>> thank you, charles, and they to overcoming. and please join us for a reception. [applause] >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see your online. type the author or book title in the search bar on the upper left side of the page and click search. you can also shoot anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking show on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. ..

>> which included future supreme court justice clarence thomas and future winner of the pulitzer prize in literature, edward jones. it's about 50 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon. i'd like to welcome everybody and start the program, if we could. good afternoon, and welcome. this is certainly a wonderful turnout, and we're very, very happy to have everybody this afternoon. on behalf of the college as well as the holy cross club of greater boston, i'd like to welcome you to this very special monthly runs. i'm greg cahill, class of 1981. thank you for being here as we celebrate the publication of "fraternity" with author diane

brady. an exceptional and accomplished journalist, diane has done all of us a great gift in telling the story of father brooks as well as an extraordinary group of black students and how their time together at holy cross during the late 1960s has helped shape their lives and change the course of history. as one reviewer commented, "fraternity" brings to our attention for the fist time an unsung hero of the civil rights movement. another called the book incredibly inspiring, noting that diane had captured the story not just of a group of amazing black men and their mentor, but of an era. a senior editor at bloomberg "businessweek", diane first wrote about this time this holy cross history in the 2007 article for "businessweek" and has worked since then to expand the story into a book. we're delighted she's here with us today to share her

experiences researching, interviewing and writing "fraternity." ask we're equally -- and we're equally delighted to welcome eddie jenkins, class of 1972, who's right over here to my right who's, naturally, one of the prominent men featured this the book. and i have to, also, kid eddie, of course. he played for both the patriots and the giants -- [laughter] and i don't think he's got the super bowl ring on. i know he had it on in new york last night, but -- [laughter] he also, you know, we were kidding him as to who he might be rooting for, you know, this weekend, and he remarked that he was cut by the giants. [laughter] shortly after he was designated the team's player rep. so -- [laughter] i think he learned leadership

skills, you know, at holy cross as we all know, carried him right on to the nfl. and now it's my pleasure to welcome diane brady who will offer remarks before opening up the floor to questions. welcome, diane. [applause] >> thank you, everybody. and thank you so much for coming to this. i want to see where's, where's mr. cahill sr.? um, oh, thank you, who purchased, by the way, 250 books and distributed them to the entire class of 1949, a compatriot of father brooks', so thank you very much for that. [applause] and i think eddie got tired from showing off the super bowl ring last night and is officially, in fact, rooting for the patriots. i don't think we actually established that. so i am a very timid giants' fan in this midst, so i will quickly move on to the book itself.

[laughter] i thought i would just talk a little bit briefly about, um, why this story intrigued me so much, a little bit about the reporting process and, you know, bring it forward to today because i think a that's what intrigues me and then just open the floor to questions. i will admit, first of all, i am, sadly, not a holy cross grad which as somebody thought just naturally that i must be an alumnus of the school to know the story. the way i came across the story was stan grayson, one of the men in the bookment we were just having -- book. we were just having a lunch, and it was the same day ted wells was a front page story in the times. he was representing scooter libby at the time, so going way back. and he started to talk about his class mates, the other black class mates, he started to talk about father brooks, and i was intrigued. clarence thomas was one of those class mates, and i had not read much about the interaction

between justice thomas and father brooks. so that just got me intrigued. i'm a business journalist, it was not a classic business story, but i'm always interested in leadership, i'm always interested in mentoring. and it took quite a while to get justice thomas to speak with me. i think in part because he didn't necessarily trust the agenda that i had which was i would like, in fact, to talk about 1968-'69, '70, those years. and what amazed me was when i did go in to see him, the depth of passion that he had for holy cross, the feelings and the emotions he had about father brooks. i'm not sure who was at his presentation last week when he got his honorary degree, but that came up again. i think when you contrast how he feels about holy cross versus what he has said about his experiences at yale, there's a profound difference, and i think one of the big differences was his class mates, and it was the

way he felt treated at the college and certainly the way he felt treated by father brooks. and so i, basically, just set out to do an article. i decided that it was, in fact, grounds for a book, and i have to say this being my first book project i went on all sorts of directions that, ultimately, didn't work, one of which was lots of history of the jesuits. publishers said, no, enough of that. a lot about the history of worcester which it took me a while to pronounce like everybody else who's not from the area, worcester. and ultimately, it came town to the story of -- down to the story of these five men and father brooks. and one thing it meant was, unfortunately, i also a lot of the people i talked to, i had to diminish their roles in the books. i had to take names out because, again, my editor said, you know what? i'm getting confused keeping track of all these people.

focus on these men, focus on the fraternity they formed, and use that as a microcosm for what they experienced at holy cross and what was being experienced across the country at that time. i think that there were a couple of things that i tried to be careful not to do. one was heighten the drama too much with fake love interests and dialogue. but, no, i think the main thing that was important to me that holy cross was both special and unique, but it was a microcosm of what was happening in the country at that time. i am not american. i actually grew up in scotland. i am half catholic, but brady's a very handy name to have when you're reporting at holy cross. [laughter] you know, i was always intrigued by this period. i was born in the late '60s and never really fully understood kind of the emotions of the time that the book opens right after dr. martin luther king has been killed.

