books at the university of southern california. for a complete list of upcoming book fairs and festivals visit booktv.org and click on the book tv tab at the top of the page. also, please let us know about book fairs and festivals in your area, and we will add them to our list. >> next, recounting the congressional campaign and election between james madison and james monroe in 1789 for virginia's fifth district. the only time to future presidents ran against each other for congressional seat. it is about an hour. book tv ..

>> i regret to inform you that was last night. [laughter] you know, for as important as the this project has become to my life, i can says scarcely remember the first time i learned about this historic congressional race in 1739. but what i do remember is reading about it in a book, and it was treated with the typical one or two sentences that you would see about this congressional race. and i thought to myself, way to bury the lead. all of a sudden we're in this race between two future presidents, james madison, james monroe, they're debating the most important issues we've ever talked about as a country, whether we should have a bill of rights, what kind of union we should, and all of a sudden you're on the next page, and they're in the first congress. so i decided i would read

everything i could about this 1789 election. and when i found no one had ever written anything about it before, i decided i was going to tell this story. the book "founding rivals" opens at the the inauguration of george washington. when he took the oath of office, two of the 13 states were outside the union, north carolina and rhode island did not ratify the constitution because of their concern that it was missing a bill of rights, a guarantee of fundamental liberties. this was common for the anti-federalists throughout the continent. the common denominator or among the anti-federalists, of which james monroe was one, was that they opposed the constitution. some of them genuinely believed you could not have a union that covered all these different and diverse spaces. they believed perhaps regional confederacies, but they didn't think any government could ever be suit or bl for this entire -- suitable for this entire

continent. his objection to the constitution was centered around its missing a bill of rights. while washington took the oath of office, two states -- new york and virginia -- were agitating for a new constitutional convention. in the words of james madison and george washington, they were terrified at this prospect. they believed it would be infiltrated by enemies of the new government and that the constitution would be scrapped and done away with and that our union would be fractured, every, ever to -- never, ever to come together again. the book then dose into the french and indian war which was fought in the new world and in europe, maybe perhaps the first true world war we've ever had between the french, the english and their allies. as a result, the english expelled their opponents from the continent, but as a consequence what they did was remove a check that kept their colonists in terror. three there the threat to have french -- free from the threat of the french, the american

colonists were not so reliant on great britain. what followed was a rising cycle of taxation, resistance followed by oppression, past the point of no return where with we ended up in a revolution against great britain. both madison and monroe played important roles this the revolution. james monroe was a student at the college of william and mary when hostilities began. as a student, he wasn't excited by latin or grammar, he was out drilling on the college green at william and mary with his compatriots. the governor of virginia, lord dunmore, the royal appointee, seized the gun powder of the militia in town. nobody bought his excuse which was that he was fearing a slave revolt. when that ratcheted up hostilities to the point where james monroe and his compatriots raided the governor's mansion which is still there today the you've ever been to colonial williamsburg. monroe was then sent north to new york to join with george

washington's army, and he would serve with washington in many theaters of the war. places like valley forge, germantown, the philadelphia campaign and most importantly, the battle of trenton. we all know this famous portrait of george washington crossing the delaware and going over to face the hessians who were not expecting it. monroe led a vanguard of men across the kiver. their job was to secure the street heading into town so no one would be able to alert the british and their allies. it was christmas, there had been some revelry, they thought that the hostilities had ceased for the season, and they were unprepared for the attack. in the process james monroe and his men alerted a doctor by the name of liker. he started cursing at them because he thought they were british. when he realized they were patriots, he told them, i, too, am a patriot, and it seems something is going to happen tomorrow, and i'm going to go

with you because i may be able to save some poor soul. that turned out to be james monroe, the future president of the united states. during a critical moment of the battle, james monroe charged the cannons, was struck down by a bullet and would have bled out right there had it not been for the doctor. this was one of two incidents in the book where james monroe narrowly escapes death. one of the things i focus on in "founding rivals" is how seemingly small and minor and unremitted events conspire to make great events happen on the stage of history. james madison served in the u.s. congress. when he arrived in congress, he found an absolutely ruinous state of affairs. i know it's nothing like you could imagine today -- [laughter] but the congress had already taken an enormous, crippling national debt. when congress had exhausted it revenue and exhausted its sources of credit, they simply started printing money and giving it out to people.

