opportunity to go to russia to work in the archives. and so what happened is that over the past two centuries much about what was written was written from the french perspective. we look at them, the french memoirs, napoleon's rising. we look at the events through the eyes of the french. ..

>> next on booktv, film maker oliver stone and author and film maker tariq ali present their thoughts on what they consider to be hidden aspects of american history. their discussion ranges across several topics from american involvement against the russian revolution to a profile of the labor union, the industrial workers of the world. this is about an hour and a half. ♪ >> hi, everyone. thanks very much for coming. i think me many of you know, it's oliver who's the problem. [laughter] so in order to introduce oliver, we're going to see, initially, a four-minute film reel of his work just to acquaint you.

prepared by the savannah film festival. okay, guys. one. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> timing. ♪ ♪ >> you don't want the war, we don't want the war, the

vietnamese don't want the war.a% so why does it go on? >> sir, do you intend to cooperate with senator irvin's committee? >> mr. president? >> mr. president? [gunfire] >> i didn't kill my pop. >> evenny, meanny, mineny -- >> we've got to position it. >> yeah. i buy. >> the point is, ladies and gentlemen, greed is good, and greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save our paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the usa. thank you very much. [applause] ♪ ♪ >> never forget on any given sunday. >> yes, the world is a terrible place. >> it's about the game. ♪ love is a burning ring, and it

makes a fiery ring. ♪ bound by wild desire -- >> say hello to my little friend! ♪ i fell into a ring of fire >> let's go, move it, move it! let's go! ♪ ♪ >> i just want to be anonymous like everybody else, do my share for my country like grandpa did in the first war, dad did in the second. well, here i am, anonymous all right. guys nobody really cares about.

>> not everybody becomes united states marines. we want the best, and we'll accept nothing but the best. >> look, i'm saying i want to be treated like a human being! i taught for my country, i am a seat m name veteran! i fought for my be country! ♪ good-bye, this is where our story ends, never lovers, ever friends. ♪ i wish you bluebirds in the spring to give your heart a song to sing. ♪ and then a kiss, but more than this i wish you love ♪ bkccwww

[applause] >> for your generation, for our generation really the seat that many war was sort of crucial. it was the defining war of that period. and memories of it remain even now with the younger generation. so what i'd like you to tell us is how you personally got involved in that war. i mean, i know there was a draft, you were drafted to fight, but something more than that.

draft. volunteered. >> i came from new york city, i went to the public library, i was a student, and i was at yale, and i dropped out. i had personal problems and demons, and i wanted to get out of the system that existed at yale. bush was in my class, george bush, as well as many people of that, of that type. would say entitled.g and i dropped out, and i consciously went over there to teach school, and my father was republican. make a long story short, i believed in the war, i thought we were fighting communism, and i went back and i enlisted -- i volunteered for the draft and went back in '67-8 which was the height of the conflict, and i means. i had romanticized it from my movie experience. but i disagree with you on one thing, it's the memory of it. i don't think it is memory. i don't think it has been

remembered. i think we have done a very good job of hiding it and covering it up. won it, even clinton to kids, you know, the memory of it, what i a lot of not -- were very about vietnam. the kids today, very kid ourselves. go to iraq mean, we see what's been absorbed -- >> i think you're right about that. i think the way in which history is just erased in the minds of u.s. citizens, especially over

the last 20 years or so it's very different, but than what used to be because, i mean, the big difference about the vietnam war was that it was actually reported every day on your television screens. i mean, we used to see some of those images in britain. morley safer reporting on cbs. and describing a village being burnt and saying deadpan, and this is what we are fighting for, freedom and democracy. totally deadpan, and you see a village being burned, and women on fire screaming and running out. and what they've done since that war is that the coverage is very controlled. and what you're shown is what the vietnam war they couldn't completely control the stuff coming out, and that was important. and, of course, the place where that war isn't forgotten at all is in vietnam. they will never forget it. so this america they forget

it -- in america they alternate it because you move on to the next war, but the people who actually suffered, i guess even some of the young generations it's history now, but they see the scars. >> the forces of empire, you minimized to some degree, it was denied or marginalized, and the true you, but i saw shots, i was in of bush know, 28 days after, a zombie movie. there was nobody on the streets. in my leaf, and the shot of that car bush asked his wife how was the shopping or

something like that. media can bury a protest, clearly, they can bury the grievances of a population all around the world this seems power. >> and the lessons of vietnam have been very important for you because you've made a trilogy about vietnam. and then in jfk you argued controversially, i remember many people criticizing you very strongly for that. the theory that kennedy was possibly assassinated by the intelligence agent is because he was thinking of pulling out of vietnam. we'll come to that in a minute, but there's one scene in jfk which i found when i first saw it quite hypnotic.

it was about a 17, 18-minute talking heads theme which in itself is quite remarkable for cinema, to just show talking heads occasionally illustrated making a very strong argument for what happened. we can't show you the 18 minutes today,ing but we'll show you a three-minute clip. >> i never realized kennedy was so dangerous to the establishment. is that why? >> well, a real question, isn't it? why? the how and the who is just scenery for the public. ruby, cuba, the mafia, keeps 'em guessing, prevents them from asking the most important question, why? why was kennedy killed? who benefited? who has the power to cover it up? who? in 1961 right after the bay of pigs, very few people know about

this, i participated in drawing a national security action 55, 56, 57. these are crucial documents, classified, top secret. but basically in them kennedy instructed the chairman of the joint chiefs that from there forward the joint chiefs of staff would be responsible for paramilitary action in peacetime. this basically ended the reign of the cia, splintered it as jfk promised he would into a thousand pieces, and now he was ordering the military to help him do it. this was unprecedented. i can't tell you the shock waves that this sent along the corridors of power in washington. this, of course, the firing of alan dulles, all of them sacred cows in intel since world worldr ii. very upset people here. kennedy's direct is were never -- directives were never really implemented because of bureaucratic resistance, but one of the results was the cuban operation was turned over to my

