paid at that we will turn to the united states and say who was sentenced in 2011, who committed the crime earlier in 2011 seack wt you ca surfaced in -- new cases surfaced in 2011. we are going to look at a couple of cases that took place in europe which have been very interesting. then we will turn to the great spy wars going on in asia, and remarkable i have tried to be selective around the world. why listen to this lecture? espionage "trial, collecting intelligence covertly is still happening.

it is a timeless reality and it has been going on and it will go on regardless of international relations. internationally, espionage is viewed as a political crime and as a result, it is a non- extraditable no nation will extradite you back for that particular crime. partly because espionage is used by some regimes as a way to suppress people. it is not used like we do in the united states. it is often used by nations as an excuse to suppress political dissent. we see that going on right now. it has the potential for major international security implications when one of these cases services. my experience has been that often it is discounted by some, many in the media, look at it as unimportant as it relates to world events. you can take courses in international relations and world events and i look at what

is the role of intelligence and counterintelligence and espionage and often is forgotten your. have learned happy history. if you learn real history, you realize that over and over again, intelligence and loss of information or the acquisition of information has been the defining factor in world events. espionage is not an unimportant factor. it is huge. this has not been a good year for some intelligence agencies around the world. who has fallen on hard times? we must first look at libya. it did not go so well for the head of their intelligence service. after libya fell, he and the one surviving son of moammar khaddafi were captured in the southwest corner of libya. the sun was captured and he will go on trial but the chief of

intelligence has fallen from view. he was captured in november of this year and he is reported to be held in a secret location. have been no photographs of him and no reports of him since he was arrested on november 20 and there is speculation as to what has happened to him. that would be simply to watch because it may not go well for him. i don't think he was loved by the new regime ver. we look at egypt. as you may recall, the head of their intelligence service, he specialized in torture and other things listed there. i was in egypt when it fell. i arrived on the 24th and the revolution started on the 25th and i had to escape in a flight

that took us out thatluxor and into aman and then into israel. it was a story unto itself it was not a safe place when it had to get out on the 30th. what is going to happen is yet to be determined in egypt. the chief of intelligence when mubarak resigned, he took over the presidency and he announced the resignation and he fell from view. he withdrew from the political scene. he was not seen again but after he left in february until he appeared in court in september of 2011. he testified against mubarak. one thing he said is mubarak can never say he did not know

what is going on. he has not been arrested. he has not been prosecuted. what will happen to him as this unfolds in agent is yet to be seen. he has tried to maintain a low profile so he fell from power. syria, the director general is still in power. the united states has tried to make it as difficult as they can for the director of the syrian intelligence service may be because of the oppression that is been taking place there. his assets were frozen as for the assets of the syrian general intelligence service. his personal assets were frozen, the intelligence service as of four frozen and so were those of the brother of the president who was a brigadier general. that is how we responded. it appears he is still in power reported, the head of their intelligence service, and we will see what transpires in

syria depending on what will happen this year. south africa is where most people don't watch but it is an interesting turn of events. the head of their service was called the south african minister for state security and runs the three major intelligence services. he got very upset in september of 2011 and fire that had of their intelligence service because he said he did not provide protection for my wife was under investigation for drug smuggling. his wife was convicted of drugs -- drug smuggling. the results of that is that the three officials objected to providing secret service protection for his wife during her trial in may of 2011. she was convicted and he is still in power, by the way, as

is the government there. it appears the real conflict and not have been as much as it relates to the wife of ahead of their intelligence service as it was that the president wanted the intelligence services to begin on authorized operations on cabinet ministers. that means it looks like they're trying to devote their entire book is -- intelligence service for political reasons. they said they would not do that and as a result, he fired. ahead is close to the president of south never go who still holds power. if you'd better -- if you take on the king, you better win. the chief of the national

intelligence agency of south herica is domestic counterintelligence service. that would be like the fbi here in the united states the united states. it would be like mi5 would be like in england. c they are ci service and the first one to resign was in october. this started in september and he resigned in october of 2011. he was probably forced to resign because the guy wanted to fire him. that had of their state security agency responsible for civilian intelligence operations was forced to retire in december of this year. he was forced to resign in december and it looks like he was paid off or there was money that was exchanged for him to leave office. that took place just last month in december and ahead of their for intelligence service which is an organization of about 7000

people, the equivalent of their cia or mi6, for the south africans -- he has resigned and resigned this year and he is being replaced by a person who is not an intelligence professional. south african intelligence services have fallen on hard times. something recently happened in russia that you may or may not have been aware of. it took place during the christmas holiday. the head of the gru who was there from 2009-2011, which is a short period of time to be the chief of the gru, he resigned on christmas eve. there is a lot of controversy as to whether he resigned because it was time for him to retire which is what you say international or he was forced to.

he leaves christmas eve and he leaves the gru -- for years, those of us heard about the co of the gru. they describe it to the senate looks like a bad man signal. makkah -- batman symbol. it is batman. they say we control the night. they talked about the new model. he left and the new chief was appointed a day after christmas and i have the brand new facility that they opened up in moscow. you are looking at two symbols of the gru. the one on the right it was there until 2009 and the other one is an exploding bomb.

reportedly, this came out of the russian media that it is the largest intelligence service. we know that they fsb svr have 4000 intelligence officers and the have half the population that had during the cold war. the population of the soviet union was 296 million people when they were collapsing. in 2011, the population has dropped about 140,000 russians which is half the population -- 140 million russians which is half the population.

that is a 20% drop in the size of the service. they talk about the fact that they gru has more people overseas doing for intelligence. it is a spy organization. it does not have a domestic mission. the russians said there was six times as many as the fsb and the svr. it was never touched by the collapse of the soviet union. it has continued on. there has been some changes in intelligence services this year. espionage, acquiring

information, is a time as reality. at the international spy museum we talk about the school for spies. i used to teach a course on the secret history of history. sliverust looking at a as we go perot this review of 2011. the development of legal tools in the united states is what we struggle with. when someone is arrested in the united states, an awful lot of ever goes into it. it is never used in a political standpoint. thereclosed society, are controls that are bigger than the crime of espionage. in the united states, we have

many controls because repair a police state or counterintelligence state. it can always tell the power of a society by looking at how they come to power. if you look at a nation state and you ask if they were granted power by the people, the government does not fear the people. our government is granted power by the people in the united states. in other societies, they fear the people because they use airpower from the people and therefore they have very, very large intelligence organizations and usually there counterintelligence service is bigger than their intelligence service. counterintelligence states are china, russia, north korea because they usurped the power from the people. there's always a balance between civil liberties and a collection

strategies used to deal with that. i like to say is all about values. i love this quote -- i take exception to his view of that. however, it is a tongue-in-cheek way -- fear spy with sometimes catchers. no al we but there really are and they say with an iron

grip and no tolerance for dissent. taking command, the new president appoints his cousin as vice president, saddam hussein. >> nobody took him seriously. you are surprised to see this young civilian standing next to the general who led the coup. saddam is head of the mukhabarat, the secret police.

he stassen with loyal members of his drug and launches a systematic campaign of terror designed to limit the opposition and intimidate the population. >> he created a second layer of government. in every single ministry, there is a desk that reported directly to saddam hussein. >> [spaeking farsi] >> all the security personnel were his people. the money he gave them and the cars and prestige and power.

people had never had any of that. >> in early january of 1969, a scene starke reminiscent of nazi germany, saddam her as a public event to demonstrate the policies of the new regime. thousands court part -- thousands graduated in liberation square. >> that is the point -- condemned the spies. you want to say there is an external enemy, you said despise the the problem therefore i have to suppress and implement certain policies. you see that around the world in a variety of counter intelligence states using has been us as an excuse to suppress dissidents and establish power. some of us may not know that saddam hussein was the head of

their counterintelligence effort. he was falsely accusing people of being spies. we don't have to go very far in history to see that happening today. we look of a powder keg of american intelligence and we look at the cases that surfaced on december 15 is the young man from arizona whose family lives in michigan whose father is a college professor who was working for a company that did contract work for the u.s. marine corps, was visiting his grandmother in august-september of this year and he had dual citizenship and went back to visit his grandmother but dual citizenship is not recognized by iran. soon after arriving, within three weeks he was arrested. he fell from view in the fall and on the december 15, confesseds a individual saying he was a cia operative.

that took place on december 15. you have probably been watching this in the news. >> a man was accused of trying to infiltrate iran for the cia. the prosecutors said he entered to the department three times. but he could be punished with the death penalty on a military bases. he repeated a confession on state tv on december 80. his lawyer rejected the accusation. new dates for the next court hearing were not released. >> the story appears that he

volunteered to the military intelligence, volunteered at least three times, was arrested and they said they had observed them in afghanistan and day observed of having contact with americans which he did that because it was a contract for the military, arrested, and he confessed. to our great surprise on january 9, he was sentenced to death and had 20 days to appeal. this is ongoing today. this is a perfect sample of administration, a regime, that is using this issue to crack down on this individual. what is interesting is that he had dual citizenship and went back there and went back there at a time when iran is concerned about people coming into iran because they have had a series of assassinations like the one that took place today in iran.

he walked into this situation and now he faces the death penalty barry just after the, the white house made a statement where they said is not connect with american intelligence. and that is not always done around the world would someone who was arrested. this will be a big issue for us. there's very little i think we can do about this. watch that one very carefully. we were talking about spying but this is a terrorism case. it relates to iran and it has to do with the plot to kill the saudi arabian ambassador here in washington, d.c. using a cousin

of the kudzforce. they have huge power in iran. some people say it does not make sense we teach a 10-day course on the iranian culture and the iranian intelligence service. they are a very important national security issue. they like to use family. it makes all the sense in the world that a member of their intelligence service would reject a cousin down in texas who happens to be a car dealer and sacred to find someone in a mexican cartels to conduct an assassination in washington. if that had been successful, which they were not, because there were attached to a dea

informant, if they had been successful, you can imagine what would have happened if there had been a bombing or an assassination here in washington with the saudi ambassador. we would start an investigation and would track and back to mexico and no one would have said that the iranians did that. the iranians are very careful to protect themselves. they never claimed responsibility for kobar towers. they had been at war with this since 1979. are we going to war, from and that iranian standpoint they already are. this makes all the sense in the world and it will be interesting to watch it unfold. it is remarkable that we were surprised by it. it was very north korean-like but it is also iranian-allied. how big is the terrorism threat? students tosk my stay as county people have been arrested in the united states for terrorist-related plotzed

cents 9/11 derie. we track that every single day. we have a case page every single day when a new case breaks. we have an understanding of how big this problem is. if you were to say how many plots have been uncovered and how many people have been arrested and you ask yourself what that number is, how many would come up with the right number? the right number is at least one-third 19 people who have been charged with terrorist- related crime since 9/11 very the blue line is number of plots and the bread line is the number of individuals. about 50% of the plots are singular and the other 50 percent are multiple-people plus. the average number in a plot have been about five over the 119 + that we looked at. the average is five.

or don't find large networks five -- or five networks of five people to do it. we just had two arrests this week and terrorism. as the most recent information on how big the terrorism issue has been. when you hear that in 2011, which just found out about homegrown terrorism, but it attracted which we have been doing: a look at the numbers. we have the cases and the legal documents and everyone of these cases. we are always surprised we see some statements made about terrorism. treachery is no more rare than we thought it would be. it is not as rare as we think it is. we run a red little red schoolhouse and the training and try to track this. we had our first case 501 which

is a fire-day course. since that time, we have had 54 different courses in all sorts of different areas. we had to come up with a mechanism to make our case is relevant to we did speak with some authority on was happening. we started collecting this information. for the last 15 years. some of you may have taken our course. we can now give credit to that course. that goes back to 1995.

let's talk about as big a t,he law. people talk abo espionage and he saw that play out in june of that pyed ou 2010 2010, when we have the 10 russian illegals who are arrested in the united states and all the editorial pundits to ask why they ever did not arrest these people are as big guys? the did not understand a lot less because it is. this was a great collection capability case. it was long-term operations which intelligence services run to have one man as an illegal since 1976 deployed to penetrate the united states. >> we want an attorney barry i have a right to an attorney.

