economics work for families. >> host: one more book about to ask about is the closing of the muslim mind. >> guest: this is an important book by robert riley. he just spoke on this topic at georgetown university two night to go and this -- everyone talks about the conflict is between the west and islam but people don't know what are the fundamentals of the faith. ..seat.

it's about an hour. [applause] >> well, thanks so much for all of you for being here tonight. thanks to our gracious hosts, changing hands, independent bookstores like these are a treasure and we should support them whenever we can. that's why no one is getting out of here until every copy over there is sold. [laughter] >> so my book is "founding rivals: james madison versus james monroe, the bill of rights and the election that saved the nation" those who saw the lead guitar of kiss, i regret to inform you that was last night. [laughter] >> you know, as important as this project has become to my life, i can scarcely remember the first time i learned about

this historic congressional race between two future presidents in 1789. but what i do remember is reading about it in a book and it was treated with the typical one or two sentences that you would see about this congressional race and i thought to myself, way to bury the lead. all of a sudden we're in between a race between two future pediatricians james madison, james monroe. whether we should have a bill of rights and what kind of union we should have and all of a sudden you're in the next page and they're in the first congress. that's a way to bury the lead. i decided i would read everything i could about the 1789 election. and what i found no one had ever written anything about it before, i decided i was going to tell this story. the book "founding rivals" opens at the inauguration of george washington. what many people don't know is that when he took the oath of office two of the 13 states were outside the union. north carolina and rhode island did not ratify the constitution

because of their concern that it was missing a bill of rights, a guarantee of fundamental liberties. this was common for the antifederalists throughout the continent. the common denominator of the antifederalists of which james monroe was one is that they opposed the constitution. many of them came at it different angles. many believe you couldn't have a union that covered all these diverse states, maybe independent states or regional confederacies but they didn't think any government could ever be suitable to this entire continent. james monroe represented the majority of antifederalist opinion in that his objection of the constitution is that it was missing a bill of rights. while washington took the oath of office, two states, new york and virginia, were agitating for a new constitutional convention. in the words of james madison and george washington, they were terrified at this prospect. they believed that it would be infiltrated by enemies of the new government and that the constitutional be scraped and

done away with and that our union would be fractured never, ever to come again. the book goes into the french and indian war which was a conflict fraught between in the new world and in europe made perhaps the first true world war we ever had between the french and the english and their allies. as a result of this war, the english expelled their opponents from the continent but as a consequence, what they did was remove a check that kept their colonists in terror, free from the threat of the french the american colonists were not so reliant on great britain. great britain also tried to shoulder some of the enormous cost of this onto the colonies. what followed was a rising cycle of taxation, resistance, followed by oppression, past the point of no return where we ended up in a revolution against great britain. both madison and monroe played important roles in the revolution. james monroe is a student at the

college of william and mary when hostilities began. as a student he wasn't excited by latin or grammar. he was at william and mary with his compatriots. the governor of virginia, lord dunmore seized gun powder of the militia in down nobody bought his excuse that he was fearing a slave revolt and that brought up hostilities where james monroe and his compatriots raided white house. and he joined with george washington's army and he would serve with washington in many theaters of the war, places like valley forge, germantown, the philadelphia campaign and most importantly, the battle of trenton. we all know the famous portrait of george washington crossing the delaware going over to face those who were not expecting us. monroe led a vanguard of

important men across that battle. their job in the morning before the war was to secure the street heading into town so that no one would be able to alert the british and their allies as to what was about to happen. they had been revelry, they thought that the hostilities had ceased for the season and they were unprepared for the attack. in the process, james monroe and his men alerted a doctor by the name of reicher. they woke him up. he came outside and started cursing at them because he thought they were british. when he realized they were patriots, he told them i too am a patriot and it seems something is going to happen tomorrow and i'm going to go with you because i may be able to save some poor soul. well, that poor soul turned out to be james monroe the future president of the united states. during a critical moment of the battle, james monroe charged the canons was struck down by a bullet and would have bled right out on the street for trenton had it not been for dr. reicher. this is one of two incidents in the book where james monroe narrowly escapes death. one of the things i focus on in founding rivals is just how

precarious how everything that happened really was and on you seemingly small and minor and unconspired to make great events happen in history. during the revolutionary war james madison served in the u.s. congress. when he arrived in congress he found an absolutely ruinous state of affairs i know it's nothing like you could imagine today. [laughter] >> the congress had already taken an enormous crippling national debt. when congress had exhausted its revenue and exhausted its sources of credit they simply started printing money and giving it out to people. [laughter] >> thank goodness our leaders today are too wise to do that. [laughter] >> i think it's really telling that madison serves on something called the board of admiralty this is the committee that ran the naval of the united states during the war. one of the first things they do is to deny a three-month old request for a sea captain for bread and flour. it was not that this request was unreasonable per se. it was simply that they had no

bread or flour or means to procure to give to them. they did send him a note, however, to keep up the good work. lau[laughter] >> an 18-gunboat was sitting in the harbor and it was ready to fight or british and waiting for canon and food before it could be deployed. worst of all the board of admiralty had to deal with the issue of several common criminals breaking into a warehouse and stealing all but a few bolts of the entire national supply of canvas. perhaps they were inspired by george washington's daring christmas raid because one christmas night, they broke in, they stole the canvas, congress had already directed them to distribute this canvas to the places where it was needed. the orders weren't heeded and the letters to the board of admiralty were so humorous if it wasn't so serious. the men in charge of the warehouse say we killed three of the men responsible. we think we know where to find