department as operation mongoose. mongoose was pure black ops. it was secretly based on the south campus of i'm's university which was the largest domestic cia station budgeted annually over hundreds of millions of dollars. 300 agents, 7,000 select cubans, 50 fake business fronts for laundering money. they waged nonstop war against castro. crop burning, the works. and all of this came under the control of general wyatt. all he did was take the rules used abroad and brought them into this country. now he had the people, the equipment, the bases, and he had the hot vegas. and don't underestimate the budget cuts that kennedy called for in march of '6 be either. -- '63 either. 21 overseas bases. you're talking big money. do you know how many helicopters were lost in vietnam? hmm? nearly 3,000 so far.

who makes that? bell helicopter. who owns bell? bell was nearly bankrupt when the first national bank of washington first approached the cia about the f-111. general dynamic, who owns that? the defense budget since the war began. 75 going on 100 billion. nearly 200 billion to be spent before it's over. in 1949 it was 10 billion. no wars, no monies. the organizing principle of any society, many garrison, is the war. the authority of the state over its people resides in its war powers. and kennedy canted to end -- wanted to call off the moon race in favor for cooperation with the soviets. he refused to invade cuba in 1962, and he set out to withdraw from vietnam. all of that ended on the 22nd of november,1953.

[applause] >> [inaudible] >> it's quite an amazing scene, oliver. the question is, is it true? [laughter] i mean, i know it's a movie s and it's fiction, but it's based on facts, mostly, isn't it? >> yeah. a lot of these facts came there a kohl them in the air force, and he worked very closely, he was an officer, but he was a focal point officer with the cia, and he did a lot of black ops. he knew alan dulles. he would provide the hardware -- they didn't have the right to the hardware -- he would provide the hardware, the guns, the planes, the drops. he used to go to dulles' townhouse every couple of weeks, and, you know, he knew them all. in fact, he never -- he pointed his finger at alan dulles, but the older i got i do believe he is the man who initialed this, who gave it the okay. i think it's dulles, and i think

he had the angle -- jim james angleton was a counterintelligence chief who was slightly mad and paranoid, and richard helms was the deputy. i think those three guys, i would say now before i go to my grave, were the real culprits here. >> you're quite convinced in your mind that, essentially, it was the intelligence agencies that organized it? >> well, you talk about this all night, but as fletcher said, there's just no way to have pulled off. it says very clearly abroad we did this consistently, we did it well, we were able to do it for a while very successfully in places like iran and guatemala and so forth. and then we ran into why not bring it here, why not -- why if you have such a gigantic base in florida and guatemala against the cubans, it makes sense that it starts to creep into our

country. >> and -- there and to cover it up, too. dulles was on the warren chition on top of it. >> yeah. what was that book you gave me, the author's name? >> james douglas. >> the book on the kennedys -- >> "kennedy and the unspeakable." it's a new book, james douglas. fascinating. i think it's a beautifully-written book. >> it's very convincing, i have to say. i mean, i read it on the flight back from l.a., most of it, and it is pretty convincing. the thing is if you're convinced, douglas is convinced and others are convinced, when will this come out, if ever? someone must know. >> you're asking for magic solutions to history. it doesn't work that way. generally, the bad guys cover up and win. >> it's a pity there was no wikileaks at the time. [laughter] >> pity what? >> there was no wikileaks at the time. >> yeah, that would have worked. >> and so we've seen that scene

again, the vietnam factor that you argue or they argue or your informants who gave you that thing argue that one reason for bumping off kennedy was he was going to come out of vietnam. and in this next clip that we're going to see, it's what they actually did in seat that many which goes on today in iraq and afghanistan. funny, we were, you know, when we were talking before i told you that while you were fighting in south vietnam, i was in north vietnam being bombed by u.s. jets. we were there as part of a peace mission sent by two philosophers to investigate war crimes and had to spend quite a number of nights in bomb shelters all over the country. and days. and often we were told this was

what was happening in south vietnam, what you showed in the film. and it was so horrendous that to be honest with you we did just one day -- is this just propaganda, saying this to make us angry? they don't need to because we're angry anyway. but can this be happening? and then as the archives and the footage came out, and this particular clip, i thought, was very revealing because this is a clip which could be head about iraq or about afghanistan or parts of africa even. so let's see it. two. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> fire in the hole!

>> fire in the hole! ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> hey, come on!

get out of here! don't do it! don't do it! you fucker! what is this, huh? >> what the fuck is your problem? >> she's a fucking human being, man! fuck you! fucking animal! >> you don't belong in nam, man. this ain't your place at all. >> you don't fucking get it, do ya, man? you just don't fucking get it. it's okay. >> get out of there! >> come on, guys. let's get outta here.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> only because the vietnam war was fought by people whether they volunteered or were drafted, it meant that, you know, the whole of american

society was involved in it unless you managed to bribe your way out of not going or ran away to canada or burnt your draft card which many be great people did. but by and large, every family in the country was affected which meant that around the breakfast table families, not political even, had to discuss the war in vietnam. and because middle class and upper middle class families were affected as well, it meant that you had a huge movement against the war which spread to the g.i.s as well. and that descent in -- dissent in american society during the vietnam war while the war was being fought i thought was one of the high moments of american political culture really. people felt they couldn't go along with it, and some people did crazy things like the weather people. but by and large, the motives were to try and stop this war from going on. and that we haven't seen

repeated. could it be because the draft is no longer there? everyone has to volunteer for war, o people who matter in a way -- so people who matter this a way don't volunteer? >> you're talking about the volunteer army we have now? >> yeah. wars in if iraq and afghanistan. >> this is like a -- this is the roman forward. what was the word for it, rohan legions, there was a special -- >> pretorian. >> pretorian guards. highly trained. i wouldn't isolate vietnam. history of and in hurricane. and in france. 1972 or 3.

