yes, sir. >> this is, this is a hypothetical question. do you think if gold were discovered at sutter's mill five years earlier, it would have been impossible to wrest california away from mexico? >> you must have been at that -- where was i last -- [laughter] same question. it's a good question. well, if they discovered gold at sutter's mill five weeks earlier to settle the war, if mexicans would have turned california loose knowing they had that much gold there. ..

the u.s. navy, k-9, and his california italian. so there really -- i mean, there would not have wanted to, for sure, but didn't have much choice. over here. >> your next-door neighbor in alabama is a good friend, and when i visited her before we walked around your house you were never at home, but all i saw was a typewriter. want to know how many books you have written on a typewriter and how many on a computer. [laughter] >> let's see. when did i start writing on the computer? out tell you, the first book cover of, i think was forced

down. it was weird. i spent ten years in the york. at of flight. first, he was a lawyer. he was going to electric. years after the first and second book, gun an elector because it was easier. i had started coming down to mobile in the winter is because it was called the new york. everyone is talking about these computers. i knew a guy. i ordered this thing, and it came from 42nd street something up there. the new york times. abuts of extraction -- a bunch of instructions written by the japanese. and english was not. there was trying to fool, and i

had done some computer work. i work for washington for its seniors. this is different. you do yourself. and i didn't know what to do. and so finally i said, all right. i'm going to have to start from the beginning. and just going to start writing. it said take the letter. like a secretary. so i start taking the letter. you do that in the did that in the take another letter. and i did that day in and day out until i was about to the -- i don't know what, was about to throw off. but i didn't. i learned to do it. it caused grief. i had it for about three of four years. subsequently i got married. else in there with the criminal a sudden it had a bad habit of reading it -- freezing of. everything freezes up.

if you do anything, if he tries they give off the screen, it's gone forever. it was legal pad. and the money, she came in the capitol down. i had to be put it in the machine. now, of course, there are fantastic. it's a lost art. and i just do it so it will automatically. and never thought would, but it so much easier. i can produce the whole -- i mean, not the design and everything, but i can do things that i never -- corrections are some much easier. before you had to go give it to a secretary in two weeks later. the big corrections. and these computers, all this is just a communication. really the story of my lifetime.

during world war two. and it is -- when i grew up go into my grandmother's house, old town midtown mobile. it had one telephone. it was one of those things a step like that. everybody had five girls in the family, one boy. that's the way everybody would talk on one telephone. that's what i remember when i was about ten until now. we can all see where we are. communications just simply is extraordinary story about times. >> yes, sir. stand back there. we have to get somebody over here. what a fad that.

>> i was wondering of your own personal military experiments pursuing so many military topics in history writing. >> that's a good question. my first experience i mean, you know i was fortunate in a more in vietnam, the university of alabama in 1961 there was in any war. so by the time i get out 1967 it was a war. over we went, and i spend the majority of my time. it is a similar moment in your life. a lot of responsibility kamala pressure, love motion kamala fear. you never get to do it again, but after that my first novel that i wrote was -- the central part of it was about the war.

better times than these. and it has been a theme, and our history is, military histories. i find it, you know, i'm pretty good at it. and of the term. i'd have to know all the ropes and lines in the name of the sailors. you know, uncomfortable with it. so yeah. and that, ladies and gentlemen, i think, concludes a program. you been a great audience. thank you so much. [applause] >> for more information, visit the authors website winston groom dot com.

>> professor randall kennedy joined the book tv at the miami book fair international to talk about his latest book and take your questions. it's about 45 minutes. >> host: you write in your book that obama won the white house in 2008.ot it does not mean that racials no prejudice is no longer a potentr force in american politics and political scientists michael kessler and david sears argue persuasively that the election of 2008 was anything but opposeu racial.ost instead, the racial hopes ande h fears evoked by -- by obama have the potential to be the country's first black president sharply divided in rachael -- racial and service from racial liberals. public defender -- public opinion in voting behavior were considerably more polarized by racial attitudes than at any other time on record. >> guest: yes, the race liney d is still the devil of american life. of course, the election of thecl first black president was a landmark that shows there has

