promoting a birdie on campus and decided to have another meeting and another one and eventually they formed as an organization. >> how many campuses are you on? >> over 700 student groups in our network, all over the world. >> this is your second compilation? >> this is our second compilation we put together in partnership with the atlas society. >> the and rand society? >> the atlas society. >> meghan roberts is communications director and one of the copy editors of the morality of capitalism, students for liberty.org is the web site. >> josh seefried is the co-founder of editor of our times serving in the military under don't ask don't tell. up next on booktv discusses our time with three of the book's contributors that the public

library. this is an hour and ten minutes. >> good evening. thank you for braving the weather tonight. joining us at the new york public library. this was started two years ago and a combination of programming collection and support fund raising to highlight the library's historical collection. the public library is one of the -- and our initiative is to bring those collections to a mass audience for new yorkers and online around the world. we are really pleased to have you with us this evening. i will introduce you one by one. josh seefried is an active duty

air force officer. co-founder and co-director, and he was an invited guest at the presidential signing to repeal don't ask don't tell. jonathan mill is a staff sergeant electronic technician for the u.s. air force stationed in washington d.c.. he is first executive editor, kathryn miller was a cadet at west point until she resigned in protest. she worked as one about serve's main focus persons during the fight to repeal don't ask don't tell and escorting lady gaga at the music video awards and is serving on the board of directors. danny fernandez was a land corporal in the u.s. marine corps, separation for the

marines. he has worked for the repeal of don't ask don't tell. sewell chan is deputy editor of the new york times. previously washington economic correspondent and founding bureau chief of the city room news block and metropolitan transportation and city hall. thank you for being with us. thanks. >> thank you for coming tonight. possible to have a great discussion. i have better discussions with a small crowd that a large one. and others can watch this. when i was asked to serve on this panel, i read through this book in one sitting. the stories of courage in this book will move you and what impressed me was how diverse the stories were. if you think there was one

experience of being glbt in the military, they became commissioned officer to people who enlisted or server decades or still positive and blackmailed who came out to be discharg discharged. incredible resource. i hope you will read. we will have a few minutes personal stories and from the panel members and i will ask a bunch of questions and when we are ready we will move to audience q&a and have a rich discussion. who is going to start? start at the far end? >> i am josh seefried. i am stationed at mcguire air force base two hours south of here.

the cost analyst -- my experience is interesting. i graduated from the air force academy in 2009 and after my training was blackmailed by my instructor, changing my test scores, harassing me constantly. i turned in my instructor and that instructor turnaround and out of me. i was removed from my job, i was working at the chaplain's office during this time. secretary gates came up with a new party that third-party outings were not allowed anymore and that stopped the process against me personally but in this process i got so frustrated with don't ask don't tell that i decided to turn around and help create out serve, in network where we could do networks together and collectively voice our concerns to the military and the public. i lot of people who contributed are out served members and what we did was using social media we

started to connect gay soldiers around the world. we have 4700 members across the globe connected that have support that are no longer alone and able to meet on a regular basis. the two big reasons i agreed to do this project was it is really important to give the courage and that there are gay people in the military right now. i remember reading a book in the air force academy getting courage from that and i hoped by putting up these stories other people would pick it up and thinking about serving or are serving realize there are so many of us out there that are gay and it is ok and it changed -- when i gave this book to someone at my base he was a person i was against the repeal of the desk don't tell and a day later came back to me and if

this was -- he was crying. i really had no idea that people went through under don't ask don't tell. two goals doing this project was a huge success. >> i am staff sergeant jonathan mills stationed in washington d.c.. my first experience with don't ask don't tell came during my divorce. i grew up in a very conservative religious household. and high school sweetheart made a decision to get married. later on in my air force career, four years into my air force career i came to a process of personal growth, crucial moment,

and it really started -- and came up because in the military we have a tight-knit community. all of our peers are close. personal lives, is one big family. when a situation like this comes up, was very hard to talk to anybody about this because nobody to turn to for emotional support or any other -- the particulars. it was an account of me coming out to my supervisor about my

divorce. my supervisor was very involved in my life and i tried to to be as big as possible but it got at me. that was the moment when i felt like everything i had worked for so far -- and it wasn't. my supervisor was a man of integrity and understood what it meant to serve with courage and integrity. the real meaning of that word in the testimony. that was my first experience with don't ask don't tell. going through that in the meeting, learning about being more involved in the organization, initiatives to reach out in our network a little bit more and came out with the idea for out surf magazine which has been more

successful. we were growing in leadership which is great. we got the word out about the organization and what i feel is most important is the stories in our time with the world. >> i was up west point cadet until 2010 before i came out to my commanding officers and was subsequently discharged from the military. i knew i was gay before entering the academy in 2008 but didn't think that being gay had anything to do -- would have any impact on my ability to surf or my willingness to serve. when i got to west point i realized this wasn't the case. was in the don't ask don't tell

