the civil war compared to the enormous newspapers in the north at the type. >> what would you like readers to take away after reading your book? many. >> my colleagues and i wrote the book to save the memories of the men and women who covered the war for the south. we would like these correspondents to be remembered because they deserve to be remembered, and part of the history that they wrote. >> pat mcnealy, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. ..

>> good evening everybody. thank you for braving the weather tonight and joining us here at the new york public library. this program is part of the libraries lgbt initiative which was started about two years ago and is a combination both of programming's, collection, support and fundraising to highlight the libraries lgbt historical collections. many people don't know that the new york public library is one of the greatest archives in history of lgbt civil rights in the country. and really our initiative is to bring those collections to really mass audience, both for new yorkers and online around the world. we are really replaced to have you all with us this evening. i'm going to introduce you one by one.

josh seefried, he is currently an active duty air force officer and 2009 grudge of the air force academy and operate under the pseudonym jd smith prior to the repeal. cofounder and codirector of outserve, regularly sought by me to represent gay active duty members and his only appeared in shadow today. he was an invited guest to the presidential guest to repeal don't ask, don't tell. jonathan mills is a staff sergeant, electronic technician for the u.s. air force currently stationed in washington, d.c. he is the first executive editor of outserve magazine. kathryn miller was a cadet at west point until she resigned in protest of don't ask, don't tell. she worked as one of outserve's main spokespersons during the fight to repeal don't ask, don't tell, appearing on national television and escorting lady gaga at mtv's music video awards. she is currently studied at yale and serves on outserve's board of directors. daniel hernandez was a lance

corporal in the u.s. marine corps since his separation from the brink is based have never and legal defense network wears work for the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. deputy op-ed editor at the new york times, previously of washington economic correspondent for the newspaper and the founding bureau chief of the city room news blog. and a metropolitan reporter covering transportation and seal. thank you all for being with us and i look forward to hearing from you. thanks. >> thank you all for coming tonight. it's possible to have a great discussion and often their discussions with a small crowd and with a large one. it is being record as well so others can watch this. when i was asked to serve on the panel i thought this was an amazing honor, i've got to be there. i read this book in one sitting. the stories of courage and sacrifice and integrity that in this book will really, really move you. and especially what impressed me before get to the panel was how

diverse the stories were. if you think that there was one experience being lgbt in the military, this isn't. people through rotc or people who went, become commissioned officers after college to people who enlisted, people have served for decades, people are still closeted, black know, closeted. could come up, discharge. it's an incredible resource. i hope you all will read if you haven't already. we will start by having a few minutes personal stories from each of the panel members. and then going to ask a bunch of questions. and then when we are ready will move to audience q. and a. and hope to have a rich and engaged discussion. so who will start? shall we start from the far end? >> sure. my name is josh seefried, first looking and has just air force. i'm her station at mcguire air force base, about two hours south of here.

i'm a cost analyst and a financial measure person for the air force. might expect with don't ask, don't tell is very interesting but i graduate from air force academy in 2009 and shortly after went to my training and was blacked out by my instruct instructor, changing my test scores, harassing me constantly. with help of the legal network attorney my instructor and that instructor end up turning around an outing me. i was removed from my job. they took away my ability to act with computer i worked in the chaplain's office during this time, and secretary gates met with this new policy, the third party outings were not allowed anymore, that kind of stop the process against me personally the kind of during this process i got from tasha i get so flustered with don't ask, don't tell producer to turn around and help create outserve and kind of a network where we could start networks together and kind of selectively voice our concerns to the military and to the people in the public.

a lot of people that contribute to the book are outserve members and what we did was just using social media to connect gay soldiers around the world, and to this day right now with over 4700 members across the globe that are connected, that have the support that are no longer alone that are able to meet on a regular basis, have that support right now, even post the don't ask, don't tell era. the two big reasons i agreed to do this project was i think it's important to give the courage that the rtp with military right now. i remember reading a book was at the air force academy of gazers never and getting encouraged from the pics i hope by putting up these stories other people pick up and the servicemembers who are serving or think about serving realize there's so many of us out there that are gay and it's okay. and second of all to change the mind. when it gave this book to someone at my base, is the

person that was very against the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, a day later he came back to me, and this man is over 50 and he was crying. use like i really had no idea that the kind of the people went through under don't ask, don't tell. it was kind of two goals in doing this project. it was a huge success. >> i'm staff sergeant jonathan mills. based in washington, d.c. i do satellite communication for the air force. my first experience with don't ask, don't tell came during my divorce. i grew up in a very conservative religious household, and through a variety of circumstances when i was younger, me and my then high school sweetheart made a decision to get married. later on in my air force career, about three years into my air force career, i had country

process of personal growth, as had she, and what can go go to the crucial moment of having that discussion that should've happened several years ago, that is when don't ask, don't tell really started to happen of these impacts on my life. and i came about because within the military we have a very tightknit community. all of our peers are very close, supervisor are very involved, and their subordinates. socialize and personalize really one big family. so when a situation like this comes up, and with regard to me and my divorce it was very hard to go and talk to anybody about that at the time because there was really nobody you could turn to for emotional support, for any other support that was new turning a divorce. at least the particulars. so the story i wrote in trenton

was an account of the actual coming out to my supervisor about my divorce. my supervisor is very involved in my life, and i tried to be as big as possible but he got it out of me, and that was the moment where i felt like everything that i had worked for so far was down the tube in that instant. and it was an. and the reason it wasn't is that my supervisor was a man of integrity, and he understood what it meant to be able to serve, to be able to serve with courage and with integrity, with real meaning of that word was, just as admiral mullen stated during his testimony. that was my first experience with don't ask, don't tell. going through that ending meeting josh and learning about outserve, to be more involved in the organization, they asked for initiatives, reach out internetwork a little bit more.