the fourth. and congress wrote back saying that's nice but we just want our canvas back. so madison and monroe find each other in november of 1784 and they begin a lifelong correspondence that will stretch over five decades. and by this point madison was back in the virginia legislature and monroe had gone to congress and dealt with many of the same frustrations that madison had. talking about the articles of confederation in 1777, the continental congress put together a plan to try to unify the states. before that, the continental congress basically existed to air grievances against great britain. now they had to conduct a war against the most powerful country in the world. so in 1777 they sent the articles of confederation to the states. the letter that accompanied it almost sounds like an apology almost with a good reason, this is the best that could be adopted for the circumstances of all, not very promising. the under the articles of confederation, the hapless league of friendship was unable

to raise revenue on its own, unable to raise troops on its own. it was unable to conduct any sort of rational trade policy. so even after the war the european powers would punish our merchants, punish our producers, hit our producers with heavy taxes and tariffs and because the national government had no capacity to create a revenue -- a trade policy, they would be able to play the 13 states against each other. if 12 states were to respond in kind to great britain, at least one state would look around and say, you know what? we're going to lower our tariff and have all these british goods come in to our state. so it was impossible for the congress to do anything. it was totally unequal to the task. the idea of some sort of north american union actually started in 1754 with something called the albany congress. that was benjamin franklin's idea and it was not created with the idea of independence in mind. it was created in response to the fears generated by the french and indian war. and it was to be a body that

could coordinate the response to the impending war. this was attended by 17 delegates from 7 colonies and one lobbyist. and the meeting broke up inconclusively but that general framework was later adopted into our articles of confederation. now, the national government was so weak at one point, it was completely laid low by the greedy sheriff of which he issy county, pennsylvania. just to give you an idea he was, george washington ordered a passport to the british to bring and feed their clothe their prisoners of war. so they're bringing the wagons in to go to the prison of war camp and the sheriff of chester county stops them and says you know what? under the pretense of saying they brought in too much and plan to sell it on the black market he seized all of their merchandise and congress was powerless to stand up to the greedy sheriff of chester county. one county sheriff standing up to the national government of the united states.

totally unequipped to govern a country like ours. at one point, congress has to deal with a mutiny. with no revenue to pay shoulders, the shoulders lose their patience and as the war comes to a conclusion, they're not feeling any better about their chances of getting paid. once the hostilities are done, they weren't very optimistic about what might happen. so they went to philadelphia, a group of soldiers went to philadelphia, and they're pointing guns in the windows of congress and they're menacing members of congress and congress is inside trying to figure out what to do and all they can do is appeal to the governor of pennsylvania who tells them, hey, it's not my problem. it's just one of the reasons philadelphia lost the capital and would only get it back for a temporary period under the new government. so john dickens and the governor wasn't willing to help them out. they went to princeton new jersey and they reconvened in

madison's old dorm dorm in princeton. [laughter] >> one of the most important issues that madison and monroe had to deal with during their time both in the virginia legislature and in congress was the question of the mississippi. the spanish were of a belief because they controlled new orleans and the port of new orleans that they were entitled to the mississippi river. james madison pointed out that under the international law that existed at the time that free and peaceful people could move across international boundaries without impunity. so why should the american people who are not at war with spain be more restricted than in any other place. and imagine what losing the mississippi would have done to the united states, westward expansion the port of entries that we have. the expansion of the west. it's unimaginable if we had given it to spain we probably wouldn't have gotten it back. but there's a northern confederacy led by john jay who was the minister to spain and at different times during this debate the foreign affairs minister for the congress under the articles of confederation.

and john jay thought as follows. and it was a far off place who had ever uses it. we're going to risk a war we can't win for a river that we can't use. and so he was firmly of a mind that he was going to try to give this river away to the spanish. and really this gets at the heart of the problem that the continental congress and the congress under the articles of confederation had no capacity to bring together the military might of the nation and if it had, the spanish would have never dared to provoke us into a war. but it's the quick thinking of madison and monroe and founding rivals that prevents the mississippi from being lost to the united states forever. well, we all know about the problems of congress under the articles of confederation. madison and monroe worked very, very hard to try to -- try to alter them. they tried to do two measures principally, number 1, to pass an impose where trade that comes

to the united states could be taxed and the national government would have a steady source of revenue and be able to stand on its feet and pay its debts, particularly its war debts for the brave soldiers who won revolution. it never passed the requisite 13 states. it had to be unanimous. the second thing they wanted to do was to be able to regulate trade policy across the continent. we already talked a little bit about that. because the european powers were belligerent towards united states merchants and producers and they wanted congress to be able to respond in kind. another serious issue -- there are 13 states, at least 13 different forms of currency used, at least 13 different standards for weights and measures. currency was subject to dramatic fluctuation. and the courts -- there was no national judiciary. so if you were a new yorker trying to buy something in virginia, you didn't know what you were buying, you didn't know what you were paying for it and you could be sure that you would get hometowned if the deal went south and you had to file a

