the order of those adjectives is wrong and it was probably cheaper in good. it worked out for me. >> here is a new book by clare cushman, "courtwatchers: eyewitness accounts in supreme court history." >> and snell from george washington university, twitter.com/booktv talks about his book, "the making of modern afghanistan." >> professor benjamin hopkins, what is the east india company? >> the british east india company was a semi commercial company founded in the year 1600 by royal charter by queen elizabeth, which gave it the exclusive right to trade with the indies, english merchants. over time that transformed into a kind of peer saddle juggernaut

and the myth that is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but the key thing about the east india company was that after the mid 18th century these to the company came to rule over much of the south asian subcontinent, which included most of modern-day bangladesh, india, and pakistan. the east india company was rolled up in 1858 following the great beauty of 1857 and 1858. control of the south asian subcontinent passed directly to the british crown. >> how did this to its charter? >> its charter was granted to a group of merchants who have petitioned the elizabethan court for the exclusive right to trade, and it was actually one of a number of european trading companies, including the hudson bay company that was also chartered by the english crown, but its main competitors were the french east india company, which comes in the late 17th

century, and more powerful the and importantly, the dutch east india company which is largely followed the same course of conquest and rule, but over the indonesian archipelago. >> now, when you say that it ruled, what was its geographical area that it ruled, and how did it rule? >> that is a very complex question. the east india company, being a kind of paris to organization did not exercise the same kind of rights and privileges that we think of as a state. what dry mean by that? well, over the areas of south asia, which it ruled, it did not rule exactly as a sovereign. it control that area both as a vassal of the move will emperor who had rights to collect taxes, but also as a subject of the british crown. the east india company had this dual nature where it recognized both the sovereignty of the british crown and also the suzerainty of the emperor.

it was charged with the ruling over great swathes of south asia in the name of both these monarchs at the same time. now, the area where it had formal control actually rather than, as it were, coloring all of the map red, was splotches of concentration. for instance, cut, where its main trading port was. there was a strong, established presence, but when you get into the countryside up until the 20th century there were a number of indian peasants that had never seen a white man. and so the control over the countryside was boccie, at best, which, in part, explains its downfall in 1857. >> host: in your book, "the making of modern afghanistan," what is its role in afghanistan? what was its rule? >> guest: the east india company had a number of

different strategic interests in the area beyond the river which would include much of modern-day pakistan and what we think of as modern-day afghanistan. the east india company's main concern was that of security, not external security so much. there is a large swath of historical literature which talked about the so-called great came in afghanistan which is this issue of anglo-russian of rivalry between competing and expanding british empire and south asia and the russian empire and central asia. yet, rather than being concerned about an external enemy, the russians necessarily, at the early part of the 19th century, the east india company was much more concerned with its own internal security. what it sought to do was to stabilise its rule within south asia by stabilizing its

frontier, and so the east india company initially gets drawn into afghanistan, as a matter of fact, in order to stabilize its home rule. >> host: when did the great game begin? >> guest: it -- if one subscribes to it it really begins -- there is some literature that says it begins in the early 18th and 19th century. other literature release sees the heyday in the late 19th century. once the russians established their own rule over the central asian emirate and will instead build the central asian railroad , but it is important to note that even the most hawkish british strategic thinker, when writing about the impending russian threat to british india marching through afghanistan, virtually all of them acknowledge that this was a far

away, if not impossible thing that would happen. and the main concern was not actually, you know, hordes of russian cossacks invading british india as it was the rumor of a russian army which would spread around the bizarre and destabilize the security of the british indian state internally. >> host: so, professor hopkins, is the east india company responsible for british involvement in afghanistan, or how did that work? >> guest: yes. well, it was really driven by personalities, in large part. there are a number of players that in the 1830's as the east india company is recovering from part of a global depression and reassessing its role in south asia, some of the upper echelon of the company start to look for new opportunities.