been tremendous change inent american racial attitude. rl had there not been that change you would have had no hope of prevailing. at the same time it is alsoime clear that he had to overcome his blackness in order to prevail. so race still matters. >> host: you have a chapter inat here, why can't they all be like him speak to that chapter is about barack obama'sat i interactions with white america. one of the things that barackone obama had to do to win the whitu house was to a suede the anxieties of non black americans in doing that hugh was acting like a look toward politicians, you know, often act. john f. kennedy had to assuage the anxieties of a non catholic americans when he became the first catholic president. so one of the things that barack obama had to do was to overcomen

negative stereotypes associated with black menca. he had to calm the fears of non blacks.rs that is what that chapter is about. >> host: 202 is the area code if you would like to talk with harvard law professor randall kennedy.f d li a 64-1111 if you live in eastern central time zone. 624-1115 for the mountain and pacific time zones, and you can send it tweet, twitter dot com / book tv is our twitter address as well. dr. kennedy, you write about affirmative action. and barack obama's positioning toward affirmative action. you say that it's a dangerous land mine for him. >> guest: sure, it is. frankly, all racial controversy are a land mine for barack obama, and that's why he tried to set -- stay very far away from russia controversy.u affirmative action is noro different.

he tried to say as little as hei possibly could about affirmative action. there are some people who are very critical of him for avoiding a racial controversy. i not. you know, he is an electoral politician. he has to be keenly attentive to public opinion, and he wants to stay away from issues that will be alecto losers for him. racial controversy is going to be of -- it's going to be an wil electoral loser, city tries to stay away from it. >> host: you talk about the african-american republicans. alan west, ten stocks, for example, key members of congress. you're right that race stillalln matters. affirmative action -- african-americans must overcome their blackness in the eyes of their supporters. >> guest: sure, they must. for instance, one of the most remarkable elections of the --s. of 2010 was the election of

tim's got in south carolina.soui i mean, and the republican contest ten scott, a black man, beat out strom thurmond jr. the son of -- you know, the legendary dixiecrat than republican senator. a black man be of strom thurmond junior. that was quite remarkable. my politics are very far away from tim's got. i am an ideological adversary. t however, it did show something that conservative white republicans of south carolina chosen over all white candid. that shows in my view a change t in racial attitudes, and a good change in racial attitude. and i think that is part and parcel of the obama movement. chanost: what you teach?

>> guest: variety of subjects. contracts, the people who i have fought in my years. in my contract class.nt i used to teach criminal law. i don't @booktv any longer. became too emotionally drainingy to teach. >> host: why? >> guest: every day was a tragedy. every class, every subject,n every case no matter what the issue there is a tragedy, and i just found that just too much.u with contracts i could make upwc people's names, i could make upd funny habit the nichols. you know, you can have fun and games. in criminal law that was never possible the. >> host: teaching this semester? >> guest: i not. i'm on research leave. i also teach courses on race relations long, and most of what i write has been about rate -- race relations.of the time but this particular book does notss.

have much law and it, but andex typically my books do.es do host: harvard law professor randall kennedy is the author of several booksau including sellout, race, crime, and the law.llout the in-word book that he wrote and this is his most recent, the persistence of the color line -- "the persistence of the color line: racial politics and the obama presidency". racal here is the black cover. there is the white color. >> guest: the publisher, they always send them to me and ask if they're okay.sk my publisher has wonderful people working in the art department. i thought this was an interesting way of trying to capture my subjects. >> host: first call for professor kennedy comes from stephanie in morristown, new jersey. stephanie, your on book tv. go ahead with your question.depa >> caller: thank you for

taking my call, and thank you fe for c-span. i am an older, white woman. i live in the east coast in arei that is much more conservative. when i listen to tv an awful log to me because i'm older and capable of walking around. anyhow, at a time where everything is so volatile, people like -- voices like cobra, they should tell, all kinds of media people are not there. the with them and speak with them. his own democratic party is not they're defending his policy. b all i fear from the media, the viciousness.

