompted a sea change in how the criminal justice system treats victims and pave the way for them to become partners and to help them attain the rights that they deserve. the task force recommended legislation to provide funding to assist state crime victims compensation programs and their work helped to advance passes of the victims of crime act of 1984.

the task force helped to raise awareness of domestic violence. among the recommendations -- recognizing this as criminal activity and the need to develop multi disciplinary committee response to domestic violence became the core principles of the violence against women act of 1994. i'm confident that the members will strengthen the work that is under way to raise awareness of the issue of children exposed to violence and there will play an important role to this national epidemic. this task force will hold four field hearings across the country to learn firsthand how violence is affecting our nation's children.

by december 1 of next year, they will present me with a report documenting their findings that they can take to improve the current system of care for all of our children. by hearing from experts and practitioners, members will be uniquely positioned to add to our knowledge about how we can better safeguard our children across the in target of the united states. by showing us what works and mitigating its effects, i have every expectation that this effort will help us to better protect our children. there a difference will come from the work that some many of you do in your neighborhoods and in your communities when you respond to a domestic violence call and when you work to remove a child from an abusive setting, when you council a student who was been bullied, or when you recognize a lifetime of drama, you've become a part of the solution. i believe that together we can

transform america for the better one child at a time. i'm not pleased to give the defending childhood task force its charge. the members of the defending child the task force will conduct four hearings nationwide, to learn from survivors, policymakers, academics, and the public to the extent of children's exposure to violence in the united states. the members will seek information about prevention strategies that desert increased attention from the department of justice and from states and local and tribal governments. the defending child the task force will develop a final report to me presenting policy recommendations which will serve as a blueprint for preventing and addressing children's exposure to violence, and for mitigating the effects experienced by children exposed

to violence across the united states. i want to thank you all once again for your service and for your willingness to accept what is a critical responsibility, as you work to fill out your duties, i encourage you to think creatively and broadly and to consider what can be accomplished with cooperation and commitment to the young people that need us most and are dependent on us to act. to keep my privilege to introduce the cochairs and to turn the meeting over to them. joe torre is the chairman of a foundation whose mission is to develop programs that will end the cycle of domestic violence and to save lives.

the foundation has educated thousands of students, parents, teachers, and school faculty about the devastating effects of domestic violence. it currently reaches kids in nine schools and two community centers, markets place -- margaret's place provides a safe room where people can talk to each other. since february of 2011, mr. torre has been the executive vice president for baseball operations. he was a major league manager for 29 seasons, 12 of them for the new york yankees, whom he led to the playoffs every year including four world series championships. the glory days.

he compiled a .297 batting average, 252 home runs. he hit over .300 five times in his career. he was once the national league mvp. can you spell "cooperstown"? the chief of the juvenile unit since 1997. he serves on several boards that advocate for the rights and the interests of children. these include the minority context subcommittee of the pants of a commission of crime

and delinquency. he is a member of the juvenile justice and delinquency prevention committee of pccd, which advises the governor on juvenile justice policy. he serves on the juvenile offender center and has persist dated -- participated and maybe the hardest working man in show business. he's a team leader. it was established in 2006. he received his b.a. from harvard university. i want to thank you of both once

again. i wish you all a very productive day. the work that you have is very important. we're all looking forward to that. thank you for the crew work i am sure you will too. >> thank you. [applause] >> thank you. that was a pretty big play i guess. i forgot all about that stuff. before we make some remarks, we will like to have our task force introduce themselves. will you please start? >> good morning.

i am a professor of psychiatry at the university. it is established by eric holder. we have learned a great deal over the last decade about the impact of children exposed to violence. torino a great deal in know that early intervention and social supports are the best ways of interrupting the cycle of outcomes that he was referencing earlier. it was this kind of knowledge that led to a unique polishes partnership. it'll help professionals unlikely partners. it led to a better way of

identifying and offering help and support they needed. it also led to a new family strengthening intervention a posttraumatic stress symptoms and disorders in children by 73% when they're able to identify this. the problem of children exposed to violence are great. so are the opportunities that are enormous. law enforcement partnerships are just one example of many possible ways of collaborating weather and an emergency room, schools, courts, a neighborhood. most importantly in the homes of the children that are most affected. it is with great gratitude that i n serving on this task force. it is a special with great gratitude to the department of justice and to the attorney that has been a great leader over the

last decade in helping us develop plans better comprehensive and a way of moving forward. thank you. >> >> good morning. i am a physician at boston medical center. this is a hospital that treats the majority of the youth who are injured by violent crimes. i am in the director of the intervention advocacy program from the emergency department. we provide comprehensive care we provide comprehensive care and support to youth who are patients and injured by a violent crimes. we provide primarily housing, education, mental health, legal support, life skills training, and the goal of our intervention

is to support and to guide them through recovery with the hopes that they will be able to re-enter society as productive citizens and to become mentors themselves. doing this work which is primarily downstream it has given us a window into the various different things that happen to these kids and so we know that requires more than just downstream work. you need to do a 360 degree intervention and work upstream. we know that when the victim you're looking at is injured, they are not the only victim. everyone in proximity to them is injured. primarily the children in their communities and families. of the work of this task force seems quite appropriate to address that particular issue. it is quite a privilege and an honor to be part of this task force and i look forward to what

