>> thank you very much. it's a pleasure to be here today. i want to start out with a survey and ask this question. think back to when you were 12 years old. when you were 12, did you have a favorite college for all team, and by a show of hands i just want to know how many -- it doesn't have to be one now but how many of you had a favorite team when you were 12? are right, we can make a lot of interesting points about that show of hands. looks to me like about two-thirds, and that says for me

a number of things but it really, the point i wanted to start with is that if you are like me and grew up in this country, you would have taken it for granted that teams like north carolina state and georgia tech would be playing on saturdays. they would garner a great deal of attention. they'd be they be on television and radio. you would read about them on the sports page and people would care about what happened. thousands of people would go to these games, but the united states is the only country in the world that has universities that do this sort of thing, that have what you would have to call commercial sports. because if you look at the north carolina state football team, and it's the same in this respect as north carolina, duke, wake forest. in most respects the foot wall program at these colleges looks

and feels and walks a lot like a professional team. and actually when they are tossed out on espn, they are actually, the teams are actually treated as a franchise in the same way the 49'ers are. so why did i get into the subject and how do i look upon it? well, a little bit of autobiography. i had my favorite team. my team was georgia tech. i grew up in atlanta and i had the good fortune to go to a few games, and watch them play against the likes of duke and alabama. and so i was interested in that and when i was in high school i was the sports editor of my high school newspaper but then that was it. i was just a normal red loaded american kid with a sports interest and i went off to

graduate school and studied economics and then i began work at the university of maryland, which is a heat research university in college park, maryland. one of the things that surprised me the most about eating their was i knew i was going to be in the presence of really some great commerce and they knew that, and i thought at lunchtime we would talk about research articles and are squared and growth rates and in fact they did, but they also talked about -- to an extent that i was very surprised. than when i came to dig university you will not be surprised to learn that it's the same thing there. of course they talk about articles and they talk about service teaching and research but there is also a great deal of discussion about sports, especially this time of year because basketball is a thing unto itself. and so, then it began dawning on

me that there really was a parallel reality because if you go to what duke university says about itself and its vision statement, duke publishes a mission statement and it's posted on the web. you will find a very long statement that talks about teaching research and health and service, and there is not a mention of the athletic programs that duke has. but duke is not a typical in this way. one of the things i did for the book was to look at the web sites for 58 universities that are in one of the five big conferences big 10, sec big 12 back then and the pat 10, now the pack, i guess is 12 today plus notre dame. those are the universities. i looked at the web site there and found that they had 53 of

them had mission statements and only five of them even mentioned athletics. so there was an ultimate reality that when you see what university say they are about, they are about research teaching and service. they are indeed about those things that these universities also i have come to conclude that a major core function of these universities is also athletics. and i will get into this if we have time, but really when i started off with the project, i was suspecting to things. number one is that these were going to be full of misappropriation of time and compromised values and hypocrisy. there is bad, that, but there is also an unheralded benefit or two that i will talk about at the end that i think hasn't been

emphasized. so in my view, big-time college sports is much bigger than simply the commercial enterprise. it in fact has cultural importance that i think needs to be thought about when you look at the whole package. well, how did i view this project? so what i wanted to do was, because i was somebody enmeshed in this thing that we just take for granted, it's all around us, how can you do an objective measure something like that? so what i tried to do was pretend i was a visitor from some other country and in fact just imagine if you were going to take a european visitor who had never been in this country, but was well-educated, you would take that visitor around the campuses, round the carolina campus, duke and show them

everything. when you get to the stadium, now of course the stadium is a little bit removed so maybe you we get to reynolds auditorium. whenever you get to this state let's say we come upon kenan stadium and the visitor turns to you and says, what is this doing here? that is the book. the book tries to answer the question, what is this doing here? it turns out that back in 1957, when a 31-year-old queen elizabeth was visiting the united states right in the wake of sputnik and central high school and little rock, she was visiting and she visited the washington area, visited the giant department store is but one of the things she did was to go to bird stadium. when they north carolina cargoes were playing north hennepin

sonny jim payton who would been the coach at maryland for many years it just gone to north carolina and they were playing what had to be described as a grudge match and let's see if i can make this thing work. no, it's not going to do it. any help would be greatly appreciated. let's see about this. i need my technical people here. left and right. thank you. so this is going to the right. so this is governor luther hodges. he is greeting her majesty and the fans. just imagine what is going through her mind. so, this is the picture i wanted to show. let me start at another university. this is the university of texas in austin and this is a picture of the nanoscience center.