lawsuit and so what they were trying to do is unleash its economic engine to create not only a military union but also an economic one that could unleash the productivity of the american people and indeed something that has allowed us to be the most prosperous country in the history of the world. that the states wouldn't have it. and so what they tried to do was to create a convention. and if the virginia legislature that is the first to call for some sort of national convention of the states to look at amending the articles of confederation, james madison gives this off to john tyler, the father of the future president to pass. james madison is a member of congress, former member of congress, was suspected of having gone federal. and john tyler who had never served in congress had more credibility to call for this new national convention. so that's what happened. unfortunately, when the delegates met in annapolis, maryland, the states didn't send the best people that they had. some states didn't send anybody. nobody sent their full delegation and so they meet for a few days and decide, you know,

the best we can do is to write-up long letter of all the problems we see with the confederation, distribute it to the states and agree to meet in philadelphia next. that gathering as we all know is the constitutional convention. james madison goes there as a delegate. james monroe does not once again, madison uses someone else to introduce his policies which is something he always did throughout his career if he thought it was more likely to succeed coming from somebody else either than him. imagine having leaders like that today who don't care about who get the credit but they care about getting things done and getting results for america, well, that was james madison. and so he has edmond randolph who's the governor of virginia introduce -- what's called the virginia plan. it's the first substantive debate of the conventional convention and it is the basic framework for our government today. the executives and the two branches of the legislature and the judiciary and all of the characteristics and all of the

powers that we associate with our national government today. there's some serious fights in the constitutional convention. both sides nearly walk out. the biggest issue that they have to contend with is actually one of representation and the congress of the confederation every stated one vote. the bigger states got to send a bigger delegation but all that delegation could cast one vote at the end of the day. virginia has over 700,000 people and delaware has less than 50. and the virginians not surprisingly didn't understand why someone in delaware has so much of a right of representation. so this is a big problem but the southern -- not the southern states but the smaller states will not yield on this point and so it's a question of yielding to them in the spirit of accommodation or scrapping the whole enterprise and going back and, unfortunately, they did agree that the house of representatives would be based on population and the senate would be based on equal representation among the states. from philadelphia comes the constitution, and i think in history books we tend to gloss

over this period in history and it goes straight from the constitutional convention in philadelphia to george washington taking the oath on the balcony of federal hall. but really what transpired in between is nearly two-year knockdown drag-out fight all across the continent weather to ratify the constitution. each state elects a constitution to sit -- a constitutional convention to sit in judgment of the constitution of philadelphia. i focus two chapters on this book on the virginia ratification convention. as the largest, most culturally important most commercially important state in the country, it is critical that virginia ratifies the constitution. the antifederalists, the opponents of the constitution try to gambit and that completely backfired on them. they decided they're going to hold the ratification debate in june. they figured some states would approve it, some states wouldn't and there would be virginia to take them and broker some sort of compromise. that was what they thought was going to happen.

the problem was, they created a third-party in the virginia constitutional convention. not antifederalists, not federalists but people who were so concerned about preserving the union that they were able to overcome their objections to that document and vote for ratification. none was more important than edmond randolph, randolph was one of several delegates in philadelphia to refuse to sign the constitution. and there's a lot of suspense around what he's going to say when he first stands up in richmond in the virginia ratification convention and what side he's going to come down on. and he says these objections of the constitution haven't changed. my principles my positions haven't changed. i have my doubts but at this point, seven states have ratified the constitution. 8 states had ratified the constitution, excuse me, and i'm not going to be the one to separate us from our sister states. and so at the end of the day, there's a lot of debate, it's fascinating some of the leading

many in american history, patrick henry as well as james monroe despite his current frustrations this constitution was too potentially dangerous. it was missing the bill of rights. he couldn't get behind it. he could get behind something that increased the powers of congress, specifically, over revenue and trade. but there had to be a bill of rights. and so he reluctantly comes out but comes out full force against the constitution. george mason is also in the constitutional convention be henry lee in richmond. at the end of the day the antifederalists try a gambit. they said why don't we stop what we're doing here, recommend some amendments to the other states and pick it up later. well, this would have had the effect of completely ending the process, the momentum would have stopped there. the vote in new york was going to be so close that alexander hamilton kept writing madison saying all is lost if you don't pass this constitution in virginia. no pressure. but everything is lost.

[laughter] >> and, in fact, new york only ratifies the constitution after more than a month debate after virginia ratifies and only then by 3 votes. and only then by -- because the federalists agree to this unanimous declaration that they're going to call for a new constitutional convention unless and until there's a bill of rights that comes out of the first congress. so what the antifederalists do is let's set this aside. this measure fails by 88-80 votes. just 8 votes. james madison didn't know if he was going to participate in the virginia ratification convention. indeed, if the antifederalists who controlled the state government had simply scheduled it earlier, madison probably wouldn't have been able to make it. he was up in new york and the congress of the confederation. and he gives his first speech in support of his candidacy to be a part of this ratification convention and aren't we glad he decided to go down there and participate because the constitution gets out of there alive by 8 votes. all seems inevitable to us today

but that's how close it was. well, following the virginia ratification convention is a legislative session that is dominated by partisan henry and of antifederalist allies. it's a chapter in my book called the terrible session. and if you were a federalist that's exactly how you would have seen it. a number of things happened right off the bat. first of all, virginia calls for a new constitutional convention. second, patrick henry, who could be very petty and personal in his politics took a supporter of james madison's came up with a pretense to come up with him not being eligible as a legislator and it was preferred to the committee on privileges and elections, the committee, of course, he's eligible to be a legislator. this doesn't make any sense. it was reported to the floor. said that he was eligible. patrick henry offered an amendment and said he was not eligible and invade to the constitution for a long windy ponderous speech. i don't know what that has to be with the eligibility but patrick thought an all of lot.