sial father brooks -- also father brooks intrigued me as somebody who was a pioneer who went out there and, basically, circumvented the admissions process. he was very controversial, as you know, those of you who have read the book and you know him, he's a very strong-willed man and, basically, went out in a car with jim gallagher, drove to the schools, personally interviewed a lot of these men. not the men who came in through other means such as eddie who came in through an athletic psychological roarship -- scholarship, and i think is there -- oh, am i popping my ps? can everybody still hear me? probably better. so, you know, and then sat in a coffee shop one night and decided who was going to get in, the two of them, and then he presented a bill to father sword who was the president at the time. it was $80,000 which for a

college that had about a million dollars in endowment at the time was, you know, quite a cost to bear. but what he was looking for, i asked him, you know, how do you decide? anybody who's a parent in the room knows that intelligence is not necessarily something that is a hallmark of success, it doesn't necessarily lead to success. and when you talk to father brooks, he was looking for leadership qualities, he was looking for drive. he was looking for people who had a work ethic, people who were hoping to reach beyond their grasp, black and white. and as you may or may not know, he was also fighting at the time to get women into the college. sadly, for the class of '72 i think they did not arrive until the fall of that year, and that was after father brooks became president and said he managed to shake up the trustee board a little bit and get some people on there that did finally pass, um, a resolution to let women into the college. so i think that when i look at

this story, and i'll take your questions, i think what really struck me is when i look at today is, first of all, the network. and it's the network of these men. it's called "fraternity" because this is not about one man, a priest, a theology professor, later a dean, later a president who went out to save a group of men. these are men who were highly motivated, highly accomplished who were being given an opportunity they would not have had probably two, three years earlier. there were african-american students at holy cross, but they tended to be one or two a year, in some cases one. they, and as art martin would say, one would come in on an athletic scholarship, one would come in through the catholic outfit, and that was it. this was a group of 20 men. clarence thomas transferred after dropping out of is -- out of the seminary, so it was the first time they had critical

numbers on campus. and what i think happened was father brooks and the college never veered on academic standards. all of them had to work as hard, harder in many cases, you know, than i think ted wells and be clarence thomas tended to close down the library at night according to everybody i talked to. but i think where he did make concessions was socially, and he understood how difficult it was. he gave them a bsu van. the college paid for a station wagon for them to get off campus as often as they could. he paid be for them to have of a bsu. he allowed them to live together on a black corner which was very controversial. i know we have one of the editors of the crusader at the time, and be i remember reading a lot of the articles that were, basically, you know, students were very upset about this almost recession regaition, they called it. but he understood it was

difficult, and he made concessions, and when i talked to the men, it was the idea that at the very highest levels of the college they understood that people cared about their success. they understood that people had faith in them, and they understood that with father brooks there was always an open door. he had that philosophy, i think, for the 2,000 students who were there. many people here feel very close to father brooks. i'm sorry he's not with us today. he was with us last night, and he was certainly in worcester last week for clairmings thomas' -- clearns thomas' event. but when with i talk to father brooks today, he just wants leaders, and he felt the college was missing out on being the best institution in this country by not reaching out and getting leaders from all parts of society; women, black, white, asian. i know holy cross has made great strides in diversity. certainly, there have been a very strong generation of leaders of women. i met jane roberts who was in the first class and many other women who were pioneers there.

but when i look at today, i think one thing that's interesting is there's been great success, great faith in terms of what's happened with african-americans. ted wells, i know, went on to harvard. some of his class mates there include ken frazier of merck, a lot of highly accomplished men from that generation. but i think there's also a lot of disappointment, and there's a lot of disappointment at what's happened with the black middle class in this country, what's happened with education and the e erosion of opportunities. frankly, i think what also happened in terms of some of the decisions some of which have been made by justice thomas in terms of, you know, opportunities, affirmative action and such. and a sense that the next wave for this generation is going to be financial. it's going to be encouraging entrepreneurship, it's going to be basically giving people the tools to start their own businesses and to inspire the

same -- i think that's my phone -- inspire the same generation of leaders that came out there. and i think in closing before i take any questions one thing i want to say is another thanks to the holy cross community because one thing that this reportings process has really reinforced to me is the strong fraternity and the power that this school has had. it's got one of the highest levels of giving which is amazing, especially people for canadian university. we just don't give, we're like the government will do it. [laughter] but holy cross, when i look, when i look at the networks that have been formed, the friendships, the power of the cross as they call it and the way that people support each other and love each other across the generations, i think it's very inspiring, and it's also, to me, a testament of how leadership really happens in this country. it happens everywhere else. and i think the support and the love that people have shown for