policy. people may ask -- i have to do my best to hide it. i have to come up with some sort of strategy. i had a heterosexual dating history. hy blatantly lied to my comrades as was stated previously. the military is built on bonds and trust. especially at west point -- do not tolerate those who lie or steal. i realized quickly are was not becoming the person i wanted to become. at west point there was an underground and continues to exist of gays and lesbians. i was able to bond with my friends in that way. but no one was ever vocal about this. i had seen cadets before me resign over the don't ask don't

tell policy but they were silent. they didn't give reasons why they left the academy. in their failure to site the reasons for the resignation, to vote in any way. when i decided to resign, wasn't going to serve as long as the don't ask don't tell policy was in place i made a conscious effort to make sure i was going to change something and tell my story so i now work with organizations like out serve, and west point, glbt alumni and our eyes. i leaked my letter of resignation to them and it was on the internet. this is what i wrote about in my

portion. i appeared on the rachel show, authorized interview i had done and two days later i was discharged. maybe a week after that i joined the board of out serve. don't ask don't tell was such a destructive policy the people who were most affected were the people who were prevented -- the don't ask don't tell policy made gay and lesbian service members in visible and voiceless. i knew by joining officer of that being able to put the image to those that were not visible and put a voice to those that were disenfranchised at the time that that was going to have a profound impact. >> my name is danny hernandez and i served as lance corporal in the marine corps in july was

discharged in 2010 because of don't ask don't tell. my experience in the military, for many reasons -- it wasn't at the forefront of my mind. anyone else joins the military to serve my country. that is all patriotic. when i joined there was a lot of skepticism from friends and family not because they knew i was gay but they didn't see me as the one to join the marine corps. i am not much bigger -- i weigh 190 pounds and joining the marine corps was a reach and it was tough but i did it and i was successful and i love being able to say for the first time that i am a marine. i went through training with no

problem. i was a student at texas a&m, but a few months before graduation i had a confrontation with marines at a bar in which my search well became a. they didn't say that i was a. and myself as well as people are was with. that led -- people would find out. the two closest individuals to me that were in my unit, i told them i was gay and they were two of my best friends in the marine corps and i told them i was gay and they supported me and that i have nothing to worry about. they were the guys who were going to stand up for me in case something happened in my unit.

and i hesitated and answer honestly and said i am day. i told, he asked. loopholes in the policy as we all heard. i didn't compromise my integrity. a few months later i was discharged but before that, to stay in the military i graduated from college, the marine corps said they would pay back my student loans so are started doing what every college graduate would do, for a job. i found a job in d.c. and moved here and heard about service members in the network and got a lawyer in hopes that i would stay in the military to retain my job. that was not the case.

being in that position, i should join the movement and do something about it so i joined staff of the legal defense network. i have been there for two years. was a whirlwind of a year but successes, many -- up here and all lowestoft is underlined in the book especially -- continuing to fight. >> thank you for sharing. i have a lot of questions. i hope you have too. first the simple question you probably get asked a lot. those discharged from the service academy from active duty, any chance to reenlist? >> absolutely. anyone who has been discharged and danny can speak better than

me. i am looking to rejoin the military. everything is on a case by basis. [talking over each other] >> it would be an avenue. it would be more efficient to go through can and school. >> i told everyone i am turning to the military. there are a lot of obstacles in the way. i submitted an application for an officer commission but tried to reenlist. especially if they have to retrain you, and move from recruiter to recruiter and i had my third recruiter was incredibly amazing and moved really quickly, and the application, they had to retrain

me. it is difficult and frustrating but i am committed to returning. the possibility is there. every branch is different on a case by case. [talking over each other] >> tell me a little about -- less than two years old and 4700. that is an incredible number. tell me something about do you collect any demographic data? as of sept. when the agency was fully repealed have you seen that? >> for reason why we keep the membership by word of mouth only, in opposed repeal world you need to know someone to enter the membership and that is to respect people's privacy and

guarantee people are still active duty. so we do have demographic data. it breaks down the normal military of 23% of women in the membership. we break down the largest air force, army, largest of our membership, the second is navy and it goes army, marine corps and coast guard. the demographics of the group. one of the things that was so successful is the use of social networking. the ability to connect people and foster the leadership. a bunch of people we have in germany and the network to communicate and how to get

together. we used social networking effectively. how we organize as a team we use facebook to communicate internally in the organization. a lot of our communication is between facebook and that is how we operate and grow the organization. and seaway a political organization can stand up overnight and that is how we continue and 2011 was aggressive but next year is going to be even bigger. >> time to -- what is the editorial condition to contribute entirely digital? >> and reach everybody. >> army and air force exchange service shopping centers in the united states and we have