we cannot with the idea to outserve magazine, which has been more successful than i thought they would be. we are growing in readership which is great, and more importantly getting the word out about our organization, about the policies that affect us, and what i feel is most important is sharing our stories, stories that are in our time with the world. >> so, i'm katie miller. i was a west point cadet until august 2010. before they came out to my commanding officers and was subsequently discharged from the military. unlike jonathan mills, i knew i was giddy for entering the academy in 2008. but honestly i just didn't think that being gay had anything to do, would have any impact on my inability to serve or my willingness to serve. when i got to west point i realized that just wasn't the

case. it wasn't a don't ask, don't tell policy. it was, people may ask and i'm going to have to do my best to hide it. i'm going to have to come up with some sort of strategy. fabricated heterosexual dating history. i blatantly lied to my comrades. as was stated previously, the military is built on bonds but it is built on trust. especially at west point where it's an honor code that says a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do. i realize very quickly i was not becoming the person i want to be. and at west point there was an underground and there continues to exist an underground network of gays and lesbians there. and i was able to bond with my friends in that way. but no one was ever vocal about this. i had seen cadets before me

resigned due to the don't ask, don't tell policy, but they were silent about it. they didn't state the reasons why they left the academy. and in their failure to cite the reasons for the resignations, they also failed to vote in both changing anyway. so when i decided to resign, when i decided i was going to be able to serve in military as long as the don't ask, don't tell policy was in place, i made a conscious effort to make sure that i was going to change something, that is going to tell my story. so i networked with organizations such as outserve, such a service neighbors legal defense network. and also nights out which is west point lgbt alumni and allies. and i actually leak my letter of resignation to them and it went viral on the internet fairly quickly. and within a day and a half, and this is what i wrote about in my

portion of "our time," i had a beard on the rachel maddow show, unauthorized interview, done from my barracks room. and two days later i was discharged. maybe a week after that i joined the board of outserve. and i think don't ask, don't tell was such a disruptive policy in that the people that were most affected by with the very people that were prevented from saying anything. so the don't ask, don't tell policy made gay and lesbian servicemembers invisible and voiceless. and a new by joining outserve that being able to put an image to those that were invisible and be able to put a voice to those that were disenfranchised at the time, that that was going to have a profound impact. it's been an honor serving alongside everyone up here.

>> like i mention my name is danny an editor i served as a lance corporal in the marine corps for two years and was discharged in april 2010. because of don't ask, don't tell. my experience in the military and afterward is very similar to everyone else appeared i joined for a lot of the same reasons. fact that i was gay when i joined i knew i was gay but it was at the forefront of my mind. i joined for the reason anyone else joins military, to serve my country, the sense of duty, et cetera. but when i joined was a lot of skepticism from friends and family, just because, not because they knew i was gay because they just didn't see me as the one, of all people, to join the wrinkle. i'm not much bigger now but at the time i weighed a little more than 90 pounds. joining the marine corps was a bit of a reach for me, and it was tough by david and i was a successful and i loved being able to say for the first time that i am a marine. not something bringing people

can say. but i went through training with no problems. i was also a student at texas a&m. i had left to join the marine corps and they came back to finish my degree. but a few months before graduation i had a confrontation with some marines at a bar in which my sexuality came up. and in defense i did say that i was indeed gay. defend myself as well as the people i was with. that led to just me worrying about what would follow, and if i would be outed if people would find out. if my dreams of being a marine were going to be over. so the two closest individuals to me that were also, your, i told them that i was the. and they work to of my best friends in the marine corps, and i told him i was gay, and they supported me, told i had nothing

to worry about. so in my mind they were the guys who going to stand up for me in case something happened in my unit. i show up to a unit. i'm cold and my first sergeant's office and the first words out of his mouth are, are you gay? i hesitate, but i answer honestly and i said yes. i told. he asked. there's loopholes in the policy, as we have all known and heard. but i didn't compromise integrity. a few months later i was discharged ultimately. but before that i really want to fight to stay in the military. i graduated from college. the very core said they're going to pay back my student loans. so i started doing whatever college graduates would do, look for a job. and so i found a job in d.c., moved here, heard about the organization, i got a lawyer and through their health i would stay in the military and retain

much of the unfortunate that was not the case, but i figured that being in d.c. coming close to that organization i should join him and say something and do something about it is i joined the staff of the legal defense network. i've been there for about two years now and it's been a whirlwind of the year, as we all know. but the successes that been happening over the last year, the army, to continue come there's a lot to be done so life does go on as well. that's why all the stuff is underlined in the book, especially i look forward to continuing the fight. >> these are incredible stories. thank you for sharing them. i have a lot of question. i hope you'll have, too. where to start? first, simple question. those have been discharged from service academies or active duty service, is there any chance to reenlist? >> there's absolutely. so i think anyone has been discharged actually is able, and

danny can speak better to this than me, but me for example, i am looking to rejoin the military. so everything is by case by case basis. would you have to go to office or campus school or back to west point? >> either would be an avenue. for me personally it would be more efficient aggressive officer candidate school. >> and i don't have one i've talked to that in hundred% committed to returning to the melted. i forcefully there are a lot of obstacles in the way. i submitted an application for an officer commission but i've also tried to reenlist. the marine corps in particular is not looking for an overwhelming amount of people, and especially if they're going to have to retrain you and pay for the retraining they are not too interested so i have submitted applications. i have moved from recruiter to recruit, and my third recruiter, incredibly amazing, went to the process quickly and then there was a halt in which they just