[laughter] thank goodness our leaders today are too wise to do this. [laughter] i think it's really telling that madison served on something called the board of admiralty. this was the committee that ran the naval affairs of the united states during the war. one of the first things they do is to deny a three-month-old request for a sea captain for bread and flour. it was not that this request was unreasonable per se, it was simply that they had no bread or flour or means to procure it to give them. they did send him a note, however, telling him to keep up the good work. an 1-gun boat named the saratoga was sitting in the dock for a want of simple riggings. the trumble, with 120 men on it, ready to go to sea and fight the british was waiting on just a few if more cannon and a little bit more food before it could be deployed. and perhaps worst of all, the board of admiralty had to deal with several common criminals breaking into a warehouse and stealing all but a few bolts of

canvas. perhaps they were inspired by george washington's daring christmas raid because one christmas night they broke in, they stole the canvas. congress had directed them to distribute this canvas to the places where it was needed, the orders weren't heeded, and the letters to the board of admiralty are actually pretty humorous if it weren't so serious. congress wrote back saying, well, that's nice, but we just want our canvas back. so madison and monroe find each other in november of 1784, and they begin a lifelong correspondence that'll stretch over five decades. and by this point madison was back in the virginia legislature, and monroe had gone to congress and dealt with many of the same frustrations that madison had. talking about the articles of confederation. in 1777 the continental congress put together a plan to try to unify the state. before that the continental congress basically existed to air grievances against great

britain. now they had to conduct a war against the most powerful country in the world. so in 1777 they sent the articles of confederation to the state. the letter that accompanied it almost sounds like an apology and with good reason. it said this was the best that could be adapted to the circumstances of all. not very promising. the articles, under the articles of confederation, the hapless league of friendships was unable to raise revenue on its own, unable to raise troops on its own. so even after the war the european powers would punish our merchants, punish our producers, hit our producers with heavy taxes and tariffs because the national government had no capacity to create a revenue, a trade policy. they were able to play the 13 states against each other. if 12 states would have responded in kind to great britain, at least one state would look around and say, you know what? we're going to lower our tariffs

and have all these british goods come in through our states. so it was impossible for congress to do anything. it was totally unequal to the task. the idea of some sort of north american union started with the albany congress. that was benjamin franklin's idea, and it was not created with the idea of independence in mind, it was created in response to the fears generated by the french and indian war. and it was to be a body that could coordinate the response to the impending war. this was attended by 17 delegates from seven colonies and one lobbyist. and the meeting broke up inconclusively, but that general framework was later adopted into our articles of confederation. now, the national government was so weak at one point it was completely laid low by the greedy sheriff of chester county, pennsylvania. just to give you an idea of how weak the government was, george washington issued a passport to the british to bring in supplies to feed and clothe their prisoners of war.

so they're bringing the wagons in to go to the prisoner of war camps, and the sheriff of chester county stops them and says, you know what? under the pretense of saying that they brought in too much and planning to sell it on the black market, he seized all of their merchandise, and congress was powerless to stand up to the greedy sheriff of chester county. one county sheriff standing up to the national government of the united states. totally, totally unequipped to govern a country like ours. at one point congress has to deal with a mutiny. with no revenue to pay soldiers, the soldiers lose their patience, and as the war comes to a conclusion, they're not feeling any better about their chances of getting paid. once the hostilities are done, they weren't very optimistic about what might happen. o they went to philadelphia, a group of soldiers went to philadelphia, and they're pointing guns in the windows of congress, and they're menacing members of congress, and congress is inside trying to figure out what to do. [laughter] and all they can do is appeal to the governor of pennsylvania who

tells them, hey, it's not my problem. just one of the reasons philadelphia lost the capitol and would only get it back for a temporary period under the new government. john dickenson, the golf, wasn't -- the governor, wasn't willing to help them out. and so they decided they would flee to princeton, new jersey, and they reconvened in james madison's old dorm at princeton. [laughter] one of the most important issues that both madison and monroe had to deal with during their time both in the virginia legislature and in congress is the question of the mississippi. the spanish were of a belief because they controlled new orleans and the port of new orleans that they were entitled to the mississippi river. now, james madison pointed out that under the international law that existed at the time that free and peaceful people could move across international boundaries without impunity. so why should the american people who were not at war with spain be more restricted than in any other place. and be imagine what losing the

mississippi would have done to the united states, the westward expansion, the important ports of entry that we have, the growth of the american west. it's unimaginable had we given it to spain, we probably never would have gotten it back. but there was a northern confederacy led by john jay who was the minister to spain and be at different times during this debate the foreign affairs minister for the congress under the articles of confederation. and john jay thought as follows. he thought, he was a northerner, mississippi river was a far-off place. who had ever heard of it? who uses it? who needs this far-off river? we're going to risk a war we can't win for a river that we can't use. so he was going to try to give this river away to the spanish. and really this gets at the heart of the problem, the continental congress and the congress under the articles of confederation had no capacity to bring together the military might of the nation. and if it had, the spanish would have never dared to provoke us into a war. but it's the quick thinking of

madison and monroe and founding rivals that prevents the mississippi from being lost to the united states forever. well, we all know about the problems of congress under the articles of confederation. madison and monroe worked very, very hard to try to offer them, they tried to do two measures principally. number one, to pass an inpost so that trade that comes into the united states could be taxed, and the national government would have a steady source of revenue and be able to stand on its feet and pay its debts, particularly its war debts for the brave soldiers who won our revolution and never passed. they never passed the requisite 13 states. it had to be man unanimous. the second thing they had to do was regulate trade policy across the continent. we've already talked a little bit about that. because the european powers were belligerent towards united states merchants and producers, and they wanted congress to be able to respond in kind. another serious issue, there are 13 states, at least 13 different