. but they knew our legal system. this is annoying. this is what we found out. we're talking with emily. are you going to college? >> yes. >> what will you major in? >> i don't know. i will decide soon. i tried to avoid the question. >> young people get in trouble with law and everybody knows their rights. what does it mean to pass the bar? >> like lawyers. my brother-in-law is taking in now. > you have to pass set to go to law school.

nick.ere to nui skin what do you know about your rights? have you ever been arrested? >> for a dui. >> was perjury? >> when u.s. stewart -- you had been triggered what did you say? >> i said yes. >> how many beers to do telecopier add them up two or three. how many does really have? 12 or 30 a. what does it mean to perjure oneself? >> perjure? i don't know like for what? -- like throw up? >> i am studying business.

>> what does it mean if you are a big domestic? >> -- a bigamist. is that a wedding ring? why is it not on your finger? i'm a basketball official in cannot wear jewelry. >> what is bigamy. >> that is when you have more than one wife. >> what is the penalty? >> getting popped by the other white. >> you have to have a sense of humor about the law. what is as the knowledge? it is a very specific crime. it is always different every country. it does that have to be the same definition. we have a sense that we're talking about the traders and people acquiring information covertly that they are not supposed to have bought from a legal standpoint it is a specific thing.

in the united states and other societies, there is great expectation when an espionage case services. it is usually on the front page and what happens there is an expectation for the media that they have to show something. we used to refer to as the super bowl prosecution. we set up a program just to conduct the as denies interview because it is a crime to void ab is because there it should be no evidence that took place. you still build cases of espionage. this has been forgotten by many commentators about the russian illegals, in the united states, does it require the passage of classified information? what is the law that authorizes the united states to classified information? there is no law. a secret service

act like great britain. can you classify the information? next on your a claque -- cocktail party estimates that. authority is invested in the president of united states. in the constitution, he is the chief diplomat and chief war fighter. he conducts all foreign affairs as the commander in chief. endeavor to be the chief diplomat, the president can withhold strict information from people. when we pay taxes, we by the information supplied by the intelligence community. to protect the citizenry, they prevent us from seeing it. the president protected so that as the authority -- so that is the authority. when we say something is classified, i used to say it means no fair telling gar.

p.s. denies -- the espionage law does not speak of classified information. there are two laws, little has been nice and big and espionage. little has been lost is for people who should not receive information. the people taken into mission and retested and is prepared to pass it on. it is a lesser offense. almost everybody who has been convicted of espionage is also charged with this crime. that is little as denies. paige: espionage does unauthorized transmittal of national defense information to a foreign nation or power or political faction with intent to aid that foreign power against

the united states. to give you an example of law, law says you have to have authorized transmittal of national defense information to an individual not authorized to receive it. there's a case that took place the 1940's3 heimie had a huge impact in espionage. he was a german who had emigrated to the united states. they instructed him to go to the library in new york and obtained information on production, national defense information. he obtained technical books and rode up and passed it on. that was uncovered by the fbi. he was arrested in june, 1941 and charged with espionage. he was found guilty of

espionage and foreign agents registration act and appealed. he was passing national defense information was getting from the public library. he was determined not to be guilty of espionage because the interpretation of law that you had to have national defense information that is protected. that is the nature of the information you have to protect for espionage. big espionage, is unauthorized transmittal of national defense information that is protected. that is the legal standard to a foreign power or agent with intent to injure the united states or eight a foreign power or political faction. when i say somebody is charged with 794, you can go to jail for the rest of your life. you can be executed. lyall espionage you could get 10

years. little as be a notch -- little espionage you can only get 10 years. people who are arrested are often charged with both. in a federal prosecution, who decides if it is protecting national defense information? that is a decision made by the jury, not the judge. most people in and give us are charged with conspiracy. conspiracy is not a crime by itself. it is conspiracy to commit espionage. when two or may people or more people decide to conduct these functions, that is conspiracy. most people are charged with espionage, conspiracy to commit espionage because the most difficult thing to prove as the transmittal of information.

in espionage statute, the unauthorized transmittal is the most of the building to peru. on whatever was charged with conspiracy. we track everyone of these cases and we put legal documents and to them. you'll find often that we use the crime a fara. it is foreign agents registration act passed in 1938. it says if you are an agent for a foreign power like a lawyer or an advertiser or do anything for

a foreign power, you have to go down to the department of justice within 10 days and register. if you don't do it, you go to jail for 10 years. most people who are spies, will not go down to the department of justice and say i have been recruited as a spy for such and such intelligence service. if i find out you are an agent of a foreign power and you have not gone to the department of justice, you'll go jail for 10 years. as a great loss. that was used for the russian illegals. there were agents of a foreign power and that is why all of pl themed 10 years. there's another great little used in the espionage world and it is called section 101. if a law enforcement officer --

you cannot lie to me. if you like to me, you go to jail for five years for every live. if i go to in bridge to interview anybody and start the interview and lied to me, i would say stop. you just committed a felony and could go to jail for five years so let's start all over again. you don't want to lie to me. if you like to a federal officer, for every like, you get five years. in spite cases, they almost never confessed. a chart 1 in with001. it is a gridlock. -- it is a great loss. don't ever lied to a federal officer. each line is five years. let me tell aboutspyepedia.

we'll update this every single day. the man who runs this is sitting here. he does this every day. he has a staff of masters people to update this information every single day. everything i am about to tell you comes from spyapedia. 1945-2011, the past 66 years, the cases i want to show your based on foreign nationals who were arrested and espionage- related crimes. if i start looking at those questions about how damaging espionage has been and who is the most damaging spy, i like to say there are 10 people -- 20 people in my top-10 list and that is as funny as i get.

to make people want to get on the list of spies. b believeob hansen is the most damaging spy in our history. they represent different genders and ethnicities. everyone is an individual who chose to become a betrayal. the department of defense in a steady, but the list of 173. if i ask you how many people have been arrested since 1945 through today, the answer is 423 people. the average is 6.23 per year. you have to look at these cases two ways -- any case related to espionage you have to say this -- is this a be troyer case or a collector case? the russian a legal case or collectors. they did not pass information.

did not have security clearance. collectors made and communicate with agents that agents are the betrayers and agents provide the secrets and collectors receive the secret. you have to figure out what you are looking at. huckabee traders feel the secrets and pass the secrets and have no protection ve. when you look at a case, you have to say what you are looking at, a.b. troyer case or a collector case and you get different answers. 8 b troyer a b --etrayer case are a collector case. we're having a flood of as benign as cases in the united states. it is as if it is happening below are conscious level. if we look at economic espionage cases, there have been one of the 25 people at least to have

been arrested for economic espionage. the trend line is going up. we see more and more of those cases targeting the private sector. some of that this last year turned out to the investment information current there are two cases which are very interesting and new. in the last four years, 94 people have been arrested for espionage-related crimes. that means 22.2% of all the arrests in the last 66 years have taken place the last four years. we have an explosion. we see a far more aggressive chinese collection activity and we have more people working in

counterintelligence that we did before. how many countries have been involved? in 1992, the federal government counterintelligence program changed its strategy. it went from looking only at people who are enemies of america to anybody who collected against us. there are at least 31 countries who have been identified as being involved with recruiting somebody who was trying to be traded the access they had. here's what the numbers look like. the top numbers are russia and the ussr. some of those come back from the old days during the cold war. we have 341 cases of agents were

in for a foreign entity. he did the government does not identify who the collector was for a collector had not been identified by the time the person is arrested. someone might decide this by and they haven't decided to forwhom. the look of the numbers and it says it has been scattered around it is true to say that china has been coming up fast on the outside. it has been a 2001 phenomenon. the first chinese arrest was made in 1985. since then, the numbers have exploded. the vast majority of these are taking place in the private sector. if you look at every single one

of the cases in the last five years, every single one of these cases have been digital theft. even though we live in a digital age, espionage continues as it did before. in the past, someone may have taken a document and copied it. today, they visually get the document. in every case, the insider -- if you look at the problem of collection against this, you have to look like a fourth. fort. and they tried to get inside your system. if you set up a good security system, you can deal with that kind of the external attack against you. we tracked the in thespyapedia. we track the cyber attacks. we keep a good track of those

cases. that is half the problem. a lot of that is going on. then you have the other problem and that is the spy on the inside. they don't have to get through the firewall. those individuals to acquire the information get it out either em byail or the have and an external hard drive and copy it. it is simple if you have the right system to detect those two things. some organizations are doing a great job in their commitment to understand the insider threat a lot of discussion today is about the insider threat. there is nothing new about that. it is just using a different media. these are looking a chinese cases, there have been 67 age p of therc arrested -- there of about 67 of the prc arrested

since 1985. russia is in red and the cases are in blue and the prc is in green. if we say what is the employment status of the individuals who were arrested, you can see they're coming out of the private sector because of economic cases and foreign nationals and then we start going down to navy, army, contractors. the navy has an aggressive counterespionage programs, one of the best ones and the government. they have a serious commitment to catching spies. they have more than any other government agency. where the spies are coming from. the level of astronauts sometimes take our breath away.

-- the level of espionage sometimes takes our breath away. there were 541 spies in this time from inside the u.s. government or private sector during world war two. that includes literally every u.s. government agency was penetrated during that timeframe by our allies. we know this through thewinona decrypts and his wonderful book by highly recommend a ",speies: the rise and fall of the kgb." we listed the spy wi is andnona which was the description program have put that together and what you find is where these people were.

541 by name and organization. every place in the united states was penetrated. that tells you that you do not invest in this and take it serious, it is like getting cancer. it will spread like a virus. when i show you the numbers today, we still have less numbers but it still goes on. even 38 spies inside the media were also agents in this timeframe. we have many of their names. you will not find that list anywhere else. let's turn to 2011 in the united states. these other cases that were sentenced. wrote one of them was interesting which was and rarely -- a st israeliing case. it has to do with this guy. he was a massachusetts and very unhappy with his wife and worked on an internet delivery service

and decided to send an e-mail to the israelis, to the consulate in israel. -- in new england, i'm sorry. he volunteered by e-mail. the israelis passed it all along to the fbi. they looked at this guy and this is what he writes -- he goes on volunteering that he wants to spy for israel because he is jewish. a year later, the fbi response to him and they begin to correspond. during that time, he says i want to help our home land and our war against our enemies. not a bad things can happen to her, he talks about his ex-wife. the it was not real at the mi the formerssus and they asked

for a little bit of money. there is a silly -- a series of dead drops between the fbi anddoxer and he thinks this is the israeli government and they do this 62 times. this relates to computer systems. he is arrested and in august of this year, he pled guilty to one count of economic espionage. charges were dismissed any faced 15 years in august of this year. he got six months in prison and six months in home confinement and find $230,000. that was finalized today. this was another case that took place involving the prc. it is a new trend we have never seen. glen duffy shriver.