we will be able to do to work upstream and address this issue. >> my name is jim macdonald. i am chief of the long beach police department. i am in my 31th year policeing. i went to long beach and it is an honor for me to be on this panel and be able to bring at least a perspective to this issue. my hope is we will come with an honest and straightforward approach to children's exposure to violence. it is a cycle we have all seen it goes generation to generation. we are not able to address that even with the best of intentions as we have tried to do. this task force brings a multi disciplinary examination to the issue and we have the opportunity to hear witnesses from throughout the nation and different ways of dealing with and different issues that some best practices that haven't been spread through the country and i

am hopeful that we will be able to come away with a product at the end of the day that we can present to the attorney general that will become a blueprint for dealing with this issue and be valuable and hopefully a great resource for those that dedicate their lives to making the lives of children better. thank you, mr attorney general for bringing your attention to this important topic. >> my name is greg boyle. the largest reentry program and rehab in the country. 15,000 folks walk through our doors every year. there are 1100 gains in l.a. county and 36,000 gang members or thereabouts. we run seven businesses. rival and the gang members work side by side with each other.

10,000 laser or tattoo removal treatments are offered every year along with mental health, case management, training, a anger management, domestic violence counseling and the like. gang violence -- we want to offer a palpable sense of community in the hope that that will from gangs. we are an exit ramp on this crazy freeway of gained involvement and unless we have a way to redirect their lives it will become futile. everybody who walks in the bourse obviously has been impacted by violence in their history and childhood and the hope is to invite them to transform their pain so the victim will cease to transmit it and so we have kids in the inner

city kids who plan the funeral and not their futures so my hope for the committee is that we will have a high degree of reference for our complex this issue is and we are more likely to embrace solutions -- i feel greatly privileged to be part of that. >> good morning, everybody. everyone is somber out there. i didn't see any coffee cups in the courtroom. my name is antonio taguba. i'm retired army soldier. i had the privilege of working through a lot of similar programs we have. most importantly on domestic violence policy, through legislation and family advocacy programs and developmental child abuse services to the community so hopefully i will be able to

contribute a little of my experience on the task force. i want to thank the attorney general for pointing me to the task force. thank you very much. >> my name is dr. sharon cooper. i am from north carolina. to the national center for missing and exploited children where i worked for the last 14 years in helping us to understand violence in cyberspace. i am the chair person of our child homicide and identification taskforce in the county in north carolina that has the highest child homicide rate in north carolina. i am honored to participate in this opportunity and eager to bring to the table hopefully the words of children who have been victims and i would like to think attorney-general holder for this opportunity. >> good morning.

i am deanne durfee, executive director of los angeles county interagency council on child abuse and neglect. i chair the national center on review and i was the final house share of the united states advisory board on child abuse and neglect. child abuse for four decades starting as a social worker and administrator. when i joined ican it became clear that one agency cannot solve this problem and as we start with nine agencies we grew to 32. each of those agencies actively participate in the work that we do in our 20 task forces and committees and we have two big conferences. won the attorney general has spoken of called nexus. the effect of violence in the home on children and a new one on the traumatic grief and loss to children so these issues are extremely important to me. only thinking about that toddler

and that may be listening to parents scream and yell at each other and then the father shoots the mother and somebody comes out not because they heard a cry but because they heard the gunshots and the baby starts a cycle of foster care maybe 30 or 40 different homes and at the end we are trying to deal with what father boyle is dealing with. thank you so much, attorney general eric holder. i know how many years you have been focused on this issue and dedicated to it and it is so unique and incredibly important did to the children of this country. thank you. >> i am robert listenbee. thank you for being here. thank you for continuing supporting us. i am with a section of harvard medical school. the decision of disaster resilience. also founded and could directed does after resilience which has over the last 15 years worked

with 720,000 children in 17 countries in 12 states i am a clinical psychologist and practicing researcher. what we found in experience and in the field and in our research is that there is excellent opportunity for us to prevent violence without suppressing it illegal to create interventions that allow children to move out of the cycle of violence. that is the good news. the challenge in news the attorney-general said we will prevail is we have to tackle structural racism, trans generation impoverishment and trans generational enslavement. i think we can do that. we appreciate the opportunity to be part of the panel. >> my name is georgina mendoza, community safety director for the city of selena, california,

i have been two hours of san francisco. one of the main things we are working on is preventing and reducing gained and youth violence in the city. our city is mostly latino and our gains are the northerners and southerners. one of the ways we are looking to reduce gang violence is through coordinated and comprehensive approach. we believe prevention, intervention, enforcement and reentry are critical to work simultaneously if we are going to have a significant and a long-lasting impact. the california city gained prevention network as well as national forum on youth violence prevention which is a white house initiative. i am deeply honored to be part of this task force and i thank attorney-general holder and all of you for being here. i look forward to learning more on strategies and recommendations that have proven

