>> lawrence was every bit his father son. exposure to the ravages of war could not distract him from the issues of the bay. i hope my lots are secure, he wrote. which if i return i shall make use of as my dwelling.

the lots in question consisted of 20 of hundred acres along middle huntington creek, virginia, which washington had transferred to lawrence just before you embark to the indies. lawrence would remain his virginia estate mount vernon, after his guantánamo interlocutor. besides describing his lands, lawrence confided to burn his hopes to the ohio country. which judging from his activities upon returning to virginia was always topmost on his mind. home by january 1743, the year his father died, lawrence carried on the family tradition. marrying wealthy, forging powerful social and political alliances, pursuing his land and i am anxious back and forth across the seas. laurents transatlantic trips paid off in 1747 win along with

a group of prominent virginia in english investors he founded the ohio company of virginia, eventually winning a grand of 200,000 acres near present day pittsburgh, pa. now, those who thought to tap the resources of the ohio country had to figure out a way to bring it to market. it was simply impractical to carry it east over the appalachian mountains to the old port of baltimore, new york and philadelphia. better to ship it down the allegheny and ohio rivers, ultimately to the mississippi river and gulf of mexico. this only raised questions about access not only to the french port of new orleans but also to regional and hemisphere shipping lanes, at the time largely in control of spain. here's where vernon must have cut him. had washington that aubrey heard it from his father, the surveyor, he would also certainly learn from vernon that

plans for developing the american hinterland hinged on command of three key waterways. the yucatán show, the florida straits and the windward passage. the mississippi river drains into the gulf of mexico, as everybody knows, but the gulf of mexico is part of a regional circulation system that governs access to its various parts. occurrence in the gulf of mexico close crosswise, it enters to the yucatán channel and exits through the florida straits. in the age of sail, travel against that current is difficult, often impossible, which meant that ships access to the gulf of mexico through the caribbean sea. finally the caribbean in turn had many ways that few deep passageways. passages none deeper and more convenient to europe and north america than the windward passage on which sits guantánamo bay. in short, cuba was a gravitational center around which the system churned.

the country that controlled cuba would demand that trade and traffic and north american continents, but of the western hemisphere itself. burning arrived with high hopes. what he found exceeded his expectations. it was not simply a guantánamo afforded ready access to sandy i go to cuba, spain second capital in cuba, nor that they could absorb the entire fleet, nor that it offers better protection from tropical storms than port royal, nor finally that it is ideally situated to safeguard british shipping throughout the caribbean. all of which was true. but what put guantánamo over the top was its native splendor, it's navigable rivers, rolling hills, fertile plains. and yet from the beginning of the expedition, a fatal disagreement between the navy and the army during the expedition to cuba, despite a surprising absence of spanish

troops and open road to santiago from guantánamo, the british army never advanced. and after nine days, neither the absence of the enemy of the establishment of a secure camp induced burns army counterpart to move. vernon set off to canvass the local countryside on his own. descending a latter, he boarded a long boat and headed up the guantánamo river. his delight at what he found apparently exaggerated eye his fear of losing. i thought it the most beautiful prospect i ever saw, he wrote the atmel. to row all the way with green trees on both sides appearing like agreeing fence. starting camps, he crested the hill to come face-to-face with the finest planes in the west indies, boarded by the river.

takes only a little imagination to wonder if they could of been the original, the site of the original mount vernon in both earnings and washington's minds. growing accounts of guantánamo began to sweep the colonies just as burning came to recognize the campaign was over. and early autumn of 1741, newspapers up and down the atlantic seaboard announced almost accurately that admiral vernon was right in sandy i go to cuba and that land forces was a small distance away from the city. more detailed descriptions of guantánamo a company british transport north, the finest harbor i ever saw, a pleasant island far exceeding all the west indies that had been in, a country laden with cattle, place as healthy as a man can wish.

wild hogs in abundance. water plenty and pure, as good as any i've seen among us. these just are some of the images calculated to distract the columnist. make the best of your way here, one writer put no doubt we shall in a very short time have quiet possession of the whole place. and in first come, first serve, now or never were a plantation on the island of cuba. unfortunately for the americans and their supporters, british land officers did not share of earnings enthusiasm of the campaign, as i mentioned. colonial troops overheard the european protesting being asked to expose their lives for procuring settlement for the americans. this is one of the earliest instances of use of americans to describe the colonists as we know. in a military lacking command the army opposition to this adventure was enough to carry