it is a story of the flag following trade in which free traders are looking for opportunities to expand a british footprint and british influence in the area by driving british fleets into the area, and that that is of the east india company's involvement starts. they see this as a potential area of commercial development, but as i said, free trade at this point in time is also political and not simply an economic ideology. so it follows a trade in terms of once british goods are in the market and the bizarre is circulating, there is a feeling that the british flag or the flight of the east india company needs to be there to protect it and influence that. over time that snowballs and increasingly draws the east

india company into an increasing penetration and involvement with afghanistan. the other part that i think is very important and my own book touches upon is the east india company's role in south asia itself because the story i have just told you about trade, but russian influence, is one that is often told. what is less often told is how the east india company sees participation in afghanistan as a way of undercutting local rivals within south asia. for example, in the punjab where modern-day pakistan and india split there was an extraordinarily strong indigenous kingdom under a leader who was the main competitor to the east india company in 18 '20s and 1830's. he had a european trained army officer by eight ex napoleonic

officers, many of whom had connections with officers in the czarist army because once napoleon's forces broke apart many of the officers go as global mercenaries. and the east india company was fearful of his power. he had a standing professional european trained army of over 80,000 troops directly abutting the east india company's territory. so, in part, their interest in afghanistan was driven by a a strategy to encircle the leader and cut him off by making a buffer state between an expanding russian empire and english empire, but also an encircling state which would cut off the potential for him to flex muscle. >> host: so, professor hopkins , how much responsibility does the british involvement

value our discussion have been making what is today afghanistan? >> guest: it would be correct to say afghanistan is a colonial creation. i think it is important to note that simply saying it is a colonial creation does not mean it is in some way no real. after all, the united states of america was a colonial creation the 13 colonies that broke away from the british crown in the 1860's. so that is up to take away from its validity as a political entity. it is to say that the involvement that starts under the auspices of the east india company under the auspices of the british crown is essentially formative of what becomes known

today as afghanistan. the british are the ones who draw the boundary that is agreed to in 1893 and is unilaterally drawn by the british over the following 40 years. the british and depressions, excluding the afghans, delineate the northern border. the border with iran is done under british auspices in arbitration between afghan an iranian sovereigns. so the british involvement in this area is fundamentally shaped what we now know as modern-day afghanistan. that is not to say there was not a previous heritage of a political society in density or that in any way it is somehow illegitimate because it has an external boundaries imposed upon the, but it is to recognize the importance of the british in forming what we now think of have -- as afghanistan today.

>> host: in the time of the east india company and the british military being involved, what was the reaction of the afghanistan tribes? >> guest: well, the british invaded for the first afghan war in 1839 over a botched series of negotiations that lead to an insult that leads to the invasion. we need to remember that, first of all, when the british east india company troops invade the majority of those troops are actually hindus. subsequently the british indian army. most of the troops that fight in the first, second, and third afghan war our indian troops. that carries a different dynamic to it. secondly, upon their initial arrival what the british did in

their previous incursions' into afghanistan is largely what the americans didn't, which is basically buying off those who might make their entry more and more difficult. however, what happens over time is that british troops became overextended. their occupation increasingly became a source of tension with local political leaders, and those political leaders were able to mobilize a kind of the xenophobic pinkston amongst the populace of afghanistan and drive them out so that the first afghan war most famously the defeat of the british garrison were forced to retreat in the winter of 1841 and 1842 and a

supposedly slaughtered. a famous picture having been the only survivor. of course he was not. -- the methodology of empire maintains that he was. what is forgotten is the fact that the british returned the next spring with an army of retribution that went ahead and destroyed the largest bazaar in central asia. so what we see is with british incursions into the region that over time as it were their welcome, and it becomes a focal point of resistance which becomes unity for afghans to drive up the british indian troopers. >> host: as it happens, your book is called ..

we have been talking 150, 250 years of history. what can we learn from what the have been talking about? >> well, before i engage with that it is important to remember that history is built on recognizing context. the course of events that happened in the early 19th century involves a lot of specific sets of circumstances. well the map the generalities of a control for work, we need to be aware of context that the challenges that face to the afghan bali -- body politick were in ways fundamentally similar and also the fundamental difference. having said that caveat i think that what we can see that begins in the early 19th century are

some important themes that continue to shape the afghan body of politics today. one is the marginal as sinn -- marginalize asian into an increasingly isolated economy. before the east india company arrived afghanistan had been a have of economic activity which had supplied regional markets ranging from east, west, and south asia. the role as a supplier to south asia which were core items for the move will court, the emperors of the indian subcontinent. the afghans supplied mercenaries . extra men who could fight in the wars. this applied the horses. central asians and afghan horses

were very famous for their ability to withstand the pressures of warfare. thirdly, they supplied fruit, which was a luxury item, the lotus or maserati of the 19th century. in fact, the first founding mogul emperor writes in his journals about the fruits of the dali and how he misses those. a status symbol that comes replaced as the british takeover. instead of mellon's the gentry shows off his wealth with english clocks, and instead of using mercenaries the british east india company uses a professional trained force that no longer uses cavalry, horses, but rather instead uses a trained infantry. so the three pillars upon which the afghan political economy wrested an integrated into a vibrant regional economy are undercut by the entry of the