>> a man sat buildup in international in trading in houston taking tens of thousands of dollars from chinese intelligence and is now charged with lying to the cia. >> neighbors said they had not seen him in several years. >> i saw him occasionally getting in his car. >> the 28-year-old lived with his mother in this quiet neighborhood. the last was heard, he was living in california trying to get a job and law enforcement. >> it's scary. >> the interview of the neighbors are always interesting. they're always not sure and i never thought he was a spy.

this case was interesting because here is going to grand valley state cards and have a big international program and he goes to china and they have 24,000 students there any studies abroad in shanghai and lights china. they put 4000 students overseas. the light china. -- keylay to china. anything he said in a tunnel was very pro-peeress the entire one. he studied his junior and came back here in 2004 and studied mandarin and looked to work. he did some advertising. he did an advertisement in english for someone to write a political paper. the woman who responded to this was a man there who hired him. she paid in $200 and recruited

relations between china and taiwan. that is the key issue between china and the prc. he then --amanda sets up a meeting with the chinese intelligence service. they suggested he might be interested to go to work for the state department or the cia. he says he would be interested. they arrested the do that and get some secret documents. he said that sounds like a good plan. he said he was willing to do that. he applied to the state department and got on the internet and took the service test in shanghai. it is very difficult to pass and he failed. they gave him $10,000 for trying, for his friendship, we have never seen that before. what happens next?

one year later, he takes the test again and he fails again. they pay and $20,000 for taking it a second time. he's got $30,000 for failing to serve -- the foreign service test. after that, he submits an online application to the national clandestine service of the cia. he does that in 2007 and he then flies to shanghai and meets with the prc officers during that time. they paid and $40,000 for having made the application. he now has $70,000 in his pocket and he has not been hired by anybody yet. it is rare in the spy business for anyone to be paid for future. it is almost always after the fact and we have never seen this from china before. in december, he is advised to report to the cia in washington for his final employment

processing. that means taking a polygraph. in february, he felt as al statesf-86. when it fills out the form, as he committed a crime? the cry ms.10021, he is lying on an official document. he takes a polygraph and he admits to everything. he could of said the sun is did this to him but he continued and tried to do with a dead end in june, he had a criminal indictment. he is indicted for 1001 which is lying five times. he is facing 25 years.

now they sit down and have a conversation with them. he chooses to corporate and pleads guilty to 793 which is prepared to react which is little as benign as which is 10 years. he pleads guilty to that end at the end of last year, beginning of this year, he is sentenced to 48 months and now is a convicted felon. it is a remarkable case. there is another big prc staying case at the end of 2010 that led to a conviction this year that had to do with brian martin. he is a navy reversed -- reservist at fort bragg. he is a defense dia agent -- >> this happened at three different hotels.

>> this is difficult for our country. >> that is the reaction we got for a lot of folks around here for espionage is unthinkable around here. >> .. he thought he was beating an intelligence officer from a foreign -- meeting and intelligence officer from a foreign country. the documents say it he was seeking "long-term financial reimbursement." he was given at $1,500 in cash. later, on november 19, march and

met the undercover agent again, this time at this holiday inn express. 51 pages of documents, marked secret or top secret, and again paid another $1,500. like a lot of other americans, in and out of uniform tonight >> imagine being interviewed about somebody who was a spy; right? not where you want to walk into, so he was 22 years old. he was arrested in the sting operation by the csis and fbi, passed 51 pages of secret and top secret, none passed for foreign national, charged with 794, big espionage, but he did it in a court marshall setting saying i want financial reimbursements is what he says in the sting operation, why are you spying for them, and this man comes from mexico, new york, and he ends last year. this year, may of this year, he pled guilty to 11 attempts of

espionage for trying to sell the classified material and sentenced to 48 years and 14 suspended due to pre-tile agreements and he says my soul was blinded by greed, filled with remorse and self-loathing. he's facing 34 years of federal time. there's no parole for federal time. 34 years is 34 years. you never want to be charged federally. go local. they have parole. [laughter] don't go with the feds. ten is ten. yesterday, a young man here got convicted by the feds, got 100 years for multiple rates plus 27 years. 100 plus 27. well, it's 100 years federal time. you know what that is? that's 100 years federal time. this guy got 34 years, federal

years. another was another man trying to volunteer to the israelis, did in in 2009. he was caught up again when he was trying to volunteer to the israelis, pled guilty this year to 794, big espionage, 13 years for trying to do that this year. the case broke in 2009. he got 13 years in jail, federal time. tell you about the new cases of 2011. first of all, this was a very interesting case. it's remarkable it went to trial. it went on for an activity that went on from 1990 to 2001 and broke in july of this year in washington, d.c.. when this organization, which is a non-profit, kashmiri american council, this man running the organization works for the pakistani isi, had so since

1990, had over 5,000 meetings with them, and he was funneling money from the pakistanis to this organization. as they said, handled more than 4,000 time with isi intelligence officers in washington, d.c., and the result was this -- >> the suspected isi agent pleaded guilty to charges of spying for pakistan's intelligence agency, isi, admitted to receiving $3.5 from the isi from 1990 to 2001 for 11 years. he is charged with illegally loving pack stan and isi to influence the u.s. policy. due for march 2012 and is under house arrest until then. >> you know if you'll watch the case, but he'll probably get 10 years. so another one broke in the fall

of this year by brian underwood. he was a contract guard in a consulate in china. he tried to spy for the prc in china between december and march of this year. he sent letters to the prc ouring to provide information on the new councils being built and photographs he took inside the consulate. he tried to volunteer not chinese this is what the county cul looks like, and he gets arrested twice. first arrest questioned by the fbi concerning the contents of the letter and the photographs for the chinese officials, and what did he do? he lied about it. that means he committed 10 # 01. he had a false statement and violation of 1001. he's supposed to appear in court in december, and he flees. now he's a fugitive spy, and they arrest him in l.a. and

brought him back. look at the charges now. now they charged him with 794, big espionage, and he's facing life in prisonment for espionage if he's convicted of that or pleas guilty of that. that just happened here in washington washington, d.c.. this is a man who lives here, arrested in october 2011 as an agent as the syria intelligence service. what is he doing? >> on the client role streak in virginia, residents along thomasville road watched as federal agents raided this home yesterday. according to neighbors, he and his wife and children rented the house the past two years. no one knew them very well. >> just waving, saying hi. there were a lot of vehicles up and down the road, and people going in and out of the house.

obviously, with materials -- >> still in street clothes, alex soueid told a federal judge in the first court appearance he wanted his own attorney. for now, he'll remain in federal custody. in a 15-page indictment, the u.s. government alleges he collected both video and audio of people protesting against the syria government; then passed it along to them to be used to silence them. it described a recent trip to syria, a meeting between soueid and an e-mail to the syria embassy in washington, d.c.. >> if we knew something was going on on the street here, they had been following him quite a while. this is a photo taken from the twitter page. there's only five tweets all from last january. sources tell me, he's worked at a variety of car.pros across northern virginia. >> [inaudible]

>> interesting case. he's going out on the demonstrations which have been taking place in syria, and there's proand antigovernment forces there. he's videotaping them. he's audiotaping them. the anti-syria protesters, provides information to the syria intelligence service. that information is then used to intimidate the families back in syria to quiet them. he's recruiting -- he recruits a network of individuals to help him in the united states to collect information the dmon -- demonstrators here in the united states, the protesters, and conspires to provide this to the syria intelligence service years back there. these are the targets of his demonstrations. [chanting] >> these demonstrations have been going on -- maybe you

missed them, i'm not sure -- but the information is then passed to an unidentified coconspirator officer in the embassy, and he actually provides reports by e-mailing them into the embassy in washington, d.c. as to what he's doing. there's 20 audio recordings, provides links to web pages he reports on ones he beats when he talks to them. lists of who is missing or dead, and demonstrations that he's collected, and that is with telephone numbers and e-mails of protesters in the united states. the kind of information that would be of great value for the syria service to crack down, which they did, and he travels to syria, meeting the president in june of 2011. that's part of it. a good example of this -- this is a cause and effect. this was the syria composer and pianist who was here in washington, demonstrating for the protesters in july, and they

went to his house, and this is what they did to his mother and father, and this is what the syria security service says -- this is what you get when your son mocks the government. this is the lesson to you to teach you how to raise your children. this is what they did. now, they actually have come here back to the united states, the mother and father, and they are still alive. not true for everybody there, but that's the cause and effect between what he was doing here. he violates against what protesters say were justified, raiding homes of protesters was justified and any method should be used for a protester. these are his words. he's charged with fara and 1001. he lies, and so he's facing 40 # years, and his trial should be -- or his plea bargain should be this year, but i bet he

pleads out this year. he falsified his records which is called piling on. he faces 40 years for what he was doing during 2011. the status is the case that rules he must be held until trial. the first trial, the judge didn't understand the case, and they let him out on bond, and the federal government went timeout. that was the 21st of october they let him out on bonds, appealed it, and the next judge so, no, no, no, you can't do that. he's now scheduled for trial in may of 2012. watch this case. here's another case that broke in october of this year. >> the fbi says a young american soldier stationed in alaska has been charged with espionage. 22-year-old william mallay is from kentucky, and stationed at a joint army air force base in anchorage. >> this case broke in anchorage, was quiet when it started. he's a military police officer,

was at an air force army base in alaska, and he vol deers -- volunteers to an unidentified country, and it appears he may have done this because his unit was deployed and he was left behind. it's unclear. not that much has come out on this case other than he's under arrest for this. he had access to unclassified information in the course of his normal duties but could be used to the advantage of a foreign power which he said when he volunteer, and he tried to translate national defense information to a person he thought it was a foreign agent, and one of his down falls 1 he tried to recruit a fellow service member to dispersion classified information. it's not that uncommon. that was the fall of this year. this is his home in kentucky. he was -- he had been -- he had been in iraq previously, and

then he was signed up in alaska of may of this year, and he's arrested in the fall of this year. he's charged -- files charged in november of this year and attempted espionage, failure to obey general orders meaning contact with a foreign official, soliciting and communicating defense information. the military has more flexibility in a prosecution. he'll be court marshalled because he's in yiewn formed. -- uniformed. interesting to watch this case this year. being investigated, however, is the joint case by the air force and by the fbi. you know, it's the cause of the three of them working this case. that's what we've had in this national security cases in 201 # 1. we had five economic espionage cases with nine people involved in the united states in economic espionage cases. a couple of them are particularly interesting to highlight. these were two chinese prc nationals who did not have diplomatic immunity, who had

come to the united states, and they were trying to violate the arms control export act by supporting ammunitions they couldn't send designed for satellite use. they were here on an acquisition process trying to get this information. they worked for a space, science, and technology department, represented that company here in the united states. they were eventually arrested in hungary, but an export case, he's expediteble, arrested in september of 2010, returned here in the united states of april 2011. these are chinese nationals arrested here. they pled guilty to smuggling hardened microchips by companies controlled by beijings. that's what they got him in the crimes for, pled guilty, and they have yet to be sentenced. time will tell, but they are foreign nationals here. another case of these three individuals conspiring up in new york and washington to give

information to iran. it's the trade -- transfer technology information. what they are doing is shipping computer information that they couldn't send to iran, but they were sending it to dubai to mast the final delivery to iran, a diversion case from a company called online microsoft and they were using it to purchase millions of dollars wort of laptop computers, going to due bye and from there being diverted. we found out about it is the agent in dubai was arrested himself in this case and gave them up, but they were sending about $300,000 worth l computers every month, not just one time. that's pending trial here note united states. another case, non-criminal case, but an economic case. 5 man and his father were conspiring for a packing company to compete against armor packing, and using confidential information and marketing data

to compete against them, and they are taking a civil suit against them. that took place in may of this year. this is an interesting case because of what he had access to. here's a chinese -- ethnic chinese in the united states, 5 senior software engineer, 49 years old, national, and it's not clear to me whether he's a nationalized american or a born american. have not been able to determine that to this date, a ph.d., and he works for a company that does commodity trading, and so this area, he was working on this program, was arrested this year, # and two chinese nationals relied in china were in a business plan with him. in other words, they wanted another company to do commodities trading in china, using the methodology from his company to take to a company they were setting up in china. he got the information. he downloaded thousands of files

on his thumb drive that he brought into the system, transferred stolen documents to the personal computer so they were out of the company on a thumb drive, then goes home, puts them in an e-mail to send to china. he has attachments. these were source codes, proprietary information, and that he was going to go to china in july on the 7th of july, arrested on the 1st of july facing 20 years for this economic espionage case. here's another interesting case where this man from colombia, very, very bright, was involved in citadel investment. this is proprietary information for an investment company. he's both criminally and federally charged. >> in federal court today, a case that sounds like a spy novel. long mischarges of corporate

espionage, there's secret informants and sciewb baa divers in a canal as well. how this reinvolves around a 24-year-old ivy league financial whiz. >> allen, kathy, tonight, yihao ben pu is in jail after preparing for a case near mission impossible. the crime suspect just 24 years, a couple years out of cornell with the makings of a real live thriller. with billions in assets, citadel is a large hedge fund manager. the firm goes to great length to secure employees and a curat network they use to make investments, especially the secret trading codes known as alphas. affording to federal charges, a once trusted federal employee went by the name of ben pu went to steal the codes by by passing

