documentation and accountability that are starting to emerge. at the end of the 1990s, when we were studying things for the boat, it felt like a wild west. fair is this new system emerging. nobody knew really what to do or how accountability was going to be in place. people using public resources and defining the public good were not actually public officials. they were volunteers. there had to nonprofit organizations coming if they were using public plots of the public didn't necessarily have any oversight. today we have all of these measures, indicators and reporting system better if it onerous for a bout of folks, but it does provide a little bit more oversight.

>> thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> and on booktv, chris derose discusses the bill of rights and the election that enabled a whit mark scotland, economic for the cia and author of more than 25 books. this is just under 40 minutes. hot not >> well, thanks so much for all of you for being here tonight. thanks to art gracious host changed hands. independent bookstores like these treasure and we should support whenever we can. that's why no one is getting out of here until every copy is sold. [laughter] some ibook is, founding rivals:

james madison versus james monroe. for those who showed up to see the lead guitarist, i regret to inform you that was last night. you know, as important as this project has become to my life, e can seriously remember the first time i heard about this easter congressional relationship. but what i do remember is reading about it in a book and he was treated with a typicallf one or two sentences you would see about this congressional fuu race. for that to myself completely to bury the lead. all of a sudden we are in this race between two future president, james madison, james monroe, to be the most important issues of the country, whether we should have a bill of rights, what union we should have.shou and all the sudden you're on thn next page in there in the first congress. i said way to bury the lead. so i decided i would read everything i could about the 1789 election. had written about

before, i decided i was going to tell the story. at the inauguration of george washington, what many people don't know is when he took the oath of office, two of the 13 states were outside the union; north carolina and rhode island did not ratify the constitution because of their concerns that it was missing a bill of rights, a guarantee of fundamental liberties. this was common for the anti-federalists throughout the continent. the common denominator among the anti-federalists -- of which james monroe was one -- was that they opposed the constitution. some of them genuinely believed you could not have a union that covered all these different and diverse states. they believed in independents or perhaps regional confederacies. james monroe represented the majority of anti-federal opinion in that his objection to the constitution was centered around it's missing a bill of rights.

while washington took the oath of office, two states -- new york and virginia -- were agitating for a new constitutional convention. in the words of james madison and george washington, they were terrified of this prospect. they believed that it would be infiltrated by enemies of the new government and that the constitution would be scrapped and done away with and that our union would be fractured, never, ever to come together again. the book then goes into the french and indian world which was a conflict in the new world and europe, perhaps the first true world war we've ever had, between the french, the english and their allies. the english expelled their opponents from continent, but aa consequence what they did was a check that kept their colonists in terror. free from the threat of the french, the american colonists were not so reliant on great britain. great britain also tried to shoulder some of the enormous costs of this onto the colonies.

what followed was a rising cycle of taxation, resistance, followed by oppression where we ended up in a revolution against great britain. both madison and monroe played important roles in the revolution. james monroe was a student at the college of william and mary when hostilities began. as a student, he wasn't excited by latin or grammar, he was out drilling on the college queen at william and mary with his compatriots. the governor of virginia, lord dunmore, the royal appointee, seized the gun powder. nobody bought his excuse which was that he was fearing a slave revolt. that ratcheted up hostilities to the point where james monroe and his compatriots raided the governor's mansion which is still there today. monroe was then sent north to new york to join with george washington's army, and he would serve with washington in many theaters of the war, places like valley forge, germantown, the

philadelphia campaign, and most importantly, the battle of trenton. we all know this famous portrait of george washington crossing the delaware and going over to face the hessians who were not expecting it. monroe led a vanguard of men across the river in that important battle. their job on the morning before the war was to secure the street heading into town so that no one would be able to alert the british and their allies as to what was about to happen. it was christmas, there'd been some revelry, they thought the hostilities had ceased for the season, and they were unprepared for the attacks. in the process, james monroe and his men alerted a doctor, they woke him up, he started cursing at them because he thought they were british. when he realized they were patriots, he told them, i, too, am a patriot, and it seems something is going to happen tomorrow, and i'm going to go with you because i may be able to save some poor soul. well, that poor soul turned out

to be james monroe. he charged the cannons, was struck down by a bullet and would have bled out right there in the street before trenton had it not been for the doctor. this is one of two incidents in the book where james monroe narrowly escapes death. one of the things i focused on was just how precarious everything that happened really was and how seemingly small and minor and unrelated events conspire to make great events happen on the stage of history. during the revolutionary war, james madison served in the u.s. congress. when he arrived in congress, he found an absolutely ruinous state of affairs. i know it's nothing like you could imagine today, but -- [laughter] the congress had already taken an enormous, crippling national debt. when congress had exhausted its revenue and sources of credit, they simply started printing money and giving it out to people. [laughter] thank goodness our leaders today are too wise to do this. [laughter] i think it's really telling that

madison served on something called the board of admiralty. this is the committee that ran the naval affairs of the united states during the war. one of the first things they do is to deny a three-month-old request for a sea captain for bread and flour. it was not that this request was unreasonable per se, it was simply that they had no bread or flour or means to plo cure it to give him. they did sell him a note, however, telling him to keep up the good work. [laughter] an 18-gun boat named the saratoga was sitting in the dock for a want of simple rigging. the triumph l, ready to go to sea and fight the british, was waiting on a few more cannons and a little bit more food before it could be deployed. perhaps worth -- worst of all, they had to deal with the issue of several common criminals breaking into a warehouse. perhaps they were inspired by george washington's daring christmas raid because one christmas night they broke in,

they stole the -- [inaudible] congress had already directed them to distribute this canvas to the places where it was needed, and the letters to the board of admiralty are actually pretty humorous if it wasn't so serious. the men in charge of the warehouse said we've killed tree of the men responsible, we think we know where to find the fourth. congress wrote back saying, well, that's nice, but we just want our canvas back. [laughter] so madison and monroe begin a lifelong correspondence that'll stretch over five decades. and by this point madison was back in the virginia legislature, and monroe had gone to congress and dealt with many of the same frustrations that madison had. talking about the articles of confederation. in 1777 the continental congress put together a plan to try to unify the states. before that the continental congress basically existed to air grievances against great britain. now they had to conduct a war against the most powerful country in the world, so in 1777

they sent the articles of confederation to the states. the letter that accompanied it almost sounds like an apology and with good reason. it says, this was the best that could be adapted to the circumstances of all. not very promising. [laughter] under the articles of confederation, the hapless league of friendship was unable to raise revenue on its own, unable to raise troops on its own. it was unable to conduct any sort of rational trade policy. so even after the war, the european powers would punish our merchants, our producers, hit our producers with heavy taxes and tariffs. because the national government had no capacity to create a revenue, a trade policy, they would be able to play the 13 states against each other. if 12 states were to respond in kind to great britain, at least one state would look around and say, you know what? we're going to lower our tariff and have all these british goods come in through our state. so it was impossible for the congress to do anything. it was totally unequal to the

task. the idea of some sort of north american union actually started in 1754 with something called the albany congress. that was benjamin franklin's idea, and it was not created with the idea of independence in mind, it was created in response to the fears generated by the french and indian war. and it was to be a body that could coordinate the response to the impending war. this was attended by 17 delegates from seven colonies and one lobbyist. and the meeting broke up inconclusively, but that general framework was later adopted into our articles of confederation. the national goth was so weak at -- government was so weak at one point, it was completely laid low by the greedy sheriff of chester county, pennsylvania. george washington issued a passport to the british to bring in supplies to feed and clothe their prisoners of war. so they're bringing the wagons in to go to the prisoner of war camps, and the sheriff of

chester county stops them and says, you know what? under the pretext of saying that they brought in too much and planned to sell it on the black market, he seized all of their merchandise, and congress was powerless to stand up to the greedy sheriff of chester county. one county sheriff standing up to the national government of the united states. totally, totally unequipped to govern a country like ours. at one point congress has to deal with a mutiny. with no revenue to pay soldiers, the soldiers lose their patience, and as the war comes to a conclusion, they're not feeling any better about their chances of getting paid. once the hostilities are done, they weren't very optimistic about what might happen. so they went to philadelphia, a group of soldiers went to philadelphia, and they're pointing guns in the windows of congress, and they're menacing members of congress. and congress is inside trying the to figure out what to do. all they can do is appeal to the governor of pennsylvania who tells them, hey, it's not my problem. [laughter] just one of the reasons philadelphia lost the capitol and would only get it back for a