father brooks through this process, that they've shown for these men and an appreciation for how difficult it was to be pioneers on that campus, um, i hope is a story that we will continue to come back to again and again. as a reporter, i have to say given the support i got from holy cross i want every story from now on to be based on the holy cross campus. [laughter] so thank you very much. thank you, again, for supporting the book. i don't think it does justice to the period, to these men or to father brooks, but i hope that at least it's a start and that others will come forward and, you know, continue to tell the story. so thanks again. [applause] and i guess i'll now take questions. and, you know, eddie is here who is a very busy man not just because you're going to the super bowl, but if you have questions for eddie before he lees, you know, if you want to just -- he can come up, but feel free to also ask questions of him because i know this is, these are -- it's their story,

not mine. does anybody have any questions they'd like to ask? >> thanks very much, diane. i know that we'll have lots of questions. that's terrific. i did want to just mention that c-span is here today, and this is being filmed, and it will be shown at a future date. so we're going to pass the microphone around is what i'm trying to say, and if everybody would speak into the microphone so that we can get it -- >> give with your name. look at the camera. >> that would be great. [laughter] and i can't help but remark about if the fraternity -- "fraternity" because in the jesuits, we don't have fraternity -- >> that's true, that's true. >> but we do feel that we are a fraternity in many ways. who's first? eddie, oh, good. >> eddie. >> first of all, i'd like to thank diane for chronicling this very special experience for us, the people who lived for it, but before i even begin to tell you about my assessment of last night, i'd like to recognize a pioneer who was one of those

only african-americans who was at holy cross for an extended period of time. bob creegel, could you stand up, please? amazing track star, continues to do great service with me at urban edge, i'm a member there, and bob does great work in the area of affordable housing. [applause] last night we got together about 3 1:30, and we were at ted wells' house, and you know ted, ted loves to be close to his job which is on fifth avenue above st. patrick's cathedral. and can we were looking down on st. patrick's cathedral, and we all stood at the window with stan grayson, and we're looking back, and he says 40 years later what did we do that was so special that not only people remember us, but put our picture on the cover of a book? and so, you know, so we thought about it, and we said i know i gave you that quote last night --

>> and it was a good quote. >> but it was within a book that someone took home. i actually had a book to be signed, and someone actually took it. but that's all right. the holy cross community would never do anything like that. [laughter] but in the book, i mean, i had a quote from martin luther or king, and martin luther king said you look at the measure of a person not at the times when they stand in comfort and convenience, but you look at them when they stand in the moment of crisis. and that was our moment of crisis. of it was the vietnam war, it was the civil rights movement. and if you remember yourself those times, do you remember what you did? i mean, many of you watched those reports on television, and you figured that, you know, the reports were enough. some of you after riots actually even read the commission report where he talked about two societies were develop canning, one white, one black and one

rich and one poor, and they were becoming further apart. and some of you even put your toe in and maybe did a little something. but for those of you who actually took the plunge and lost the sense of security, you actually jumped in the river. and when we walked out, we jumped in the river. we did not know where we were going to end up. and those turbulent currents of racism and cynicism were pulling at us through the community which said just let 'em leave. we don't need 'em anymore. but we continued to swim and, more importantly, father brooks continued to swim and he said it's not important that they jumped out there, it's important that we get them to the other side. and because we got to the other side, the river that was formed was the river of our hearts where love overcomes racism. and that's the part that i challenge each and every one of you, that there are additional rivers that you must plunge in today. diane talked about the economic crisis and i would add to that

the incredible number of african-americans that are in jail today. more in jail than in college. and that we have an extraordinary problem in america we have to address. so there are more rivers. don't just look at us as some memorial, some old guys that did something great 40 years ago. that was our river, this is your river, and now's the chance to jump in. thank you very much. [applause] >> i can't, i can't top that. [applause] you know, the other thing that i think was interesting which came up last night and has come up with clarence thomas as well as, you know, what has happened to the catholic school network, the high school network, the elementary school network especially in the cities, you know, people say the charter schools have come in to, you know, perhaps fill the void there, but i think there's a real sense of loss. certainly, i think these men feel it, a lot of people feel it that this was a real steppingstone for a lot of urban families to get their kids the

type of education, the type of discipline, the type of values that would help to make them leaders in society. and i think there's a certain wistfulness that that network is not as strong as it was, you know, perhaps when they were students and a feeling of maybe would there be some way to make it stronger again. so that certainly has come up as a theme as well. does anybody have any questions? go ahead. oh, i guess we have to wait for the microphone, is that right? for -- >> yeah, just raise your hand. >> and you have to sing a song first. no. >> hi. >> hi. >> my name's dean mann, and i was a student at the time things happened in the book. i haven't read the book yet -- yet -- but a couple questions. is there anything in the week about the impact of -- in the book about the iml pact of what was going on on the white students? and i say that because it was a positive influence on me. i remember playing cards in the cafeteria with clarence, i