you know, we have laws. if you say a curse word on the air you did a fine, but if you tell an untruth nothing happens. ther there is no consequence. >> host: all rights.. thank you.oint we have the point. dr. kennedy, there was one thing i wanted to pick up on from what she said. you can enter anything you wantr of course, she talked about the abou democratic party not being therf to support her presence. >> i was a couple of things. cle first of all, the job of president of the united states is incredibly difficult. the president of the united states can expect to be criticized all across the ideological spectrum from all sorts of people. you know, the top person in a rambunctious democracy like ours is going to be subject to criticism, and that has been the law of barack obama.thpe

that was to be expected. now, there is something extra with brock obama.extr he's the first black president. and as the first black presidene he is going to be under special scrutiny, and he is probably going to receive some special and some unfair criticism. that is part of the ball game. i think that's, frankly, to be expected. and that is part of what this happened. i am not saying -- and no one to repeat, i am not saying that all opposition to barack obama is racial and -- in basis. there are people who are against and from the left and right. people who are against and for religious reasons, a distant for ideological reasons, partisan reasons, all sorts of reasons.ba

ret one, one source of the opposition is race, and that ise one of the things i talk aboutce in my book.y >> dr. kennedy, the birth certificate the stop, was thatst racial and your view? >> part of it. again, because there are very few things that are all about race. i'm sure that some of the people who thought that barack obama was ineligible to be presidentmw of the united states because the constitution requires the president of the united states be and native born citizen of the united states, and surei there were some people who believe that sincerely. i'm sure on the other hand that there were some people who were using that as a pretext. they felt that they could not say i'm against this man because he's black, and so they came up with another reason. i'm sure there were some people who probably have the real basis for the -- hit the real basisopr

for their opposition fromfehe themselves.him us so they're all sorts of thingson going on.t threal by the way, with respect to thiy question of the president beingi ineligible because he is -- some people claim to was not aclaime native-born citizen, in my viewi that's one of the places the constitution should actually bes reforms. that is a very bad part of our constitution. part there are 700 people who have 0 won the medal of honor, many of whom have been, you know, killed in defense of the country but would be ineligible to be president of the united statese simply because there were not be born here.there i think that's a bad part of the american constitution, and we should revise the constitution in the face of the fact that there are so many wonderful people who are citizens of the united states who could come from abroad. >> host: stand in new jersey, you're on. >> caller: good afternoon.wonder

the question i have to ask you as a law professor i think you would appreciate the idea thatet language is our most powerful tool. and what i don't quite understand when it comes to the color line in regard toom to linguistics is the use of thengi mechanism of black english by ei barack obama and people estranged as hillary clintonles using this as a mechanism to i don't know, i guess in do the back -- black population to the point of view. i know i would be incredibly a insulted if three guliani or guilo cuomo used the italian accent to appeal to my better nature, if you will, and my understanding of politics. so i noticed they don't use black english, except for certain points of emphasis. would you please address that nasue as to why this mechanism is so popular?epemph

thank you. use? >> sure. it's a fine question. when the president of the united states or, frankly, most officials in the before an audience try to figure out howty they can connect to the audience. that is pretty typical in terms of people trying to be persuasive. and so when black politicians did before predominantly black audiences and the black church or less a the naacp or some other organization, there werewl often speaking in a way to makey solutions to make references that they think it's going to connect with that audience. now, there is a fine line between doing that and engaging in unattractive pandering. it is a fine line, and sometimes people go over the wind, but i am large when the president, you

know, when he changes his diction a little bit, when he drops his jeans a little bit,lie what he's doing is what is politicians typically do. ti and not just politicians. i mean, if i'm speaking to my audience at harvard law school i will of to speak in a somewhat different way than if our's d begin to a more generaley and audience. i will make the certain assumptions about the audience,b what they know, well what there'll be interested in an effort to grab their attention. i think that is mainly what the politicians are doing. but you're right, sometimes i. think that they probably do it gallegus been a sort of stereotyping of the audience and sometimes talk down to their audience. steve. >> host: book tv live from miami. professor randall kennedy is our guest. don from austin texas is our next caller. go ahead. >> caller: thank you.lkown

professor kennedy, my topic isti going to relate to the war onine drugs, which is so similar to the war on witches. it is just as murderous, and it is propaganda based as well as a the which mania. so my question, why has president barack obama -- and by the way, i may white man.an why has president obama allowed the war on drugs to continue to ni arrest, prosecute, convict, and send to prison so-called drug criminals, many of whom just possess marijuana, who amount to 75 percent of the total -- to prison, blacks. blacks amount to 75 percent ofa7 those sent to prison, just as io