several units overseas have requested cases where unit commanders or people in leadership will contact us. we have some we are doing through print. the largest is through the electronic version which is available on the web site or available through download through digital version. for target readership, actively serving glbt personnel but equally important is reaching people in the community, people who do support us, they don't see things the same way or have the same experience. and to give them a window into how things are in the military

and how they are going forward with repealing don't ask don't tell. >> one thing that struck me is you are all incredibly young and i imagine most of you -- how much did the ongoing u.s. involvement in iraq and afghanistan -- are you surprised? >> one thing i am curious about is whether the time of the repeal in iraq and afghanistan if any of you want to take that question. >> if we look at a graph when don't ask don't tell was implemented the discharges actually increased of gay and lesbian service members. this is in 1993 and creates an

increase in 2001. the number of discharges that occurred. what is happening is not -- the opportunity to serve. every man and woman, gay or straight need to be serving their country. the arguments about gays can't be in the military because they disrupt unit cohesion. if we have -- we need to gays and lesbians because they are contributing to unit effectiveness. our campaigns in iraq and

afghanistan have shown how much sexual orientation -- >> until now, why did it take until now. for all service members to continue serving? was it mostly political conditions? it is a macro question but i am curious about that. >> i have my own opinions. >> social views have evolve and will continue to evolve. it was later than what it is today last year when don't ask don't tell was voted on and passed through. it was really the people in congress who pushed it through to make it happen. the political landscape was

right but hand in hand with the views of the bipartisan vote that made things happen. >> one of the first things president obama did when he brought his leaders in was we have to change this policy. that senate hearing was happening and one of those chief was don't repeal the policy at the very end the process would have been derailed but president obama should great leadership. everyone needs to change the policy and that really -- showing that leadership to change the policy helped get us past that point because we need those leaders to get in line with the policy and made that happen. >> we are not completely unanimous. you had secretary gates and admiral mullen and chairman of the joint chiefs with strong expressions of support. there was more dissent among the

top ranks and that was subject of some controversy. >> when they were all asked that question can we make this happen and will there be an issue we'll answered no. there won't be an issue. we are leading on the issue so they are passed any problems they have. >> the two of you were executing right now. how has implementation gone in the last three or four months? >> my experience has been very transparent. i haven't seen a lot of changes on policy level, i am not sure if that is because that is what i am in right now or how it is across the floor. based on -- and the u.s.

military. everyone continues to serve the way they always have. >> there has not been much change. we will start to see issues in the summer when the military starts to move. people start to realize the inequality that exists in the military. we have to -- unit commanders will see gay troops who are married and they won't file for joined spouse assignment and they have to watch families get torn apart. these folks are our friends and they have to watch. they get torn apart or issues don't get handled and the military is starting to do their moves. we see these units raise some issues. the issues will come from our

straight fans and this is not fair. fairness and inequality and that is not there right now. we got to ignore what we can. >> it has come up now. the next frontier for those who are speaking of inequality for glbt in the military and political strategy that folks can turn to that. >> that is the focus right now especially for the organization. we recently followed lawsuits and parts of the u.s. code in a certain way does not include same-sex couples. that is a huge priority for us as we move forward. a few months -- make sure all of our service members equal service and equal benefits.

as they move the project active-duty service members or one civilian and one service member. >> are you optimistic about the process? >> i think so. we need to not underestimate the impact the military can have on progressing the issue. i was at the first congressional hearing with implementation in 1996. i was founded by several congressman who brought up -- who asked the question -- [talking over each other] >> just sitting in the crowd. many congress men posed the question how does it affect our service members and the answers -- we can go through the range of military benefits and

emotional support but we are going to find many military organizations are going to have strong statements, going to provide a strong argument. >> we have to realize there are things they can do right now. not because the report which is still long, people didn't realize -- when they researched it and the report directly says we can get this around the desk don't tell right now. we are going on a two from attack. we need to go -- introduced this equality and give us this and have the general revealed. there are plenty of actions that can be taken. >> just for direct action. those actions can be taken.

i think they are political. they want to take baby steps. we won't take baby steps if these issues keep bubbling up like i think they will. in general the media hasn't caught on. in this report the small part is all of these recommend against it. once the media starts picking up on a barrel lot of things they can do. >> contributors coming out for the first time. >> a good friend of mine, and -- that became before it came out. the coolest part is it gave people motivation to come out and inspire others as well.