this building represents one of the great things american universities do. it is a world-class research. dallasites of course is the science of very little things that the applications are tremendous. they are in batteries. they are in solar panels. and a lot of medical applications. this is going on at the university of texas, austin that a ten-minute walk away is another world indeed. and that is the texas memorial stadium. and coexisting in this great university are these two worlds. in this world, the players are taken to practice every day, to practice in a chartered bus. when they dress out, they are in a locker room that has a 20-foot long light at the top of the ceiling in the shape of a longhorn. and there are tvs and everything

else. these things coexist and what we think of as american universities. now, american universities are some of the best in the world. here is a list of the top 20 universities plus taxes. the top 20 universities in the entire world. look at how many are from the united states. 17 out of the top 20 universities in the world by this reckoning and this fairly widely accepted our american universities. but some of those great universities also have big-time sports. so here we have, we can see that in that list of top american universities are some that do big-time sports, and some of them do it very, very effectively. so, the question i really wanted to start with this book is, how

important is big-time sports to the operation of an american university? if you ask the university or by the way, if you ask scholars of higher education like me, you will find -- they will say it's not that important. big-time sports is not worth putting in in the mission statement and if you are a scholar like me you can find entire issues of the journal of higher education. they talk about it mission. they talk about research. they talk about interdisciplinary cooperation. they talk about new technologies of learning. they talk about it missions and financial aid. there would be almost no mention of big-time sports and just like it did not exist. yet, when i went through these mission statements as i said i didn't find that many that mentioned athletics. you might say well wait a minute, these mission statements are very very short. they just say we do research and

service in some of them in fact do that so it's not there to say that they did not mentioned athletics. i went through with a fine toothed comb and said how many of them mention their education school, their law school? i wanted to say what percentage of the ones that have a law school actually mention the law school? what percent who had nursing actually mentioned it? well it turns out that here's a here is a graph that demonstrates that at the very bottom graph is the mentioning of athletics. only about 10% of the mission statements that have universities that have big-time sports and only 10% of them, about five, mention it at all. you are more likely to mention your school of social work, your architectural school. you are more likely to mention your extension service then you

are athletics, which would suggest that these universities clearly don't think it's very important. so the question that, is it really that important? well, i am a data person and so one thing i did was to, let's just find some data. one of the things they did for this book is to uncover sort of weird sources of data and if you are data person, you like the charts in "usa today," you might like this book. there is a little brochure where you pick one and get a bargain, but so this is an inherently interesting subject that only an economist could really make it dull. i've done my very best but i don't think i have succeeded, and so there are going to be graphs and tables in here but i think that to some of the more wonkish of the sports fans, you will like this.

so, one way an economist of course and if it's got dollars, we economist think it's a pretty good measure. how much money are these operations bring in an? well, in the last year, these data were collected from "usa today" through open records logs. it turns out that some of the universities have athletic operations that really do bring in a lot of revenue. at texas, they are bringing in $144 million in revenue and they don't play that many sports but the sports that they do play a really big. you might have read that texas has gone beyond the big 10 and they are basically having their own networks that they are joining the ranks of notre dame in terms of being a franchise so valuable that tv wants to sign them up. there are also a couple of local teams. we have duke and north carolina

bringing in just shy of $70 million a year and north carolina state, 50 and wake forest, 42. so by that measure, is pretty important. a lot of people say, wait a minute. this isn't a very big part of the total budget. at duke we have a state hospital and in terms of dollars, really athletics is not that big. so let's look at another measure. think of this as a serious national newspaper that takes itself so seriously that it prints all the news. if there is an article about a university, about the research funding or if there has been a protest, there has been a fire on the campus, if there has been any kind of controversy this newspaper will pick it up. so the question is, how much coverage this sports get and the

very serious "new york times"? wewe are not talking about "spos illustrated." we are talking about "the new york times." an avid researcher says go through the year 2007 and look for every article in "the new york times" that appears in 2007 for any one of the 58 universities with sports and just for comparison i said let's make another list of good universities that don't have big-time sports. so i took the 16 or so universities that are rated high by u.s. news but don't have big-time sports and compared them. what percent of the articles in "the new york times" were about sports? in these big-time sports universities? 87%. so, the white area on the left out of 601 articles that we found, 523 were about sports. so, you can't tell me that sports is not a big deal when