didn't want to accept my application because they're going to have to retrain me. so it's been difficult. it's been frustrating, but i am committed to returning. that possibility is there. with the military cuts and everything else in the way, every branch is different. like i said, case by case but there's a lot to do when i return. >> very interesting. josh, tell me a little bit about outserve's growth. it's less than two years old, and gets expanded to 4700 members it, is that what you said? can you tell me something about, do you collect any demographic data? now as of september, when dadt was repealed, have you seen a surge in should? >> we really haven't seen a surge in mentorship, and the reason why is we keep it word-of-mouth on. you need to know someone to enter into our membership, and

that's just to respect privacy. and also to guarantee the fact that people are still active duty, and who they are. what was the question? [applause] [inaudible] >> oh, yeah. so we do have come we have done demographic data. it kind of breaks in with the normal military, 20, 23% of women is our membership. we breakdown within the largest branch, air force, army, navy. the largest member of our membership is air force. right now it's the second is made in and goes goes army, marine corps, then coast guard. so that's kind of the demographics of our group. and i think one of the things that's been so successful in outserve's growth is the use of social networking. the ability to connect people and then kind of fostered the leadership author of communism is a bunch of people you have in germany, and here's your network

to committee, now let's find out how you can get together and push it forward. so i think that we ever take a just social very, very effectively. how we organize as a team but we all use facebook just to make it internally within the organization. i know all outserve's board, it is between facebook and that is how i think with operator. so effectively and growing the organization. trailblazing in the way a political opposition for now be overnight. that's exactly how we continue. and i think that we can say that, 2011 and aggressively think next year will be even bigger for us. >> what's your editorial vision? how is it distributed? is entirely digital? >> trying to reach everybody. right now it's distributed through several, army air force exchange service, shopping

centers. in the united states and then we have several units overseas that have requested and it goes through cases where unit commanders were first sergeant, people in the leadership of contact us and ask for copies to send to the. we have some that we are doing through print to our largest distribution is through our electronic version, which is available on our website, or it's available for download of the actual digital version, just if you're looking at the print version. for a target leadership and distribution is number one. we are actively serving lgbt personnel, but equally as important is reaching those people within our community, our peers, people who do support us in people who don't support us. maybe they just don't see things the same where are they have had the same experience fix we are trying to reach them to try to change hearts and minds. and and beyond people in our community where tried to reach

our culture, the united states, to give them a window into how things are in the military, how they were under don't ask, don't tell and how they are going forward with repeal of don't ask, don't tell the one thing that struck me that you are all incredibly young, and i imagine that you were teenagers when 9/11 occurred. is that correct? i mean, how much did the ongoing u.s. involvement, campaigns in iraq and afghanistan affect your decision to join the military? are you surprised, i guess, i mean one thing that i'm very curious as a spectator is whether the timing of dadt was important with the campaigns in afghanistan and iraq. >> i think it's interesting because if we look at a graph when don't ask, don't tell was implement in 1993, the discharged actually increase of

gay and lesbian servicemembers. so this is from 1993, increase, increase come increase. 2001 can't decrease. the number of discharges that occurred. what was happening there is not that there were -- they were just less of them. but rather it -- with the opportunity to serve overseas, we needed every man and woman, gay or straight, to be serving their country. it's incredibly ironic that the discussion, the argument about gays can't be in the military because they will disrupt unit cohesion your this seems completely asinine and contradictory if we think that we can have gays, if we need is a legend the most from the time for because they are contributing to unit effectiveness to combat effectiveness. so i think our campaign to both

iraq and afghanistan have shown how much sexual orientation is not an issue to servicemembers. >> do you think it only took until now -- so why did it take until now to repeal occur, given the need for all a capable service to continue serving during the past decade? was it mostly political? did social issues have to evolve? i know it's a very macro question, but i'm curious about that. >> i mean, i have my own opinions. [laughter] >> i think the landscape had a lot to do with passionate the social to social cues have evolved and will continue to revolve on lgbt issues but the political landscape, it was literally later than what it is today, last year when don't ask, don't tell was actually voted on and passed through. it was really the people in

congress who pushed it through to make it happen. and so the political landscape was right but hand in hand with the views, it was a bipartisan vote that made this happen. >> one of the things, really give props to as president obama. when he brought in admiral kime his leaders and, we got to change that policy but if we would've gotten when a senate hearing was happening, and one of those chiefs would've said that repeal the policy, and to the very end of the whole process would have been derailed. president obama really should great leadership saying everyone needs to get in line and change this paul hibbard i think that's what really, i think he shown that leadership to change this policy helped us get past that point. because we needed of military leaders to get in line with the policy. and he made that happen. >> service chiefs were not completely unanimous, right click your secretary gates, admirable and, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff speaking

strong expressions of support for repeal but there was a look at more dissent among the top ranks. that was the subject of some controversy. >> but at the end of a winner all asked the question of the senate hearing can we make this happen, and will it be any issue, they all answered no, there will be issue. so i think that's what got us past. there was always issues. the marine chief is now saying we are leading on the issue. so i think they are all past any problems that they had at the two of your active duty, how has implementation gone over the past three or four months since it took effect? >> in my experience it's been very transparent. i haven't seen a lot of changes. either on policy level or just on social interaction level. i'm not sure if that's just because that's kind of unit i'm in right now or if that is how it is across the force. led to believe based on the