the bay but as the odds are delivering his land of promise windows, burning consoled himself with a thought that he at least understood the americans correctly, i think my inclinations have been entirely conformable, he wrote, to what i believe is a principal motive of all the american officers of engaging in this service. the hopes of being settled in the west indies and in cuba preferably to all other places. weeks of running with wentworth had left burning dispirited and ready to return to higher latitudes. the wishful admiral could do nothing but stand aside as if the american dreams went up in smoke. we discerned the huts of the camp to be a fire he reported on november 16. mr. wentworth having marched out with his remaining men and embarked on board his majesty ship. cruelly to burn himself held a burden of completing his self-immolation. three weeks later on december 6,

a sunday, he set fire to a fine new battery at the center of the bay, and sail out of guantánamo, never to return. the americans by contrast would be back. not these americans, not anytime soon, but soon enough. before any rival power, including spain, would occupy guantánamo makes good its riches. to the original american recruits survived the expedition. massachusetts sent 500 troops and returned 50. there were 200 troops and return 20, astounding figures replicated throughout the colonies. lawrence washington was among the fortune it's to return to the colonies, thus securing edward vernon's place in u.s. history. but washington left cuba with more than a new name. a stubborn case of tuberculosis accompanied him home.

and 17 for three at blossom by the end of the decade, ultimately killing him on july 26, 1752, at the unripe age of 33. it was left to george to transfer mount vernon to a bungled military campaign into the triumphant symbol of a new nation. but the more mount vernon became associate with its new owner, the further its connection to guantánamo bay be seated, so that today guantánamo's place in america's history is all but forgotten. guantánamo was there at the beginning, and it has been there ever since, reflecting sometimes shaping the aspirations, the institutions of the people who like to call themselves americans, and to be reckoned peoples for whom they have been so closely and controversially tied. okay, so there's a taste of historical guantánamo.

in the time remaining i would like to say a few words about where we are today. incidentally i always thought that audiences should be suspicious when a story ends, turns to discuss contemporary affairs, and that they should run for the doors when we wage, move into the future. but given the subject and the occasion the 10th anniversary of guantánamo, the opening of the guantánamo prison, i hope you'll indulge me just a little so we can have nice debate at the end of the talk. so on this the 10th anniversary of the opening of the guantánamo prison, it's safe to say the guantánamo prison enjoys more public and political support today than at any time in its 10 year history. in poll after poll taken since president obama took office, americans have overwhelmingly rejected the idea of closing the prison and transferring its population stateside.

in december 2010, just before ceding its maturity, the democratically both controlled congress dealt a near fatal blow to the administration's effort to close the prison by prohibiting the president from transferring detainees to the united states from buying or constructing a prison on u.s. soil. from repatriating detainees without a signed guarantee from the secretary of defense that three detainees would not return to battle, something the secretary of defense right mind would ever give. all these provisions incidentally were enacted without parliamentary debate and virtually without any public notice. just 13 days ago, on new year's eve, the president signed the new national defense authorization act which reinforced last year's legislation, and in some. the president's apparent only confirms what the polls and

politicians have been telling us for the last several years, we are all guantánamo now. how many of you knows this past november the opening of the first military tribunal to occur on mr. obama's watch? when guantánamo officials arraigned a man, the alleged mastermind of 2000 cold attack, attack on uss cole, 17 americans died. this case is a capital case. the commission goes forth next week picture the guantánamo commission declare him guilty, the president will find of an awkward awkward position of presiding over the first military execution there. one can only imagine the headlines emblazoned across the media, throughout the world. guantánamo execution, obama puts to death detainee.

so how than in the world has this come to pass? much of the responsibility i think belongs to the bush administration, for he was no ordinary defendant. captured and united in rate in 2002 he was transferred to u.s. custody and taken to black sites afghanistan and later poland where he was waterboarded, threat with an electric drill, and mock execution, and more than his family would be treated to the same treatment if he didn't tell his interrogators what they wanted to hear. after arriving at guantánamo in 2006, he retracted the confession about his leadership about the cole attack. the evidence now a kinston appears secondhand hearsay. inadmissible in federal court, by the way. another man, the convicted driver of osama bin laden, told an fbi agent he overheard a

plan, while at an al qaeda safe house back in 2001. the degree of coercion to produce that information is anybody's guess. some of the responsibility rests with congress, determined to maintain an exploit the fear that allow the american public to turn it limelight on bush administration prime concerns in congress have managed to convince rational individuals like new york city's mayor, for instance, that trying and accused tears in federal court would be too dangerous, too costly, and too lenient. that was getting the record of successful federal terrorism, prosecutions and the fact that sentences in such cases have tended to be far more severe than those meted out by the guantánamo military commission. indicates exemplifying the supposed inability of the federal court system to handle terrorist crimes, the alleged planner of the 1998 east african embassy attack was given a life