to be successful and can be used to work as a model for the rest of the nation, state and local levels. thank you very much. >> thank you for this opportunity. my name is sarah deer, assistant professor of law at mitchell college in minnesota. i am a citizen of the kobe creek nation. most of my work looked at the intersection of tribal issues and victim issues particularly interested in domestic violence and children exposed to domestic violence. the intersection of domestic violence and child abuse but more specifically the concern that indian reservations have the highest rate of crime in the united states. so i am looking to consider both rural and tribal issues as the task force moves forward and i am deeply grateful for the opportunity and the chance to work with the department on this

issue and i am particularly grateful to the survivors of violence who will be speaking with us over the next year and i hope you know that your words are as vital as any academic we need to hear from you. thank you very much. >> thank you again, attorney general holder for your focus on the epidemic of children exposure to violence. it is an honor to serve on your national task force for children exposed to violence. as you noted childhood victimization can have long-lasting effects, one of which is higher risk of juvenile delinquency and adult criminal behavior. we are living in an era in which homicide is the leading cause of death for african-american youth and the second leading cause of death for all youth. entire communities are involved

in violence. in detroit which is 20 miles from my home town there were more homicides between 2003, and 2010 than there were u.s. troops killed in afghanistan in the same time period. more deaths by homicide in one american city than u.s. casualties in a war zone. baltimore children are eight times as likely to die from homicide as kids nationwide. boys and girls in the juvenile justice system often have experienced violence and victimization before they get into the system and may experience violence when they are in the system, pounding the effect. the juvenile justice system is a critical point in the school to prison pipeline. one that we can use as an opportunity to intervene. to provide rehabilitative intervention that encourage healing for children who are repeating the same cycle of violence they observe in their

homes, schools and community. the federal advisor recommit and juvenile justice has recommended diversion programs as a major policy alternative. the foundation will soon complete and publish its manual on diversion policy. we have to look for opportunity to identify youth who are experiencing or witnessing violence and provide them and their families with the kind of resources and support that will help them. r. m. on again to the co-chair of this task force and part of the extraordinary effort it represents. we recognize that our goal is to identify ways to prevent children's exposure but to violence and reduce its negative events. we look forward to hearing from those impacted by violence and from experts in the field and identifying solutions. >> when we started our

foundation of remember getting people to be interested in what we were doing, i talked about domestic violence and they kept saying it was a woman's issue. attorney general holder, i want to thank you for keeping the issue addressing children exposure to violence as a top priority. it is so important. every year many children are affected by some form of violence. over three million of them experience in their own homes. there is no worse emotion and fear. i was never physically abused but the fear that my dad brought to my house in abusing my mom was very personal, very real. being the youngest of five children my oldest siblings tried to keep it from me. there was a lot of whispering going on. of big gap between my age and my

next oldest. it was the whispering that went on that i felt i had done something wrong. it was a weird feeling. i did witness my dad because he was a police officer threatening my mom with a gun. he never physically abused me but i saw the results of what he did to my mom. i used to come home from school in the afternoon. if his car was in front of the house i would go to a friend's house until he left for work. i was embarrassed to share my feelings because i thought i was the only one in a neighborhood or anywhere that had this going on in their home. when we started our foundation i had friends that i grew up with that new nothing about it and were very surprised about the revelation once i started talking about it. kids need to know that violence isn't the secret that they have

to keep. we have to help them speak up for themselves. we know that witnessing violence between one's parents or caretakers is the strongest risk factor of transmitting violent behavior from one generation to the next. we know some kids get through these situations without continuing the cycle and some kids can find an escape but others do not. and we need to help them find a way through this. i was very fortunate. i had the ability to play baseball. i have a place that made me feel good about myself. i carried this into my adult life and i really didn't discover about connecting the dots with my fears and my lack of self-esteem. i didn't really face that or get

that understanding and shall probably 1995. at that point in time i realized i needed to talk about this issue. some things are certainly kept a secret my whole life even from my wife. i was lucky. ahead that ability to escape. children are our treasure. they are the leaders of the future. these youngsters need to be tended to and be helped and as a society, whatever it is we can do to reach the kids who are living in fear and make their lives saved is our obligation to do that. to let each child have a safe place to go to. that is what spells success. i can't tell you how privileged i am to serve on this task force. i feel especially someone who is in public life and have phone calls returned when you leave a

message that is our responsibility to address this issue because it is so vitally important for us to do and i thank attorney-general holder for that. i will introduce the first panel which is called voices experiencing children's exposure to violence. the young people who experience and witnessed violence are at particular risk of lasting physical and emotional harm but also have the capacity for healing and transformation. this panel we will hear from members of the greater baltimore community who have endured and survived various forms of child exposure to violence. sexual abuse, domestic violence and community violence. we are honored they have chosen to share their stories with us to eliminate the cost of c e v for children and communities as well as a signpost for

resilience. i would like to introduce our panelists for right now. earl el-amin, the president imam of muslim community cultural center of baltimore. as community elder, el-amin will speak about the rise in community violence in baltimore over the course of his lifetime. special emphasis on the change in the economic landscape that gave rise to high rates of male unemployment and the related rise of intercommunity violence. he will describe coming of age rituals his organization offers young people who are exposed to violence in his community. next would be rosa:-- almond. she will speak about prosecuting her husband for domestic violence against her and her children with her children

sought to protect her. this jacqueline jacquelynn kuhn was sexually abused as a child and as an adult found herself in abusive intimate relationship. she will speak about how she is healing from these patterns in her own life through educating others about detecting and preventing child sexual abuse. earl el-amin. >> good morning. task force members. i am imam earl el-amin, lifetime resident of baltimore city. noted leader in the muslim community. over the last 30, 25 years i served in various capacities of leadership in the muslim community but also the community at large. very historic meetings with pope

john paul and also helped to associate first historic dollar between imams and rabbis three years ago. also serve as vice president for the national center institution which started in 1977. i have been on and off the last 20 years and it has been involved in juvenile and criminal justice system with 460,000 people, 30% are's offenders and a talk-show host at morgan state university. i work for the urban league as director of family and children's services and diversion program that was very successful. and was the independent juvenile justice monitor in the glendening administration in the state of maryland.