>> many of these viral videos of service members around the world coming around units and family members in many cases incredibly moving. in your experience what is your reaction? what became public and -- >> it happened in 48 or 72 hours. i asked my mother of the time of my resignation, family member back home. when i came out, when i came out i was really coming of into the world. it was very poor quality. it was rushed. there were audio problems.

i changed uniforms to look presentable. the obstacles were many and significant. i had a tendency -- attendance to look not directly at the web cam but the individual on the screen which did not report well. the producer bigger to andy dallas, said go bling. so i did and i was clearly looking at the black screen. not only my family and myself but also millions of people to an audience i would never fully

grasped. >> west point is not usually the site of such momentous -- >> right. >> not publicly momentous. >> right. the funny thing was i made a deal with my lesbian friends there and said you should separate yourself from me. i don't want any of you to get caught in the crossfire. >> how did the academy react? how did fellow cadets react? >> positive. surprisingly positive. even if there was a negative reaction it was geared toward the man represented myself or the manner in which i connected opposed to what i was advocating on behalf. even if it was explicit --

>> has there been -- in the air force are you seeing that since it took effect? >> an explosion, and -- [talking over each other] >> people came to me and said i am relieved that the current state of policy. what to do in the future, i am actually married or plan on getting married but there hasn't been a massive amount of people in my experience who came out to wait for all of us or for mall -- most of us or our close friends, and of no anyway and some are not in the military because of don't ask don't tell.

we had to create a whole life outside the military in some respects. for a lot of fuss this hasn't brought a lot of change. there might be other examples. >> when we look at surveys of the membership over the last few months we see a trend of a lot of people coming out until the period right before -- we should all try -- 40% in the february time frame came to one person in there yet but the time implementation came around it was 70% or 80%. we have seen a trend of people coming out and one goal with the magazine was the magazine edition was 100 people. let's just rip off that band-aid

and people are just the gays can't do anything more crazy. all the gays came out and nothing happened. we did try to make a big thing on the 20th to desensitize people that there is anything to it. we wouldn't have done what was in the magazine. you would have a story that has one person coming out or another person coming out but we had a huge -- it helped the military. we have a lot of progress. >> it was quite poignant in which you talk about telling your supervisor -- who was really pressing the circumstances and trying -- i remember basically complete he

shocked but ultimately supported -- am i telling it right? that officer? >> absolutely. i have not been in touch outside -- a short message on facebook said i want to congratulate you were a great truth and had a discussion with you. that is the extent of our interaction but at that time certainly he was shocked. i expected him to react differently. i feel like there are a lot of people in the military that try to follow the letter of the law and follow every single order to the tee. i paid him as one of those

people so i was very nervous and explained to him because i was pretty sure how that would end. it didn't go that way and as i mentioned earlier. the what is meant to follow our core values rather than a technicality or the letter of the law. >> he mentioned the underground network at west point. >> an interesting point. the coast guard academy established a day straight alliance that launched within the last week and there are discussions circulating around west point and the air force academy as well. so there is -- similar to our

membership generally there is -- coming out. there is certainly a different sentiment regarding the act of coming out and how people feel. >> one thing curious is whether the coming out process is different tour has been different for officers? josh and katie were in a service academy. you were enlisted but applying to become commissioned officer. from my experience the rank and hierarchy are a very important part of the military culture and military operation. different for glbt and people in that position. >> i think it is. one of the reasons we have

issues is we didn't get the equal opportunity protection. like you said i am an officer and are only have another officer in my office and only two of us and i won't have a big issue with my troops calling me names or anything but one of my troops may or if my troops didn't have the family commander as an officer. not that situations can be drastically different, a reason we need to get equal opportunity to see inspector general broward or a big deal to -- >> the final destination. >> correct. so the roots are different and experiences different and require different types of action. they are completely different in a different world. >> when i was going through the

process are was not in a leadership position and our did not have very friendly commands. the exact words of my first sergeant were any more harassment or this gets out, it is on yourself. that was it. there was no other out that i had to go to. as an officer, some kind of leadership to go into which is underlying the importance of making sexual orientation a protected class as we move forward and one of the priorities needed. >> one thing you know in the book is the change in policy is not applied to gender expression or trans gender. could you ever see that changing? >> it should change. one thing we could change quickly as we don't work through congress to get it done. a policy we need to deal with. it is one of those policies we

need to address very quickly because it has to go the congressional route. i see it changing and it is unfortunate -- the other services the great middle counterparts overseas but something we can attack in the near future. >> let me ask one more question. are any of you for military families? the reason i asking is you have gotten to know more gay and lesbian people. you want them to get asked the question of why you joined and how do you explain that? ..

>> but honestly, i think the difference between a gay-friendly community and, you know, a not so gay-friendly community, that didn't become apparent to me until i got to yale. so i, i'm from ohio. so i was just joining the military because that's what i wanted to do. you know, there were no qualms about it. i didn't even have a sort of consciousness about gay-friendly communities and them existing and the military being anti-gay compared to -- >> and as socially conservative as your hometown in. >> i would agree, certainly l.

