and what do you think of the current wall street protest? >> where to put your money today? i don't think i'm getting paid enough to offer that kind of advice. [laughter] what do i make of the occupy wall street protest? i think it's fascinating. i'm a little bit surprised that it took this long, but, in fact, -- [applause] in fact if you remember, the original agenda of the so-called tea party movement was its complaint against the bailout of wall street, but by maneuvers that i don't entirely comprehend. it was largely taken over by the republican party. i think the republican party starting to have second thoughts about this. but the protests of the occupy wall street movement remind me very much of the protest of the

1890s, where at first when the populists got together they didn't have much of an agenda but they had a sense that things had really gone wrong. and that people who worked hard were not being rewarded. people were suffering the consequences of other people since and missteps. and in a country that was premised on the american dream, that dream became harder and harder to realize. and so they simply began to protest at first. they didn't know quite what they wanted to do, except to let people know that they were fed up with this. it's very early to tell i think with the occupy wall street movement intends to accomplish, except to get the word out that there are a lot of people that are very unhappy. the populists eventually devise an agenda. they put forward candidates, some of the candidates one. their highest profile candidate, william jennings bryan, did not win the presidency, but the

platform that he ran on was in most ways actually accomplished. the united states did not monetize silver, but it turned out that new discoveries in gold in the next half decade did increase the american money supply. and prices begin to rise again. so, i would be surprised if an occupy wall street candidates were nominated, ran for president next year. but i wouldn't be surprised if the various grievances that they are air -- haring became important in the next election. >> can i give debuts one second to comment on this? >> yeah, speaking of one of the 80 on people who started up the movie in new york, yeah, we are not intending to do that, but i think all of us would say that.

the way the book and the movement army in the same way, we have talked about the things that really important with a loud the conversation in this country, went and played away from the concerns of the fact that people actually have any day-to-day life. i think that's what occupy wall street was about. just change the nature of the political conversation in discourage and put into that i think that's amazing in and of itself. [applause] >> thank you all for coming. >> this is a tent full of readers, i would recommend if you want to know more about this topic i would direct you to not only buy these books but also take a look at richard hostettler's book, the age of reform. but weren't these guys great? one more hand. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] >> you're watching book tv on c-span2. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> up next, booktv sat down with george washington university professor marcy norton to discuss her book, "sacred gifts, profane pleasures." this is about 20 minutes. >> george washington professor marcy norton, where did snickers bar and mara broke him from? >> well, we have to go way back in time, tobacco and chocolate are both native to the americas. and were developed by indians. tobaccos in the distant past several thousand years b.c. and a cow which is the raw central

ingredient to chocolate, likewise, made about 3000 b.c. and so they were central to native americans and when europeans had no knowledge of that until they arrived starting with columbus in 1492. and went from their. >> how would they use in these ancient cultures? >> so, tobacco was used in a whole multitude of ways. smoked, cigars, pipes, sort of cigarette like substances also use topically as medicines, snuffed through the nose. in the most. a whole host of applications, sword bearing depending on the region. chocolate had a more restricted domain. so what really important is to remember is that it was a beverage, almost exclusively not dissing america's but in europe

until the 18th or 19th century. so it was a stimulant beverage use in some some ways the way we think of coffee today. and i could go on about it. >> please do. >> chocolate had a more restricted domain in the americas and tobacco. it was used by groups we know today as aztec and mayan and other groups in the broader region, call mesoamerica. and it was, many different concoctions, but one of the favorite lines had cacao, the central ingredient, mixed with water. and then a whole of spices, chili peppers gave it a kind of spicy bite, and others which made it read, and the redness is really actually very central to the experience, reminded people of blood. and flavorings such as the nl and two other common ones we don't use anymore never

respected to the americas for the most part. but decade a kind of a cinnamon experience. in consuming chocolate, for instance, it was really a whole sensory experience that it wasn't just about the case, it was also about texture. there was a foam on top is really important to mesoamerican's as they consumed it. special drinking vessels made out of ceramic that were lacquered. so important that these vessels were actually part of the tribute that the. >> guest: ruler, montezuma, had. so that was sort of the fiscal competition but it was also incredibly important culturally. chocolate was seen as one of the perks of the elite. is a kind of conspicuous consumption to drink find chocolate. and it was really important in sociability. so you couldn't have meeting of