forms of currency used, at least 13 different standards for weights and measures. currency was subject to dramatic fluctuation, and the courts, there was no national judiciary. so if you were a new yorker trying to buy something in virginia, you can't know what you were buying, you didn't know what you were paying for it, and you would be sure to be hometowned if deal went south and you had to file a lawsuit. so they were trying to unleash this economic engine to create not only a military union, but also an economic one. and indeed, something that has allowed us to be the most prosperous country in the history of the world. but the states wouldn't have it. and so what they tried to do was to create a convention. and it's the virginia legislature that is the first to call for some sort of national convention of the states to look at amending the articles of confederation. james madison gives this off to john tyler, the father of the future president, to pass. james madison is a member of congress, former member of congress was suspected of having

gone federal. and john tyler, who'd never served this congress, had more credibility to call for this new national convention. so that's what happened. unfortunately, when the delegates met in annapolis, maryland, the states didn't send the best people that they had. some states didn't send anybody. nobody sent their full delegation. and so they meet for a few days in mann's tavern and decide, you know, the best we can do is to write up a long letter of all the problems we see with the confederation, distribute it to the states and agree to meet in philadelphia may next. well, that gathering, we all know, is the constitutional convention. james madison goes there as a delegate, james monroe does not. it's there that madison earns his soak ri cay as the father of the constitution. once again, he uses someone else to introduce his policies which is something he always did throughout his career if he thought it was more likely to succeed coming from somebody else other than him. imagine having leaders like that today who don't care about who

gets the credit, but they care about getting results for america. well, that was james madison. and so he has edmund randolph who's the governor of virginia introduce the virginia, what's called the virginia plan. it's the first substantive debate of the constitutional convention, and it is the basic framework for our government today. the executive and the two branches of the legislature and the judiciary and all of the characteristics and all of the powers that we associate with our national government today. there are some serious fights in the constitutional convention, both sides nearly walk out at different points. the biggest issue that they have to contend with is actually one of representation. in the congress of the confederation, every state had one vote. the bigger states got to send a bigger delegation, but all that delegation could do was cast one vote at the end of the day. virginia has over 700,000 people, and delaware has less than 50. and the virginians, not surprisingly, didn't understand why someone in delaware had a right to so much more representation. so this is a big problem. the southern states -- not the

southern states, the smaller states will not yield on this point, so it's a question of yielding to them in the spirit of accommodation or scrapping the whole enterprise and going back. fortunately, they did agree that the house of representatives would be based on population, and the senate would be based on equal representation among the states. from philadelphia comes the constitution, and i think in history books we tend to bloses over this period -- gloss over this period in history. and it goes straight from the constitutional convention in philadelphia to george washington taking the oath on the balcony of federal hall. but really what tran spires in between is a nearly two-year knockdown, drag-out fight over whether to ratify the constitution. each state elects a constitution to sit -- constitutional convention to sit in judgment of the constitution of philadelphia. i focus two chapters of this book on the virginia ratification convention as the largest, most culturally important, most commercially important state in the country,

it is critical that virginia ratifies the constitution. the anti-federalists, the opponents of the constitution, tried a gambit that completely backfired on them. they decide they're going to hold the ratification debate in june. what they figured is some states would approve it, some states wouldn't, and there would be virginia to take them and broker some sort of compromise. that was what they thought was going to happen. the problem was they created a third party in the virginia constitutional convention. not anti-federalist, not federalist, but people who were so concerned about preserving the union that they were able to overcome their objections to that document and vote for ratification. none was more important than edmund randolph. randolph was one of only several delegates in philadelphia to refuse to sign the constitution. and there's a lot of suspension around what he's going to say when he first stands up in richmond in the virginia ratification convention and what side he's going to come down on. and he says, you know, these objections to the constitution haven't changed.

my principles, my positions on this haven't changed. i have my doubts. but at this point seven states have ratified the constitution, eight states had ratified the constitution, excuse me, and i'm not going to be the one to separate us from our sister states. and so at the end of the day there's a lot of debate. it's fascinating, some of the leading minds in american history, patrick henry leading the anti-federalists along with james monroe who decides that despite his frustrations with the current government, this constitution was too potentially dangerous. it was missing the bill of rights, he couldn't get behind it. he could get behind something that increased the powers of congress specifically over revenue and trade, but there had to be a bill of rights. so he reluctantly comes out, but comes out full force against the constitution. george mason's also in the constitutional convention, richard henry lee, some of the most important people in american history are in this room in richmond. at the end of the day, the anti-federalists try a gambit. they said why don't we stop what

we're doing here, recommend some amendments to the other states and pick it up later. well, this would have had the effect of completely ending the process. the momentum would have stopped there. the vote in new york was going to be so close that alexander hamilton kept writing madison saying all is lost if you don't pass this constitution in virginia. no pressure. but everything is lost. [laughter] and, in fact, new york only ratifies the constitution after more than a month's debate after virginia ratifies ask only then by three -- and only then by three votes. and only then because the federalists agree to this unanimous declaration they're going to call for a new constitutional convention unless and until there's a bill of rights that comes out of the first congress. so what the anti-federalists do is say, let's set this aside. that measure fails by 88-80 votes. just eight votes. james madison didn't even know the if he was going to participate in the virginia ratification convention.