temporary period under the new government. so john dickenson, the governor, wasn't willing to help them out. so what congress decided to do was they would flee like a group of common debtors to princeton, new jersey, and they reconvened in james madison's old dorm at princeton. [laughter] one of the most important issues that both madison and monroe had to deal with during their time both in the virginia legislature and in congress was the question of the mississippi. the spanish were of a belief because they controlled new orleans and the port of new orleans that they were entitled to the mississippi river. james madison pointed out that under the international law that existed at the time that a free and peaceful people could move across international boundaries without impunity, so why should the american people who were not at war with spain be more restricted than in any other place? and imagine what losing the mississippi would have done to the united states and westward expansion and ports of entry that we have, the growth of the american west. it's unimaginable that had we

given it to spain, you know, we probably never would have gotten it back. but there was a northern confederacy led by john jay who was the minister to spain and at different times during this debate the foreign affairs minister for the congress under the articles of confederation. and john jay thought as follows. he thought -- he was a northerner, the mississippi river was a far off place. who had ever heard of it? who needs this far off river? we're going to risk a war we can't win for a river that we can't use. and so he was firmly of a mind that he was going to try to give this river away to the spanish. and really this gets at the heart of the problem, that the continental congress and the congress under the articles of confederation had no capacity to bring the military might of the nation. and if it had, the spanish would have never dared to provoke us into a war. but it's the quick thinking of madison and monroe and founding rivals that prevents the mississippi from being lost to

the united states forever. well, we all know about the problems of congress under the articles of confederation. madison and monroe worked very, very hard to try to alter them. they tried to do two measures principally. number one, to pass an end post so that trade that comes into the united states could be taxed and the national government would have a steady source of revenue and be able to stand on its feet and pay its war debts, particularly its war debts for the brave soldiers who won our resolution. it never passed the requisite 13 states. it had to be man unanimous. the second thing they wanted to do was regulate trade policy. we've already talked a little bit about that. because the european powers were belligerent towards united states merchants and producers, and they wanted congress to be able to respond in kind. another serious issue, there are 13 states, at least 13 different forms of currency used, at least 13 different standards for weights and measures, currency

was subject to dramatic fluctuation. and the courts, there was no national judiciary. so if you were a new yorker trying to buy something in virginia, you didn't know what you were buying, and you could be sure you would get hometowned if deal went south and you had to file a lawsuit. so they were trying to unleash this economic engine to create not only a military union, but also an economic one that could unleash the prosperity of the american people and, indeed, something that has allowed us to be the most prosperous country in the world. so what they tried to do was create a convention. and it's the virginia legislature that is the first to call for some sort of national convention of the states to look at amending the articles of confederation. james madison gives this off to john tyler, the father of the future president, to pass. james madison is a member of congress, former member of congress, was suspected of having gone federal. and john tyler who'd never served in congress had more credibility to call for this new

national convention. so that's what happened. unfortunately, when the delegates met in annapolis, maryland, the states didn't send the best people that they had. some states didn't send anybody. nobody sent their full delegation. and so they meet for a few days in mann's tavern and decide, you know, the best we can do is to write up a long letter of all the problems we see with the confederation, distribute it to the states and agree to meet in philadelphia may next. well, that gathering, we all know, is the constitutional convention. james madison goes there as a delegate, james monroe does not. madison earns his soak ri cay as the father of the constitution. once again, he uses someone else to bro deuce his policies which is something he always did throughout his career if he thought it was more likely to succeed coming from somebody else other than him. imagine leaders like that today who don't don't care about the credit, but they care about getting results for america. that was james madison.

so he had edmund randolph introduce what was called the virginia plan, and it is the basic framework for our government today. the executive and the two branches of the legislature and the judiciary and all of the characteristics and all of the powers that we associate with our national government today. there are some serious fights in the constitutional convention, both sides nearly walk out at different points. the biggest issue that they have to con tend with is actually one of representation. in the congress of the confederation, every state had one vote. the bigger states got to send a bigger delegation, but all that delegation could do was cast one vote at the end of the day. virginia has over 700,000 people, and delaware hasless than 50. and the virginians, not surprisingly, didn't understand why someone in delaware had a right to so much more representation. so this is a big problem. but the southern states -- not the southern states, but the smaller states will not yield on this point. so it's a question of yielding to them in the spirit of

accommodation or scrapping the whole enterprise and going back. fortunately, they did agree the house of representatives would be based on population, and the senate would be based on equal representation among the states. from philadelphia comes the constitution, and i think in history books we tend to gloss over this period in history. and it goes straight from the constitutional convention in philadelphia to george washington taking the oath on the balcony of federal hall. but what really transpires in between is a nearly two-year knock down, drag out fight all across the continent over to ratify the constitution. each state elects a constitution to sit in -- a constitutional convention to sit in judgment of the constitution of philadelphia. i focus two chapters of this book on the virginia ratification convention as the largest, most culturally important, most commercially important state in the country. it is critical that virginia ratifies the constitution.

the opponents of the constitution try a plan, but it completely backfired on them. they decide they're going to hold the debate in june. what they figured, some states would approve it, some states wouldn't, and there would be virginia to broker some kind of compromise. that was what they thought was going to happen. the problem was they created a third party in the virginia constitutional convention. not anti-federalist, not federalist, but people who were so concerned ab preserving the union that they were able to vote for ratification. none was more important than edmund randolph. randolph was one of only several dell bait gates in philadelphia to refuse to sign the constitution. and there's a lot of suspension around what he's going to say when he first stands up in richmond in the virginia ratification convention and what side he's going to come down on. and he says, you know, these objections to the constitution haven't changed. my principles, my positions on this haven't changed. i have my doubts, but at this

point seven states have ratified the constitution -- eight states had ratified the constitution, excuse me, and i'm not going to be the ones to separate us from our sister states. and so at the end of the day there's a lot of debate, fascinating, some of the leading names in american history, patrick henry along with james monroe who decides that despite his frustrations with the current government, this constitution was too potentially dangerous. it was missing the bill of rights, he couldn't get behind it. he could get behind something that increased the powers of congress, specifically over revenue and trade, but there had to be a bill of rights, and so he reluctantly comes out, but comes out full force against the constitution. george mason's also in the constitutional convention, richard henry lee, some of the most important people in american history are all in this room in richmond. at the end of the day, the anti-federalists try a gambit. they say why don't we stop what we're doing here, recommend some amendments to the other states and pick it up later? this would have had the effect

of completely ending the process. the momentum would have stopped there. the vote in new york was going to be so close that alexander hamilton kept writing madison saying all is lost if you don't pass this constitution in virginia. no pressure. [laughter] but everything is lost. and, in fact, new york only ratifies the constitution a month after virginia and only then by three votes. and only because the federalists agree to this unanimous declaration that they're going to call for a new constitutional convention unless and until there's a bill of rights that comes out of the first congress. so what the anti-federalists do is let's set this aside. that measure fail bed by 88- failed by 88-80 votes. james madison didn't even know if he was going to participate in the ratification convention. indeed, if anti-federalists had simply scheduled it earlier, madison probably wouldn't have been able to make it.

