his family. the author was given access to all members of the madoff family and reports how mr. madoff's two sons, andrew and mark, and his wife ruth, reacted to bernie madoff's illegal activities. this is about half an hour. >> hello. i'm diane leslie, and i'm here to welcome you to diesel, a bookstore. ..

>> then later as they got more information and restarted to see what happened to some of the people who had invested with the madoff family. and shakespeare should have done this. only shakespeare could write this fully. now, sometime later in three years later coming here we are and i came across laurie sendell book and i want to say this utterly fascinating. we thought we knew everything but we didn't and

just reading about the family because they did not interview him but at least i as "the reader" said this man was a bully and he bullied his wife and friends. that they were afraid to ask questions. they certainly or certainly he did not answer their questions. there is a whole psychological element that laurie managed to get into the book that was never in the newspaper to say the madoff family was incredibly -- incredibly lucky to pick laurie sendell

because she herself grew up with the con man in her life. now i represent someone to who knows what she is talking about. laurie sendell. [applause] spent thank you for that very generous and a wonderful introduction and also thank you for having me today. i just want to tell you how this book came to be that i want to read a chapter and in the summer of 2009 a book that had written about grandfather of his deceptions came out and i was reading in a bookstore like this one and i was signing books a woman approached me and said i cannot believe you are here or your story in introduced

herself as a fiancee evander madoff. my a jaw dropped it was in the middle of the scandal and it was mind-blowing and i have been falling like everybody else. i came to know the family over the course of two years of course, i thought he was most likely involved that they had known about their father's fraud i was convinced roosts in should have known and it was on the as i was a journalist wanting to get to the truth of the story like every other journalists out there. when it came time they were ready to write a book i sat down with them and taken into the heart of their story i was astonished to find nothing that i thought i knew was trooper car will just read from the chapter of the confession itself.

>> by 6:50 a.m. and trademark were once again in a conference room behind the trading floor. they shot each other looks breaking the silence to offer a new theory. one thing they knew that something was terribly wrong. by 8:00 a.m. peter still had not arrived in march shuck his head. wait at the desk. according to court filings ruth had taken out 50 million from her brokerage account in the prior three weeks she used the money to cover the reduction something the media claimed was proof of her involvement. >> and making large wire transfers to organizations in hef's of the web part to her that would be the end of the conversation. 92 '09 20:00 a.m. that he

spotted peter making his way across of the trading floor. as he took his seat he felt the back of his net grow hot in anticipation. he stood by the door. i talked your father. it is bad he wants to talk to himself. his stomach dropped. of the new the tended to put them spin on things. and shouting orders at the desk from the administrative offices a large conference room. the what seemed to take forever. when they arrived they found him sitting behind a desk to back his chair staring at a television set mounted on the ceiling. he did not acknowledge their rival. he took the two chairs facing 31 set on the couch. for a few minutes they sat in silence.

he said i don't know where to start. his voice caught in his throat and jrue feldmayer refer of alarm. he was studying intensely. he said let's move to the floor and 1/4. wallet offered a shade more privacy. dumbfounded he watched his father's struggle for words. he said i could not do this. he looked at his father. what could be so bad he could not even discuss it at the office? what we go to your apartment. are we all going up there? he said no. you stay here and run the show while the go to the apartment. the coat closet was right outside his office. as the three struggled in to

their dear he said to his secretary brings the car around. where and how to you going the market is open she joked. >> he said mind your own business she steered her computer. andrew and markka and bernie rode the elevator down in silence. then watching the rain there was no small talk. he tried to blend into his surroundings wishing a two be teleport did so he could get it over with. the anticipation was unbearable. again they rode in silence asa was between the two sons in the back were misty eyed and a stake in struggling to hold it together as though he had already received bad news. the early christmas shoppers had the dead zone. dropped off in front of the entrance to the penthouse apartment.

the three rode up to the entrance and removed there what shoes obeying the issues off role. they took care not to drop water on the floor. ruth greeted them at the door. she also had no idea why her husband had rushed home to talk to his family but she suspected the news was bad. somehow connected to the mayhem on wall street. he said i have something to tell you i cannot say one of all program coming home with the boy is. she had gotten off the phone is shaking waiting in the kitchen. together they enter the sitting room may room that antar never liked with dark green walls dark leather chairs and have the desk. he sat by himself on the large self up. ruth sat on a chair next to the couch and then the next the ottoman than the dust share they face each other sitting a considerable distance apart for quite know where to began began.

he began to sob. the firm is insolvent and i am a girl. >> the money is gone. it is over. >> i understand. and is is about redemption and? it has been one big guy. it is a giant ponzi scheme they're all these rich on day's redemptions economic keep it going anymore i cannot do it. he stared at his father. his mind as a jumble of phrases but goodies tried to piece together but the sentence was evaporating. ruth lit a cigarette. and the business is a fake have been lying to all of you for years. i of the mind your mother, you, customers come of myself. i have an appointment on money.