1970 to -- and not talk the u.s. 2008, the most recent figures io have on that imprisonment. >> host: we get the point. hn a wi guest: a couple of things. first of all i agree with the callers general skepticism, if not antagonism toward the war on drugs. i think it is misleading and ultimately destructive policy. however, i think it is stillhi t probably popular, and the president of the united states says that he seems to luckily believe in it. it would be politically dangerous for him to take the position that you wanted to take , and he has other policies to fry. i mean, you know, the united states is in the middle of a thk

economic downturn.cy fish to we have foreign policy problemsg wars to fight. the president of the united a states has to make veryto difficult calls in terms of hisc priorities, and the war on drugs is clearly not one of them in terms of reforming it. even if you wanted to reform it, which amounted all clear that he wants to, but even if you wantes to the probably wouldn't be high ond his list. and that being the case, there h not bee much change. >> host: professor kennedy, wewe taken three calls, two of the colors of the need to identify their ethnicity. is that significant in any way? >> guest: sure it is. it underscores the title of my book, the persistence of the color line spirit the fact of the matter is raised is all around them. all of it. i don't care what our racial background this. when you said barack obama, if r

you were just to do a roszakt test and grab people.rack barack obama and tom in the t th first and it comes to mind, people was a first black say f president. you know, that's just the nature of things, and that's going to be the way things are going totl be probably for good, long time. >> host: is that bad? >> guest: its good and bad. it's bad to the extent that its habitual and that we tenditua often to be unquestioning in our habits. for instance, journalists, it's often the case that journalists will make a racial identification of a person and not feel the need to explain themselves. for instance, randall kennedy, a black professor at harvard law school. well, what is my race have to do with that?

sometimes it does.idenca for t does, fine. explain that, but i don't think it should be randall kennedy, ak black person, a professor at prr harvard law school. it is relevant say why it's relevant.levant if you were not prepared to saye why it's relevant, i don't thins that you should mention the fact that a r black. a >> host: one of your colleagues just died to was the: first black professor of law atd harvard. >> derek bell. derek bell. the first black member of the me harvard law school. >> host: is that fair to say? first black professor at harvard law? >> i think it is if what you're trying -- if you're writing a story and you're talking about his place in the history of legal academia or his place in history of our law school then, yakima the fact that he was the first black tenured member of

our black harvard law school>>ut faculty, then it's significant.w on the other hand, if we simplya were talking about a subject, let's say affirmative action ori let's say the war on drugs or let's say anything else, we are talking about the dues of derekw bell, well, it's just derekerek bell.lse. i don't think that the raciali identity should in antity unexplained way be part of the story.. >> host: next call comes fromoma john in chicago. thank you for holding. you're on book tv. >> caller: i just for your information, like stock in racial terms all the time. that's all racial constantly. so you know, so as far as race comes in the conversation,

everything that they do workou talk about is based on race.as a but my question for the ou professor is, would like his iol opinion on state of black racist in the united states today and i've been that to go along withg another thing.along barack obama received approximately 95 percent of the black vote this past election. blacks are far worse off nowse than under george bush among blacks in the black caucus savaged all the time. caucus >> host: john, before we get an answer -- john -- john -- john all right. we'll say goodbye to john then. i just wanted to ask and to define what he meant by black racism, but if you would like to respond. >> guest: up be happy to respond to the caller. he raised a number of interesting issues. j

first, the question of blackant racism, is there black racism? t short. there are black people who looke down on other people because of their race. sometimes white people, sometimes latino, sometimes asian.wn on and that's terrible.ople that and to the extent that there are black people who mark other people down or to act badly toward other people were think badly toward other people because of their racialir background, that's a bad thing.n does that exist within black america? sure it exists. now, on the question of barack obama and getting 95 percent of the black vote, well, in presidential politics the democratic nominee, whoever the democratic nominee is, typically gets the lion's share of the black vote. bill clinton got over 9 percent of the black vote. i think the same is true ofcomic

outdoor.n' they are white, but there arehee democratic and its presidentialn politics particularly. .. presidential politics in particular, black america overwhelmingly goes with the democratic nominee. was that instinctual the case of barack obama? of course, it was. his color has something to do with that. those are some of my reactions. >> host: cancun mexico. good afternoon. >> caller: dr. kennedy. i am so happy for your rise to your position but i have