carrington wins a special election but this is what you were dealing with if you were an antifederalist -- if you were a federalist, excuse me, in the virginia legislature and the reason why they were so outmatched because the leading federalists in virginia like james marshall, james madison, the people who had spoken out at the convention weren't part of the legislature, but patrick henry who stood astride in virginia who commanded his majority with absolute obedience was able to get these measures through the legislature. at the end of the session, james gordon who was james madison's seat mate in the virginia ratification convention of orange county went insane from having to deal with the antifederalist backlash from the federalist legislature. enough to drive you crazy. two other very important things happened in this session. first of all, this is back when under our original constitution, the state legislators elected senators. so james madison is offered up by the federalists as a senator.

and patrick henry talks about rivulets of blood in the land. that there's going to be this great turmoil if we elect a federalist to congress and he'll never, ever support your rights. and james madison loses the senate by two antifederalists by a majority. patrick henry is not finished. the issue of redistricting is on a lot of people's minds right now perhaps, no more so than here in arizona. the virginia legislature at this time perpetrated the first act of gerrymandering in our first time in history and as our office points out it is patrick henry's lot that the wits of virginia didn't think to call it henry dmandering than gerrymandering. [laughter] >> what he did have were the results of the virginia ratification elections. two got dids were selected from every county because of the late data the virginia ratification convention delegates were more or less on the record with their

positions on the constitution. so he created a district for madison that was probably 3 to 1 antifederalist to federalist. not a great start. a lot of madison supporters asked him if he would consider running in a different district. i think it's a testament to madison's high character that the only district that he probably could have lost in virginia was the one that was created by his enemies to defeat him. and they even passed something called the residency law which said, oh, by the way you have to live in your congressional district for a year before you can run. it was targeted at one man the federalist and antifederalists on a party line vote had a fight over to strike the residency law and the federalists were outgunned and they lost. so madison decides, you know, i don't want my election being called into question in the first congress. i don't want this to become an issue in a different district. remember at that time the virginia legislature was one of the oldest institutions on the continent. it had a lot more credibility than this new constitution. the constitution says you only have to live in your state if

you want to run for congress. in fact, there's a number of members for the house of representatives now who don't actually live in their districts and they live close enough that it's fine with their constituents but madison decides no, he's going to stand and fight for his corner and he's going to fight in the district that he lives in, in the district he's always lived in. so the antifederalists start shopping around for a candidate to take on james madison. and reluctantly they're able to convince his friend, james monroe to carry the antifederalist banner. james monroe was a decorated combat veteran, former member of congress, member of the virginia legislature, extremely experienced and probably would have stood out head and shoulders above any of its opponents other than his friend madison who also had a long tenure in office. when monroe gets into the race, though, however reluctantly, he gets into it full force. while monroe was in congress he lost an election in virginia for the legislature by a mere four votes which his campaign manager kept writing him and telling him

come back and campaign in person. and what happened was he ends up losing by 4 votes. i think if you work with politicians for long enough you realize that their losses are seared onto them like a hot iron and monroe remembered what it was like to lose that race and he was not going to lose this election for want of trying. so he was busy writing letters to important people in the district. then as now the candidates relied on local supporters in the various counties of the district to give them advice about the lay of the land, important people to reach out to, when to come to the court day and meet with people. and that's what they did. james madison would -- james monroe would write these letters. they would go to one of his supporters in the country and the supporter would go go around and distribute to different people so they would mexico where james monroe stood on the issues. they would call them historical antecedent to the anonymous blog commentator. they were anonymous essays they were written in the newspapers. one of the enduring myths which

i hope to dispel in founding rivals you hear it every election. this is the nastiest campaign ever. well, i challenge you -- [laughter] >> i challenge you to read the election about the james madison and james monroe which had false and even negative communication. the antifederalists and i should be very clear -- james monroe had no part of this but his supporters said james madison has said not a word of the constitution could be spared and he will not get you your amendments. well, james monroe realized if he represented the federalist opinion. he thought a bill of rights was dangerous. he said we have a government of enumerated power. if we didn't give the government, for instance, the right to regulate speech, why would we need a free speech amendment to prevent the government from doing that. we might imply powers we never meant them to have. we might have some rights and forget others and thereby omit those rights to people. this is let's try it out and take it for a test-drive and see what happens. and see whether or not we really

need these amendments. james madison realized as a result of his contest with the antifederalists and the virginia ratification convention and in the election of 1789 in the fifth congressional district that there was a significant sentiment in the country and these people would never, ever be satisfied until a bill of rights was passed and adopted. so in order to gain the confidence of his countrymen in this new constitutional government, which he saw as the last best chance for creating some sort of union that could work for the states, he acquiesces in the spirit of acwehe ises. and the baptist and other religious minorities were a very important political group. they were created like many political groups since time in memorial because the government persecuted them. baptists were arrested in

