and that made it hard for claiborne to establish a government that he needed to come because people were waiting to see what was going to happen. they didn't want to cooperate with the americans if they went back to the french or the spanish because maybe that will be held against them. so some of these letters relate to that what he's trying to to establish the legislative council and the court and he's not getting a lot of cooperation. there also was a lot of tension between the french who were here, the spanish, the english who were also around, and americans. this letter here, you see somebody, not claiborne's secretary, but in a later hand has written dual here at the top, and this is going to be, they're supposed to be a duel between an englishman and a frenchman, but it didn't happen but they did meet each other in the street later. one of them gained the other one. this led to kind of a taking of

sides in the city that was kind of intensified because of the situation of the doubt about where the country was going, where the caller was going, what was going to happen. so that was just kind of one of the things that he faced. another example was a letter here we're he was against reporting to james madison that there were rumors that they would be returning to spain and not accepting the positions in government like i was talking about earlier. and claiborne suffered quite a lot of personal tragedy while he was here. his wife and daughter died of yellow fever on the same day in 1804, and and his brother-in-law was shot in a duel a few years later defending him and his now deceased wife. so in addition to the official correspondence that is in your,

there's also a few personal letters. this is a letter where he is writing to his in-laws telling them of the death of their son in the duel, march 23, 1805. this is one of my favorites would have in the collection. gonna back and forth between the french and spanish. one day, okay, but how did that really happen? this volume really tells us a lot about that change and what things were like on the ground in louisiana at that time. >> next on book tv, in his book track 10, anthony bradley applies christian teachings to the subject of race, politics, temporary culture, globalization and education. this is about an hour.

>> good morning, thank you for joining us here at the heritage foundation. it's my privilege to welcome you, and, of course, to welcome you as he turns on her heritage.org website. we would ask edward m. house, please check that cell phones of internal. it would be appreciated if we record the event. we, of course, will allow questions from our internet viewers can if you'd like to e-mail a simple addressing those to e-mail a speaker@heritage.org. and we will post a program within 24 hours for your future reference. hosting our discussion energizing our special guest this morning is jennifer marshall. marshall is director domestic policy studies and our richard and helen the vols center for religion and civil society. she oversees research and education, welfare, marriage, the family and religion and civil society. she also manages families

faqs.org, our online catalog at social science research related to family and religious practice. prior to joining us here, she worked on cultural policy issues and empower america, and before that she's a senior director of family studies at the family research council. peugeot in welcoming jennifer marshall. jennifer? [applause] >> thank you, john things all of you for being here for our book event on "black an "black and t essays on race, politics, culture, and international development" by dr. anthony bradley. a few days ago here in washington, d.c., hurricane irene pushback the official dedication of the new memorial to dr. martin luther king, but the silver lining in that hurricane is that the delay of properly extends our focus on dr. king's civil rights legacy and the work of those who, since income have strived to make all

gods children truly free at last. dr. anthony bradley is one of those freedom seekers. as the title of his new book conveys, "black and tired," he is not satisfied with the progress to date. although for reasons you may not often hear about. as the essays in this book show, with titles like devaluing the family, hip-hopsolution with god talk, and green posole, anthony bradley is a scholar with wide-ranging interests. has academic pedigree shows that as well. his undergraduate degree from clemson is in science and this matters that -- make masters are in theology. today he teaches at the king's college, christian liberal arts school in new york city. his first book was "liberating black theology." his latest book, "black and tired," looks at the experience of one race to teach as truths

about all humanity. our views of human nature, he argues, will shape our public policy. so it's worth pausing to consider what it means to be fully human. please join me in welcoming dr. anthony bradley as he helps us do that today. [applause] >> thank you, jennifer marshall, for the invitation. i am honored and delighted to be at heritage foundation for this event. for years, i often say because i'm a nerd commune, growing up i would watch c-span quite a bit and see people at these think tanks, heritage foundation, i would sit there and wonder, i wonder if one day i'll be standing in front of this backdrop.

with the foundation, so i'm honored to be here, so thank you for the invitation. my connection to the foundation goes back quite some years. great honor and posting values a lot of the work of robert rector and my own research and in writing. his work has been particularly helpful to me in terms of my own attempts to think differently about both political and economic liberation for africans americans. the united states is an incredible place. it stands out among other nations in the world, and i recently had an opportunity to be reminded of how great this place is at my family reunion, in alabama.