the attitude of the story because there ignore korea. interests. o behave, and was more racism in the in koreans indiscriminately from south and north. >> yeah. and there was no protests -- >> and nothing in korea. it was a hidden war. >> and be i remember once when i journalist on my way back from north vietnam this '67, wilfred bear chard, and we met at his house, and he said, was it bad? and i said, yeah, it was really

bad. seeing people die every day is bad, you know? is and he said, yeah, it's bad, i've been there, but it's not as bad as the korean war, because i was there. and he said when they finished bombing pyongyang, there were only two buildings left in the entire city. and, in fact, and throughout north korea every single building was destroyed during that war except the building where they were negotiating a peace set settlement. story, our history on chapper one which is really hiroshima and nagasaki, japanese didn't know the difference between the thousands of people were killed, they were devastated by it, and the atomic bombs.

first. they reacted when the soviets invaded manchuria because the soviets terrified them and they were heading towards sacred territory for the japanese. so we tried to show it was really the soviet entry into the bomb from the united states mopg other things. >> the dissent, of course, in the '60 and '70s was very strong. dissenting voice doing what the hero does in "born on the fourth of july," he'd probably be charged with terrorism and locked up, imprisoned without trial for many a long month. so it's worth reminding ourselves that civil liberties have been curtailed very

drastically since 9/11. so if we could just see that scene, it's four. >> what do you have to say to these people? >> my name is -- [inaudible] i'm a vietnam vet iran. veteran. this society lied to me, lied to my brothers. the people in this country -- [inaudible] 13,000 miles to fight a war against people who have a proud history of resistance. who have been troubling for their own -- struggling for their own independence. i can't, i can't find the word to express how the leadership of this government sickens me. people say, people say if you don't love america, then get the hell out. well, i love america. we love the people of america very much.

but when it comes to the government, it stops right there. the government is a bunch of corrupt thieves, they are rapists and robbers s and we are here to say that we don't have to take it anymore. we are here to say, we are here to tell the truth. we are killing our brothers in vietnam. >> let him speak! >> we want to speak the truth tonight! >> we're never going to -- [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] this steel, our steel is your he moil day on wheels. we are your yankee doodle dandy come home. >> rejekyll any philosophy that would make us -- reject any philosophy that would make us a

divided people. >> some sort of scuffle or commotion has broken out on the floor of the convention. disabled veterans protesting the war in vietnam. we're going to try to get a microphone down there. >> why are they -- [inaudible] the truth is they -- [inaudible] they have sacrificed! ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ [cheers and applause] >> when there is so much -- [inaudible] let's give those who have served in seat that many the honor and the -- in vietnam the honor and the respect that they deeveryone and they've earned. deserve and they've earned. [applause] >> i'm going to hajj that wouldn't -- happen that wouldn't -- >> that actually happened, and ron coe vick was evicted with two other fellows, and there was a big battle outside that

happened -- >> yeah, i remember that. >> by the way, looking at those faces as he goes up the aisle, young/old, you know, the anger on the faces is directed at ron. i feel that nothing has changed. i mean, there was a south carolina primary election going on, ask the other day i read a quote that was unbelievable that romney, you know, they're outdoing even other with their patriotism. south carolina's a very military industrial complex state. so at one point romney said when he was challenged, ron paul was talking about getting out of foreign wars, and all the other candidates were jumping on him and saying that they, we had to defeat terrorism abroad, and the american security came first. and romney actually said something to the effect, and i'm paraphrase, i will go anywhere and kill them. in order to outdo rick perry and so forth. so here's a fellow who may be,

you know, this is the kind of hysteria that builds upon so that the enemy is pretty much anywhere in the world and is reachable. >> that is the advantage of saying the enemy is terrorism because it means nothing, or it means everything. you can target a person anywhere in the world and say person or group of people are terrorists and target and kill them. i mean, one of the most shocking things, i think, in recent months has been, essentially, obama signing a law which gives the president power to order the killing of any american citizen without due process. is so what these wars abroad and what sort of imperial strategy is doing is now seriously affecting civil liberties at home, and that's very dangerous. i mean, both are bad, but there is a real, a real link to each other.

but only where this is, you know, the situation we're in now is going on in a period of grave economic crisis for this country. i mean, the wall street system crashing in 2008 as the whole world now thoughs was not an -- knows was not an isolated incident. it sent europe into total crisis, the chinese and that far eastern sector are a bit be immune. but the process that began in the reagan years of creating this new system and de-industrializing the united states, the emergence of finance capital, fictitious capital, money making money and making nothing else was portrayed in "wall street." so we'll come back and talk about that, but this is a very powerful scene this "wall street" where the father and son

actually confront each other. could we have five? >> well, congratulations, dad. you just did a great job embarrassing me, not to mention yourself. look, save the workers of the world's united piece for next time, i heard it too much going up. >> oh, yeah? >> >> yeah. you you are going to get axed, and if it isn't them, it's -- if it isn't gecko, it's going to be some other killer. >> he's using you, kid. he's got your prick in his back pocket, but you're too blind to see it. >> no. what i see is a jealous old machinist who can't stand the fact that his son's become more successful than he has. >> what you see is a guy who never measured a man's success by the size of his wallet! >> that's because you didn't have the guts to go out in the world and stake your own claim!

