an alliance with stalin propping up when hitler attacked he said the was bound to lead ultimately to the expansion of communism in the world and he felt vindicated and that prophecy. i think one of the interesting part about this book is his emphasis on the conference of 1943 as a lost opportunity for trying to rein in the unrealistic appetite of joseph stalin so that was somewhat surprising. i think what i find most often about the book, not quite surprising because i've known about it in other ways was the sheer energy that he poured into this. here is a man who in his eighties got up at 5:30 in the morning he was at his desk at six and would write until 6 o'clock the next evening for breakfast or lunch in the midafternoon coffee break. he was an only writing a

magnum-opus come he was writing other books and my favorite statistic between the ages of 85 and 90 he wrote seven books, published seven books but not the magnum-opus that mattered to him the most. ..

>> i don't know. he called that his crusade book. that is yet to to be published. >> host: hopefully you will bring it to us. that is an extraordinary accomplishment. we have been talking to george nash. the book is freedom the trade.

>> good evening. welcome to the mid manhattan branch of the newark public library. thank you for joining us. for two nights presentation comment tonight's program is a discussion led by the author of the book "no fear" a whistleblower's triumph over corruption and retaliation at the epa" after graduating from m.i.t., the author landed her dream job at the epa assisting post-apartheid south africa. her dream began a nightmare

when she attempted to investigate of multinational corporation responsible for the deaths of hundreds of south africans mining of the adm -- vanadium she blew the whistle and suffered the fallout from the employee's taking on the bureaucracy. her story is a struggle to bring protection to all federal employees facing retribution for telling the truth. before we begin i have the usual request please silence yourself phones, pagers, any other noisy devices that may interrupt the program. secondly, please do not take any pictures or make any recordings of this evening unless you have received a prior permission from the new york public library administration and rethink

you for your courtesy and consideration. tonight's program is being filmed by c-span and consequently at the end of the program, there will be a question and answer period. please wait for the microphone so we can record the questions you are asking for the program. our speaker to night is marsha coleman-adebayo ph.d., a founder of the no fear coalition and former senior policy analyst at the united states environmental protection agency. receiving her be a degree from barnard college in her doctorate from m.i.t.. in 1996 she became a federal whistle-blower in filed complaints about the west's company mining vanadium in south africa. with her leadership, the no fear coalition secured

passage of the notification of federal employees anti-discrimination and retaliation act. the no fear act. currently on the board of directors of this center which is a nonpartisan advocacy group featured in several newspapers of "the new york times", "the washington post" and the washington times. in addition, joining us tonight is a harlem a very -- native who was a filmmaker, journalist and media activist, his third film with features the story of the whistle-blower and human rights activist marsha coleman-adebayo. to 94 the book discussion starts we have the chance

to meet mr. washington to see part of the film so please welcome mr. washington [applause] >> thank you so much want to thank you for being here this evening. 84 facilitating the advent. i also want to thank the library here for hosting such an important forum and discussion especially in the climate today where people are constantly persecuted for telling the truth and speaking up. we have a culture in this country that punishes people for doing what is true and right to. not on my watch is the a good diet that will finish last. this is a sure we're currently working with

fund-raising to do a much fuller peace because there are other dimensions other things that will be revealed you can go to our website to find out if you so desire to be a part of the film business to help make this film a reality. as you know, , independent filmmakers and journalist, we have to do a lot of these things out of pocket to rely on people just like you. i also have to a knowledge c-span for covering this story is you don't see on mainstream media. so if you have entities like

c-span that have the courage and the insight to videotape these are important issues that needs to be applauded. [applause] our nation is dependent on people like marsha coleman-adebayo. people who stepped up for what is right even if it is not popular because people don't know she was threatened. her children was about to be kidnapped because she is concerned about people who depended on them to put food on the table and nobody else seemed to care and wanted to

decorate the room and receive good may 2nd or about it. how many people here were faced with a similar situation for us to just look away? that is why you have bernie madoff and folks who occupy wall street it is so repugnant for the demonstrators being sprayed nine of the other offices say this is not policy. you would see for the first time a police officer being arrested by another police officer.

to see these things that go on the golan. it is a much larger piece and then finally we will introduce marsha coleman-adebayo. >> ♪ >> renewable energy field setter getting investors a 10 chin calling empty 70 the element to change the world. >> the drive for renewable energy is calling for a

plush of storage devices said new generations battery system for, the next company produces the metall vanadium >> the possibility it is used in green technology the storage of solar power. >> the company that provides will die megawatt storage solutions, using come i have no idea what this is is, vanadium fuel cells. that is one of the coolest things i have ever said out loud. [laughter] ♪