my father used to say before he speaks qualify yourself. i guess i am a little nervous but i am not. served as a leadoff hitter on my college team so are always batted first. i guess i am batting first again. it was a good set too. i got to lakeland, florida. i will begin my testimony with a simple but profound statement. once you see is not what you'd get. what you see is what gets you. our inability to fire off consistent images and acts of violence in physical, sexual and gang-related, school based and community center is paramount to many of the problems we see in society. even vote that are not part perpetrated through the violence, still experience this

daily. it is ubiquitous, reaching every facet of society, permeating communities and schools, persistently displayed through media and television and esteemed in sports. for example in football and basketball the greater aggression and violence lead to a higher or greater applause. how do you hit a person or make a tackle in football, be more applause you get. similarly the most revered player in basketball is the slam dunk and the harder the dunk or more violent the better it is considered. it is a conflicting message for our young people and most can't make sense of it. i looked yesterday at the x box and what they are promoting and i don't know if i could do that for 25 minutes and not be offended. it permeates our society.

. baltimore city, growing up here, being raised here the loss of jobs and brake down in the community and influence of drugs and lack of fathers in the home also drive many issues related to community violence in baltimore. even though the city has produced many -- from thurgood marshall, cab calloway, benjamin carson and i could go on and on with what i have grown up with in my 60 years on this planet. this city is very much a blue-collar city and historically education has not been at a premium for large portions of the african-american community. there was a time when you didn't have to get a high school diploma here. you could earn good money working in the steel mills here. copper, general electric,

western electric, those places defend industry so men that migrated from the south from virginia, north carolina, south carolina looking for a better life, work as laborers, unskilled laborers in the steel mills and the shipyards. this allowed men to present positive fixtures and role models within their homes and communities. we studied migratory patterns in baltimore, you could come from north carolina, reside in the 1200 block of eager street and all those folks in the 1200 block were related and they weren't related but they married into one another's families and so they established strong,

profound sense of pride in community. the ensuing decline in the defense industry and steel industry going to japan changed--the largest employer in baltimore metropolitan area is the johns hopkins health care so the paradigm has shifted from men to women. although life wasn't perfect in these neighborhoods and what was described. i'm talking about most of the communities were functional. similar regions married families. this happens not only in baltimore, washington, philadelphia, new york, all up and down the east coast and cities throughout the united states of america. that was an interconnectedness between people. the change in baltimore after the riots, the urban flight took place. many of these east and west baltimore families went out of the city to close the steel

mills, end of the drug trade. the influx of drugs in northern neighborhood violence of young boys, rockefeller lot which allowed adults were no longer involved in the drug trade so they handed it to the younger children who couldn't cope with it and the drug trade we saw became very violent. the idea of making quick money in a society that reaches immediate gratification. instant coffee and potatoes and what a relief it is and all those things speak to the psyche of a young child as well as adults in society. so this dream has played out with these young children. now we see a city and it was portrayed by many of you watching this series of the wires, a city that has been dismantled by the drug trade and

the violence these children are participating in. i want to get to this because you have the gangs, the rise of the gangs but all this is a result of what we call in our organization the absent that the club. this absent daddy club is now what you see gangs and this whole violence. you don't see a man you can't be a man. in order to be a man you have to see a man because what you see is not what you get but what gets you. that could be negative or positive. so this city now, a group of people have gotten together. we have formed coalitions, religious coalitions, interface coalition that community based coalitions and many years ago in 1987-'88 we established a right of passage program for young boys and girls and so we expose children to different environments. we believe that you expose you

can inspire so children are exposed outside of these environments they are in. these young people are young people. they are easily impressed by a lot of things. right now we hope and pray we can establish an environment that is peace for these children and a peaceful environment. we need to know what peace is for ourselves before we can show children. a lot of this is a lot of anger we see. with this right of passage bringing young boys and girls from boys to manhattan girls to womanhood, these programs are designed to evolve them to make a positive contribution. there are many organizations out there in baltimore city metropolitan areas doing great work. is not feasible. we are not going to get a pat on the back. we are doing this because we are supposed to do this.