>> boy, if that's the way you feel, i must have done a really lousy job as a father. as far as being axed, i'm still around. i have a responsibility to the union membership i represent. >> your respondent, dad s to present the facts, not your opinions to their mens. you're going to their lives. >> when my men come to me want to know what's going on, i'll be damned if i'm going to lie. >> your men! your fucking men! all my life your men have been able to count on you. why is it you've never been there for me, huh? what if you're wrong? what if one day the sun didn't rise in the east and for once your compass was off? would you be willing to wreck your men's future? my future? dad, think for a change.

be practical. i'm asking you, fucking begging you. >> i don't go to sleep with no whore, that's how i live with heist. i don't know how you do it. i hope i'm wrong about this guy. but i'll let the hen decide for themselves -- the men decide for themselves. that much i promise you. ♪ ♪ [applause] >> capitalism, oliver. >> what? >> i said the crisis of capitalism. obama. what i find quite, i mean, it's really quite interesting which is, i think, it's never been like this before because in previous times when you had huge cry cease either within

capitalism or outside it, people had alternatives. new deal, do something, save jobs, build industries, get people back at work, employ out-of-work painters and intellectuals, writers, get them writing the history of american cities, get things moving, whatever it was. this is the first time i can think of historically when all this is going on, and no one is coming up with alternatives. i mean, krugman goes on in "the new york times," one listens to them. you know, even their mild sort of ideas are not being taken seriously. and that is, it's sort of quite worrying in a way that, i mean, this europe now as a result of this crisis you have two parliaments in greece and in italy voting to hand over their countries to unelected bankers to be run by them.

i mean, that's what's happened. they voted, yeah, let the bankers run us because if banksers run us, the german state will give up the money to bail out. bail out what? banks? >> tariq and i have often gone around on this subject matter because tariq says it very clearly, he believes in marx. and my father raised me believe anything capitalism. believing in capitalism. so we are on different sides of the fence. i would say that the only sane alternative to the argument which is polar opposites is, you know, what ron paul has been talking about. and he talks about the concept of corporatism, he calls it. and he differentiates corporatism from what he calls the free market. now, there are blemishes, of course, in the free market, but he does believe the larger these corporations become, the more powerful, the more government-related and the government nexus with corporations and banks and insurance companies, the

harder -- the system becomes fucked up. the free market can no longer operate in a healthy way. that is my, i prefer to keep the market and make it work. i think the corporations have become enormous boil on the system. >> but, oliver, what is very, you know, pay tent is that the -- patent is that the market isn't working. i meerntion we were told -- i mean, we were told for the last 20 years by the people who run the world and the corporations that the market was the only determinant. everything else was out, state intervention was out, public utilities had to be privatized, private capital entered the most hallowed domain of social provision. we were told all that. then the minute the market begins to collapse, all these

same people who have been telling us that go on their knees to the state and say, state, please, help us out. so the state isn't allowed to help -- [applause] because that's not permissible, but the state is allowed to help the big bankers and the corporations. i mean, where ron paul -- i mean, his criticism certainly on the empire are very -- [inaudible] and even on the big corporations. but what is his alternative? i mean, how can you, i mean, the free market has never really operated in reality in any country. there's always been external help to it. i mean, you can't have a free market if you have monopolies in giant corporations controlling a country, and that is the way -- >> that's what he's talking about. that's the separation. governments have to be referees. if government becomes a participant as it does in socialism, it becomes another corm of corporatism.

they have not solved this health care, the cost of health care has achieved enormous proportions. and it should not have arrived there because there's been this collusion between government and medicine and pharmacies and insurance companies. >> this is absolutely true. >> and this is the heart of the matter. i say the fair market can work. >> but, listen, if you look at the health care problem, the costs of health care in the united states are more than in those european countries where you have the state funding health care full stop. here the costs are very high, it's because they won't break with the insurance companies and the pharmaceuticals. >> that's right. >> they pay them enormous amounts of money in order to get some health care system functioning which isn't really functioning that well. and, i mean, in my opinion the only way to have a proper help system functioning in any

country is that help should be free. it should not -- no one should be allowed to make profits of the health of citizens and poor people -- [applause] which means, essentially, that the pharmaceutical companies in particular should not be allowed to make these profits. and in countries where you have the state pharmaceuticals, as you know full well in cuba, the medicines are dirt cheap. and when the brazilians produce the medicines themselves, they were much, much cheaper. so it's not, you know, here you have a state industry actually producing cheap medicines. and they're cheap, also, in parts of canada, you know, for different reasons, because you can get them which is why so many americans buy medicines from canada. and many would buy medicines from cuba if there were no sanctions on that country.

but then let's move now to that part of the world which you and i both know well, south america, where the state actually has been intervening to try and lift the poor up from poverty. and huge attacks have been made on them in the western media for attempting to do that. and the presidents you talked to in "south of the border," one of them in particular was very interesting. he's the one who actually defaulted. he said we're not going to pay all the money we owe, can't pay, won't pay. we'll pay a tiny proportion of it. and it was totally popular, and finally the banking institutions had to accept it. but he made a different point which was very startling, oliver. and i now wish we'd made a lot more of that. i mean, we did it, but we should have gone on a bit more. and that's six.