>> my husband. [speaking native language] tongue >>

spec by a disc of bereday had been poisoned by a multinational corporation and when i reported it the ceiling fell down on my head. my supervisors told me to shut up and not talk about it. it takes a lot of courage to talk about your experience. we have a lot of restriction in the united states when you speak out the state of oftentimes punish you for speaking out. >> marsha coleman-adebayo as senior analyst at the epa 10 years and claims it has been a decade of discrimination. >> i was an intruder in their world i could anticipate high-level staff meetings i was told only because my colleagues regarded me as the honorary

white man. i must admit i was so stunned i remember hearing the laughter from around the table. >> she and other employees took their case to congress to of gun that epa chief carol browner. >> >> she told the issue was unaware of any complaints. >> rainn more than doubled the number of minorities. >> 2 million of us in the agency and they all live and how. >> today i joined with the city to honor one person, dr. marsha coleman-adebayo, a leader in the struggle for civil rights. >> while these a tax break my spirit i decided to weigh the struggle of human dignity and integrity. >> dr. coleman-adebayo won

the historic lawsuit against the federal agency made on racial and sexual discrimination and a hostile work environment. >> my name is marsha coleman-adebayo. i thank god for this day. >> as a result of this victory in her subsequent testimony before congress and then no fear act was passed by congress signed into law. after passage of this important legislation and dr. coleman-adebayo fit -- formed the no fear coalition a group of solar arrays and whistle-blower organization working for increase legislative protections from those federal employees who speak out. >> she eventually won her court case it sounds a lot like "erin brockovich" her storey can also make it to the big screen danny glover is preparing a movie based

on her story. >> because we are working on a film of her courageous fight for justice. it is a victory not only for march showed that women are all human beings who stand up to justice, who stand up to say no. who stand up a. ♪

♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ a. [applause] hef's thank you for word your applause of the really goes to marcia up. everytime i see this piece off i get choked up again just to know decimus people

that are in the film are not here. it is not necessary for them not to be here because people were creating and people were selfish. i am glad marshall was in their lives in but it is important each of you may get your business not only to purchase the book, the purchase to of them if you are an educator and you work with your church, you need to make this information available to your congregation, your students. to have the of a discussion. i have a daughter who was 17 she read that book in a weekend. she asked so many questions. you can talk to high schoolers, a college, they can get the information that is in the book is a perfect

christmas gift. would never have a book or two in one on the table one that marsha will hopefully autograph for you this evening. we have to support the good work. freedom is not free. to make people aware that era going on is part of the reality and if she can do its maybe 125 pounds soaking wet. [laughter] you can stand up for you are in your job right where you are if something is going on or not correct, stand-up in the face of adversity. i am sure she has heard this before but to me she really is the rosa parks of our generation spearheaded the only civil-rights law to be passed since the 1960's come up by the way not one dissenting vote to in this legislation and she was the

only person who had this done with a coalition. not just her struggle but she could find common ground was so many other organizations to bring those people together. this is a testimony to the fact any legislator things with marshes integrity and commitment would be an audit of the sacrifice and courage she is a shining example for all of us ladies and gentlemen, it is truly my privilege to introduce to you dr. marsha coleman-adebayo. [applause] >> good evening. so many thanks to so many

people i am so incredibly honored to be here tonight to have this opportunity to engage you in of dialogue and a conversation about our country and reared is going. first, let me think deborah from the mid manhattan library for the telephone calls and emails for preparing for this evening also my beautiful introduction. and you saw his work can we please give him another round of applause? [applause] we depend on independent filmmakers to tell us the other side of this story and he could work and hollywood or a fancy production company be here he is in the community providing information for all of us so that we understand our world a bit better. of also like to think danny

glover because he provided the film crew so we could introduce you to the native victims. he provided the resources for the crew, the production team and i am eternally grateful to him for that. he has also optioned the book for a feature from. so they q2 danny glover in cyberspace also my husband who could not make it to sniper i have colleagues year from barnard college and m.i.t. and am so grateful that you all have decided to spend your evening with us. and starting the introduction with the reading from the buck. >> this is the first paragraph. >> they came to me. complaining of green tongues.