indeed, if it'd been scheduled earlier, madison wouldn't have been able to make it. he was up in new york. and, in fact, he gives his first speech in a long career in public service, gives his first speech in support of his candidacy to be part of this ratification convention, and aren't we glad that he decided to participate? because the constitution gets out of there alive by eight votes. all seems inevitable to us today, but that's how close it was. well, following the virginia ratification convention is a legislative session that is dominated by patrick henry and his anti-federalist allies. a chapter my book called the terrible session, and if you are a federalist, that's exactly how you would have seen it. a nurple of things happen right off the bat. first of all, virginia calls for a new constitutional convention. second, patrick henry -- who could be very petty and personal in his politics -- took a supporter of james madison, came up with a pretense for him not to be eligible to be a legislator, and it was referred to the committee on privileges

and elections. the committee said of course he's eligible to be a legislator. that doesn't make any sense. of it was reported to the floor, said that he was eligible. patrick henry offered an amendment that was not eligible and invaded the constitution for a long, windy, ponderous speech. patrick henry thought it had an awful lot, so he was expelled from the virginia legislature. he wins a special election three days later, but this is what you were dealing with if you were an anti-federalist -- if you were a federalist, excuse me, in the virginia legislature. the leading federalists of virginia, people like john marshall and james madison, the people who had spoken out at the virginia ratification convention weren't part of the legislature. but patrick henry who commanded his majority with absolute, absolute obedience was able to get these measures think the virginia legislature. at the end of the session, james gordon who was james madison's

seat mate in the virginia ratification convention of orange county, went and sang, and his colleagues thought for all the world that he went insane from having to deal with the anti-federalist backlash in that legislature. enough to drive you crazy. two very important things happened in this session. first of all, this is back when under our original constitution the state legislatures elected senators. so james madison is offered up by the federalists as a senator, and patrick henry talks about rivulets of blood in the land, that there's going to be this great turmoil if we elect a federalist to congress, and he'll never, ever support your rights. and james madison loses the senate election to two anti-federalists by a narrow majority. patrick henry is not finished. you know, the issue of redistricting is on a lot of people's minds right now, perhaps no more so than here in arizona. the virginia legislature at this time perpetrated the first act of gerrymandering in our american history, and as one

other author points out, it is patrick henry's luck that the wopgs of virginia didn't think to call it henry handerring. what he did have was the results of the virginia ratification convention elections. two delegates were selected from every county. because of the late date of the virginia ratification convention, delegates were more or less on the record with their positions on the constitution. so he created a district for madison that was probably three to one anti-federalist to federalist. not a great start. a lot of madison's supporters asked him if he would consider run anything a different district -- running in a different district. the only district he probably could have lost in virginia was the one that was created by his enemies to defeat him. and they even passed something called the residency law which said, oh, by the way, you have to live in your congressional district for a year before you can run. targeted at one man. the federalists and anti-federalists on a party line

vote had a fight over whether to strike the rez deck si law -- residency law, and the federalists were outgunned, and they lost. so madison decides, you know, i don't want my election being called into question in the first congress. i don't want this to become an issue in a different district. the virginia legislature was one of the oldest institutions on the continent. it had a lot more credibility than this new constitution. the constitution says you only have to live in your state if you want to run for congress. there's a number of members live close enough to their districts that it's fine enough with their constituents. madison says he's going to fight in the district that he lives this and the district he's always lived in. so the anti-federalists start shopping around for a candidate to take on james madison, and reluctantly they're able to convince his friend, james monroe, to carry the anti-federalist banner. james monroe was a decorated combat veteran, former member of congress, member of the virginia legislature, extremely experienced and probably would

have stood out head and shoulders above any opponent other than his friend madison who also had a long tenure in office. when monroe gets into the race, though, however reluctantly, he gets into it full force. while monroe was in congress, he lost an election in virginia for the legislature by a mere four votes which his campaign manager kept writing him telling him, come back and campaign in person. and what happened was he ends up losing by four votes. i think if you work with politicians long enough, you realize that their losses are seared on to them like a hot iron, and monroe remembered what it was like to lose that race, and he was not going to lose this election from want of trying. so he was busy writing letters to important people in the district. then as now the candidates relied on local supporters in the various counties of the districts to give them advice about the lay of the land, important people to reach out to, when to come to the court day and meet with people. and that's what they did. james madison would -- or james