private residences for prayer as we were declaring all men are created equal. people were being arrested in church, people were being arrested for preaching the gospel. and these folks were extremely concerned about this new national government. in fact, there was a unanimous resolution among the baptists in the fifth congressional district that said the constitution does not sufficiently protect our religious liberty. they actually deadlocked on a resolution whether theiol can of slavery should be lighter but whether that constitution corrected freedom of religion. they believed it didn't. so madison writes this letter to george eve so you can imagine this is rural virginia. this is 1789. and there's one baptist minister that goes to many different churches so eve had quite a few congregations that he spoke to on a regular basis and he was in tuned with madison's true sentiments on religious freedom. it was madison who passed thomas jefferson's virginia statute of religious freedom and madison had always been a friend of free

exercise of religion and they knew that. and madison wrote this letter to george eve and said if i'm elected i will support a bill of rights among that bill of rights will be the freedom of religion. and that was -- and during a really intense meeting where one of eve's congregations gathered to decide who to endorse in the fifth congressional district, eve was able to pull out his letter and rebut the antifederalists liars who were distorting his opinion for the benefit of all. and eve did great damage to their cause in the words of one observer. so james madison and james monroe -- i've talked about some of the things that were similar in this election to elections today. one of the things that we don't see enough of is that james madison and james monroe had a high level of civility towards one another in the course of campaign. they traveled together. they would stay in the same hotel. they engaged in long very heated debates. one of those debates in a church that's still there, the hebron lutheran church in culpepper,

virginia which is the oldest lutheran church and they stood out there for the freezing cold. and madison got frostbite on his way back. he used to point as his only war injuries and regale the youngsters with stories of that campaign. james madison and james monroe would both report to thomas jefferson after the election and their friendship never abated even while they disagreed passionately and even when they fell out of important issues they were civil to each other. sometimes even their most zealous supporters weren't civil to each other, they were always civil to each other and that's reflected in their numerous debates and public experiences throughout the fifth congressional district. james madison really takes the wind out of his sails and he's able to win the election by 336 votes. that's out of 2,280. one of james madison's biggest supporters wrote him and said to

him if you would have lost a fortnight and lost. so what are the consequences of this election for two future presidents in american history. what's important? we already talked about the federalist option to the bill of rights. in the first congress the federalists win lopsided majorities. remember rhode island and north carolina are staying outside the union. virginia and new york are agitating for a new convention. the antifederalists are coordinating up and down the continent getting ready to sweep the fall's legislative election in order to call their states to call for a new conventional convention effectively putting an end to our constitution. only james madison seemed to appreciate the threat that was posed by the antifederal movement. and so what he did right in the beginning of congress he announces, there are going to be a bill of rights considered this election and i plan to introduce them and we are going to consider them. so in a nixon goes to china moment where only that strong anticommunist could have gone to that country and opened it up to the west, james madison is able to bring the federalist majority

over to his side and pass the bill of rights. and it was remarked among madison's many supporters in virginia that the antis, have a new hero and it was james madison and it was because the election of 1789 that the bill of rights passed. that the union was cemented and that we are all here today in the freest most prosperous greatest country in the history of the world and this was set on a very unpromising context. try to remember a crippling national debt, a government that was intestinally paralyzed by partisanship a government that seemed wholly inadequate and the leader that seem wholly inadequate. it's impossible to think about. laugh will have >> one of my favorite quotes mark twain says history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. [laughter] >> madison -- madison and monroe found themselves trying to make this work against the most unfavorable context that i think maybe any body of decision-makers ever faced but

they rose to the occasion. every generation in american history has faced challenges. the first generation did and every subsequent generation did, whether that be pestilence or war or economic calamity or all three, the trifecta but each generation rose to the occasion and passed on to the next generation in our great american tradition a country that was better, stronger, freer, and more prosperous than the one before. we're in trouble right now as a country but founding rivals is an optimistic note of history how a previous generation rose to the challenges of how we face today and how we as a nation can go forward and we have to get out of this mess. we have to work together to do it. the final line of the book which i know is not something you hear very often at these book readings is remember. and what i would want everyone to do is remember how in the past when things looked uncertain, when things looked difficult america has always rose to the occasion and when

you read founding rivals to be the same as well. i'll be happy to take questions. are there any questions from anybody? danny? >> besides the creation of the bill of rights, what's another consequence of the 1789 election? >> well, there are two very important additional consequences in addition to the bill of rights being passed. as if that wasn't enough, the bill of rights that cemented our union, there are two other significant events that happened only because madison is there instead of monroe. and both of which i'm convinced if madison had not been there instead of monroe the country still may have faltered on the tarmac. the first of these is the question of -- it's called the decision of 1789. when they introduced cabinet legislation to create the president's cabinet positions, there's a phrase in there that says there'll be a secretary to be removed by the president and

james madison didn't think there was anything controversial there but what he had done was he had touched off the greatest constitutional debate of the first congress. some people said well, the constitution is silent on this. and so congress could grant this removal power but they don't have to. other people thought well, i think you need to use the impeachment method to get rid of a subordinate that's not following your rule. that's the only method we have in there. and some thought you could grant it to congress. some thought you could only use impeachment and others believed that you would remove these people the same way you appointed them with the advice and concurrence of the senate. well, any one of these scenarios would have been a dramatic blow to the separation of powers that we've created, you know, and these are so critical to our government. madison called the constitution a sublime commentary on human nature. he knew that the tent si of people in power was to coalesce and get more power. and so we created three branches of government, executive, legislative, and judiciary. the greatest of these the legislative is broken up into two houses.