they told me about bleeding from every orifice. the husband's could no longer performed the sheet on his side of the bled would -- bad would be black from whatever it was that board -- news from his four is why he tried to sleeper goes some had photograph their husbands who had died at the age of 50 but looked like 95 and there are reports of many dead and many dieing the company would not help. they would not even let them see their own x-rays. it was an american company. they had come to me. to them, i was america. i worked for the united states environmental protection agency and america said the to them in joy and celebration at the end of apartheid. america had come to help

them in to help their new government. in government we spend so much time spending the truth. there are times when as citizens however we need to set pretense aside and cut to the chase and spit out the truth in that is what i am going to do tonight. we will start with my favorite story about a whistle-blower. december 1st, 1955. montgomery alabama up. the bus driver said to a group of black folks on the bus, but you better make it might find yourself and let me have this eat. when the bus driver realized there was still 1% sitting while the others had gone to the back he came over to the young woman and said did you

hear me? you better make it to the back of the bus. when he did not receive a reply he said william the dorsey to? the young lady said, no. under normal circumstances this is clearly intimidating to have a bus driver tell you what to do that with this happens in 1955 to montgomery alabama there is less than line between the ku close klan and a bus driver meaning he probably owed his job to the local klan organization they controlled the municipal and share of offices so when the bus driver asks this young lady to the bit was with authority that was not bequeathed to him through of bus driver but something

much more powerful that is the power of violence. he asked her again. will you leave your seat? and the young lady said no. then the bus driver told her , if you don't leave your seat i will have you arrested. what does she say? she said. you may do that. you may do that. is some point* we have all experienced someone in authority telling us to do something that we know is wrong. how many of us have the courage of that young woman to say you may do that. for example, i hear this all the time. my bus says the must report the discrepancy in our financial situation and if i do he will fire me. what if your boss is the president of united states?

and he tells you to stand down on clean-air regulations. but you know, that if you stand down on clean-air regulations that thousands of people will die. but your job is on the line. how many heads of agencies would have the courage of that young woman to say no? and if the president is threatening your position to ask for your resignation, would you have the courage to say you may do that? everybody has a rosa parks moment. my rosa parks moment came at the environmental protection agency. i joined the eight -- epa 1990 is a senior foreign policy analyst after working

at the world wildlife fund and various dance has a professor and i had never before worked anywhere as stifling, racist, sexist, an ti-democratic as the u.s. environmental protection agency. the environment within the epa reminded me of the 21st century plantation. the system was held together by the intricate web of the year retaliation, a fear of losing your health insurance, a fear of saying the wrong thing. the mother of all fear what really kept the system together was the fear of losing your job. sophie year is the ever present to gift in the federal government. if you don't believe me, ask bradley manning.

asked daniel else byrd. matthew comment on year, all targeted by the government for retaliation for speaking out against corruption. it is the fear from exposing corruption it is this kind of fear that keeps good people from sounding the alarm when they found out there is lead in the water and mercury in the food or a basketball coach is molesting 10 year-old boy is. fear. i became that adp a representative to the commission in 1996. of the commission was designated as the flagship between the u.s. and newly elected government of nelson mandela. my job was to work with the

south african department of tourism to provide humanitarian assistance for those who had been so devastated by wrote decades of reese's role. not long after i assumed this position i was approached by a south african environment tall leader named jacob. and he told me about a community two hours from the capital where miners were reported the being injured and dying from exposure to the vanadium pentoxide a medal zero used to strengthen steel. he described workers who bled from every orifice, bettongs turned green sometimes brown or black. and when i reported this situation to my supervisor, a situation that anybody would consider horrific, but particularly if you work for the epa, she told me to shut up.

as she went on to explain since i had moved into a brand-new office what i really need to do is spend my time decorating it. i was shocked. i just told an epa officials that on my duty station people were reported the dying from a substance from a u.s. company that is responsible and i was told to shut up. in fact, it was really told i needed to have a martha stewart moment. i would learn whenever there was a decision to be made between a multinational company and the health of people, almost always the decision is made in favor of the corporation.

a little bit about of who i am and my background. growing gap in detroit michigan, the civil-rights movement and said these rate motown revolution was my backdrop. when i was really good my mom would take me to the reverend franklin church to hear or wreath of saying in her daddy's choir. said emmett till murder shocked my community in my grandfather ran a friend tom send worked with other ministers welcoming martin luther king, jr. for the first visitation of the "i have a dream" speech. my grandmother was of member of the market scarf the back to africa movement and she fought the kkk and her small

southern town. my granny kept a shotgun right by her front door a 00 shotgun. a i used to times would visit her in the summer, why do you have a shotgun? right by your front door? and mike greenwood look at me and put her hands on her hips and say marsha, if any of those pointy head people try to come through my door, and this is the last or they will ever come through in ohio. that was my grandmother. my mother fought the detroit school system when it tried to track me into special education. i remember coming home with a card that said i was special. and telling my mom. the schools as i am special. i am in a special education program and my mother very

patient and loving said you are special but not the way that they mean. so the next day getting ready to go to school my mom was waiting for me at the door and said we will go to school together. we walked into the other, and the only one walking in with my mom. she took my hand and said you are coming with me and took me to the principal's office and said marsha, down. i thought what kph did i do this time? she made it known she had to sit -- see the principle now. of the secretary started to scurry about then my mom went into his office and she was a very soft-spoken person but this time i heard loud noise i had never heard my mother screamed and screech and then things