in fact, he gives his first speech in a long career in public service, gives his first speech in support of his candidacy to be a part of this ratification convention, and aren't we glad that he decided to participate? because the constitution gets out of their alive by eight votes. all seems inevitable to us today, but that's how close it was. well, following the virginia ratification convention is a legislative session that is dominated by patrick henry and his anti-federalist allies. it's a chapter in my book called "the terrible session," and if you were a federalist, that's exactly how you would have seen it. first of all, virginia calls for a new constitutional convention. second, patrick henry who could be very petty and personal in his politics took a supporter of james madison's, came up with a pretense for him not to be eligible to be a legislator, and then it was referred to the committee on privileges and elections. the committee said of course he's eligible to be a legislator. this doesn't make any sense. it was reported to the floor

that he was eligible. patrick henry offered an amendment said was not eligible and invade against the constitution for a long, windy, ponderous speech. i don't know what that has to do with edward carrington's eligibility, but patrick henry thought an awful lot. now, carrington wins a special election three days later, but this is what you were dealing with if you were an anti-federalist -- if you were a federalist, excuse me, and one of the problems and the reason they were so outmatched is because the leading federalists of virginia, people like john marshall and james madison weren't part of the legislation church, but patrick henry who demanded his -- commanded his majority with absolute obedience was able to get these measures through the legislature. at the end of the session, james madison went and sang, and his

colleagues thought it was because of having to deal with the anti-federalist backlash. enough to drive you crazy. two other very important things happened in this session. first of all, this is back when under our original constitution the state legislators elected senators. so james madison is offered up by the federalists as a senator. and patrick henry talks about rev you lets of -- rivulets of blood in the land, there's going to be this great turmoil if we elect a federalist to congress, and he'll never, ever support your rights. and james madison loses to two anti-federalists by a narrow majority. you know, the issue of redistricting is on a lot of people's mind right now perhaps, no more so than here in arizona. the virginia legislature at this time perpetrated the first act of gerrymandering in american history, and as one other author point out, it is patrick henry's luck that they didn't think to

call it henrymandering. [laughter] he did have the results of the virginia ratification convention. two delegates were selected from every county. because of the late day of the virginia convention, delegates were more or less on the record with their positions on the constitution. so he created a district for madison that was probably three to one anti-federalist to federalist. not a great start. a lot of madison's supporters asked him if he would consider run anything another district. the only district that he probably could have lost in virginia was the one that was created by his enemies to defeat him. and they even passed something called the residency law which said, oh, by the way, you have to live in your congressional district for a year before you can run. targeted at one man. the federalists and anti-federalists on a party line vote had a fight over whether to strike the residency law, and the federalists were outgunned, and they lost.

so madison decides, you know, i don't want my election being called into question in the first congress. i don't want this to become an issue in a different district. remember, at that time the virginia legislature was one of the oldest institutions on the continent. it had a lot more credibility than this new constitution. the constitution says you only have to live in your state if you want to run for congress. in fact, there's a number of house of representatives members right now who don't actually live in their district. madison decides, no, he's going to stand and fight for his corner, and he's going to fight in the district that he lives in and the district he's always lived in. so the anti-federalists start shopping around for a candidate to take on james madison. and reluctantly, they're able to convince his friend, james monroe, to carry the anti-federalist banner. james monroe was a decorated combat veteran, former member of congress, member of the virginia legislature, extremely experienced and probably would have stood out head and shoulders above any opponent other than his friend madison

who also had a long tenure in office. when monroe gets into the race, though, however reluctantly, he gets into it full force. while monroe was in congress, he lost an election in virginia for the legislature by a mere four votes which his campaign manager kept writing him and telling him, come back and campaign in person. he ended up losing by four votes. if you work for politicians long enough, you realize their losses are seared on to them, and monroe remembered what it was like to lose that race. so he was busy writing letters to important people in the district. then, as now, the candidates relied on local supporters in the various counties of the district to give them advice about the lay of the land, important people to reach out to, when to come to the court day and meet with people. and that's what they did. james madison would -- or james monroe would write these letters, to governor to one of the supporters in the county,

and the supporter would distribute them. newspapers were a critical source of information at the time. some of them, we'll call these essays, the historical antishe dent to the anonymous blog commenter. they were anonymous essays, they were written in the newspapers. one of the enduring myths which i hope to dispel in "founding rivals" is you hear it every election, this is the messiest campaign ever. [laughter] so i challenge you, i challenge you to read about the election of james madison and james monroe which featured false and even negative communication. the anti-federalists, and i should be very clear, james monroe had no part in this. but his supporters said james madison has said that not a word of the constitution can be spared, and he will not get you your amendments. well, james madison realized, look, he represented the federalist opinion. he thought a bill of rights was dangerous. he said we have a government of enumerated powers. if we didn't give the government, for instance, the right to regulate speech, why

would we need a free speech amendment to prevent the government from doing that? you might list some rights and forget others and thereby omit those rights to people, and it was premature. we just -- this is a vessel just launched, this new government. let's take it for a test drive, see what happens. see whether or not we really need these amendments. but james madison realized as a result of his contest with anti-federalists in the virginia ratification convention and in the election in the fifth congressional district that there was a significant sentiment in the country, and these people would never, ever be satisfied until a bill of rights was passed and adopted. so in order to gain the confidence of his countrymen in this new constitutional government which he saw as the last best chance for creating some sort of union that could work for the state, he acquiesces in the spirit of accommodation. he first announces his support for a bill of rights as part of a campaign promise to a man by the name of george eve. george eve is the most prominent

baptist minister in the fifth congressional district. the baptists and other religious minorities were a very important political group. they were created, like many political groups since time immemorial because the government persecuted them. baptists were arrested in private residences for prayer as we were declaring all men are created equal, people were being arrested in church, being arrested for preaching the gospel. and these folks were extremely concerned about this new national government. in fact, there was a unanimous resolution among the baptists in the fifth congressional district, unanimous resolution that says that the constitution does not sufficiently protect our religious liberties. they actually deadlocked on a resolution as to whether the yoke of slavery should be made lighter. they knew that -- they believed it didn't. madison writes this letter, you can imagine this is rural virginia, this is 1789, and

there's one baptist minister that goes to many different churches. so eve had quite a few congregations. and he was in tune with madison's true sentiments on religious freedom. it was madison who passed the virginia statute of religious freedom. so madison had always been a friend to the free exercise of religion, and they knew that. madison wrote this letter and said if i am elected, i will support a bill of rights, and among that bill of rights will be a free -- freedom of religion. when they were gathering deciding who to endorse, eve was able to pull out his letters and rebut the anti-federalist liars who were distorting his opinion for the benefit of all, and eve did great damage to their cause in the words of one observe every. so james madison and james monroe, i've talked about some of the things that were similar in this election to elections today, one of the things we don't see enough of is james madison and james monroe

maintained an extremely high level of civility toward one another in the course of the campaign. they traveled together, they stayed in the same hotel room, they engaged in long, very heated debates. one of those debates in a church that's still there in culpepper, virginia, which is the oldest lutheran church in the united states. they stood out there for hours in the freezing cold, in fact, madison got frostbite on his way back. he used to point to it as his only war injury he'd ever had and regale youngsters with stories about that campaign. so james madison and james monroe would both report to their mutual friend, thomas jefferson, after the election that their friendship never abated, that they remained friends throughout. even while they disagreed passionately, they were civil to one another. even if sometimes their most zealous supporters weren't civil to each other, they were always civil to one another, and that's reflected in their numerous debates and public appearances they had throughout the fifth congressional district. so james madison by co-opting

the issue that james monroe has really takes the win out of his sails, and he wins the election. one of james madison's biggest supporters wrote him and told him if this had happened a fortnight sooner, i think you would have lost. so what are the consequences of this election? besides being interesting for featuring two future presidents for the first and last time in american history, what's important? well, we have already talked about the federalist opposition to bill of rights. in the first congress the federalists win lopsided majorities. virginia and new york are agitating for a new convention. the anti-federalists are coordinating up and down the continent getting ready to sweep the fall's legislative elections in order to cause their state to call for a convention. only james madison seemed to appreciate the threat posed by the anti-federal movement, and so what he did right in the beginning of congress he notices

there are going to be a bill of rights considered this election, and i plan to introduce them, and we are going to consider them. so in a nixon goes to china moment where only that strong anti-communist could have gone to that country and opened it up to the west, james madison is able to bring the federal majority over to his side and pass the bill of rights. and it was remarked among madison's many supporters in virginia that the antis have a new hero, and it was an unlikely hero, james madison. and it was because of the bill of 1789 that we are all here today in the freest, most prosperous, greatest country in the history of the world. and this was set against a very unpromising context. try to imagine, if you will, a crippling national debt, a government that was intensely paralyzed by partisanship, a government that seemed wholly inadequate, leaders that seemed inadequate to the exigencies of the day. i know, you can't imagine it, right? [laughter] it's impossible to think about.