>> president bush that day, that night. >> like you said -- [speaking spanish] >> war. he said that? [speaking spanish] >> was he suggesting that south america go to war? [speaking spanish]

>> yes. >> thank god. [applause] >> the late president of argentina died not long after that film was made. but in some ways he was incredibly cogent and very intelligent. but it is astonishing that bush actually said this. >> that's what the donald sutherland character says in the jfk movie, the organizing principle of society is war. it seems that our system has been based in it since world war ii, increasingly since the

eisenhower regime. >> eisenhower actually warned about it --? >> he warned about it, but he did the most to let it grow. >> yeah. but it doesn't work. i mean, it's not accurate because the united states has now been involved in two large wars spending billions and billions of dollars on the war in iraq and the occupation of iraq and billions on the war in afghanistan and billions on the bases, military bases in the arab world, and yet it doesn't seem to be helping the economy. so it's quite an interesting contradiction that is growing up. and thousand you have voices -- now you have voices, ron paul for one. but even other voices are being raised saying the wars are costing us too much, they're not actually keeping the economy going. so that's an interesting shift from that, and i think possibly because the country has been largely apart from the military side of it has been

de-industrialized, oliver. you know, a lot of stuff brought from china, india, the far east, so the war can't help the american economy be as they could. i mean, you know, when 9/11 happened, american capability was so weakened that the chinese had to be commissioned to produce hundreds of millions of stars and stripes. they couldn't be produced in the united states itself. it was quite symbolic. when you need the flag to go to china, how many could you produce and how soon? but that was symbolic of what is happening to the, to the -- >> american economy. >> but your feeling, i mean, you countries. >> venezuela, bolivia, ec what daughter, the andes are

>> the economic development of that region took a negative hit from the reagan era. it was called washington consensus, neoliberalism, and since 2000 a series of elections, democratic elections although it's not reported as relations against these policies, and what's developed in the region is a new consensus where the united states is no longer what it was. we have seven, eight bases in colombia. this is our toe hold. we have a south american command which has aggravated the brazilians as well as most of the south americans. there's been actions from colombia in the old colombia under the old president president against ecuador. you know the history as well as i do, better probably, and it's just we're seeing this great growth of confidence in this area. lula played a huge role as did chavez. but the reporting in this country is of another nature. >> yeah.

>> and that's why it drew me down there to make this documentary, "south of the border," because we're not getting the straight story. and i think americans deserve better news. mark weiss worked with me at the center of economic policy and research. he's doing accurate analysis of the economies of south america. that news doesn't make it into the mainstream press here. >> well, then related to that is the countries which are in a mess where you have virtually no reforms at all. one, of course, is mexico, the neighbor to the south where you now have a virtual breakdown of society. and economy. heavily dependent on drugs which raises the question. of i mean, to be fair ron paul, again, raised this question of legalizing drugs. >> i'm sorry? >> legalizing -- >> yes. we agree on that. >> you agree on that too.

[applause] >> well, that is a free market, actually. >> well, maybe -- >> it is a free market. and it's, i think it's correct because in countries where they have legalized at least soft drugs like holland where you can walk into a shop or a café and buy your favorite weed, you know, you can sniff it like you sniff a glass of wine before you drink it. and there the middlemen and street crime on the drug issue for this has gone right down. the statistics are very interesting. >> yeah. >> and so the big lobby -- which is the big lobby against legalizing drugs in this country, do you think? why don't they want to do it? because -- >> you have the prison guard system and the unions and the people who benefit from the drug war which is the dea which has grown into $100 billion-plus

war. this is, every war develops, you call it a war, the budget -- they throw money at it. they change the name of it about ten years later, they call it the war on terrorism or the war on drugs becomes the war on terrorism in a strange way, doesn't it? they merge. >> the situation according to virtually every report and books being published in mexico is now totally out of control. and it's, you know, it obviously given the border and given the trade with the united states in this field, it is affecting the -- >> actually nafta did a lot more to hurt -- >> yeah. >> 40,000 dead. we agree the drug war has been bloody, but the and a nafta agrt that clinton signed in '92 was it? >> yeah. >> really did the most to upset the balance of mexican agriculture and a lot of the trade. and it forced people into these ghettos where they made more money, but they just made enough

to survive to send a little -- so it's actually a very redundant situation where you create work, but the work is such that it's slave labor. >> let's come down to just, you know, your own -- >> i mean, the greatest boon to the mexican economy is remissions from the united states. it's, apparently, one of the biggest adjustments is the mexican population coming north and sending money back there. it's actually the biggest anti-poverty bill in the history of the world, i think. it outdoes johnson's war on poverty. >> this is true. and migrants, you know, especially first and is second generation migrants do this all over the world. send monies back to their countries from where they've come. it's had a huge impact in indian and pakistan, britain, west indians from the caribbean islands -- around the world.

>> yeah. um, but, oliver, just let's get personal for a bit. i mean, how did your own interest in history develop, and when did it develop? >> uh-huh. i think it's a great story, you know? it's a story told that's the biggest example we have of actual things that happened, fates, journeys. we learn so much from it. i always loved it, and it was well taught to me. but as i grew up i felt like american history was, had been taught in an ethnocentric way the world very much of what obama said in his nobel prize speech, and i believe that. but i grew out of that, and as i learning american history this way, i was disappointed. and i felt it was my time to actually, as much criticized as i've been for distorting

history, i really wanted to go further, get my feet wet and planted. so i not only called you, but i started to work with a professor of nuclear studies at american university in washington, d.c., and we're completing this ten-hour series. and he's, with me, has written a book covering this, substantiating what we've done in the television series which is coming out, i hope, in may of this year from showtime. but i think it's something i can leave behind to my children. i think it's the most ambitious thing i've ever done. >> i mean, what i've seen of it, it certainly is. i mean, when i saw the rough cut you sent me on the episode on wallace, i mean, that was quite astonishing that in order to -- >> george wallace. there might be some confusion. >> wallace was the vice president under roosevelt for three terms, and this was the