the company's security protocols and transferring them to externt devices. he said he was downloading academic papers and music files, but officials didn't buy it and determined pu was stealing trade secrets. after pu was caught, and associate of his told the company and federal agents that the 24-year-old whiz dumped evidence into a sanitary canal. authorities say divers discovered computer equipment in the water here that contained citadel's alphas considered the building block of the firm's success. >> caper, by the way. there's one more case i wanted to move on past this one and move to overseas. okay, so if i might, let me go overseas talking examples there. first of ail, if we look at what happened -- there's two european

cases that are interesting. there's one that was in the netherlands and broke in march of this last year when a 37-year-old pilot -- was a jet pilot -- he was charged for spying for the bellarusekcb. this captain named chris was arrested by the secret service as he was trying to pass these state secrets to the belarus. he was working for a royal naval air force, no longer for the service, acquired information while he was there, and then this is the man who acknowledged that he had had financial problems, this pilot, that he had worked for the defense for 13 years, and he was now resigned. he had been in bombing raids in kosovo and afghanistan. he was a war fighter for them. he wanted to do business with a

resident of belarus, resigned to be in contact with a colonel from belarus kgb. there was a close relationship between belarus and today's russia svr and sfb. it was not a belarus case. turns out it was a grrks -- gru case. he was arrested at the military embassy. a russian officer, not a russian kgb officer was out of netherlands because of the case, and it seems in august is surfaces he had more secrets than they that. he was wanted to use them -- admitted when they arrested him, they didn't say he had this much, and that they eventually discovered that he had hidden this in a container that was being shipped to the united arab emirates, and that's where his material was that included files

and cd-roms. it was more than it appeared to. he wanted $500,000 euros -- about $750,000 american depending on the exchange rate, and he was convicted this december. he got five years in prison. if it was an american case, he would have got more than five years. european spy cases are about one-third the american effort as to what they get. i've talked to europeans and they said you clonians are sensitive to espionage. we're more sophisticated than that. we realize it's not that important. i had great debates about that with them. he gets five years in prison for that case working for the gru. there's nothing like a good spy scandal, and great britain loves them. they had one this year. they thought after the chapman case here in the united states, they had a big one, so all of this year starting in december of last year, there was this story about this katrina working

for a man in the parliament. it was a big issue in england. >> russian embassy officials in london have finally been allowed to contact a young russian woman arrested almost a week ago on suspicion of spying. 25-year-old now faces deportation. she was an assistant to british mp and the u.k. says that she was gathering information on nuclear facilities. the russian counsel is waiting for official permission with a meeting with her. london refused to provide moscow with any information about the arrest and had initially blocked access to the woman. well, this didn't stop the western media from relishing the bond-style details of the scandal, however. >> she's been called a honey

trap, a blond bomb shell, and a russian spy working at the heart of british government, but who is she? originally, her family moved to another part of southern russia to escape conflict, and then she attended this specialist language school, and like many good students, kept in touch with her teacher and shared pictures from trips and other momentos. >> she was a hard working student. i didn't believe it was all about her until i saw the photos. >> [inaudible] >> unfortunately, this is the story that the british press loves. the details about the young woman who colleagues say wore short skirts and high heels and lunched in the company of her much older boss, but friends report another side to katia all together. >> we stayed in the same

institute, and part of the program was to train us to be international expert, and that's what she is. you know, bright, young woman who has education, who has knowledge, who loves her country, but is still willing and ready to go abroad and share that experience and gain more experience. >> she has limited access to e-mail inside the detention facility where she's being held. she's been in touch with me to say she's asking to be released, but so far nothing she's appealing against the deportation order. >> so she was held. they were going to deport her. it was thee news all through this year because arrested at christmas time of last year until december of this year when they had the deportation hearing. >> thank you. >> katia protected her innocence, and she remains in the u.k. to fight this appeal. today in a historic judgment, the verbal immigration appeals

commission overturned the deportation order. the panelist found on the balance of probabilities that katia is not a russian spy. the court did not reach that conclusion by narrow margin. the security services case was found to be wanting at every stage. indeed, many of the factors relied upon by the security services led the court to an opposing conclusion. >> that must have been disappointing after an entire year waiting for great anticipation in the case, and it turns out to be nothing behind it. however, that's not true for the other ones to talk about. there's an ongoing spy war going on in asia. i don't know if you follow asia, but i like to talk about the prc, columbia, and korea spy wars. if you get involved with working the china issue and you have anything to do with taiwan, you'll service the mss.

as the head of the orc said, he said we're so engaged in a war without gunfire. if you look at what's been going on, he's absolutely right. looking at the taiwan intelligence service, which do operate here in the united states, there are three of them. the national security branch, which is like their foreign intelligence service. the military intelligence bureau, which is what it says it is, and the justification bureau, is the counterintelligence bureau similar to the fbi. that's what constitutes the taiwan intelligence service. the national security bureau has the six divisions. 1 the one that operates overseas. this is the one that has a presence here in the united states. they are aggressive. they use official cover. they aggressively target prc students in the united states and around the world. it is a big part of what this particular service of the national security branch does. the military justice investigation bureau is the one

that's countering internal disorder. it does counterintelligence within taiwan, and the military intelligence is as exactly as it is, collects military information intelligence, and it's a big deal in china. 1999 what you find when you study the spy business that often cases do not stand alone. each case begets another case, and that's what we see happening here. the prc executed two of its own officers, major general and a senior colonel. they were successes for the intelligence service. this 58-year-old major general executed and a 56-year-old senior colonel executed in 1999. they provided information on missiles for the prc talking about the capability, and they learned information they didn't carry warheads because, as you know, the prc had some missiles go over taiwan causing concern

with taiwan, and a lot of the information that comes out comes from these two sources that were captured. a good book to read on this is assessing the threat. i recommend that to you. it does lay out a lot more detail than i have time to talk about. a number of the prc and nrc spies that took place and talks about what i just talked about. there's 14 very high profile roc spies for the prc. if you look at these individuals, look at their ranks, and look where they were. you know, retired colonel. you have a petty officer. you have a retired colonel for the military intelligence branch. then you have one civilian high-tech organization, and then their fbi. the mib, you have in essence every organization of their intelligence services penetrated leading up to a big case this year. it was almost like a kris --

cresendo leading up to the case. one was a couple looking for information after retirement, and he was arrested in 2002. they recruited their son as a decoder for the navy and used him also. this was a family affair, if you would, and they took photographs of ports and vessels, examples of naval operation systems and so forth. they used their information to e-mail them. the son passed it to dad, passed it to the prc. the navy petty officer, when he was arrested for espionage in 2002, he got a life sentence. the dad recruited him, and his son is in prison now for the rest of his life. father was arrested on smuggling and released in 1990 after agreeing to spy for china. he retired, was recruited, and now he's working back against them. since 1994, he collected over

$10,000, hong kong, $1200 a month for spying for them. what's interesting about this war is they pay money. you don't find a lot of money exchanging taking place in prc operations in the united states. you see a lot of the economic cases i talked about, but you don't see the kind of high cost payments, payments to agent, but you do in this spy war that's going on. 2003, two mib military intelligence branch officers arrested. one was a colonel passing information to the pss, and another was faxing information from a convenience store and these were the men who compromised the to officers that i told you were executed in 1999. i started off with that story. these were the sources of them, so that led to the two officers being killed. this one was a military run institute. a high-tech spy case in 2003. one of the biggest espionage scandals as they said, taiwan

and the island, and heavers released -- he was released, awaiting trial, and he never went to trial. he was smuggled at the prc. he got away with it. it was a high-tech spy case they had. primary research and development institute for the defense armorment branch. that's a very significant penetration that they had, announced they detained 24 taiwan and 19 mainlanders on spying charges and they all confessed. how did they find out? networks being run on the prc. during the same time, two very high profile individuals were arrested first in secret in 2005 as taiwan spies. this particular one, wo, arrested in 2005, went to trial in 2007, and sentenced to death, and he along with his coconspirators in china, a prc national who was recruited, they were both executed in 2008, so these two -- he worked for him

for some time. he graduated from medical school in 1981. he was sent on a scholarship to germany, and he was living in germany. he got his medical degree. he got austrian citizen and visited the prc on a regular bay cigs and that was -- basis, and that was 1991. he was recruited by the military branch because he had access to the prc, and he was receiving paid money by the military intelligence of tie won based on his access to the prc, and this was as early as 1989. he developed a network in the mainland, and he spent -- they spent $300,000 with his wife setting up a restaurant for them. it was a very important source for taiwan military intelligence penetrating the prc. he eventually finds the man who he knew who was a relative of his, and he recruited him. he was a missile technology expert. this is quo, who provided

information on strategic missiles. well, after he was executed, the question how could they compromise, and the head of the service made this comment that i don't necessarily buy into but thought it was interesting. he said the outbreak in 2002 was a bilogical warfare formula developed by the prs. i don't buy it, but it's the comment going on between them. who compromised the two individuals? there was a colonel that worked for them who passed the information to the ss, and another lieutenant colonel, both military intelligence arrested in 2003. they were the sources of the two men who were executed that i talked about in 2005. then you have their counterintelligence service. 155, 154, they were started -- he retired in 1997, and then he recruited a friend of his still

in the service. not uncommon in the chinese cases. a friend recruits someone else, and they were arrested in 2007 as a pair exchanging confidential information and they were receiving money for their espionage. left the service in 2007, became a businessman in commie -- china, and recruited a friend. this theme is done over and over again. they have access, recruit them, go back, and they recruit someone else. this colonel was a former member of the military intelligence, prc spy in 2008. that recriewmentment -- this was a section chief charged with analyzing intelligence on china, and he retired in 2002 and went back to china to do business, recruited again, sent back in. business motivation, business didn't go well, chinese came in, recruited him, say who do you know? what they get is high level

penetrations. in addition to that, two high level penetrations in 2009 -- here's one working for the legislative arm and the one i find interesting, these advisers, the office of the president was recruited as a source. a former senior adviser to the office of the president. you can message what that would happen if it was here in the united states. the prc has been very successful in penetrating taiwan in the spy war going on, and they had this kind of high level access. two great big last cases. >> including a high ranking military official arrested monday for supplying intelligence to the chinese regime. taiwan prosecutors believe it began in 2007. it's the highest level of espionage in taiwan in 20 years. a banker was arrested on charges of supplying intelligence to the regime. he worked and was also arrested and here's in charge of moving taiwan's spy network to china

and recruitments in 2004 to serve as the source in china. he was later arrested by chinese intelligence officials after his cover was blown. he was tortured and then they went to taiwan to get information from the colonel and began he leaked classified information in 2007, at least part time. he was paid as much as $100,000 u.s. dollars. [inaudible] spoke about the impact of the intelligence. >> [inaudible] the ministry of national defense actively took charge in the case and we uncovered the suspects now have prosecutors and they are doing damage control based on the current situation. the impact of the case on the current operations is very

limited. >> despite the major general's reassurance, some are in serious danger. >> all right. that was in the beginning of just -- just the end of 2010. the colonel was actually recruited by his agent, and he had been an agent and was part of a network. he'd worked for the colonel in 2003-2005. eventually, the taiwans thought he was controlled, broke the relationship with him, paid him $50,000 for doing it, and then they dropped him as a spy. after that, the prc discovered he was a spy in july of 2006, recruited him, and they asked him to redeem himself because he's living in china to recontact his handler who was in taiwan, which he did, and he recruited him, the counselor. that's how the colonel was a

source, and now his source recruited him back. they say they were using it for a deception operation also, but interestingly because he was paid $46,000 by the prc. what was the end result? the colonel passed classified information at least 12 time, and he, the colonel, was paid $100,000 for his action, and he used the information provided also to get himself promoted in his own organization. he was using his source for himself and the source was using him. he ended up getting sentenced to life plus 27 years in taiwan. the source got three years, which led them to the big one, and this was the big one that took place this year. >> generals for allegedly spying for china with officials says he was promoted in 2008 and was found to be recruited by china in 2004.