the nature of the publicity that these universities, and this includes stanford, this includes north carolina, it includes duke university. 87% were about sports. of those non-sports, it was still pretty substantial, 38% so there is still coverage there of of the wesleyan football team, but not as much. may be a more modern way to measure it, how many googled it? let's say you went on the web and you wanted to google the president of duke university. i could quiz you and ask you who it is but i won't do that. then there is also a prominent basketball coach there and so what i did was for each of these 58 universities i put name of the coach and then i said and quote duke university or different combinations and we

want to try to get the most hits. so the 58 universities with big-time sports, how many times do you think, and this is football, we are just talking football. how many times do you think the president beat the football coach? two. so two times the president al googled the football coach in these 58 universities. on average the black bars the ratio of google hits from football coaches to presidents and in in the big-time sports it's about 7-1. basketball is much lower. we don't understand that here in the triangle but it's only 4-1. so i'm still trying to make the point that this is a bigger deal than is implied by the fact that it gets ignored all the time. think about being a high school player who is very good at say basketball. you come from let's say ames,

iowa. you are very good and you get recruited by some team and in fact it turns out that two of the teams that recruit you are two of of the best-known basketball programs around. one of them has a famous coach in the private university in north carolina and when this young man comes to that school the coach takes them over to his house and they have lobster and state dinner. they treat him better than most recruits to the university and then he gets recruited to other places and other universities. this young man makes a decision but he doesn't make any kind of decision. he is a national audience because he comes to the high school gym and they have a press conference. he is announcing over national tv, the 17-year-old high school student says, i'm going to go to north carolina and the north carolina team stops the practice

and they have cameras over there. coach williams welcomes him to the rest of the team and gathers around. and so it is a big deal. here's one more measure and this one has dollar signs. there has been some talk about the high pay for coaches. north carolina state by the way, 331,000 is the annual pay for an assistant football coach. and the head football coach makes on the order of 1.9 or so million. altogether it is $3 million. there has been a lot of talk about this but everything has been going up. ceo salaries have been going up. professor salary so i said let's look at three kinds of employees at universities, full professors, president or chancellor's and head football coaches. i was able to get data for 44 public universities and to make

it an apple to apple comparison i had to make sure that they all included health benefits in retirement and if it didn't i put in an appropriate correction for that and then i corrected for up -- inflation. over that period, the pay, this is the total compensation for a full professor went up 32%. it beat inflation, 32% but chancellor's and presidents and remember this is it period in which the ceo salaries have been going up, they went up 90% so our president did better than the full professors. the football coaches, 650%. [laughter] so in 1986, the presidents of these universities were making more than football coaches no longer. so something is going on out there. we can also look at measures of

marketing and i think i will skip the next slide. it shows that marketing surveys will show a high percentage of adults consider themselves fans of teams, either going to games or watching them on television so it turns out commercially this is a very hot property. is one of the things i wanted to look at was didn't really affect people's work? now i heard a story from a friend who is a lawyer here in the city and this friend reported that in this firm, and this is a big firm, a few years back when the tournament happened, the first day of the tournament, the firm had to turn off the streaming element of the computers because all the systems had slowed down because everybody was watching the game on the computer. well my guess is that this is not something that is only

applied to law firms. my guess is it's across the country in a lot of different firms. there've been estimates, we are wasting so much time and when people get around those water fountains to fill in their brackets, it's just wasting all this time. i don't think it's actually a decline in productivity but it certainly does affect people's work. but i wanted to mention, it never seen a measure. i got the bright idea to look at eight digital repository. is called j. store so if you are in the campus and you wanted old copy of the american economic review you don't go to the library, you go to j store and you can download it but you can see an article. and then i got admission to our library from 78 different research universities. for them to give me permission to see their j store statistics, then i got data for every day,

january, february, march and april for three years, 2006, 2007 and 2008. sorry, february, march and april so these are the months that went over most of the basketball teams. what i found was very interesting. one of the calculations is to see what the relative use of the j store every day. i looked at monday, tuesday, wednesday because that is the heaviest use and it was the same pattern for 2006 as it was in 2007 and 2008. it went went up the whole semester so people are using more, looking up more and more articles except for one week and it's the week following selection sunday. so this is the pattern, is that work is going up except after

