>> afternoon i am president of the international science association and co-chair of the book committee for the fourth annual tucson festival of books. mike co-chair is here in the audience you will see more of heard good work down the hall. this is one of several of programs to we broadcast live and streaming somewhere else. i want to give a warning

because we will talk about blood and guts and transferred duran and mayhem and sexual perversion and medical malpractice. you may think you have to into a reality show or a presidential primary debate. [laughter] don't touch the dial. we will talk about serious science. deborah, is that my far left. other of the killer of little shop birds and also have holly. these books are of history and true crime. serious issues of human

frailty and personal courage and perseverance with science and researcher. to start with the oldest cryer first back to france where there is the first transfusion of blood from the calf to a well-known madman in paris but fortunately it failed and touched off of coltrane and political debate that ran for two centuries and repercussions evert -- even today. of officer of the will work is called holly tucker with the

medicine health and society with a specially of medicine. her book a wonderful narrative was just nominated for the "l.a. times" book award, awarded on april 20th science and technology nonfiction. tell us about this book starting off on our historical tour. >> 84 the chance to be here to be with two fantastic authors i started to write this book several years ago primarily as the study of the history of blood and took a life of its

own pry noticed through research that the first pled transition to equates in the 17th century as a response to blood circulation by william harvey and then people wanted to test the idea so they started to put plywood liquor, booze, opium, of no, no water coming into the veins of dogs the ada is blood of early medicine you think lancet and bloodletting. it made no sense to the mind they had to test the idea and they tested the earliest predecessors lycopod critiques that blood did not circulate

but a product of the digestive system. went into the system it was purified by the liver and it may go one way trip up to the heart and the blood was burned off. when harvey came up with the adr that the blood circulated, it was revolutionary. they started to reject all those liquors into the veins of animals. because the second was of

butcher to see what would have been and the third is the transfusion of the calf blood they thought it would slow down the tumors. he died. no surprise. what interested me specifically the court case all said the transfusion is was called up on murder charges the first example of malpractice.

of the french courts looked at the case and in appeals it was determined there was a murder but rather the three unnamed physicians have a hand to please send them bad man. typically they say what in the world? did not look at the murder but the transfusion after the case was tried then it petered out entirely in england. they say of course, because it was before and is the share. what in the rubber they doing? that is not the story but why would to read positions be interested to put a man to death? i found the answers are interesting and science was

going to far. one of the best early murder mysteries you can find. >> we will come back so you can ask questions. now to lou job ahead two centuries in france let's go to the book of a serial killer and the beginning of forensic medicine with douglas starr and "the killer of little shepherds" all speakers are colleagues of mine is why do have a bias. [laughter] but he is a longtime friend and veteran journalist now co-director for science and medical writing and has written for magazines from "sports illustrated" to the

smithsonian. the previous book was made into a pbs special and also will book the board and the current book is an award winner receiving the golden dagger award for the best nonfiction crime story. tell us about the basis of this book. >> by the time of was finishing this book i was having nightmares on a regular basis. [laughter] previous book involved in the history of medicine. i was in the basement of harvard medical school call-in -- take came across the case that was a real

killer killed twice as many people but nobody knows about him because he was caught. then one of the forensic sciences -- scientist today. now to of the good fortune to find a protagonist in new york city to appeal to american audience i had to go to france to find the people. at the time forensic science was unknown but the french and austrian and germans practically invented it. mrs. good guy vs. bad guy. bob they developed the techniques that use the id "c.s.i." except dna the profit logical killer is on the loose. the reason people like turn-of-the-century books many concerns we have now are present then. the widening gaps that have

and have not and the emerging middle-class. tabloid newspapers, en department-store scavo munn people felt crime was on the rise all but was not. capital punishment debates, good to stories as they developed this finance and madman on the loose in france prefers to serial killer caught by scientific techniques. the first trial had the insanity defense. when they found him and guilty to take him to the guillotine dissection of his brain was the biggest controversy in europe because people thought there should be a structure in the brain to call somebody to do something so insane.

this is the two stories of developing the science, the serial killer and the science developed as a result. we get to the nightmares later. [laughter] >> now we jump ahead to the 20th century when forensic science was still in its infancy and in the book "the poisoner's handbook" bad scions sloppy detective work made it almost as a good crime to cut away with murder. deborah will talk about in the beginnings how a very brilliant and dedicated public servant chief medical examiner and toxicologist developed forensic scientist -- scions.

now her paperback is about to. we're happy to welcome her back. >> i should start by thanking the tucson festival of books and it is a pleasure to be here. my book is said to in the united states. i would did to tell the story. i was interested read take advantage with being in the "c.s.i." h. we believe there are scientist who will help to solve a crime and any crime scene their experts who could help the police who can figure out what happened. but it is a very new science. in the united states we did i even trained people until the

1930's. of the first program was started by my little scientist who were civil servants in new york city trying to build a program. but it was against what was going on in europe. the homo forensic mendelson. i said surely somebody the united states tried to bring that here. it took me four months going through footnotes, archives, met internal documents to eventually find north and to get where. and place started the book and it makes me sound twisted as a professor of of journalism i have always been interested in

boys and. [laughter] i always wanted to look at -- write a book. we live in a world of chemistry. constantly exposed to chemical compounds and most do us no harm. those that do, have to be really clever to figure out a way to unlock the defenses of the body. that is what set me off on the request. i want to do have the handbook of 47. every chapter is a poison. want to tell the story how we could catch a point* it is in killer pritzker at the turn of the 20th century breed did not know how to do that.