>> a major they wan general was detained for handing military information over to china, the island's military officials confirmed on wednesday. taiwan claims he spied for china for at least six years. >> general was overseas from 2002 to 2005 and the case of the spies for china began during that period. he was not posted to the united states as indicated in earlier reports. he was recruited by china in 2004. >> the military court searched the residents last month detaining the major general to prevent the risk of him escaping, destroying evidence, or threatening military security. >> at the end of october last year or 2001, the defense ministry and national security department cooperated to obtain leads and host investigations. >> the defense ministry says all

citizens should be cautious of china's intentions, even with the apparent warming of cross strait ties. beijing never renounced the use of force to bring the democratic taiwan under its rule and claims the island under its sovereignty. they have about 1900 missiles on the island, just 100 miles away. major generals are the island's highest ranked military official to be charged with espionage activities. >> this is one remarkable case. he was providing information in 2004, a major general, which is the first general rank, since 2008, turned over taiwan-u.s. specific command joint strike information and shared platforms, the network we developed was compromised by him

also, and in bangkok he's recruited by the prc using a woman whose access to him, and what appears to be a love relationship, he recruits this woman who claims to be an australian. she's involved in the recruitment of him, and his last job was military, electronic, and information department. he was in knowledge and access to air, land, bat 8, system, electronic codes, and other crucial secrets, very significant for the defense of that area 6789 he also had access to joint electronic warfare communications as well as a special project on technology for encrypting communications in the island, and part of the system was built by lookheed martin. as i said, he was recruited by a woman who who was tall, beautif,

and chic, held an australian passport, pretended to work in trade when he met her, and eventually was recruited by her as the prc agent. claimed he was paid $200,000 at a time up to a million dollars. china doesn't pay that money only if it relates to china and maintained contact with the woman and was some reporting that she had come to the united states to meet him when he was here on a tdy. he was not aassigned here, but the woman was a high ranking chinese agent stationed and had act can with him. that's unconfirmed in the stuff i've seen. in april of this year, got life in prison, big deal to end that war. they set up a new polygraph policy as a result of this, brand new for taiwan. another case broke in june of this year having to do with another high-tech case, and the

prc was tasking him for information relating to military secrets also. >> taiwan software engineer sentenced to jail for a year and a half after caught spying for the chinese regime. we spoke to the lawmaker who says that the prison sentence is too light. >> all right. that was the latest case. let's turn in the time we have to two more events. one has to do with a they wan-cambodia border war going on. you may or may not be aware of the war, and as well as with is espionage along the border. there was a discontentious border between them and well, in february, a high profile activist in taiwan and his secretary had entered into cambodia from thailand, arrested for unlawful entry going to a military base and espionage. they each were sentenced to eight years. he got eight year, and she got six months.

that was february of this year in this case. another one had to do right on the border when these three nationals, a thai, cambodia, and vietnam, the handler, the colonel, apparently, he was not arrested, he was the spy master, three each got two years in jail of september of this year. that's another spy war going on. all right. that's the location that took place, and they were driving along providing information they saw. this is just, you know, military observations, arrested, and charged with espionage, and culminated of this year. all right. i want to talk about the spy wars of north and south korea because nobody spies and does things like the north koreans. if we think other countries are strong, north korea's like that. in july 2010, two north koreans who had come into the south were sentenced by a court for ten

years for attempting to assassinate the former secretary of the north korean ruling communist party. this is the man in charge of their communist organization. he, himself, had defected to the south in 1997, and so this has been a real problem for north korea that this man, who was a real problem for them, and so they sent an assassination team to track him down and to kill him. two of them were arrested in july of 2010, and this colonel, this particular colonel, who was a north korean reconnaissance bureau, colonel general now, was in charge of the assassination operation, and he ordered the men that when you find him, cut his head off. they were arrested in july. in january, beginning of this year, a third korean was jailed # and given ten years for trying

to assassinate the same man in korea. that was in january, and this man already died in october. he defected a 97, died of a heart attack in 2007. multiple attempts to assassinate him. there's another one that took place in september of this year. with the arab spring in bloom, the south koreans there were saying that this is something that the north koreans controlled society should know about. so the south korean national intelligence stfs detained a man by the name of ahn on a platform when he was planning to meet park. park was a north korean defector, but he defected this 2000. what he was doing is he formed an organization called or was a member of an organization called fighters for a free north korea. there were some 20 members of free north korea sending helium

balloons into the north with propaganda leaflets concerning the arab spring along with a thousand dollars and $100 bills and radios. they wanted the north to know what was going on in the world because the north is so isolated. well, obviously, the north was getting these balloons and there was this man who was responsible, and he had been a defector. what do you think they do? dispatch an assassination team to meet him, and so the man ahn, who made contact with them, was to meet them at a train station on a subway platform, and he was arrested for the assassination plot. when he -- they arrested him, he was carrying poisen to either put in his drink or hit it with needles, and where did the assassin come from? the assassin is also a defector.

he defected to the south also, but the north contacted him and said if you don't carry out this assassination attempt using the needles or capsules, we're going to kill your family. he said what am i to do? they're going to kill my family. he's arrested trying to commit this assassination. i mean, only in korea would you find these things unfolding. he received $1,000 on his assassination plan. he was trying to carry it out before he was arrested. there were other assassination attempts, a defector the head of a christian group, another man in charge of the free north korea radio they were trying to assassinate, and another man who was part of education center for unification that they wanted to assassinate, so it's -- espionage and assassination is alive and well. north korean defections have been an issue for some time. there's been 22,000 north koreans who defected, surprisingly 200 returned, but

as you can see, the numbers they've had, but apart from using vulnerability on some occasions, the north used it as a way to reach out to the people. you normally don't see that in other parts of the world, but you see it there. there's another blackmail case of this year to tell you about, and before i end, and that's a lieutenant colonel, part of the indian army, caught in a honey trap by the pakistani isi. he did the right thing. he was in bangladesh for a conference in october. he got involved with a woman. they approached him to recruit him. all indications are that he did not work for the pakistanis, but the indian officer turned himself in, and he went back to india, and now they are deciding whether they're going to prosecute him or not for what he did. they don't have evidence of it. it became public before christmas, and it's being done by the raw ib, the investigative bureau for india, so espionage

is alive and well. if you're interested in ever doing anything with a spypedia, there's a 40% discount. that's on the form we have here. there is two hours of the beginning of espionage in 20 # 1 # 1. i'm open to any questions you have in the time we have. yes, sir, please. >> who do you -- >> please wait for the microphone. >> who do you think is killing the iranian scientists? >> well, okay. i have no insight on that whatsoever. to answer a question like that, you'd have to ask yourself who has the capability and motivation for doing that? there's only one organization i think would have the capability of doing that which would be israeli intelligence service. don't believe in any regard whatsoever it's the americans involved in any way contrary to what iran says. look at the world actors, they could be doing it, or iranian disinnocent organizations who

also are upset about it. there could be agents acting on their own or with a support of the israelis. i have not seen evidence to pinpoint a particular country. that's my educated guess at this point, and e retain the opportunity to change my mind, but i can think of no one else with that capability or the willingness to do that. let me just add one thing to there that i find interesting as you may recall. last year when dubai, an assassination that took place in dubai, and if you look at that very carefully, it had all the earmarks of israel, women, min, and one of the interesting things about that team that came in there that did assassinations, they tracked, and left, two when they flew out of dubai flew to iran. they flew to escape dubai and went to tehran. that's like right in your face saying i can come into your country, leave your country, and you don't know i'm doing it. if they are escaping attempt, and you're willing to go to tie

ran, they have that capability. i think that's who i would make an educated guess at this time with no insight now whatsoever. any other questions you have? >> hold on. >> dave, going back to your definition of espionage with less and big espionage, assuming that what we think we know in the public domain is true about assange, on the other hand, he decided he really is protected the information to foreign powers, and, in fact, all foreign powers. looking from an espionage point of view, assange, want to riff on that for a minute. >> assange or manling. charged with a court marshall,

and they just had hearings on that, it's a 34 -- what's that called? article 34 review of the case, and i think, you know, it's going to go to trial. assange is another problem because, first of all, even if youmentsed to charge -- you wanted to charge him, how do you get him here? it's not an exdietble crime. he received the information. received federal goods. that would be interesting. there's a huge political dimension to it. that's always a consideration in one of these cases. technically, technically, if he was in the united states and received that information, he certainly could have be charged with 793 retention of information, so you have some real legal arguments, and if you follow closely, which i'm sure you have, the arguments that were made in the preliminary hearings, it's a case worth following closely within the united states.

in practical term, i don't see him being charged by the united states. i just don't see any way you can do anything with the case because he's not in the united states. as you -- you'd have to talk to the department of justice to figure out whether they want to take the case on anyways because of all the political dimensions to it. >> [inaudible] >> do i believe -- >> potential there. >> that state own companies could be what? >> do you think there's potential in state owned companies, say they hire a lawyer, would that be -- [inaudible] >> oh, no, those people do register. if you are a state at home company acting for a foreign government, those people, if they are acting for the government, you have to register. now a state-owned company or a

french company that's not related to the government, they would not have to register because they are not -- >> no, but -- [inaudible] >> sure, sure. you're an agent -- sure, you represent that state. there's many people who come to the department of justice to register. i mean, lawyers and businessmen of all types do register. you know, within ten days, go down, register you're an agent for foreign power. remember it was interesting that carter's brother, billy carter, was acting for the libya, and he was in violation because he did not register as an agent under fara and he started representing libya. it was a political snafu back then -- if you remember that case. >> [inaudible] a state own government -- a state owned company, they are just acting for the state, and then you have to register.

that's my interpretation of what the law would say. go to the attorney to get the final answer. how about that for a hedge? [laughter] any other questions? please? >> if i remember correctly, the iranians have a u.s. -- >> yeah. >> what will they do with that? >> i don't know. >> what do you think? [laughter] >> the whole idea is can you spoof it or modify it? it's less of a deal -- i don't think it's that big of a deal because you lose technology, you know? you can put other technology in it, change the technology, change the encryption on it, and you're going to have it, going to get access to it and any other weapon systems, they'll have access to it. yes, it's interesting. we had a great debate here in the group on the fact that what is the difference between, you know, selling and getting a drone and getting a fighter pilot? you know, you don't have a person in the plane.

you can make them cheaper which is one of the issues. i don't think that's a big a deal in the long term as we see it i don't think. that's my personal opinion. don't hold me to it. >> dave? >> yes. >> thank you so much. it's been a wonderful evening, and i think we are all mentally expanded. thank you so much. thank you. [applause] >> i hope you believe espionage is at least going on. [laughter] [inaudible conversations] >> there's a shift that essentially happened online where people's privacy is no longer owned by them. it's essentially a currency that we use to get access to facebook

for free or g mail, and it's a real problem we'll see the effects of over the next few years. >> what's the digital future look like? reporter nick bilton on the change of technology. "the communicators" tonight at eight eastern on c-span2. ..