started to fall off the wall and i looked at the secretary and in favor looking like should be called the police? i thought they will call my mom a. but then the principal came out and said my mom made him understand that he had erred placing me in special education and in fact, he said my mom had convinced him that i belong in a college prep and my mother cleared her throat and he said i am sorry she belongs in the honors program. that was the power of my mother. in one hour i was transferred from special education to the honors program. she told me that night she was prepared to go to jail that day. the issue was not prepared for the detroit school

system to kill her dream. i drop around strong activist women who had a very strong moral compass. so when the epa asked me to look the other way and not do everything in my power to help the victims of vanadium poisoning, i said no. i said no. it was simply not a part of my dna. when that epa closed its doors on the victims of vanadium poisoning i reached out to civil society and the people and contacted my girlfriend who are medical doctors say would you mind go to south africa with me because we still have to investigate. if united states government will not do with and we will do it ourselves. after the first visit to south africa i reached out

to barnard college and i beg to them and said we need professors and students and we have to investigate vanadium and what did my college say? they said yes. how many professors and how many students? we took two professors and for students and we investigated and continued to investigate vanadium poisoning. the epa and firemen for me was a very difficult place. as you saw i was called uppity, you can fill in the gap, honorary white man, aggressive, everything you can imagine. that was in the workplace not on their time but in the workplace. and i constantly had to worry about the very fine

line of managers in suffering the brutality of their anger. let me give you an example of really what a day was like for me in that environment. i was called into the office of the assistant secretary of office of international activities than i did not know why i was called in but the secretary said you have to get upstairs the boss wants to see you. so i wanted to see what he wanted to talk about. marsha, why don't you just go down to the office of

civil rights and file a complaint? i was not sure if i was interrupting their rantings of a lunatic or an invisible visitor of a conversation in he was having with himself. yelling at the top of his lungs and banging his fist on the table he sat behind. what you talking about? i repeatedly asked? i felt ambushed and paralyzed by could not getting enough air and i felt i had taken up plunge to the solar plexus. i don't the key heard me ask what was he talking about? in dallas that down looking for any alternate route of escape hoping the secretary would open the door to investigate the shouting and banging. we did have these kinds of problems and tell you people

came here he said. what are you talking about? i have no idea. i tried to interject but dealing intensified the face getting closer and closer to mind to feel the heat radiating from his skin and i could feel particles a recently interested to know. his eyes were bulging and his face turned bright red. he had worked himself into a self induced frenzy pounding the table yelling again file a complaint. i am sick of this. stop shouting at me i demanded using every nerve in my body. i stared him down. get out of my face. i said slowly but firmly and he moved back i could find a

breeze for the first time since entering the office. one of your colleagues told me you made an inappropriate comment. this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. do you understand? his voice started to rise again. you have the wrong black%. franklin attended that meeting. not me. quickly picked up my notepad and headed for the door. the next time you decide somebody and and you let them get the right person because we don't all look alike. >> if you want to understand the culture of that epa or the federal government government, follow the money. follow the money.

when my lawyer confronted him in federal court and he admitted to what you heard, his punishment was in detail to the white house. and now under the jackson administration is director of the epa office of sustainable glut -- development. the reality is managers that discriminate are reported, not punish. or for example, take the example of former epa administrator that you saw in this clip whose career ended in total disgrace after my child because she was attempting to defend retaliating managers congress condemn terror, passed a law because of the activities but one of the first act of obama was

to recycle browner into the process to resuscitate it a role as the new energy czar. so if you want to understand the culture of the federal government is so dysfunctional and psychotic, a follow what it does and not what it says. so isuzu the epa, led the agency come on august 18, 2000, a jury declared the epa was guilty of racism, sexism, but color discrimination as well as a hostile work environment. but what was happening to me was happening throughout the federal government. different people, different situations but a remarkable pattern of similarity. and it was that unbearable situation providing the of fertile ground for the no

fear coalition and after my testimony congresswoman sheila jackson lee introduced the no fear act. then no fear coalition consisted of the most courageous individuals in the federal government. took two long years we march and water issues on capitol hill and talk to anybody who would stand still for two minutes to listen to what is going on in the federal government and the first boat for the bill was scheduled september 11th september 11th, 2001. we were on the steps of the capital when the security officers scream from the top of the stairs, run for your life. and after that we saw the smoke billowing from the pentagon. after 9/11, we regrouped in continue to fight. votes were rescheduled on

both sides and we prevailed in we triumphed. we passed the first civil rights and whistle-blower law of the 21st century from unanimous votes from both chambers of congress. what we accomplished with no fear coalition is an example of what people can do when they determine how powerful they are. we would continue to hold up position of collateral damage. the conditions we met in the federal government would never change. we decided to take back our power for anybody else in the eighth preference and the struggle was difficult. we lost people and they lost their jobs, their homes and a couple of casualties for people died in the struggle be kept marching and