diplomats or traders without chocolate. and it was often used in very ceremonial ritual before any kind of feasting would begin. among aztec cultures there would be ceremony use of chocolate and tobacco together, and served in this very choreographed manner. and one of the arguments of my book is that when europeans arrived, they actually adopted the customs almost, there were some differences but there was essential continuity like mesoamerican come europeans began to associate him as quintessential symbols of sociability, and also a status in the case of chocolate. tobacco i've sort of more different uses among different social levels. and even, for instance, today with valentine's day association with the chocolate as being kind

of erotic, and that too is something that europeans learned from mesoamerican's as well. >> so, marcy norton, in 1492 columbus comes, discovers the americas. does he bring back cacao and tobacco on that first avoid? >> well, certainly not cacao our chocolate because the area that he arrived, chocolate was in use. so he actually did run across cacao on his fourth voyage. it was off the coast of honduras. there is evidence that he actually saw chocolate itself but he saw the cacao beans and he noted how valued they work to the traders, that is described by his son as they were like eyeballs. but tobacco, he came across it seems almost immediately because of so central integrating. and the fact it was even offered

tobacco leaves as a gift which would've been sort of a traditional diplomatic gesture among those groups. he sent out men to go investigate the incident and what's today haiti and dominican republic. and there they describe people smoking. that's the first record of europeans seeing it. is evidence that he himself tried tobacco. but pretty soon afterwards, and it's not unlikely that some of his men -- the reason why it's not unlikely because it was centered in sociability that when the explorers were going out and sometimes we have this image of europeans just coming in sort of invading, which is not totally untrue but they were actually really dependent on native groups for information, for food, for diplomatic and military alliances. and so with any arriving person

over envoy who wants to get something from another group, you kind of have to make yourself conform to what their customs are when you're in a folder will position, as they were. so when in rome do as the romans do, when in the caribbean to as the caribbean to do. and that involves accepting tobacco. and when europeans arrived, what was mexico, chocolate. but there's kind of a split reaction to a making a sound like they were immediately very welcoming to the. and that wasn't the case but on the one hand they sort of were exposed to it and begin to consumer. but they also were very suspicious of it as well. tobacco, smoking a something for them a sort of reminiscent of things they thought of as witchcraft.

and they also clued on presumed that tobacco and chocolate were not only important in ritual of sociability were also part of the native religion. and part of the mission of these europeans was to bring their religion to it. and so it was very disconcerting to look at the substances, they described as kind of demonic and so for this we have this kind of almost schizophrenic reaction whereas on the one hand on the frontier they are using it, on the other hand the early chroniclers are describing tobacco in particular as emblematic of the idolatry of the native americans. this creates a kind of problem for europeans several decades down the line, more like a sentry down the line, when tobacco starts being used in europe and they become curious about its origins. they have this kind of a record of describing tobacco as kind of the ultimate idolatry and kind

of our variant behavior. so they are faced with reconciling their own new habit with the way they described it earlier on. >> when did tobacco catch on in europe? >> there's actually a significant time lag. part of the research that it did for this project, which really had not been done before, was to cut systematically look in trade records and see when we start seeing them in a systematic way. so we have evidence that there's kind of idiosyncratic imports, throughout the 16th century, throughout the 1500s. you know, as you expect that some european start to get habituate in the americas, they need their stash when they go back. particularly say to associate with tobacco early on and a few returning conquistadors. but you don't see them at all in the trade records into the 15

'90s. and that's when you have sort of a critical mass of consumers kind of we say the first adopters. and not identify sort of three vanguard groups as the kind of early users. you wouldn't be surprised that colonial sort of officials, is the aristocrats returning merchants who are involved, and then a third group which might be surprising for our contemporary sensibilities are actually clergy who were a significant group, kind would go back and forth at the clergy in particular early i found in trading records, a jazz with sang okay, from his -- we have chocolate coming in, we need some to go over here, some onto our, to rome. those are the three vanguard groups.