sentence while i'm done himself try to guantánamo in the last military commission before obama shut the system down was given five months in addition to time already served. the charges on which the two were convicted were essentially the same, material support for terrorism or conspiracy. it's worth emphasizing the longest sentence handed down at guantánamo again by contrast, is nine months, yes, you're that right, nine months to australian david hicks. meanwhile, congressional democrats are only too happy to play along. this is equal opportunity blame. being accused of being soft on terrorism to join group of committed majority in blocking transfer of detainees while nearly reconciling itself to the status quo. this is in vain to what one president can't use to refer to as straight talk of guantánamo.

but surely much of us build rests with mr. obama himself. in august 2007, candidate obama told the woodrow wilson center for international scholars that as president he would jettison the commission. as a venue for trying terrorists, he observed, guantánamo was a perfect failure. mr. obama vowed to close one tunnel, reject military commission's act and a tear to the geneva conventions. that's demonstrate to all the world, these are his words, that law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rotors, and that justice is not arbitrary. i'm aware that -- the challenges confronting presidents practical. still mr. obama insists a series of reforms carried out after he took office put the guantánamo commission on a par with federal courts and military courts-martial in terms of constitutional safeguards. but logic alone refute him.

if the standards are equal, why do we need both? moreover, military tribunals have a historic event objects of last resort rather than a political convenience as they appear to be today. the al-nashiri case, the administration cherry picking the venue which seems most likely to produce a favored outcome. hard evidence of a judicial system, depoliticized. furthermore, i outlined for about review while at same time admitting hearsay evidence and ignoring the sixth amendment safeguard of confrontation, among other defects, the results commissioned virtually guarantees that guilty verdicts will be mired. in short, the candidate got it right, the guantánamo commissions are unjust and unnecessary, not the past pashtun the path to swift justice americans deserve. mr. obama bears responsibility for the position in which he now

finds himself in another way. those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, the philosopher once remarked. i doubt that history repeats itself, but there is ample of it hunting those who ignore. why has mr. obama failed to deliver on his promise to close the guantánamo prison? the president can't move forward i want to suggest because he has been unwilling to look back. there's been no rigorous public accounting as the crimes committed there and no account of how they fit into the more distant history. so if i can repeat my history a little bit, post 9/11 guantánamo is not the historical anomaly we like to believe. in selecting guantánamo as a place for prison to hold detainees beyond the reach of u.s. constitutional protection, the bush administration chose the site had been used that way before, in the 1990s under presidents bush one and clinton,

when as many as 85,000, that's right, 85,000 haitian and cuban refugees were detained behind barbed wire at guantánamo bay, on two separate episodes, some for up to two years. that policy in turn dates back to the 1970s when u.s. immigration officials first broached the idea of using guantánamo as a holding facility for haitian boat people unwanted in florida, on the same ground, with no due process at the bay, the united states could process the refugees out of sight of prying journalists and human rights lawyers alike. and so the record goes. it strikes me that an american public armed with the facts about recent descent you a second at guantánamo would seem less likely to remain complacent about it. and in form countless public is a cynical and non-for shuttering both the prison and a military commission, and thereby saving mr. obama from compounding

guantánamo's and america's no variety. so where does this leave us going forward? this is where some of you might run for the exits. welcome in the face of these developments, and this, this in penetrable block on closing the prison, i have come to conclude that is president obama truly wants to come close the prison, the most realistic way to do so at this point would be to begin negotiations with cuba to return the base itself. the navy neither needs nor wants the base, and i've heard this in person, and don't hold onto it as a goodwill gesture to fellow military branches in the state department. in short, it is taking one for the team. guantánamo is expensive. to me the debate whether to shut or make permanent the prison obscures much deeper fare, and implicates all of us, left,

right and center. namely, a continued occupation of guantánamo itself. i think it's past time to return this legacy to cuba. from the moment the united states government force cuba to lease the bay in june 1901, the american presence there has been more than a thorn in castro's site. it serve to remind people the world over of america's long history of interventionist militarism. huge gestures to have a salutary effect on the current impasse in american cuban relations of handing over the bay. bear with me as i returned one last time to the historical window that preceded the u.s. occupation of guantánamo. as a circumstances by which that came about or as troubling as subsequent u.s. activity there. in april 1898, american forces intervened in cuba's three year