i will probably go to jail. he broke down sobbing. andrew rose across the room and put an arm around his father. said that he started to cry and then return to the ottoman through the tears he said there was all this money. where did paygo? the money is gone. i have $50 billion of liabilities. 50 million? >> 50 billion. he now glanced at his brother who had not set over. you recognize the luck. his face losses thread and a vein in his temple. i still don't understand. how does this unfold? he was processing. how would it would affect him and what would happen. >> 100 million of cash left. there will accounts it will redeem with friends and family. large redemption comes next week and it will unravel. >> what about suze west

referring two his mother and on that invested her life save then it -- savings'? will they get their money back? >> i am doing my best. plate. how can you do that? they will not be able to keep the money. they well. he started to align other situations where firms failed and investors were made whole. he stopped him. how long has this been going on? >> for years. a the truth is nobody knows when i really started. he started the firm in the '60s when computers were not been used for other records are then. even modern requirements don't require records beyond six years. he claims it began in 1992 but any questionable behavior was a gray area involving synthetic trades and to defray income-tax cost and there is evidence he did actual trades and eighties but it is started

then or earlier on the he knows. what about me and my family? or happen to was? >> i have been the case to the records at the end of the day the money i have taken in and paid out was awash. this is bullshit antioco out of the room. he ran after his brother. i am leaving he repeated. let's go. he followed his brother into the elevator. five seconds later. what my doing? the old man is still upstairs. mark had stepped off the curb nec's slid onto the sea. where to? >> just drive. he started to inch down madison avenue. he felt great fall he would have time to think. he turned to mart. what do we do?

>> we need a lawyer. right now. house? walked into the lobby and scream out? referring to the firm famous a corporate law? >> no. criminal defense. call marty. people know what to do. his father-in-law was a retired senior litigator he represented spiro agnew and jackie kennedy. they were staying at the beekman tower hotel while the apartment was renovated. take us to 49th street. the cab turned left and he touched a number. what you doing right now? get her out of limassol's. make an excuse. get her out of their. markka and andrew grove the rest of the way in silence. each in his own world of the year. >> she said that kitchen

ruth smokeless cigarette after another and bernie madoff had returned to the office. no embraces he said he had two march check's deposit and was going to go to the office in the morning to tell the traders. yes. after he left she sat there as is on the periphery eventually she rose to make your way into the bedroom to dress for the office christmas party that night. for the location and she had the black blouse with silver detailing on a caller. as she fumbled with the buttons she had the thought i will never wear this again. it was with the black skirt and the pair of tall suede boots. she never liked her legs spread of the thought of not attending the christmas party did not cross remind. of course, it never going. he said we have to shop and act like everything is fine. yes. she nodded.

it was noon when antar and mark interindustry. she felt as though they had been waiting a year. he greeted them. what happened? what the hell is going on? mark talked his father-in-law into the room. my father just confess to a huge crime for the whole business is a ponzi scheme the firm is insolvent and 50 billion missing. >> 50 million? >> no. 50 billion. this would be a refrain. he paused. i need to sit down my whole retirement fund is with him. he recovered. that is not important. tell me everything he said. they repeated everything they could remember. do think he was saner telling the truth? yes. he was a rambling were having a psychotic break. he sat down. this is incredible. we need is the firm's senior

litigator and the only guy you want to talk to in this situation with a ton of experience. he picked up the phone and call the firm. then he heard him answer and went into an abbreviated description in. i have an incredible story need to see you right now. how quickly can you get here? >> i am in connecticut litigating a case. can you give me more information? >> his father confessed to reduce crime and we have to talk about it right away. >> by than looking at him he will come with his associate the firm's newest partner one other rising stars and they are perfect. do you have to do in be back here 3:00.

said two hours to kill then he said i'm going home. i have to talk to stephanie in in do city is going back to the office. he saw his colleagues on proprietary trading summer yelling others were joking they were working diligently at their desk and he stared at the unfamiliar landscape. he entered the office the day was solely spent at the trading floor that was the placer he spent lots of time. to put a conference call. are you okay? >> no. i am not. this is awful. what you doing? >> we're meeting with an attorney at 3:00 p.m.. andrew sat staring at the

various awards and honors he had received strained and exhausted more than anything u.s. trying to understand what had happened. $50 billion? the number did not register. it was inconceivable it would make the asset management business one of the largest in the world. nine was even close to that size. turning it over and over replaying the conversation. the phone rang. it was his fiancee some connection i get my a hair done are not? >> he had no idea of. your her? and vaguely recalled texting her. >> are we going? >> yes. i have to run. the next time he would return would be six months later to recover the personal effects. marty i arrived at 3:00 p.m.

sharp. with the sidebar in glasses the lawyer erred took their arms out of the ring totes any immediate started to recap the story. are you familiar with bernie madoff? there is a ponzi scheme of 50 billion. >> 50 million? >> 50 billion. was the saner telling the truth asking the same questions? new-line from family members to the top players in the country it would mean bernie madoff had the biggest financial fraud in history. and to describe in death their relationship to the parents in their lives. we have no idea. nine whatsoever we were

completely blindsided. he closed his notebook we need to report this i'm not sure how to do that berkeley avenue partner on the firm to bring him and to get his thoughts. the clock was ticking already 5:00. soon the sec offices would close. of a had to get somebody on the phone but the right person. are you both comfortable doing this? there was a clear sense he was in charge and do the right thing to do marinara give them another option. yes. let's do it. he looked at his brother. we're doing the right thing. reflecting on that moment angers said i love to say market and i were waving a flag in the year but the bottom line is weaver absolutely terrified. we knew it would send our father to jail and a feeling was awful. give me a minute.