remember working on the breakfast program with eddie jones, i remember just drinking beer with joe wilson at night, and the friendships you developed and how it impacted later on. i'd like to, you know, also mention that what father brooks did was not just for the black students. i was from a low income family in brooklyn, and he did is same for me. >> yeah. >> can and that changed my life. and after holy cross i then went and worked six years in africa. i'd like to say that the combination of those experiences gave me that kind of direction. >> yeah. and i think that came up as a theme. i'm going to actually -- >> but i have -- >> go ahead. >> -- another comment or question. >> uh-huh? >> it was something that came up when we were, like, freshmen, we became aware of which annoyed us and bothered us, and i'm wondering if that came up too. it was the "sports illustrated"

article about -- >> about jack donahue? yeah, that does come up in the book because stan grayson is one of the men and, obviously, was deeply affected -- it was a "sports illustrated" article where, basically, jack donahue who was the basketball coach at the time at holy cross, um, i believe called -- >> he had been -- >> he had been -- >> coach of power. and so they recruited him to holy cross hoping -- [inaudible] >> yes. karim abdul-jabbar. >> right. >> and, you know, he had made some racist comments, and so that does come up as a moment in the book, certainly and stan talked about the interaction he had with coach donahue over that incident. but i will, you know, i know your time's tight, eddie, so i don't know if you want to talk about that, but i think certainly one of the themes that has come up is that, you know, father brooks understood that this was not something that was simply just good for these students. he felt it was good for the college. he felt it was good for the

other students there, and i think it's telling the books that were assigned to those of you who were there at the time. one of them was, i think in '6 of art martin was saying the autobiography of malcolm x was one, poverty in america by one of your fellow alumnus, michael harrington. so i think that was very much a theme, but i'm going to let eddie address it because he knows better than me. >> what's your first name? dean, in my opinion, not only jumped into the river, you swam the nile. [laughter] is brian cannell here? >> here. >> brian was one of the white students that walked out with us. so i'd like brian to tell his own story. >> yep. and also the black corridor was, in fact, i think only three-quarters black because there were not enough black students to fill the black corridor, so that was -- >> three minutes or less. >> yes, yes. [laughter] >> thank you.

yeah, i think dean's point is that we all gained great deal from being at holy cross during this time of change, meeting people from different backgrounds. i played football for one week and busted my helmet, and jeff dickerson was my roommate. so we got along. so sophomore year we decided to room together, and we were up on huey four? huey four. and i recall one interesting story. i shared this with father mcfallon. jeff dickerson's dad, i think, was an architect. and i didn't know that architects carried marbles. and next door was a jesuit priest, father o'connor, and i think he was a resident manager of the buildings or architect. and he had marbles. and i remember a day they were

both kneeling down on the noor in our room roll -- on the floor in our room rolling marbles. and i thought, well, this is pretty cool. my mother was a marble champion in, like, 1935. laugh so i could relate to this, but i didn't realize. so that's the kind of thick concern. >> the walkout. [laughter] >> just warming up. >> that's right. enough with the happy memories. >> it was very difficult. we felt that there had been too many, all of the black students had been identified and only a fraction of the white students who took part in the ge demonstration, so we felt that there was overt racism, and we were going to support all the students. and i remember it was very tumultuous thinking what am i going to do? i'm walking out, how am i going

to explain this to my parents? you know, what's going to go on? but then over that weekend the people realized how important it was, and father brooks and ted and clarence -- >> not clarence, art. >> art, art martin all got together and, you know, discussed this and talked to the truce tees and eventually -- trustees, and eventually they worked everything out. but it was just, you know, a traumatic time, a powerful time. we all learned from it, um, and i happened to be -- one last vignette. i happened to be on the college judicial board my senior year, and there was a demonstration on campus, and students could have other students represent them in the disciplinary hearing. and so we had several great students; john telvaccio

represented someone, and ted wells represented the student who got in trouble. and all i could think of afterwards was, holy -- i hope i never have to face ted on the other side. [laughter] but he represented. he's very intense, and years later i saw him, you know, on so many different venues. >> and he says that was the start of all his pro bono work. [laughter] that he never quite recovered from the idea of not getting paid -- >> thank you very much for your time. >> i think there was another question over here. >> eddie, don't go away. you can sign this one too. my question is for the students who were, like eddie, a freshman in college going through the process, you've got father books

who is an intense guy making the pitch to come to holy cross, what was it like for your parents having to contemplate something that was probably very, very difficult to even think of in 1968? >> well, and i think it'll be interesting because you had several options, eddie, as well. so you talk to ed jones, it was the only school that both let him in and ghei -- gave him money, and i think eddie was mulling over several choices, holy cross not being your p top. >> can i tell you this quick story? so i go down south -- oh, kathy! do you know who this is? kathy -- >> this is pg-rated tv here. >> her husband not only one of the finest basketball players in holy cross history -- >> buddy, who's in the book. >> yeah, he was a great man and just glad to have you here. [applause] and iffy of you have relatives that you want to do, like, the

executive program at the harvard business school, this is the lady to see, okay? so i thought i was really good, really fast. coming from new york we were all-american, so forth and so on. so i go down to florida a&m, and they're interested in me. so we all line up, and he says, hey, the first three, four players that win this race, they're going to get scholarships. so we line up, and we're running, we're running, and i take off the first 30, 40, i'm killing everybody, right? people start passing me, and i end up, like, finishing last. and i say, god, who were those last four or five people? they said, those are people in the band. [laughter] i don't know if you've seen the marching 100, but the band was that was. so i didn't get a chance to go to florida a&m, but thank god they didn't have a fast band at holy cross. anyone else? [laughter] i've done my job, look? i've got to go because this new