this week on q&a, producer, director carl colby discusses his latest documentary film about the life and death of his father former cia director william colby. c-span: why did you do a documentary on your father? >> guest: you might have asked that question ten or 15 years ago when he was alive, and i was down in washington, d.c. making documentaries and interviewing other people's you might think why didn't i interview my father then that he was the kind of person that as you know if he was alive today he would talk about what's going on with the drones and would be involved in the debates of the time but as his son asking him personal questions as to his motivations and not detailed operational the information but other more personal information he just wasn't forthcoming. so i thought it would be very

frustrating. and then there's another reason i made which was i was watching golf blitz your's coverage of the fall of the twin towers on 9/11 and he asked james baker how this happened. and james baker said a trace this back directly to win colby revealed the family jewels of the cia when he testified before the pike and church committees and that just decimated the ability to conduct covert action and activities around the world. i guess my father is relevant to read and then two weeks later i saw photographs of cia operatives wearing turbans and sporting beards and riding with the northern alliance on camelback and horseback up in northern afghanistan and i thought that looks like oss so i thought maybe that's a story here. c-span: you're father lived in what years? >> guest: he lived 1920 to 1996. born as an army brat really never lived in the same place more than two years, i think some very formative years when he was a young boy in tientsin,

china, which was really just before the manchurian invasion. he had a taste for the orient. he understood the military. he's the kind of way that you'd find on the edge of the parade ground saluting and watching the soldiers go by. c-span: i rode on a quote from your document rick, "my father was the coldest character i ever knew." what did you mean by that? >> guest: well, what i mean is that as a boy grew up understanding vlore a from he had been and what he had done. he wasn't braggadocio, he was the opposite of the great san teeny as you remember. he was probably kind of a quiet, self-effacing%. he had been in bonds but he wasn't pushing them on you. in his favorite expression when we would argue and we would argue about the war and just about everything but especially about the vietnam war. but you get your point across, and he would then get his and

get course he knows a bit more about it like it, you know, and in the and he'd say fair enough. as a fly respect your opinion. just give my opinion as a shot as well. and i always remember that about him. he wasn't pushing. as a moderate 70 me, not physically aggressive and bombastic and ruling the roost with a big iron fist. he was really more of the climate influence and i think we picked up on that and understood him. c-span: what were the major jobs he had in his life? >> guest: first job probably was just being a traffic some to his military father and mother who believe it or not his father treated with sitting bull the minnesota territory. secure lead on army bases. he went to princeton at the age of 16 on a scholarship and never looks back. he wanted to be in the spanish civil war fighting on the side of the republicans but was too young. and then he went into the zero ss, pittard should behind enemy lines in france and occupied more we fighting in the nazis blowing up troop trains. then he went to being a lawyer in new york. he once told me an american can offered me a job in their

general counsel office and looked at me like i've got nothing against this team can come i liked canned food, but i can't see spending my life like that, so he joined the cia which was just forming at the time. he then went to italy where he worked on influence in the election so that the christian to the cuts would when the communists would lose. and then on to the viet nam and that begins another story. c-span: when i first met you to a the first thing out of my mouth was my goodness you look just like your dad. do you get often? >> guest: yes, i do. i can tell the i guess. but you know he was a creature of washington as well as being from other places. he loved the give and take it easy. you know you look around the world these days especially america and the are so contentious and people read each other's throats but i still feel washington as the place where people talk to each other. and you can have all rumsfeld and patrick leahy may be missing loom once in awhile. and if he wanted to live and that will where he could have disclosure and mabey disagree, but really come up with the best solutions to today's problems. c-span: we found some video in

our archive of your father racket 1989 talking to a group of interns at washington's center here and we use this before we show you documentary just to establish what he looked like and what sounded like. >> bobby kennedy lived nearby and drove by this sign monday and said to me you know, this is the sly little because silliest thing i've ever seen. here's a secret intelligence agency on a four-lane parkway with a great big sign pointing to it. for god's sake least take this lying down. we took the sign down and we did have quite a lot of influence. for 15 years we pretended that big building wasn't there. even though every pilot on his way out of the national airport used it as a checkpoint, turn left at cia. because it was so obvious. c-span: what did you see there? i mean, you know him. >> guest: what i see is his brutal honesty. he's not afraid. he's not afraid of you physically, certainly. he's just not afraid of the american public. he's afraid of the enemy in terms of what they can inflict upon us but he's not afraid of us.

patrick leahy, i interviewed him for the film, and he said what are we afraid of? meaning what are we americans afraid of in terms of setting up policy? if we get a drone policy or if we have a policy of being in to 18 to 20 countries now that we don't talk about, then i don't want to reveal operational details, but let's talk about that policy. let's see what we can and cannot do, what we should and shouldn't do. and as we he said, if you don't like the policy, and don't pass it and live with the consequences. but i think he did not hear us. c-span: what was the phoenix program that he was either in charge of or involved in in the vietnam? >> guest: yeah, probably the most controversial thing he was involved in his whole life as he was called back in 1968 to vietnam by president johnson at the time. and i remember my sister had bought him a stable, russian fur hat, and he had been assigned to be the new chief of the soviet bloc division. well, that's about the biggest secret assignment you can get in

the cia, and he was all excited about that. but in lyndon johnson called. he said we want you to go out to vietnam and run this pacification program. and that was a program of really a little bit of what's going on, a lot of what is going on in afghanistan and what went on in anbar province in iraq which was secure a part of the town like a movie general mcmaster now head of intelligence for afghanistan. if you go into a hot zone to secure at least one section of the town, make it livable for the people there and then billed out for their and once people can sort of go to work and raise their children and by their lights and with ever come in and secure some stability for the place, and then start using your intelligence. and that's really with the phoenix pacification covert program. the overall program specification. get with the villagers. it's not a shooting war might between us and some guy running around in the jungle. it's good to know the villagers had and what are their needs and then learned for them. phoenix was the kind of tip of this year. that is where the voters of

light in july to the viet cong were and what the north vietnamese were and they would lock and interrogate them, captured, interrogate and hopefully turn them. it would be like my dad with the drones. he would say it's fine to kill bin ladens or maybe a couple of our higher ups, but you don't want to be killing the middle of old guys. you want to capture them, interrogate them and me the best of all split them, get them to work for us. c-span: fast vietcong were south vietnamese were supposedly communists that were involved in fighting the government. how long was he involved in the phoenix program and when did it blow up in a controversy? >> guest: what happened is by 68 the war had really gone badly for america in terms of the conventional attack. the west marland war. general abrams came in and said we've got one war philosophy now. we are going to conduct still offensive operations but we are going to merely make this a people's war. so he started being effective and the phoenix program as i said the tip of this year, he's

my cousin and me out of the taliban and we ought to capture him and interrogate him and get rid of him are you just selling a grudge is he telling them or not and it's difficult to cooperate the evidence so he suffered for that. 29,000 vietcong a sympathizer in viet cong would kill in the program. that's a lot of people. but in vietnamese general said after the war backed colby and phoenix hurt us. destroying their infrastructure. i think by then america was fed up with the war and they solve these horrific pictures of people being beat up and tortured etc., bodies laid out in mass graves and thought this is just terrific. why are we there is of the controversy began shortly after he came back to the united states and was appointed by nixon to be the director of cia. c-span: by the way, what was --

from what you can remember what were his politics? >> guest: i would say he was the fdr liberal. he was jfk kind of incarnate, he was active in world war ii. he drank the milk of fdr. he believed in -- he was a democratic activist i would say labor lawyer tralee. conducting sort of activist rallies and supporting downtrodden workers seriously and i think going into the cia lot of people were from yale and especially the ivy league they were pretty liberal and they were liberal like jfk. it should be at the end of the 60's when it all starts to go sour and i think that he stayed being liberal kind of undercover as, and then emerged when you see him in the clips you have where he's very open and very willing to engage in the public and in a sense no longer the clandestine officer. c-span: listed in to your documentary and before you do,

how long is it? >> guest: the film as 104 minutes long and 35-millimeter playing in local theaters and will be out nationwide and cities shortly so 104 minutes. c-span: when did you start working on it? >> guest: i was inspired by the 9/11 story but i started working about 2005, so it is a long, two years of editing with my editor in new york, the daughter of the famous charles guggenheim was lead producer along with david johnston and an extraordinary man of archival footage of gist common memory lame american foreign policy from world war ii in number. c-span: how long have you been doing documentaries? >> guest: i've been doing them from the 70's i have to admit. c-span: is that your -- >> guest: it's my profession. i couldn't just come out of the box and make this movie. when you see the fillmore as you've seen it i have to be careful with what i said and how wise it in terms of accuracy. i am dealing with some of the

most important issues america has ever faced. i did a lot of homework. c-span: here is your mother talking in the documentary. >> sometimes it was difficult to ascertain where we were going at a certain point that evening we went to the theater i recognized a couple we it died with the mind before -- dined with the night before and i said how or you, was in that pleasant last evening? and my husband took me aside and said quite, quite, we don't know these people. we don't know these people? well, we did know these people. there were times when really i didn't know what role we were playing. who are we tonight?

>> we would go somewhere, family trip on a weekend picnic basket and the lack and he would meet somebody and have a conversation, deliver something. he and my mother and the family left town and drove north and pass a radio to somebody that was a picnic it wasn't a lie. one of my dad's friends said you know your mother has a lot to do with your father's success. they were a great team. the family wasn't always lead into this world of his beginning of course with the cia code of the need to know. he really never had to tell me

anything. i suppose that's the cia modus operandi but even so i remember hearing one cia wife with a rather high-ranking officer said my husband tells me everything. they don't tell us everything. they tell us very little if anything. c-span: why did mom agreed to do this? >> guest: it's interesting when i first set out doing these interviews i've obviously i will call on my dad's old friends, and i got about three or four interviews. i did 85 interviews in total, 35 interviews or in the film. then i started thinking i will talk to people like james schlesinger, brent scowcroft, hopefully donald rumsfeld, people of that ilk, generals, admirals, when my going to do that? c-span: and james schlesinger had been cia director. >> guest: he had been cia director before my father.

c-span: and brent scowcroft had been national security adviser to ash. some people of that ilk you can call them up and say hi, colby, maybe. they are not going to agree to an interview in less, -- so it probably took two days to write each of those e-mails, and attracting them in. so i started interviewing people. and then almost as an afterthought i said well, i think i will interview my mother. she will have something to say. and then the whole movie changed because she brought the human element. she brought the underneath. what are we doing? what is she doing? she's keeping him to a high moral standard. she is referred to the cia euphemistically as catholics and action. just like the fbi, especially in the early years. a lot of catholics, because they have a moral compass and the certainly offered it from a moral point of view, or at least you hope they do. religion, morality is part of their mind set. and it was part of mine too because i went to gonzaga -- c-span: here in town? >> guest: here in d.c..

and i went to georgetown, so i was surrounded by the jesuits. and it made you think. we were taken as boys to the march on washington. the tent city. and the priests would say what you think? is this legal? should they be here without a permit? is there a greater cause at work here? what do you boys think? would you 14-year-olds think? that's the best education i ever got. but you're point, my mother lived the life. she was his partner. she may not have known very many secrets, or any secrets of all, but she supported a member of the club. she was not a member, but she supported the membership; just like we all did. i remember once i had been in indonesia, and i said i met mr. x, fantastic guy, you know, really wonderful. he says really nice things about you too. he said never repeat his name again so what i meant by -- late to prevent is well, he's obviously operating in deep cover. my little part of the game, part of my job is to support my dad;

just don't mention his name and people would come to the house sometimes and i think back. why is that monsignor here? who was that general? did you see that general on the front page. or who was that bicyclist that would come by once in awhile and he seemed to exchange notes with and sent him on his way with a low packet of money? is that just charity? so there's always something else going on to read my team in life, what i grew -- everybody was kind of a touchstone in line is things are not with the scene. c-span: how much of relationship did you have with the cia in this project? >> guest: i was treated like a normal citizen with the cia. i call that the cia to ask for different biographies or if they had any material on the footage or any archival material, or any unclassified material on my father coming into the eventually gave me a book about pacification that they had redacted and so i looked at that.