>> tobacco? >> and chocolate, together. once they had a foothold in places like seville which was the entrepôt for this new world, not just good but particular for a population that is comfortable on both sides of the atlantic, from there it spreads out to the court centers going to madrid and two other kind of elite cosmopolitan centers in the case of chocolate, and one of the differences between chocolate and tobacco is chocolate stars, very much an elite phenomenon and ventricles and other groups. tobacco kind of enters both on the elite level and also on a more popular level because of its use among sailors who were integrated in these more sort of popular areas as long. >> marcy norton, why did you write about chocolate and tobacco? >> for a number of reasons. one is that just on the face of it it seems to defy our kind of conventional image of the

consequences of 1492. we have a sort of steel image which is not incorrect of this meeting of the two hemispheres, and it seems almost as sort of a unilateral set of consequences for the americas. and yet here are these two goods that are going in the other direction. and so i was interested in sort of exploring this other, that sort of eastward story as well as the westward story deck another reason is i'm really interested in the meeting intersection between culture and nature. and here are two goods that are from nature that have strong aspects on the nervous system and on the body, and yet they are mediated through culture. so i was interested in the interplay of that as well, in the way that you have cultural rituals but there are also kind of, become this biological

experience as well. and when i should research way back in the '90s on this project, it was right when antidepressants are coming and a whole new way, kind of a psychotropic revolution and i thought wouldn't it be interesting to look at another psychotropic revolution in history here this one, europe that had no experience with steam that beverages or tobacco, and then what happened once again to. i want to tell people that chocolate was the first stimulant beverage that preceded coffee and tea in europe and i found that interesting to think about. >> were they ever use as political tools, or was there a demand for these products in europe at some point that were political consequences because absolutely. chocolate among european elite, just as it had been a month native and mesoamerican elite, becomes a diplomatic tool.

it becomes very similar that if you're meeting someone, also a good way to bribe an official as well, you know, foreign dignitaries, you would give them chocolate and so forth. another way in which they were politically important was that they become very important sources of state revenue. by the late 17th century, tobacco, the taxes on tobacco become the single greatest source of revenue for the spanish state. more important at that point and returns from gold and silver. so the tradition of taxing tobacco to bring in state revenue has a very ancient history. and infect tobacco, and chocolate in third but not in practice becomes state monopolies in the 1630s. and chocolate doesn't really go anywhere, but tobacco, the state becomes the exclusive purveyor of tobacco in the kingdom of,

starting in 1632. the state officials themselves don't handle it. in modern language, they outsourced the. they have contracts for the tobacco monopoly that gets leased out. and effective people who have this tobacco monopoly throughout the 17th century have run-ins with the inquisition the whole time but most of them end up incarcerated because there's seen as secret jews which become a subplot in the story. the inquisition records actually were really a rich source for this project as well. inquisitors are asking them everything about the tobacco trade. >> how widespread, what was the cost of both tobacco and chocolate? >> so, one of the things that happened with tobacco is that it becomes really segmented market. so you can buy really expensive tobacco paid by the mid-late 17th century, the most

desirable way to consume tobacco was as snuff. people were also chewing and smoking it as well. but because it's a monopoly, you might predict that that is quite above the market rate and also creates a situation for contraband. so there's a lot of black market tobacco as well. and so you could buy really expensive tobacco, and for that reason, one of the things that commentators would say about tobacco is how egalitarian it was but it is used by rich, poor, urban, rural, men, women. it is gender-neutral. in the case of chocolate, it's much more expensive and most of the 17th century, it's restricted to those who were no ability, rich traders, that kind of professionals and so forth.

but by the early 17th century, or by the early 18th century, even after by the end of the 17th century you see evidence that it's something that is accessible for other element of the population. because it seems sold on street corners. people couldn't afford the cost of a whole pound of chocolate, which would be out of reach for most, good once in a while drink a cup of chocolate so there's evidence. and by the 18th century, the per capita consumption of chocolate in spain is really quite extensive. and so there's also evidence that maybe not concerned that the poorest of the poor, might have access to chocolate. >> what's the earliest and was earning cash it was any health warning with the use of tobacco? >> absolutely.

