>> josh seefried is an air force officer, cofounder of outserve, and editor of "our time." he discusses "our time" was with the book's contributors at the new york public library. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. >> good evening everybody. thank you for braving the weather tonight and joining us here at the new york public library. this program is part of the

library's lgbt initiative which was started about two years ago and is a combination of the programming, collection support and fundraising to highlight the library's lgbt historical collections. many people don't know that the new public library is one of the greatest archives of the history of lgbt, civil rights in the country. and really our initiative is to bring those collections to really mass audience, both for new yorkers and online around the world. we are really, really pleased to have you all with us this evening. i'm going to and reduce you one by one. josh seefried is currently an active duty air force officer and 2009 graduate of the air force academy and operate under the pseudonym jd smith trying to the repeal. is cofounder and codirector of outserve, he is regularly sought by the need to represent they acted members and is only appeared in chatter today. he was an invited guest of the

signing legislation of the repeal don't ask, don't tell. jonathan mills is staff sergeant and electronic technician for the u.s. air force currently stationed in washington, d.c. he is the first executive editor of outserve magazine. kathryn miller was a cadet at west point until she resigned in protest of don't ask, don't tell. she worked as one of outserve's main spokespersons during the fight to repeal don't ask, don't tell a bearing on national television and escorting lady gaga at mtv's music video awards. she's studying at gil mack answers on outserve's board of directors. daniel hernandez was a lance corporal in the u.s. marine corps said the separation from the marines has been a staff member at outserve's members what he has worked for the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. deputy op-ed editor at the new times. he was a correspondent for the newspaper and the founding bureau chief of the cd-rom news

blog. and the metropolitan reporter covering transportation and city hall. thank you all for being with us and look forward to hearing you. thanks. >> thank you all for coming tonight on a rainy night. it's possible to have a great discussion. in fact, often better discussion with a small crowd than large ones. the panel is being recorded as well so others can watch this after us. when i was asked to serve on this panel i thought this was an amazing honor. i've got to be there. i read this book in one sitting. the stories of courage and sacrifice, and integrity that are in this book will really move you. especially what impressed me for to get to the outcome was how diverse the stories were. if you think that there's one experience being lgbt in the military, there is an. this book was filled with people, you know, from people who are rotc or people who went, become commissioned officers after college to people who enlisted in people who served for decades, people are still

blackmailed, out of. to come out, then discharge. it's an incredible resource. i hope you all to read if you haven't already. so we're going to start which is having a few minutes personal stories from each of the panel members, and then i'm going to ask a bunch of questions here and then when we are ready will move to audience q&a and hopefully have a pretty rich and engaging discussion. so was going to start? should we start from the floor and? >> my name is josh seefried, army first lieutenant of the united states air force but i'm currently stationed at mcguire air force base, about two hours south of here. i'm a cost analyst for the air force. might expect with don't ask, don't tell is very innocent i graduate from air force academy in 2009, and short after i went to my training and was blackmailed by my instructor there, changing my test scores, harassing because only. with help of service members network i turned in my

instructor and that instructor into turning around an outing me. i was removed from my job, they took away my ability to access computers to i worked at the chaplain's office during this time, and secretary gates then came out with this new policy, that third party outings weren't allowed in will, that sort stop the process against the personally, but during this process i got so frustrated with dennis don't tell that i decided to turn around and help create outserve, and kind of building network where we could start to network together and then kind of collectively voice our concerns to the military. a lot of people contribute in the book are outserve members. what we did was using social media, started connect gay soldiers around the world into the state right now with over 4700 members across the globe that are connected, that have the support that are no longer alone, that are able to meet on a regular basis and just have

that support right now, even post the don't ask, don't tell error. i guess the two big reasons i agreed to do this project was i think it was really important to give the courage that there are gay people in the military right now. i'm reading a book one is an force academy that as a gay serviceman, just getting encouraged by the. realize there's so many of us out there that are gay and it's okay. and second of all, to change the mind, when i gave this book to someone at my pace, he was a person that was very against the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. a day later he came back to me and this was this man's over 50 and he was crying. is light, i really had no idea that can affect people went through under don't ask, don't tell. so there were two goals in doing this project. i think it was a huge success.

>> i'm staff sergeant jonathan mills. i'm stationed in washington, d.c., i do satellite communicate and for the air force. my first experience with don't ask, don't tell came during my divorce. i grew up in a very conservative religious household, and through a variety of circumstances, me and my then high school sweetheart made a decision to get married. later on in my air force career about three years, i had come through the process of personal growth, as had she. and we came down to the crucial moment of having that discussion that should've happened server years ago, that is when don't ask, don't tell really suffered to have an obvious impact in my life. and it came about because, within the military we have a very tightknit community.