east india company. there have been effectively per realized. we see that again today. we see it again today were afghanistan has been a quarter of trade and intercourse for that region which has effectively been cut off as it has become impoverished being excluded from spans the traits of the only way it can participate in that trade is either through migration which is a huge outpouring that continues today in afghanistan or illicitly to the drug trade the second element we can bring forward is that politics, and what we see in the early 19th century is that the kind of social contract abolish the afghan body politic of unfounded

continues to crumble. there have distort the bin three bases of political power in afghanistan, islam, tribes, and what i called oralism. the wisdom of a specific branch the polish gen. what happens in the early 19th century the sources of legitimacy which said in its related, a three-pronged stool and enter into a very unstable relationship. what happens of the next 200 years is for the most part the afghan body politic is able to reconstruct and social contract using these basis of legitimacy, a very famous ruler. the use a little bit more of the realism and less of the islam versus some of his successors

who rely upon islam a load of more. the we see today is the breakdown of the social contract . the interesting thing to watch this hell, if at all, the afghan body politics can reconstruct that as the forces begin to withdraw. >> host: who is on the cover of your book? >> guest: the he was formerly te seat of government in the central government's where many of the characters are tossed. it was the afghan royal palace up until the ruler in the 1933 up until his overthrow in 1973 built in the palace. today it is actually a five because it is mined heavily all over the place commander is a cemetery of france where the marchers are buried.

>> host: is this incredible? >> guest: is. very close to the international stable systems for space. >> host: when were you there? >> guest: december of 2006. >> host: what was your experience? >> guest: to fold. the international stabilization systems, nato command. i then asked to deliver a lecture to the nato command. for part of the time i was there i was under their auspices, which was very constructive in terms of where you could go and what you could do. i was there, however, with a colleague of mine who is an anthropologist and as many connections. for half of the time we were with the nato forces and half of

the time we went to local, as it were. we follow the around a contact he had. that is that clothing, the famous taliban cap, i have my beard grown out, and surprisingly i was often mistaken for being afghan, for being from a particular section. and so we traveled around essentially in god bidault, especially in the north of the country for a time meeting afghans and discussing, kind of getting much more on the ground. and the difference and distance between the two images that we received were extraordinarily stark in that this was 2006, and we talked largely with people from the north of the country, especially people who from us --

people who are from a certain valley who follow a famous hero of the afghan jihad and the leader of the northern alliance who was killed on september september 9th. cities of the be the people most apt to support nato and the continued american and international presence. and in the winter of 2006 they were saying, we give them a year. if no progress there will be war. at that point in time there had been no violence, and today we see that violence has, indeed, taken off on a large scale. so our sense steadily back in 2006 was an increasing sense of the loss of patients, a lack of clarity. why are these people here and what are their brilliance as a benefit? so that was definitely our sensibility at that point in time. >> host: when did the u.s. start its involvement? >> guest: american involvement really begins in the post second

world war moment. what happens is in 1947 the british withdrew from south asia in what was called the transfer of power, leaving to successor states, india and pakistan, pakistan, of course, being split from east and west. east pakistan would break off. the important point is that, however, in 1947, what happened was the assumption of old imperial responsibility that the british held was increasingly taken over by the united states. in the 1950's, the united states becomes increasingly involved in afghanistan through a. and through the 1960's that becomes a kind of competition with soviet aid, which is coming in from the north. so through the 50's and 60's there is a kind of friendly cold war rivalry which afghanistan

benefited from in many ways by playing these two off of each other. obviously things change in 1978 with the overthrow of the afghan markey and the assumption of power. the afghan communist party. at this point in time afghanistan goes over to the wrong side, as it were. the u.s. takes a hostile out posture which becomes even more high style with the soviet invasion in december of 1979. during the soviet occupation of the united states supplied and supported the anti-soviet lydian, as they call themselves, who waged a guerrilla war. in 1985 they lost something called operation cyclone which was a clandestine support program which supplied the

fighters with weapons in cash to the pakistan eight and the service intelligence agencies. was the soviets withdrew in 1989 they continued to support the afghan communist governments until the collapse of the soviet union in 1991. the u.s. continued to supply the mujahideen, though at a lower level, up until that collapsed in 1991 and the ending of the soviet subsidies to the afghan regime. at that point in time afghanistan really drops from the american radar. especially under the clinton presidency, there is very little interest in afghanistan. there is some residual interest from the refugees and also some kind of speculative it strategic interests out of what are called pipeline politics because x soviet have the huge natural gas