in one of my favorite quotes, mark twain history says it doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. [laughter] madison and monroe found themselves trying to make this work against the most unfavorable context that i think maybe any body of decision makers has ever faced. but they rose to the occasion. every generation in american history has faced challenges. the first generation did, and every subsequent generation did whether that be pestilence or war or economic calamity or all three, the trifecta. but each generation rose to the occasion and passed on to the next generation in our great american tradition, a country that was better, stronger, freer and more prosperous than the one before. we're in trouble right now as a country, but "founding rivals "is an optimistic note from history, how a previous generation rose to face many of the same challenges we face today and how we as a nation can go forward. we have to get out of this mess. we have to work together to do it.

the final line of the book which i know is not something you get to hear very often at these book readings, is "remember." remember how things looked in the past when things looked unor difficult, america has always risen to the occasion, and i hope you'll have some optimism about the way we're going as well. i'd be happy to take questions. [applause] >> are there any questions from anybody? danny. >> besides, um, the creation of the bill of rights, what's another consequence of the 1789 elections? >> well, there are two very important additional consequences in addition to the bill of rights being passed. as if that wasn't enough, the bill of rights had cemented our union, there were two other significant events that happened only because madison was there instead of monroe. if madison had not been there, the country may still have

faltered on the tarmac. the first of these is the question -- it's called the decision of 1789. when they, when they introduced cabinet legislation to create the president's cabinet positions, there's a phrase in there that says there'll be a secretary to be removed by the president, and james madison didn't think there was anything controversial there, but he touched off the greatest constitutional debate of the first congress. people say, well, the constitution's silent on this, so congress could grant this removal power, but they don't have to. other people thought, well, i think you need to use the impeachment method. that's the only method we have in there. so some thought you could grant it to congress, some thought you could only use impeachment, and others believed that you would remove these people the same way you appointed them, with the advice and concurrence of the senate. any one of these scenarios would have been a dramatic blow to the separation of powers that we've created, you know, and these are so critical to our government.

madison called the constitution a sublime commentary on human nature. he knew that the tendency of people in power was to coalesce and get more power. and so we created three branches of government, executive, legislative and judiciary, the greatest of these, the legislative, is broken up into two houses, and they're all pitted against each other with checks and balances. and it's important to maintain that system to avoid tyranny. and so madison engages in a long debate on the floor of the house. it's very uncertain as to what's going to happen. the first salvo fired by the other side was an amendment to strike the language saying to be removable by the president. later on madison will win this debate by getting behind that very same amendment, but not for the same reason that its offererrers put it forward. he struck that language to be removable by the president, and then he added language that said there shall be a clerk to the department which shall serve as secretary.

in the event that the secretary is removed by the president or for any other reason. [laughter] so it's such an offhand reference that no one would ever mistake it for a grant of power for congress, yet it makes it clear that the president can remove his subordinates at will, and it would be unimaginable to think of a president who couldn't remove a cabinet official who wasn't implementing the agenda that they were elected to work on. the second important consequence in addition to the bill of rights is the location, the debate over the nation's capitol in washington, d.c. and the assumption of the national debt. for those of you watching in washington, d.c., you are there because of this debate and because james madison won this election by 336 votes over james monroe. madison emerged as the focal point of the opposition in the first congress to secretary of the treasury alexander hamilton's plan for the states, for the federal government to assume the debt of the states. see, hamilton realized this would get every state off to a

good footing, it would restore the public credit of the states, it would cement the union and tie the union together. well, the southern states had more or less paid off their bills. the northern states more or less had not. the southern states wanted to know why they should pay twice for their war debts when they had been frugal. the northern states cite if you won't come to our aid, what's the point of being in a union with you at all? people were talking about secession. a bout of influenza hit washington, d.c., nearly killed george washington. it's a very precarious time for the country. thomas jefferson runs into alexander hamilton who was usually very polished, very well dressed, clean shaven looking none of those things in front of his house. jefferson says, what's wrong? i'm going nuts, worried the public sector's going to fail. so thomas jefferson brokered a deal over wine and food at his

house between james madison and alexander hamilton. madison wasn't going to vote for the plan, but he would not be too strenuous in his opposition. there's some speculation that he and jefferson found the votes needed to put hamilton over the top. hamilton would turn around and use his influence to select the potomac site for the nation's capital. this is referred to as the first of three great compromises, and this kept the country together. what would have been different if monroe had been there instead of madison? well, number one, monroe's biggest objection to the constitution was the power of the executive. he wasn't about to vote for a new tyrant under a different name. he was very concerned about the power of the presidency. he would not have carried the banner madison had. indeed, he probably would have voted differencely. on the executive question, it's my belief that the people who believed the president didn't have the power to remove his

subordinates, i think they would have carried it today, and i think the country would have crashed on the tarmac. what can you do with a president who's beholden to every employee in the executive branch? monroe also was opposed like everyone from the south, but he couldn't have emerged the way madison did. madison was the leader of the federalist party in congress. it's important to note the difference between then and now. now the speaker of the house is the leader of his party, he's the most powerful member, but in the first congress the speaker of the house was largely confined to a ceremonial role, kind of like the british house of commons. they weren't the leader of their party. james madison's the leader of the federalist party in the first congress. and so with the leader opposing the plan of hamilton, the federalist, he was able to effectively block this legislation in a way james monroe would not have been able to. so i think these three critical things -- the bill of rights, the first great compromise and the executive question -- were all decided differently because

it's 336 votes in 1789 in the fifth congressional district of virginia. >> where did you do your research, which libraries, museums? give some examples. >> yeah. i spent a lot of time in what was called the madison reading room. named after james madison. so it was fun to be able to research james madison in a room named after him. they let me check out books and take home books that i had absolutely no business -- [laughter] being able to check out and take home. my primary source for "founding rivals" is the letters of the founding fathers themselves. i tried to let them speak for themself whenever possible. and madison was very meticulous. he cataloged every letter he ever wrote or received. james monroe, not as much, but also there was a lot i could use to get a sense of who he was and how he interacted with his

compatriots. so arizona state university was an excellent resource, the library of congress was a great resource. i tried to go to the lutheran church just to see what it would have been like when madison and monroe sat out there and debated the constitution in the snow for hours. so i got to spend a lot of time in virginia because i was working on an election there. and it was wonderful to be able to retrace the same steps and even work an election in what used to be the fifth congressional district in virginia, work to support candidates there in the fosteps madiso ..if. >> why do you think that this race was so overlooked by other historians? >> that's such a great question, and i get it a lot. it immediately jumped out to me as being historically significant. so if i have to make excuses for everyone -- [laughter] fall first of all, thank you for not appreciating the significance of this race or writing about things you think were more important.

i think because the bookended by such consequential events on east side of it. washington's taking the oath of office and all is well. and one of the things i try to point out in this book is that nothing's inevitable. the things you do have consequences, the actions you take in public life. the thing that is definitely within your power is to never give up. you know, madison and monroe despaired. they despaired of ever getting a government that was equal to these unionist states. after annapolis where barely anybody shows up, in philadelphia where it looks like both sides are going to walk out, when it looks like the ratification convention might not approve the constitution. it was desperate, and it was close, but they didn't give up. and so that is such an important thing that we don't consider. the steady march of history from the colonial area to independence where we knew off the bonds of the most powerful empire the world had ever seen and established unlike other revolutions, we established an orderly government.