all of our peers are very close, supervisor are very involved, and their subordinates. social life and personal lives really one big family. so when the situation like this comes up, my divorce, it was very hard to go to talk to anybody about that at the time because it was really nobody to turn to for emotional support for any other support those needed during a divorce. at least the particulars. so the story that are wrote in "our time" was an account of me actually coming out to my supervisor about my divorce. my supervisor was very involved in my life, and i tried to be as responsible, and he got out of me. and that was the moment where i felt like everything that i had worked for so far wascoming in,

down the tube in that instant. and it was an. and the recent it was a was my supervisor was a man of integrity. he understood what it meant to be able to serve, to be able to serve with courage and with integrity. the real meaning of that word was, and stated during his testimony. so that was my first experience with don't ask, don't tell. going through that and then beating josh, learning about outserve and started to be more involved in the organization, they asked for initiatives to help reach out in our network a little bit more. we came out with the idea to do outserve magazine, which has been more successful than i thought it would be. we are growing in readership which is great and most important where getting the word out about our organization, about the policies that affect us, and what i feel is most important is sharing our stories, like stories that are in josh's the book, "our time,"

with the world. thank you. >> so, i'm katie miller. i was a west point cadet, until august 2010. before i came out to my commanding officers and was subsequently discharged from the military. unlike josh, i know i was gay before entering the can in 2008. but honestly i just didn't think that being gay had anything to do, would have any impact on my ability to serve for my willingness to serve. when i get to west point i realized that just wasn't the case. it wasn't a don't ask, don't tell policy. people may ask and i'm going to have to do my best to hide it. i'm going to have to come up with some sort of strategy. i fabricated a heterosexual dating history. i blatantly lied to my comrades. as was stated previously, the

military is built on bonds. it's built on trust, and especially at west point were even on a coda says a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, tolerate those who do. i realized very quickly i was not becoming the person i wanted to become. and at west point there was an underground. it continues to exist an underground network of gays and lesbians. and i was able to bond with my friends in that way. but no one was ever vocal about this. i had seen cadets before me resigned due to don't ask, don't tell policy, and they were silent about it. they didn't see the reasons why they left the academy. and in their failure to cite the reasons for the resignations, they also failed to invoke change in any way. so when i decided to resign,

when i decided i was going to be able to serve in the military as long as the dumbest don't tell policy was in place, i made a conscious effort to make sure that i was going to change something, that i was going to tell my story picks are networked with organizations such as outserve, such as servicemembers legal defense network, and also nights out which is west point lgbt alumni and allies. and i actually lead to my letter of resignation to them, and it went viral on the internet fairly quickly. and within a day and a half, and this is why i wrote about in my portion of "our time," i had appeared on the rachel maddow show, unauthorized interview done from my barracks room. and two days later i was discharged. and maybe a week after that i joined the board of outserve. and i think don't ask, don't

tell the such a destructive policy, the people that were most effective diet were the very people that were prevented from saying. to the dumbest don't tell policy made gay and lesbian servicemembers and invisible and voiceless. and i knew by joining outserve that being able to put an image to those that were not visible and be able to put a voice to those that were disenfranchised at the time, that that was going to have a profound impact. it's been an honor serving alongside everyone up here. >> my name is dating her native. i served as lance corporal in the marine corps for two years until his discharge in april 2010 because of don't ask, don't tell. my experience in the military and afterwards are very similar to everyone else of it. i joined for the same reasons and the fact that i was gay, when a joint i knew i was, it

was at the forefront of a mind. i joined for the reasons anyone else joins military, to serve my country, because i felt patriotic, sense of duty, et cetera. but when i joined was a lot of skepticism from friends and family, just because, not because they knew i was gay because they just didn't seem as the one, of all people, to join the marine corps. i'm not much bigger now but at the time i'd wager a 90-pound. joining the marine corps was a bit of a reach for me, and it was tough but i did it and i was a successful, and i love being able to say for the first time that i am a marine. it's not something very many people can say as it is, but i went through training with no problems. that was also a student at texas a&m. i left to join the marine corps and again back to finish my degree. but a few months before graduation i had a confrontation

with some marines at a bar in which my sexuality came up. and in defense i did say that i was indeed gay and defend myself as well as the people i was with. that led to just me worrying about what would follow and if i would be outed, if people would find out. if my dreams are being a korean were going to be over. and so to close individuals to me that were also am again, i told them that i was gay, and they were two of my best friends in the marine corps. and i told them i was gay, and they supported me, told me i had nothing to worry about. so in my mind they were the guys are going to stand up for me in case something happened at my unit. i show up to my unit the uncalled and by first sergeant office, and the first words out of his mouth, our our u.k.? i had to say, i answered on this and i suggest. i told him he as, there's

loopholes in the polls as we've all known under. i didn't compromise my integrity. a few months later i was discharged ultimately, but before that i really wanted to fight to stay in the military. i graduated from college. the marine corps said they were going to pay back my student loans because they are up to me at that point. so i started doing whatever college graduate student was doing, looking for job. at that point i didn't have an. i found a job in d.c., moocher, part about the organization, i got a lawyer to help, through their help i would stay in a chair and retain my job. unfortunately, that was not the case, but i figured that being in that position, being in d.c., in close to the organization i should join the movement and say something and do something about. so i joined the staff. i've been there for about two years now and it's been a world wind of the year, as we all kn know. but the successes that have

happened over last year are many. there's a lot to be done. so the fight does go on and that's why all the stuff is underlined in the book, especially i look forward to continuing the fight. >> these are incredible stories. thank you for showing them. i have a lot of questions. i hope you all have, too. where to start? first, the simple question. those have been discharged from the service academies or from active duty service, is there any chance to reenlist? >> there's absolutely. so i think anyone who has been discharged actually is able to, and then he can speak better to this than me, but me for example, i am looking to rejoin the military. so everything is by case-by-case basis. >> which have to go to officer can't or acted west point? >> either would be an avenue. for me personally it would be more a decision to go to officer

candidate school. >> i told ago i talked to them 100% committed to returning to the military. unfortunately, there are a lot of obstacle standing in the way. i submitted an application for an officer commission but also tried to reenlist. the marine corps in particular is not looking for an overwhelming amount of people, especially if they're going to have to retrain and pay for that retraining they are not too interested. so i submitted an application. i've been moved from recruiter to recruit, and i had my third recruiter was incredibly amazing. with a process to quickly and they just didn't want to accept my application because they're going to have to retrain the. and so it's been difficult. it's been frustrating. but i'm committed to returning. that possibility is there. how peaceful it is with the military and everything else that stands in way. every branch is given. it is case-by-case but there is a lot to do when i return.