>> my reason for joining wuss similar to -- was similar to everybody else's reasons for joining. the reason why i was not opposed to it is, number one, i was married at the time. in a different place -- >> was your wife a service member? >> no, she was not. she was not. i was, i had always struggled with my identity when it came to being gay from a very early age, but when i came in and when i signed that paper knowing about don't ask, don't tell i really didn't feel that it was an issue because like katie has already mentioned, when you hear don't ask, don't tell, you assume that it gives you your privacy. people aren't coming up and asking you. if someone's asking you, i don't really care if i can tell or not because i'm not being asked. but, unfortunately, that's not the way it plays out at all. it's a very invasive policy, or it was a very invasive policy. and i just, like a lot of other

people, i didn't know that. i didn't understand that. >> i mean, my reason for joining was with space camp. i went to space camp when i was little, and i asked my parents how do i do this when i grow up, and they told me to go to the air force academy, and i did it. >> [inaudible] before you went to the academy? >> no. my coming-out process was while i was at the air force academy, and, i mean, i think one of the reasons that, you know, so many people join the military even if they're gay, it's something i talk about in the introduction to the book. you'll note if you just control the whole book, manuscript, integrity and honesty are mentioned 40 times in the book, and i think every single person that joins the military just wants that sense of belonging and the sense that they're joining an institution they can trust and have that family atmosphere, and that's what we all signed up to get was that, you know? that honesty, that camaraderie. and i think that's why i stay in the military now.

that's what i really want. i really love going to work and, you know, knowing that everyone around me at work cares about me, and i care about them. so i think that's why a loot of people -- a lot of people join the military, and they strive to be -- >> i'm not from a military family. since i joined, though, my younger brother and three cousins have all joined the marine corps. so we're a military family now. [laughter] but, you know, we all joined for the exact same reasons as everyone else, and i -- >> were they supportive of you when you came out? >> yeah. very supportive, actually. and as young, you know, straight marines we're actually, my brother during -- he had his training while he was deployed over the summer, and he told he the story over the phone the day after repeal, and he said that they had the don't ask, don't tell training, they started questions, he stood up and said my brother's gay. he was discharged.

this policy is bs. he didn't abbreviate, but that's what he said. [laughter] and that set the tone for the entire discussion. there was no negativity because somebody, you know, said, had the same connections with everybody else, you know, not personally affected, but was affected by this policy in a way indirectly. and so that made me really happy to hear that that was the discussion that was taking place, and my cousins have been very supportive. but, you know, it's, the climate will change and will continue to change for lgb people who are in the military, and it's, you know, like everyone has mentioned, it's been positive for a lot of these individuals. >> and i think danny brings up a really good point. it's about setting that tone and that visibility, you know, that's one of the reasons i think the book is so important that, you know, it's visible and one of the reasons that, you know, the magazine is in print that when someone walks by that magazine, they see it. oh, there's gay troops here.

i think that's why outserve is so important right now. we are such a visible organization across the world at these military bases that it's changing people's minds because they see that there's a bunch of us serving right now. and i think in the world that we never came along and created this, i think we would be way further behind than we are right now, the fact that so many service hebbs came out and did things -- service members came out and did things like the book that we progressed, i think, farther than our counterpart overseas because of the leadership people have shown. >> let's get some questions from the audience. is there a microphone to pass around? we're on? please introduce yourself. >> hi, my name is scott. i have two -- well, i have a question about the magazine, actually. um, it's kind of nuts and bolts. i just wondered about the process of actually getting it on the military bases.

was that smooth, or did you have resistance or heros in terms of finding an actual official space to distribute it? >> it was very smooth. um, we have an incredible amount of people involved in the organization that are very, very into what they're doing, very committed, very talented. and so we had one of those individuals start to interface with the air force and the army exchange service distributers. they were very positive about the magazine. we sent them a copy for review. they approved us to distribute at several places around. when that was passed up to the people who, um, approved their distribution that being air force/army exchange, they were onboard. it was a very smooth process that could have gone the other way. [laughter] but we were very lucky, and it did not. it was very positive. >> i think what's really funny about the distribution, though, i mean, because the distribution

happened relatively easy, but i think the shock that happened at the pentagon was a big freakout, and i remember getting the call that day what the hell are you guys doing? they were scared. we did this before repeal had ever taken place, and they were like, what are you guys doing? why don't you guys just be quiet until we get the repeal through? >> who was they? >> the pentagon working group and, you know, the folks there. and, but, you know, the second edition they're asking for copies. and that's progress, right? like, i mean, they're very scared on the first edition, the second edition they're like, hey, can you guys send us a few copies? that's progress. i think that progressed the military farther. >> hi. i'm carey maloney, and my husband and i are volunteers here at the library. first, the magazine -- when i contacted josh by e-mail just knowing that we wanted for our archives your first issues of

the magazine and moving forward we want your archives for the archives -- [laughter] >> keep the new york public library in mind. >> you brought some copies with you, i hope. >> i have one. [laughter] >> we'll auction it off. [laughter] >> and this is less, this isn't a question, it's more an observation, but one of our donors came to us originally three years ago, he's in his late 80s, and his request to us was predicated on our interest in gays in the military and our collections with gays in the military. it was not the strength of our collections, and he has subsequently funded us over a million dollars. but when i sent him a copy first of "our time," this 88-year-old -- and i wish i'd brought the letter -- his response to what you guys did 67 or whatever years after world war ii was as gratifying as the response you're getting from people your age. it was a wonderful thing. so he thanks you. >> was he a service member?

