>> host: what was your area of expertise in the national security council? >> guest: i focused principally on europe, and you may recall that the first term of the clinton administration was a bosnia, the balkans was coming undone. so i basically did everything but the balkans because anyone who touched the balkans disappeared into a black hole. so i spent a lot of time worrying about european union trade relations, the enlargement of nato and dealing with the emergence of central and eastern europe from the soviet bloc, trying to make sure that that transition went well. >> host: and this is the coffer of charles kupchan's new book, "no one's world: the west, the rising rest and the coming global turn." published by oxford. thank you, professor kupchan. >> guest: thank you very much. ..

>> tucson festival of the

books and it is more spectacular this year than it has been before. every year seems to have more and more people and the climate becomes more perfect than it was before. and to be a part of this celebration of literacy and the book. my authors today both from texas. one from dallas and the other from a ft. worth. right next to each other but a big chasm of history tradition and lifestyle separates them. i know that works for the author but jim donovan is in

dallas rupiah's a literary agent and as well as author of the best-seller tester and of the little bighorn. he has a fixation it u.s. soldiers going into somebody else's neighborhood then all killed. [laughter] evidently some place they should not be. and his book is the best account of little bighorn. now turning his attention to it equally famous last and the battle of the alamo. in may will be published "the blood of heroes" the 13-day struggle for the alamo - and the sacrifice that forged a nation" published by little brown.

jeff guinn is the best-selling author of numerous books including the biography of santa claus is that continues to support children. [laughter] and also ~ in the story of bonnie and clyde and his book is "the last gunfight" the real story of the shootout at the o.k. corral - and how it changed the american west" iger say all of american history. my first question only have serious. how these distinguished publishers have gone back to the 19th century? that is an amazing

development. perhaps you can eliminate? >> i am looking forward to hearing this. [laughter] >> a couple of styles of titles. one is descriptive. one is politic, evocative. of course, the subtitle is needed to explain. >> i always prefer the shorter title but those who understand such things believe this subtitle that clarifies or sharpens focus will appeal to a wider audience. how many of you bought a book based on the subtitle? [laughter] how many of you look at the title and the cover?

that is the first scientific study ever conducted. [laughter] we want complete credit for that. >> little brown has a dramatic painting of the battle of the alamo on the cover to grab your attention. while simon & schuster have gone for the more subtle black-and-white photograph. each book deals with the iconographic moment in american history. their cultural icons. we use them in our language. comics use them in jokes. how many have you heard the police officer is acting like wyatt earp?

or the candidate faced in the o.k. corral in louisiana? these events shape our culture and the image of america in the world. why? especially with the o.k. corral? >> it captures a time a way they wanted america to be. everything is simple and clear-cut. and then with the white hats and the black hats. the fascination with the story tries to make history reflect what they wanted to be at the time. i don't think we're old enough except us to remember the cowboy tv movie craze in the fifties when the cold war was syndicating the

world is more complicated and dangerous than we wanted to be. it is nice to imagine american history goes back when everything was well defined a. we knew they heroes and villains. and the event like the o.k. corral or alamo becomes iconic because there is so much ambiguity. or custer for that matter. people who are interested can read the book, visit the site, decide for themselves. it is adopted as a sort of religion. the mythology builds up. the university of arizona wins the cliffhanger basketball game, i am sorry about last night. the coach may say like surprising the o.k. corral.

part of our lexicon and lives. the challenge for writers to break through showing the facts are more fascinating than the mythology. as long as a look history, and learn from it, we have people taking sides and disagree and call each other names. we all take our best guess what happened to. >> 912 weigh in? >> i a agree with everything >> for those of us who like the story who are clear-cut clear-cut, your book will muddy the water because it will muddy the complexity it is not all clear-cut as we

would like it to be. have been grown up with her lancaster now to find out it was not like at at all. i have to go into therapy -- their bff and abuse support everything in the film said tuesday version of davy crockett. >> i don't think there is another story or even to in history more encrusted with smith or legend they and the alamo. i wanted to cut through that and go back to the primary sources. what every historian should do. to get as close to what

happened as i could. the problem with the alamo there are few reliable primary sources. there are a few survivors survivors, one who saw travis by than run back into the room and hid there the rest of the battle. susanna dickerson, the only anglo woman hiding in the church. there were mexican and officer accounts, it was dark. they did not know what was going on inside. the battle was mostly over and could not say i shot

davy crockett. some of them may have, there are two controversies. did travis draw the line in the sand and david pocket to, how did he die? phi tackle both of those in the story. to come down on the controversy on each side. but after he has read that. >> i did at -- and did read that. [laughter] despite the sources that confronted do, you certainly have written a day gripping hand compelling the story that reads much like a novel.

it stands right alongside my previous the favorite alamo book that is now 50 years old. >> of great narrative history of the past. ultimately we have complex stories paul some grand adventure stories. perhaps the story of the alamo have such appeal internationally because they are just granted venturers. that is said genie in the bottle. >> whenever you try to write history that is fact based in stood jumping on mythology, one of the complaints that you get not to cite anybody in protective it -- in

particular is fresh they mr. hutton but it here how i rewind the o.k. corral. not my intent but a nice bonus. [laughter] when we write about these grand adventures it is out of the green and the real to allow them to understand the context of the times, these things do not happen in vacuums. if we can help readers feel they are there come of those living in tucson, do you know, your community is an artistic wonder? is this festival will remind people you are one of the most literary cities but how many will own the associate tucson with gunplay? border disputes?