not a monarchy, not tyranny, not anarchy, but an orderly, free republican goth, and that just was without precedent in the history of human activity. and so this is important, and it is badly overlooked by history. you know, when i first started just to read about this and not write about it, i went to the comprehensive three-volume life of madison written by reeves who was a contemporary of madison, a little bit younger than him. i thought surely this would be a great firsthand account of the election of 1789. four pages over three volumes for the most important congressional election in history. we think of congressional elections as part of trends, reactions to financial panics, to wars, rebukes to unpopular presidents. so we think of them as trends with the exception between the race of abraham lincoln and steven douglas, that is one race that we do know about, we do talk about. the places where they debated are popular tourist attractions in illinois, but if you go somewhere -- anyone here been to

virginia? you can't go anywhere without seeing one of those gray and black signs to denote someone famous who lived there, some famous battle that happened there. my favorite is the church of the blind preacher, i think it's great that they are -- take their history so seriously. but you will never find anything to denote one of the spots where madison and monroe debated each other, and hopefully some day we can change that. >> two questions. are you able, are we able to tease out any, what parts of the ticket, of the fifth congressional district of virginia, were supported one or the other candidate? were there certain segments of society that one was more or less popular with? and then secondarily, what was any role at all of thomas jefferson and george washington, two big virginians of the age? >> those are great questions. to the first, that's a great question, why did some people fall on the federalist side of things, why some people on the anti-federalist side of things. well, to generalize, federalists

were people engaged in the mercantile trade, people who could see the benefit of having the same currency when i go two miles north into maryland. i can see the benefit of having a fair judicial system when a deal goes sour in delaware. i can see the benefit of having a government with national trade policies so the british stop taxing by goods and i can open up a worldwide market. some of those folks were, you know, they said i don't know about this new government. i think it's going to invade my liberties, and i don't want see any consequence to the confederacy staying the way it is. so to generalize, that is sort of neatly why they fall in one place or another. and sometimes it isn't that neat, it's just the conclusions people drew. they were in totally unchartered territory, it was a government unlike the world had ever seen, and james madison and james monroe who were both descended from 17th century, early inhas been about thes of the --

inhabitants, both very well educated, monroe at william and mary and madison at princeton, and they came to different conclusions. even though their service actually mirrored each other. they served on the council of state which there was a plural executive, the the colonists, once they became free americans werer the terrified of the executives. he could exercise his executive power jointly. madison and monroe both served with the governor of virginia. they came to two totally different conclusions about this, and that was true for a lot of their countrymen as well. and then the second question -- >> [inaudible] >> thomas jefferson's in paris as a minister to france during this time. he does receive the most complete postelection analysis from both madison and monroe. thomas jefferson was their dear, mutual friend. thomas jefferson once referred

to madison and monroe as the twin pillars of my happiness. in fact, thomas jefferson spends some time in trying to convince madison to move next to him. i've already got monroe. we could just hang out and retire from private life and be really happy. reading books, talking about books, talking about the big ideas of the day. so he called them the twin pillars of his happiness, so he was please today get messages from both of them saying our friendship was never set aside no matter how passionate the debate went. i felt bad about having to run against my friend. this is what happened, but we're still friends. so jefferson is over in france, but george washington very much wanted madison to win this race. and one of the first letters of congratulations that madison receives is from george washington. it was nothing that washington had against monroe. washington was responsible for promoting monroe through the ranks in the continental army. and who that lived with someone else during the winter at valley forge could ever help but see that person as a dear friend and

a kinsman? i think i quote a different book where it talks about valley forge, a name associated with misery since the 18th century. and, indeed, it was. and they lived through some of the worst fighting of the war together. but it was because washington relied on madison, his advice, his counsel. madison is really the principle adviser to washington in at least the first year of his presidency. i think to some degree that role shifts to alexander hamilton. but in the beginning it's james madison, and one of the first letters of congratulations he gets, congratulations on a majority of a respectable number of your peers, now help me write my inaugural address. he's the first author of washington's first inaugural address. congress asks madison to draft the response to washington, and madison writes this response, and he's like, wow, that was such a good speech, i don't even know how to respond.

[laughter] and then washington says, well, i have to send a reply to congress, will you help me write it? and, of course, madison was happy to oblige him. and i offer that in "founding rivals" because it is a test to the high standing that james madison pnac there was an enormous amount of debate over what a bill of rights would look like.

in fact many of the state ratification conventions, virginia included, that recommendations for congress along with the recommendations we think we should pass these amendments in the first session there were literally hundreds of different ideas but madison focused on a few things. number when he wasn't going to do anything structural. some of the amendments focused on weakening the executives, stripping away important powers from congress like to regulate trade or the revenue. we were not going to go to we we anything structural we were going to focus on the trying to fundamental liberty.e wind o ofe madison is trying to take theanl sales of the federal movement so he's trying to calculate exactle what measures are going to do that.righ first you to look to the rightts to free englishmen the longeat i tradition, the great traditione and history that people have.as the freedom that people have as the englishmen. one of the great things about ha living under the tired and weeor build in subjecti, so you pretta good idea if you had a mad tyrant governing over you, what are all the things they would try to do if they could get away with it? so, for instance, when they were trying to tax the colonists in

the aftermath of the french and indian war, one of the things, you know, smuggling went through the roof, and to catch these smugglers, they decided we're going to be able to send soldiers into your house without warning, notice, sanction from the judiciary. they're going to be able to go into your house and search to their heart's content. so people knew what they needed to protect against in the event there was a mad tyrant again. that example is fresh in your mind, so madison selects from these fundamental liberties that had a long tradition in the united states and be some of the most grievous offenses that great britain had inflicted on its colonists, and that's more or less how he introduces it. the bill of rights was originally 12 amendments, and 11 of them passed, and one of them passed in the 1990s. so you've got the first ten, you've got the bill of rights. in the 1990s, finally enough states ratified an amendment that says the following: if congress wants to increase its pay, that's fine, but the pay

increase won't go into effect until there's been an election for the house of representatives in between so that people couldn't just vote themselves a lavish salary and then retire. you're not going to touch a nickel until the voters have had their say at least on the entire house of representatives and a third of the senate. what happened was there was a student, i believe, in the 1970s at the university of texas who wrote a paper about this, and he says this is still out there, states could pass this. and his teacher gave him a failing grade. [laughter] this is the worst idea ever -- [laughter] you know, never underestimate the power of spike. he went and in those preinternet days to every legislature in america saying in case you want to, you can still do this, and why wouldn't you? it's always a winning issue to go after congress, so why wouldn't you want to pass this? so in the 1990s, finally enough states go ahead and ratify this. the 12th amendment, thank goodness we never passed this. would have guaranteed one representative, one member of the house for every 10,000

citizens. so we would be -- you think congress can't get anything done now, wait until there's 10,000 members of the house of representatives. >> what did monroe go on to do after losing the election? >> that's a great question. well, a happy ending for monroe. not at first. you know, you may be able to sense some familiar sentiments. james monroe was a very frustrated attorney. he didn't necessarily -- [laughter] didn't necessarily enjoy the practice of law. at one point, you know, early on he says i'm getting a law degree so i can run for office, it's going to be helpful in my political career, i'm never going to practice. and james monroe is winning an indictment against a man for stealing a dunbay mare from his neighbor. some things never, ever change. [laughter] what happens is there is a dret, and one of the two senators from

virginia dies, and monroe is chosen to fill the vacancy. so he goes on to a fantastic career. he is ambassador to france, he helps negotiate the louisiana purchase along with james monroe -- or james madison who was the secretary of state for thomas jefferson. the two of them will have a little bit of a falling out again over who should succeed jefferson as president. some of the opponents of thomas jefferson coalesce behind monroe as a possible candidate to go up against jefferson's chosing successor who is madison. the two of them preside over the war of 1812 together. and they will go on to be the best of friends in retirement when their public careers are over. they will serve at the end of their lives, toward the end of their lives in a state constitutional convention in virginia. those two and john marshall. and all these young hotheads. and what they're fighting over is representation in virginia. you know, there were very few

slaves west of a certain line in virginia, so western virginia didn't have the reputation that eastern virginia did. similar to a debate we had at the constitutional convention. madison and monroe tried everything. they said, well, how about one branch, maybe the senate, could be base withed on, it could be equal and maybe the house it could be, you know, we're not going to take slaves into account. they say you guys don't know what you're talking about. this is the danger of bringing old men into public life. [laughter] at first they're so excited to have them there, they elect madison to chair the convention, then you're all wet, old man. you don't know what you're talking about. and, of course, they didn't appreciate the fact that the union had once been so perilous, and they knew what it was like to live in a time when it was an open question whether america could live as one country. and if only they had listened, those old men had someless cons to seep -- lessons to teach them yet.