selection sunday and that monday, tuesday wednesday is when people are standing around filling out brackets. at universities they are doing the same thing. so don't tell me this is not a big deal. we have been in all number of ways it's a big deal. what is going on? one of the things that is happening is that in many ways big-time sports is exactly what it was in 1920. at the same. people are making the same complaints. their rules and football are just about the same in the rules and basketball are more or less the same. the rival race, if you want to talk about a rivalry like michigan or you take wisconsin badgers, these trademarks are older than most that we buy today. don't tell me that hasn't been around for a long time. in fact looking at minnesota versus wisconsin, they played

football for all but one of the last 120 years, all but one. their football library outlasted two world wars and the great depression. they started their rivalry when benjamin harrison was presidents of these things last a long time. one thing that really changed is the technology of television. one of the things i did was to say, let's go and look at the chicago media market and go to the first weekend in october. how many football games do we see in chicago in 1983? two. and what has happened since then? here is a list of, you can't read them but just look at them. what you see is that a 1983 you had, you can choose between two

football games. in 1990, 10 so why is it going to 10? because cable tv is beginning and then cable tv is taking over like crazy. so the number of games available are amazing. one last measure is a big deal and it's growing. there's an organization called the ncaa that was formed around 1906. why? because teddy roosevelt had enough, the main story is there were too many injuries so he called the president and said you have got to do something about it. one theory is that yale was beating harvard too much in harvard kept winning. and any case the ncaa runs its own basketball tournament and the basketball tournament has been making more and more money because of tv. and this is the graph. the red part of those bars shows this is inflation adjusted

revenues and from 1989 to 2009, the revenues that were gotten from the tournament this was the major -- went from 123 million to 641 million. that is a real growth rate of 8.25%. every year, 8.25%. how many investments have a .25 are sent rate? let me give you some highlights and then i want to maybe make you, i don't know upset maybe her question a couple of things here. let me just give over that. this is a map that shows per capita foot tall attendance and it turns out that the big areas for foot tall are the southeast

in the midwest. these also tend to be the lower midwest. these tend to be the places where there are not professional teams, either football or baseball or anything. part of that was that we clung to a tradition called jim crow segregation and a lot of those teams up there were integrated. a quick story. my team, georgia tech. in 1956 georgia tech one a lot of games and we were invited to the sugar bowl in new orleans. they were happy about that of course but it turns out that the other team that was going to play them, pittsburgh, had a black player so the governor of georgia went to the regions and said this is a day of armageddon. we must stop this.

you have got to resend this so we cannot go down and play against the integrated team. what did the all-white student body of georgia tech do? the march on march on the governor's mansion, burned him in effigy because they wanted to play the game. so one of sort of the sub teams -- subthemes of this book is in the south there were two great institutions that were much beloved, segregation and football. and to a large extent football had the force which is appropriate today, of backing up much of what the civil rights movement did because people wanted to have football and they wanted to have successful team so therefore 1969 might have been the last all-white national championship football team, texas. soon thereafter, bear bryant, ahold southern conference said

if we are going to stay good we have to integrate so whatever their motive, one of the leaders in integration was college, football and basketball. let me see. i'm going to say one thing. it's going to have north carolina state in it. one of the things i found in terms of looking at the intricacies of big-time sports, college sports is that everybody are equal but some are more equal than others and within each of the five big conferences there are the superpowers and an football that would be florida state, virginia tech and on occasion north carolina state, never duke, and in basketball player are also some that are traditionally good but this is chu in the fcc. in the fcc u.s. vanderbilt where the championship is just a rumor to them and the big 10

northwestern. they are not even close. i had the occasion to talk to the president of northwest not long ago and said is there ever a time you can get out of 10 and join up with your right-minded universities? no, because they get all this revenue-sharing. so you think that sweden has socialism. these conferences are just as socialist as sweden. all the money goes in and gets divided up so you have over here and just look at the first two columns, you have the major powers and those are the teams that make the most money in each of these leagues and in the major, they are the ones that make the least. example ohio state in texas are at the top of their conferences. the bottom was mrs. the state and enzi stayed state an cease database in that year. what you see is football attendance is smaller. they make less on revenue. they pay their coach les and