old struggle in independence when it was all but one. transforming the cuban were independents and what we like to call the spanish-american war. american officials excluded the cuban army from the armistice, and then excluded cuba from the paris peace conference which formally ended spain's holding of cuba. there is so much natural anger throughout the island, the cuban general, maximo gomez remarked, in january 1899, after the peace treaty was signed, that the people haven't really been able to celebrate the triumph of the end of their former rulers power. here is the united states decoration of war on spain include the assurance that america did not seek sovereignty jurisdiction or control over cuba, and intend to leave the government in control of the island to its people. this pledge defies two centuries

of american aspirations for cuba. clearly, something would have to be done. cuba would have to be made independent will remain under u.s. dominion. the u.s. would have to retain the naval bases from which to exercise its authority. enter general leonard wood, u.s. military governor of cuba bearing a set of provisions that became known as the plat a minute. to a particularly otis to cuba. one guaranteeing the right to deny states, the right to intervene in cuban affairs, the other providing for the sale or lease of what would become the guantánamo naval station. another gomez under to the first and then delegate to the cuban constitutional convention remarked that the amendment rendered the cubans as he put it, a vassal people. anticipate the cuban missile crisis, he warned that foreign bases on cuban soil would only draw cuba into conflux, not of her own making, and in which we have those at stake.

platt was rigid were to our continued u.s. occupation, and they got the message. there was little or no -- for sensible cubans realized deal, is to seek annexation. but with platt in place who needed annexation? over the next two decades the united states repeatedly dispatched wonton will arrange to protect its interest in cuba and block any land reform or social reform. between 1900-1920, some 44,000 americans flocked to cuba to live, boosting capital investment on the island to just over $1 billion from roughly 80 million at the start of the century. this prompted one journalist to remark, little by little the whole island is passing into the

hands of the americans. so how did this look from cuba's perspective? imagined the end of the american revolution the french have decided to remain here. imagine that the french refuse to allow washington and his army to attend the armistice at yorktown. imagine that they do not allow the cotton of congress a seat at the treaty of paris, ex-appropriation of tory property, occupied new york harbor, dispatched troops and other popular rebellions and integrated the colonies in droves, snatching up the most valuable land. for such is the context in which the united states came to occupy guantánamo. it's a history excluded from american textbooks, and neglected in the debates over terrorism, but it's a history known in cuba where it motivated the 1959 revolution, another story, and throughout latin america, it explains why

guantánamo remains a symbol of hypocrisy around the world. who needs to speak of the last 10 years? is present obama were to acknowledge this history and initiate the process of returning guantánamo to cuba, he might not begin to put the mistakes of the last 10 years behind us, but he would rectify an age-old grievance and lay the groundwork for new relations with cuba and other countries in the western hemisphere, and around the world. there's a lot we can talk about, let me close with a reading. this is my favorite passage from the project. but it remains for reasons i'm at a loss to explain, out of the book on the cutting room floor. it returns to the counterintuitive thing i introduced at the beginning of people using guantánamo as a springboard to fulfill their dream. this time you'll meet one of the last characters from my riddle,

a cuban fugitive, in this case fugitives from castro's cuba. cuba celebrates september 8 as the nativity of the virgin, a day of miracles and wonder. the little boat wind its way up the windward passage on the morning of september 8, 1994, would need all the help it could get. it was leaving cuba for good, bad for the u.s. naval base at guantánamo bay. just the previous month cuban president fidel castro open cuba to immigration. in response, u.s. immigration officials establish a temporary processing center at the naval base. cubans capable of making it to guantánamo could expect to end up in the united states. rumor had it presents castro and clinton were about to sign an immigration accord, the window of opportunity appears to be closing. for the crew, the bay had begun

early. they had hoped to leave the beach just north of santiago by 7 a.m., but first they had to get their little motor boat to water which involved a truck making independent on the function of not one but two internal combustion engines, unreliable in cuba, and their truck broken. after convincing a passing motorist to ferry them to the beach, they departed about an hour late, bidding goodbye to stricken friends and family. after seeing the exiles off, the families dispersed to the small town just north of sanity i go up the road. the site of an epic battle in the cuban spanish-american war. what were the odds of them making it 40 miles down the coast? better than those of fellow exiles who attended 90 miles across the florida straits, where the prevailing winds and