we have put billboards and cars and bumper stickers and just one thing. our community, our responsibility. we also believe words make people and when people receive that they understand our community is our responsibility. i close with this. i would like to say that we have a tough job ahead as holder stated. it is not insurmountable. you don't know how strong you are until you get something that is strong. we believe we can overcome this because truth always prevails over falsehood. thank you very much and may god bless us in our efforts. >> thank you very much. miss almond? >> my name is rosa almond. i moved here from -- to merriman from new jersey four years ago

because my husband's job. i have two children, freddie who is 10 and rihanna who is 9. when i first met my husband he swept me off my feet. he was charming and loving and generous and a total gentleman. i felt very protected. we had a beautiful wedding in the beginning and we had a beautiful wedding and a great marriage in the beginning. things started changing as time went on. hy started to realize he had a huge anchor problem. he would punish boris and throw objects when he was mad. after our son was born in his anger increased. after my see section in the hospital fred was going back and forth to the hospital and on one of his trips a kid ran into the back of his car and he got out of his car and punch in the kit in the face and there was a

witness and the kid pressed charges and fred got off because we had a friend or family member who was a lawyer that really scared me. when he came to the hospital to tell me i got scared. told him i needed him and i was scared he would go to jail for punching this kid in the face. he called me a bitch so much that my 1-year-old son learned to call me a bitch and he called me that often. shortly after my son was born i found out that i knew he was married before for five months but i found out he also insulted his ex-wife. i found a warrant for his arrest that i didn't know about until then. on december of 2005 fred was on his christmas break from work. we got into an argument and he came after me and grabbed my

neck. i left of the house with my two children for four days and went to my sister's house that was 45 minutes away. i would have come home until fred made an appointment to see an anger management dr.. he kept calling me and calling me and apologizing, begging me to come, and i wouldn't until he did that. he did go to a few sessions but that did not help. he would stand over me when he was angry many times with a fist and just stand over me. he is much bigger than me and scared me. in 2009 things were not getting better with fred and i. marriage counseling didn't tell. i told him i wanted a divorce. he told me he would kill me and put a knife in my head. he called a factor for, agley bitch and many other horrible names. a couple days later i got a protective order. in november we decided to work

things out for the sake of the children and i dropped the protective order. he became abusive towards children. february of 2010 brian hurt by a son -- he took her by the hair and dragged her across the house. that resulted in a bust. apologized to her but my daughter will be scarred for life because of this. i was afraid to contact the police because i thought he would get in trouble. he often slammed my son on the couch when he got a angry. the final straw was on may 10th -- may twelfth, 2000 eleven, fred got angry because i was trying to leave the house with the kids. he took my laptop and slammed it on the floor. i tried to calm 911 with myself on that he snatched the phone away. my son handed me the house phone. fred threw me on the ground and

started punching and hitting me. my kids witnessed this horrible abuse. they were screaming and crying. i never thought he would do this in front of my kids. if the kid hadn't been there he probably would have killed me. he lost total control. each day i pray for fred to get the help he needs to control his anger problem. i never want him to hurt my kids again. my husband is not the man he pretended to be. one of my old co-workers who was good friends with him in new jersey warned me it was all a facade. he had everybody--including boys of the family. my father's -- told me he played football in high school to channel his anchor. i was shocked when i was in court after are filed charges that his mother got on the stand and lied to protect her son. not only had she let me down,

his sister sent me texts that included cursing. everyday i had to look over my shoulder when i'm alone. fred took away the only thing that brought peace to was. he stopped paying the alarm bill. my son makes sure most of the knights and asks me if i put the alarm on. he is afraid to sleep with the light off also. fred did not have a criminal record because he has attended in the management programs. he has only gotten probation in the past and has had his record expunged. i asked the court to let him be accountable this time around. i asked the restraining order remain permanent for the rest of my life. the judge only gave him unsupervised probation. he also could not touch your come cme for five years. i also asked that he not be

allowed to contact me, only through e-mail or text concerning our children. i want to get on with my life and perhaps my happiness one day through prayer counseling and support of our loved ones. hopefully my children and i will get there. thank you for listening to my testimony. i hope that it is helpful in your work in protecting children from the many forms of violence. i am actually a realtor for long and foster now but after being here and having the honor to be here i could see myself helping women and children that have gone through the same experience that i have gone through. thank you. >> thank you, miss tierney. very brave. jacquelynn kuhn. >> i am 30 years old and a child sexual abuse survivor.

my abuse began when i was 5. at the time my family lived in a small michigan town. my abuser was a teenage boy who lived next door to us. he would take me loan to a tree house that was in the yard behind ours. at first he just laid down on top of me during our game plan and simulated sex with our clothes on. at such a young age and never having been talk to about sex i didn't know what sex was so this type of play was confusing. but then the abuse escalated to fondling and other acts of sex. i know a lot of people wonder why kids don't tell when this is happening to them. people need to understand that child molesters are masters of manipulation and they know what to say to make sure victims never tell. first he threatened me. he told me a 5 told anyone or stopped letting him abuse me he

would bring my older brother or my younger sister in the tree house and do worse things to them. then he made me feel ashamed. told me if i didn't like what was happening i would not be allowed to play outside with my friends. . then he convinced me that i would be the one to get in trouble. when i did finally threatened that i would tell my father and that he would go to jail for the bad things he was doing he laughed and told me i was doing the same bad things. and i would be the one to go to jail because my father would be angry that i hadn't told him earlier. one of the most important parts of my story that i like to share with people is that my father was a michigan state trooper. many nights there was a police car parked in front of my house