their major source of revenue is different. one of the surprising things i found out is that the major source of revenue that beats out sales of little bit his charitable contributions. why do people feel so jirga plea disposed towards duke in texas and ohio state in north carolina? because to get the good seats it takes a contribution. so that a sort of one of the sleeper findings of the book is that charitable contributions are the key. when you go to the lesser conferences the world is very different there. one of the major sources of revenue is the subsidy so it's student fees and subsidies straight out of the coffers of the universities, and so when you get down to the toledo's and the florida internationals you

are really depending on students and the state to come up with the subsidy. let me see. let me give you one finding about students. one of the things i wanted to find out, did this thing really make a difference for the students at these universities and i should warn you right now i never found a causal effect. what you can see is that the students that go to the universities with big-time sports, they look different than the students that go to other universities but you can't say that is the cause. it is not caused by big-time sports. is what we call the election effect. they chose that university but one of the existing things i found was the comparison among eight private selective universities. for them have big-time sports and four of them don't. and i wanted to ask the question, how do they spend their time? it turns out that the universities of big-time sports they don't spend as much time in

the classroom. they don't spend as much time studying and they spend more time in organizations. and here is a graph that shows this. the black arts of the big-time sports universities so they are spending a little bit less time in class, a little bit less time studying and more time in organizations. otherwise there's not a lot of difference. another difference is that they are more likely to engage in been shrinking. again this is not necessarily caused by the sports but it does mean that the students at those universities are somewhat different. in the book i also did things like i wanted to find out who was sitting in the chancellor's box on saturdays at football games. i found out i could ask very -- various people.

that is open records laws and both north carolina and north carolina state provided the list of who was at the chancellor's box and i studied them. we googled everybody. we wanted to see what was going on and at the end of the day you find out kind of what you expected. this is the development officers dream group. these are the people you want your chancellor to have three hours to talk to, so what they are using these gatherings for was to get support, both financial and other so there was no smoking gun. i did find clarence thomas was a guest at the university of georgia and rick perry of course was at the texas a&m game but i enlarge their was not anything too surprising. let me say, i have got myself three minutes and 25 seconds left so let me see what i can

do. if you want to ask a question i know there has been a lot of controversy. let me go to the article, there. caleb branch is the unc graduate and wrote an article in the atlantic basically saying the players ought to be paid. there has been a lot of controversy. if you look in "the new york times" this sunday magazine two sundays ago basically said we ought to pay them and this is how to do it. what i came up with is sort of to findings. number one, you can't look at the way players are treated and say that is fair. so there is a great deal of unfairness. if you look at the additional revenue that the university gets from having a draft quality football player, it's half a million dollars a year and a draft quality basketball player is $1.6 million a year every

year that young man is in school. how much are they getting paid? less than that. so on the one side it's not fair but what is the solution? it's hard to know what the solution would be because paying players might really change things and i would say in this foundation, cartel would not be a good word. it turns out that their records as the ncaa is a cartel. others have written the ncaa is the best little monopoly in the united states. the other bad word is monotony. what it has done according to these economists is to conspire to beat the pay of these players down. let me quickly give you one more thing to worry about and then talk about one of these unheralded benefits and then i will stop. here is one of the things we might want to worry about.

here is a little quiz. this is an alabama player. he was a fullback. mark ingram and then on the right is a denver bronco quarterback who was then playing for the university of florida. and you will notice that under his eyes he has got psalms 23:1 which is a well-known phrase. now, the quiz here is the man on the top left has on his shirt a symbol that he is required to wear. he cannot cover it up. that is the nike swish. on the bottom right is something written on that man's face which today is outlawed by the ncaa. so we have a serious situation because after he left, that is now a legal. so we have a situation in which players are required to wear a

corporate trademark but are forbidden to write psalms 23:1 so that is the one thing. and the other thing is,, there was a survey done. the to unheralded benefits come i will end up on a positive no. know. the to unheralded benefits. in lexington takagi -- kentucky there was a survey of adults and they asked questions about kentucky basketball which is a big thing there and they gave them several statements. which one of these do you agree with most? i am tired of hearing about kentucky basketball. i don't care what happens. i do watch the games but it's not a big deal and they fourth one was, i live and die by the wildcats. when they win i'm happy and when they lose i am sad. now you can imagine a survey like that done in this area.