monroe would write these letters, they would go to one of his supporters in the county, and the supporter would distribute them to different people so they could know where james monroe stood on the issues. newspapers were a critical source of information at the time. some were called the historical antecedent to the anonymous blog commenter. they were anonymous essays. they were written in the newspapers. one of the enduring myths which i hope to dispel in "founding rivals" is that you hear it at every election, this is the nastiest campaign ever. [laughter] well, i challenge you, i challenge you to read about the election of james madison and james monroe which featured false and even negative communication. the anti-federalists, and i should be very clear, james monroe had no part of this. but his supporters said james madison has said that not a word of the constitution can be spared, and he will not get you your amendments. well, james madison realized, look, he represented the federalist opinion. he thought a bill of rights was dangerous.

he said we have a government of enumerated powers. if we didn't give the government, for instance, the right to regulate speech, why would we need a free speech government to prevent the government to do that? you might list some rights and forget others and thereby omit those rights to people, and it was premature. this is a vessel just launched, this new government, let's try it out, take it for a test drive and see whether or not we really need these amendments. james madison realized add a result of his contest with the federalists in the election of 1789 that there was a significant sentiment in the country, and these people would never, ever be satisfied until a bill of rights was passed and adopted. so in order to gain the confidence in his countrymen and this new constitutional government which he saw as the last, best chance for creating some sort of union that could work for the states, he acquiesced in the spirit of accommodation. he first announces his support

for a bill of rights as part of a campaign promise to a man by the name of george eve. george 'is the most prominent baptist minister in the fifth congressional district. the baptists and other religious minorities were a very important political group. they were created, like many political groups since time immemorial, because the government persecuted them. baptists were arrested in private residences for prayer as we were declaring all men are created equal. people were being arrested in church, people were being arrested for preaching the gospel, and these folks were extremely concerned about this new national government. in fact, there was a unanimous resolution among the baptists in the fifth congressional district that said that the constitution does not sufficiently protect our religious liberties. ..

madison said if i am elected and will support a bill of rights and amendment, and that for the freedom of religion. and during our really intense meeting where one of the generation gathered to decide who to endorse in the fifth congressional district he was able to pull of his letter and rabat the anti federalist virus or distorting his opinions for the benefit of rock. and these did great damage to their cause. so james madison and james monroe, i talked to some of the

things that were similar in this election to alexis today to be one of the things that we don't see enough of, the james madison , says a row, an extremely high level of civility toward one another in the course of the campaign. impact, the travel together, stay in the same hotel room, in days and long heated debates, one of those debates in a church that is still there in culpeper, virginia. the oldest church in the united states. listed there for hours in the freezing cold. in fact, madison of france back on his way back. referring to it as only war injury and regaled stories about the campaign. sir james madison and james monroe were both reporting to their mutual friend after the election that the french never abated. all they disagree passion, fl of over very important issues, there was a look -- they were civil to one another. there were always civil to one

another, and that is respected in the numerous debates and public appearances that they had throughout the fifth congressional district. james madison by coopting really takes the wind of the sales and is able to win the election by 336 votes. under a 200280. one of james madison biggest supporters regimental them that if this happened a fortnight sooner i think he would have lost, if he had not come back to virginia to campaign in person you definitely would have lost. so the consequences of the selection besides being interesting for future presidents for the first and last time american history, what is important? all, we already talked about the federal supposition to the bill of rights. in the first congress the federalists were a lopsided majorities. stena said the union, virginia and new yorker advocating for a new convention. the entire federal a subordinating up and down the continent in order to cause their state to call for new constitutional convention effectively putting an end.

only james madison seemed to appreciate the threat that was posed by the entire federal movement. so what he did, in the beginning of congress see announces, there are going to be a bill of rights considered this election, and a plan to introduce them, and we are going to consider them. so nixon goes to china moment where only the strong anti-communist could have gone to that country and open it up to the west, james madison is able to bring the federal as majority over to his side and pass the bill of rights and is remarked among his many supporters in virginia that the anti seven new hero. it was an unlikely hero, gen is madison, and it was because of the election that the bill of rights passed and the union was cemented command every year earlier today in the freest and most prosperous to raise tension in the history of the world, and this is a very unpromising contact, try to remember, if you will, a crippling national debt, government that was intensely paralyzed of partisanship, a government that seemed wholly inadequate, leeches that seemed

inadequate. i know you can't imagine it to arrive? impossible to think about. and one of my favorite quotes, history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes. [laughter] madison and monroe find themselves trying to make this work against the most on a favorable context that i think would be anybody, but every generation in american history has faced challenges, the first generation did, and every subsequent generation did, whether that be pestilence or war or economic calamity or all three, the trifecta, but these generation rose to the occasion and passed on to that generation , great american tradition, a country of a better, stronger, freer, and more prosperous than the one before. we are in trouble right now as a country, but an optimistic note. how a previous generation rose for many of the same challenges we face today and how we as a