and they're all pitted against each other with checks and balances. and it's important to maintain that system to avoid tyranny. and so madison engages in a long debate on the floor of the house. it's very uncertain as to what's going to happen. the first salvo fired by the other side was an amendment to strike the language saying to be removable by the president. later on, madison will win this debate by getting behind that very same amendment but not for the same reasons that its offer is put it forward. what he did was, he struck that language from the bill to be removable by the president and then he added language that said there should be a earthquake which of the department which shall serve as secretary in the event that the secretary is removed by the president or for any other reason. [laughter] >> so it's such an offhand reference that no one would ever mistake it for a grant of power from congress. but yet, it makes it clear that the sense of the congress is that the president can remove his subordinates at will and it would be unimaginable today to think of a president who

couldn't remove a cabinet official or a lesser official who wasn't implementing the agenda that they were elected to work on. the second important consequence in addition to the bill of rights is the location. the debate over the nation's capital in washington, dc, and the assumption of the national debt. so those of you watching in washington, dc, you are there because of this debate and because james madison won this election but 336 votes over james monroe. madison emerged as the focal point of the opposition in the first congress to secretary of the treasury, alexander hamilton's plan for the states -- for the federal government to assume the debts of the states. see, hamilton realized this would get every start off to a good footing. it would restore the public credit of the states. it would cement the union and tie the union together. well, the southern states had more or less paid off their bills. the northern states more or less had not. the southern states wanted to know why they should pay twice for their war debts when they had been frugal and in their

opinion had worked hard to pay down their debt. the northern states said if you won't come to our aid, what's the point in bees in this union with you at all if we can't rely on you for this? people were talking about secession, a bout of influenza hit washington, dc, nearly killed george washington. a very precarious time for the country. thomas jefferson runs into alexander hamilton who was usually very polished, very well dressed, clean shaven, looking none of those things in front of his house. and jefferson says, what's wrong? i'm going nuts over this -- my board of public credit is going to fail and what thomas jefferson did was he brokered a deal over wine and food at his house between james madison, the leader of the opposition of this plan and alexander hamilton. madison wasn't going to vote for the plan but he would not be too strenuous nbc opposition there's speculation that he and jefferson found the vote to put him over the top. hamilton would turn over and use his influence, his leverage with

the northern states who badly needed this bill to select the potomac site for the nation's capital. this is referred to as the first great compromise, the first of three before the civil war. and this kept the piece and this kept the country together. so what would have been different than monroe instead of madison. number 1 aside from the bill of rights monroe's biggest part of the constitution was the power executive. he risked his life he wasn't about to vote for a new one to come out under a different mind. he was concerned of the power of the presidency. he would not have carried the banner the way madison had. indeed, he probably would have voted differently on the executive question, the people who believed that the president didn't have the power to remove the subordinates i think they would have carried the day and i think they would have upset that delegate balance of power and i think the country would have crashed on the tarmac. what would you do to the president who was beholden to every employee in the executive branch. monroe was opposed to the assumption of debts like everyone in the south but he

couldn't have the way madison did. you see, madison was the leader of the federalist party in congress. it's important to note the difference between then and now. now the speaker of the house is the leader of his party. he's the most powerful member. but in the first congress, the speaker of the house was largely confined to a ceremonial road, kind of like the british house of commons. they didn't have a lot of authority. they weren't the leader of their party. james madison is the leader of the federalist party in the first congress. and so with the leader of the federalist party opposing the plan of hamilton the federalist he was able to effectively block this legislation in a way james monroe would not have been able. these three critical things, the bill of rights their first great compromise and the executive question were all decided differently because of 336 votes in 1789 in the fifth congressional district of virginia. >> where did you do your research with libraries, museums? do you have some examples? >> yeah, i spent a lot of time in what was called the madison reading room, the manuscript room of the library of congress

which is named after james madison and so it was fun to be able to research james madison in a room named after him. and unlike the library of congress, they let me check out books and take home books that i had absolutely no business -- [laughter] >> being able to check out and take home. [laughter] >> my primary source for founding rivals is the letters of the founding fathers themselves. i tried to let them speak for themselves, whenever possible. and madison was very meticulous. he cataloged ever letter he ever wrote or received. james monroe not as much but also there was a lot there that i could use to get a sense of who james monroe was and how he interacted with his compatriots. so arizona state university was an excellent resource. the library of congress was a great resource. i tried to go to places like the hebron lutheran church just to see what it would have been like when madison and monroe sat out there after a church service and debated the constitution in the snow for hours. i got to spend a lot of time in

virginia working on this book because i was working on an election there and it was wonderful to be able to retrace the steps and work on an election in what used to be the fifth congressional district in virginia work to support candidates there in the footsteps of madison and monroe. so those are the two principal places and the sources i looked for for this research. any other questions? >> why do you think this race was so overlooked by other historians? >> that's such a great question and i get it a lot and the problem is, what immediately jumped out to me was being historically significant. if i have to make excuses that allowed me to make the book, thank you for not appreciating the significance of this race or writing about things you thought were more important. i think if anything it's bookended by such consequential events on either side of it. you know, we go from the constitutional convention in philadelphia, next thing you know washington is taking the oath of office and all is well. and one of the things i try to point out in this book is that nothing is inevitable. the things you do have consequences. the actions you take in public