>> did madison remain in the federalist camp, or did his time with jefferson and monroe switch him over to the democratic republicans? >> there's a lot of discussion, i think it's clear that madison moves out of what had been traditionally the federalist orbit. you see, the two parties were roughly defined by theirings position on the constitution -- their position on the constitution. you've really removed the source of the, the source that divided the anti-federalists and the federalists. so now that the constitution, the question of whether to keep the constitution is out of the way, they find new issues to fight about. and so the new parties sort of fall on different lines. and i think buck see a split -- you can see a split between jefferson and hamilton, i think you'll find james madison was firmly on jefferson's side of that split. all right, looks like no more questions. thank you, everybody. [applause]

now on book tv larry recounts the fallout from bernie madoff ponzi scheme and the effect it had on its family. the author was given access to all members of the family and reports how his sons andrew and mark and his wife reacted to the illegal activities. this is about half an hour. >> hello. i am diane leslie and i am here to welcome you to the bookstore. when the information broken "the new york times" about the i don't even know what to college,

the madoff debacle, the madoff scandal, it was so shocking and so fascinating, and i don't think since watergate was i rushing to get the paper every day to read the next episode of what had happened. how's the story unfolded, i was thinking this is like a great tragedy. this is amazing. and if only we had aeschylus' here to write about it and later on as we got more and more information and the victims, we started seeing what happened here to some of the people who invested with the madoffs i started thinking shakespeare should have done that. this only shakespeare could write this foley.

well, now time leader, three years later, you're br, and i can across laurie's book, and i want to say that it's utterly fascinating. i mean, we thought we knew everything, but we didn't come and just reading about the family and finding out that bernie madoff is absent from the book because you couldn't interview him, but at least i as a reader would say this man was bullied and he will leave his wife and his sons so they got to the point they were afraid to ask them questions. he certainly didn't answer their questions. and so, there's a whole

psychological element they managed to get into this book that just was never in the newspapers and i want to say that i think the madoff family was incredibly lucky to pick laurie because of the possible journalists who could have written this book she is the best because she herself grew up with a con man in her life. so, i now present to you someone who really knows what she's talking about. [applause] >> thank you so much for that very generous and wonderful introduction and thank you to the diesel bookstore for having me today. i just want to tell you a little bit about how the book came to be and i'm going to read a chapter from the book.

in 2009, september 2,000 mine a book that i had written called about my own father and his exceptions cannot and i was reading from another bookstore much like this one, and that stage of signing books a woman approached me and said i can't believe you are here, i can't believe your story and introduced herself as the fiancee of andrew madoff. that of course after the scandal it was completely mind-boggling and i'd been following it like everybody else, and i came to know the family over the course of the two years. like so many people that had been following the story, i felt that andrew was most likely involved when he and his brother had known. i was convinced that growth must have known and it was really only have a curiosity that sort of brought me into the story. i was a journalist and i wanted to get to the truth of the story like every other journalist out there and the people in the

public. so when i was -- when it came time that they were ready to write a book and i sat down with them and was taken into the heart of their story, i was astonished to find that nothing i thought i knew was true. so i just going to read to the chapter from the concession itself, and there we go. the concession. 6:50 a.m. they were once again in the conference room behind the floor. the shot each other looks periodically the silence to speculate or offer a new theory. the only thing they knew something was terribly wrong. way o'clock a.m. peter still hadn't arrived. mark shook his head lynn sweet at our desk. according to the court filings the hit to get out some 15 million in the two separate recalls in the account in the prior three weeks. they asked to remove the money into the bank account so they could use it to cover the reductions. she did the bidding on questioningly. something that the media claimed

as a pro for investment but then the family moved millions of dollars around the time by and the apartments, making transfers and will tie million dollar donations to the organization's. had this question in the directive he would have parked her and that would have been the end of the conversation. it wasn't until 9:20 a.m. that he spotted peter making his way across the floor. peter is his brother. they hurried into the conference room. they felt the back of the nec hot with anticipation. peter stood by the door. i talk to your father. it's bad. he wants to talk to you himself, he said. his stomach dropped. he knew that his uncle intended to put a positive spin on things. they pushed their chairs back and followed him on to the floor. the top two colleagues shouting orders at their desk. evan st of offices, a cluster of secretaries on a large conference room.

the what seemed to take forever. when they arrived at the exhibit office and found him sitting behind his desk leaning back in his chair staring at a television set mountain of the ceiling. he didn't even acknowledge their arrival. they took the two chairs facing verney and sat on the couch next to his desk and for a few minutes before the the 04 of them sat in silence. i don't know where to start. his voice caught in his throat and tears in his eyes. he felt a river of alarm rise through his chest. he was studying bernie intensely. let's not do this at the main desk. let's move to the table in the corner. they gathered around the small conference table at the far end of the room where they offered more privacy. again, he started to talk and couldn't continue. dumbfounded he watched his father's struggle for words. i can't do this year he finally said. andrew looked at his father feeling as though she had entered the world of the surreal.

what can possibly be so bad that he couldn't even discuss it at the office. why don't we go to your apartment, he suggested. aren't we all the way up there? he cleared his throat. no, you stay here and run the show while we go to the apartment. he nodded and left the office. the plaza was right outside of his law office to begin as they struggled into their gear they said to the secretary have them bring the car around. where are you going. mind your own business, he snapped and immediately stared at the computer. andrew, mark and verney rode the elevator down in silence then waited in the lobby of the lipstick building watching them streak across the revolving door. there was no small pox. andrew tried to blend into the surroundings wished he could be tempered to his parents' apartment so he could get whatever was going to happen over with. the anticipation was unbearable.

again, they were in silence. the sandwich between his two sons in the back street were shaken struggling to hold it together as though he already received bad news. he stood at the window and explained a dead zone. he dropped him off on 64th street in front of the entrance to the penthouse apartment. the three went up to the 11th floor entrance and removed their shoes. they laid their quote deep the cuts across the banister. they greeted them at the door. she had no idea her husband would rush home in the middle of the day to talk to his family that she suspected the news was bad. somehow connected to the mayhem on wall street. the call from the office and said i have something to tell you. i can't tell you on the phone. i'm coming home with the ways. she got off the phone shaking and we did in the kitchen. together the family entered the

room khaki carpeting, dark foot chairs and a heavy. he sat by himself on the large leather sofa next to the couch. andrew took the ottoman and mark took the chair. they set a considerable distance apart. i don't know where to start, he began. he started to sob. i'm broke. how was that possible, he asked. i don't understand. estimate of the money is gone. it's over. stomach i don't understand how can that be? what happened. is this about the redemption? then he said something more terrible than they could have imagined. it's been a big lie. it's a giant ponzi scheme and it's been going on for years and there's been these redemptions and i can't keep it going anywhere. i can't do it to get he started to sob with disconnect freezes. he was trying to piece together with his father was saying that the sentences evaporated.

the continued to disappear. he lit a cigarette, her hand shook. but as a ponzi scheme? it means the business was a fake, he said. i've been longing to all of you for years, to your mother come to you, i've been longing to the customers and to myself. i have an appointment to meet on monday, he continued referring to the family lawyer and i am probably going to jail. he broke down nearly solving. he rose across the room and with an arm around his father for a few seconds at that he started to cry, too. he got up and returned. through his tears he said there was all this money. where did it go? it is gone. i have 50 billion in my ability, his voice trailed off. 50 million? 50 billion. he now glanced at his brother. he recognized that look. av gain was in his temple. i still don't understand.

how was this going to unfold? his mind racing to process what it meant how it would affect him what was going to happen. i've got 100 million of cash left going to redeem that money frenzied family. that is when it is all going to unravel. what are these people going to? what about souci coming andrew asked referring to his mother-in-law invested her life savings with them. what about jim are they going to get their money back? i'm doing my best. i have a list of people. wheat, he interrupted. how can you do that? they won't get to keep that money. >> they will come he explained and started to outline other situations where the firms failed and investors were made whole. he stopped him not wanting to hear more. how long has this been going on? it's been going on for years. much has been on defaults started and the truth is no one really knows. he started in the 60's when computers were not even in use. the records for that time even the modern regulatory

requirements don't require records that go beyond six years. he planned the ponzi scheme began in 1992. the only questionable behavior he engaged in before then was at worst a gray area involving synthetic trades to the income tax class for most important clients. the evidence that he executed actual trade into the 80's. whether the original ponzi scheme started or much earlier only she knows. what about me and my family? what is going to happen to us? i've been doing the math, he said. i've been looking for the records and the end of the day the amount of money that's taken in and over the years is about a wash. >> this is bullshit yield and storm out of the room. i'm going with him, andrew said, and then after his brother. he was fumbling with his shoes yankee his coat over his arm. i'm leaving, he repeated. let's go. he followed his brother to the elevator and what am i doing? and drew shouted into the wind.