nation cannot afford. we have to get out of this mess. we have to work together to do it. the final line of the book, which i know is not something you hear very often is remembered. what i would want everyone to do his armor and the past when things looked uncertain or when things look difficult america always has risen to the occasion. i hope the you have some optimism about the way we are going. we will be happy to take questions. [applause] any questions? >> besides the creation of the bill of rights another consequence of 1789 election, two very important additional consequences in addition to the bill of rights being passed. >> as if that wasn't enough the bill of rights cemented the union. two other significant events

that happened only because madison was there. both of which i'm convinced it madison had not been there instead of monroe the country still may have faulted on the tarmac. it's called the decision of 1789. they introduced cabinet legislation to create the president's cabinet position, there was a phrase in their this is there will be a secretary. james madison does something controversial, but the test and the greatest test additional of the first congress. some people said the constitution is silent on this, and so congress could grant this removal power but the dollar held to. they'd tease the mps from method. that is the only method we have. some thought this impeachment does believe the device in concurrence.

any one of those areas would have been a dramatic blow to the separation of powers. reso political, the constitution was sublime. he knew that people in power coalesce and more power. we created three branches of government, executive, legislative, and judiciary, the greatest of these was broken into two houses and they are all pitted against each other with checks and balances, and it is important to maintain that system to avoid tierney. and some madison engages in a long debate on the floor of the house. very uncertain as to what's going to happen, but the first by the other side to an amendment to strike the language saying to a b removal by the president. doing behind that very same amendment. but not for the same reason that it is offered. what he did was to start that language to be removable by the

president. then he added language. there will be declared an apartment. the secretary in the event that the secretary is a row by the president over any other reason. well, no one would ever mistake this for up blank power from congress. at present can remove a subordinate will and it would be unimaginable who could not removed a lesser official who was not implemented is in the that there were elected to work on. the second important consequence in addition to the bill of rights is the allocation of debate of the nation's capital and was in d.c. in the assumption of the national debt. for those of you washing -- watching in washington d.c., you're there because of this debate on this election. madison emerged as the focal point of the opposition in the first congress to secretary of the treasury alexander

hamilton's plan for the states, the federal government to assume . help him realize that this would give every state off to a good footing, it would restore the public, it would cement the union anti the union together. the seven states and more liz boyd of the bill. the northern states more illicit not. they want to know why this and pay twice. they worked hard to pay down their debts. if you won't come here what is a point of being in the union and all african relied you? hit washington d.c., and nearly kills george weston. runs into alexander hamilton, none of those things. he says what's wrong, i'm going nuts over this. public credit is going to fail.

and what thomas jefferson did was brokered deal done over wine and food in his house between james madison, the leader of the opposition to this plan and now it's in hamilton. madison was not going to vote for the plan. he would not be too strenuous and his opposition. such speculation that he and jefferson found in addition. hamilton with the turnaround and use his influence to draw. he badly needed this bill to select the potomac to the nation's capital. this is referred to as the first great compromise, the first of three before the civil war. this kept the peace and the country together, so what would have been different? well, number one, aside from the bill of rights munro's biggest objection to the constitution was the power of the executive. he had gone to war and rest his life, and he was not about to vote for anyone to come on under a different name. very concerned about the power of the presidency. he would not have carried the banner away madison had off and probably would have voted differently on the city of

question. my belief that the people who believed that the president did not have the power to remove insubordinate, they would have carried the day and there would have upset the delicate balance of power. what can you do with the president who is beholden to back like everyone, he could not have a margin as the focal point of opposition when madison did. you see, madison was a leader of the federalist party in congress. important to note the difference. now the speaker of the house, the leader of his party, the most powerful member, but in the first congress the speaker of the house was was a confined to a ceremonial role, kind of like the british house of commons. did not have a lot of authority. james madison, and so what the leader of the federalist party opposing the plan of hamilton, the federalist, he was a will to effectively block the legislation in the wake monroe would not have been able to, so i think these three critical

things to the bill of rights, the first-rate compromise where it was all decided differently because of three under and 36 votes in the fifth congressional district of virginia. >> where did you do your research? libraries, give some examples. >> espanola of time and what was called the madison meet -- reading room, named after james madison. and so it was fun to be able to research in a room that was in debt drama. the arizona state university library has fantastic resources, and unlike the library of congress to let me check a box and take some boards that i have absolutely no business being able to check and take on. my primary source is a letter from the up founding fathers themselves. a judge to let them speak for themselves whenever possible. madison was very meticulous cataloguing every letter he ever received. james monroe, not as much, but