network that it is like that around the world where the u.s. military is, it all went away and it would continue to serve the way they always have. >> i think i think the exact same way, there's not been really much change but i think will start to see some of the issues rise up come in a similar lot of the military service members change and move. people start to realize the inequality that now exist in military. pretty don't ask, don't tell we just ignore the new quality. they? what they're but now have to see where unit commanders will have to see their gay troops who are married legally and they will be able to apply for joint spouses times and allowed to see and watch fans get torn apart. i think that when units, you know, these folks are our friends and they'll have to watch families torn apart or issues not detail but i think we start to see the summer when the military starting to do their moves, most aggressively, we'll start to see some of these units

raise issues. i think a lot of the issues will come from our straight friends that say this is not there. at the very core of the matter is families and in the cold and that is not there right now. under don't ask, don't tell. [inaudible] >> is the defense of marriage act the next for those who are seeking a quality for people in military? is the focus going to turn to that? >> that's a huge focus right now, especially for us. we recently filed lawsuits. defined spouse in a certain way. pathetically same-sex couples. so that is a huge priority for us as we move forward. like you said, not even three months after, still to make sure all of our servicemembers, equal service, equal benefits. that's the bottom line.

no special treatment, just as they move, whether they are active gay members or one civilian, all service are treated the same. >> are their prospects? >> i think the. we need to not underestimate the impact the military can have on progressing the issue. i was at the first congressional hearing regarding doma since implementation 19 and six, and i was astounded by the several congressmen who brought up, or who asked the question, how -- [inaudible] >> no, i was a lowly congressional intern. just sitting in the crowd. but that many congressmen pose the question, how does doma affect our servicemembers. and the answers, and, we can go through the range of military

than the feds are not afforded, the emotional support, but i think we are going to find that outserve as was many military organizations are going to have strong statements, going to provide a strong argument for the repeal of doma. one of the things beyond just train them went to realize there are things we can do it now. and i think that a lot of people haven't caught on to that because the report of the working group releases which is so long, people did realize that. people want to talk about the assignment. when they research it and it says we can do this to ensure we can get the surround doma right now. for us, we will be going on a two-pronged attack. we need to go with these loopholes right now. you should introducing this into the units now, give us this, and also you have a general doma repeal but there are plenty of actions that can be taken right now around doma. >> just through --

>> just through directed dod action. they would be no congressional action needed. those actions can be taken and. depending on -- [inaudible] >> i'm not sure. i think they are political. they want to take baby steps on the issued and maybe we won't doubly take baby steps. so i think that just in general the media has caught on the fact that here in this report, into small part of the of the port is it his all these right you could get the we recommend against it. so i think that, you know, once the media starts catching on to that they will realize there's a lot of things we can do around doma right now. [inaudible] >> correct. that's one of the coolest part is, for example, a story by ryan quinn, how'd you come out to anyone at all, and so the story in this book was the first of you to come out and had to come out to his parents the weepy for the book enough. that's the coolest part of the book is a really did keep a

motivation to come out and then inspired others to come out as well. >> exciting to read. unit these viral videos that on youtube, servicemembers around the world coming out to vegas, family members, giving a range of responses. in many cases incredibly moving. key come in your experience, what was the reaction like when your resignation letter became public and then when you went on the rachel maddow show. >> it happened within about a 48 or 72 hour time period. i was -- sure that only family member back home that new. so when i came out, when i came out on the rachel maddow show i was literally coming out to the world. again, it was in and i'm not right and if you don't come it was very poor quality. clearly a skype interview. it was rushed.

there were audio problems. [laughter] i wanted to run back from dinner to change uniforms to look presentable. the obstacles were many, and significant. i remember, i remember i had a tendency, it was an extra webcam. i had a tendency to look not direct at the webcam but the image on the screen, which does not videotape well, does not record well. so the producer, andy dallas said, just let your screen go blank. so i did and i was literally looking into this black screen from this sort of black hole of unknowing is. and coming out to not only my family, and not only myself but also to millions and millions of people, to an audience that it

would never be able to fully grasp their vastness. i imagined the sleeping foyer at west point usually not the sight of such -- >> right. [laughter] big a public moment in. >> right, right. and the funny thing was that i admitted to you with some of my lesbian friends there. and i said hey, you should probably separate yourself from me this week, because i don't want kashmir i don't want any of you to get caught in the crossfire. >> how did the academy react? how did your fellow cadets react? how did the instructors react? >> surprisingly positive. even if there was a negative action it was geared towards the man and which represented by some as opposed to the minute which i conducted, as opposed to what i was advocating on behalf of. but i did feel, obvious he i was going to be discharged, so i did

feel like even if it wasn't explicit that there was some support there. >> and has there been, those were in the air force, are you saying that more colleagues have come out, or hasn't been gradual? >> i would say there's not been an explosion. [laughter] a few people have come to me and said, you know, i am relieved at the current state of policy, although it's not going to impact wanted to in the future. maybe have enough courage to go into commanders, i'm actually married, or i'm planning on getting married. but there hasn't been a mass amount of people in my experience that have came out just because don't ask, don't tell went away. for all abuzz, for most of us, all of our close friends kind of

know anyways how a lot of us have friends who are not in the military because of don't ask, don't tell we've had to create a whole lifestyle. so a lot of us, it just has brought a lot of change in the way we interact with our coworkers. in the future there might be other examples that aren't exactly the same, but this is what it is. >> when we look with our service, the membership that happened over the past few much we do see kind of a lot of people coming out. back when the president signed legislation into the period right before, and to september, we saw a trend, like 40% about february timeframe had come out to one person. by the time implementation of camera, the numbers were up about 70 or 80% had come out to lease one other person in the unit. we have seen a trend of people coming out more and to take one of the goals with the magazine was, we released the magazine addition right on september 20