and my father would come home in his uniform carrying his bat and his gun. if that won't keep a child molester at bay, what will? if i felt as though i could not tell my father who was a police officer at the time what was happening to me, why would anyone question children who don't have police officers as fathers? might abuse only ended when i was 7 years old because my father was transferred to a new post in the state of michigan and we moved. i never told my family about maya abuse until just recently after i turned 30 and went through a painful divorce from a man i was married to for ten plus years who also abused me. he knew about my abusive past and made me feel as if i wasn't good enough in our bedroom because of some emotional or psychological issues i was trying to work through during our marriage. instead of letting me for problems of the struggling through he abused me by carrying on extramarital affairs with

many different women and treating me at times as if i were a paid performer for him in my bed room. he even got a vasectomy so he could sleep with other women without wearing a condom. was 35 marriage that my personal defense mechanism, perfection is more the illusion of it was at its strongest. i had gone back to school to finish a bachelor's degree and when i entered the intensive accelerated academic program i've booked a full-time class vote every semester and work full time as well. i made it my goal to achieve a 4.0 g p a and r remember we think because i thought might receive an a minus instead of an a and this would ruin my hopes of finishing with a perfect grade point average but i did it. i earned the 4 point but the funny thing about academic records is they don't equate to good grades on a report card of life. in that department i failed way

more than once. i have been divorced, laid off and fired from jobs and have always been a struggle to build solid friendships that last more than a few years. as a survivor of child sexual abuse i struggle with every personal relationship that i have. before ended my marriage i made an appointment for marriage counseling for which my ex-husband never showed up but it turned out to be a good thing for me because i needed counseling for my own struggles and issues. it was during these sessions that i figured out i needed to tell my family about the sexual abuse i suffered as a child. i think part of me was scared my parents wouldn't believe me. another part of me was scared they would downplay my abuse and not care that it happened. instead just tell me to get over it because i'm an adult now. that is the same fear every survivor faces. the fear of wondering if anyone really cares about you including your own family. we always fear of rejection. i'm working on trusting people

enough to love me for who i am now. because i was 5 years old and had sex i was made to feel as though i were a throwaway. someone who doesn't matter. someone who has no word for value in the eyes of others. some days i am still at 5-year-old girl. that is how powerful the shame and guilt can be for a victim who doesn't get help through treatment and community support when he or she is still in that stage of being a victim. without reporting their abuse or receiving acceptances, support and empowerment from a caring community that surrounds them they end up with live just like mine where they continue to be abused in different relationships and even themselves. that is why i began volunteering my time and talent with adam rosenberg of baltimore child abuse centers and is dedicated staff in march of this year. baltimore child abuse center is a nonprofit agency that performs

crucial work in the lives of child sexual abuse victims in baltimore. not only does it conduct interviews for child victims in a safe, nonthreatening environment also provides advocacy for victims and its families. i also decide the butterfly mosaic mural in d.c. the mural is called life after abuse and symbolizes the hope for revealing in every victim and survivor of child sexual abuse. as a survivor to be able to see myself in the reflected mirrors of one of those butterflies and know that i am on a path that is healing self expression and beauty is a very powerful thing and to know it is because so many people in the community banded together to work on this mosaic, putting broken pieces of tile that symbolize broken pieces of my life and the lives of all sexual abuse victims together in a way that makes sense and creates a beautiful picture from something that

happened that didn't make sense and was extremely ugly. knowing that has taught me how valuable i am. nearly 100 community volunteers put in 40 hours of work to help me put together that beautiful mural. i am also currently working with many talented people in baltimore including eastern song writers and poets and artists to develop a program to encourage healing and abuse victims. by using a variety of creative art forms it is my hope that child victims of sexual abuse and adult survivors will learn to heal and trust and find their voice. i will continue to promote see cac and work for the prevention coordinator at cc ac to tell my story to help parents and educators to recognize signs of

sexual abuse and to know how to respond appropriately. this way i feel like i won't be wasting my life and my passion for studying hope for victims and survivors and helping to prevent this crime from happening to more children. in conclusion i would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify today and be part of this important task force and i hope my story and the work i am doing inspires others to embrace victims and survivors of child sexual abuse. >> thank you very much. this is a period that we will have questions. >> thank you all very much for sharing your personal stories. exactly the kind of information we at the task force need to iran is important for us to hear. have a question for jacquelynn kuhn. what could have helped you as a

child, to tell your parents or some other trusted adult about what you were living through? >> empowerment. i think parents labor under the delusion that the schools are teaching their children about what are per. touches and what is safe and unsafe and at the same time school are laboring under the delusion that parents are teaching their children and this is a message that needs to be enforced--reinforced constantly that children and own their bodies and those bodies belong to them and nobody should be touching them. if i had been taught that and if i had been taught the correct anatomical names for my body parts i would have felt safer telling somebody. >> thank you. >> i think the witness for testimony. [inaudible]