actually -- escambia county is the county that my family's plantation was. as i stand here before you as a descendent of slaves from the bradley plantation and escambia county alabama. slavery reconstruction, jim crow, the civil rights movement, this is my family's story of struggling and fighting for humanity and freedom, in a context or in a culture that saturated with injustice and dehumanization. now, what's so amazing about this narrative, this story, is that not only does my family know where the plantation is in escambia county, we now own it.

and are members of my family currently living on it as free people who have property rights to it, codified and protected by the rule of law. now, how many countries in the world is it possible to have a group of people who were once slaves on a piece of property, a few generations later actually owned the property? that they were living on. that they were being insulated on. so this makes this place absolutely amazing. yes, of course we notice the progress in our country by having a black family in the oval office. there are not too many countries around the world where you would see sub dominant cultures rise to that level, that status just

a few generations after movements like the civil rights movement. it's amazing to me, and i personally am delighted to think about what is it about this country can what is it about our founding principles that allow someone like myself to be descendent of slaves, to be standing in front of a group of people, having earned a ph.d, standing in front of the heritage foundation backdrop, speaking to you about my second book. to me it's just an amazing narrative about the potential of freedom and liberty and economic empowerment that this country actually offers those who have the opportunity to take advantage of it. so i name my book "black and tired" on purpose.

one, because i am black, if you can tell, and so i want to remain connected to the history of my own family, this story uprising to success in spite of incredibly dramatic and wounding and painful experiences in this country. because the hopes and dreams and aspirations of institutions, values, principles that created the conditions that put me here today are being sabotaged by those with good intentions but often do not think to the consequences of public policy decisions because they have different views on the human person and human dignity, then those who actually structured our government in the first place. and while the effects of this antibody are not immediately

seen, the long-term effects have been uniquely and harshly experienced among the black underclass. and this makes me tired, tired of those who think that putting decisions in the hands of a few people is best in the long run and it has been demonstrated repeatedly in history that concentrating power in the hands of a few people leads to more operation, not less. -- more oppression, not less. in fact, the concentration of power, those making decisions, few making decisions for the mass, this has been much of the black experience in america. so, in fact, i'm black and tired because it seems that there is this movement, this energy to reposition african-americans in such a way that a few people are

making decisions about those masses. it's been exhausting to see a national campaign for the dignity of blackness under the visionary leadership of folks like dr. martin luther king and ralph abernathy and rosa parks, andrew young, and someone be hijacked by the organizational narcissism that we find among politicians in government agencies, operating under the delusion that they have the expertise and capacity to solve all of society's problems. it's been exhausting to see the politics of indie undermine his campaign for dignity which seeks to redefine what people deserve by pitting those of varying degrees of wealth against others, as if life was some sort of race, as if there's some

competition. it's been exhausting to see zero-sum economics, which poisons the imagination of those who do not understand the social implications of wealth creation, enough to believe the myth that the only way to wealth is to exploit others. so i sit in on the same political island with thomas old and walter williams, friendless -- [laughter] with the understanding the key catalyst of the economic liberation african-americans is inseparable from honoring the dignity of blackness by guaranteeing opportunities under the law for blacks to be treated no differently than anyone else. this equality of treatment of sabotaged it in a culture narcissism and entitlement.

it is a narcissism that blames others for one's shortcomings and justifies breaking the law and moral norms out of a sense of entitlement. you all, say that entitled. but how do we get here? we see today the consequences of the fuel converging friends. one is a decrease in american religious life. secondly, the erosion and understanding of human dignity. and third, a focus on the equality of results instead of the equality of process. and this cocktail has been poisonous to the black underclass, because one, the black truth is more and more being ignored as an agent of public virtue, which has been in had been one of the black

church's historic functions. the less religion you have in society, the more and more people turn to government to make sense of their lot into the immediate human action. purge religion from society. human dignity has been perverted in ways that forces all to embrace the visions of a few elites who is essentially plan and impose their will on the rest of us. and the pursuit of equality of economic results for all has great new pathways are justified in justice. today, it's called people doing their fair share. why then does the black underclass continue to struggle so many years after the civil

rights movement? martin luther king dreamt about an america where women and men are evaluated on the basis of their character rather than skin color. the pfeifer equaled dignity, however, was derailed by a request for political clout and bling. the goal and the equality measured by outcomes sought by means of government directed racial inclusion programs overshadowed the more challenging campaign for true solidarity based on widespread recognition of the inherent dignity of all people. beginning in the 1980s, many civil rights leaders began to identify justice on the basis of social cosmetics, including how much stuff blacks did or did not have compared to whites. size of homes, number of college