what percent? 33% of adults said i live and die by the wildcats. we know enough people in the area who say that is what i would write. it could be higher or it could be lower so one of the benefits is that people care and they are getting enjoyment. i've got a couple of pictures of people enjoying. there we go. people get a lot of fun out of it so there is one aspect and sometimes they lose. and is in a way as is my favorite picture because it shows big-time college sports is not just college students. it's about the community. and it's not necessarily about people who actually went to the university. number one the unheralded benefit is it brings happiness and what is wrong with that? what is wrong with having another reason to feel happy about the place you live? the other unheralded benefit i would point to is that there is

a civic version and shelling inter-racial groups of people working together for a common theme. and we have seen in this state, there is my team but maybe better known as dean smith who started a player named charles scott. by all accounts, dean smith treated him just like everybody else. and so many of us in this room are old enough to remember segregated water fountains. and when they watch college sports almost at every game we were treated to situations in which coaches are making decisions based on skill, not race and so that has got to be a good example. and we see people that don't look like each other cooperating, giving each other

fist bumps and high fives. so it's a mixed bag and let me just stop there. [applause] i will take questions, i guess. yes, sir. >> the qualitative output of a college education of athlete purses, we go out and recruit people and they come to our universities but for the ones who don't go on to professional careers, do you have any measurements of how they fare? >> for the book i really didn't look at the players but let me just quickly say the things they didn't look at. it didn't look at any sports except football and basketball and i didn't look at any levels except the top so i didn't look at the ivy league and i also didn't really pay much attention to the players except to the extent to say this is what they

are worth and this is what they are being paid. but i think basically what you can see is that the players that are not of draft eligibility, they are putting in tremendous amounts of time and often sadly enough, they can graduate or not graduate and really not get the promise of education. this is one of those examples in which i'm afraid to say that my industry has not been sincere, that there is hypocrisy enough to go around in the university someone of the things i do in the book is to say, let's be candid about what we are doing. in what we are doing may be a good thing but let's talk about it because if universities are good for anything they are good about talking and they say they're interested in the truth so let's be more forthcoming and say if we have got something big your let's talk about it. i think i would be something that really deserves a serious

discussion. yes, sir. >> in talking about the impact on academia, commercial enterprise interjected itself into an institution and thereby changing its competitive advantage, i.e. when you have a conference giving their own sports channel and now the other schools give them a recruiting advantage. >> lets see, number one commercial's. certainly i would say big-time sports is probably the most unmitigated commercial thing that universities do but it's not the only commercial thing and if we want to rid ourselves of commercial things than we would be ridding ourselves of a lot of things. we can't think commercial enterprises a bad thing because this is how we are surviving. for goodness sakes we have medical centers so there is commercial. now, i guess one of the things

about the term everybody is equal, texas is the primary example of that. and they have become, now they are exploiting that business in such a way that it's going to be, it is hard. it's going to stay hard to have something that doesn't resemble major league vase ball because they have the biggest market and all that. if you like the nfl parity, then you don't like this kind of thing and so one of the ideas is that, one of the possible futures as the division i a which is now called for all -- will get cut up and there will be maybe 50 and there will be

maybe even a playoff among those. but one of the other things that your question raises is this prospect of an arms race. one of the things that universities are worried about is that the chancellor looks at say the compensation. how are we going to sustain ourselves and you can't look at this and say it's going to keep going at the same rate. something it's got to happen. that is one of the four or five things that is really motivating a lot of the discussion now and texas is just an example. the big 12, whatever number it has today it's all because they have not treated their people equally and because they have had two or three institutions that can just roll over everybody else. >> what measure i thought you might have is what percentage of the revenue?

>> not very big. it could be in the range of 4%. you think duke, duke has a monstrous, i mean really the whole university is just a medical center with this extra thing attached to it. and so, in terms of the revenue, it's not that big a here is another thing. one of the things you might ask yourself, if you were at duke and you want to schedule a committee meeting or a one-day conference, you better look at the schedule of sports first because nobody's going to come otherwise. so in a way that is to me the measure. and one other thing, i did a back of the envelope calculations based on a major public university that is in the state. just based on the number of hours spent, either faculty working, students working, staff working or spectators spectating and it turns out that the

big-time sports enterprise measure that weighs about twice as big as everything else. >> i think a lot of people hear the term student athlete and they usually think oxymoron and i wonder if you made in the analysis over time of how much the big-time athletic, athletes in football or basketball have become less students and more athletes over the last 20 or 30 years? >> one of the things i did was, i never use the term student athletes except putting it in quotes because it's a made-up term by the ncaa and there are good reasons why they want to put their ivy league team along with the texas football because they are all treated the same but they are not the same. so the question is, actually i got too carried away with that