with 1 of people honored faces, you, let's just rip off the baby, create a big media that people like oh, he's can't do anything more crazy. it kind of, you know, people got the scary, oh, well, all the gays came out of nothing happen. i think that we do try to make a big bangs on the 22 of the kind of desensitizing people, because i think they would have done what we did in the mexican he would've had a story that said here's one person come after his in a person coming out, but i mean, we had a huge -- and i think intel. i think it helps the military. i think we saw a lot of progress because of what we did. it if i'm remembering correctly -- [inaudible] would you tell about telling your supervisor, who had really been pressing, and you are trying to, you, if i'm not

mistaken he was basically really shocked, but ultimately ended up supporting you. am i telling it right? >> absolutely. yes, you're stating it exactly on what appear i've not been in touch with outside of he wrote a short message to me on facebook today it was repealed, saying i wanted to congratulate you. i always thought you were a great true. i want to say that and have this discussion with you at an earlier time but since that day, i am showing my appreciation for you. that was about the extent of our interaction. but at that time certainly he was shocked, and i expected him to be shocked but i expected him to react differently. i feel like there are a lot of people in the military that strive to follow the letter of the law.

and follow every single order to the t. and i pegged him as one of those people so i was very nervous and explain that to them because i was pretty sure how that would end. ivies he didn't go that way and like i mentioned earlier, he understood what it meant to follow our core value rather than a technicality or a letter of the law. >> you mention an underground network at west point, has become aboveground. >> that's actually really interesting point. so, the coast guard academy has established a gsa, a gay straight alliance, that just launched over the past week. and there are discussions also circulating around west point as was the naval academy, and maybe the air force academy as well. so there he is, i mean, similar

to our membership and generally, but there is certainly a different sentiment regarding the act of coming out and the comfort people to pick one thing i'm curious about is whether the coming out process by the process in a military has been different for officers versus enlisted members. josh and katy were in the service academy. jonathan was an enlisted member of a punk record you were enlisted but applying to become commissioned officers. is that, i mean, from expense and military, is the rank and hierarchy are very, very important part of the military culture and military operations. is it different for enlisted your lgbt versus people who are in command positions? >> i think it is.

i think that it's one of the reasons we have to look at issues because it's such an el. we didn't get the equal opportunity protections. for example, like you said i'm an officer. i only have another officer in my office so there's only two of us. i'm not going of any issues with any of my troops calling me names earned income but one of my troops may or what if one of my troops didn't have a friend the commander as an officer. so i think the situations can be drastically different. and one of the reasons that we needed to the equal opportunity, the inspector general, such a big deal to go and i think a lower enlisted want to go -- [inaudible] >> correct. so i mean, i think that, i think the routes are different and i think the experiences are different, and requires different types of actions. so in my opinion they are

different. i would agree. when i was going through my discharge process, i was not in a leadership position, and they did not have very from the command. the exact words of my first sergeant were, if you experience any more harassment for this gets out, he brought this onto yourself. that was it. it was really no other outlet that i had to go to. whereas in officer, i would have some kind of leadership and some kind of, another place to go, which is underlined the importance of making sexual orientation a protected class we can afford. that's another one of the priorities that is needed in one of the thank you note in the book is that the change in policy of course does not apply to gender expression, transgender. could you ever see that changing? >> it should change and i think it's one of the things we can achieve relatively quickly because we don't have to work through congress to get it done.

it's a pentagon policy that we need to do with. so it's one of those policies that we need to address very quickly because we don't have to go. ici do see a change. it's unfortunate we couldn't do just one thing for action, just the other services, our counterparts overseas, but it's something that we can attack here in the near future. be i would like to open up to the audience, but let me get one more question if you don't win. are any of you from military families? the reason i ask is, as you've got to know more gay and lesbian people in the civilian world you often get asked the question of why you joined? and how do you explain that? i guess i'm asking, you joined an environment that it was not welcome at the time. i would have that's different.

>> my father is indeed, a master sergeant, and i sits areas also than two deployments to iraq. bembenek and you still in the army? >> he is still in a service. not any active component though. and growing up with him, you know, having him around my life certainly influenced my decision, but actually i think the difference between a gay-friendly community and not so gay from the community, that didn't become apparent to me until i got to yell back passionate got to you. i am from ohio. i just joined the military because that's what i wanted to do. there were no qualms about it. i didn't even have a sort of consciousness about gay-friendly community's, then existing in the military being anti-gays compared to --

[inaudible] >> i would agree. >> my reason for joining was similar to everybody else's reason for joining. the reason why i was not opposed to ignoring the indictment of don't ask, don't tell is number one, i was married at the time. in a different place -- >> was your wife a service there were? >> no, she was not. she was not. i had always struggled with my identity when it came to being gay at the very early age, but when i came in and i signed that paper, knowing about don't ask, don't tell, i really didn't feel that it was an issue because like katie already mentioned, when you don't ask, don't tell you assume that it get you your privacy. people are coming up asking you, at what is asking me, i don't care if i get, or partially

that's not the way it plays out at all. is a very basic pashtun and pace of policy, or it was a very invasive pulls. like a lot of other people i didn't know that. >> my reason for joining was space can't. i went to space camp in as little. i asked how do i grow up and get there? they said go to the air force academy, so i did it. but i think one of the things -- [inaudible] >> no. my coming out process while i was at the air force academy, and i think, i think one of the reasons that some people join the military even if they're gay, it's about time in the introduction of the, you will note if you just like control of the whole book on your mention for dems in the book and i think it's just everything a person that joins the military, once a sense of belonging, to their joint institutions they can trust and have a family atmosphere. that's what we all signed up to get was that, that honesty, that