fighting and we prevailed. so now we have introduced "no fear" ii and getting ready to introduce iii legislation that cannot take the place of people standing up to blow the whistle. that is why i support the occupied movement by have led to demonstrations one called occupy epa and we call upon the administrator and the president to reverse the decision on the clean-air regulation but we need more whistle-blowers. as a society we need somebody to blow the whistle at penn state. we need more whistle-blowers. everybody has a rosa parks moment when the words of ghandi become a rallying cry do not bend your knees before the oppressor. i have not stopped i will

not stop and i can stop. too fundamentally change windows back deal corporations that are by the people. with my third and last reading it is the most emotional of all of them but it sums up what this evening has been about. it is something i wrote called something deeper than words. something happens when a person and stands up to say i refuse. it is the first record are refused to give up my seat. i refuse to settle for less.

or refuse to look the of the way. is beyond that day today are the job description. is something deeper than words. older than anything we have ever known for our returns to us in that moment large and independent but something comes to life in our refusal and a singular creed that we must obey. thank you. [applause] >> could you explain about the goals of the agency enzi apartheid in south africa? can you explain in detail? >> was the executive secretary for the commission and of course, al gore and

other vice presidents came together as a two vice presidents to head up the commission. it was broken out by department of agriculture, epa, the department of defense. i was in the environment section. >> [inaudible] >> he was certainly aware. one day a number of people started to write letters to vice president gore about the situation. one day i came into my office if there was a package on my desk with the seal of the president of the united states. it took my breath away because it meant at first the white house is now involved and the vice president knew what was going on in. also meant they knew i was working with ngos in doing

my job to make sure the public was aware. and in the letter, the package said before we respond to a letter from randall robinson who was the president of transafrica, as the white house wanted to see our draft. it was quite clear that damage control was in place and they wanted to make sure we did not say anything at the epa that the white house did not know about. >> when i was an undergrad the big thing at that point* was strip mining. and we became very much aware of what was going on and i was against it. eventually people started to talk more about it. and it became against a law to strip mine. i am wondering, you did

mention but on a larger plane and the other question i have vanadium the it is in batteries? what does it do? did they get sick because it was left open or because they were working closely with vanadium? >> vanadium pentoxide is the metal very deep into the earth's crust. is used to strengthen steel. if you look around the room you could see things made of steel then there's a big chance vanadium is inside

this deal. vanadium is, at henry ford health foundation about how crucial it was because the model t kept cracking because in detroit, they have extreme weather. very hot and cold and in the winter is started to have problems because of this steel cracking. he found out about vanadium and putting that in this deal then the vehicle could go quite easily to expand and contract. but it comes out as a white grayfish metal but has a lot of contaminated dust around it and also has other toxic elements of. the minders are basically in the large pits digging out the vanadium with flimsy

gloves, almost no mascot wouldn't even use that to clean my house. they given a mask wants every six months. they're using their hands to cover their noses. the dust basically covers everything in this area. so of course, the dust blows up comes down as acid rain so the area around that field is dead with no trees or grass so it is very, very toxic. we understood it could be toxic when i went to south africa the first time when we never found in the literature the impact of vanadium on women. when we went to visit some of the homes of the 217 workers to see the wives were coughing and complaining of the same symptoms as their husband husband, we started to ask

questions and we found out the mind never provided instructions how to clean up before they came home so they're coming in with vanadium in their hair come under their fingernails then children sleeping in the same bet with their parents and their children were being impacted. >> i heard you today it was very interesting. went to the website afterwards and the comments, i felt there was a bunch of fox people. do you find people are not really ready to hear the kind of bigotry that exist in corporate america and in our society in general and also do you think as a

whistle-blower, even though there are tens of people who speak out, that people still plans to hold onto the idea that america is the land of honesty and freedom? >> i am feeling grateful i did not see the comments first of all. by am guessing that is in reaction to a question that he asked if i thought the epa should be closed down. what i said was no. we needed a real epa that was a really strong advocate for the people as opposed to corporations. is said if you were regulations are wanted more regulations. . .