[inaudible] >> very interesting. josh, tell you a little bit about outsourced growth. it's less than two years old, you've are expanded to 4700 members, is that what you said? >> yao. >> could you tell me something about, do you collect any demographic data? now the as of september widows fully repealed, had he seen a surge in membership? >> whenever have really seen a surge in membership for the reason why if we continue to keep our membership by word of mouth on the even in a close repeal world need to know someone to into in our membership. that's just to respect people's privacy. and also to kind of guarantee the fact that people are still active duty and who they are. what was the question? [inaudible] >> we have done demographic data. it kind of breaks down with the

military about 20, 23% of women is our membership. we break down within the largest branches, air force, army, navy. the largest number of our mentorship is air force. right now the second is navy and then it goes army, marine corps and coast guard. so that's kind of the demographics of our group. and i think one of the things that's been so successful in outserve growth is just the use of social networking. the ability to connect people and then kind of fostered the leadership off of, here's a bunch of people we have in germany and here's your networks, now let's find out how we can get together and push it. i think we have in particular used social networking very, very effectively. we all use facebook just a gimmick it internally within the organization but i know outserve board, a lot of argumentation is between facebook. and that's how i think we've operated so effectively in

growing the organization. trailblazing and away, a political orchestration can stand up overnight. that's exactly how we continue. i think that we can say that 2011 with the aggressive but i think next year is going to be even bigger for us. >> what's your editorial vision? how is it distribute? is entirely digital? >> trying to reach everybody. right now it's distributed through several, shopping centers and deny states. and then we have several units overseas that have requested, and those are cases where unit commanders or first sergeant, people in high level leadership will contact us and asked her several copies be sent in. as with some they're doing to print, our largest distribution

is through our electronic version, which is available on our website, or it's available through the download of the actual digital version. so our target readership and this tradition is number one, actively serving lgbt personal. but equally as important is reaching those people within our committee, our peers, people who do supporters and people who don't support us. and maybe they just don't see things the same or they haven't had the same experiences. so we are trying to reach them and try to change hearts and minds. beyond the people in the committee were trying to reach our culture, the united states, to give them a window into how things are in the military's, how they were under don't ask, don't tell, how they are going forward with repeal a don't ask, don't tell. >> one thing that struck me is you all incredibly young. i imagine most of you were teenagers when 9/11 occurred, if

not younger, is that correct? i mean, how much ongoing u.s. involvement, campaigns in iraq and afghanistan affect your decision to join the mill to come and are you surprised? i guess i'm trying, one thing that i'm very curious about, issues whether the timing of dadt repeal was influenced by the campaigns in iraq and afghanistan. if anyone wants to take that question. and i think it's interesting because if we look at a graph window and ask don't tell is embedded in 1993, the discharges actually increased of gay and lesbian servicemembers. so this is from 1993, increase, increase, increase, 2001 decrease. than the number of discharges that occurred. what was happening there is not that there were quiet -- that which is less of them. but rather with the opportunity

serve overseas. we needed every man and woman, gay or straight to the serving their country. it's incredibly ironic that the discussion, the argument about gays can be a military because they will disrupt unit cohesion, that seems completely asinine and contradictory, you know, if we think that we can have gays, we need gays and lesbians the most during a time of war because he are contributing to unit effectiveness to combat effectiveness. so doing, i think our campaigns in both iraq and afghanistan have shown how sexual orientation is not an issue to servicemembers. >> and safety think it only took until now, so what -- why did it take now, given the need for all capable servicemembers to continue serving during the past decade?

wasn't mostly political conditions in your view? get social views have to evolve? i know it's a very macro question, but i'm curious about the. >> i mean, i have my own opinions. [laughter] >> i think the political landscape had a lot to do with whatever i want to. social views of course have evolved and will continue to evolve on lgbt pages, but the political landscape, it was literally later than what it is today last year when to has don't i was actually voted on and passed through. it was really the people. and so the political landscape was right but hand-in-hand with the views of, it was a bipartisan vote that made this happen. >> i think one of the things, one of the first things he did when he was brought in, ago, his leaders income we've got to change this policy.

if we would've gotten until the singing was happening and one of those chief what is a don't repeal the policy, and deliver it in, the whole process would've been derailed. but president obama really showed great leadership and think everyone needs to get in line and change this policy. and i think that's what really, i think he showed that leadership to really change this policy helped get us past that point. because we needed those military leaders to get in line with the policy. he made that happen. >> the service chiefs were not completely unanimous, right? unit secretary gates and admiral mullen, making strong expressions of support for repeal, but there was a little more dissent among the top ranks. that was the subject of some controversy. >> but at the end of the day when they're all asked that question, at the senate, can we make that happen, whether be any issue, they all answered no, they won't be any issues. i think that's what got us past.