resources. there was talk about a pipeline running through afghanistan into pakistan in order to escape the russian or the iranian pipeline. however, afghanistan and really falls off of the radar until obviously post september 11th, 2001, when the united states invades with operation enduring freedom, and has been spending this year $110 billion, a 11 billion a month on operations in afghanistan. >> host: what was the purpose of president eisenhower's visit? >> president eisenhower's visit, which happens in 58, i believe, the winter 1958, was -- first of all, it was a tour that he put together in this in the days of his administration. as presidents do, they go abroad and polish their international credentials. it was really to kind of signal

to the afghan the american commitment to supporting afghan development who ended attempts to create some sort of strategic partnership with the afghans that, of course, with no place militarily and was never very high on the military will appoint. but it was a signal of the importance in which washington helped that relationship, and this should be noted that under the eisenhower administration, one of the largest aid project was begun in the 1950's. what this was was a series of dance which were constructed in the home in valley based of the tennessee valley. a story of the unintended consequences. using the tennessee valley authority as their model, american engineers about what it would do is jan their rivers in

order to create dependable irrigation supplies and begin to electrify the countryside. however, what happened was that in building those dams the eds and the consequences, actually, to raise the level of the water table, and in doing that brought to the surface all of the assault that had accumulated over time and that soil. the soil had previously been a productive reason for dry grain especially. with the slip to five salinity rising it makes it a very acidic soil, impossible to grow any of the former dry gate -- dry grain and also important -- impossible to grow any of the things the american agriculture's have been looking to grow such as citrus fruit. it becomes the perfect and decatur for a certain type of crop which we now know is open.

they had never been able to produce opium prior to 1950 when a u.s. aid projects solidified the soil. >> host: what do you teach? >> guest: freshman world history survey. i also in the history department teach modern south asian history . i teach master courses on the geopolitics of afghanistan. >> host: professor hopkins, people watching this, it might strike then that you are awfully young to be a professor. >> guest: i was very fortunate that i was -- i completed my doctorate fairly quickly. thirty-three. i did my doctoral work over the university of cambridge that had a slightly different set up. i was able to get my doctor done fairly quickly and fortunately turned into a manuscript. but that has been due to the support of an awful lot of

people. the. >> host: is this the manuscript? >> guest: that is my old manuscript. i have another book coming out in a month called "fragments of the afghan frontier" with columbia university press. >> host: how did you get interested in this area of the world? >> guest: that is a funny story that no one will believe. i was applying for graduate school to cambridge, and the person advising me said, just find whatever you want to do because in that application you have to put forward a proposal for what you want to do. it was august of 2001. i had taken a break between my undergraduate and starting my phd. i was calling to go to law school at the university of washington. i was researching areas that i thought i would want to do. i knew i wanted to do south asian history. i was looking around at afghanistan. ..

>> still, the academic community, the scholarly community is very, very small in terms of people who actually have a longstanding, developed understanding of afghanistan. there are a number of people, especially in washington, that have a great and deep understanding of its current politics. however, that kind of longer view of afghanistan, especially

pre-1979, is still something that needs to be much more fully developed within the academy. >> host: and finally, knowing what you know about the history of afghanistan and the area, what would you -- a prediction for what's going to happen in the next 10, 20 years. >> guest: um, well, i'm a historian, so i get to talk about the past rather than the present. with that caveat, i'd say what's probably most clear is going to be the ongoing u.s. role in afghanistan, and i think that probably everybody knows in the back of their mind what that ongoing role is going to be which is that, yes there, will be a troop draw down, but i suspect bagram will become -- that's the main base in afghanistan -- i suspect that will become a semi-permanent if not a permanent installation.

as far as the afghan state, really it goes back to what i was talking about earlier which is for the afghans to reconstruct that political compact upon which they've had a 200-year history of relative political stability and coherence. they definitely can reconstruct that. the international community can play either an obstructionist or a largely positive role in that, and i think how that's going to turn out is largely on how the international community and also stakeholders inside afghanistan act in the coming years. >> host: benjamin hopkins is the author, "the making of modern afghanistan" is the book published by palgrave. >> every weekend booktv offers 48 hours of programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. watch it here on c-span2.