how do we make sure we have clean water and clean air in this country. >> i'm sorry i just want a follow-up on that just because you that in did you said that after you for taken out the private sector people came in and i don't know if you are aware of john perkins confessions of an economic hit man can you speak to that a

little bit? i'm sorry it didn't want to monopolize the it is just important that people will understand what came next. >> well i think the best example of what you are talking about is the clean air regulation that i represent in the report is now a couple of weeks ago the epa had asked the president obama to sign the new small regulation and according to the reports by the administrative office these regulations would have saved the lives of over 7,000 people and would have prevented at least 11,000 asthma attacks. those are fairly large numbers. but, what happened is the president was being lobbied by the business and also the right wing of the republican party. and so yes, the epa

administrator stepped down on pushing the screen air regulations. so we have some decisions to make in this country about whether or not businesses are going to drive public health policy or whether science will drive public health policy. >> one of the other lectures that i attempted here learned that they are both used to strengthen steel. when did it become that important or was it a way as outsourcing the labor to other countries so there was cheaper -- how did that come about? >> it is a substitute him, but it's more extensive, and that is the problem in south africa is to have cheap labour plus you have a sheet metal and so those

to somehow put together and that is unfortunate because we do have substitutes but as long as something is more expensive and you have cheap labor at this point we do not see any movement >> how many people died because of the prison in south africa? my number one question and the poisoning in south africa, is it getting better or what is the situation right now? >> the department in south africa doesn't keep those kind of statistics under apartheid. so we have no idea what happened before the onset of the nelson mandela government. and even now that the statistics have the need a lot of work and there is a lot of mixture going

on in terms of different environmental problems. some people are smoking and exposed so how do you begin to figure out a different kind of exposures people are experiencing, and that is the reason why we have the u.s. government along with the south african government side to organize an independent research investigation. and that really would have been the first time that an independent investigator happened and i believe and i cannot prove this but i believe what happened is that when they saw how serious we were in terms of promoting the investigation probably a little phone call came through from people in the industry and told us to shut down the investigations. those are phone calls that you never really can prove. after working in the government you know they have been. but for whatever reason i was told to pull the plug.

i started yelling and screaming about this issue as you can imagine because the receiving phone calls saying they are ill and dying so i finally got the agency to agree to at least send a medical director to south africa at least to give some initial data in terms of what was going on. i was processing that request and i called to ask what his specialty was and you won't believe this. or maybe you will laughter my discussion he turned out to be a veterinarian. [laughter] >> i couldn't help but wonder so many from the lead probably knew before you started. i'm wondering what is the incentive someone has to have to

be involved to the extent that you did and also what is the first thing that the potential whistle-blower should do to protect before he gets involved or should he do that at all? >> thank you. >> one instance cannot be that you want to make a lot of money you have to laugh about these things. i think that there is a moral compass. i'm not really sure. certainly we have all in the private sector that will allow you to recover a portion of the fund so far recovered by the government or the agency, and so if it is a huge settlement than the whistleblower can recover i think up to 10%. but if you are a federal government worker, that doesn't allow the government worker. i think that is an issue of moral compass at this point for

federal government workers, and what we need are the laws that will protect us because quite frankly everyone in this room is vulnerable as long as we don't have the law to protect federal government whistleblowers. the water, air, food, is all translated through government agencies and if you have people in those agencies that are too afraid and fearful to speak out for the public than we are all at risk. and so, you know, it has to be almost a national good kind of thing where the public comes together and says we have to protect whistle-blowers because they are the first line of defense for democracy and the first line of defense for our safety, our personal safety in this country. in terms of your second question if i remember it correctly in terms of the whistle blower issue i'm sorry can you repeat your second question?

>> to become a whistle-blower what do you initially to protect yourself or to think about that just go ahead and follow moral conscience? you know there might be retaliation to what would you? you see a lawyer or to you talk to the families or priest or whatever. >> all of the above is very helpful. [laughter] you know, the reality that most people don't set out to become a whistle-blower you are working on a project and find a discrepancy. you don't realize you were going to end up being a whistle-blower you just ask your supervisor where there is a discrepancy and how do you think this discrepancy found its way into this report or you are reading or writing something like the report for example thinking of the ambassador who said that there was no iranian and always been a presidential address to say no, no i didn't tell you

that so most people do not set out to become whistle-blowers to be neutral on an issue and before you know what the people around you understand what you found and all of a sudden you begin to become the target. a lot of whistleblowers don't even know that they've blown the whistle. they don't even of the blown the whistle. they say something is not right here. and then the person who you said that too is thinking my god if she continues today she is going to find something. and so, in order to stop you from continuing to dig, they start to retaliate against you, and before you know you are at that point a whistle-blower because you figure out there is something wrong and so it is hard to tell people what to do in advance. when i went to my supervisor and said there is a community in south africa that seems to be suffering from this and we see

it in the report i had no idea what was going to happen to me. i had no idea that was 18 years i had no idea that the agency was going to react that way. in fact i thought my supervisor was going to see my daughter let's get on this. we cannot allow this to happen. look-see if we can't talk and make sense of this whole thing. but in fact what happened was the performance evaluation started going down from a poll playbook went into effect where the performance evaluation starts going down and you started getting notes in your personal files that you are not doing well even there you have been doing very well up until that time. i had just received i think a bronze medal for the performance of two weeks later received a notice my performance was failing. so it doesn't make any sense and that is the reason that i oneness' because maybe they are not the brightest but they just continue to harass you and they are putting everything in