life, the thing that is definitely within your power is to never give up. you know, madison and monroe despaired. they despaired that was equal to these, you know,ist states after annapolis where barely anybody shows up and in philadelphia where it looks like both sides are going to walk out. when it looks like the congress -- or the ratification conventions might not approve the constitution. it was desperate. and it was close. but they didn't give up. and so that is such an important thing that we don't consider. it looks so inevitable. the steady march of history from the colonial area to independence where we threw off the bonds of the most powerful empire the world had ever seen and established unlike other revolutions we established an orderly government, not a monarchy, not a tyranny, not an arky but an orderly free republican government and that was without precedent western the history of human activity and so this is important and it's badly overlooked by history, you know, when i first started just to read about this and not write about it. i went to the comprehensive

three-volume life of madison written by reeves who was a contemporary of madison who was a little bit younger than that. i thought it would be great for a great account of the election three pages in three volumes. when we think of congressional elections as part of trends, reactions to financial panics, reactions to war, rebukes to unpopular presidents and so we think of them as trends with the exception of the race between abraham lincoln and steven douglas. that's one place with we talked, the places where they debated are popular tourist locations. has anybody been to virginia? you can't go anywhere without seeing one of those gray and black signs to denote someone famous who lived there. some famous battle that happened there. my favorite is the church of the blind preacher in albemarle county. i think it's great they take their history so seriously but you will never find anything to denote one of the spots where

madison and monroe debated each other and hopefully some day we can change that. >> two questions. are you able -- are we able to tease out any -- what parts of the district of the fifth congressional district of virginia were supported one or the other candidate? were there certain segments of society that one or more was popular with and secondarily, what was any role at all of thomas jefferson and george washington two big virginians of the age? >> those are great questions. to the first, that's a great question. why did some people fall on the federalist sides of things and why some on the antifederalist sides. well, to generalize, federalists were people who were engaged in the mercantile trade hey i can see the benefit of having the same currency when i go two miles north into maryland. i can see the benefit of having a fair judicial system when a deal goes sour in delaware. i can see the benefit of having a government with national trade

policies so that the british stop taxing my goods so i can open up a worldwide market for my products. people who were not engaged in interstate trade, some of those folks were -- you know, they said, i don't know about this new government. i think it's going to invade my liberties. and i don't see any consequence to confederacy to staying this way. so to generalize that is sort of neatly why they fall in one place and. sometimes it's not that neat. they were in total uncharted territory. it was a government unlike the world had ever seen and they came to different conclusions about it. james madison and james monroe who were descended from early seventeen century early inhas beenats to the virginia colony who had similar up-briggs but madison was a little more aflubt. both educated. and they came to different conclusions. even though their service almost totally mirrored each other. the virginia legislature they served on the council of state and there was a plural

executive, one they became free americans were terrified of the executives so they didn't want to just have one governor. they pet them in with a council of state so he could practice his executive power exactly. they both served in the continental congress and the confederation and they had exactly the same resume but they came to two totally different conclusions about this and it was true for a lot of their countrymen as well. and then the second question -- [inaudible] >> thomas jefferson is in paris as a minister to france during this time. he does receive the most complete post-election analysis from both madison and monroe. thomas jefferson was their dear mutual friend. thomas jefferson once referred to madison and monroe as the twin pillars of my happiness. in fact, thomas jefferson vests some time in founding rivals in trying to convince madison to move next to him in albemarle county. so i've already got monroe. if the three of us could live together we could hang out and retire from private life and we could be really happy, reading

books, talking about books, talking about the big ideas of the day. so he called him the twin pillars of his happiness. and so he was pleased to get messages from both of them saying our friendship was never set aside no matter how passionate the debate went. i felt bad against running against my friend. this is what happened but we're still friends. and so jefferson is over in france but george washington very much wanted madison to win this race. and one of the first letters of congratulations that madison receives is from george washington. it was nothing that washington had against monroe. washington was responsible for promoting monroe through the ranks of the continental army, who lived with someone else during the winter at valley forge who could help see that person as a dear friend and a kinsman. i think i quote a different book in founding rivals where they talk about valley forge a name associated with misery since the eighteenth century and indeed it was. they lived through some of the worst fighting of the war together but it was because washington relied on madison, his advice, his counsel --

madison is really the principal advisor to washington in at least the first year of his presidency. i think to some degree that role shifts to alexander hamilton but in the beginning it's james madison. and the first -- one of the first letters of congratulations he gets, congratulations on the majority of a respectable number of your peers. now, help me write my inaugural address and that's what he does. and james madison is the principal author of washington's first inaugural address which includes a call for amendments to the constitution to satisfy the antifederalists setting the stage. congress asks madison to draft the response to washington. and madison writes this response and he's like, wow, that was such a good speech. i don't even know how to respond. [laughter] >> and then washington says, well, i have to send a reply to congress, will you help me write it and, of course, madison was happy to oblige him. and i offer that in founding rivals not just because it's humorous because it attests to the high standing that james

madison had among his colleagues in the congress and the president of the united states. everybody wanted to be a right pa of george washington's inner circle but only madison had the caliber, the trustworthiness and the intellect in washington's estimate to be his principal advisor during those critical early days where washington is trying to figure out what is the president what does a president do? >> was there a great deal of debate about what would exactly be in the bill of rights or was it generally understood that it would be, you know, religion, speech et cetera? >> that's such a great question. there was an enormous amount of debate over what a bill of rights would look like. in fact, many of the state ratification conventions, virginia included, sent recommendations to congress along with the recommendations. we think you should pass these amendments in the first session and there were literally hundreds of different ideas around there but madison focused on a few things. number 1 he wasn't going to do anything structural.