feelings and needs crumble sinking to the ground he lashed out of a sigh that tore through the chest and guttural sound so alien he was unsure they came from him. he clenched his stomach trying not to bomb it. he wiped away the tears and stood up and cleared his throat and returned to the bare room to sat down. he said katharine a text. we're definitely not going. make the call. with instructions to share nothing with their wives they left the hotel. without exchanging a were they got into separate cabs. andrew walked in the front door of his apartment and laid on the bet. he was still wearing the noverco and shoes and super go for the next four hours he laid there numb while alive the grand across his

brain. i just turned my father and for securities fraud. i have no idea will happen with my life. every friend comment many employees at the firm, everybody i know. who knows how many others? i just turned my father's in for securities fraud. he will go to jail. he racked his brain. how could we miss something this big? nothing came other than the image of his father riding in jail. he had no idea how much time passed before catherine came into the room and sat down on the edge of the bet. and in a cent one been here brought so much joy into his life. she waited. hurt you gyrase searching him the last moment of not knowing. he could not ask your tuesday. he sat up and leaned over and turned on the life. you need to decide if you

want to stay with me. he does not remember what he said after that but when they concluded by getting under the cover she said something that would be in his memory. i am not going anywhere. wake me up if you need no be here all night. in that moment those words saved his life. he would not have to face as a loan. he said the same words back to her every night since. after celebrating their 49th year to their rage they went to the christmas party and smiled and have a lot of wine and left. beyond that she does not remember a thing. leaving was lost forever and she is no interest to get back. arizona only memory she can relate is the image of her son mark fleeing from her home. mama's boy comment golden

child calling your day from college park of the image of his back burned into her brain proposal last vision should have of her son. she would never see him again. [applause] i am happy to take questions if anybody has questions. you may ask me anything. >> >> as anybody given your boat to bernie madoff? >> that is a very good question. of course, he is serving 150 years in prison at the correctional center. andrew vowed never to speak to his father again also rules change to a number so he could not get in touch with her and we have no knowledge that we would assume he has or will because he has been very involved in anything that comes out about him. he comments. we will see a broker. >> i am pursuing an

interview with him. we will see. a magazine article. >> can you tell us any interesting things that have happened as you promote the book or people come up to you? >> that is a great question. it has been a very interesting experience. i was not sure obviously i would not put my a name on the book if i did not believe entirely in its contents but it is a book that is sympathetic to the relatives of bernie madoff. to the extent the people's lives were destroyed, there's so much anger, a betrayal, s sadness and hatred around the story that people have not been able to separate the family from bernie madoff himself.

i thought there would be a lot of outcry. there has been on the internet. i have not personally been accosted also people have had their minds changed. the 94 my book came out "60 minutes" did a piece on the book and a lot of people have their minds changed as a result of the piece and in your aunt catherine who has since started black umbrella have gotten hundreds of letters of people saying that happened to me to on a smaller scale. there has been a surprising amount of that. literally from the general public at large and the media there has been no support because people automatically assume they were involved as i had assumed until you spend time with them. >> when you were approached to write the book, what was

your initial reaction? >> it was not approached. it happened much more organically. writing about my own impostor father. she was at my new levying and wanted to spend time with me for the first couple of dinners i had with than the first thanksgiving after the scandal broke i'm estranged from my own father for similar reasons and i was not having dinner at my house and i was curious. and then with those there was a huge rift between the brothers that i go into great detail but i have no idea. after two years they're ready to tell their story story, and finally allowed

due to lawyers after that point* it was obvious it would be me but the been two years into my acquaintance ship i was not convinced of andrews in a sense and not until i sat down with him and he gave me such a detailed explanation of the way the businesses were separate, they were completely investigated by the government, fios, never indicted, the people who are in jail car awaiting trial would have every reason to turn in the brothers of their able to do to get a reduction of their own sentences and could not do so. there were many s and other factors that convinced me. >> i may be confused but is there a book coming down to be written by the fiancee? >> no. andrew madoff?

>> no. she participated extensively in this book. his fiancee is to show up at my reading in 2009 and was instrumental to give me access to the family actually. they were completely months old and not speaking to any press i was the first person they spoke to as a result with my interaction with katharine. >> i am curious did this change how you thought about year-old father? i read your other balky and what is the tie between the two? >> such a great question. i have not spoken two my

father since 2003. he has not spoken to me when i wrote the piece in "esquire" about what i found out about him that i a roach anonymously that i rode to a more graphic memoir by it is a process going through a betrayal and in the beginning i have these feelings about my mother and father by what was interesting is to watch them at the beginning of the process to see how much anger and had against his father and his mother that is starting to fade over time talking with her and hearing what she went through because andrew and his brother left and did not speak to their parents again. andrew had no contact over two years. to watch him do that the my own story into perspective

my anger toward mine father had abated i would speak to him if he wanted to speak to me, it is a process i am seven years and and andrew is at the beginning. of seven to talk to him about my experience but it takes time. any other questions? thank you very much for having me. [applause] an

>> i just want to say for the c-spany audience one minute about where we are. we are at the synagogue which was the original israel synagogue one of the oldest in washington in. sni god for a long time than doug congregation improved up at the northwest of here and became a baptist church and it was for quite a long time than they decided they would move is so they would could sell the building and

it would become a nightclub. ia immediately as a news came out, to find the best said we cannot let it become a nightclub let's make it a synagogue a dam.g they refurbished it literally to its original glory based on old photographs and we were fortunate because my oldest son who was 20 was the first boy and 50 years to have a bar midst of it from here and a first% since world war ii to use the room back and there's a that is meaningful and for all those who have brought this place back to life. you read the book about "the obamas" and refined it a very inspiring book. the administration has i guess, disagreed they have

