>> right, right. so i think the two are connected in a way that's not -- i know i'm describing it very abstractly but not a witness or abstractly.

having women in the military does impact perceptions of others, generally. >> the same way that the feminism and gay rights movement have been closely aligned. >> right. >> more in the back. comments? questions? phrase? [laughter] original stories? >> sure. >> is twofold and, west point, 80. i actually work with outserve but i've encountered, i don't know if you guys have, at a lot of sort of skepticism that things are going as well as they have been reported. can you guys give some examples of the kinds of stories you are hearing from the field? i mean, any examples from the network, just to help people understand, you know, where

people came out and were surprised to the reaction? anything like that? >> i think the wider story and the most common one we're hearing is taking a significant others event. one of our members was -- ease with the media today, and the last few days, and i mean, i'm taking my boyfriend to my christmas party tomorrow. and i think that, you know, that's kind of the measure i've been using to see how successful it's been, and you know, i think a wide majority are doing that. so i think that it really has just been that smooth but i really think it has. >> seems like every story is a repeat of the next one. it comes down to everybody in the unit and some are surprised, but for the most part everyone, that's great, you're still a

great airman or a great soldier. and it's just, haven't heard a lot of negative experiences, not that those don't exist or those won't exist in the future, but on the whole it's just been, so far it's been very smooth. and the reason why it's very skeptical is that is, leading up to repeal a lot of the arguments against don't ask, don't tell review was it will disrupt unit cohesion's. so i think things are going so well, it doesn't bode well for the other side because what we've seen is, in my personal experience with those who came out, those have, is that unit cohesion gets better. trust is very important in a relationship with each other. it's only improving. >> your boyfriend is a civilian? >> no, his air force as well. [inaudible] >> yes, he has. he was a writer for "time"

magazine, he was -- yeah, that was definitely interesting, you know, coming out together september 20 of having, you know, being on the same base and having the commanders be like oh, two people in the media doing this. it's positive. people that work with want to, you know, want me to bring in and meet him. i've had no issue at all, at all. >> did you meet by -- [inaudible] >> we started a club. the club is kind of small, but it is a cool club. i think my shadow looked a lot better on them even his shadow. >> how did you meet? >> we met randomly just as

friends. he moved to the base, and if you mutual friend introduced us, it just like two weeks later after i started dating him he started working with special tm, and they with one who helped him start writing for time. [inaudible] >> when you change deployments, what is the acronym you use? >> it's definite, and it is way in our minds. i am up to move this next summer, you know. marriage is happen a lot quicker in the military simply for that reason. a lot of people will get married, you know, be able to stay together. it's interesting. i mean, i keep pushing it aside. what do you do, it's one of the things i think about a lot, don't want to keep in a career that i can raise a family in and i've got to keep moving every three years?

on, that's going to weigh on a lot of people's minds. and i don't know the answer to the question myself. i want to raise that, everything in right now that's not possible. you know, it is a very scary reality coming up next summer. >> if you don't mind my asking because i asked you a question, how has gay veterans, gave former service members, people, like you, who graduate from the service academy, been in the armed forces and arcade, lesbian, reacted to these changes? has there been a lot of discussion within the veteran community? >> to repeal? >> sure if there's been a tremendous amount of celebration. there is a sense of, i think there is a real sense, and we sought out the outserve summit. there was a summit conference in october of several hundred folks, both active and veterans as well, and there was a real passing of the torch.

because of don't ask, don't tell week, veterans, have had to be the katie's point, we had to be the phase and the voice of our lgbt service members. we have done that. for years we've done the best we could, and now effective separate 20th our active duty folks, jonathan, josh, so many others can now do that. so, you know, i think there's a tremendous sense of, that we finally, you know, a little bit, i can't believe we accomplished it. we finally accomplish getting don't ask, don't tell repealed, and even though many of us are still going to be in the fight to get, to get benefits for partners and family, benefit equally, many of us will still be in the fight for trans equality. but now we share that fight with