>> and this was his cause for decades, was gays in the military. and the fact that the book is out is a great thing. so thanks for being here. >> don't be shy. >> hi, i'm sara. you've talked a lot about policy, um, changes and changes that need to be made still. can you talk a little bit about more on a social level, more on the culture? is, because you're describing a fairly smooth transition which i think is very uplifting and, um, but i would believe that when there's been this kind of cloud and shroud for so long, there's got to be some, some cultural

change needed. can you talk a little bit about that? do you have a vision for where things might go? >> i think there's definitely a lot of cultural work we have to do. there's still not one royal marine that's come out of the closet yet, i mentioned that in the introduction. >> and this is how many years? >> about ten years after the british have changed their policy. the brits were at our conference in las vegas, and they said that, you know, there's not one royal marine out ten years after we've changed the policy, and there's a huge, i guess, social, um, barrier that we wanted to overcome really quickly and that tie into the visibility. you know, if we do this stuff very visibly, we start to change the culture, and i think that a lot of the work we've done so far, you know, with doing so much in the media that we have, we've changed, you know, we've made huge cultural changes in the military pretty immediately, but there's a lot we still have to do, and i think that the key to making these cultural changes are the visibility, um, and that's, you know, in our plans of 2012 is, you know, going to

bases, putting up events being like here's outserve, i mean, we're ant to announce tomorrow -- about to announce a regional ski event in colorado that's not just going to bring gay troops together in colorado, but straight troops with cheap ski tickets. [laughter] that's our strategy though, right? if you can get the military, and here's a bunch of cheap ski trips, we can get the straight troops introduce today the gay troops, and that creates a culture change. let's focus on those, let's get people together, and we can start to create those cultural changes. >> following on sara's question, i'm actually curious about the cultural differences among the branches. i mean, i can't help but notice who the two of you are active duty still are in the air force. you were in the army's military training academy, and you were in the marine corps. frankly s the ma mean corps -- marine corps more homophobic? put it out there. >> i mean, i honestly think it's

different wherever you are, wherever you're stationed, the larger bases and smaller -- i was at a small town in texas, and that's very different than if i was in southern california. um, and, um, you know, you're going to have friendly people wherever you are, but at the same time it's the people in leadership positions that have to set the example for that progress to happen. unfortunately, that was not in my ace can even though -- in my case even though there was support in my unit. the person who was ultimately making the decision was the person who just happened to be the unfriendly person. and so, you know, i can, i can make, you know, jokes about, you know, what the marine corps is actually like, you know? it's very homo erotic, and a lot of people see that this a lot of senses, but it's hard to explain, i suppose, because of the way that the bonds and the brotherhood that exists in if such a tight-knit branch and

known to be the toughest, but then when it comes to one of their own, how they're going to react if issue is, indeed, that you're gay. and in my case when it was my peers, it was very supportive. so, you know, i think it's a case-by-case thing and depends a lot on where you're stationed. >> do you agree with danny's assessment, the three of you? >> i think for the most part. i think a factor we haven't mentioned yet is the number of women and how that varies across each branch. marines having the lowest, but the air force and the navy having many more women. >> as a proportion of the branch? >> as a proportion of the branch. >> more than the army? is. >> more than the army. yep. more than the army. um, so i think the average is around 17%, and i believe the statistic for the marines is in the single digits in terms of representation. >> wow. what percentage of west point cadets are -- >> it's a 5 to 1 ratio, so it varies between about 15 and 17%.

um, but i think branches that have been exposed to women and have been exposed to people different from them being able to, um, perform in the same capacity, that that's a, that's a sentiment that, um, has profound and transformative impacts on a service. so, and the air force and the navy, um, the navy now, um, women can serve in almost any capacity except navy seals whereas the marine corps and the army still have this bar on combat operations. so there is this perceived inequality at least. um -- >> and that hasn't been changed by repeal? >> right, right. >> so gay men can be in combat operations across all the services, but not, not women -- >> right, right. >> okay. >> um, so i think the two are connected in a way that's not, i

know i'm describing it very abstractly, but in a way that's not so abstract. having women in the military, um, does impact perceptions of others generally. >> sure, in the same way that feminism and the gay rights have been closely -- >> right. >> -- aligned. more in the back? don't be reticent. comments, questions? praise? [laughter] stories? >> sure. [laughter] suh fulton, i actually -- sue fullson, i work with outserve. i've been encountering a lot of sort of skepticism that things are going as well as they've been reported. can you guys give some examples of the kinds of stories you are hearing from the field? i mean, any, any examples from, you know, the network, um, just