currents threaten to drive them into the atlantic. it's an overstatement to call many of the vessels that left cuba that summer boats, which is why these immigrants are known as raptors, after the maker craft in which many of them took to the sea. it was a true bow, powered by a little engine, she would be heading directly into the wind and waves. difficult but definitely doable. every minute mattered and she was already running late. the windward passage barely tranquil, is columnist in early morning before the sun generates heat, before the sun's heat generate wind and the wind kicks up a seat. on an average hourly morning in september, the seas between santiago and guantánamo, is relatively flat. by 10 a.m. or so it has begun to mount and will continue to do so

through midafternoon, spawning ways they can intimidate seasoned sailors. bite 10 a.m., at home, family members could be certain that it was plunging headfirst into daunting ways, all eyes were on the heavens. now, cubans arrived at the guantánamo naval base in late summer 1994 were allowed one phone call to miami, or everyone knew somebody and for communication network immediately sprang into action, getting were too anxious relatives back home. but this could take hours, sometimes days, a period tortures to exiles and their families. among the last objects loaded on to the tiny boat as it departed was a birdcage, covered by a sheet. inside of which fluttered to pigeons, agitated by the bumpy car ride. the birds were brought along not as food in the event of emergency, though they might

have served as that, but as a means of communication. they were homing pigeons trained by one of the passengers. around 11 a.m. as it approached the mouth of guantánamo bay, a u.s. cutter heaved alongside to take the cubans into custody. but not before they tore the sheets off the page, sprung the latch and release the pigeons into the air. within minutes, the birds disappeared, some five hours later, around 4 p.m., two black specks dot in the sky. the pigeons had made it home. they bore a note. [speaking in spanish] we arrived safely at 11 a.m. at guantánamo naval base. and you for listening. [applause] -- thank you for listening.

>> so come happy to take questions, and questioners are asked to line up. >> what's that about giving it back? you may not ask a question from the floor. you have to come up. >> i have a question. in your following of the republican primaries, or shall we say iowa and new hampshire, have you heard any question at all about guantánamo? >> in the last several weeks i have heard no, not much talk about guantánamo. made ronnie, about two months ago or three months ago, said he was really dying to make it permanent. and so in that way though he was

just reflecting his opinion, majority republican opinion, but also considerable democratic opinion, too. but i haven't heard a ton. as i say, this congress recently passed a new defense national defense authorization act, and that makes it as tough as it was last year for guantánamo, for president obama to do anything to the prison. because by and large it simply withholds funds from him to bring detainees from guantánamo. so we would have to go around congress and i believe that would create a political firestorm. i haven't heard a ton about it. has anyone else? i don't know. i'm sure that if you look carefully enough they're staying stuff about but it's mostly that they want to keep it -- [inaudible] >> sorry, we can hear anybody from the floor. >> i will yell. >> no.

even, even -- [inaudible] >> that's right. but can say that. [inaudible] >> but first say -- >> romney said he want to increase the number of prisoners there, not just not get rid of it. >> that's part of the legislation but it would use thank you to all prisoners. it's interesting, actually several years ago i made an argument at a time of the surge that maybe it was imprudent forced to close guantánamo given that there's a modicum of habeas corpus, and a modicum of transfatty, a modicum mind you at guantánamo. or else are we detaining detainees, under what conditions and for how long? we don't really know. there are 3000 detainees at the moment in bagram, 3000 in bagram. who knows where else? and being held under conditions that apparently are not, are not as good, you would say, as at guantánamo. and guantánamo isn't a happy

place of course. interesting. so romney wants to increase the number. in that he is in very good company. >> so, we kind of take it as a historical inevitability that the u.s. is there, but did castro ever, during his might, did he ever tried to take over guantánamo? was ever in jeopardy? you know, and what is that defense like the castro actually -- >> right. so, so castro, guantánamo has served both casos interest in somewhat as having something to rail against, and the american interest in having something to stick in castro so i. but castor was way too smart. the united states since the revolution has been looking for an excuse to just roaring to cuba and take it over. castro was way too smart to create, give them a reason to do that at guantánamo bay, and he

used to say that. but that didn't keep the americans from trying to stage any number of things. let me read you a fantastic set of ideas about this. this is random, okay? this is a quote, a list of pretext, this is a 1961 or two. a list of pretext to justify u.s. military, state department stuff, national security writing. there is a list of pretext to justify u.s. military intervention in cuba, this included an elaborate register of potential actions undertaken at or near the naval base. quote, a series of well coordinated and eventually plan to take place in and around guantánamo to give general appearance being done by hostile cuban forces. a credible to attack on the naval base, lance randall -- friendly cubans on base. capture saboteurs inside the base. starts riots near the base.