degrees, income disparities, law school admission rates, loan approvals, and the like. instead of whether or not blacks are treated as equals in our social structures, equal treatment by our legal and social institutions may yield, unexpected results. but it remains a better measurement of justice than creating results we want. one made step in the movement beginning in the mid 1960s on into the 1970s was not recognizing that the most successful minority groups in america were those pursued economic mobility for the marketplace. instead of politics. so when you look at agent immigrants can when you look at the history of jews in america, you see other subatomic cultures

who chose the marketplace of means of social and economic mobility as opposed to politics. now, much of this erosion has to do with our understanding of the role of religion in society. alexis, in his 1835 reflection on the market in america, they're just -- hurts society because it quote, tends to isolate people from one another. to concentrate every man's intention is to excuse me, every man's attention upon himself. and lays open the salt to an inordinate love of material gratification. end of quote. in fact, hopeful says quote the main business of religion is to purify control and restraint that excessive and exclusive

taste for well being which meant acquiring in times of equality. religion makes us other regarding. in fact i furiously said that every black person apprehended for robbing stores in a flash mob should have their court hearing, not in front of a judge but facing the 30-foot statue of martin luther king, jr. at his washington memorial site. each feed should be asked, what do you think dr. king would say to you right now? i was angry when i initially saw the news footage of young blacks robbing convenience stores across america. i was actually brought to tears. but we all need to take a closer look at king's chiseled in stone face from the presence of his own tears. tears like the one shed by native american actor iron eyes

cody in the 1970 public service announcement about pollution. i'm action old enough to remember those. it psa showed cody shedding tear after seeing pollution in america that previously had to get it in the with the tagline, people start pollution, people can stop it. if king are alive today he might proclaim with these flash mobs that people start them and people can stop them. king's dreams of course have been realize that many african-americans who have been able to take full advantage of the opportunities made available through this martyr's quest for justice. will king ever imagine a few decades after his "i have a dream" speech a black family would be in the white house? not as maintenance or kitchen

staff, but as the first family. yet, years after the civil rights struggle in from the black dignity, we have young black people ransacking stores in groups. every time a flash mob loot, it is robbing king of his dream all over america from philadelphia to chicago to here in washington, d.c., young people could be contributing to the common good, but instead are trading off their dignity for the adrenaline rush of stealing from others. we will not tolerate such reprehensible behavior, says district of columbia mayor vincent gray. he goes onto say, some news coverage of this incident has reported residents questioning whether the robbery could have been morally justified. actually, says the mayor, both

morality and law are quite clear. it is wrong to steal from others, and if people do not obey the law they will be apprehended, arrested, and prosecuted. gray highlights a troubling regression of public virtue and civil rights. king's dream was one that harmonized morality and law. however, king's dream will never be realized in america as long as this country continues the mythology that freedom does not require personal integrity and character. proposed of sociological and psychological theories allege that these mobs loot stores because minorities youth franchise and marginalize the mainstream society. and this in fact may be true, there was maybe legitimate feelings.

what king totters, however, is that political and social frustration does not justify breaking the law. perhaps if the assistant prodigies were more familiar with life under slavery and jim crow or cared about the legacy of civil rights heroes like thurgood marshall and rosa parks and john lewis and andy young and others that i mentioned earlier, they could tap into the imagination of an heroic generation. formed by the virtue, by the virtues of religion who pursued to public justice by pursuing public virtue. an ailing american culture is responsible for the spectacle. in society that does not value forming young people and the ways of prudence and justice, courage, self control and the

like, why would we be surprised that convenience stores are being robbed by youthful mobs? in is a site that does not value private property and fosters the spirit of indie and class class warfare through wealth redistribution, why should we be surprised that young people don't value someone else's property? or choose a more technical term, stuff. radical individualism and moral relativism defined the ethics of our era, and criminal flash mobs expose our progressive failures. as we celebrate king's memorial, we must lament the fact that america's abandonment of virtue is destroying the lives of young black people and undermines the legal and economic catalyst that could end our recession for good.