>> what you experienced as a child was a long way to many families and i'm glad you're not alone and you are here today. i did have one question, miss almond. when you were talking about your experiences and how horrific they were, thank you for sharing with us, i did want to know at any point in terms of your feeling and being physically threatened, whether there was any place, any agency, police or otherwise to whom you feel you could turn for any reliable protection? >> i did contact department of social services for one of the times my husband thank my daughter and was carried my children but they said it was not against the law to spain

cure child in maryland unless you leave a mark. so crying out for help than, i didn't feel they did with they were supposed to do to protect me and a few months later he dragged my daughter across the house by her hair. i don't think that they responded even when i did report which was a few months after he dragged my daughter. i showed them, took pictures of her bald spot and showed him the hair on the counter and that detective just said i don't want to make you feel like this is not important but i have far more -- other cases where children's arms are broken the brazilian a sense that what he did to her wasn't as important, sort of. so that disappointed me. i want to touch on that. i was also abused as a child.

my grandfather molested me when i was 7 years old. and my family, we were at my grandmother's house on long island and my sister went down because she heard something going on. she was also in the room and the lights were out and she called my grandmother up and my grandmother turned on the lights and she was so angry and she started kicking me while i was on the ground and asking what was going on. i just remember the whole family getting together and it was -- to this they to me it seems a little twisted but they said we were going to forgive and forget. my parents never knew about it. i only told my father about it when my sister was pregnant or just had her son who is now 21 and it was on the way back from

the hospital that i finally told my father. he was upset that i had never told him when i was a child that i was afraid of our family. breaking up. and causing problems for the old family. to touch on that i went for the same thing too. i am sure that affects me too in some of my relationships as an adult. but i am getting counseling to help me deal with that also. >> thank you, miss almond. thank you for your courage and your self-respect and your willingness to empower us. a question for each of you, jacquelynn kuhn and miss almond. given the story, the narrative and what you have seen and how you have continued and not quit

and not given up can you help us as a taskforce to understand what kept you going, what it is that allowed you to get to this place today? birdy were sitting before us trying to help? >> for me it was my faith community. having personal faith in god and have a relationship like that definitely helped me, being able to recognize the being of perfect love andh and contribut

to the stigma of why family is very supportive. i'm happy i'm in my house and not walking on egg shells. i feel like i am surrounded by love and support and i go to church and pray and ask god to help me every day. that is what i do to help me get through it. >> thank you. >> let me add one point to this. helpful to have a three of you here. how difficult or frustrating or easy was it to get a restraining order or protective order for that -- was that fast or

difficult? >> the first time it was. i remember going down and getting one and the girl wasn't so helpful. it was not -- i say this was the second time. i had two restraining orders. the second time it was -- i guess i got there around midnight after the attack and i was frazzled to begin with. my neighbor came with me and she didn't tell me not to write on the front or back of the sheet. she had me write it and being not nice and it made me want to leave because i was so frustrated. i guess it was kind of easy. i kind of knew what to do the second time because the first time also i have a lawyer that

worked downtown and his office was next to mine and i told him what i was going through and told me what i should do or where i should go like that night he said if you ever have a problem again after hours, go to the commissioner's office at the courthouse. at least i knew where to go the second time. the first time -- i don't believe it was that long ago. the second time is more fresh in my mind. the first time i don't remember having such a problem getting it. >> do you feel that the right path -- that other interface communities can take on?

and how could we have the task force encourage the community to recognize boys in particular being the most common perpetrators of the types of violence we are seeing and that children are exposed to? >> it was not in the context of religious -- it was community-based. so african-american leadership institute, a myriad of men with a different face persuasions. some had limited -- they understood the need. i don't want to eliminate the young ladies. what we are saying -- the head of the girls juvenile services in baltimore city. we're seeing an inordinate amount of girls -- violence

perpetrated. we want to -- we think the best way -- doesn't necessarily -- has to be a model predicate on showing young people what is supposed to be -- we have to get back to what is human. what are human beings. what is a human being do? we want to provide environments where we see people that are flourishing so children can see that and a lot of them incorporate that. they want to do other things. it is loving but also intense and you go through different stages in your evolution from boyhood to manhood. it is on going.

all of us are still evolving in our evolution as men and women. we would encourage you to support that. and the diversion is very important. it is very important but a family advocacy model. johnny can come the counseling for every day. if he goes to end dysfunctional environment every day you are back at square one everytime he comes back. it has to be involved with significant others and a family model that allows everyone to be involved in this process. the parents or the significant others have to buy into this also in order for it to be successful. >> thank you very much for

coming to the task force. really inspires -- there are problems some folks have. but for you, imam. you have an enduring mission here on inner-city violence. for the most part this takes a lot of resources to provide energy and in our times of environmental conditions in the community's social programs force the that no matter where you go. in your context there was the context -- could you highlight the types of resources and you are getting or not getting success in propagating the right of passage you are doing today and how we are improving the lives of our youngsters? lives of our youngsters? >> started out in many

that we were fortunate hall on a lot of programs are by people committed to do what they're doing and what they sacrificed on the front end or the back end, it will be productive for

them. it is a matter in many instances, something else. a gentleman later on, will speak to this. in many instances a lot of these people have a desire to work in communities and the barriers that are there to receive types of funding, so difficult to receive the funding because they don't have an accountant or a grant writer or these things so consequently many programs being funded are not necessarily the best programs but have the best grand writers and the best accountants, you see? what is happening here on many fronts, the people who are really sincere about what they are doing are not getting the opportunity with enough resources to really, really make a profound impact. they are doing great stuff and

they can make a profound impact if given this opportunity for people with expertise to help them to work through this process when they are trying to acquire these funds that the justice department -- when you open up a package what does that say? dedicated individual today -- we can't do this. we can't do this. some avenues people have been supportive it hopkins, they have been very supportive in those situations and other instances they don't give up but they say i am not going through it. we will do it like we do it. we will piecemeal let and go forward and put our trust in god. >> if i could follow up on that area, the gentleman sitting behind you, acting administrator