there's always issues, the marine chief is now saying we are leaving on the issue. so i think they are all past any problems that they had. >> two of you were active duty right now. how has it gone over the past three or four months since it took effect? >> in my experience it's been very transparent. i haven't seen a lot of changes either on quality level or just on social interaction level i'm not sure if that's just because that's a can of unit i'm in right now or if that's just how it is across the force. kind of led to believe based on, around the world in the u.s. military the law went away and everyone continues to serve the way they always have. i think the exact same way, there's nothing really much change. i think we'll start to see some issues rise upcoming and someone a lot about military starts to

move and change based. i'm up for re- station i think people start to realize the inequality that now exist in that you. free don't ask, don't tell, we just booted it and the caseworker. by now we have to see where unit commanders will have to see decade troops who are married legally and they won't be able to apply for joint spouse assignments and to have to see and watch families get torn apart. and i think that when units, you know, these folks are our friends and they will have to watch families get torn apart or issue that could handle. i think we'll start to see the summer when the military is starting to do their moves, most aggressively, we will start to see some of these units raise issues. i think a lot of the issues will come from our straight friends, this is not there. the very core of the military, that equality, and that is not the right now. under don't ask, don't tell dash that we can anyone. >> is the defense of marriage

act is sort of the next front for lgbt people in military? are the folks going to turn to that? >> that's a huge focus right now, especially for our organization. until the end. we recently followed -- filed a lawsuit, that defines spouse in a certain way. it does not include same-sex couples so the stephanie a huge priority for us as we move forward. just a few, like he said, not even three months, make sure all of our servicemembers, equal service, equal benefits. that's the bottom line. no special treatment, just making sure that as they move, as whether they are to active service duty members, you know, all service members are treated the same. [inaudible] >> i think so, and i think we need to not underestimate the impact the military can have on

progressing the issue. i was at the first congressional hearings regarding dome of since its implementation in 1996. and i was astounded by the several congressmen who brought up, or who asked the question -- >> you were not testify at the time? >> no, no, no. i was a lonely congressional intern at the time, just sitting in the ground. but the many congressmen posed the question, how does doma affect our servicemembers. and the answers, i mean we can go to the range of military benefits are not afforded, as was the emotional support, but i think we're going to find that outserve, as well as many military organizations are going to have strong statements come are going to ride a strong partner for the repeal of doma. >> one of things beyond doma after realized there are many

things to do right now. and i think a lot of people, that report that the working group released in the pentagon which was along the people realize, when they research in the report it directly said we can do this around trying to right now but i think for us with outserve will going on a two-pronged attack with need to go with these loopholes right now and you should be introducing this into the units now, give us this, and also you have a general tend to repeal but there are plenty of action that can be taken right now around doma. >> just through -- >> just through direct dod action. there would be no congressional action needed. those actions can be taken now. [inaudible] >> i'm not sure. i think the our political. i think that we got, they want to take baby steps on issue, and i think that maybe we will build a take baby steps if these issues keep bubbling up like i think it will. so i think, and i think which is

in general the media has caught on the fact that here in this report, and a small part of a report that says -- we recommend against it. so i think that, you come with me to start catching onto the and to realize there's a lot of things to do around doma right now. >> a lot of contribute to this book are coming up for the first time now, correct? >> right. a story, hadn't come out to anyone at all, so the story in this book was the first time had come up to get a, to his parents before the book came out. and i think that's the coolest part about the book as it did give people the motivation to. >> i imagine the have seen this viral video of service number around the world coming out to the units, their family members, giving a range of responses. in many cases incredibly moving. katie, in your experience what was the reaction like for your

resignation later under letter became public and in your later went on to rachel matter shall? >> it happened within about 40 or 72 hour time period. i was talking to my mother at the time, but should only family member back home that new. so when i came out, when i came out on the rachel matter of show i was literally coming out to the world. again, it was an unauthorized interview done, very poor quality, clearly a skype interview. it was rush. the audio problems. i had made a run back to dinner, changed uniforms to look presentable. the obstacles were many and significant. and i remember, i remember i had a tendency, it was an external

web can be a tendency to look, you know, not directly at the webcam but the image on the screen, which does not videotape will. it does not record well. so the producer, and he doubtless said, just let your screen go blank. so i did and i was literally looking into this black screen, this sort of black hole of unknowing us. and coming out do not only my family, and not only to myself but also to millions of people, to an audience that would never be able to fully grasp their vastness of. >> i imagine the sleeping horse at west point are usually not the safest for this? >> right. [inaudible] >> right. and a fun thing was that i had made a deal with some of my lesbian friends there, and i

said hey, yeah, you should probably separate yourself from me this week because i don't want, i don't want any of you to get caught in a crossfire. >> how did the academy react? how did fellow cadets react? how did in structured red? >> surprisingly positive. unit, even if there was a negative reaction it was geared towards the manner which i present myself, or the man at which i conducted activism as opposed to what i was advocating on behalf of of. but i did feel i was going to be discharged,. >> and has there been, those were in the air force, are you saying that more colleagues have come up, or has it been sort of more gradual? >> i would say there's been an

explosion coming out. >> the military is gay. >> a few people friend me and and said i'm relieved at the current state of policy. is not going to impact what i do in the future. maybe have enough courage to go and other commanders i'm actually married, or i am planning on getting married. but there hasn't been a massive on the people in my experience that have came out just because don't ask, don't tell when away. for all of us, while for most of us all of our close friends kind of know anyways, a lot of us have friends are not in the military because of don't ask him to we have the too great a whole lives outside noted in some respects. for a lot of us this brought a lot of change in the way we interact with her coworkers come in the future. there might be other examples that are not exactly saying.