a lot question. first of all,, there is the lot of incarcerating the thousands in thousands of young men am present in women to come i am sure for such a minor minor thing when the total the basis of the whole country is based on criminal activity. the criminal activity takes someone's land by force. if you would address at as the lot issue then making it to the basis of the whole concept of incarceration to break the law. thank you. >> guest: i think we really do have a major problem on our hands that

very few of our political officials have dealt with adequately and that is the problem of mass incarceration i do think the criminal justice system is highly punitive and there are far too many people who are allowed to waste away in prison and it is a terrible thing i wish the congress and the president and the judiciary was more attentive to that problem. unfortunately i don't say our political officials are going to do with that problem any time soon in the way in which they ought to. hopefully there will be petition am protesting get that problem higher up on politicians priorities. >> host: "the persistence of the color line" racial politics and the obama presidency" is the name of

the newest book from randall kennedy. professor come as a move into the 2012 cycle how does things change from publishing this book this year? >> guest: the president of the united states, barack obama is no longer seeking to become the first hot-- black president he became president and in 2012 the first black president standing for reelection. i think rates will continue in both spoken and unspoken form to be an issue in the background, not the only issue by any means but it will continue to be a force. the 2012 election will be very tight and it will be hard fought and it will circuit they certainly occupy energy as a writer i

can imagine right teeing another book about the election to come. >> host: did the president speak with you about this book? >> i knew the president a a little bit when he was at harvard law school never in any of my class is but an excellent student and a very outstanding student members of the faculty talked about him because he was so at outstanding i did not talk to the president about this book i use public sources that are available to anyone >> host: las vegas good afternoon you are on booktv with randall kennedy a. >> caller: professor i'd like to bring up the jeremiah wright issue again i heard the pundits bring that up again. i think he is a wonderful man of god what he says is scriptural the correct, will not bless america but what

he said was very easy to mou explained instead of letting them hammer the man in making the president run out of the church. why doesn't somebody bring this up? he is a wonderful minister now all these years let him act like that he can live anywhere in the world. why do we accept this? is pure racism and no other reason and you can stop it. >> guest: thank you for your call. picked up my book there is a chapter in my book about reverend wright. and it is called reverend wright and my father because my father's views were very similar to reverend rights. probably a more extreme frankly in the criticism of

the united states. one of the things i tried to do is to show that the views the reverend wright had do have a place in black america and he does represent an important strand of thought about black america is big. there's a lot of strands of thought. black conservatives, liberals, lef tist and nationalist nationalist, reverend rights views were an important part and are an important part of black american political thought. they are an understandable part. one of the things i tried to show is he had the basis for saying what was said and i also agree with the caller

when he suggested reverend wright was by no means being crazy when he talks about the view that god would look at america with disfavor there is any number of american states men who have said that. thomas jefferson had the view and said he troubled when he imagined that god is just because he recognizes that terrible up the issue of american slavery if it is just you will not look with favor on america that being a slave holding republic. abraham lincoln said very similar things. so the idea of a broad view wing america in a disfavored way because of the

justice -- the injustices of america that has a long history and i talk about that in one of the chapters of my book i hope that you will be that. >> host: professor kennedy got his degree from yale an undergrad from princeton and was at oxford as a rhodes scholar and clerked with thurgood marshall currently a professor of law and the author of several books of all of your books, which has been our what has got a new the most attention and? >> certainly the wind is bigger -- nigger i get calls and emails every week about that book. the longest book is called interracial intimacy and is about the way in which the

law has regulated interracial intimacy with adoption, marriage i probably have had the most fun writing that book but i have had fun debt rating all of them it is a great privilege to frankly make a living as a professional student and that is what i am. >> host: where did you grow up? >> guest: washington d.c. born in south carolina at my parents for refugees from the jim crow south so their children could have more opportunity. group in washington d.c. and attended a fabulous high-school, the most important schooling experience i have had the a school for all boys and from there went to princeton i have been very lucky. i have led a very privileged