to help people understand, you know, where people were came out and were surprised at the reaction or, you know, anything like that? >> i think the widest story and the most common one we're hearing is, you know, taking a significant other to an event. maxie phelps is one of our members who was on the marines, he was before the media today and the last few days, and i'm taking my boyfriend to my christmas party tomorrow, and i think that, you know, it's the reason that that's kind of the measure i've been using to see, you know, how successful it's been, and, you know, i think a wide majority are doing that. so i think that it really has been just that smooth. i mean, i really think it has. >> agreed? [laughter] >> seems like -- [inaudible] someone comes out to everybody in their unit, and there are

some that are surprised, but for the most part everyone will, you know, that's great, you're still a great airman or a great soldier, marine, coast guard. and it's just we haven't heard a lot of negative experiences, not that those don't exist or those won't exist in the future. but on the whole it's just been, so far it's been very smooth, and the reason why people are so skeptical of that is that leading up to repeal a lot of the argument against don't ask, don't tell repeal was it will disrupt unit cohesion. so if things are going so well, then it doesn't bode well for the other side because what we've seen is unit cohesion, in my personal experience and with those that have come out, who have come out is that unit cohesion gets better. you can build that environment of trust, and trust is very important in our relationships with each other. and that's only improving. >> um, your boyfriend's a civilian? >> no, he's air force as well.

>> has he met any of your colleagues already? >> yes, he has. he was, um, a writer for "time" magazine, also under a pseudonym for last year. of he was officer x for "time" magazine over the last year. yeah, that was definitely interesting, too, you know, coming out, essentially, together on september 20th and having, you know, being on the same base and having, you know, commanders be like, oh, here's these two people in the media doing this. but, i mean, it's all been positive. it's, you know, people that i work with want to, you know, want me to bring him and, you know, meet him. it's really, i've had no issue at all, at all. >> did you meet by being writers who were gay in the military? [laughter] writing under pen names? >> i mean, we started a club. [laughter] the club's kind of small, but -- [laughter] it's a cool club. i think my shadow looked a lot better in the media than his

shadow did. [laughter] >> how did you meet himsome. >> we met randomly through friends. he just moved to the base, and a few mutual friends introduced us, and just like two weeks later after i started dating him, he started working with the sldn, and they're the ones that helped him start writing for "time." >> but in terms of the issues you raised about staying together, if, uni, -- you know, when you change deployments? what's the -- >> i'm up to move this next summer. you know, marriages definitely happen a lot quicker in the military because of that reason specifically, you move so quickly, so a lot of people will get married to, you know, be able to stay together. and can it's, it's interesting. i mean, i kind of guess i keep pushing it aside thinking i'll deal with it when it comes, but it is kind of, you know, what do you do when -- i mean, it's one of the things i think about a lot for my future career.

do i want to keep in a career that i can't raise a family in, and i've got to keep moving every three years? that's going to weigh on a lot of people's minds. and i don't know the answer to the question myself is that, you know, i want to raise that family and everything, and and right now that's not possible. so, you know, it is a very scary reality coming next summer and things like that. >> um, if you don't mind my asking, could i ask sue a question? [laughter] how have gay veterans, gay former service members, people who, like you, you know, have graduated from the service academies or been in the armed forces and are gar or lesbian -- gay or lesbian reacted to these discussions? >> to repeal? >> repeal, sure. >> i mean, there's been a tremendous amount of celebration, you know? there's a sense of, i think there's a real sense, and we saw it at the outserve summit, there was a summit conference in october of several hundred folks

both active and veterans as well, and there was a real passing of the torch that, you know, because of don't ask, don't tell we, you know, veterans have had to be the -- to katie's point, we've had to be the face and the voice of our lgb service members, lgbt service members who the t still is silent, and is we've done that for years. we've done the best that we could. and now effective september 20th our active duty folks, you know, jonathan, josh, so many others can now do that. so, you know, i think there's just a tremendous sense of, um, that we, we finally accomplish -- you know, a little bit i can't believe that we accomplished it. we finally accomplished getting don't ask, don't tell repealed. and even though, you know, many of us are still going to be in the fight to get, to get benefits for partners and families, um, benefit equality,

many of us are still going to be in the fight for transequality, but now we share that fight with our active duty folks because they don't have to be hidden any longer. huge, yeah. >> very thoughtful. after west point, were you an active duty officer? and this is before the dadt era, right? >> yes, yes. 100 years ago. [laughter] yeah. i actually graduated with the first west point class to include women, so i experienced some big changes in this that, you know? and i would always laugh when people were like this is going to be huge, it's going to uproot, you know, it's going to be this huge uproar in the military. it's like you don't know anything -- >> 1980 was the first west point class? >> right. i was a platoon leader, company commander. i went through a witch hunt, i survived it because they couldn't find evidence on me, but it was -- >> wow. >> can -- incredibly traumatic. you know, you're part of this unit with tremendous camaraderie