come out with comments abouta you. what is it like to be in the middle of the fire cried? and lucky make of what is happening? >> it is a little strange because i have been covering the obama's five years. it started with the long run trying to capture the lives of the candidates especially because they are so restricted. it is so hard to get access. one of the ways we learn about them is through their biographies to go deep into their past in character will look at the whole%. the book is an outgrowth of the story which we have been doing for years and years. the whole of the book was to write about what i would call the big change. when i started covering barack and michelle obama that is what they really

were. we barack and michelle the extraordinary thing i was watching happening is watching these to regular people become president and first lady of the united states. it was not a process that move on inauguration day when somebody takes the oath but a huge learning curve made all the more dramatic and the obama story because of the fresh attitude toward political life and the first african-american president and we see a couple of things happening. to people learning to take the partnership which used to be private to turn it into a white house partnership. and michelle obama has a tough landing initially then turn it around. and then it is about the most fascinating thing i find it is his struggle with politics for after all theseafte years they cannot get over

the fact the top politicians and in the country has a complicated relationship with the business he is a denver i published it. the white house cooperated io have been working with these folks four years in thesea people in the inner circle gave me interviews. they know what they're getting into i never misrepresented what i was doing and also i facti checked with assistance before publication and republished in excerpt in the times on saturday the end to really interesting things happened. first, people started to discuss the book without reading it. that never happened before because as a newspaper reporter people read your work in the newspaper and also by the way they pushed back in interesting ways.

they really have not challenged theon reporting like iport have not got an ad call from david axelrod to say you got it wrong but something that really surprised me happened that michelle obama went on tv to say paraphrasing, i'm really tired of it and depictions of myself as the angry black woman and protested portrayals of her fighting directly with rahm emanuel. that was fascinating to me because the book definitely does not portray her in any stereotypical way and i very clear the clashes between her and rahm emanuel were philosophical and maybe i should not undercut my own reporting to talk about their differences with the political life without is what they were per call the she didn't know if she did not read the book so i have to imagine she is responding

m instead ofgeoawsh the book itself. i'm excited to be here to talk about the actual book with you.ing >> one of the themes running through the book when roosevelt went into politics they said you don't want to do that. that is the niece us. is that the attitude?h one is the qualms of the politics? been a part of the reason they are important similar to thec qualms that a lot of us have. we all see what is wrong with the political system, what is ugly about it and if they can address social needs and what not. but this is one of the things about obama that ends up being inhibiting and time

and timeti again in my reporting sometimes in complicated ways havingng trouble feeling like a politician. he is kind to everybody in has the principal objection he doesn't want to spend thed entire time lose saying he wants to hang on to a normalita life in a presidency. so i watched the idea get tested again and again. >> there is another story having dinner at every night at 6:30 p.m. that means they cannot meet with the power brokers. is that a constant theme to i preserve the domestic life? >> yes. not only wanting to preserve the domestic life the part

of the job of the situationa is barack obama debts to washington and not only does he have not so much managerial or executive secur national-security our economic experience, but's also never lived in the same house as his family full-time. the house that they will live in for the first time is the white house that is no way like a normal life.a but obviously he is willing to miss dinner for important situations and two nights per week. but i found the obama's are constantly seeking ways to limit am protect themselves from political life. >> host: why do you think he ran and if he is ambivalent about politics? >> guest: i think it was a rash decision. and add a hard decision. hiwson aides say the summer of

2006 heu was still really does missive it and they began to test the waters.th but if you think about it said decision-making processof went from december 2006 through the fall and people kept telling him is your timey is now but if you miss this window of opportunity may never get it again. michelle obama is very opposed in part she it isio right about was standing attacks from the clintons and then a decision just really weighed on her cell i find her situation is so germanic because the rate peopleec describing is she really did feel her has beenxc

would be an exceptional president but she did notea think it was the best thing for her family.r how do you choose what might be be good for the country or you? >> >> host: do you think they have those type of discussions are arguments back and forth? >> they have talked about it and also the physical white house isy almost a character. what it is like to live there and the structure and what comes without life. i will admit it is fun to report on to read in exploratory rhetoric inside the house beds they are true of very substantive things bohe so the isolation of the presidency has to imports

since the facts on our system for our limits thehe number of people who arele w willing to run for officel along with the other factors.bu the number of people so the other is saying is wee th consistent sleazy the president's get caught off and they all say will not happen to them as it happens to all of them.s >> he certainly the angus people since the sexual revolution and with the first lady is that she had a more difficult time than others being second fiddle? >> is funny because she is such a people of hillary clinton in that way. in my reporting i found it again she and everybody else had one eye

on the hillary clinton situation and the attacks that she went t through where prettyam painful for her and every by the amount heard to be that new to public life to watch yourself be a caricature that way was really, really hard. "the twist" is what hurtt h aides talked about is thed traditional job of the first lady was so confining ending at protecting her because political life is so difficult it is another way to limit to say i don't do policy or i don't have to be a part of this discussion i will not be engaged in theseth kinds of debates. there is something very

protective of the traditionalism of the role.ol of course, she now plays a much more prominent role ist ro more than she wanted in the first place. >> there are months that she displays theth almoste vulnerability that you describe where she youl what -- wears marvell shortses to gos to their in grand canyon and people made fun of them. if she felt she lives led teeing the team down. how do overplayed ofn vulnerability that alternates in the book and her fierceness? >> guest: that is what is so fascinating. part of the reason just vanished of praise angry black womanmo but was after

the brown victory. the senate seat had devastating consequences fort the legislative agenda it is all in jeopardy now and she has two issues she does not understand how they could let this happen. how they could have dropped the ball but the other issue goes a against the heart of the other goal and the presidency the issue is has an idea her husband will be a transformative president.ve should never likes politics but if you go into politics

you have a lofty vision ofea who you will be and the of ministrations and like the nebraska health care audio looked like barack obama was another ordinary politician that is what she was reacting to. that is why the partnership is so interesting. not that we delve into the secrets of their marriage but we looked at her vision of the presidency and what she stakes in two and the standards to meet them. >> host: is her influence philosophical idiological direction? to the left or not? >> i am so glad you asked that because it goes to what you have written. i think you and obama have something in commonlbddch.