fourth term. and roosevelt was dying. and wallace was considered too left wing, too progressive to be allowed to become president if roosevelt died. and so they organized to prevent him being nominated at the democratic party convention. and all sorts of tricks were played. i mean, a guy who had, it seemed, a majority to be elected, they delayed the convention by one day. because the chicago democratic ap apparatus -- not the most wholesome in the world -- [laughter] switched off the lights, cut off the electricity to the democratic party convention so they had to delay it, and that night they spent bribing, browbeating delegates which is shown very incredibly. i mean, i was taken aback. i had no idea that they'd gone to that extent in order to

subvert the will of delegates and the convention. and, you know, we still don't know everything they said to these dell gates -- delegates or what intelligence agencies were used to try and prevent wallace from becoming roosevelt's successor. he would have been president. instead of truman. what difference that would have made we still tonight though, but judging -- we still don't know, but judging on his policies on certain things he was well to the left of most democrats including roosevelt himself. so they were very nervous. and this was all known to the generation that was around during the second world war. it's barely talked about today, this particular episode. in history. when did you discover the -- >> it was peter who made me aware of it. yeah. he'd studied henry wall lace all his life. it was a movie unto itself. he was mr. smith goes to washington. he was naive, he was a jimmy

stuart quality, he didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't hang out with old decisions, he used to study foreign languages and stuff like that. but he was an interesting, beautiful man. and, actually, he was a very successful capitalist -- >> thank you. [laughter] >> and an enlightened one, agricultural expert. and it actually came down to one night in july of 1944. we document that pretty accurately. pretty scary moment when, you know, he was about nine seconds away from being nominated when they cut the lights, as you say, and cut the power. the world would have been a different place. on such events turns history, right? that's the way these things happen. the difference between truman and wallace was night and day. truman has a very inflated reputation in this country, and we go after truman, and i think in a very fair way. we question so many of the

things that, the mythology around harry truman as the common man. see him more as the idiot man. [laughter] >> when is the untold history going to hit the screens? >> actually the lowest poll rate -- he had the lowest poll president since george bush jr. i'm sorry, what'd you -- [laughter] he had that bush quality, that touch. [laughter] what were you saying? >> we haven't really talked about the current president largely because you haven't yet made a movie about him. [laughter] but that can wait, i suppose. be but, i mean, i was in the united states during the big election campaign, and i remember seeing young people so infused and energized by that campaign. and then i was here, you know,

afterwards and the disappointment was palpable. i mean, people felt it. they felt let down, they felt betrayed. of course, hard core supporters of obama say that, well, he never promised what these people wanted, and that's true, to be fair. but he did excite them. though when you think back on it, you know, some of the slogans were a bit vapid and sort of change we can believe in, of course, can mean anything. it can mean no change at all. [laughter] and various other things. yes, we can. but, you know, then, yes, we can what? [laughter] but the young people were excited because he's an intent guy, you know? intelligent, galvanizing, moving people. and yet when he becomes president, we see essentially a

continuity with his predecessor. i mean, bush was in india last year, and bush was asked by indian journalists in delhi how do you rate your successor? he said, i rate him very highly, i agree with everything that he's doing. [laughter] in his bush way, he just came out and said that. but i think there is, of course -- >> did he go to india? >> they love him in india, bush. he was invited by the times of of india to one of their -- >> he was not able to go to switzerland because of the indictment that he would be facing there. >> yeah. >> from the icc. i think he's cautious in his foreign travel. >> well, he's careful where he goes. because, you know, in some countries the war crimes lawyers are quite tough-minded. and it would be very embarrassing if, for the united states if they dieted him. so so i think -- indicted him.

so i think he gets legal advice before he travels. but india, of course, poses no problem at all on this front. >> said like a true pakistani. [laughter] >> no. i mean, pakistan would not pose a problem on this front either, actually, even though we've got quite a -- [inaudible] chief justice at the moment who's giving the army and the government a hard time, but i don't think they would have gone for him. in any event, what is your take on obama? [laughter] yes, oliver, your take on obama. >> no, i'm very, i'm very, very disappointed. i voted for him on the basis of his iraq vote. i met him a few times. you wrote a book about it, so you know -- you studied the chicago roots. i didn't. i believed in him. i had no choice because of bush.

>> yeah. >> it was a nightmare. and mccain would have been a worse nightmare. on that basis, you accept -- >> yeah. >> it's the continuation of the war on terror that has most bothered me, not the economy. a country. this is serious, the surveillance state has continued and grown larger because he's the wolf in sheep's clothing. he's been able to sell this. now, what i thought was a temporary aberration of eight years has become a permanent rights, your -- you're not a citizen, but i do feel i live in fear. if a president has the authority to detain me or even have me assassinated on the basis of his own judgment and we're willing to give him that right, then i'm in america on a

waiver. >> it's -- >> i find it very scary. >> it is. and, i mean, it's quite interesting that even during the american civil war that people who were involved in the conspiracy to kill lincoln weren't given a trial. >> yeah. the indefinite detention. and you mentioned -- you didn't mention the mdaa which puts us on military footing. you know, the military can come in on the president's action and enemy combatant situation. it could be a riot, it could be a protest, it could be your involvement with a business organization. for example, they've gotten -- i couldn't believe he kept going with the business organizations. he's got every bank against wikileaks, he's been the worst president on whistleblowers ever, worse than wilson. >> yeah. >> wilson, four or five indictments under the espionage act. this guy has a serious problem with whistle blowers who, by the