camaraderie. i think that's why i stay in military now, that's what i really want. i really love going to work and knowing that everyone around at work cares about me and i care about them. i think that's what a lot of people join the military and they strive to be. >> i'm not from military family. i joined bill, my younger brother and three cousins have all joined. we are a military family now. [laughter] but we all joined for the exact same reasons as everyone else, and -- >> would be supportive of you when you cannot? >> yes, very supportive actually. as a young, straight marines where actually might brother, he got his training over the summer, and he told me to start over the phone the day after don't ask, don't tell, and he said they have the don't ask, don't tell training.

they started questions. he stood up and said my brother is gay, he was discharged, this policy is yes. he didn't appreciate but that's what he said. [laughter] and that set the tone for the entire discussion but there was no negativity because somebody that had the same connection with everybody else was not personally affected but was affected by this policy in a way indirectly. and so that made me really happy to hear that was the discussion taking place. and my cousins have been very supportive. but the climate will change to will continue to change for lgbt people are in military, and like everyone has mentioned, it's been positive for a lot of these individuals are i think danny brings up a good point. it's about setting the tone. it's one of the reasons i think the book is so important that it's visible. one of the reasons that the

magazine is in print, everyone walks by that magazine they see. it's not just electronic. they see that there are gay troops are. i think that's what outserve so important right now. where such a visible organization across the world. it is changing people's minds because they see that there's a bunch of asserting right after i think a world that we never came along and created this. i think that we would be way far behind that we are right now. get a, its effect so many came out and did things, where we progressed. i think farther ahead than our counterparts overseas because of the leadership of people are showing. >> let's get questions from the audience. is there a microphone to pass around? >> hello? we are on? please introduce yourself. >> my name is scott. i have a question about the magazine actually.

it's kind of nuts and bolts but i just wonder about the process is actually getting it on the military bases. was that smooth or did you have resistance or heroes in terms of finding an actual distribution? >> it was very smooth. we had an incredible amount of people involved in the organization that are very into what they're doing, during committee, very talented. we have one of those individuals stars to interface with the air force and army seeing distributors. they were very positive about the magazine. we sent them a copy for review. they uprooted trees distributed server places run. when the information was passed out to the people who approved their distribution, that being air force, army, marines, their onboard. it was a face smooth process that could have gone the other

way, but we were very lucky. a very positive. i think it's funny about the distribution because the distribution happened relatively easy but i think the shock that happen at the pentagon was a big freak out. i would never getting a call that day like what the hell are you guys doing? they were scared. we did this before repeal had ever taken place. they are like what you guys doing? why don't you guys be quiet until we get the repeal through? just like the pentagon working group and the folks there, and but the second edition, they're asking for copies. that's progress. they are very scared of the first issue. the second, can you guys send us a few copies? that's progress. i think the fact, that distribution happened before repeal ever took place progress the military even farther. >> hi. and my husband and i are volunteers here at the library.

first the magazine, when i contacted josh by e-mail, just knowing that we wanted for our archives your first issues of the magazine, and moving forward we watch her archives for the archives. >> i will keep the new york public library in mind. >> we will auction it off. [laughter] >> this isn't a question, more of an observation but one of our donors came to was originally three years ago. he's in his late '80s, and his request to us was predicated on our interest in gays in the military it and our collections with gays in the military. it was not a strength of our collections, and he has subsequently funded us over $1 million, but when i sent him a copy first of "our time," i wish i'd gotten a letter, his response to what you guys did, 67 i would've years after world war ii, was as gratifying as the

response you're getting from people your age. it was a wonderful thing. so he thank you. >> was he a service member? >> yes, and this was his cause for decades with gays in military. and the fact the book is out is a great thing. >> question? don't be shy. >> hi. i'm sorry. you talk a lot about policy, changes and changes that need to be made stupid can you talk a little bit out more on the social level, more on the culture? because you're describing a fairly smooth transition, which i think is very uplifting, but i we believe that when there's been this kind of cloud and

shroud for so long, there's got to be some cultural change need. can you talk all a bit about that? do you have sort of a vision for where things might go speak us i think a lot of culture work we have to do. if you look at our british counterparts there is still not one royal marine that is, out of the closet yet. >> how many years after? >> about 10 years after the british have changed their policy. the briefs were at our conference. where conference in las vegas and they said it does not one royal marine out right now, 10 years after releasing the policy. there is a huge i guess social area we want to overcome really quickly and that ties into the visibility. we do all this stuff very visibly and we start to change the culture. i think that a lot of the work will be done so far with doing so much of me that we have changed. we made huge culture change in the military but there's a lot we still have to do.