some of the amendments focused on weakening the executive, stripping away important powers from congress, like the power to regulate trade or raise revenue. he with weren't going to go to anything structural. we were going to focus on fundamental liberties. madison here is trying to take the wind out of the sails of the antifederal movement so he's trying to calculate exactly what kind of measures are going to do that. well, first you can look to the rights of free englishman the great traditions of english history that people had. the freedom that people had as englishmen. one of the great things about living under a tyrant -- they had all been subject to king george iii dispositive you pretty much have a good idea -- if you had a mad tyrant governing you. so, for instance, when they were trying to tax the colonists after the aftermath of the french and indian war, smuggling went through the roof and to catch these smugglers we're going to be able to send soldiers into your house without warning, without notice, without any sort of sanction from the judiciary. they're going to be able to go into your house and they're going to be able to search until

their heart's content and so people knew what they needed to protect against in the event there was a mad tyrant. that example of george iii is fresh in our mind and so madison selects from these fundamental liberties that had a long tradition in the united states and some of the most grievous offenses that great britain had inflicted on its colonists and that's how he gets that list and the list more or less passes exactly how he introduces it. now, a lot of people don't know this. the bill of rights was originally 12 amendments and 11 of them have passed and one of them passed in the 1990s. so you got the first 10. you got the bill of rights. in the 1990s, finally enough states ratified an amendment that says the following. if congress wants to increase its pay, that's fine but the pay increase won't go into effect until there's been an election for the house of representatives in between. so that people couldn't just vote themselves a lavish salary and retire. you're not going to touch a nickel of that pay until the entire house of representatives and a third of the senate. well, what happened was -- it

was a student i believe in the 1970s at the university of texas who wrote a paper about this. and he said this is still out there. states could pass this. and his teacher gave him a failing grade. [laughter] >> he said this is the worst idea ever. [laughter] >> never underestimate the power of spite. he went and in those preinternet days wrote a letter to ever legislator in america. in case you want to you can still do this. why wouldn't you. it's always a winning issue to go after congress so why wouldn't you -- why wouldn't you want to pass this and so in the 1990s finally enough states go ahead and ratify this. the 12th amendment thank goodness we never passed this would have guaranteed one representative, one member of the house for every 10,000 citizens. so we would be -- you think congress can't get anything done now, wait until there's 10,000 members of the house of representatives. [laughter] >> what did monroe go on to do after losing the election? >> that's a great question.

well, it's a happy ending for monroe not at first. you know, you may be able to sense some familiar sentiments if you're a friend of mine, james monroe was a very frustrated attorney. he didn't necessarily -- didn't necessarily enjoy the practice of law. at one point, you know, early on he says i'm getting a law degree so i can run for office. it's going to be helpful in my political career. i'm never going to practice. and as madison is championing the bill of rights, james monroe is winning an indictment against a man from stealing a mair and he complaining about the pace of litigation, some things never change. but what happened there's a death -- one of the two senators in the senate dies and monroe actually gets to serve in the first congress after all. and monroe goes on to a fantastic career. he is the ambassador to france. he helps negotiate the louisiana purchase. along with james madison who was the secretary of state for

thomas jefferson. the two of them will have a little bit of a falling out again who should succeed jefferson as president. some of the opponents to thomas jefferson coalesced behind monroe as a possible candidate to go up against jefferson's chosen successor who was madison but madison brings monroe despite this in his cabinet and they preside over the war of 1812 together and they will go on to be the best of friends in retirement when their public careers are over. they will serve at the end of their lives, toward the end of their lives in a state constitutional convention in virginia. those two and john marshall and all these young hot heads. and what they're fighting for is representation in virginia. you know, there were very few slaves west of a certain line in virginia and so western virginia didn't have the representation that eastern virginia did. similar to a debate we had at the constitutional convention. madison and monroe tried everything. they said well, how about one branch -- maybe the senate could be based on -- it could be equal and maybe the house it could be,

you know, we're not going to take slaves into account. you guys don't know what you're talking about. this is the danger of bringing old men into public life. these people that they'd grown up lionizing at first they're so excited and they electricity james madison unanimously to chair the convention. you guys have no idea both sides were threatening to secede and, of course, they didn't appreciate the fact that the union had once been so perluss and madison and monroe knew what it was like to live in a time when it was an open question whether america could exist as one country and if only they had listened those old men still had some lessons to teach them yet. >> did madison remain in the federalist camp or did his time with jefferson and monroe switch him over to the democratic republicans? >> yeah, there's a lot of discussion. i think it's clear that madison moves out of the federalist -- what had been traditionally the federalist orbit. you see the two parties were roughly defined by their