[laughter] based on an my reading of your work to put your phase-in government. to be these philosophicalmesh difference is that ultimately he put stock and the legislative process. that is the political careerreer and early on this goes back in springfield toar say i don't believe the legislative process can produce the system exchange we need and our society. there are stories just look at what is happening with good legislation loaded with political garbage and thbaen interesting thing is the oldest ofsh the nine

governmental approach. to look on the partnerships and business is and thek in contrast is back because it is doing her health care reform and the fall 2009 andf having a really hard time it is not unpopular to be legislated torture and she startsld her own initiative. what did she start? the child of the city initiative and what is the end result? you would have of much healthier population and lower health care cost because you would diminish the disease like diabetes and heart disease that bog down the health care system. so she has a non governmental answer to theosynm

problem. >> host: issued a person in the middle of that when there upstairs together to say you have to keep the[l public option? does she get to that level? >> guest: hurt aides say she does not get down in the details. she is not fluid in the language of washington and policy day taos pro eight can take heart she really keeps of focused on the ran in the first place and the two issues that come up in my reporting is she backs them against political advisers by health care reform and also immigration reform. >> i was interviewing somebody in the white house and the president was leaving at that moment to go

in the helicopter in my interview was interrupted as the guy stood at the window just to watch his back for 15 seconds then to come back in finished. thatosin typifies the love affair that they just want to see him. has this low-fare changed jim? it has the process change them? >> absolutely. of the book is the story of a transformation end. lot there is a lot of political education and vault and a lot of thema becoming moreon sure in their roles and more sophisticated of the ways of washington but then part of the reason see obama's wars of interesting in 2008 is that they resist did political culture and all the reasons why there wanted to do things their own way. there was the of barack obama whioob t refuse to wear e

barrick kin flag lapel pinrd because he said in this is cheesy. not in his own words. that is barack obama. that was several versions ago. your questiono about the insular nature of the warehouse and the difference the staffhe has to them, that is an interesting questionk .e with the first lady, people in the white house and to say that people could be has sent to confront her but then people say that it is completely fine as long as you approach things in a logical way and laid them down. >> host: there is a pattern that the president is always afraid of confrontation of varying people and the first lady is not. is that the pattern that adheres here? >> guest: i do agree thatw

the history is so consistentst but it isen beginning to seem to me, there are exceptions because it is almost you cannot be president without a spouse who is willing to bell vigilant, tough, in too really watch your back to 71 of a great mystery is of media how barbara bush got the reputation of the it timely old grandmother 211l of the greatest profiles ever written and come with this sends you back but i have to give a shout out to marjorie williams. her profile of barbara bush and "vanity fair" this was late of the first administration is a great classic of political of journalism. >> host: at-large three williams has passed away but she does have to collections of books that are available b

that is definitely worth reading. she is great parts of the house on the record somen certain parts were off the record. [laughter] fantastic but continue with the theme the insularity that you mentioned. they establish the rule in 2004 when he became famous then reiterated that. >> is that it could rule? >> ribisi it benefits and harms. on the one hand they have a close nurturing group of friends, very similar backgrounds. africanba americans fromatte chicago working-class

families, the way to deleteties universities doing extremely well. and ending up near hyde park together on a one hand it iselou marvell lays leave protective function for our the descriptions of the obama's because they are different. they let their guard down and they are relaxed and loose and funny and say things they cannot say in public any more. itt does become an issue of the presidency because first of all, they do not want to talk to the president about his job. they only raise it when he does. they also havea such a perfect understanding among each other.e

they have a unique set of experiences but the new standing is a perfect they understand they could not believe the outsider could understand them but the president and first lady are n not reachingot out more in washington. one thing i found surprising than ever had the clintons to dinner. at least i couple of months ago. that is obviously a complicated relationship, but it does speak to a fairly and perverted approach to the presidency. >> host: what is the relationship between barack obama and hillary clinton? you mentioned at the 50th birthday party is said it had become icknr h warmer.?

from what? [laughter] >> guest: the way people describe the relationship is to professionals on their best behavior. but there is a sense that there is the relationshipa between barack obama andl bill clinton that especially if you talk about especially the objections to politics with the objections of clinton that starting back in the '90s. in chicago, he is a critic of clinton and his ways and of doing things. that is part of the reason of the relationship of rahm emanuel it is tempting to describe it as the two totally different guys that work well together but then had some real complexities

to theirr relationship but part of it is emanuel was trained and the white housero of clinton and how he does a business and that isnd not how barack obama does business. >> host: day do you ever see somebody who served growth and say who is smarter? i can tell you what they think. [laughter] what about valerie jarrett? >> guest: her role is complicated and fascinating. valerie jarrett is an old friend of the obama's from chicago. she is their mentor and really helped them to get started politically in chicago and in a way made a transition because she goes from real-estate in chicago, she did have some city government experience to being a senior aide in the white house.