and i think the key to making these cultural changes are the visibility and our plans of 2012 is going to base his complaint up, here's outserve, we're about to announce tomorrow an original ski event in colorado, not just gay troops together in colorado but straight troops. that exposes people, i think that is our strategy. if you can get the military, here's a bunch of cheap ski tickets, get the straight troops introduced to the gay troops and that creates a culture change. that's what outserve's biggest strategy next year is let's focus on the social events, let's get people together and we can start to create those changes back falling on cedars question, about the cultural differences among the branches, i can't help but notice the to do are both active duty still are the air force, you were in the armies military academy and you in the marine corps. frankly, is the marine corps

more homophobic? either other services that are friendly? >> i mean, i honestly, i think it's different where ever you are, whatever your station. larger bases and smaller, i was in a small town in texas and that's very different than if i was in southern california. you know, you're going to have friendly people where ever you are, but at the same time it's the people that have set the example for that progress to happen. unfortunately, that was not in my case even though there was support in the unit. the person who is ultimately making the decision i was having a conversation with was the person who just happened to be the unfriendly person. and so, you know, i can make jokes about what they were record is actually like. it's a very homoerotic. and a lot of people see that and in a lot of senses, but it's

hard to explain i suppose because of the way that the bonds and the brotherhood that exist is such a tightknit, no one can be the toughest. but then when it comes to one of your own how they're going to act if the issue is indeed that you are gay. and in my case when it was my peers, it was very supportive. i think it's a case-by-case thing. it depends on where your station. >> do you agree? >> i think for the most part. i think a factor we haven't mentioned yet is the number of women and how that fares across each branch. submarines having the lowest, the air force and the navy having many more women in it as a proportion of the branches of? >> yes. >> more than the army? >> more than the army. more than the army. so i think the average is around 17%, and i believe that this tested for the marines is in the

single digits in terms of representation. yet what percentage of west point cadet? >> it is a five to one ratio. it varies between 15 and 17%. but i think branches that have been exposed to women that have been exposed to people different from them being able to perform in the same capacity, that is a sentiment that has profound transformative impacts on a service. with the air force and navy, the navy now, women can serve in almost any capacity except navy seals. yo, whereas the marine corps and the army still has his bar on combat operations. so there is this perceived inequality at least. >> and that hasn't been changed by repeal of? >> right right. so gaming can be in combat operations across all the services but not women? >> right, right.

so i think the two are connected in a way that is not -- i know i am describing a very abstractly by way that is not very abstract. having women in the military does impact perceptions of others, generally. >> the same way that the feminism and gay rights movement have been closely. >> right. ..

>> can you guys give some examples of the kinds of stories you are hearing from the field? i mean, any examples from, you know, the network just to help people understand, you know, where people were, came out and were surprised at the reaction or, you know, anything like that? >> i think the widest story and the most common one we're hearing is taking a significant other to an event. you know, one of our members who was on a few, marines, he did the media today ask and the last few days. and i'm tacking my -- taking my boyfriend to my christmas party tomorrow. and i think, you know, that's kind to have measure i've been using to show how successful it's been. you know, i think a wide majority are doing that, so i think it really has been that mood. i really think it has.

agreed? [laughter] >> seems like -- [inaudible] someone comes out to everybody in their unit, and there's some that are surprised, but for the most part everyone will, you know, that's great, you're still a great airman or a great soldier, marine, coast guard. it's just we haven't heard a lot of negative experiences, not that those don't exist or won't exist in the future. but on the whole it's just within, so far it's been very smooth, and the reason why people are so skeptical of that is that leading up to repeal, a lot of the argument against don't ask, don't tell repeal was with it will disrupt unit cohesion. so everything's going so well, that doesn't bode well for the other side because what we've seen is unit cohesion in my personal experience and with those that have come out is that unit cohesion gets better and our relationships with each

other. that's only improving. >> um, your boyfriend's a civilian? >> no, he's air force as well. >> has he met any of your colleagues already? >> yes, he has. he was a writer for time magazine, um, also a pseudonym for the last year. he was officer x for time magazine over the last year and, yeah, that was definitely interesting, too, you know, coming out, essentially, together on september 20th and having, you know, being on the same base and having commanders be like, oh, here's these two people in the media doing this. but, i mean, it's all been positive, you know? people that i work with want to, you know, want me to bring him and, you know, meet him. it's really, i've had no issue at all, at all. >> did you meet by being synonymous writers who were gay in the military? [laughter] writing under pen names? >> i mean, we started a club. [laughter] the club's kind of small, but

it's a cool club. i think my shadow looked a lot better in the median than his did. [laughter] >> how did you meet him? >> we met ran randomly just through friends. he just move today the base, and mutual friends introduced us. and two weeks later after i started dating him, he started working with the ones that helped him start working for time. >> but in terms of the issues you raised about staying together, you know, when you change deployments, what's the act ro nhl you used? >> pcs in. >> yeah, that one. >> some of that's weighing on our minds because i'm up to move this next summer. marriages really happen quickly because you move, a lot of people will get married to, you know, be able to stay together. and it's, it's interesting, it's, i mean, i keep pushing aside thinking i'll deal with it

when it comes here, but it is, you know, what do you do -- it's one of the things i think about for my future career, do i want to keep in a career that, you know, i can't raise a family in, and i've got to keep moving every three years? that's going weigh on a lot of people's minds, and i don't know the answer to the question myself. you know, i want to raise that family and everything, and right now that's not possible. so, you know, it is a very scary reality come next summer and things like that. >> um, if you don't mind my asking, could i ask sue a question? [laughter] how have gay veterans, gay former service members, people who, like you, have graduated from the service academies or been in the armed forces and are gay or lesbian reacted to these changes? has there been a lot of discussion within the veteran community? >> to repeal? >> repeal, sure. >> i mean, there's been a tremendous amount of celebration, you know? there's a sense of -- i think there's a real sense, and we saw that the outserve submit, there

was a summit conference in october of several hundred folks both active and veterans as well. and there was a real passing of the torch that, you know, because of don't ask, don't tell we, you know, veterans have had to be the -- to katie's point, we've had to be the face and the voice of our lgb service members, lgbt service members who the t still is silent. and we've done that, for years we've done the best that we could. and now effective september 20th, our active duty folk, you know, jonathan, josh, so many others can now do that. so, you know, i think there's just a tremendous sense of, um, that we, we finally accomplished, you know, a little bit i can't believe that we accomplished it. we finally accomplished getting don't ask, don't tell revealed. and even though many of us are