job i have, dye can tell you, i've just been appointed the new diversity and civil rights at the department of transportation. so got to go do my job before the board. but thank you for everyone here for sharing, for sharing our lives with us. [applause] >> thank you, eddie. and he will wave to us from the super bowl if you're watching on sunday. so with ted. ted will be there, too, on the p opposite side. so go ahead. >> my name's jim, i'm in the class of 1970, i'm here with bernie kelly and my class and jim bali. i was one of the two students on the college judicial board for the walkout, and so i sort of saw it from the other side. and, of course, the first thing i did when i bought your book was look in the index, and i wasn't in there. [laughter] >> you were one of the names taken out. you're in the archives. like, who's that? wait, develop his character more. i can't. >> but the process that went

through it, there was a serious hearing. we cross-examined the event, mr. shea i think his name was, and he was out there. he was in the open, and we went at him. and then when we got into deliberations, it was really the two students against the administration, and the faculty, and the decision was made over the two objections of the two students. i think we wrote a dissent, but i can't recall that for sure. but the drama was just so intense, and then as you said, that ended at 3:00 in the morning. we went home, came back and this had happened which was just such a brilliant move. but it was incredibly intense. and the book, i haven't gotten through the whole book yet, but it was great in bringing that back. >> well, and i think what was interesting is, you know, father sword that this was, in fact, what they had done was a clear violation of college policy. and so technically, according to

a policy that had just been passed even days before i think, specifically to avoid this type of situation, they had broken the laws. and so it's interesting, um, you know, what it was that really bothered these men was the fact that it was the organizers, specifically the organizers of the sds or the rsu i think it was called at the time -- >> right, right -- >> and these random black students who happened to be with, hey, there's a demonstration, i'll show up crowd that would probably show to a lot of demonstrations, cared about the war and such. so that was -- father brooks clearly thought as racism you protested, but i think just getting people to understand that, you know, the difference between the letter of the law and sort of the spirit of what was happening. i think one thing that comes through, i hope, in the book is that this wasn't a tactical move where they thought, well, you know, we'll just get them to come back. these men really thought they were, essentially, abandoning their education and knew full

well that many of them would not have other options. clarence thomas, for one, knew he couldn't go home because he'd been kicked out for having left the seminary. >> there was, the ore focus in that -- the other focus in that hearing the fact was not only was it the four black students that were chosen, but it was also the leaders of all of the political groups in the school. and clearly what the dean's office, and i think the dean admitted that at the hearing was that they picked out the people that they knew, the leaders. and there were many people in that corridor, but they picked out the ones who were the leaders and with the sense that -- >> opportunity to get them off campus. >> exactly, exactly. >> yeah. no, i think it's a very dramatic time, and i think it was, you know, it just crystallized -- it certainly, i think, was what made the relationship with father brooks so strong because he personally fought very hard to bring them back and to get the college to reverse it decision. >> well, it's a great book. thank you. >> thank you.

>> aye got a question -- i've got a question, diane. what was it like interviewing the gentlemen? were they all cooperative? did everybody buy into this right away? what was it -- >> you know, i think, well, interesting. as i said, justice thomas was challenging, and when we first met, the first thing he said to me was, um, the problem with your industry is that, you know, journalists lie. [laughter] and i said, oh, thank you for having me. [laughter] but you know what? i think that, um, i did not come in with any strong agenda about clarence thomas. i know some people -- i don't, again, have the history. he then proceeded to give me three and a half hours of his time, had met with me since then, and the warmth that he showed, theceps of humor that i had not seen necessarily in public settings took me by surprise and, also, i think the, um, how -- like, very specific

memories of holy cross and very warm memories. what was surprising is those of you who have read his book, he wrote memoirs, "his grandfather's son," he spends very little time on holy cross. i think it's like four pages. very little time. and dismisses out of hand the way he was then. you know, considers himself a radical who has, you know, changed and transformed. i think what became clear through this process, and i'll move to the other men, was that he -- i think, actually, shares many of the views that he did, in fact, have at that time and feels a closeness to these men that continues today. um, he and ed jones were very close through gil hardy who died, those of you who know gil, and i think that i, i think part of this process in recent years is he has reconnected with the college. and i'm hopeful that the book was part of that. but i think it shows a more kind of nuanced side of to what

formed clarence thomas, and i think he understands and appreciates holy cross at this point in his life much more deeply than he might have even several years ago. the other men were generally cooperative, you know? ed jones is not a wild extrovert and is a brilliant writer, so writing about somebody who's won a pulitzer prize for literature is intimidating, to say the least, but very, very deep memories. and i think in many ways many of the issues that he fought for then he thinks continue unabated today. ted wells is a lawyer through and through and was very -- there's a difference between writing an article and writing a book. and so there was some discussion with him and stan when i suggested the idea of a book. it was like, well, that -- all of a sudden a book, you know, you start getting into girlfriends and relationships and, you know, problems with mother and everything else. and which he didn't have, by the way. ma wells was wonderful. but i think he wanted to make sure it was accurate.