life. >> host: next call from professor kennedy comes from of the land. you are on book tv's. >> caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i have two questions. barack obama and other white father was black but nobody talks about his white man's. why is that? and barack obama was not the only president to have negro ancestry there were several others including jefferson and lincoln but nobody ever speaks about that. what about the president of the continental congress? he was a black man. could you speak to those issues? i would appreciate it. >> about barack obama ratio lineage, there has been some attention paid to that and a good many people who object to those like myself who

called barack obama of black african american in some who say he should be called multiracial. his mother was white and his father was a black african and. i call barack obama according to what he says he wants to be called. he identifies himself as black and african-american in. so that is how i describe him. it is a very important thing for him to describe himself as black that is an important decision that he made a good many years ago. i think his history would be different if he called himself lotto or multiracial , i had he had done that he would have a different profile am probably would have been seen differently by black

people am particular. with respect to the second question about racial identity of other people who have been president, the fact of the matter is the question of who is white and who is black is a question and it up then sign it how you define who is black or white. if you go back far enough may be all of humankind this effort can. said it began there then you could make the argument all americans are in some sense african-american it depends on how you want to define what you are saying obviously barack obama is the first person who view himself as black and that is the context i view him as the first black american.

>> host: "the persistence of the color line" racial politics and the obama presidency" randall kennedy most recent book. winston-salem. >> caller: thank you for the program and i would like for him to speak kind the issue of president obama, a politician in nine as to martin luther king as a leader. >> guest: it is very important to recognize people occupied different phases and have different missions. margin mr. king, jr. was then head of a wonderful and am perked -- important political social movement.

he was a civil rights leader and a leader of the struggle and he occupied a certain role and he has certain responsibilities and a burden to carry eight when you occupy that role. as a policy issue occupy a different role. you have to watch public opinion and if margin is 13, jr. was willing to go against you are the elected politician go over public opinion poll calculation is different winning and losing is defined differently when you talk about martin luther

king, jr. and barack obama, these are men that occupy a completely different niche and you have to identify them differently 87 dr. kennedy will be joined by now irvin painter here at the campus of miami-dade. we will broadcast their talk in interaction on booktv.org. that is about 10 minutes we have a few minutes left with randall kennedy. please go ed. >> caller: i have just finished reading your book and it is very interesting i enjoyed it. my first question is during the election it seems he had to encounter not only

african-americans but columnists tried to make a division because his father was african born and wanted to treat differently from african americans and i seem to be going through the same situation as well. my friends are african american can you speak upon that? also why did you decide to go to princeton 10 other than for wary resided? what is your reaction of zero the book of the occupy wall street move meant? only white americans seem to be suffering as well with financial aid and all of that. i would appreciate that and

i also like your book i saw you last time i had to check out this book i am reading and again. >> host: thank you very much. >> guest: i appreciate you reading my book. first of all,, question number one, of black america is large and internally divided over various things. many people in black america are immigrants from africa or the caribbean and there are certain tensions between than native-born black americans and black people who are immigrants from other place is. sometimes to the attention becomes rather ugly and use the a little bit of that in a commentary about barack

obama truly a black american that his father was a black african as opposed to a black american. i think has subsided somewhat as the caller indicated that was a topic of conversation at all across the united states they deal with the attention but on a question why i went to princeton university, because my older brother went there and it was recommended to me and my older brother suggested that i do. i am very happy i went there. it is wonderful. the third question on occupy wall street, very interesting. my sense of things is that to many black americans feel themselves to be in the grip

of a dilemma. on the one hand many are feeling the real pinch of the continued economic difficulties. they feel it. at the same time a lot of them don't want to do anything to do with the president and a stand he cannot snap his fingers in everything changes in recognize he has influential political adversaries so even though black america dense are hurting, maybe 13 quietly as the president's policies they don't want to be very public in their protest because they think that may hurt the president.