and solidarity with mayor gray, i stand in front of the king statue with a new dream, that a resurgence of virtue would give rise to a generation of moral and law-abiding citizens. it is in this way that blacks will truly experience the dreams of king, and others, who died for justice. and, unfortunately, we have this bifurcation between religious life and public virtue, and those things that make the values and virtues and principles of our country actually work. for example, religious life actually affects education's success. a series of 2010 studies in howard university's journal of negro education, one of america's oldest continuing

academic journals oversell black people reported how church involvement increases education success in inner cities. in the article titled faith in the inner city, the urban black church and student educational outcome, doctor brian baird, an education professor at the state university of new york described the unique contributions black churches play in cultivating successful students in inner cities. he observes that quote, religious socialization reinforced attitudes outlooks, behaviors and practices, particularly through individuals commitments to an adoption of the goals and expectations of the group, end quote. now, these are the things that are conducive to positive educational outcome. in fact, back in 2009, baird

reported in another article that for black inner-city youth who reported religious services often, the black-white achievement gap quote, was eliminated. i'll say that again. the black-white achievement gap was eliminated simply because students in low performing schools, in bad neighborhoods come were actively involved in religious life and in religious community. berti reports that one of the most important advantages of inner-city churches is that they provide a committee for black students are valued both for the academic success and brought them see beings and members of society as promise with talent to contribute, and from who success is expected. churches also a from inner-city youth as trusted numbers of a community that celebrate academic success and the practices that produce it, which

overrides the low expectations communicated at school. additionally, baird highlights the way of black churches because they're equipped to deal with families, are affected in encouraging parental education involvement from the heart as well as providing context root use can have regular contact with other adults for role modeling and mentor and. baird is not alone. also in that same journal from howard university, 4273 black students were studied, and he was found that family and religious life, family and religious social capital are the most important predictors for positive student college success.

so those students in low performing schools in inner cities who are involved in religious life, outside of the family, it's the second greatest predictor of them actually going to college. and, as i said earlier, it eliminates the black-white achievement gap. these officers include -- include students involved parents and active social life have greater opportunities and choices in the future. if we look, for example, at issues like the minimum wage can we recognize of course that emotionally this is a winner. people love to think about the consequences of raising the minimum wage, but i would like to submit that often people don't think about the long-term consequences of raising the minimum wage because we live in a world where people act and

make decisions on the basis of something called incentives. such an increase actually hurts minorities. it actually hurts teenagers, it hurts those that don't have skills in the long run, because minimum wage jobs are usually entry-level positions filled by employees with limited work experience and few job skills. when the government forces employers to pay their workers more than a jobs productivity demands, employers in order to stay in business generally respond by hiring fewer hours of low skilled labor. low skilled workers become too expensive to employ, creating a new army of permanent part-time employees. a force of government wage

workers, the money used to cover the increase is not magically appear. it has to come from somewhere. since americans love the best product or the lowest prices, businesses will not likely pass that cost of the wage increase on to consumers in the form of higher prices. they will instead reduce the costs by laying off workers with the lowest skills, relocating jobs or the entire business to another country, or skirting the law altogether by paying employees under the table. or by hiring illegal immigrants. universe of connected professor kenneth couch estimates a 1 dollar rise in the minimum wage in the current economic environment would further reduce teen unemployment opportunities of at least 140,000 jobs. one of the modern manifestations

of racist ideology is the assumption that everyone else operates on the basis of incentives, except for african-americans. blacks don't think. they simply do what they are told. told where to live. told where to shop. told where they have to send their children to school, and so one. choice, freedom, preference, options, personal decisions and so on, those are for more sophisticated people. with high level thinking skills, those who deserve freedom. often these are called elites. and the rest of us must do what the sake. elites enjoy their own freedoms, but do not really believe in others our cable of exercising the same freedom just yet. so they positioned themselves as

surrogate decision-makers were others who are not nearly as enlightened as they are. if blacks were considered people with equal dignity, a prospective employee would be free to negotiate her own wage for employment, based on her honest assessment of her needs and skills and capacities with a potential employer your country. offers and counter offers would be made without the oversight or intervention of surrogate third parties because there would be the expectation of both the employee and the employer, that they know what's best for themselves. if black parents were considered people of equal dignity, they would not have third party believes who do not have their own children in low performing schools, minority parents where they can and cannot put their