and no offical cooperation at all. and i preferred that. its arm's length. c-span: sure you are in the documentary talking about your father. he was in pretty good shape. 6:00 in the morning, canadian air force exercises, pushups, jumping jacks, legs going up and down. he called me sport and he kind of liked me. when he was unaware that you, you were friend. listened, friend. if you had really done something badly, get to the build out. he didn't like flying. he certainly believed in corporal punishment. among friends he could be relaxed. welcome frankly he didn't have any friends. he had people he worked with. he didn't have a lot of romantic ideas about spelling. he saw it for what it was, a dirty business. c-span: held hall was he? >> guest: he was my height, about 5-foot 8 inches. when he was a major repair shooting into norway, he was 125 towns, 5-foot 8 inches tall, he

would ski. he was all heart. he was all heart. c-span: of catholic was he? >> guest: he was very catholic growing up. i'd say after he leaves the cia things take another turn. but i come as you can see from the clip, i sort of provocative things about him, but at the same time to me, were really honest things. when i say he didn't have any friends, he was obviously friendly with the people in the agency, but it was a club. and there's not a lot of room for the all cider, the insurance salesman, to sort of be part of this clich. they like to talk to each other. the all cleared 150 to 200,000 people in the washington area right now who have a top

security secret clearance. i assure the main goal of the bridge club or the soccer game with other people, but when push comes to shove, they are on that team and they are on it to win and i think it's quite compartmentalized, and that is what my father's life was like. c-span: why would we not suspect that you are a member of the cia? [laughter] >> guest: i don't think so. why would i be of making movies and so on? >> guest: c-span: it could all be part of the disinformation or information of the cia. >> guest: that would be wild. that's like camewho visit my fas accusing him of being part of the plot to kill jfk. my father was very patient person, but i think he really ended up throwing oliver stone out of the house. and i know oliver stone and i would -- i would throw him out, too he really can be aboard. in the and it makes you think there's only to people who were not involved in the jfk

assassination according to stone, himself, oliver stone, and harvey austal. c-span: and your family have five kids. >> guest: yes. c-span: where are they all? -- but my others are here in washington. c-span: and what do they do? any of them in the cia? >> guest: no, no, no cia did a little mix of government and business. c-span: where do you fit in the fight? >> guest: i'm in the middle, smack in the middle. i had an older brother come older sister, younger brother, younger sister. c-span: when did you know you're going to be a documentarian? >> guest: that's a good question. i.e. was either going to be a diplomat, and then maybe an art dealer. never cia because my father had the top job. how could i be a clandestine officer? and he encouraged us to move and the other direction, and his father had been a writer; i started writing. then i need a movie about an artist named gene davis who was here in washington and painted stripe paintings and people

liked it, and i kept going. maybe i should have done something else, but kind of kept going. i liked having a point of view. c-span, a documentary is have you done? >> guest: probably more than 35 to 40 different subjects. a lot of profiles, so goes back to that question why did i never or profile my father earlier? but i think when the subject is right there in front of you it's a little harder. i did a film on the artist franz kline, and this might have triggered a long time ago my thinking of something on my father because franz kline was an abstract expressionist painter in the dillinger 1950's and 60's, big friend of the cooings and all. and when i did the film everybody had a different thing to say about franz kline. that he was a kind of bastard, and in his life. and then someone else come what he was the most charming person, wonderful, could have a drink with him any time, any time of the day. and in a way i saw different aspects of life father. so that's why the movie is

called man nobody knew. c-span, a tool used to work for the cia? >> guest: i'd say he worked for the cia from say 1950 to 1976. c-span: how long was he the director and what years? >> guest: he was the director of the cia from 1973 to 1976. he came in after schlesinger, who had only been there for 15 weeks. and then he was looked around with that saturday night massacre or whatever we're schlesinger went to defense and my father stayed at the cia, but become the top. and was appointed by nixon and then when nixon fell, ford kept him on for a short time. but the crowd around four, rumsfeld, schlesinger also, cheney, kissinger, scowcroft, i think that they just saw that my father was spilling the beans. and she was giving away too many of the secrets of the cia, which he didn't need to do that all the time. c-span: one of the remaining controversy of issues around the vietnam is a man named diem,

spelled d-i-e-m. going to show a clip in a moment. but what role did diem play in your father's life? >> guest: diem, the president ngo dinh diem, president of south vietnam in the 50's and early 60's and his brother, ngo dinh nu metcalfe clich. they will control the country very strongly, very eerie parallels to jfk and rfk. and my father was tasked as the head of the cia station to be in constant contact with ngo dinh nu who controlled the special forces,; was really kind of the fixture in the the strong man in the relationship with his brother. and things started to unravel because we started with a pass vacation program earlier. counter insurgency with strategic hamlets and all. and it seems to be working. but in the american military got impatient with special forces being used in a sort of advisory role, and building villages. they wanted them to go out and

find, fix and calfee enemy. so diem got in hot water. he was a catholic and a buddhist country and he and his brother, especially his brother, ngo dinh nu, went after the buddhist and then a buddhist set himself on fire and killed himself. it was a huge incident. flash all around the world. his wife didn't tell either, madam nu, saying that the buddhists were barbecuing other monks. can you imagine? support for the ngo dinh diem gt was falling. but my father was a believer in the diem government, at least in the stability over chaos. but then there was a coup, instigated in part by americans and certainly henry cabot lodge, the u.s. ambassador the time out there, and then things really unraveled. because it was a succession of generals in charge, and i don't think had the confidence of the vietnamese people. c-span: diem was president of south vietnam would years?

>> guest: and 50s, all the way for the 50's, 54 on through 1963. when he was killed in a coup with his brother. c-span: so jade as que was president when he was called? >> guest: john f. kennedy died only three weeks after the assassination of president diem. c-span: you're is the clip of your mother and tim weiner of "the new york times" talking. >> guest: right. >> november, 63, i was at a mass that morning. and you're father came into the church, little flower in bethesda and said pray for the diem brothers. pray for the souls of the diem brothers. they have been found murdered, which was a shock, a terrible shock to. bills paid for that mass and we prayed fervently for president diem and his brother. what was so difficult about it was that in hindsight that an immediate hindsight we have to

-- we americans have to realize that we bore some -- share in this tragedy. i -- not personally, but some how things went wrong somehow. this was an extraordinary moment of the presidential carelessness and the result was a president and his brother, which their hands tied behind their back and the bullets in their head. and a shattered illusion which is that we were building a democracy in vietnam. it was only three weeks later that john kennedy was killed. lyndon johnson said when he found out what the will of the united states was we just got a bunch of thugs and told them. the u.s. responsibility for diem's death was absolutely

clear. and once that was done, it became not the south vietnamese war against the north, it was our war. the albatross around our neck and was hours from then on and. c-span: who was the last gentleman? >> guest: the last gentleman was hugh tovar, t-o-v-a-r, a legendary release cia station chief and operative in indonesia laos, extraordinary individual. really cut out of the same cloth as my father. a tremendously loyal, diligent, extraordinarily intelligent, extremely well connected, just the judgment, and the sense of history. can you imagine cherry picking the very best in america to study the history, speak the language and send them in there? and they will get to know the general; they will get to know the police. actually one of my dad's friends, robert myers, former deputy chief of the far east division and publisher for the new republic and many other things in washington, a onetime

told me -- i said well, what about the diplomats, told the diplomats told? and he goes diplomats aren't worth anything. the only people you really want to talk to and want to talk to in one of these countries are the military and the police. it gives you an idea of what kind of realpolitik local harsh world we are talking about. c-span: do we know today what ordered -- ordered the assassination of the diem brothers? >> guest: well, apparently it was kind of a call a general big men and a couple of the his cohorts. and it's hard to say exactly how that went down. there was a plan to steer it diem and ngo dinh nu out of the country. but things went badly and were

killed in the personnel carrier outside of saigon. c-span: try blogs wanted a change and was hellbent on affecting the change in government, and you have to see the film tough exchange between john f. kennedy, robert kennedy, mcnamara, my father, a brusque, the whole crowd mulling over. should it happen or should it not? to present vantage toying with the world? >> guest: in that group lodge was the running mate of nixon and 60 for massachusetts? >> guest: exactly. c-span: you had george bundy who was a republican from harvard. >> guest: yes. welcome he was a big favorite of jfk. but harvard mafia.

c-span: national security council. and you had robert mcnamara, who is also supposedly a republican, past president of ford motor, but here they are sitting around and i remember from the film i think that bobby kennedy was against an assassination. >> guest: bobby kennedy was against the botched coup. he didn't want that to happen and unravel and diem to be taken out and die; and what options do they have? he eerily says it's not like the two in south america or in iraq, and some country like that where we can control. he thought the whole thing could go south. and when you hear that you think will do you think they did against the coup? but there were conflicting forces at work here. and i think launch, as you said, having been the vice presidential running mate of nixon, he was a very powerful man in his own right, and i think that he took the job of the investor out there to set things right. the way he wanted to do it. c-span: how long had he been there when the coup happened? >> guest: since a few weeks. and as rusk i believe and

harriman and jfk ruefully note, he had only been there once may be, once as a reporter on a trip. c-span: whose idea was it to make an ambassador to south vietnam from the united states? >> guest: it was jfk's idea to have him be the ambassador. really gets to provide coverage on the republican side of the capitol hill, said that it was a shared war. a wasn't going to be a democratic war. c-span: what is your opinion after your studied this? would john f. kennedy have gotten out of the vietnam if he had not been assassinated and had been reelected? >> guest: strangely enough, my father thought that rye of que deacons -- rfk and 68 -- even though he was on the campaign hustings saying we are going to get out of the viet nam, it is immoral, he felt that robert kennedy was somebody he could work with that we'd have gotten out of the vietnam war gradually. i think my father would have felt that john f. kennedy had

approved 500,000 troops in vietnam and he would have fought really the more quiet war, the secret war, the special forces war; kind of the war that we are fighting in afghanistan now. c-span: back to your document to come a minute and have on your father's assignment to vietnam and the role that you're deceased sister played in all of that. >> it was a lengthy assignment. he came back periodically. we would go to vermont to carry on life. he was doing what he was called, to serve, and he did. he did it capably. when it comes to long separations, my mother was at loose ends. she lost the center out of her life. it was jury hard for her. a year or so into his being there, my sister, katherine, became ill. she had epilepsy since she was a child, terrible seizures. she developed anorexia madrassa. it was awful.

my mother took all the suffering of my sister. she would make it go away for my father. there couldn't be any other way. anything for the mission. i remember i looked over at her one evening, she was riding in a letter i think in vietnam. i saw that she was a woman, not just my mother. she was lonely. she hadn't signed up for this, but she did it. c-span: how well did you know your sister? >> guest: quite well. she was only two years older than i was. she was not as socialize i was coming and she had epilepsy from an early age. so she was different, she was kind of the odd dhaka as they used to say. but very bright, spoke four languages, wind and lived on a kubbutz in israel. extraordinary, and then she had to come home because they found

out she had epilepsy and said we can't care for you out here. she said well the medication is fine. all lot of ways she was the fiercest of all the siblings. she was a lot like my dad; she was a redhead, phyllis, spoke all languages, and intensely curious about the world. a fighter. c-span: one year did she die? >> guest: she died in 73. c-span: if you see a documentary of played major roles in their lives. brian >> guest: yes. c-span: how did you see it as one of her siblings? >> guest: well, it's a hard thing to say, but i think once she was dead and it was over and she was forgotten. i think my father's way of dealing with the world, if you can imagine your daughter dies at the same time as you're going before hearings in the senate for your approval, your confirmation as cia director and

they are growing about what they are calling an assassination program, in which you personally have supervised the killing or you have said the policy or the architect of a program that was killed and more than 29,000 vietnamese, by that they are viet cong or sympathizers. the was a tough character. c-span: did the committee or the public know that he was losing a daughter during that time? >> guest: i don't think so, and a few people in the white house might have known, but my father wasn't anyone to ever seek kind of a pastore secure sympathy for his predicament. he's not built that way. c-span: more of -- >> guest: i can tell you that once an old washington stand -- stan tempco who was managing director of covington and burleigh and my father's best man in his wedding, a onetime

told me colby, your dad could be sitting across from you just like you are now with you come in and he could be talking about gaddafi or the weather or someone could be selling off his right arm, and he wouldn't so much as flange. c-span: i was starting to say that more of your mom's anguish from the documentary. >> guest: yes. people would turn to me and say you know, your dad was a murderer. my immediate reaction yesterday you don't know you're talking about today and then i found myself thinking was he? or who was he really? it's a very difficult field really. those who served have loyalty to the end of the deacons agency itself, but certainly must have in our loyalties in their code of behavior, which they would not violate. and one has to take on faith and trust that the right thing is being done and perhaps the --

for the greater good -- it's very difficult life find to explain. c-span: where did you do these interviews with your mother and how many days did you spend with that project? >> guest: i did interviews with my mother twice on camera. in hd in a studio like this. very comfortable with a cameraman, gary steele who was one of my oldest friends, so it was a little bit like family. and she's a very, a con five --

convivial person, she's kind of like barbara stanwyck with an ivy league education. she's very vivacious. she liked being interviewed. c-span: would year did you do those? >> guest: i did those a few years ago. and then i did audio interviews with her as well. i would go over to her apartment and we would sit and talk and grace would sit and record. a mother and son about things. about the life and her life. and what came out of that. i like the starkness of being in a studio where you can concentrate your thoughts like this read a studio that you have, and it enables you, if you are good questioner like you are come to focus your attention, and keep driving and getting at those little nuggets that maybe will spell out.