start fires, burn aircraft, lobbed mortar shells. capture military groups. sabotage ships. we could blow up a u.s. ship in guantánamo bay and blame cuba. we could blow up a drunk vessel and arranged to cause such incidents in the vicinity of havana as a spectacular result of cuban a tactic the u.s. could follow up with an air sea rescue operation. i write here, this was an administrator willing to play pashtun this is kennedy liberals, right? the ideas kept coming. we could sink a boatload of cubans en route to florida, real or simulated. we could foster attempts on lives of cuban refugees in the united states, even to the extent of wounding to be widely on the size. explode a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots to rescue cuban agent. on and on to win. it makes are good, ultimately

tedious reading, but there you have it. so yes, that's, and, there was a lot of talk, cast was unaware of it and he tried to basically stay out of it. this book is no brief for castro by the way. so you guys can ask questions but according to the rules, the guy in blue can come up to the stage in. >> early on page 87, it's fascinating, and the whole history of united states relations, even the dreams that your friend vernon had, i mean, washington vernon, tainted i would say. there was always some raise to procure, to gain access to, get

rid of those who are there. the most horrible run is on page 87. they want to exterminate the various foes of american interests in order to and acts the pearl of the antilles, you're right. and dear mr. teddy roosevelt, then assistant secretary of navy, was not uninvolved. >> i mean, they were lunatics back then as there are lunatics now. was equal in which and to me is you don't have to be a lunatic to believe so much of this. the idea that the guys that did it will just go in and lay waste to cuba. coming, part of the book, one of the things i insist on, one of the arguments, the reason i talk about this argument from political economy is because my point is as i say, i will say again that we're all sort of implicated, look at our standard of living in a world of gross

disparity, that takes force, right? guantánamo is essential to american nation making. nation making come anybody can even hours with our vaunted principles which i like isn't pretty. i say that where there's this talk of a fall from grace, i say that's not what nationbuilding is about. presumes growth and expansion. the great african-american credit, some of my last book at the turn of the 20th century was looking at world war i and the race for colonies and things. and he said company, he was a proponent of democracy. they want after america's be included as those other people come and and women, you name it. but he said on who's back will fall the burden of rising boats that lists all people across the world?

where to go, mars? where we go to get those resources? can the world sustained a rising standard of living? i don't know. i have a father-in-law who is a physicist is interested in management conversation, and claims made we could get there. but who knows. i think your point is a good one, and it is a sad story. yes, there are weirdos like breckenridge who i quote in roosevelt sometimes, but i think a my point is guantánamo serves all of our interest even if we don't like to admit it. you know, it's jack nicholson the do you want the truth? you can't stand the truth but i think there's an element of the a lot of one of people i met with in guantánamo and the military said that, even though they didn't have to. please. >> just a couple of points if i

may. i was probably at guantánamo before you were born so i can envision which were talking about. >> 1970. >> really? i was there in the '50s. >> i was born before the '70s. [laughter] >> i guess i would like to say what is your solution to the present problem? because i would say that turning prisoners and the bay over to cuba is not a solution in my point of view, because they will let the prisoners go back home. and as somebody once said, how do you get rid of a prisoner of war? the idea is you surrender. now, in world war ii when italy surrendered, boston was loaded with italian prisoners of war. they didn't just say go home, they stayed here until the war was over. and then they sent them back. well, the few prisoners that have been let go from cuba is

evidently some sort of history, they've gotten back into conflict again. so you get an enemy that you're keeping out of trouble, for us, and you let him go, he can get back in trouble with us again. so i would just say, i don't think just turning it back to cuba is a solution to the prisoner problem. my second question is, as your last little quote about the guys that sailed up to guantánamo, since the pigeons home some and they were there, what a wonderful thing, what's your point? they were cubans in cuba who saw a better way, and that is come to the united states, get out of cuba. and i understand a little bit of background. i was there when castro's predecessor was running things, and i can see in my mind any cuban who lived there wasn't a part of his regime probably wanted to see him out.

by illustration i was that i was on a train in guantánamo city, lousy place. >> i won't ask where you're going. >> you don't have to. but i didn't do anything bad, i can take that. >> guantánamo city is a famous place. >> a lot of brothels. >> everyone says never me. one person said once. >> i was there. and they used to run a train from guantánamo bay, deliberate and come back if we were getting on the train that night and a lot of -- the trains were open by the way. like passenger cars but no windows because it's all open, good weather. and there were vendors who would come up to the windows and tried to sell you things, the last money before you went. one of these sergeants for the campaign add on in the arm, he just ran down with his sword this whacking -- slashing at

them. if he killed one of them, it was no harm. that was the regime those people lived under. and the last point i would make is that, why do those people want us to be there? number one, we employed a tremendous number of cuban citizens in that base. they used to come in the morning and go home at night, and they were paid probably the fairest wages if anybody in cuba, so there are a lot of reasons they wanted -- what is your guess about the prisoners? ..