like josh talks about, you know? many of us in the military, that's what we treasure is this bond of, with our, with the people that we serve with, and then suddenly you're the alien. and during an investigation for three months i was just, i mean, no one would sit with me at the mess hall at lunch, you know? it was just brutal. and even though i survived it, i left after five and a half years because i never wanted to go through that again. i never wanted to be put in a position where i had to choose between my integrity and my job. and so, yeah, i left years ago. and then i got back in the fight in 2009 when we started nights out, and that's been, it's been tremendous. >> back in 1993 -- >> yes. >> -- promise this is my last question. i know you're not on the panel. >> oh, please. what's funny is these guys know me. you've given me the mic now, you may never get it back. [laughter] i have lots of stories. >> back in '93 when dadt came onboard, it was presented as a

compromise short of full integration, right? at the time you were out of the service at that point. were you optimistic that it was positive change, and then you saw that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, or -- >> yeah. that's an interesting question because i had gotten out in '86, and then in '93 after president clinton was inaugurated and that week, you know, um, kept his promise to sign an executive order and then congress said not so -- or was going to do that and congress said shot so fast -- not so fast led by democrat sam nunn, i got very involved with at the time it was called campaign for military service, later became sldn, and did a number of speaking engagements to tell people here's what it's like living under this ban. when don't ask, don't tell was passed, the pitched as a compromise. it was a compromise to keep congress from passing a law banning gays and lesbians from serving altogether.

>> right. >> but we knew -- we didn't know how bad it would be, but there was a general feeling that they will find ways around don't ask, and they will continue to kick people out, and that actually was borne out. so we knew we'd lost, yeah. >> wow. >> does that answer your question? >> it does, thank you. >> any more? [laughter] >> one more question? >> yeah. one more question from the audience or -- any concluding thoughts from our panel, anyone want to pipe in? anything i didn't ask? sure, one more. >> [inaudible] >> hi, i'm jodi. i just have a question about the number of gay and lesbian people in the military do you think, like, what's your supposition? >> recent estimates peg it about 66,000, approximately 2.2% -- >> pardon my ignorance, but out of how many service people? >> it's 2.2%, so whatever the math is -- the military's

currently downsizing -- >> you're counting national guard, reserves -- >> uh-huh, uh-huh. and that's a rather modest estimate. um, so just based on the number of people identified -- >> so tens of thousands. >> and in just under two years we've found already close to 5,000, so, i mean -- >> there's probably many more. >> that's the -- 57,000 is the williams institute's a estimate based on any existing complications, and there are a lot of people who argue that that's underestimated. [laughter] the total force -- see, you got me started. the total force is just under a million. so there are many who believe it's maybe twice that. but the williams institute right now are the only ones who have any kind of database estimate. >> are and that's an institute at ucla that does a lot of important demographic work and research relating to the glbt community. i wanted to just take a moment to thank our panel. um, your stories have been

incredible to listen to, and i really appreciate and admire your honesty and your integrity and your work on this issue and your time tonight with this audience, so thank you all and thanks to the audience as well. can we get a round of applause? [applause] >> you can share anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. booktv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. >> joining us on booktv is

richard drake who is director of the intercollegiate studies institute. >> we've been around since the 1950s, bill buckley was our first president, and our mission is to educate for liberty by going out to college students all across the country and providing them the intellectual foundations for their conservativism. >> well, you also publish books, and i'd like to look at some of those. let's begin with this one edited by lee edwards, "reading the right books, a guide for the intelligent conservative." >> yes. so lee is a scholar at the heritage foundation, and what he's done is a huge public service because a lot of college kids today are conservative, and they don't know why they're conservative. so he gives you a little 900-page -- 100-page bibliography that says to be a smart conservative, not just a talk radiotive, -- radio conservative, you need to read these books, the conservative mind just to name a few.

>> matthew spaulding has a new book out. what is this book? >> this is called "we till l hold these truths," and we're excited about this book because not only is it an important primer on the founding principles of our nation, cpac has actually adopted this as the theme for its conference this year. we still hold these truths. what are these truths, you know, that we hold to be self-evident, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. conservativism is about conserving the american experience. >> who is matthew spaulding? >> matt spaulding is a senior scholar at the heritage foundation, and his job is to link eternal principles with current public policy debates. >> how do you publish books at isi? >> well, what we do is, you know, just like any other publisher, we're looking around for the new minds of the conservative movement. so, you know, people will send us proposals. we've been publishing for about 20 years, so, for example, one of our big books is rick