the old man is still upstairs waiting for him. mark already set off the skirt to the curb and andrew sat on the seat next to his brother. the cab driver turned around. where to? just drive, he instructed. they started to inch down which was part of the park. andrew felt grateful. would buy him time to think. he turned to mark. what do we do? we need a lawyer right now. >> what do we do? walk into the lobby andrew asked referring to the firm famous. no, we need a real lawyer a criminal defense one. he will know what to do. his father-in-law was a retired senior litigator that represented spiro agnew during the trials and jackie kennedy and her lawsuit. he and his wife was staying at the hotel while their apartment was being renovated. he leaned into the partition. take us to 49th street and first avenue. the cab turned left as he

punched the number into his cell phone. .. and made her way into the background to transfer the office christmas party scheduled for that night. for the occasion and she will thought it lacked proper blouse with detail on the collar. i she stumbled with a small but, she had the thought, i'll never read this again.

she paired it with a black skirt just below the knees and a pair of tall suede boots with a heel. she had never liked her legs. the thought of not attending a christmas party didn't cross your mind. of course they were going. before he laughed, bernie said we have to show up and not think everything is fine. yes she nodded again numbly, yes, okay. it was then went and remarked entered this week. the inner thought he had for a year. a pile of suitcases at the front door, or degraded. but that happened? mark pastors under ahmad. now is mark's turn to do the talking. my father just confess to a huge crime. he said his whole business is a ponzi scheme that permits insolvent and their safety billion 15. 59? now, 50 iliad and what would become a refrain. marty potts. i need to sit down. mailer retained banc is

underhand. that's not important. tell me everything he said. enter mark repeated everything they could rather about the conversation with her father. he think he's saying? do you think he was telling the truth? .com and are sad. you have been having a psychotic break. marty sundown and the only guy you want to talk to in this situation. he picked up a solid occultists are. after waiting on hold for a given up he launched into an abbreviated description of the days events. i've got my son-in-law and his brother here and they've just given me this incredible story. i need to see right now. it's urgent. how quickly can you get here? and litigating the case. can you give me more information? 's father confessed her huge crime or need to talk about it right away he urged.

okay, i can be there by 3:00 p.m. party turned recommender are looking not your savior. he's going to come with his associate. he's the newest partner, one of the rising stars in the litigation area. the two are perfect. do what you have to do it lets me here at 3:00 p.m. andrew mark left the tower and stood on the streets feeling modest. there two hours to kill. mark set on going home. i've got to talk to stephanie. and you're set on going back to the office. he walked back to the lipstick building. as he passed through the training room, he saw colleagues in a proprietary training site where can i found. some are yelling, others joking around. traders worked diligently at their desk, frowning, disturbing numbers. enter stared at the familiar moonscape at their desk. he entered his office. it is digitized has been spent at his desk on the trading floor

in his private office was in a place where he spent lots of time. he might put his briefcase tom thumb has caught on the door and take a conference call for the energy business. now he sat down and stared into space. he opened the door. are you okay? now i'm not okay. i know this is awful. mark and i are ready with an attorney at 3:00 p.m. okay, peter said away. he sat staring at the pictures in the various awards and honors of the 20 years the business. strange, frightening exhausted, more than anything he was trying to understand what happened. $50 billion. the number to register. it is inconceivable. richer would make the asset management business one of the largest hedge funds in the world. bridgewater, renaissance, not even close to that size. he turned the days events over and over in his head playing and replaying conversations. his phone rang. it was catherine. his fiancée. should i get my hair.i'm not she asked on an issue if a million miles away. he had no idea what she was

talking about. your hair? he struggled to remember if they had spoken vaguely recall texting her. for the party, aren't going? yeah, we're going i think you have to to run. what does this office that when the next time he would return to be six months later accompanied by his attorneys and the fbi that he could recover his personal assets. marty and andrew erlich arrived at 3:00 p.m. sharp. he was short and sadness at this with a side classes. luke was tall, slender and young. the lawyer showed parents out of ring close, both wearing suits and ties. marty london through to recap the story. are you familiar with ernie middaugh? the boys told this incredible story is running a ponzi scheme to the tune of $50 billion. 50 million laos? billion with a b. do you think he was saying? was a time the truth? no one from family members to the top lawyers in the country could wrap their head around that figure. it would dwarf the worldcom

scandal which was 11 billion mean purdy made off had made the biggest financial fraud in history. over the next hour they describe in depth who they were, jobs at the firm, relationship to parent, wives. he asked repeatedly if they were involved in the fraud. we had no idea they kept repeating. none whatsoever. we were completely blindsided. they walked up the story. we need to report this and i'm not even precisely sure how to do that. driven a partner at the firm who came on board. want to get his thoughts on this. the clock was ticking. it was 35:00 p.m. soon the sec's office of close to the needed someone on the phone but had to be the right person. they turn to andrew mark. are you post conflict in this he asked? there's a clear sense of who's in charge. he knew the right thing to do it wasn't going to get any other option but to do it. yes, let's do it ander said.

let's do a mark repeated. and i looked at his brother. we're doing the right thing. mark nodded. reflecting on the ballot today, and reset some of that to say that mark and i were waving the flags of justice in the air but the bottom line is we were absolutely terrified. we knew what were doing was going to son or father to jail and the feeling is awful, i'm fairly awful. you give me a minute and reset. he walked into the bedroom feeling is nice combo as he crossed the threshold, thinking to the ground and holding onto a radiator, he let out an enormous fraud at tore through his chest and burned his throat. so aln he was the richer they come from him. sadly never he punched his stomach trying not to. when it subsided he wiped away his tears the back of his hand and stood up on wobbly legs. he cleared his throat can return to the living room and sat down pulling out a song he sang katherine attacks. were definitely not going tonight. then he turned. make the call you said. with instructions to use sure

nothing can andrew mark left the hotel suite. they got into separate tabs in ander headed uptown to the apartment he moved into two days earlier. he walked in the front door, turn into his bedroom and laid on top of the bed. he was still wearing his overcoat, suit and shoes. the next four hours to live there completely numb. i've just turned my father ran for security fraud. he's going to go to jail. i have no idea what's going to happen with my life. my entire family is infested with him. many employers at the firm, everyone i know. who knows how many others. he's going to go to jail. as anders started he racked his brain for some inkling he could've seen coming. how could he possibly have missed something this big? nothing came other than the image of his father rotting in jail because he and his brother turned him in. he had no idea how much time it passed before katharine gun into the room. she sat down on the ed and the

bad. innocent woman who brought so much joy in his life he could not allow her to get into the frenzy. she waited. her huge blue eyes searching has. her last moment of not knowing. he couldn't bear the thought of living if she laughed and could masker to stay. and are sad, leaned over and turned on the way. he doesn't remember what he said after that. when entering katherine crawled under the covers are longest most painful day of his life, catherine said something forever seared into his memory. the same time i'm not going anywhere. wake me if you need me. i'll be here all night. her cheek against his back, and that moment he said those words saved his life. he wouldn't have to face this alone. he said those same words that were ever in a sense. they celebrated their frenetic year of marriage onto the office christmas party. and days for one put in front of the other, smiled, had a glass of wine and left.

beyond that, she doesn't remember a thing. the evening was lucky, and terror. she had no interest in getting it back. n-november she can't erases her son mark fleeing from her home, the golden child, mamas boy who called her every day from college and had given her three beautiful children with one on the way. it is the image of his back is burnt into burnt into her brain since it's the last station she would ever have. she never saw him again. that said. [applause] and i'm happy to take questions if anybody has questions about absolutely anything. >> i will just start with unobvious question. [inaudible] -- to bernie made up? >> that's an excellent question. he is serving a hundred 50 years in prison at huttner correctional. he is not never to speak to his father again and has no

knowledge. ruth changed her number and bernie couldn't get in touch with her. we would of course assume he has read the book and will read the book because he's been very involved in anything that comes out about him. he reads and comments on it. so we'll see. i'm pursuing interview with him actually. >> a magazine article. >> can you tell us any interesting things that have happened as he promoted the book where people who have come up to your anything like that? >> that's a great question. basically it has been a very interesting experience since the book came out. and now, i wasn't sure. obviously this is not a biography. i would not put my name on the book if i didn't believe entirely in its content.