also there was a lot there that i could use to get a sense of who he was and how he interacted so arizona state university was an excellent resource. library of congress is a great resource. try to go to places like the lutheran church to see what it would have been like when madison and monroe sent up there after a church service in the bay the constitution in the snow for hours. get to spend a lot of time in virginia where i was writing this book working on an election, and it was wonderful to be able to retrace his steps and work election in what used to be the fifth congressional district of virginia, or to support. so those of the two principal places. any other questions? >> quite the focus on this? >> that's a great question, and-a lot. it immediately jumped up to me is being restored 65 historically significant. if i have to make pcs is forever wonder ignored it did, first of

all, thank you for not appreciating the significance of this race were writing about things. i think if anything, such consequential events on either side of that. you know, we go from the constitutional convention in philadelphia, next thing more smith took the oath of office, and all is well. one of the things i try to point out in this book is that nothing is an epic. the things you do have consequence, the actions taken public life, the thing that is definitely within your power is to never give up. madison and monroe despaired of ever getting a government that was equal. after annapolis were barely anybody shows up, philadelphia, were it looks like process will walk out, when it looks like the congress, the ratification convention might not approve the constitution, it was desperate and close, but that did not give a. and so that is such an important thing that we don't consider. it looks so inevitable, steady history from the colonial era to independence a ridge of the

bonds of the most powerful and park the world that ever seen and established, unlike other revolutions and orderly government, not a marquee, not a charity, not anarchy, and orderly, free, republican government which was without precedents and all the history of human activity. and so this is important. it is badly overlooked by history when i first register read about this and not read about it. written by reaser is a contemporary. surely is to be a great first in the count. the most important congressional election. we think of congressional elections. reactions to financial panic, rex's to work, reduced unpopular. so we think of them with the exception of the race between abraham lincoln and stephen douglas, that is one race for congress that we do know about the do talk about, the places

where they debated, a popular tourist attractions. we've been to virginia. we can't go anywhere without some of those gray and by signs. to know someone fairness to live there. famous battle that happened there. in my famous is the church of the blind teacher. think it's great. they did so it seriously. you'll never find anything. of the spots. >> to questions, are we able to @booktv any -- what parts of the district of the fifth congressional district were supportive of one of the other candidates with a certain segment of society, war less popular, and secondarily any role at all of thomas jefferson and george washington, to begin in the age. >> as a great questions. to the first, that is a great

question. what is some people fall on the federalist and some people on the anti federalist. well, to generalize federalist for people who ran days and the mercantile trade, the police said, hey, i can see the benefit of having the same currency when i gusty miles north into maryland. i concede the benefit of having a fair judicial system when i have a sour deal in delaware and the benefit of having our government with national trade policies. i can open up a worldwide market. people who are not engaged in interstate trade, some of those folks, you know, they said, i don't know about this new government. he is going to invade my liberty, and it does any consequence of confederacy standing in the wake. so to generalize, why they fall in one place or another, and sometimes it's just the conclusions the people drew. totally uncharted territory, our government on like a world that ever seen amanda came to different conclusions about it.

james madison and monroe who were both descended from 70's century early inhabitants of the average in the colonies who had similar upbringings, madisons a little more, but very similar of bringing some above very well educated. he came to different conclusions. the service actually totally mirror each other from the virginia legislature to something called a council of state. a plural, the colonists once they became free americans are terrified of the executives. it did not want to have just one governor, and the council states that they could exercise is it a power jointly. the council of state. they both served in the conduct of congress and the congress of a confederation, so they have almost as epicene resonate. that was true for a lot of the countrymen as well. the second question, thomas jefferson, administrative, he does receive the most complete

post-election analysis. once referred to madison and monroe as the twin pillars of my happiness. in fact, rivals trying to convince madison to move next and. so they're already got monroe. the three of us to live together, we could hang out and be really happy. reading books, talking about books, but about the big ideas of the date. the twin pillars of his happiness, said he was pleased to get messages from both of them sang a help french shippers never set aside a matter how passionate. i felt bad. this is what happened. but we are still friends. and so jefferson with silver, but george washington very much wanted madison. one of the first letters of the resolutions that madison received is from george washington who, one thing that was done at the ms. monroe, responsible for promoting growth

through the ranks of the tunnel army. someone else during the winter at valley forge could ever have hoped to see that person as a difference. i think i quote a different book . talks about valley forge, name associated with misery to the 18th-century. and indeed, it was. but it was because a lesson to the madison, his advice, as counsel, madison was really the principal adviser to washington, and at least the first year of his presidency, to some degree that shifts alexander hamilton, but in the beginning it is james madison, the first congratulations the guestimating resolutions by the majority of respectable members appears, no how to read my ammonite your address the man that's what he does. the principal author of washington's first inaugural address which includes a call for an amendment to the constitution to satisfy the antifederalists setting the stage. congress asks madison to draft a