when we look with our surveys, the membership that happened over the past two months can we do see a trend of a lot of people coming out. and back when the president signed the legislation into the period right before, until september we saw a trend, like 40% about if ever time from headcount up to 1% in unit. by the time in limitation, rather number had gone up to 70 or 80% had, to one of the person in the unit. we have seen a trend of people coming out more. one of the goals with the magazine was, the ongoing race of the magazine, 100 people on 100 basis. let's just rip off a band-aid, create the big media, that people are just like all, they? can't do anymore crazy. it kind of, you know, people who got the scary, all the gays came out and nothing happened. i think that we do try to make a big thing on the 20th two

really kind of desensitized people to the fact that there's anything come because it would have done what we did in the magazine he would've a story in the media that said here's one people or here's another person, that we had a huge, et al. i think up in a military. i think we saw a lot of progress because of what we did. >> jonathan, if i'm remember cracker, you're quite going in your essay what you talk about telling your supervisor. [inaudible] i just a member if i'm not mistaken, basically shocked that you're gay but also we ended up supporting you, if i'm not mistaken. have you been in touch with that officer of? >> absolutely. yes, you are stating exactly how i wrote a. i've not been in touch with him outside. he wrote a short message to me

on facebook the date of repeal same i just wanted to congratulate you. i always thought you were a great true. i want to say that. i hope you -- sharing my appreciation with you, and that was about the extent of our interaction. but at that time, certainly he was shocked. and expected him to be shocked but i expected him to react differently. i feel like there are a lot of people in the military that strive to follow the letter of the law, and follow every single word. i pegged him as one of those people so i was very nervous and explain that to them because i was preacher how that would end. obviously, didn't go that way, and like i mentioned earlier, he understood what it meant to follow our core values rather

than technicality or letter of the law. >> you mentioned that underground network has become aboveground. >> it's really interesting point. the coast guard academy has established a gsa, a gay straight alliance, that just launched within the past week. there are discussions also circling around west point as was the naval academy and navy and air force academy as well. so there is, i mean, similar to our membership generally there's -- there's certainly a different sentiment regarding the act of coming out and to comfort people feel get one thing i'm curious about is whether the coming out

process across military has been different or has been different for officers versus enlisted members. josh and katy were in the service academies. jonathan and, therefore, were enlisted. is that, i mean, for my expensive military, the rank and hierarchy are very, very important part of military culture and military operations. is it different list for lgbt for other people in that position? >> it's one of the reasons we have issues because it's such the of and we had to give equal opportunity protections. for example, like you said, i'm an officer and i only have an officer in my office so there are only two of us. i'm not going of any issues with any of my troops calling me names or anything, but what my

troops me or what if one of my troops didn't have a friend commander as an officer. i think the situations can be drastically different. one of the reasons that we can do, the inspector general, it's such a big deal to go. i think the lower enlisted want to go. i think that the routes are different i think the experiences are different and actions. in my opinion they are completely different in different worlds. >> i would agree. when i was going to write discharge process, i was not in a leadership position, and it didn't have a very friendly command. the exact words of my first sergeant were if you expand him or harassment or if this gets out, you brought this on yourself. so that was it. there was no other out that i

had to go to. were as an officer, have some kind of leadership and some kind of, another place to go, which is the underline the importance of making sexual orientation a protected class as a move forward as another priority. >> wonder thank you note in the book is the change in policy of course does not apply to gender expression, transgender, could you ever see that changing? >> it should change and i think it's one of things we can achieve relatively quickly because we don't have to work with congress to get it done. it's a pentagon policy we need to do with. so it's one of those policies that we need to address very quickly because we don't have to go the congressional rabbit i see it changing. it's unfortunate that we couldn't do one action, it's just the other servicers, our counterparts overseas.

it's something that we can attack here in the near future that i would like to open up to the audience. let me get in one more question if you don't mind. are any of you from military families speak is the reason i ask is, as you've gotten to know more gay and lesbian people in the civilian world, do you often get asked a question of why you joined, and you know, how do you explain that? i guess i'm asking, you join an environment, you, i'm wondering how that is going to be different. >> my father is a master sergeant in the united states on and is also the son dash also done to deployment to iraq to india still in the army? >> he is still in the service. not any active component though. and curling up with him, then, having him around my life

certainly influenced my decision, but honestly, i think the difference between a gay friend the community and a not so gay friendly committee, that didn't become apparent to me until i got to yale. so, i am from ohio, so i was just joint military because that's what i wanted to do. there were no qualms about it. i didn't even have a sort of consciousness about gay friendly communities and then existing and the military being anti-gays compared to the -- [inaudible] >> i would agree. >> my reason for joining was similar to everybody else's for joining. the reason why i was not opposed to ignoring them by what of don't ask, don't tell is, number one, i was married at the time.

in a different place -- >> was your wife a service never? >> no, she was not. she was not. i had always struggled with my identity when it came to being gay from a very early age. but when it came in and when i sign that paper knowing about don't ask, don't tell, i really didn't feel that it was an issue because, like katie has already mentioned, when you don't ask, don't tell you assume that it gives you your privacy. people are not coming up and asking you, and i don't really care if i can tell a not because i'm not being passed. but, unfortunately, that's not the way it plays out at all. it's a very basic policy, or it was a very basic policy. and just like a lot of people i didn't know that. i didn't understand that. >> my reason for joining space camp. i went to space camp when i was little and asked my parents how do i do this when i grow. and they told me to go to the air force academy, and i did it.

but i think one of things -- [inaudible] >> no. mike coming out process wise while i was at air force academy. i mean, i think one of the reasons so maybe which the military even if they're gay, talk about in the introduction of the book, if you know that, just like control -- your mention like four times in the book. i think it's just everything of people that joined the military just once that belonging and since that their join an institution that they can trust and have a family atmosphere. and that's what we all signed up to get was that, you know, that honesty, that camaraderie. i think that's why i stayed in the military now is that's what i really want. i really love going to work. and knowing that everyone around me at work cares about me and i care about them. i think that's what a lot of people joined the military.