this theme of the book islic what is public and what is private in the presidency, dollar sign jarret is a great, herres role, captures how complicated it is. on the mind and she is a senior adviser in the westenh wing and has a portfolio of rome and then one of the president and first lady's closest friends. . .for matters of race. this is true in the campaign and the white house she is kind of a newcomer to the national politics and came from a very different perspective. and the -- in my reporting as was seen, the tremendous -- it's funny because some people in washington talk about her as a

kind of hang iran and i don't see see her that way because she's given the president and first lady so much i think that she would run in front of a truck for them and she almost seems necessary to this transition that they are going through. i mean, from 2004 to 2008 and they have the daily decisions are almost more than two people can deal with and she's helping them transition. but at the same time, and the west wing she is constantly under suspicion because she is such a close friend and people are afraid she is reporting back to the obamas and say she doesn't, but it's not clear where she is in the system and the fee might think about her story is important to remember is the president chose to bring her there. so there's this intense follow-up with robert gibbs and

she's frustrated at michelle obama and leader says he misdirected his rage and it's really at valerie, but i think part of the real significance of that story is that the president thought that he could have a very long traditional management structure. only a traditional and unconditional management structure, but brought his best friend sort of into the equation and that becomes complicated for all of them. >> you mentioned how indolent they are and maybe valerie jarrett is coming to that. some of them are complete political creatures to get do you think that there is an invisible wall or is their attention or ambivalence between the ambivalent political creatures and the political animals that they have hired to just do the job? >> why guess part of the answer to me is the change you also written about which is after the midterm elections we suddenly see this white house become so

much more overtly political. not that they've ever not been political. we don't want to be naive about it, but the president who early in the presidency wants to be authentic and do things and has this kind of provision for how it's great to be different from other presidents it is a much more powerful politician. we talk about the super bowl party where he doesn't want to schmooze but by the spring of 2010 believe me, he is no water watching the game during these kind of sporting events and even the teams he roots for changes the first super bowl after the white house pittsburgh, the pittsburgh steelers were playing and he always loved the steelers because of all those great

stories about the steelers and from the 70's and the family that owns the steelers campaigned for him in pennsylvania and it's a point of pride for him that he's a real sports fan and he's not going to sign the neutrality. and then we see two years later in the white house after he is beaten up in the midterm that totally changes. he says he's going to remain neutral in the super bowl. and you know, this kind of the game and a loss because of the one hand you see that he is -- he understands this is what it means to be president if you don't want to trash somebody in the football team and then on the other hand there is something very appealing about the old barack obama who doesn't want to get himself over entirely to this. >> there were a bunch of us sitting with senior administration officials and obama, what he does is comes in in the middle sort of as a

surprise as a routine how it's not a surprise. we are having this very high minded discussion about some policy and he comes in like he is going to just kick some ass. [laughter] he's a very competitive -- a very competitive person i've met you give one thing and to ask about is he's also one of the most confident people. i think that i've ever met and my joke is that the word obama will be the measure of unit for self-confidence. [laughter] his obama is 125. [laughter] do you think that that has maintained or do you observe the same thing. >> part of the change we've seen is that there are moments pretty recently, right, where that confidence seems to diminish. i'm thinking of the debt limit crisis and there's some insight reporting in the book about this kind of sunk the president was

in but you saw it on tv. he said these press conferences and he is just so incredibly frustrated with what's happening. and in the meetings he did, you know, he said he was upset about what had happened with the triumph of the tea party and also about -- i think things have changed now but over the summer i think it was really hard for him to deal with the loss of support from 2008 and beginning a campaign that felt so very different and they did say that he seemed kind of sad and he felt really misunderstood. i think part of the question for 2012 that we are all watching is can you sort of a similar to this and rebuilt the of original vision for what the obama presidency was supposed to be is gone now and he has to come up with a kind of affirmative

vision of where he wants to take the country but still is realistic enough to be persuasive. >> uzi process skycam crimber when you started but to see the process of that happening? >> i definitely think that the whole "weekend rate strategy," has restored the white house and also telling a much more coherent story than they were especially economically and was clear that they were by the confusion on the republican field and they're beating up romney behind the scenes seems to have contributed to me if you have heard really articulate why he wants another four years in a way that's truly stirring and

convincing. >> they are thinking about it. [laughter] but i agree with almost point punditry and that is almost complement at the end on this subject. i don't think that they achieved a message that the have and as you write in the book they can't do that again. >> a couple of other subjects one remarkable one is anyone who has any contact with other kids their tremendous kids are untouched by all of this house -- how have they done that? >> well, i think that the sheer force of michele obama's protective power does have a lot to do with it. she was always intensely committed to motherhood and an intense mother.

this was a mom who was like sitting in the soccer stands with a blockade. this is a mom that stood on the sideline and said this is what is going on with the defensive footwork. we are talking abut -- just remember almost everybody who runs for president and their spouses, these people are much more competitive than the rest of us generally, and i think that she's always been a pretty intense mom. but then - when they run the senate campaign and also the presidency, she put the full force on her conviction and personality into making sure their lives for structured and normal and this is where she comes in, her mother mary ann

robinson has refused every media request, obra wanted to have her on and she said no i like being able to anonymously go to the basement on connecticut avenue north of the white house. everybody there thinks another lady who works in the mansion. everybody thinks i housekeeper and she is the first lady's mom and what i found in my reporting is that in a way she has to do that because she is the ticket to freedom. their parents can't take them to get a cup cake in georgetown after school and she's the person who can do that. >> that's highly disclosed.