response to washington. madison rights is responses like, wow, that was such a good speech i don't even know how respond. and in washington said, have to send a reply to congress. of course he was happy to oblige him. i offer that. that's because it's humorous, but because it is a test to the high standard which is madison had among his colleagues in the congress and the president of the united states. everybody wanted to be a part of george washington's inner circle, but only madison had the caliber, trustworthiness, was his estimate to be his principal adviser during those critical early days were washington's trying to figure out the president. >> a great deal of debate about what would be in the bill of rights or was it generally understood that it would be, you know, religion, speech to make

such. >> that is such a great question. there was an enormous amount of debate over what the bill of rights would look like. in fact, many of the state ratification conventions, virginia included, some recommendations to congress call long list of recommendations. we think she should pass these amendments in the first session. there were literally hundreds of different ideas. madison focused on a few things. he was upright to do anything structural. some of the man is focused on weakening the executives, stripping away important powers of congress, regulate trade, we were going to get anything structural but focus on the fundamental liberties. trying to kick the whenever the sales. exactly what kind of measures to do that. first elected rights of free in lisbon, long tradition with a great tradition that people had to my the freedoms of people at as englishmen. one of the great things about living under a tired, weak or often subjects of king george the third. pretty much have a good idea, if

he had a mad tyrant governing over year, the things they would try to do if they could get away with it. for instance, when there were trying to tax the colonists in the aftermath the french and indian war, one of the things, smuggling went through the roof. tickets the smugglers to mob we spend it -- send soldiers into your house without warning, without notice, without any further sanctions on the judiciary committee go into your house in search. so people knew what they needed to protect against in the event there was ever a mad tyrant. an example of george the third session. madison selects from these fundamental liberties that had a long tradition in the united states, some of the most grievous that great burden had afflicted on as colonists, and that prole gives that list, and more less it passes exactly how introduces. allow the people don't know the bill of rights was originally 12 amendments, 11 of them passed, but one passed in the 1990's. the bill of rights, in the 1990's finely and the states

ratify an amendment. if congress wants to increase its paid, that's fine, but the pay increase will go into effect until there has been an election for the house of representatives in between so that people couldn't vote themselves a large seller in the retired. he won't touch a nickel of that pay increase until the voters have a say. but what happened was, as seen in the 1970's, the university of texas in order paper about this. he said this is still up there. states could pass this. his teacher gave him a failing grade. this is the worst idea ever. never underestimate the power of spite. rhoda letters every legislature in america singing case you want to you is still do this, and why wouldn't you? it's always a winning issue. so why would you want to pass this? in the 1990's finally in a state school aid and ratify this.

the 12th amendment, thank goodness, we never passed all would have guaranteed one representative, one member of the house for every 10,000 citizens. we would be -- we think congress can get anything done now, wait until there are 10,000 members of the house of representatives. >> what did monroe golan to do after losing the election? >> that is a great question. a happy ending for monroe. you know, you may be able to us have some familiar sentiments to my very frustrated. to not necessarily enjoy the practice of law. at one point early on he says i'm getting a law degree so i can run for office. helpful in my political career. never going to practice. as championing the bill of rights, malraux's winning an indictment against a man for stealing from his neighbor. writing letters to irritate clients about the pace of litigation, some things never

change. but what happens is there is a gas. one of the two senators' ties. roche says of vacancy. so the first receptor all. he goes on to a fantastic career. ambassador to france, helps negotiate the louisiana purchase , and the two of them have a little bit of a falling out over who should succeed jefferson as president. some of the opposition, some of the opponents coalesce behind monroe as a possible candid to go up against. jefferson shows and success. but madison eventually brings monroe, the two of them preside over the war of 18th altogether, and they will go on to be the best of friends in retirement when their public careers are over. there will surf at the end of their lives in a state constitutional convention.

this to end john marshall and all these young hires, what they're fighting over its representation. very few western reserve line in virginia, such as another representation. similar to a debate we had at the constitutional convention, madison and monroe tried everything. well, how about one branch in the senate to be based on equal in evita house, you know, or not to to take slaves into account. you guys don't know what you're talking about. this is the danger britney old men to public life. if they're grown up, so excited to have them. the election. the have no idea what you're talking about. both sides ready to succeed. of course they did not appreciate the fact that the union had once been so perilous and madison and monroe knew what it was like to live in a time when at the open question as to whether america could this is what country. if only they had lived.

>> did madison remain in the federalist camp or did his time with jefferson and monroe's which an overage to the democratic republicans? >> a lot of discussion. i think it is did he move out of the federalist, would have been traditionally the federalist. the two parties were roughly defined by their position in the constitution. once madison passes a bill of rights you really have removed the source of the entire federal is a federalist. so now that the constitution, the question of whether to keep the constitution is out of the wake define new issues to fight about. so the new party is sort of fallen to lines, and i think you can see a split in the wash new cabinet between thomas jefferson and alexander hamilton and james madison was more from on jefferson side of the split.