and so i did, you know, make sure that whatever, that everything was accurate. one thing i did was i had, i didn't really go heavy on the dialogue because there were disputes over what people said, and i think it's just natural that there's revisionist history, so you try to get multiple, you know, multiple points of view on what happened at a certain time, how people behaved. at the same time, you can't give them complete approval to just, you know, go through and take out whatever they don't like because that, essentially, strips the book of a lot of the interesting details. so all of them were cooperative. i think they were very generous, and i think the reason, um, was father brooks. certainly for clarence thomas, the reason he did this, the reason he came back to the college was because of how strongly he feels about father brooks. so -- >> great. >> hi. >> hi. >> just a couple of comments.

i was class of '77 at holy cross. >> all women. you get to see the women all the way through. [laughter] >> that's right, that's right. which was an interesting addition. it really helped us grow significantly. but i guess a couple observations with regard to the black corridor. i was struck by the fact that how few both black and white students had very little interaction. coming from places like d.c., philly, some of the, you know, heavy inner city areas a lot of the black folks had very limited interaction, and a lot of the white folks had very little interaction. and i think it created an awkwardness that really, you know, i think the school's attempt to navigate through that, but there was still, you know, a fair amount of work to do because i think there was a general sense among black students that the burden was on them to reach out and not necessarily in the other direction.

the second point, i guess, that i would make is wr5d with regard to an emerging black middle class at the time that a lot of this stuff was happening. i think the world looked very different from an industry standpoint. the general motors of the world, you know, i grew up in western new york, and that was a big part of our lives there, and it helped, you know, promote unskilled workers into the professional ranks, and people were sending their kids to college. but given what's going on right now economically, i guess i'm more concerned as my kids head to college and some are still on their way about what happens with some of the diversity objectives. and what's the way forward, i guess. >> well, it's interesting, and i think it's an excellent point because i actually wrote an article about this recently, and it was looking at the fact that this generation, you know, your generation, that the fight was for integration. and, in fact, there had been a

lot of entrepreneurship in the black community in part because it was necessary, you know, under jim crow you had the black dentist, the black hair dresser, black businesses serving black consumers. one of the things that's interesting to me right now is that as a group -- of the new businesses that have been started in the united states, 25% of them have been started by hispanics, latino entrepreneurs. as a group, african-americans have lagged. and i think one reason is because of integration there are some cultural issues as to starting businesses, access to capital. and a lot of, you know, with the unemployment rate, i think a lot of very, you know, highly accomplished african-american college graduates went into the mix sector, and we know do public sector is -- and we know the public sector is shrinking, will continue to shrink, and one reason they went there, those are jobs that are posted. it's not the how did that guy

get that job, these are jobs that they could compete for in an open basis, and i think that's been -- it's wreaked incredible havoc on the middle class, but it's an issue i know reverend jesse jackson has made a priority, it's an issue that ted thinks about, eddie thinks about, and there's a lot of focus right now on how do you sort of bring back where the jobs are going to be which is small business, entrepreneurship and, frankly, silicon valerie? valley? there's been a lot of talk on that, so it's a different world. thank you. i think that might be it. >> who else is here from the late '60s perhaps or mid 'of 'of -- '60s that want to reminisce is ate -- a little bit? >> i don't know if we want to reminisce. quick, reminisce. >> ed joyce.

>> hi, i'm ed joyce, class of '71. and one of the interesting things of this to me having been there, and a couple other people mentioned they were on the college judicial board. i think i was on in between you, and i think part of what came out of this was, was the college took the position that if an incident happened and, um, there was a racist civil rights element to it, it would be considered as a defense in future, in future judicial proceedings. and i was on the board in the first one of those, and it was very difficult to deal with this issue. it was an issue where i think most of the white students on campus didn't think it was a racial issue, but most of the black students didn't. and you're on this college judicial board as one of the two student representatives with some faculty members and

administrators, and you try to deal with this because you know that the black student involved clearly thought that there was a racist issue, and you knew that almost everybody else on the campus didn't think it was. and you had to deal with that. we got through that. the most interesting part of that to to me was -- that was actually the first situation where ted wells was the, was the defense counsel. and i'm a lawyer now and sort of look back at that being the judge, seeing ted wells handle this situation. and one of the defense witnesses was clarence thomas. so you're sitting there, now i'm looking back 40 years, and for those who don't know, ted wells is one of the most prominent litigators in the country. >> he is. he was lawyer of the year, i think, a couple years ago. >> yeah. really a very prominent person and, obviously, know about clarence. so to be in a situation where you're observing this, even then ted was incredibly impressive.