children. the elite with her magical capacity to process complex knowledge, they always seem to know what's best for everyone. it is, in fact, patriarchical condescension. we know better than you people. so what the elites want to do is remove the decision, excuse me, to remove the decision from the hands of lower people into the hands of people who have greater capacity. now, this was the black experience during slavery and during jim crow, but the society committed to removing black men and women from cultural and economic processes so that they could not be able to make their own decisions and experience liberation for themselves. keeping african-americans out of the process, removes their power

and keeps them from experiencing liberty and under the subjection of others. so political and economic empowerment will only, the african-americans trapped in the underclass when we all recognize that when we take the decisions from the masses and put those into the hands of the few, we undermine people's dignity. if you believe that people have dignity and and capacity for reason and virtue, you will put more and more decisions in their hands. if you believe, however, that some people have superior wisdom, more so than others as a class, then you will put more

and more decisions in the hands of the few to rule over everybody else. this is a de facto caste system. as long as america does not respect the dignity of those of the underclass and stop tying their shoes for them, our nation is going to go bankrupt. the institution that built this country are going to the road -- the road and subside. so i long for the day when blacks are respecter did -- respect enough that their virtue drives the economic, and how to what it means to be human, entitled in what it means to make those decisions that allow one to pursue the virtues of religious liberty and political liberty, and economic liberty.

just as parents often remove decisions from their children you are not mature, it is actually unbelievably insulting that we would write public policy that would treat a class of people as if you are perpetual children. this i submit is what the civil rights movement at its core was about, was liberating african-americans from the control of others who sought to make their decisions for them as if they were children. so during the civil rights movement utah men carrying cards that read i am a man. i am not a boy. and we want to live in a country that treats us as full individuals with capacity and virtue and potential, to make those decisions for ourselves

and our family that leads to our own political and economic liberation. so until then, intel that time -- until that time where those experiences are spent by those at the bottom, i will remain black and tired. thank you very much. [applause] >> we will take some questions or comments at this time, if you have any questions. >> my name is dana. i thank jennifer for the invitation but i appreciate what you have to say, and i would imagine on most points i agree with you being nationally conservative, a woman of faith and from the south, i'm from georgia, i certainly understand where you're coming from.

my question though is, where do we come and pardon me for all the white people in the room, but how did -- >> it's just between us. this will be a chocolate conversation. [laughter] >> okay. but in some things i feel like i don't want to give white america of past. >> yes. >> i recognize that as a black american woman, i have a personal responsibly for everything that i do, and you know, my mother raised me in such a way that i have home training. there are things that i will end will not do. but what i don't come as we have these public conversations, i don't want to give white america a pass. we talk about these flash mobs, and those, i believe those are kids who have no drinkers there's no way on earth that my mom would come even as i approach 40, the things i know moms don't do, and i don't think about there's i think that is result of no home training. it's basic and simple, but

they're our kids in the world, little black kids in this world who do feel so angry, they are black, tired and angry. so how do we have this conversation without giving white america past, something that they don't deserve a pass on? >> that's a fantastic question, and this is what i emphasized the rule of law. what's so important about the way in which our society has been structured is, if you look at the constitution to look at the bill of rights, things like that, we have to hold people accountable for the fact that they are not even applying the law equally. and so we have the rule of law, and this is one of the things, this was one of the beauties of the civil rights movement, was calling america to its own standards. and so right, we cannot give people a pass when they are committing acts of injustice against human dignity which are against their own standard, exactly hypocritical, right?

so where there is injustice, where humans are being treated with injustice, where the dignity is being undermined, we want to call that out, right? and some have argued that one of the roles that african america simply in this country is to be the conscience of this country, because when you're the dominant culture you have a lot of blind spots, and it often takes brown and yellow people to raise a flag like soccer raises a yellow card and says wait a minute, you may not realize this, but some of your actions is actually hurt my own opportunities for success. so we ousley need to continue to speak about issues related to white privilege, right? we need to continue to speak but issues related to what i often call anglo norm activity, right? that things that a white are

just normal and everything, everyone else must simply conform. you'll remember, for example, that ridiculous article that came out in psychology today on beauty, fat black women just are not beautiful, right? and that great example of this anglo-norman tv this is what is right is just normal. and everyone else must conform. we have to continue to address that because, because we are all morally for ourselves and have her own blind spot. and we can as a group collectively have a blind spot together. so we have to continue to talk about those things. and i'm more than happy to do that, which means i don't have any friends. [laughter] i get attacked on both sides because i'm equally concerned that in some way, both ignoring