>> one of the themes running through the story is what shrink-wrap -- luxury whether she should appear on the cover of vogue if there is a story that tells where she's at a soup kitchen handing out things and wearing $500 sneakers from france who buys $500 sneakers, what is that about? does she have a genuine taste for luxury or is it just something that's fun? >> she says a couple of things. what she said to me in chicago when her husband was starting to become famous and she was starting to come to washington she would basically say if i have to go i'm getting a new dress out of it. and, you know, so i think it is a contents of your pleasure if she is to do this this is one of the fun parts.

she has said it looking good gives me confidence to go out in public life and also she is so aware of the power and image in a way that i'm not even sure her husband is and she is highly attuned to both the pressures and the possibilities of being the first african american first lady. what she's up against it so big when she has image problems in the 2008 campaign and she was being caricatured as an angry black woman, the advisers did do able image makeover on her and the way that one of them described it to the leader is they had we are going to make her more like a mom on the cause the show and that line really struck me because i said to myself with a second in this country are we so low on positives, warm and loving

accomplished images of african-american women we have so few famous africans who are not either like sports or entertainment celebrities that they have to haul mrs. cosby who is a fictional character and hasn't been on television for 25 years or something like this is the model they have to turn to. but, so anyway the story is really about her wanting to represent in her younger girls to see an african american woman on the cover of vogue. the fascinating thing is that robert not specifically but with other areas like that he gets so concerned about that because he saw the public resentment about the economy and about bonuses and he really became concerned about the image of luxury. >> to more topics and then this is equally shallow but this is something i've really always

wondered about and you get as close to anybody as i have read and this is about barack obama's actual basketball of devotees. [laughter] you describe it the 49th birthday where he invites light of these nba stars. i'm going to tell your story because i love it so much. they are on different teams the combination of the pro athletes and hangers on and love ron james is on the third saying i'm on the team? who is on a and b. he allegedly -- barack obama allegedly once these people to play as hard as they can. can he keep up at that level a 50-year-old guy? >> she wins the entire tournament. >> that's not an answer. >> it goes -- remember the story that he told a couple of minutes ago about the time you were in the white house and the guy stood by the president for 15

seconds because he took the proximity it's the same issue because our people treating the president like a normal human being, can anybody just forget that he was president and in that a birthday party i asked michael to help organize the game and i said well, you know, what is the deal with him when in this entire thing because we know that he is a good basketball player. come on, lubber on -- lebron james. it's the president's birthday, nobody is placing that much defense on him etc., etc.. >> the story where john edwards when he was running may be the first time he was from north carolina obviously, and they won the national championship one year and next year the point guard for the team played him one on one and they told me, you know, i beat him. [laughter] >> no, you didn't come and you

did not beat that guy. edwards actually believed him. that always concerned me. and that is the segue into the sort of final subject which is a summation which is really about the people who are in this circumstance and i want to start with edwards because i think that you and i met on a bus on john edwards bus with elizabeth and their two kids you are doing a similar story to visited the was a case that was weird about that episode and i guess it was the second time you ran it is the parents disappeared in the middle of the day and the kids were sort of left. i remember i went bowling with them. so here is the case where you would say that the marriage was all about the public. and maybe you disagree. this seems to me this is what they are trying not to be. and so if you would just have

some thoughts and then we will go to the questions on the floor on the soul of people under the brutality of politics, the publicity, the false universal love. do you think their spiritual lives are still healthy, is there any religion and the spiritual lives we should ask in this room, how do you evaluate that? >> that's a great question because, you know, religion, like marriage, is something that it's become kind of a contest about whether it is the private or public thing for them. when barack obama first ran for president he really put his religionocity out there. in june of 2006 she's making this call to renewals speech telling people he is going to be the democrat who can win over the evangelicals. how is he going to do that? he is going to write this book and he's going to title it after sermon by his pastor named jeremiah wright. and we all know what happened, you know, how that story ends

and so religion is after the jeremiah wright affair, something that they try to kick back into the private sphere. something they discuss a little bit now but not that much and you know they don't want to showcase the washington church that they are going to join. a white house aide said something that really stayed with me. and what he said was once you put some part of your personal life like the religionocity out there for people come and what he meant is when you kind of market it a little bit politically can you ever really to get back? can you ever really truly put it back into the private sphere and what is interesting now that is happening with the marriage is that they are really putting it out in the public because the president's personal ratings are much higher than his ratings on

the handling of the economy, and one of the things that his advisers are resting 2012 on is the appeal of the union and they've learned how to go out there together and do this kind of public political performance together that has an authenticity but is also designed. use of a meeting in the oval office where they discuss it is designed to earn votes. so i think -- i don't know that i could answer it definitively for them but you are asking i think exactly the right question, which is can something be shared with the world so used for political gain and then can you take it back and make it entirely private again? >> if i could add since i amana opinion writer i personally think that is in the apparel and the second thing i would say is

when dwight eisenhower -- >> what is carol? >> putting out to survive on that subject when what happens when they surrender. final thing i will say is one of the -- when the white eisenhower in his last day in office he was asked do you think the press corps has been fair to you and dwight eisenhower says i don't think that there's anything any reporter could do to hurt me and that is absolutely the right attitude. i'm not sure that this is the first president to search the web at night with blogs and the reaction to this book i'm not sure that is the attitude they have taken but certainly one they should take that's quite an ad miring and complicated portrayal. let's go to the floor and if anybody wants to go to the microphones in the aisle. >> how are you? >> i am great. >> i have a quick question for you. what do you think that michelle