i mean, he really was impressive. i think he was a year behind me, so he was maybe a sophomore or junior at this time. but just to deal with i won't call it a repercussion, but what came out of the blacks leaving campus and the rest of the community trying to deal with it, you know, we got through it, and it worked out okay, but it was a very difficult time. >> yeah. and you forget how passionate people were. and also, i think, um, when we talk about our college days, we tend to put ourselves mentally back there and forget that, you know, these were kids. they were 18-year-old, 19-year-old kids, and the judgments that you make at 18 and 19 are quite different, the emotions you feel and, um, some of the things they asked for bordered on ridiculous, frankly. you know, especially when the muslim students came to look at the grocery lists of what they expected the college to buy right down to particular brands of tea that couldn't be purchased in the boston area. that's kind of what kids --

that's what they do. you push, push, push, see how far you can get. so, you know, there were, in fact, i think the black students took over another building in their senior year and ran into another group that was protesting, and they had to divide up who got to do their sit-in where. so it was just the times and i think it was difficult s and i think not in every case can you say that they were always on the right side. in this case i think they were, and father brooks did, and i think history shows they were, but there were many incidents where they did things that, frankly, the college should have fought back and said, okay, enough already. but i think, you know, when i look back at this time, i -- first of all, it's such an amazing moment in history. everything from even the fact that the entire football team came down with hepatitis, a case that ended up be being written up in the 23457bd journal of medicine. you had the vietnam war, you had

women, many different groups that were fighting to get an equal slice of the pie and to get a chance to see this microcosm with this group of men who happened to do very well. there were men who did not do very well with. those of you in the class know there were men who dropped out. african-american men, white men. not everybody makes it at college, and that was a particularly tough time to go to college, and many of them were coming to a white college for the first time and discovered that they were, in fact, not prepared. bob deshay i mention in the book, those of you who know him, was the top student by far at his school in savannah, came and discovered he was of not prepared for chemistry. wasn't anything to do with intelligence. he had simply not gotten a curriculum that prepared him for the curriculum he had to face at holy cross. and that sort of thing happened again and again. but i think a chance to look at that period and to look at father brooks and to look at the network that's been formed at the college again and again, i think, is a story right now that i hope is inspiring to this

generation who might not necessarily remember that period in history, and i hope to future holy cross generations as well. so thank you so much for having me here. thank you for your support of the book. and, um, you know, i look forward to, i hope, hearing more stories as i go on and meet more of you. so thanks again. [applause] >> thanks very much, diane. that was really terrific. and certainly puts it all in perspective as we reflect as a community on an important era in time in the holy cross history. and certainly the determination of father brooks, certainly his leadership has meant an awful lot not only to those talked about in the book, but many of

us here in the room. and i can't help but just tell this one little vignette that perhaps the last time father brooks was here, um, a young woman asked, well, father, what was the talk down in the jesuit residence when the college, when the vote was taken to go coed? and he paused very, very briefly, and without hesitation replied: well, we thought we'd all died and gone to heaven. [laughter] so he's meant an awful lot to an awful lot of people and just recently, just as recently as yesterday there was an op-ed piece in the boston grope. if any -- globe. if any of you missed it, it was a great piece about father brooks in yesterday's globe. so i'd certainly like to thank the harvard club for everything they did today, mike shanahan, pedro who's my assistant over against the wall, appreciate everything you did very much. tom, kristin, christine, thank you very much for coming down from the college and being so

helpful and to c-span for everything you've done as well. and finally, books will be available for purchase, and diane's here to sign the books. once again, that will be back in the room where we had the buffet. and there's lots of things going on at the local club level, so check the holy cross web site. in particular there's a great raffle right now, i think, for a big trip, a major trip. so it's a great opportunity to support the club. and we'll look forward to seeing you again in march. thanks. thanks very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> um, i just want to tell you a little bit about how this book came to be, and then i'm going to read a chapter from the book. um, in 2009, september of 2009 a

week that i had -- a book that i had written about my own father and his cons and his deceptions came out, and i was reading from it at a bookstore much like this one, and backstage signing books a woman approached me and be said, you know, i can't believe you're here, i can't believe your story and introduced herself as the fiance of andrew madoff. that, of course, my jaw dropped. this was a year after the scandal, and it was completely just mind blowing, and i'd been following it like everybody else. and i came to know the family over the course of two years. like so many people that had been following this story, i, of course, thought that andrew was most likely involved, that he and his brother had known all about his father's fraud. i was convinced that ruth had to have known, and it was really only prudent curiosity that sort of brought me into this story. i was a journalist, and i wanted to get to the truth of this story like every other journalist out this and most of the people in the public. and so when it came time that

they were ready to write a book and i sat down with them and was taken into the heart of their story, i was absolutely astonished to find that nothing i thought i knew was true. so i'm just going to read to you from the chapter of the confession itself. and there we'll go. the confession. by 6:50 a.m. andrew and mark were, once again, perched in the conference room behind the trading floor. they shot each other tense, worried looks, periodically breaking the silence to offer a new theory. of one thing they knew, something was terribly wrong. by 8:00 a.m., peter still hadn't arrived. mark shook his head. let's wait at our desks. ruth, according to court filings, had taken out some 15 million in two separate withdrawals from her brokerage account in the prior three weeks. bernie had asked her to move the money so he could use it to coffer redemptions. she did his bidding unquestioningly, something that the media claimed as proof of