way, keep the government straight. by which i mean the tom drake case, the jessica -- i forgot her name, the beautiful defense lawyer at the justice department who tried to defend the rights of john walker lynn was not allowed to. she found -- there's so many cases of government malfeasance that have been protected by the concept of what is security, national security. it's frightening. >> and from that it's a very easy transition to seven, national security. >> oklahoma terrorists didn't have anthrax or nukes. i swear, beginning to sound like neville chamberlain. >> don't patronize me, you save that for your speeches at -- >> you think, really, you think with all your diplomatic bullshit that you can appease islamic fascists who are as nuts

as hitler? want to know what i see, mr. president? i see a world or where in about 25 years america's reserves are gone. done. demand is up 30, 40%, and we have two oceans blocking us from the world reserves. you think we're going to have allies then? we're at 5% of the world's population. we use 25 president of its -- 25% of its energy. do you think russia and china are going to help us out when they need those resources themselves? 80 president -- 80% of the world's energy reserves are right here in eurasia where the prize ultimately lies; oil, gas, water. iraq alone, 10% of the world's reserves. 60 of 80 oil fields --

>> and another 100 billion gallons in the western desert. they're floating in a sea of oil. >> we have bases in 120 countries all over the world. we include iraq, look what happens. >> we are at the fertile choke point of civilization. the tie depress euphrates, we drain the swamp like don says, we rebuild it. we develop its resources to the maximum. they own it, we run it. pipelines, seal atlanta, their resources finance the reconstruction. >> it's a power that won't be broken in our lifetime if we stick to the plan. >> so what is our real exit strategy on iraq, dick? >> there is no exit. we stay.

>> spoken like a true oilman. >> you were part of the plan, colin, back in the '90s. you backed our weaponry space, cyber, electronic. you agreed we would never allow another military economic rival against us again -- >> turning these weapons loose on terrorists is like trying to hit a gnat in the ass with an elephant war. we invoke the right to use nukes whenever we see fit, and i guarantee you we will be in a forever war, everywhere, three, four wars at a time. new world order, world gone mad. there's got to be some global cooperation here. >> well, no one's against cooperation, colin, you know that. we're calling the shots. >> which gets us back to reality. lest we forget, where do you see a lack of american presence? right in the heart of it all. what's missing? iran.

the mother load, third largest oil reserve in the world. 40% of the world's oil. goes right through here, the strait of hormuz. control l iran, control eurasia, control the world. empire. real empire. nobody will fuck with us again. >> it's big. big thoughts. you go out here, and you scare people when you talk like that. working joe's not thinking about oil. he's talking 9/11 terrorists, wmds, he's talking freedom and democracy. talking axis of evil. >> sir, you have the touch, not i.

>> you know, when i was coming up, it was a dangerous world. but we knew exactly who the "they" were, and it was us versus them, and it was clear who "them" was. but today we're not so sure who the "they" are, but we know they're there. i'm not going to negotiate with myself. of i'm a gut player, always have been. and i'm just so bone tired of this saddam. he's always misunderestimated me, and i don't want our soldiers invading that god awful heat, we have got to get this war going before summer. >> you say go now, sir, and tommy can start mobilizing. we could 300,000 troops in the gulf by early january without creating a stir. >> i want you to keep a tight record on it. >> for the record, sir, this is totally against the spirit of the u.n. resolution. we agreed with our allies let the u.n. do it job. >> déjà vu all over again.

>> do you know what a burnt card is? >> no, sir. >> someday i've got to teach you how to play texas hold 'em. in the end, final decision is mine. >> yes, sir. >> are you going to be with us on this, colin? be right? >> i'm with you, sir. >> good. all right, gentlemen. it was a great meeting. best yet. let's close this out. ♪ ♪ [applause] >> i mean, it still horrifies me when i think what happened in iraq which, to be honest, the

euro american citizens have not grasped what has happened. i mean, a million iraqis died. this, even this current government says there are five million orphans in iraq. two million wounded. the entire social infrastructure of that country destroyed. clerical parties put into power by the united states who have taken away rights from iraqi women which they had enjoyed before. iraq was the most educated country in the middle east in terms of men and women with. finished, my any toe, kaput. and then obama, announcing a troop withdrawal, says it was a noble mission.

that is not the way it's seen in the middle east, you know, even by people who are very hostile to saddam, including some of his victims who say what they did to us was horrific, absolutely horrific, but the business, the business goes on, and now they're talking about war against iran. what do you think, oliver? do you think they're going to go to war against iran? >> oh, yes, i think so. i think it will be an election issue if he's in trouble. and romney's, i mean, yeah, romney is coming on with, you know, who's going to be more patriotic, who's going to be the stronger, the usual american muscle. and i think that iran is going to be aiming where it's already assassinating the scientists, or israel is, and we're supporting israel. and this is a very dangerous time. the nuclear issue, the same people are out there, all bright. even the iaea which is the

international atomic energy -- had been infiltrated by us with a japanese fellow. we put this guy in, and he's suspect because of his commitments to us. the egyptian fella was an honest man. >> yeah. >> was out. and this is a very dangerous situation. and israel is providing a lot of the information against iran which makes it like the wmd information suspect. but what we're seeing is it can be sold to the american public on a wide basis. television works. you keep mentioning iran as the bad guy. the bad guy, it just sinks into a consciousness. so this is, it's a political stake. i always think obama is a politician, as you say, and i think he's going to run on whatever gets him elected the same way he'll never recognize cuba because he has to win in florida. ..