writing so if there are any potential whistleblowers out there you think that you've tripped upon something that's not right. what i would say is start taking notes. start taking notes i would join a whistle-blower group, national whistle-blower center, national accountability come so many wonderful whistle-blower groups and coalitions to start talking to people come start to making sure that you keep your notes save some place that's safe where never in your house. make sure that at some point you have to consult an attorney if it becomes a legal matter but as i said most whistle-blower's never intend to blow to read they are made they are not born. >> [inaudible] >> the film that we saw is always very difficult for me to watch because the film took

place in a courtyard in the neck of a church and my daughter was with me on one of my missions and she was playing with the miners and i was interviewing the minors. you could probably hear my voice in the background. all of a sudden someone started yelling and i turned around and they have literally encircle my child. there she was eight or 9-years-old in the center of the workers and when i ran over to see what was going on they said that she was walking away with someone they knew who was an agent of the mine. when i asked she said she just told me she wanted to see something she wanted to take me to the front, and so they saved my daughter. they literally surrounded her and they took care of her and so i am just internally grateful for that, but its -- let me just say it's a difficult time for

women because not only are you double tasking in terms of going to work and also you do at home but now as a whistle-blower you are having to take on these responsibilities as well. but my kids have really benefited in many ways from my struggle and i think they would both tell you that even though i was very difficult, they understand something about justice now that a lot of their friends don't understand. >> do they plan to compensate them? my second question is do you have something i'm told in your report that isn't written in the report? >> we have to save that for the documentary film. >> unfortunately when i was pulled off of the project they

replaced me with a colleague who focuses is a private sector. that is the reality of it. the nelson mandela government had come to power and they thought that the government would be more receptive for someone who looked like me at that table and other people and what they wanted me to do is open the doors to american businesses and we realized that is what was going on that is when i started really yelling and screaming know i will not be used like this. so the government has not acknowledged that there is a problem. the issue of compensation is totally out of the question or the american company. now in fact if you go to their web site it's all about how great they are and they're building schools and building clinics and the company has never admitted wrongdoing.

>> i was wondering uranium has -- i wanted to ask you if it has uranium in eight periods there's nothing like nuclear energy or anything like that? okay. i was wondering because the nuclear energy used to break down in the molecule's of the radiation. so i was wondering whether you should concentrate on that area because the fact of the matter is that it does bring him come whether we know it is not safe or healthy for the people but i was wondering if there was some way that we could find something that they could use like for

instance if water saltwater to break down the molecular structure of the chemical then they would be able to work with the party and not get sick, so i was wondering whether anyone was working on that level. >> not that i know of. it's a very different than the gold mining and the mining is open pit mining. and so basically what you are doing is mining areas of three or four football fields long, so all of that dust is just going out into the atmosphere so it isn't contained. its dispersed and so, you know, what i would say about the generation come income generation is that mining tends

to be in intergenerational like to be. you find grandfathers' and fathers and sons mining in the same location whether that is climbing in west virginia or the mining in south africa. it is an error generational work. and so the question is how do we begin to develop a sustainable future for these communities where we don't have to disturb him that way and where we can train in these workers, these people to productive work as opposed to work that will harm them. >> i guess i have the microphone here. we are talking about the u.s. epa which i have a lot of very negative associations with, but we essentially neglected the role of any of the south african government who are fully cognizant of this who want their

materials and minerals to be exported to their people. all of the stuff around us happens to be virtually everything in this room is the result of an extract of metallurgy and mining and the ideas of the contrary is a pretty basic steel additive there are not any substitutes for that that are economically viable. but what has been done to get the south african government to get off their butts and to address this issue isn't really our problem is the south africans problem in this particular case we have made our problem what has been done if anything to get the south africans to step up to the plate. >> that is a 24 million-dollar question, isn't it? and i'm certainly not going to provide excuses for that. but i will say is one of the

legacies of apartheid. this must dependency on the mining sector as the country as you know is very rich in the minerals and environmental materials and the world has flocked to south africa for these materials whether it is gold. our economy is just as dependent on south africa and they are dependent upon us. that is the reality. this is a global economy and these economies are locked together. 80% of south africa's gmp is dependent upon the mining industry. it would mean the whole economy would come to a grinding halt. what about the gold mining? what about asbestos and rubber mining? if they stop mining then the