>> i'm not from a military family. since i joined the my younger brother and three cousins have joined the marine corps so we are a military family now. [laughter] we all joined the exact same reasons as everyone else, and -- >> were they supportive of you when they cannot? >> yes, very supportive actually. as young, straight marines, we are actually, my brother, hit his training while he was deployed over the summer, and he told me the story over the phone the day after repeal, he said that they have the don't ask, don't tell training. they started questions, he stood up and said my brother is gay, he was discharged, this policy is bs. he didn't appreciate but that's what he said. [laughter] and that's the tone for the entire discussion but there was no negativity because somebody, you know, that had the same connection with everybody else

was not personally affected but was affected by this policy in a way indirectly. and so that made me really, really happy to hear that was a discussion taking place. and my cousins have been very supportive. but, you know, the climate will change and will continue to change for gay people in the military. like every has mentioned, it's been positive for a lot of individuals and i think danny principle and, it's about setting the tone and that visibility is on the reasons why i think the booths is so important is its visible. one of the reasons the magazine is in print, when someone walks by that maybe they see. it's not just electronic. there's a gay troops should i think that's why outserve is so important to. were such a visible organization across the world on military bases that it's changing people's minds. they see that there's a bunch of us serving right now but i think any world that we never came along and created this but i

think that we would be way far behind that we are right now. i think just the fact that so may service numbers came out and did things, where we progressed, i think farther ahead than our counterparts overseas because the leadership of people have said country and -- leadership people have shown. >> hello? we are on? >> we are on. >> please introduce yourself. >> my name is scott. i have a question about the magazine actually, it's kind of about -- i just wondered about the process of actually getting it on the military bases. was that smooth or did you have resistance or euros in terms of finding an actual base to distribute its? >> it was very smooth.

we have an element of people involved in the organization that are very into what they're doing, very committed, very talented. we had one of those individuals start to interface with the air force and army service to sugars. they were very positive about the magazine sending him a copy for the review. they approve to distribute it in several. when it was passed out to people who approved of their distribution, that being air force, they were on board. it was a very smooth process. it could have gone the other way, but we were lucky it did not. very lucky. bit i think is very passionate the distribution happen very deliberate think the shock to happen in the pentagon was a big freak out. i remember getting the call that day, what the hell are you guys doing, neighbors, neighbors. we did this before repeal had ever taken place.

they were like what are you guys doing? why do you guys be quiet until we get the repeal through? just like the pentagon working through and the folks there, and but the second editions, they're asking for copies. that's progress, rydquist they're very scared on the first edition. second edition, can you? endoscopic? that's progress. i think the fact i can distribution happen before repeal, progress the military farther. >> hi. time terry maloney, and my husband and our volunteers here at the library. first, the magazine when i contacted judgment images knowing we wanted for our archives, your first issues of the magazine, moving toward we want your archives for the archives if we will keep the new public library in mind. >> i have one. [laughter]

[inaudible] >> this isn't a question but it's more of an observation but one of our donors came to was originally three years ago, he's in his late '80s, and his bequest to us was predicated on our interest in gays in the military, and there are collection with gays in the military. it was not a strength of our collection, and he has subsequently funded as over $1 million. but when i sent him a copy first of trenton, this 88 year-old, i wish i would've brought the letter, his response to what you guys did, 67 years or whatever afterward were to was as gratifying as the response you're getting from people your age. it was a wonderful thing. so he thank you. >> was he a service member? >> this was his cause for decades, was gays in military and the fact that the book is out is a great thing. so thanks for being here.

>> don't be shy. >> i'm sarah. you talk a lot about policy changes and changes that need to be made still. can you talk although the more on the social level, more on the culture? because you're describing a fairly smooth transition, which i think is very uplifting, but i would believe that when there's been this kind of cloud and shroud for so long, there's got to be some cultural change needed. can you talk a little bit about that? do you have sort of a vision for where things might go? >> i think there's a lot of cultural work we have to do. if you look to our british counterparts they're still not one royal marines has come out of the closet yet as an introduction.

[inaudible] >> about 10 years after the british have changed their policy. i think, the brutes were at our conference. recovered in las vegas and they said it. there's not one royal marine out now. 10 years after they change the polls. is a huge social barrier we want to overcome quickly. we do all the stuff very visibly from the start to change the culture. i think that a lot of the work will be done so far, you know, with doing so much any me that we have, we have changed, we have made huge culture change in military but there's a lot we still have to do. and i think that the key to making these cultural changes are the visibility, and that's, and our plan to 2012 is going to bases, putting up those events, like here's outserve, a regional ski event in colorado, not just gay troops together in colorado but the straight troops. they have cheap ski tickets.

that exposes people, that's our -- if you knew the military, here's a bunch of cheated ski tickets we can get the straight troops introduced to the gay troops and that creates a culture change. that's outserve's biggest strategy next year, but let's focus on those social events, let's get people together and we can start to create those changes. >> falling on cedars question i'm carries about the cultural differences among the branches. i can't help but notice the two of you are both active duty still are in the air force. you were in the army academy and you in the marine corps. frankly, can is the marine corps more homophobic than the other service branches? are the other service branches friendlier? put it out of the i honestly, i think it's different where ever you are, whatever your station. the larger bases and smaller, i was at a small reserve, small pet and expert that's different than if i was in southern california.