her involvement, but then the family moved millions of dollars around all the time, buying boats and apartments, making large wire transfers and multimillion donations to philanthropic organizations. had ruth questioned bernie's directive, andrew said, bernie would have barked at her, and that would have been the end of the conversation. it wasn't until 9:20 a.m. that andrew spotted peter making his way across the trading floor. peter is bernie's brother. um, he signaled to mark, and they hurried into the conference room. as andrew took his seat, he felt the back of his neck grow hot with anticipation. peter stood by the door, his mouth a grim line. i talked to your father, it's bad. he wants to talk to you himself, he said. andrew's stomach dropped. he knew that his uncle tended to put a positive spin on things. the brothers pushed their chairs back and followed their uncle onto the trading floor. they passed their colleagues shouting orders at their desks, a row of administrative offices, a cluster of secretaries, a large conference room. the walk seemed to take forever.

when they arrived at bernie's executive office, they found him sitting behind his desk staring at television set mounted on the ceiling. he didn't greet them or even acknowledge their arrival. andrew and peter took the two chairs facing bernie, mark sat on the couch to the left of his desk. for a few minutes, the four sat in tense silence. i don't know where to start, bernie began. tears started to well up in his eyes. andrew felt a river of alarm rise through his chest. he ambulance glanced at mark -- he glanced at mark. let's not do this right at your main desk, peter suggested, let's move to the table in the corner. the four gathered at the far end of the room where a wall offered a shade more privacy. again, bernie started to talk and couldn't continue. dumb founded, andrew watched his father struggle for words. i can't do this here, bernie finally said. andrew looked at his father feeling as though he had entered, quote, the world of the surreal. what could possibly be so bad

that he couldn't even discuss it at the office? why don't we go to your apartment, andrew suggested. are we all going up there, mark asked? bernie cleared his throat. no. peter, you stay here and run the show while we go up to apartment. peter nodded and left the office. as the three struggled into their winter gear, bernie said to his secretary, eleanor, have lee bring the car around. where the hell are you going, the market is open, eleanor joked. mind your own business, bernie snapped, immediately silencing eleanor who stared at her computer. andrew, mark and bernie rode the elevator down in silence then waited for lee in the vast lobby of the lipstick building. there was no small talk. andrew tried to blend into his surroundings, wishing he could be teleported the to his parents' apartment so he could get whatever was going to happen over with. the anticipation was unbearable. the car pulled up front driven by clive, not lee. again, they rode in silence.

bernie sandwiched between his two sons in the backseat, misty-eyed and shaken, struggling to hold it together as though he'd already received bad news and was trying to cope with it, andrew says. andrew stared at the early christmas shoppers, his brain a dead zone. clyde dropped them off in front of the intras to ruth and bernie's penthouse apartment. the three removed their wet shoes in the foyer. they laid their coats across the banister taking care not to drip water onto the floor. ruth greeted them at the door, her face grim. she, too, had no idea why her husband had rushed home in the middle of the day to talk to her family, but like her sons, she suspected the news was bad, somehow connected to the mayhem on wall street. bernie had called her from the office and said i have something to tell you, i'm coming home with the boys. she'd gotten off the phone shaking and had waited for them in the kitchen. together, the family entered the sitting room a forbidding room

that andrew had never liked with dark leather club chairs and a heavy desk. bernie sat by himself on a large leather sew sofa, ruth sat next to the couch, andrew took the ottoman and mark the desk chair. the four faced one another. i don't know where to start, bernie began again. he started to sob. the firm is insolvent. i'm broke. how is that possible, andrew asked? i don't understand? the money is gone, it's over. i don't understand, andrew repeated. how can that be? we're having an okay year, what happened? is this about the redemptionings? then bernie said something more terrible than they could have imagined. it's all been one big lie. it's a giant ponzi scheme, and it's been going on for years, and i can't keep it going anymore. i can't do it. andrew stared at his father, his mind a jumble of disconnected thoughts and phrases. he was trying to piece together what his father was saying, but the sentences kept evaporating. he grabbed at them, frustrated.

ruth lit a cigarette, her hand shook. what's a ponzi scheme? it mean, the asset management wiz was a fake, andrew said. i've been lying to all of you for years. i've been lying to your mother, to you, to the customers, i've been lying to myself. i have an appointment to meet with ike sorkin on monday, referring to the family lawyer, and i'm probably going to jail. he broke down then, really sobbing. andrew rose from the ottoman, crossed the room and awkwardly draped an arm around his father for a few seconds. at that, andrew started to cry too. he got up and return today the ottoman. through his tears he said, but there was all this money, where did it go? the money is gone. i've got 50 billion in liabilities. his voice trailed off. andrew stopped, 50 million? 50 billion. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. next, historian hugh howard recounts the war of