will allow barack to do after the presidency? >> that is a fantastic question and i think a real source of suspense because as she has discussed and there is more reporting in the book equal the has been an issue in the marriage. the best question i've ever asked by far as i said to them in the oval office and me and my colleague the help me write this question and says how is it possible to have an equal marriage when one person as president and you can go read the answer in "the new york times" magazine but basically the president couldn't answer the question and he ended up saying my advisers care a lot more what she thinks than what i think. so, you know, i think that there is a real question especially since -- you know, this is the clinton history, too, that bill clinton after his presidency decided that it was hillary

clinton's term. i don't think michelle obama will lever run for public office and my record says if she ever runs for public office i'm going to eat every page of this book. but i do wonder whether in some sense it will be her turn to decide on the next step in their future. >> i reminded of one story in the bush administration at the buckingham palace george w. bush was bored and wanted to sneak around the palace just to check it out. [laughter] and he said i want to sneak this around and laura said don't you dare to move. so he has to decide to while away the president or the first lady? [laughter] >> i was wondering if you could talk more about barack obama's relationship with a rahm emanuel and how that affects his presidency and now starting off the third chief of staff as the inability to find a chief of

staff that may be able to relate in the ability to accomplish things. >> i'm glad you asked in part because i think david house probably his own perspective on this issue and would be sort of we haven't really talked about it but it would be interesting to contrast. so what i would say is that the partnership was always strategic from the beginning. there was never any pretense that these men were exactly alike or had the same philosophies, but the president had a really ambitious legislative agenda and chose an annual in order to pass it. so since the first couple of months -- for the first nearly may be seen nine months of the presidency when the legislation is really moving ahead, you know, it works pretty well. there are some managerial problems rahm emanuel has pitted he can be quite abusive and

there and that's -- that has a real effect in the white house. a lot of the white house aides told me that there were things they just didn't come to him on because they were worried he would blow up on him so it had a kind of inhibiting effect is a manager. also in fairness there wasn't a clear management structure where everybody reported exactly to him and then up words, the real stress comes around the time scott brown wins that seat because even though they squeezed health care through, the obama presidency becomes less like this for word legislative tried and it becomes something else. and at the same time of the midterm elections are coming up and that is putting tremendous stress on the relationship because he had in the chair and, you know, his life's mission before he became the chief of staff was getting democrats in congress especially in these really kind of competitive

districts and keeping these people in congress and yet, you know, in the presidency you kind of have a different agenda. you have to make members of congress take really hard votes. so for example, i mentioned immigration of the subject. one of the really sore subjects between them, the president really wanted to push for immigration reform even though there was no legislation on the table, and that was a really big problem for emanu-el in the summer of 2010 because he was ed acutely feeling these vulnerable democrats, you know, especially in the border states and so the relationship did eventually become quite complicated and strained. david axelrod even by the summer of 2010 fell to that he should leave. interestingly once emanuel started to run for the mayor of chicago the relationship improved. it was almost like the burdens and the strains of the relationship lifted somewhat.

>> i would add our nightmare of having the non-jewish chief of staff is over. [laughter] >> given the setting i'm going to start with a confession i haven't read your book yet. >> we are thrilled to have you here. >> i think to comment on something i've read or heard and that is that you did not interview barack and michelle. >> like every journalist, for every story -- >> is that true? >> absolutely. i interviewed them a bunch of times over the course of writing about them and i had a big interview with them in 2009 and when i started this project leader did with my publisher that i didn't know exactly how much access we were going to get and i pushed for interviews throughout, and they even jolie

said no. about what i really found in the reporting is that their friends were able to tell all kinds of stories the president and first lady just doesn't tell. if you have seen the way that michelle obama gives interviews yesterday was an exception. usually the she does a very limited interview on a subject like childhood obesity for 20 minutes at a time etc., etc., and one thing i feel, i basically write profiles for a living at times and one thing i do believe in very strongly is that you can't practice access journalism meaning you can't let whether or not somebody will talk to you govern whether or not you are going to write about them because none of these candidates for these leaders really want to talk to journalists that much. fewer of them are getting interviewed and they are giving interviews that are less and less in debt than they used to be. so you can't put the question of whether or not somebody will sit

down with you for 20 minutes control the entire story. >> i know you touched on this earlier about how you were surprised on the white house reaction, and, you know, i saw you on the today show and you said they hadn't really disputed any of the facts and since then especially with a halloween party they didn't try to cover it up in that they point to all the media coverage of the party and what not response to that? >> the halloween party situation and the "washington post" act and the degree story about this a day or two ago that was entirely correct. just to give everybody the context, this is in the fall of 2009 it was the first halloween in the white house, and so there was an outside component to the party that was pretty public.

it was about a washington area school kids who were trigger trading and the president and first lady were there and there was a court reporter. the thing they kept pretty quiet was the party in sight of the white house, and it was a pretty splashing party. they had tim burton and johnny depp. they were doing their alice-in-wonderland thing and it wasn't -- i think this is an area where the coverage in a way has been distorted because "the new york post" made it seem as if it was this, you know, backing off the kids or something and they were trying to a pretty nice thing like a lot of the kids who were invited for kids of people serving in the military, but the white house was very nervous about anything that was seen as sort of too hollywood or flashy so they kept the inside of the party very quiet. they didn't distribute photos. they didn't acknowledge the contributions. >> but i thin h