>> host: o'quinn you have the last word. >> caller: i and stand that thurgood marshall has no black law clerks for the first four or five years he was on the supreme court. the second question is the census so identify african-american, black, neg ro or colored. would you comment on the industry shin listing that on a census form? >> host: a first question is the stated thurgood marshall had no black clerics the first four or five years at. >> guest: that is true. i think it went beyond that it was probably longer than that. not purposely. no. thurgood marshall was quite a stickler as the boss an

extremely exacting requirements for whom he hired as a law clerk. thurgood marshall had more black law clerks than any other justice. nonetheless he still had very few. for instance the year before i worked for him he had no black law clerks are when i was there. i was the only black law clerk at the supreme court when i was there. justice marshall, mr. civil-rights was quite elitist in his hiring policies. and it he had very few black law clerks that is a part of thurgood marshall's history that frank leave has not gotten much attention but that is true.

on the question of the senses, there is a lot of different ways that people can identify themselves and i think that is proper. in my writings for instance, i use the term black and african american and afro-american is. i also use the term negro. some people think that is antiquated. i don't thurgood marshall use that term with a capital in in march to me 13 it used the term negro and debbie lee b. dubois use that term of it is good enough for them it is good enough for me. there is a wonderful organization the national association for the advancement of colored people, if colored was that bad of a term i supposeeee >> you're watching c-span2's

booktv. finish. >> booktv explored the literary culture of poe month, texas, with the help of our partner, time-warner cable. watch an interview from our time there next on booktv. >> hi, i'm sarah baim, director of the stark museum of art in orange, texas, and we're here to do our special exhibition, medieval manuscripts from the stark collections. this is an exhibition of objects of beauty from our permanent collection. we have four medieval manuscripts, each is a book of hours from the middle ages, and we show these annually, each year open to a different page to highlight the different illumination and to high lite a different theme -- highlight a different theme in the the exhibition. the first one is by a flemish artist of the early 15th century, and we have it open to

a miniature, as the main scene is called, with one of the scenes of the life of mary. the books of hours generally have prayers to the virgin mary, and each prayer begins with a standard illustration going through the birth cycle of jesus with mary's story overladen. and here we have the visitation where mary greets her cousin, elizabeth. and this is set on the page with a beautiful, elaborate decoration on the border and a highly-illuminated initial piece, um, all characteristics of the type of ill streges that were done with these -- illustrations that were done with these beautiful books of hours. this book of hours is done by a french artist, and it's also open to an illustration of the birth cycle n this case the adoration of the magi who have come to worship the child.

this is a little bit later, early 16th century, and it shows the classical influence as well as the medieval interest in the use of gold and bold colors, and then the renaissance use of perspective and neoclassical columns feting off the beauty of the scene. this is an especially lovely illustration as is the border decoration on the following, subsequent page. in the books of hours, in addition to the, um, story of the birth cycle there will be other standard illustrations. usually there are representations of the four e van lists leading into sections of the gospels. and this book, an early french book, is open to an illustration of st. mark. and mark, who would have been an early christian saint, is shown more as a medieval scribe. so it gives us a little bit of an idea of how the artist of

this type of book would have looked working at a tilted stand, he's writing his manuscript, in this case, on a scroll rather than on the pages. and st. mark is accompanied by his attribute, a lion. and just in the teeth of the lion he's holding what we believe is a penner which was a place where the medieval scribe would have kept his quill pen and other supplies. so the artist of this illustration gives us a little indication of how the illustrations were made. now, the final book of hours in our exhibition is one by a dutch artist. and it is open to illustrations of two of the saints to whom prayers would have been offered, in this case st. catherine of alexandria on the left and st. barbara on the right. and the unknown artists of this

book of hours is refer today as one of the masters of the dark eyes because of the stylistic tendency to show the faces with eyes heavily lined in dark colors to emphasize the eyes. this is a stylistic characteristic. and shown in the way that the portraits of the individual saints are done, each with her own attribute showing her martyrdom. we think that this is a great way to learn about the middle ages and about the cultural life of the history, um, in the middle ages. religion was a very important part of daily life. the books of hours were prayer books that lay people -- not the clergy, but the average person -- would have and would use to guide their devotional life. so in looking in the books of hours, you can get some of the sense of how medieval people approached their daily life

through their prayers and a sense of what they found beautiful in the use of rich materials, the gold applied, um, to the illustrations and, um, a general enjoyment of all that nature has to offer. >> interviews from beaumont, texas, are being featured all weekend long on booktv. visit c-span.org/local content. >> up next, peter schweizer contends that members of congress profit from insider trading and use their political influence for their own financial gain. this is just over an hour. >> thank you all for joining us here at heritage this afternoon in our louis lehrman auditorium. we, of course, welcome those who join us on our