>> the point of the birds was just to show, just to cut against this notion of this bad guantanamo. that's the point at the beginning, right? what's the point of the riddle? people have been dying to get there forever, right? it's been this incredible place, super valuable. americans have been trying to get there, cubans have been trying to get there to get out. i went into the book having talked to one cuban who said, you know, giving back guantanamo is the one thing all cubans -- getting it back from america is the one thing that all cubans want. and then i interviewed 9, 10, 15 people who like this, came to the united states through the 1990s, and at the end of these interviews i asked every single one, i said what's the last word you want to tell americans? every one of them, totally different political affiliations and inclinations said don't give it back. so that cut against this bigger -- so the point of the

birds is kind of your point. it's a complicated point and, you know, people are political, and people are good in bed, but places aren't. places are where people come, and there are resources used by people so that guantanamo itself is interesting and complicated. that was the point of that, i don't know if it came off, but i just wanted to show off my writing. [laughter] that was my proudest writing, and it never made into it the book, and i'm still angry at my editor. bad regime. batista. right, yes, i wish i'd spoken to you earlier. i spoke to tens of people who were there, and there's great stories in the chapter. i hope you'll read the book because i'm not be as policemen call as i sound, i suppose. there's a great story of a kid, i'll make the long story really short, befriends some cubans, ends up running guns off the base in to help the cuban resistance movement against this

terrible deck tater, batista. -- dictator. everybody knew about batista, right in and eventually, this is before castro lands, and eventually goes up and joins castro. so everyone calls him, right, the great enabler for castro. for the first several years, maybe even until 960 castro -- 1960, castro was basically a liberal member of the ordinary party in cuba. so it's really complicated. the story of castro's, you know, political affiliations and things should be a book, and so i'm -- that's my next project. then finally, you know, about the recidivism, you know, they said we can't release any of these guys because they go back, and they fight in the war. who says they fight in the war? who tells us that? the american government. where do they get that? intelligence. what's the record on american intelligence in the last ten years?

i don't believe any of that. they get the names wrong all the time. i don't want doubt that some of them -- i don't doubt that some of them go back, we live by the rule of law. you shake your head, but on that one the record is with me, i think, and not you. there's no evidence that all of these people actually went back. you can't call them recidivists because, right? they've been not only indicted, but convicted of something. these people have never been convicted of anything. a lot of them -- i don't doubt there's some bad ones there. what was the last thing? oh, what to do with the prisoners. this is crucial. so, i mean, this is not me talking. people all across the political spectrum, it's hard to hear the ones from the right in, during a primary, um, presidential process who's recognized. it's absolutely ridiculous to say that we can't bring, close that prison, bring those detainees here, try them in federal court. i'm sorry, but this is habeas corpus. release the ones we can't hold

after the war, i suppose, right? so the courts are upholding indefinite detention, but this is a problem we all have to admit, right? in a war that'll have no ending because it's a war on terror, when will terror end? that's a long time to be detained, right, with no charges. so, yeah, it's complicated. i think many of your points are fair, and i think we could have a good debate. >> you said the navy doesn't or people in the navy you talked to didn't want to hold on to guantanamo. is it an active navy base now apart from the prison? >> so very good question. i want to quote a couple people from the conclusion. um, so, and this is from general barry mccaffrey who's a four-star marine corps general, general jack keane, another four-star general from summerville, by the way, and

then another person who is the head, the commander of public works while i was there. here they say, i say -- this is on 356 for those who are following. r50 years after accuracy toe's rise to -- 50 years after castro's rise to power, guantanamo affords no strategic advantage. we're not going to attack cuba, the place exists now solely as a product of bureaucratic inertia. as a strategic naval facility, it never was important. it's always been -- [inaudible] there are people who disagree with him. he's a marine guy, right? today adds jeffrey johnson, guantanamo adds absolutely nothing to the navy be. if guantanamo disappeared, every ship would sail, every sailor would be trained. so as i said, the navy just feels like they're taking one

for the team. the coast guard uses it, the state department uses it, the immigration nationalization service uses it, you know, there's talk that we're using it, we've used it for covert stuff. there's a lot of evidence, right, over the last 50 years. mccaffrey says, he's a very straightforward man, he doesn't like a lot of the bush administration policy. he says the real tragedy is that it's gone, we can't use it as this great secret place anymore. >> but it's not a ship repair facility this. >> no. >> is it a port of call? >> it was up until about 994 during the second of the migrant operations when they moved back to mayport, florida. there was something walled the fleet -- called the fleet training group. >> that was my question. i don't know the importance of windward passage through the movement throw the now -- through the now being widened panama canal. >> that's interesting.