this city of the york issued a report saying the prisoner can operate without impunity. i was interested in how we would change that. >> some of you have already answered but why this particular subject, a totally unknown to us, formation of the forensics unit, the prize winner rating about primates, sex, studies. [laughter] why did this popped out to particular in a? >> it makes me sound creepy i said at some point* i will write about poison. i started off with a chemistry major. i am of clients.

i set my hair on fire in the chemistry lab. they had to evacuate they stew some of my brilliant work. i thought i will never survive. [laughter] i eventually came back because i find it fascinating come intriguing. i love to find the stories of our past to find the amazing scientist to affected a paradigm shift and belts -- builds the science of forensics. what could be more seductive to bring these people back to live? then have poison and murderer's throat the story. that is the other thing.

to spend two years telling murder stories could anybody have more fun to? [laughter] >> the notion bringing somebody from the hidden parts of history to give the recognition they deserve this something we share. you find a character. this story needs to be cold. my subject was amazing amazing, brilliant, illiterate amazing, brilliant, illiterate , the other thing that grabbed me is i have been a sherlock holmes band. i thought that would be great to find somebody. i was going through the papers and he was in charge of the graduate thesis. it turns out he was a sherlock holmes fan.

one of his students to the thesis how could this finance the of sherlock holmes in these modern times? also i found the handwritten remarks about what he thought about sherlock holmes. here is a fictional detective the hero of my youth commented on by a scientist detective the hero of my book. but he loved the stories and scientifically inaccurate. an autopsy? what is that. holmes works alone? nobody works alone. we need chemist, bone doctors, entomologist and finally, there is no women in this story. what is it about the british? [laughter] >> what is interesting to me

listening to the of characters that they are a sleuth to find the truth. my characters are interesting because they exemplify a the worst of the scientific research. the year against. showing the time period when the french and english were at each other's throats. other early space race. whoever could get to natures truth could be dominant in their country. some are sneaky and backstabbing. the main character of my book book, i admire him i am amazed by him and also think what in the world rethinking?

the most hubris build character you could find. of man of low birth, could not be admitted into the paris school of medicine. only four noble people. he went to the rival university. [laughter] whatever that's cool is is all they do is drink while. [laughter] they are just stupid. [laughter] that is essentially where john baptiste went to school. he knows he cannot be part of the of the to protect is not stop him from going to paris. you know, the best way to get attention is to do the awp -- opposite that as he did

scientifically the paris school of medicine did not like the adr of circulation and could not imagine that much less than a transfusions of that is the first thing he does on the bank of this then. what he is doing and what he is thinking admire this year will but this is not the macquarie story but the moment riyal the men not being able to imagine a blood transfusion created such a panic and controversy. >> >> one of the great things about research i had no way the of this occurs to you at

that moment? >> at every moment is the glorious celebration of science or human beings. when the of the things that stood out this of title is the of births of forensic medicine and cheering the prohibition era. that did not work very well. there were laws to prevent talked. people drank like a fish during that time. and then that is when it lagos speakeasy was formed and then

been growing up been number torture with moonshine it depends on what you put into the still. if you put in could create you get good whiskey if you put in the would it is very poisonous. during prohibition win people were desperate, they distilled everything. their furniture, sweepings from the furniture factories, anything they could get their hands on and famously the shiner's distilled poison ivy in the winter. [laughter] that country is awash of poisonous alcohol. the u.s. government

deliberately made it worse because the other way they would get alcohol is the boot makers would steal it. by 1926 there were 60 million gallons about cahal stolen to be refined and redistributive by the bootlegger. what the government did to enforce prohibition was required the industrial alcohol makers to add poisons that could not be distilled out. you can still find the formula is. within months there's an epidemic of deaths across the country. they are crusading against this but new york city alone more than 1,000 people were killed by the government alcohol program. the newspapers of the time time, they said the 18th amendment is the only one that

carries said death penalty. people are dying all over the country. and understanding the way policies are made. this the government really protect us? regarding chemical's protect us are their government actions to make that worse? that is something i learned from this book. still trying to figure how to navigate the world. not as if we're not surrounded by substances that are toxic.

to nine to figure out how to answer these questions today. >> i would categorize being denied journalist sell in addition i went to france and went to the courthouse to get crates and crates of records to see those sold documents one moment of discovery with a great great great grandchildren another from another town a very proper woman and the ancestors

recognition and then to have one of those moments about at that moment that have of couple of boxes of his things you plan to be interested, of would you? [laughter] i tell my journalism students there are times when you have to restrain yourself and this is not a time you lunge across the room but you say if it would not be a bother. [laughter] i found interesting things of the great great great grandfather i never would have found. and is a brownout -- bronze paperweight in the shape of a hand. that was the casting of of the male criminal. a couple years later visiting the sun who lives in a

traditional house preserve for his grandfather i found of a door knocker it was the same hand. to study the lingo gasol look at the tattoos and then and then it categorizes thousands and then there was still near where in the box. on each side was a tad too. i said what is this? he thought it would be fun to have the tattoos of the criminals replicated on the dinner where. [l