whole economy would come to a screeching halt. it is a challenge for the future south african policy makers how do they begin to restructure their economy so they are not so dependent on the activity that is so detrimental to their people. >> there is nothing intrinsically problematic about mining which is the name of our industrialized societies. can be made safe that we are talking here about pretty to be a pretty rudimentary hypogene relatively small investment. i think that it's not rocket science to protect these workers and is subject to think collective responsibility to suggest that it is. you can line a lot of really toxic stuff if you take the proper precautions and they are

obviously not being taken for a very small amount of additional one investment. estimate your not going to get an argument with me on that. that is the case. i would argue with the open pit mining is a little bit different than cave mining because even if you could protect the workers, in other words if they could work in a bubble suit which as you know it's very hot, very sticky, really difficult work when you are working in these suits. even if you could do that what happens to all of the dust going into the atmosphere and coming back down is acid rain so how do you protect the environment so i agree that we could protect the workers better but most likely not the natural environment, and that's even the water tables and animals and other kinds of environmental creatures. so it is a difficult problem, but it's a problem that i think the south africans are going to have to work out.

from my position we are solidarity workers. when i first went to south africa i was basically like close to my neck down. let sued the company, and the miners were basically look, this is the work that we do if we close it down we will die from hunger. that is our choice and so that meant that we have to respect the workers involved in this process and then provide the resources they need to help make intelligent decisions but not to go to the site and try to impose our thoughts or which is upon them. it is an intractable problem and the injury rate is very high as you can imagine. >> i wanted to ask because obviously people like you and or in the trenches are doing your job and then you go through struggles like this.

what has been the impact of the notes your legislation that you pointed to? i don't know if you have been able to see any changes in the epa that may be just in general what has the impact van? >> the impact has been substantial. that is one of the great things about struggle is that you actually do at times see the fruit of your hand. with the epa for example federal employees must take the training every two years. if you are in the federal government you are being trained every two years so that means you have a pretty good idea of what your rights are and should be able to send yourself if you are being attacked by some illegal alien in the workplace. second of all, if you join the federal government within 90 days of joining the federal government you must be trained

in the notes your act. as soon as you going to the federal government they give you a book or the training and in no fear act. another benefit of the notes your act is that when i sued the federal government there is a slush fund that has been created in the department of treasury so that when people want the lawsuits like mine instead of the agency being responsible at taking account for what happened they would extend the bill to the department of treasury. that's pretty nice, bright? you get a bill for every and instead of you paying it to send it to a little fund. that is the federal government was doing. now under no fear when an agency is found liable for the discrimination, that agency pays for the bill. they don't send it off to the slush fund any more. also every six months congress issues a report from the gao basically outlining what a snapshot of what the federal government looks like on the

inside in terms of retaliation, discrimination, so no one can say ever again that they won't know what is going on in the federal government. also, if you go to any federal government website whether it is the white house, the cia, it doesn't matter. on the front screen of website will be a note your icon. you click on the icon and all of the whistle-blower protection issues will appear on your screen so now we have more data than we have ever had before to protect ourselves and use if we have to go to court. one of the problems i had as i was preparing to go to court was i didn't know whether i was the only person at the epa or whether there were 100 other people. no one has ever wondered about that again in the federal government. so we have made incredible strides through the first act but we are not finished. we've also drafted no fear three and someone asked me the other day how many will there be and i

said we will just keep producing the legislation until we get it right and until we are able to break the back of corruption and the federal government we will keep passing the no fear legislation. >> i have a couple of questions. the first one is to you think that your supervisors at the epa were aware of the details of the toxic effects on workers in south africa at the time that you reported it? because it seemed that the reaction was immediate. maybe it was major but they already knew about it, and my other question is what is the mechanism by the epa to control what a company is doing in another country?

>> actually i think i was the only one who didn't know to be very honest with you. the assistant administrator for my office was very heavily involved in the extractive industry and so maybe this is a good time to talk about the revolving door between the industry and the government because, you know, the political appointees usually come in from the private sector and into the government and make a fantastic context whether the government employees and then they take those contacts back into the private sector. the problem is while they are still in the government they are performing the duties in terms of contact and laying their nest egg for when they leave the government. so, my office was different. my assistant administrator had been the head of mobile oil company in tokyo and nigeria. something of the extractive industry coming as he

understood. my supervisor that told me to decorate my office, she was formerly -- she formerly worked at usaid, but what we found out during the trial when they sort of backtracked her career is that she was also a cia agent. did she understand something about the extractive industry? most likely she did. she certainly understood something about america's strategic interests and so when i raised the issue of the poisoning i actually think she was probably trying to say you don't want to go there. i think that is what she was really trying to say is you don't want to go there because we will have to take you out. and essentially that is eventually happened is that when i refused to stop asking questions they removed me. they called me into the office monday and said we are removing u.s. the executive at secretary because you don't kno