the navy thinkses they can get out of it. >> then they've got a poseidon base in florida. but the ports along the east coast are, what, savannah, norfolk, new york, new jersey. >> right. missing one. >> and baltimore -- >> florida. anyway, i can't think of it. mayport i mentioned, yeah. >> well, mayport. >> but also so the navy is working in pods as much as they are out of bases, there are sort of floating cities of naval ships right now, and they're less dependent on any one place. >> so whatever monitoring of sea lanes, of communication that would have taken place based in taliban tan mow is now -- guantanamo is now either done by satellites -- >> that's right. >> -- or other means? >> right. and i think they feel that they can get there fast enough without having to be based there. >> be yeah. >> world war ii it was a great transit point for shipping, right?

it protected, it was sort of the linchpin this a convoy system that protected shipping up the eastern seaboard all the way over to england in the war against the nazis. but after that according to a lot of people who know, it hasn't been essential. it was essential for fleet training until 1994 which is important, but other than that, no. >> okay, thank you. >> i don't know if there's maybe one more question, but we have books for sale provided by porter square books in the back, and jonah said he would sign them. >> sure. and is there another question? no. my kids want to come up and get on tv and ask me what time they have to get up in the morning? [laughter] all right, i'm going to walk away and go sign books. thank you very much. [applause] >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. type the author or book title in the search bar on the upper left

side of the page and click search. you can also share anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. booktv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. >> what i found again and again and again while i was researching this book was that not only was garfield's life and nomination and brief presidency full of incredible stories, but the people who surrounded him were also unbelievable. you just couldn't make them up. first, of course, charles few toe, garfield's would-be assassin. he was a deeply, dangerously delusional man, but he was intelligent and highly articulate. if you read nearly any ore account of garfield's

assassination, he is described as a disgruntled office seeker, but that doesn't cover the smallest part of it. he was a uniquely american character. he was a product of this country at that time. a time when there was a lot of play in the joints, and there was no one to really understand what he was up to. and hold him to account for it. giew toe was a self-made madman. she was smart and scrappy -- he was smart and scrappy, he was a clever opportunist, and he probably would have been very successful if he hadn't been insane. [laughter] he had tried everything, and he had failed at everything. he had tried law, evangelism, even a free love commune in the 1800s, and he had failed even at that. the women in the commune nicknamed him "charles get out." [laughter] but he survived on sheer

audacity. he traveled all over the country by train and never bought a ticket. he took great pride in moving from boarding house to boarding house, slipping out when the rent was due. and even when he occasionally worked as a bill collector, he would just keep whatever he managed to collect. after the republican convention, guiteau became obsess with the the president and went to the white house every day. at one point he even walked into the president's office wheel the was in -- while the president was in it. he even attended a reception is and introduced himself to garfield's wife. he shook her hand, he gave her his card, and he slowly pronounced his name so she wouldn't forget hill. it's like a hitchcock movie. it's incredibly creepy and absolutely terrifying.

finally, guiteau had what he believed was a define inspiration, god wanted him to kill the president. it was nothing personal he would later say, simply god's will will. as strange and fascinating and nearly as dangerous as guiteau was senator rosco conkling, and that's chester arkansas you are the -- [laughter] arthur. conkling was a vain, preening, brutally powerful of machine politician who appointed himself garfield's enemy. he wore -- there's conkling. he wore canary yellow waistcoats, he used lavender ink, he had, as you can see, a spit curl in the middle of his forehead, and he recoiled at the slightest touch. in fact, his vanity was so outsized, that he was famously

ridiculed for it on the floor of congress. but conkling was no joke. he was dangerously powerful. as a senior senator from new york, he control canned the new york customs house fs which was the largest federal office in the united states and controlled 70 president of the -- 70% of the country's customs revenue. conkling tightly controlled patronage within his state, and he expected complete and unquestioning loyalty. in fact, his apartment in new york was known as the morgue. conkling was enraged when his candidate, former president grant, didn't get the nomination. but he was apoplectic when he realized that he couldn't control garfield. to conkling, the attempt on garfield's life was his ticket back into power. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> you've been watching booktv, 48 hours of book programming beginning saturday morning at 8 eastern through