still going to be in the fight to get benefits for partners and families, um, benefit equality, many of us are still going to be in the fight for transequality. but now we share that fight with our active duty folks because they don't have to be hidden any longer. so huge -- >> that's very thoughtful. after west point, were you an active duty officer? and this is before the dadt e rah, right? >> yeah. 100 years ago. i graduate with the the first west point las to include women, so experienced some big changes in that. >> wow. >> and i would always laugh. people were like, this is going to be huge, and the military's like, you don't know anything. [laughter] >> 1980 was the first class -- >> that's correct. >> wow. >> and i served as an army officer in germany, i was a platoon leader, company commander. i went through a witch hunt, i survived it because they couldn't find evidence on me,

but it was -- >> wow. >> -- incredibly traumatic, you know? you're part of this unit with tremendous camaraderie like josh talks about, you know? many of us in the military, that's what we treasure is this bond of, with our, with the people that we serve with. and then suddenly you're the alien. um, and during an investigation for three months i was just, i mean, no one would sit with me at the mess hall at lunch. i left after five and a half years because i never wanted to be put this a position where i had to choose between my integrity and my job, and so, yeah, i left years ago. and then i got back in the fight in 2009 when we started nights out. and that's been, it's been tremendous. >> back in 1993 -- >> yes. >> promise this is my last question. i know you're not on the panel. [laughter] >> oh, please. these guys know me. you've given me the mic, now you may never get it back.

[laughter] >> back in '93 when dadt came onboard, it was presented as a compromise short of full integration, right? did it, at the time you were out of the service -- >> yes. >> were you optimistic that it was positive change and then you saw that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, or -- >> yeah. that's an interesting question because e had gotten out in '86, and then in '93 after president chenton was inaugurated -- clinton was inaugurate canned that week kept his promise to sign an executive order and congress said not so -- or was going to do that, and congress said not so fast led by senator sam nunn, i got very involved with campaign for military service and did a number of speaking engagements to tell people here's what it's like living under this ban. when don't ask, don't tell was passed, it was pitched as a compromise. it was a compromise to keep congress from passing a law

banning gays and lesbians from serving altogether. >> right. >> but we knew -- we didn't know how bad it would be, but there was a general feeling that they will find ways around don't ask, and they will continue to kick people out. and that actually was borne out. so we knew we'd lost, yeah. does that answer your question? >> it does, thank you. >> any more? [laughter] >> shall we take one more question? >> yeah, one more question from the audience. any concluding thoughts from our panel? anything i didn't ask? sure, one more. >> [inaudible] >> hi, i'm jodi. i just have a question about the number of gay and lesbian people in the military do you think, like, what's your supposition? >> recent estimates peg it about 66,000, approximately 2.3% --

>> pardon my ignorance, but out of how many service people? >> it's 2.2% -- >> okay. >> national guard, reserves? >> uh-uh huh, uh-huh. and that's a rather e modest estimate. so just based on the number of. >> so tens of thousands. >> and in just ten years we've found close to 10,000. >> there's probably many more. >> 67,000 is the williams institute's estimate based on any existing publications, um, and there are a lot of people who argue that that's underestimated. [laughter] the total forces. see, you got me started. the total force is just under a million, so there are many who believe it's maybe twice that. but the williams institute right now are the only ones who have any kind of database estimate. >> based at ucla doing a lot of

important work related to the l lgbt community. your stories have been incredible to listen to, and i really appreciate and admire your honesty and your integrity and your work on this issue and your time tonight with this audience. so thank you all and thanks to the audience as well. can we get a round of applause? [applause] >> every weekend booktv offers 8 hours of programming -- 48 hours of programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. watch it here on c-span 26789. >> and now joining us on booktv is ron kessler. his most recent book, "the secrets of the fbi." mr. kessler, you've done a whole series of books along this line, correct? >> i've done a lot of fbi-related, intelligence-related books. i like to go after secrets, and

can i even did a book on palm beach because there are a lot of secrets there in the society. i call that my midlife crisis. but, you know, i think people especially with the internet and tv want to get new information about important subjects, and that's what i try to do with these books. >> so what are two things that are revealed in this book that we should know about? >> well, one is how the fbi breaks into homes and offices to plant bugging devices. of course, it's all court authorized, but it's incredible stories before they do a break-in, they will conduct surveillance of the premises, they figure out who goes in, who goes out. on the night of the break-in, they watch anybody at the home who might go back to premises, and if they do, they'll divert them. they'll stage a phony traffic accident, they'll give them a ticket, they'll even take a photo of any dog that might be on the premises and show to it a veterinarian who's on contract, and then the veterinarian will

prescribe just the right amount of frank by riser -- tranquilizer to shoot into the dog, knock them out, and at the opened -- end of the break-in, they wake hip up. another item is the real story about how the fbi caught robert hanson which is quite different from what you see in the movie "breach." it's a real story. but there are a lot of secrets about marilyn monroe, about vince foster and even the killing of osama bin laden because the tbi was actually involved in that. >> with well, you obviously have a lot of inside sources. do you get pressured in any way to reveal those sources? >> do i get what? >> pressured to reveal those sources? >> no, i don't. and people ask me how do i get them to ?awk usually i would waterboard them, that works pretty well. but i think after a while you develop some trust. i think they feel that i