because remember, you're dealing with somebody, at least my father, and my other in some ways as well. those are hard nuts to crack. it's like peeling an onion. you get the one leader, it looks just like the other one. another one, translucent. my god i'm not learning a thing. what is that a blemish? is that leading the summer? practicing the art of deception. i wouldn't say my mother was, but certainly my father. c-span: what year did your father die? >> guest: he died in 1996. c-span: and his mom still alive? >> guest: yes, but he had remarried. c-span: is she still alive? >> guest: yes, she is. absolutely. she came to the opening show in washington last friday. c-span: this is probably gratuitous but your mom never looked better than she does in that film. she looks better with age. >> guest: i told her that. people come up to me and feeders because i do q&a and anybody who's watching this would love

to come to the theater on opening weekends because i usually there, but diversity, and we do q&a and people grip me and say my god, your mother is extraordinary. she looks more beautiful now and she did her younger years. and i guess just her spirit. she's kind of that indomitable spirit. she's world war ii generation. i will give you a little insight. i didn't put it in the film, but while we interviewed her, we were talking about iraq and afghanistan, and she said where's my sacrifice? what am i being asked to do? where is my part in this war? if we are at war, give me something to do? maybe i should ration? or maybe i should go visit the va hospital or wrap and it is? and part of this. where's my sacrifice? c-span: quick clip. only 30 seconds with seymour hersh i ask you why you talk to him. >> i did learn from people inside the agency that there had been the second result family

jewels, and i had your father's one number and i called him. he did see me and he didn't lie to me. what he did was, if i said there were at least 120 cases of what you're breaking or wiretapping of american citizens in our country to the law become in america, he said my number is only 63; was a question of numbers. he did not back away from that question of wrongdoing and so that's one hell of a story. c-span: the fellow that broke the my lai story. >> guest: seymour hersh says a little bit more than what you might even imagine by what he just said. if you trace back to what he said, he said he was pivotal to the publishing of the story. so my father was the source in some ways of the story. c-span: the leaker. >> guest: the leaker at top. you might say my god, why would he do that? i think my father was doing what he said he was going to do. he was going to keep the good secrets and let out the bad

secrets. there had been wrongdoing. 697 instances of assassination plots, experiments on human guinea pigs, torture suspected double agents on american soil. these are not opening the mail. this is not legal in america. so these are things that needed to be revealed as past indiscretions have wrongdoing and illegal acts from the eisenhower administration and done word but he wasn't going to reveal the number of agents and the operational details or histories probably would have not served us well. c-span: this goes back to what use it on jim baker on 9/11 and that colby was responsible. >> guest: people think the cia has never recovered from my father spilling the beans because it set up a culture of exposure of leaking conagra's

being overly zealous and its attention to what the cia is up to. robert gates i interviewed as well and the cia doesn't like being on the front page. they should be an ominous to prattle, they are a secret organization. c-span: gates isn't in this as well. you said you did 85 interviews, 35 are in it. what are you doing with the rest of the material? >> guest: the rest is quite extraordinary will come out as the disbanded dtv and other follow-up programs we may do. so keep in tune, but dates for instance is an extraordinary person because he has humility, he has deep understanding, and he also told me he has the support from a very strong president during his contentious hearings which were about the iran contra whereas my father had little or no support from what would board calls in the film for the accidental

president. c-span: when is the dvd coming out? >> guest: probably next summer. c-span: i'm going to show a clip next. this was a surprise to me when i watched the documentary. i don't know where i missed this. let's run it and you can tell us about it. >> i'm not sure he ever loved someone and i never heard him say anything heartfelt. by the time i turned 40i came to understand the man that nobody knew or at least i thought i did >> when he said i want a divorce i was really knocked over, very surprised and shocked. i said we are catholic we don't believe in divorce. so there goes the catholicism. i mean, i don't know. he was a dedicated public servant who gave his best to his work and i and we had a good family life as long as it lasted

he -- i guess i would say he was a complicated person whom i didn't know as well as i would hope to think i do. c-span: when i was watching the life of -- and yet related stopped me dead because i didn't know. but i wondered why in the world would she have cooperated with you to -- because up until that point, it's all very sympathetic. >> guest: my mother is an honest person and she has courage, and she his character. i think she's not afraid to face the truth. my father changed in my opinion after he was thrown out of the agency. i think if you watch the film closely and study him, he's a soldier. he took on the toughest, dirtiest assignments given to him by the president's by eisenhower onward. but when it came time for the president, ford in this case, to ask him to lobby and mislead congress, he couldn't do it. where's the authority? moral or otherwise, as woodward says in the film. then he sided with the constitution. it was of his obligation, to

remember being that liberal democratic lawyer from new york, law review, colombia, he knows the law. there's a very big law out there, article 1, congress has an authority and you can't speak falsely to congress or to the american people. c-span: he was fired in 1976 by gerald ford. >> guest: right. c-span: what was the -- was he given a reason why the president? >> guest: no. just going 32 times to his fight to capitol hill in one year. i think he had seriously lost control of that process. i think congress -- it was a witch hunt buy then. he had become the whipping boy. he had lost a lot of authority is the director of the central intelligence, and i think that the white house just wanted to get a handle on this, so they put george h. w. bush who was a friend of a lot of people in congress, and who was a politician, and congress is made up of politicians. and they could deal with a politician.

c-span: we found this from peter jennings newscast on the fifth month of the year, 16th day in the 1996, it's about a minute and a half, let's watch. >> in maryland today the body of william colby was recovered from a marshy area of the wicoco river. the former cia director a complex man who masterminded covert u.s. operations and then spent years repudiating them had been missing after taking a canoe trip eight days ago now. here is abc's's jack smith.

>> colby's wife, sally, who had continued until the end, to hold out hope he was alive spoke to reporters about her husband after identifying his body. there was not much that was left undone for him. he fought the facetious -- fascists and he fought the communists and he lived to see the democracy taking hold around the world. officials of the scene say there is no indication of foul play. we're still considering this a fatal boating accident, that starts being investigated at this point to the estimate colby, a lifelong spy was the perfect undercover agent. the traditional man he once wrote some inconspicuous he could never catch the leaders of a restaurant. he was fired as cia director in the 1970's after advocating a retreat from cloak and dagger

operations and continued raising eyebrows by advocating nuclear disarmament. president clinton issued a statement praising colby as a dedicated public servant who ably led the cia through a challenging time and sally colby echoed that fought offer from the river where her husband's body was found. >> his children and on his wife are very proud of him and very proud for what he accomplished and what he brought to this world. >> jack smith, abc news, washington. c-span: jack smith, who is the son of howard k. smith reporting that. what is or what was your relationship with his second wife? >> guest: cordial. i would see him and her when i would visit washington in the 1980's and early 90's. you know here and there, every few months we get together and have dinner at his house. i kept up with my father on the telephone here and there. and i saw him a los angeles or in new york whenever i would be there. because i wasn't living in washington at the time. c-span: how do you think he died?

>> guest: well, i think he -- as the coroner's reports, probably a overexerted himself and had a heart attack or stroke while he was out peddling his canoe in the mid evening after he had had a few drinks, and to consult his favorite meal. but i have to say in my opinion on the heart back to a conversation i had had with him a few months before he died. i called him up, we were talking and i said by the way, your old friend, judge teater was found under a bridge in middlebury, vermont where he lives to me and he has advanced alzheimer's spent the night under a bridge he said that will never happen to me to realize it really? and my dad said yep. he said one day you're going to hear i was walking along a goat path on a greek island and i fell to the sea. and i said really? he said yes. just like that. he didn't want to the aarp card. he never accepted the senior discount. he got angry with me once when i

said you'd get a discount if you to cut flight on a senior discount. he didn't want to grow old. c-span: no evidence of foul play here or did you -- >> guest: no. i mean we looked into it and i assure the agency looked into it. and there wasn't any foul play. he had enemies but they had been a long time ago. c-span: what was your mother's reaction? >> guest: i think she was saddened that he was gone. she was of course not of the widow. she didn't receive the flag at arlington. but i think she was sada really that he was gone. she admired him. c-span: did you think any time that he took his own life? >> guest: no, i wouldn't -- >> guest: c-span: not like him? >> guest: not really like him, but i think he was done. i think he had done what he was going to do. >> guest: c-span: he was told?

>> guest: 76. c-span: what if he were here today and watched what was going on, certainly the last ten years in iraq were not quite ten, but eight years, the last ten years in afghanistan? >> guest: i think he would feel number one of the cia's ascendancy and with regard to the terms of the american people he would find that very favorable. i think what he would mean even question would be these persistent drought that tax and other such things. the drones to him would be perhaps not the most efficient way to deal with our enemy in the field. it's one thing to take our bin laden and a seal rid or to take out al-awlaki nh roane attack a senior al qaeda officials. but when you start using them against other metal level officials, death from above, it so antiseptic and as a kind of surgical but my dad, i think, what coldly think maybe it would be worth capturing that fellow, and i interrogated that fellow, and hope to god during that fellow. remember, remember that fellow,

lind, who the american held in the called him. a guy from sonoma county california, three years he rows of the era become a ghost pakistan and few more people like that? and i think my father highly valued in the end human intelligence; the relationships. just like you, brian, have in valuable relationships let's say in washington. you can't treat those. when it's brian on the phone, they know who you are. they can trust what you're going to say, and i think my father would like with the british system is really more. they didn't high year thousands of more people when a crisis hits. they just call the old boys back into the business. c-span: you're is your father. we found this in our archive and 1996, april 5th, just few weeks before he died. >> problem and the chinese will tell you the reason they favor the pakistan having a capability is because the indians do. and the basic argument is that

the pakistanis say we will foreswear nuclear capability of the indians will. and the indians will tell you they can't force where it as long as the chinese have it. so you have that tinker to evers to chance problem there as they just pass the ball and around among each other and continue to develop this capability they all say, i'm just doing it for my own protection because these other guys are doing it. c-span: had you ever heard of old tankers to evers to chance, the old baseball analogy? >> guest: i hadn't heard that one before. c-span: there he was near the end of his life talking about something that's still relevant today. >> guest: yes. i think that he was very farsighted. his nuclear freeze feelings back in the 80's. you know you've got george shultz, william perry, henry kissinger, calling basically for the american unilateral nuclear disarmament; that's something my father talked about in the 80's. but if he was a very attentively to active, he liked to have

influence. and as long as he could have his voice heard, the net was enough. c-span: you live where today? >> guest: i live in washington, d.c.. c-span: children? >> guest: yes. c-span: or the interested in this? >> guest: interested in what? c-span: this kind of information on their grandfather? >> guest: i think so. i have one child and he's -- he's just recently commissioned as an officer in the marine corps. c-span: so, what's -- what do you want folks to get out of this? >> guest: i'd like people to understand that what sacrifices being done for their sake by people like bill colby. there are thousands of women and men in the cia and special operations command more like the dhaka bill colby's of today. and tonight they are lifting off out of an air base in pakistan or yemen and we support them. is the american -- are the american people behind them? and is this president selling this secret war to the american people? because why would it not want to

happen would be for something to go awry a couple of bones get out of control, a bomb goes off in new york city subway station, and suddenly the cia is dragged up before congress again. and who is the whipping boy, david petraeus? not likely. he's probably one of the most respected men in america. there won't be bill colby. c-span: who didn't talk to you? >> guest: nobody really didn't talk to me to be i just tried to talk to dick cheyne and henry kissinger. i made some overtures and cheney was interested but he was working on his book and had a heart ailment issue. and then kissinger like it never really nailed down. by then i have already -- i was pretty far along in the film. c-span: the most voluble new thing in your film? >> guest: i would say scowcroft's honesty is really the show of how much opposition there was against my father's forthcoming testimony before congress was really revealing to

me. it shows the push and pull that all these secret operations are now wonder the looking glass. c-span: the name of the documentary is "the man nobody knew." that's william colby, who was the former cia director and you're father, carl coby. we are out of time and i think you very much. >> guest: thank you very much, brian. ..