you're going to have friendly people where ever you are, but at the same time it's the people in leadership positions that had to set the example for that to happen the unfortunate that was not in my case even though there was a chord in the unit, the person who's making the decision, i was having a conversation with was the person who just happened to be the unfriendly person. so i can make jokes about what the marine corps is actually like. it's very homoerotic. a lot of people see that in a lot of senses, but it's hard to explain. i suppose because of the way that the bonds and the brotherhood that exist in such a tightknit small service branches, and no one to be the toughest or put them it comes to one of your own, how they're going to react if the issue is indeed that you are gay. and in my case when it was my peers, it was very supportive.

so, you know, it's a case-by-case thing and it depends on what your station. >> i think a factor with a mention yet is the number of women and how that varies across each branch. some marines having the lowest, but the air force and the navy having many more women than as a portion of the branch of? >> as a proportion of the branch. more than the army. still, i think the average is around 17%, and i believe the statistic for the marines is just in the single digits in terms of representation get what percentage of west point cadets? >> it's a five to one ratio. so it varies between about 15-17%. and i think it branches that have been exposed to women, have been exposed to people different from them being able to perform in the same capacity.

that's a sentiment that has profound transformative impacts on this earth and the air force and the navy, the navy now, women can serve in almost any capacity except navy seals. were as the marine corps and the army would have been this combat operation because there was this perceived inequality at least pick that hasn't been changed by the retail? >> right pics of gay men could be in combat operations across all the services, but not women? >> right, right. so i think the two are connected in a way that is not, i know i'm describing it very abstract him but a way not so abstracted from having women in the military does impact perceptions of others, generally. >> the same way to feminism and

the gay rights movement closely. >> right. >> in the back. comments, questions, praise? [laughter] ..

>> i'm taking my boyfriend to my christmas party tomorrow, and i think that, you know, it's the reason that, you know, that's kind of the measure i've been using to see, you know, how successful it's been and, you know, i think a wide majority are doing that. so i think that it really has just been that smooth. i mean, i think it really has. >> agreed? [laughter] >> seem like -- [inaudible] the next one someone comes out to everybody in their unit, and there's some that are surprised, but for the most part everyone will, you know, that's great. you're still a great airman or a great soldier, a great marine, coast guard. and it's just we haven't heard a lot of negative experiences, not

that those don't exist or won't exist in the future. but on the whole it's just been, so far it's been very smooth, and the reason why people are so skeptical of that is that leading up to repeal, a lot of the argument against don't ask, don't tell repeal was it will race doesn't cohesion. so if things are going so well. what we've seen is unit cohesion n my personal experience and what have come out, those who have come out is that unit cohesion gets better. you can build that environment of trust, and trust is very important in our relationships with each other x. that's only improving. >> um, your boyfriend's a civilian? >> no, he's air force as well. >> has he met any of your colleagues already? >> we, he has. he was -- yes, he has. he was a writer for time magazine also for the last year. he was officer x for time magazine over the last year and, yeah, and that was definitely

interesting, too, you know, coming out, essentially, together on september 20th and having, you know, being on the same base and having, you know, commanders be like, oh, here's these two people in the media doing this. and, but, i mean, it's all been positive, it's, you know, people that i work with want to, you know, want me to bring him and, you know, meet him. it's really, i've had no issue at all. at all. >> did you meet by being writers -- [laughter] >> gay in the military and writing under pen names? >> i mean, we started a club. [laughter] the club's kind of small, but -- [laughter] it's a cool club. i think my shadow looked a lot better in the median than his did. [laughter] >> how did you meet in the media? >> we met randomly just through friends. he just moved to way, and a -- to base, and a mutual friends introduced us. we started dating, and they're

the ones that helped him start writing for time. so -- >> but in terms of the issues you raiseed about staying together, you know, when you change deployments, what's the acronym that you use for -- >> pcs? >> yeah. >> it's definitely, you know, something that's weighing on our minds because i'm up to move this next summer. marriages definitely happen a lot quicker in the hill tear for that reason, so a lot of people will get married to be able to stay together. and it's interesting, it's, i mean, i kind of keep pushing thinking i'll deal with it when it comes, but it is kind of, you know, what do you do when -- it's one of the things i think about for my future career. do i want to keep in a career that, you know, i can't raise a family in? and that's going to weigh on a lot of people's mind, and i don't know the answer to the question myself. you know, i want to raise that family and everything, and right now that's not possible.

so, you know, it is a very scary reality coming next summer and things like that. >> um, if you don't mind my asking, could i ask sue a question? how have gay veterans, gay former service members, people who, like you, have graduated from the service academies or been in the armed forces and are gay or lesbian reacted to these changes? has there been a lot of discussion, you know, within the veteran community? >> to repeal? >> repeal, sure. >> i mean, there's been a tremendous amount of celebration, you know? there's a sense of -- i think there's a real sense, and we saw it at the outserve summit, there was a summit conference in october of several hundred folks both active and veterans as well, and there was a real passing of the torch that, you know, because of don't ask, don't tell we, you know, veterans have had to be -- to