the problem can actually expose some racist ideology. you don't even care enough about people to be concerned about the issue. but on the other side, you have the patriarchal intentions that actually under my dignity by treating people like they are patch, like their children instead of treating them like yourselves. now, this issue of home training is really important. this is where the preachers side comes out. i'm not on the preachers from and now, but i want to, but i won't. so these institutions like family and church have really eroded in the black community, particularly in the hip-hop generation. the hip-hop generation represents the most unchurched group of african-americans. so we have to begin to ask questions about where is the church. princeton university recently asked is the black church is

dead? because that institution that so contribute to moral virtue has been on the decline in terms of actually influencing that generation, because home training was brought. it wasn't just at home. it was home and community. so anybody's church can smack you until you do shut up, pull up your pants and stature, out, right? ..

>> what can, um, the dominant culture or let's just say the poem of faith, christians or people in churches or people of strong moral categories, what can we do to make it easier to start from categories of dignity and freedom and bring it down so it's more competitive to, you know, bling and things that are very attractive to young people who are just trying to sort of express their identity, be part of a group that maybe isn't, doesn't look like something that their friends would have a hard time understanding if, you know, we can tease that out a couple different ways, and i think you know where i'm going. >> yeah, sure. >> and one maybe one higher

level question. that's sort of in the family context. what can a preacher do, or what can a person do that has that vested authority to bring about the question so that the hypocrisy that i agree exists, the reform that's needed back to sort of the standards of america's founding and how we honor freedom and the gift that it is, and what does it mean that all are created equal as given by god? i mean, that's the dna of our constitution. how do you hold those values firmly in a church context and keep over the long term pushing those forward so that these conversations are a lot easier to have? >> yeah. >> because they become flash points, and it's hard to know how to cross the line, so i don't know what help can be coming from outside the family, but inside the family it's tough to even get there. does that make sense? >> yeah. i mean, that's just -- yes, of course. those are two very important questions. you know, we have this tension because, you know, i'm an

academic, i like using big words because it makes people think i'm smart, i get raises because of it and contracts. [laughter] i love it. i love circling the clouds. but there comes a time when you have to talk, you know, real people. sorry, sorry, sorry, academics. you have to talk to people on the street. is and how do you challenge people to think about these categories in ways that make sense? things take virtue, and people are like, what are you talking about? okay? and, listen, i'm not promoting these artists exclusively, i just want to say that as a calf yacht. caveat. but if you listen to lil' wayne's new song about love, and in the con context of that he sort of displays how misdirected love becomes self-sabotage, right? he does it in very crafty ways by telling a story.

lupe fiasco always does a good job story telling people in the consequences of their actions. i think that we often, um, forget about the power of story and narrative, and in my own work what i've seen is that people who have, who are the best at principles arguments are horrible at storytelling. and it's actually the storytelling that draws people into their principles and actually embeds it, right? so the biblical narrative, you know, two-thirds of it is story. so i wonder what would happen if we were, if we were better storytellers about these principles and actually presented them inductively? so that people could actually see the full tapestry of what it means to be a person of dignity to live in virtue.

or to do it like in the book of proverbs, for example, right? people understand what that means. okay, i could also give a lecture on, you know, sloth and the consequences of that in light of a person's human dignity and the implications therein. i could to that, or i could say look at the ant, you sluggard. yeah, if you don't work, you don't eat. i could do that. so we have to do a better job of putting these in stories, because it's actually the story that compels action, ethic, right? so your sister is splicing herself into an ongoing narrative. and, actually, i argue that many people on the left and in the middle and the right -- not as much on the right, in the middle, on the left and the way left -- they actually invite people into a story, right? a utopian story, the way things could possibly be. and a lot of people have these

principles that are associated with our founding, they just don't do a good job of storytelling. so i begin to wonder about ways to sort of tell these stories first in such ways that people say, man, hmm, where can i read more about that? what's the principle behind that? right? coming up with a story first. now, in terms of pastors or sort of religious leaders, um, i mean, you know, it's a multifaceted vocation. i would say this. that on the one hand there still needs to be the type of leadership that prophetically speaks to social injustice and is able to highlight and see the ways in which society isn't live anything solidarity, right? the ways in which their social breakdown that effects all of us. but then, also, we have to recognize that people have stories, have narratives, and so we have to actually know people's stories. this is one of the consequences of the one size fits all