but the point is, they are spending more and more hours traveling and actually traveling has not gone up that much but all the training that goes on. in addition to the mandated training, people can do extra training but that is not on the books. as somebody told me who works in compliance, that is all optional time but so is playing time. so if they want to play, they have got to do that so it's really quite a rigorous adventure for them. yes, sir. >> some 60 years ago the ivy league was big-time in football and basketball, and shortly after that, the presidents of universities got together and decided to eliminate scholarships. i think, in order to be in the

mission statement of the universities, have you looked at anything about doing something like that? >> i did ask that question through president of northwestern but even duke, we just get beaten around and put all so i love getting out there. i love being outdoors on a saturday so every once in a while we win and hope springs eternal. with the ivy league did this to say this is important to us, we are going to arch to a different drummer because they were big-time. so vernon l. harrington -- there is another story about that but the quick thing of vernon that you might remember is a literary critic. he ended up at washington but he went from harvard to oklahoma and while he was at oklahoma he coach the football team there

and he went down in the annals of oklahoma as he was the man who brought harvard style football to oklahoma. [laughter] so they were big-time. >> benefits you mentioned a of football were civic virtues, civic modeling and race relations and providing it a quorum in the community. is there any reason to think that those could not be achieved if we were to abolish college sports tomorrow say through professional sports or some other form of amateur sports? >> i thought you were going in a different direction but both directions are helpful. one option would he to say okay we are going to give up the pretense. we will lease the name tar heels to any corporation that wants to come in here. we will set some stipulations and they can pay us rent and the

people playing in the light blue will be known just like minor league player so that would be one way to do it and that might generate and then certainly in europe that is something that communities love their team and it's not a university at all. that is a possibility. i thought the direction you were going in was to say is there any reason to think we couldn't have many of the same benefits if these were not such professional operations? that is if you cut them back in some way and so imagine the army-navy game. that gets a lot of attention and what if the duke carolina teams just had different rules but they have the same rules for eligibility. would there be the same amount of interest? some might say that purists can already see that this is an mba in college basketball beat they will forgive them because

they're amateurs but if you start paying them it will be just like minor league so i think it's not obvious how it would go. but a lot of the benefits i'm talking about might be casher bowl otherwise but you might also say that is one of the thing that makes it and i'm not here to say that race relations in college sports are perfect but i think that on net, the good is better than the back. that is the way i would judge it. >> if you established a salary for players? >> that would have taken too much for foresight and too much bravery. i really at the beginning, when i started this thing out i said i don't even want to get close to the ncaa rules because there is so much diminution. it's easier to learn the

internal revenue code than to learn the ncaa rules. i didn't want to get into it because i thought it would be changing and of course they did but i have kept up with the discussion now and i think that this idea of paying is not the crazy side. you have to put on salary caps and you would have to do with the major league baseball doesn't do and that is to have something that keeps -- but as soon as you started paying players, you would see the pressure on coaches salaries go down because there just wouldn't be as much money. so they are getting a lot mainly because there is so much money there and this winner-take-all idea, that is the thing that keeps the arms race going. it's not that i have to be good. i just had to be better than you so that means it's like the civil cases in the law. the client asks the lawyer how much is this going to cost me in the lawyer says, how much do you have? because there is not anything,

there is always some way you can spend more money and make it worthwhile. that is the reason there is an arms race. yes, sir. in the back for just be a quick question. when you are looking at the data and you are looking at basketball you were just looking at basketball. how many of those 58 programs are you looking at are rationally making money and the second question is within the mission statements themselves how many take into account the service side of the institution at all anyway? student engagement and that type of thing? >> some of them mention student engagement and that is certainly a way to justify. one of the reasons that kind of sports is justified is it creates a -- on the campus and what was the first question? >> how many programs are

actually made the money? >> out of 120 the ncaa assistant say that about 20 out of 120 are making money, but to make money in this area, that means your basketball and football programs that really are profitable almost everywhere are being asked to pay for everybody else and there is no reason why you should ask your tennis team to be self-supporting anymore than you would want the english department to be so to some extent it's a little bit of a red herring. and i think i'm just about out of time. [applause] thank you very much.