these nuclear reactors are not standing in the in one place to be destroyed. they're all over the country including one very close to the holy city of the iranians. and if the israelis are allowed to go on a bombing raid, a very great provocation. what will they do?ayayayayay the european union joins command

so it's a collective bombingayaq raid.iqayu3ay to depression and war. so i think there will fight back. the effect of what will be to strengthen the clerical regime. enormously for the country to feel they're under attack. and then what did they do? then take off the gloves afghanistan, take off the gloves and a rock, take off the gloves in lebanon or their support and make it a war on three or four different fronts. it is not even a big secret. they talk about it if they read what the iranians were saying, how they will respond. poe's the straits of hormuz, blockade them, gunships and stop them been functioning so that the oil flow to the west cuts down. that's not the sort of minor threat. knowing this the pentagon does not want to get into it.

the politicians are pushing on a particular friend, and the pressure here is coming down from israel. it has to be said because the 110 of their monopoly to be violated. it is a very tricky one. they haven't quite made up their mind on tnhat. >> a military man.c we saw him go back to bush senior. the intelligence about the soviet union. so this.c : -- the cia is running this deal. there was some domestic dissidents.

it was interesting. went after it.fw using drone is domestically for police surveillance in the country. but the issue is no one quite believe the pentagon on anything because the budget is going to take us from near. if they build -- to pull out combat troops. a lot of military to contractors working there. the consortium's, often the u.s., out of u.s. oil interests. so we have our finger. you want to control that area, as it says in the movie. to get messy. doesn't play ball with us, them or putting pressure on china as it is. all over the south china -- south china sea. we put our military fleet there. we could have two days of war

with iran and china. it is a very serious. this is a question which we have to think about very carefully in washington. >> you want to pay more taxes to the liberal a stub is went. you see, we feed them, we give them money. that is the central problem. liberal republican watchman to med makes no difference at this point. the liberals a been making more worse. >> a war would have a huge impact on the chinese economy because the chinese to sign a 30 year trade dealing. and if there is a war of the flow of gas and oil will stop. and if the chinese economy goes into a depression then it really is doomsday.

interdependence the trend chinese and the american economy . it's a dangerous thing, that's what and sank. if there is no one telling the administration that this is an absolute disaster if you go to war in a run, it's quite frank, but you think that he convinced. less convinced. he will do anything to get elected. >> up one point he did say i do want to be a 1-term presidents if necessary. i will stand for my own principles. >> that is a joke. >> let's go to of discussing the origins of foul iran became a

so-called problem stay. it book tv. >> first and he was elected he said it was not going to remain under the control of the british at that point the netting states decided to take the british, the cia, the toppling of the regime, bringing the ax to around to me he had fled. he mobilized religious people in iran. enemy is communism, and everything we use against enemy is justified. all attempts by nationalist leaders to break away from the american embrace purely to defend the country and to take rights away from the american corporations to favor poor people in these countries, seen

as a communist outrage, topple them, get rid of them, and if it means linking up with the worst elements in south america or iran or a share, we will do it. the first real leader to emerge from the arab world who had a dream of unifying that whole world again, of world that would be divided by imperialism and colonialism that used to be one world. the kid walk from jerusalem to cairo, carrots, come on to damascus. a world of cities. and when the british empire backed by the french as a subsidiary decided to fight that to control artificial boundary lines to create boundaries they

then laid the basis essentially for what we now know as the middle east. nestle was determined to reverse the process and create an arab nation. >> some nothing changes. >> in different ways. the empire. empire. who is going to change it? you guys are. you know, i mean, the changes that will have to come, i think, there is no way the united states can ever be defeated militarily. rather than be defeated militarily now they will destroy . the only hope to mile with say this, and i mean it, is in people in the ad states. new generations to all generations, not everyone can make movies.

but, you know, things have to be done to us do something. i don't accept this view that the american empire is on the economic decline, but it is not on the ideological or military decline of all. there will use force and not politics to keep control. if they have to a less they're is a movement, and that is, quite frankly, just said just now, parting. the nuance differences, the cultural issues to my gay-rights to offer instance. fiercely, but on the major issues, no real essences, and

that is extremely frightening, because that affects the functioning of democracy. if we don't have any alternatives, you know, however limited, if that alternative doesn't exist and what is the point of democracy? what happens to democracy? i called many american leaders in texas, really have. the chinese have got it just about right. hinnies democracy? you have never been tempted to make a film about china. you're from several international. >> a hear a lot of people, this is a new threat they say. i disagree. the chinese have come along. very economic the powerful. there economy will implode.

they have such leverage over us at this point. but the people of account, the wall street types talk about china as the next challenge for the netting states. they can handle, they can keep the oil flowing in the gas. a really good position in the near east, but china is a big issue. i do think that china, you have tillich's history. history is crucial. i'm not talking about tibet, which is the big issue. they have no history of expansion or aggression outside their interest in south china and north china. the russians have no history of aggression outside a limited

land mass. the united states, british or french, the ottoman empire have a history of that. so you go by history, is not the threat that we may get out to be the chinese to be comparable, smart, practical, the deal. they're not riddled by an ideology. in our time, who was to make money, they want to succeed, and they want @booktv they do a pretty good job of stimulating or creating in continuing their own power. they bring up young contras all the time. i reach out to castro about that as to why, you know, you could not hand over the power and take the economic chinese model after the soviets. he said, he implied that could have gone another way. the chinese model had worked. the world will go on. empire is changed.

there was a roman might. >> yes, but the romans, you know, never really realize that out there in the distance there was china. >> they thought the middle east. >> another to read the book and the roman empire, a fascinating story about how the senate betrayed the people, the oligarchs of roman angeles's there was much more a liberation , a person for the populist. but he made the point, you know, that if he can live very well in the outer reaches of the empire. seven under a hundred. if you aren't a slave, right. at constantinople, what did go on.