approach to doing social justice work. is that everyone doesn't have the same story, right? everyone isn't in that position they're in for the same reason. and sometimes you have to unpack that story to know how to help them. right? and so those who are closest to the people like pastors have better information at understanding how to actually help people. so what this actually involves, and forgive me for using this ancient principle, is to actually love your neighbor, right? to actually get to know your neighbor, get to know their story. for example, it's often the case that a lot of children in inner cities grow up experiencing a tremendous amount of trauma. family trauma. and that trauma actually affects their brain. it damages their brain. it creates learning disabilities. they have attachment disorder so when they go to school, they can't make it. so that has to be taken into account. you have to actually know people. and so i, you know, i, i'm of

the thinking that pastors need to continue to speak prophetically about the culture, prophetically helping people understand the ways in which virtue is celebrated or not celebrated to sort of situate their own faith within the large community, but also to really help people understand that we have to actually embed ourselves, enter into this ongoing narrative of brokenness to bring hope and peace and to create a new imagination. one of the things i think that plagues people who are stuck in cycles of poverty is hopelessness that the future is going to be different than the past. and i think those of us that, again, with good stories, good principles can actually help people walk into, connect themselves to a different narrative by offering a new vision about what it means to be a human person. and we need to do more of that,

more encouragement, more uplifting. because that actually recognizes that the person has dignity, right? it's not determined. your fate's not determined in terms of your own political and economic life. so what, so how can we actually inspire a new imagination of what it means to be a human person so you can come out of that and go on to this? those stories are incredibly important, and i think in part this is the great tragedy of the current hip-hop generation not being as familiar with the civil rights generation's struggle, the lives of those that lived in jim crow and slavery, right? so i grew up hearing these stories, i just came back from a family reunion, okay? so i heard all these stories again, okay? they get reinforced. right? we don't want to go back. people talk about the good old days. not for us, right? the good old days is the future. i'm not going back to 1950

because i wouldn't be standing here if that was the case, so i think those things are important. good question. in the back. >> i just have a couple questions. you mentioned that church was able to close disparities in iper city concern inner city schools. >> yeah. >> what was the effect on white students? was there a gap between white students and unchurched white students? why do you think there was a breakdown in the social revolution in the '60s and '70s? you mention that's the cause of a lot of problems that we're having now, but you didn't explain why that happened and when it happened. alan bloom makes a similar point in which he says civil rights arguments were law-based and after the death of king, they became relativistic. so which came first and why? >> yeah. to answer your first question,

in the research that's really interesting, for suburban white kids, religious involvement versus nonreligious involvement really didn't matter. there really was little difference between the types of things that reinforce success are actually embedded in the middle class community. so the difference is that within the context of church in low income neighborhoods, it actually speaks against a lot of the self-sabotaging modes ofly anything the community. finish of living in the community. when you live in if a community that socially reinforces those things that lead to success, those things being reinforced in the church aren't nearly -- don't bring nearly as -- sorry, they don't bring nearly the effect of when those things are actually absent. um, now, in terms of which came first, you know, chicken or the

egg, i'm not an expert enough in those legal arguments to know. um, per se. however, i will say this, that it had much to do with this understanding of justice related to outcomes versus process. results versus process. and when human dignity became aligned not with people's free participation to actually fail, their free participation to participate in the process and compete equally, when it became about outcomes, i actually redefine what civil rights was. so you see this today with this language of economic parity, right? so what makes -- we determine equality on the basis of, um,

economic outcomes and material manifestations rather than recognizing equality on the basis of human dignity. and that, that chasm began to explode and expand in the 1960s. and you can see this, for example, with the programs that were initiated by lbj and the so-called war on poverty which i think we're losing. to some degree. those programs initially began as ways, of course, to actually get people off, to wean people off of the great society programs. a lot of people don't know that. and it was intended, of course, to bring the sort of parity, equality within the public square. and, unfortunately, the paradigm, the measure of

political and economic liberation and mobility because of of those programs became reduced to those things that people have verse is us those that do not -- versus those that do not have those things. so affirmative action, rent control, government set aside in terms of contracting for businesses and things like that. so, you know, i personally believe that this process versus result understanding of what it means to be a human person and to live a virtuous life was the beginning of undermining this distinction between, um, to whom does the constitution apply and how. and how do we measure that in terms of long-term outcomes. results. thank you very much. [applause]