once it would have present in spain, you know, the take-up rate between 1590 in 1620, starting in the 1610s, visit proliferation of publication on both goods. and when you see people scratching their heads and trying to make sense of what it means, these publications are written both by medical authorities and theological authorities, so sort of both on morally and healthwise. and they are utterly unaware of what we would today call the nature of tobacco and talk with the people, to use the metaphor of slavery often to talk about it and also talk about it, they don't have, they don't know about cancer but they talk about peoples insides being burnt out and blackened, losing their sense of smell.

that actually mainstream view is not as we know today, the sort of, there's no such thing as a sort of okay amount of tobacco. the medical line 10 is about moderation. chocolate is seen, we are kind of catching up to where people in the 17th century, net every day there are new health reports about the beneficial aspects particularly of drinking, you know, or eating dark chocolate. they are very aware of it having, having good effects as well hoping -- helping blood circulation. something i didn't as much as i would like to follow up on is tracking how many other things that people are fun out of date were already perceived by commentators back then. is also an awareness that too much chocolate isn't a good

thing. but in moderation is really beneficial. >> marcy norton, the modern tobacco plant, the modern cacao, cocoa, how similar our today's plans to the ones you were studying? >> so, there's a lot of interest actually in the kind of connoisseurs world of chocolate today. you might be unaware of the story from if you buy really fine chocolate, the province is given, this kind of va kind of e awareness around cacao of the province and so forth. so what you see is that the most, i mean, the short answer is actually quite similar. at least for some of the varieties. the most desired cacao among the europeans was at this variety known as cre yoyo which is still

being consumed today. and then they start hybridizing cacao and makes one that's more robust and disease resistance, can grow in more areas. once europeans start importing cacao in significant quantities, extended cultivation from its traditional regions in mesoamerica to south america. venezuela becomes a really important area. and some of those are righties are the ones, and the much later period it gets spread after where most of our cacao today is produced. so the more robust, the less fine variety is what most probably produced today. but most of those have some relationship to the varieties that were being consumed at the moment, and can with europe and native america. the case of tobacco is quite interesting. europeans first encounter it in

the caribbean and the variety that the encounter -- when they get to north america there's about seven different varieties being used being used among native americans at the time of the europeans are rival in the americas. but the most preferred one is nikki him to back them. they bring that to north america and, in fact, the native americans their go preference for that as well. so the plan for the most part, that native varieties which is more prevalent with the eastern seaboard, so that's what is going mostly today. that gets spread from the caribbean out beyond. >> and we have been talking with marcy norton who is a history professor at george washington university, and the author of this book, "sacred gifts, profane pleasures: a history of

tobacco and chocolate in the atlantic world." thank you, professor. >> thank you. >> is there a nonfiction author or book you would like to see featured on booktv? send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org. or tweet us at twitter.com/booktv. >> i'm terra-cotta and had a special collections for lsu libraries but today we're in the special collections. special collections has a variety of different parts to it. but today i'm going to be talking about an item from the louisiana and lower mississippi valley collection which is kind of our premier collection year in special collections. it documents the history and culture of louisiana and a lower mississippi valley from the colonial era on up to the present day. it includes both publish materials like books, journals, newspapers and the kind of thing

as well as unpublished manuscripts like this point i have here which is one of our jewels, the way in claiborne later book. this book was kept away and claiborne who was appointed by thomas jefferson to receive louisiana from the french from the louisiana purchase. it's amazing that he was only 28 at the time, and he had been governor of the mississippi territory. this is the correspondent that he sent back to thomas jefferson and james madison and other officials to let them know how it was going here in louisiana after the changeover. it wasn't always going so smoothly. so, the thing to think about is that back then, and discovered october 1804 to may 1805, obvious he did have xerox machines, so they want to keep a copy of something he had said, they had to have a clerk copy it for them.

and this is the copies that they get here in louisiana of what they said forward to washington. as well as correspondence that he sent to be put in louisiana. so it was her an interesting time in louisiana because it was quite uncertain, there was a lot of debate and doubt as to whether louisiana was going to stay part of the united states, the french felt like they had a claim to it. the spanish felt like they still have a claim to it. and that made it hard for claiborne to establish a government that he needed to. because people were kind of like waiting to see what was going to happen. they do want to clobber with the americas if it was back to the french or went back to the spanish because maybe it would be held against them. so some of these letters relate to that. he's not getting a lot of cooperation. there also was a lot of