katie's point, we've had to be the face and the voice of our lgbt service members who t sill is silent -- still is silent, and we've done that for years. we've done the best that we could. and now effective september 20th our active duty folks, you know, jonathan, josh, so many others can now do that. so, you know, i think there's just a tremendous sense of, um, that we finally, you know, a little bit, i can't believe we accomplished it. we finally accomplished getting don't ask, don't tell repealed. and even though many of us are still going to be in the fight to get, to get benefits for partners and families, benefit equality, many of us are still going to be in the fight for transequality, but now we share that fight with our active duty folks because they don't have to be hidden any longer. so it's huge, yeah. >> that's very thoughtful. after west point, were you an

active duty officer, and this is before the dadt era, right? >> yes, yes, 100 years ago. [laughter] yeah, i actually graduate with the the first west point class to include women, and, you know, i would always laugh when people would be, like, this is going to be huge, it's like, you don't know anything. this is nothing. [laughter] >> 1908 was the first west point -- 908 was the first west point class? >> that's correct. yeah. and i served as an army officer in germany, company commander. i went through a witch hunt, i survived it because they couldn't find evidence on me, but it was incredibly traumatic. you know, you part of this unit k you're part of this unit with tremendous camaraderie, many of us in the military that's what we treasure is this bond of, with our, with the people that we serve with, and then suddenly you're the alien. and, um, during an investigation for three months i was just, i

mean, no one would sit with me at the mess hall at lunch, you know? it was just brutal. and even though i survived, i left after five and a half years because i never wanted to go through that again. i never wanted to be put in a position where i had to choose between my integrity and my job, and so, yeah, i left years ago. and then i got back in the fight in 2009 when we started nights out. and that's been, it's been tremendous. >> back in 1993 -- >> yes. >> promise thises the last -- this ises the last question. i know you're not on the panel. >> oh, please. these guys know me. you've given me the mic now, you may never get it back. [laughter] i have lots of stories. >> it was presented as a compromise short of full integration, right? did it, at the time you were out of the service at that point. >> yeah. >> were you optimistic it was positive change, and then you saw it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be? >> yeah. that's an interesting question because i had gotten out in '86,

and then in '93 after president clinton was inaugurated and that week, you know, kept his promise to sign an executive order and then congress said not so fast led by democrat sam nunn, i got very involved with at the time it was called campaign for military service, later became sldn, and did a number of speaking engagements to tell people here's what it's likeliving under this ban. when don't ask, don't tell was passed, it was pitched as a compromise. it was a compromise to keep congress from passing a law banning gays and lesbians from serving altogether. >> right. >> but we knew -- we didn't know how bad it would be, but there was a general feeling that they will find ways around don't ask is, and they will continue to find ways to kick people out, and that actually was borne out. so we knew we'd lost.

does that answer your question? >> it does, thank you. >> anymore? [laughter] >> one more question? >> yeah. one more question from the audience? or any concluding thoughts from our panel, anyone want to pipe in? anything i didn't ask? sure, one more. >> [inaudible] >> hi, i'm jodi. i just have a question about the number of gay and lesbian people in the military do you think, like, what's your supposition? >> recent estimates peg it about 66,000 which is approximately 2.2% -- >> pardon my ignorance, but out of how many service people? >> it's 2.2%, so whatever the math -- the military's currently downsizing -- >> but you're counting national guard, reserves. >> uh-huh, uh-huh. and that's a rather modest estimate, so just based on the number of people identified -- >> tens of thousands. >> and in just under two years

we've found already close to 5,000, so, i mean -- >> there's probably many more. >> that's the -- 67,000 is the williams institute's estimate based on any existing publications, and there are a lot of people who argue that that's underestimated. the total forces -- [laughter] see, you got me started. the total force is just under a million. so there are many who believe it's maybe twice that. >> right. >> but the williams institute right now are the only ones who have any cupid of database -- any kind of database estimate. >> and that's an institute at ucla that does a lot of demographic work related to the lgbt community. i wanted to take a moment to thank our panel. your stories have been incredible toen -- to listen to, and i appreciate your honesty and integrity and your work on this issue and your time tonight with this audience. so thank you all, and thanks to the audience as well.

can we get a round of applause? [applause] >> every weekend booktv offers 48 hours of programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. watch it here on c-span2. >> booktv explored the literary culture of beaumont, texas, with the help of our partner, time-warner cable. watch an interview from our time there next on booktv. >> hi, i'm sarah boehme, director of the stark museum of art in orange, texas, and we're here to view our special exhibition, medieval manuscripts from the stark collections. this is an exhibition of objects of beauty from our permanent collection. we have four medieval manuscripts, each is a book of hours from, um, the middle ages.

,and we show these annually, eah year, open to a different page to highlight a different illumination and to highlight a different theme in the exhibition. um, the first one is, um, by a flemish artist of the early 15th century, and we have it open to a miniature, as the main scene is called, with one of the scenes of the life of mary. the books of hours generally have prayers to the virgin mary, and each prayer begins with a standard illustration going through the birth cycle of jesus with mary's story overladen. and here we have the visitation where mary greets her cousin, elizabeth. and this is set on the page with a beautiful, elaborate decoration on the border and a highly illuminated initial piece, all characteristics of the type of illustrations that were done with these beautiful

books of hours. this book of hours is by a french artist, and it's also open to an illustration from the birth cycle, in this case the adoration of the magi, the wise men who have come to worship the child. this illustration is a little bit later, early 16th century, and it shows the classical influence as well as the medieval interest in, um, the use of gold and bold colors. and then the renaissance use of perspective and neoclassical columns setting off the beauty of the scene. this is an especially lovely illustration as is the, um, border decoration on the following, subsequent page. in the books of hours, in addition to the story of the birth cycle, there will be other standard illustrations. usually there are representations of the four e advantage