but it is a book and the fed it to the relatives of bernie madoff. given the extent people's lives were destroyed, there is so much anger, so much richer now and sadness and so much wrapped in the story. and people were unable to separate béarnaise family and i got there with the glut of outcry. there's been a lot of outcry and the internet. i haven't personally been accosted or anything like that. there's been lots of very interesting people who have had their minds changed. the night before my book came out, 60 minutes did a piece on the book and andrew and ruth made off and let his people had their minds changed as a result of the 60 minutes piece. entering katherine has gotten hundreds of letters from people named that happened of me, too. obviously on a smaller scale. so there's been a surprising amount of that as well and they

have had literally, from the general public at large there has been no support the do not do this because people automatically assumed they were involved, as i ascend until i've really spent significant time with them. >> when your approach to read the book, what was your initial action? >> i wasn't actually approached to write the book. have been much more organically. i had read a book i'd written about my own imposters out there and his fiancée evander had randomly without my reading and want to spend time with me. the first couple of dinners i actually spent the first thanksgiving after the scandal. i'm estranged from my own father for a very similar reasons than i was going to thanksgiving at my house and they invited me to thanksgiving at their house. as a journalist i was curious what it would be like. it was very interesting. there were a lot of new friends

they've made since the scandal. mark was not there. there's a huge rift between the brothers that i go into great detail in the book, but i've no idea about that until i got to know them. after two years they were finally ready to tell their story and finally led to tell their story because there's ongoing settlement. and at that point it was just obvious that i was going to be the person who is going to sit down with them. but even two years into my acquaintanceship with them, i was not at all convinced it injures innocents. and it really wasn't until i sat down with him and he gave me such a detailed explanation about the way that businesses are separated, the fact that they were completely investigated by the government come in their files, every single computer files taken apart. they were never indicted. the people that are in jail are awaiting trial but of every reasonable in the world to turn in and get a reduction of sentence and were unable to do so. very many mitigating dues in

addition to the psychological component that convinced me. you just need the microphone. >> i may be confused about this, but is there a book coming out that's going to be written by the fiancée? >> now, no. andrea madoff? she did in the book. [inaudible] >> she was instrumental in giving me access to the family. the family was completely muzzled, quiet, not speaking to any price whatsoever. i was the first person i spoke to as a result of my interactions with catherine. >> anyone else? >> questions?

>> i was curious as you explore this story, did it change how you thought about your own father? because i read your other book and that was so great. i am just wondering what the tie is between the. >> at such a great question. you know, i have not spoken to my father and my father hasn't spoken to me i should say since 2003 when i first read a piece for "esquire" about what i found out about my father. i wrote that piece anonymously and that led to a graphic memoir i wrote and illustrated. and of course it is a process going through an estrangement with a parent, separation, the trail. in the beginning i had all these feelings about my mother and father and was a really interesting for me was just sort of watch them at the beginning of the process themselves to see how much anger anger has against his father and his mother, which is starting to debate through the process of time, talking

with her, hearing what she went through during this whole thing because andrew and his brother left after the compassion and didn't speak to her parents again until mark killed himself. he had no contact with his mother for two years. and to watch him do that to my own story into this. and while coming in now, the anger towards my father has long since abated and i would speak to my father if he wanted to speak to me, you know, i feel like it's a process and i'm seven years in the process and andrew is right at the beginning, so i've been able to talk to him about what my experience was, but you just have to go through it and it takes time. anyone have any other questions? no? okay, while tinny macquarie much for having me. [applause]

>> for more information, visit the author's website, laurie sandell.com. >> the university is currently cataloguing the collection at the fenwick library. book notes, an hour-long interview program hosted by brian lamb aired from 1989 to 2004. gmu's university library and shows us collection entitled beyond the book. >> and the mind of brian, this book is the jenna says of the book notes program, as c-span. by reading this book, he decided he wanted to interview the author and that gave him the idea of book notes.

it would be worthwhile for him to read a lot of votes and he talked to the authors. >> 801 total episodes of "book notes" all original and this is the first official "book notes"? >> exactly. brezinski of course was the chair of the security council for the carter administration. >> host: john zenelis, when you pick the books to go in these display cases, who picks these? >> guest: several of my colleagues in the special collections and archives area. they made the selections of the works to be highlighted and they made the annotations accompany each of the displayed items and they chose to select questions asked on the "book notes"

televised program by brian lamb and produced the answer but the response provided to that question. post go here again in the ben franklin book you can see a lot of notes taken while reading the book. when you put these books in the cases, did you look for varying points of view? like as c-span does in general? >> guest: yes, exactly so. earlier i mentioned one of the criteria was to reflect the broad is involved in the "book notes" and that is exactly the point. there are various subjects covered in the 801 books and certainly many, many points of view from our political perspective, social is coming humanistic day, all kinds of

days. >> host: is this archive available for scholars are for the public? >> guest: it is beginning to become available. library staff are in the process of cataloguing the collection. we are about 40% through it at this point. for the titles that authority than catalogs, yes, they are available to any student faculty member here at the university and of course because this information is accessible through the world wide web to scholars elsewhere. in the united states and abroad. >> host: so you'll put it on the george mason website at some point? >> guest: most definitely. poster we've seen some of the books on display. you've also got posters at the library. i want to start from the sun. this is from maya lin's book "book notes" interview. what are we looking at here?

>> guest: we look at two pieces of paper. one is a page from a writing pad that has brian lamb's notes about the book. and then, we have an envelope from a bill it looks like verizon, where he also has made additional notes, including some personal information. i understand hanbury was the first person that employed playing professionally in a professional capacity. so it shows that brian lamb maintained relationships throughout his life with his early mentors. >> well, let's continue and look at the full collection if we could. then again, we've got posters

throughout. >> guest: yes, the purpose of the posters is to connect this part of the exhibit to the other part of the exhibit, which is this building complex. >> host: can about the counter and see these books? >> guest: yes, most definitely. we are in the other part of the exhibit, which is outside our special collections and archives area. here we have three display cases containing materials from the books collection. in this particular case, it is not just that looks, but we also have what we consider an artifactual or archives part of the collection, which is relating to the book of cornell west and it is john cole train

music -- part of the music. >> host: mr. john zenelis, two of the books have notes? >> guest: aviaries. i understand from brian, originally he was not making annotations within the books themselves. he was making notes separately. he has retained some of those notes, but not all of them. but later on as the program progressed, he started making note in the books themselves. >> host: now, in the long term, what they escape being open as it is now to the air in the late?

>> guest: well, all physical materials overtime deteriorate. however, we have libraries especially in special collections and archives have a special environmental conditions to preserve paper and anything that is an original paper. so under proper care, this writing should last for centuries. these particular books can only be used on-site in the region of the special collections and archives to which will be coming later. however, we have other copies available in the general collection of libraries is available for for circulation. >> host: more notes from one of the book. why did this and get blown up? what was special about this one?

>> guest: we understand that paul ferrero was one of the favorite authors of brian. and as you can see from this poster, the blown up notes he really became interested in this particular book and that's why we chose it because of the significance to the author. >> host: here you have a letter to brian from betty ford and. >> guest: exactly. recommending the book be considered for "book notes." and i should point out that the late professor was a professor here at george mason university. in fact, in this case contains another book by a mason professor, which is say cheese, which by the way is the only

fiction book to be highlighted in the "book notes" program. >> host: so here's the last of the 801 books? >> guest: exactly. these hooks are shelved in the order that they were in brian mann's office as c-span. and also they are in the order of the televised programs. >> host: said beginning here, besides the ones that are taken out -- >> guest: to indicate where the exhibit volumes along in this arrangement. >> host: and so these are the books in order, correct class >> guest: exactly, yes. >> host: word you -- did you watch someone? >> guest: yes, i was a regular "book notes" viewer. when brian lamb and i are on

their come in the program is coming to an end. i made a mental note that the next day i needed to look into the matter of whether we could obtain the collection and the associated archive from the c-span organization. soon thereafter we made contact with mr. brian lamb. we visited him. we presented three separate proposals from 2005 until 2010. and then we convinced brian that george mason university with be a good home for the collection. but more importantly, he was impressed