-- [laughter] -- sends out those big thick -- [laughter] -- i just want to say one of the things they focus on is look at programs in search of models and look at promising approaches and best practices and eventually a model or blueprint that can be developed or used across the nation. getting to the point where you have a model of an involved and evaluation by those societies that come in. the right of passage program found the kind of program that will be useful across the nation. the question always asked is whether there has been anyone who has had an opportunity to evaluate the program to look at this structure and determine the referral process and whether it works. we heard the attorney general speaker earlier. we're looking for what works and wants to get rid of what doesn't

work and channel our money into what does work. have you had an opportunity to have a right of passage program evaluated and what happens as a result? >> throughout the country there was a regular passage collected over the years. started in 1987. the first was in baltimore city and mushroomed throughout the country. there are programs throughout the country doing the rights and they have had folks come in and look at it and review the program. overtime, some of them were highlighted for the work they have been able to do. urban leadership institute in baltimore city and other groups. >> dr. lee still here? dr. lee could provide you with a lot -- a list of -- not necessarily a right of passage.

doesn't have to be an ethnic model but it is a model that takes a boy and girl -- girl would to womanhood. they are out there. >> the evaluations could be sensitive to the task force we really benefit from that. >> what other people have said, thank you for what you shared with us today. incredibly brave and heart wrenching at the same time. i have a question for imam el-amin. you were speaking -- expressing some generalizations about the rights of passage program. could you present for us an example of a specific person who has gone through your program and benefited from having gone through this and what that might

look like? >> as a young man, got about 50 sons -- as a young man who started with us when he was 8 years old. he is a grown man. she is married. responsible citizen. he is on one of the boards of community college in baltimore city. he is an attorney. part of his right of passage was we had a two way talk show at morgan state university. part of his right of passage -- he has his own program. at that level -- we have many young men who are doing very

well in the community that a president and neighborhood association. when i measure that progress to me it is real progress. doesn't necessarily mean he is a schoolteacher or a lawyer but as a responsible individual in the neighborhood. to me that is the ultimate. he is a model of manhood and fatherhood. that is the ultimate. >> thank you so much. each one of you presented eloquently and touched our hearts. i was going to mention we have a program called cellphone down in l.a.. you probably heard of it. kids who don't have a father have someone they can call on a cellphone and those are available 24/7. is that something you inc.? >> no we haven't.

i have heard of it but never researched it. that would be something that would be a good nationwide model. [laughter] >> i heard you twice the first time. >> the question for rosa jacquelynn kuhn, what about the kids? have they received any kind of grief counseling? in particular, rosa, you are pretty raw out of the situation. hasn't been that long. hasn't been a year. the you receive the kind of support? is your counseling a group kind of counseling where you have piers, other women in similar situations and you can call on at any point in time in the day or night when you are feeling this incredible reverberation from having been through what

you have been fruitless be a multi generational victim? there are a lot of open wounds still that i don't think you have had time to feel totally. you're working on it. you look great and sound great but i know in the middle of the night there have to be times you are terrified. i am wondering if you have that kind of support, people you can call on at any time of the day or night. >> i was referred to turnaround which is located in thousand for victims of domestic violence and right after the attack last year my kids and i started going and eventually after a few months they released us or discharged as. now that my divorce trial is

coming up next month, the fourteenth and the fifteenth, my son -- is affecting him. ahead to take him back. in the past -- his father has said right before we have been to court so many times, postponement after postponement and one time my x told my son he may be going to jail. by sun the next week said he was mad about something -- said he was going to kill himself. so turnaround has been great. i rushed him there and they would work with each of us to help us get through it. right now it is tough for him so i have taken him again and started going myself because i felt i was breaking down. at night, late at night if it wasn't for my sleeping i would

never sleep. so my sleeping pills, i can't be without them. started back in new jersey when things started going bad. the number one person who has helped me was my sister. she is back there. she came from new jersey to be with me today. if it wasn't for her i don't know. i probably would have had a mental breakdown. but that is my rock. she is here today. >> question for imam. being in the sports business and he mentioned opening up about the hardest hit and the loudest slam gets all the glory. and it is a conflicting message. i don't think there's any question especially if we have our high school kids go out on friday night and coach is telling them attack, attack and

they go on a date later in the evening and suddenly the rules don't apply. i am not sure they know that. do you have a suggestion? the thing about the baseball stuff or the football stuff, it is happening on tv. one to yield loudest gets to talk. it is all very consistent. i know it drives me nuts. it is not that long of a drive for me. do you have a suggestion? >> we live in a society -- and you find if we look at it, you find when the economy is at its lowest point, sports car pushed a little harder. it gives u