our active duty folks because they don't have to be hidden any longer. huge. after west point were you an active duty officer and support the dadt era, rights because yes, 100 years ago. i actually cried we did with the first west point class to include women. so while experience big changes in that, and i was always laugh, this is going to be huge, it's going to uproot, there's going to be this big uproar in the military. you don't know anything. this is nothing. >> 1980? >> that's correct. and i served as an army officer in germany. i was a company commander. i went through a witch hunt. i survived it because they couldn't find evidence on me but it was incredibly dramatic. you are part of this unit would tremendous camaraderie, like josh talks about. many of us in the to, that's what we treasure is this bond

with the people that we serve with, and then suddenly you are the alien. and during an investigation for three months i was just, i may, no one would sit with me at the mess hall at lunch. it was just brew. even the i survived and went on to company commander i left after five and a half years because i never wanted to go through that again. i never wanted to be put in a position where i had to choose between my integrity and my job. and so yeah, i left years ago. and i got back in the fight in 2009 when we started nights out, and that's been tremendous. >> back in 1993, i promise this is my last question, i know you are not until. >> what's funny, these guys know me. you have given me the mic, you may never get it back to. >> back in 1983, it was presented as a compromise short of full integration, right? at the time you're out of the service by that point, we

optimistic it was a positive change in venue so that it wasn't all that was cracked up to be? >> yeah, that's an interesting question because i is gotten out in 86, and then in 93, after president clinton was inaugurated, and that week, you know, kept his promise signing an executive order and congress, congress had not so fast, led by sam nunn. i got very involved with at the time called camp for military service, and did a number of speaking engagements to tell people here's what it's like living under this ban. when don't ask, don't tell was past it was pitched as a compromise. it was a compromise to keep congress from passing a law banning gays and lesbians from serving altogether. but we knew -- we didn't have bad it would be, but there was a general feeling that they will find ways around him and ask and

they will continue to kick people out, and that actually was borne out. so we knew we lost. >> does that answer your questions because it does, thank you. >> anymore? [laughter] >> any concluding thoughts? anything i didn't ask? >> sure, one more. >> i just had a question about the number of gay and lesbian people in the military. do you think, like what is your supposition? >> recent estimates take it at about 66,000, approximate 2.2%. >> out of how many servicepeople? >> it is 2.2%, so whatever the map is.

>> you're counting national guard, reserves? >> and that's a rather modest estimate. it is based on the number of people that identify be back in just under two years we found already close to 5000. >> there is probably many more. >> 66,000 is the william penn estimate based on any publications, and the are a lot of people that argue that is underestimated. so -- you got me started to the total force is just under one money. they are many believe it is maybe twice that. but the way -- any kind of database estimate it and that is at ucla that does a lot of important demographic work and research relating to the lgbt commuting. i wanted to just take a moment to thank our panel, your stories have been incredible to listen to, and i really appreciate and admire your honesty and your

integrity and your work on this issue, and your time tonight with the audience. so thank you all. and thanks to the audience as well. can we get a round of applause? [applause] >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. but the author or book titled in the search for on the upper left side of the page and click search. it can also share in the museum booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. .tv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. next, jeffrey clements argues that the supreme court citizens united decision was flawed and outlines applying to reverse it. this is about 40 minutes.

>> thank you again for your leadership. i'm the guy who gets to warm up the crowd for jeff. [laughter] i am very, very happy today because i am really proud to be here with all of you because we have a real battle on our hands. saturday was the two-year anniversary of the ghastly citizens united decision, and i hope that it actually was the point at which the court went too far and will provoke a public reaction that we can take advantage of to try to restrict the extraordinary explosion of corporate power that the court has been stepping with smaller steps towards in so many decisions along the way, but the citizens united decision was really extraordinary. it's basically encapsulated by candidate romney's sort of

unwitting comment, corporations are people. no, corporations are not people. they don't have souls. they don't have conscious as. you are a mechanism by which people organize their behavior, but they are not people. and the way in which the court has given them power creates immense imbalance between -- because they can use their corporate treasure but if you corporations like exxon mobil that are making billions of dollars of quarter, it's pretty easy to drown out regular folks in the media market that we have. so, and the other thing that it does is it takes everybody's money and the corporation puts that at the control of the ceo, which is a person, often from the 1%, so if you believe in that distinction you're getting an enormous amount of power to that minority to perpetuate itself. sow