it is not fair. there is so much more to you. in the case of the last gunfight of the o.k. corral as far as the public is concerned, the last one they can remember. something have -- had to have been. there were conflicting political movements, economic movements, the robust changing, some people were pushing that change, others resisted. there was going to be a conflict at some point* but it to enjoy a 1881 i have been writing about charles manson. [laughter]

1881. if you can understand what brought people to this point*, it not only makes the event itself thrilling, exciting, somethi ng to understand and identify with those who could participate in it. to take in the event to make it real and understandable, they will want to know more about this time and place we tried to put a piece of the puzzle together. we have events that people know something about. not only to know but to understand. bringing you into conflict

with those folks of one way and not another. but it calls for greater understanding. >> very good points. of great historian morrison wrote a history and should observe three tenet separating the accuracy accuracy, object to the, and bigger. and i would add depth of research. my research my subject to death immerse myself in the time to read every primary source. if you do that you find a new information because most writers do not. the little bighorn does not happen two-thirds of the way through the book. the same way about the alamo. if you supply the context to

show how we got to the point*, introduced the characters properly, and showed the argument, the cowboys and the earps and also the mexican side and the techs in size side, that is making it of fuller and more fascinating account. >> the people in texas velo as a creation myth. it is their story how they became the distinct and separate people. living next door in new mexico it is obvious they are distinct and separate from the rest of the nation. [laughter] >> i am from brooklyn originally. [laughter] >> we want to keep it that

way. [laughter] it gives the story power. bartok becomes action in, and decision is made, people reach a dramatic climax. humanity has invented this. don't you think you are blessed by it building to that final moment? >> will live in a society that wants instant gratification. why should have to spend 30 or four days to get to it? but jim cited a wonderful historian, i was books editor 270 years.

the advantage of that is i got to talk about writing with some of the finest authors in the world. i was told the type of history david could not stand reading is the lister. this happened in this year than this year. he said unless you convince your readers these are real people moving toward this moment, it in my case american history, toward the moment, but no reason to read the story. steven ambrose had controversy to the end of his career, was able to prove the american public has an appetite for well britain nonfiction. -- well written non-fiction

his goal of the transcontinental railroad was to help readers understand how did somebody do that? in my books is the third element, why did these have been? defeat bring these together in a logical way to help "the reader" understand how it is building, as jim donovan can do so masterfully come by the two-thirds leading up to the climactic event, makes the last one-third of the book that much more majestic and a greater. for the reason we're grateful to all of you who stick with it. it is page three and nobody is dead. [laughter] telling the whole story

makes the climax that much richer. >> writing about people. the older i get, the more i read. it is so clear whether we read fiction are non-fiction , how many books did he write? >> too many. the most the of these books were just repeats but some of that character so much to put up with to read about them. we like to read about people. otherwise it is a dry a

history textbook. >> people like jim and me never urge try to say it is a definitive subject. we are zero ways learning new things. if you like of books that the right to seek out to then take it further and better. i will be first in line to buy a copy. >> it is important to have the believable path. with "the last gunfight" and "the blood of heroes" you have done that. >> the creation of a

believable past but wyatt earp is a central character in your book, but this is not a why it burped book which surprised me. that you are right teeing about the o.k. corral, the gunfight of westward expansion, the settlement and people involved. >> i am. lighter bids is central character so are his brothers, at the mclaury mclaury, the

shopkeepers, this is the time when people wanted to make something of themselves could go. the louvre were of the frontier is you could go there to become someone. all of these people have that goal. saying hello to my friends who have taken the opportunity to point* out to i am stupid or evil because phi present wider accurately as a man of his time. there are other things and then to write these books i write them to learn. now by thinking i am the been slightly expert.

i want to find all of these things. but these complex people who are part of the old tombstones story. but there are 40 or 50 ventas within the pages of this book that deserve that of their own. and if an 19 to say i did not know that then maybe share that with "the reader." this is not tell wyatt earp biography or of the more than i have updated. many of the people are a part of that. heat is one of them. >> nobody is dead the do

right. they are boring to read about. what he did with the earps, i had experience with custer those who love jim buoyed to death and very disappointed i showed his dark side. the same with the big rocket. into those who not truly one 90%. >> the story of the o.k. corral, doc holliday, overshadows the earps. how did you keep them under

control? he is prominent throughout. >> >> my favorite moment in researching this book involved holiday. we go and with the to regular dentist, the hot head, anybody go to the texas state fair in dallas? go to the hall of records. who want and what? and doc holiday's early career he practiced in dallas texas.

the dallas state fair had competitions for dentist's. [laughter] that is different. for the winner of the best gold tooth competition was doc holliday. he was one hell of a dentist. who knew? [laughter] that should sell 5,000 books itself. he is the colorful character. there are many of them in there. and started to feel nervous he sure got it. >> but with every movie the

best thing is the guy who plays doc holliday. dennis quaid, falcon allmerica munn i am pretty nervous having donovan on the panel. [laughter] we know the last gunfight needs to be in every dentist's office in america. [laughter] >> my agent has not been in there pitching for me. [laughter] >> i don't know. . .

>> he was a strapping six feet back when six feet really meant something and pure muscle and could have taken apart that little runt with his little finger. [laughter] but very interesting character. came from a big family of brothers, they all stuck together, and in his earlier day before the alamo he was a slave trader and land speculator, forged many land titles and claims at one time. if all the land claims he owned had been declared valid, he would have been the largest landowner in texas. that didn't happen, obvious. but he's an interesting character because tremendously fierce, known as the best knife

fighter, of course, on the frontier although, of course, he was very courteous to women. several women mentioned this. and one friend said when he was e angered, his eyes resembled a tiger. now, i don't know exactly what that means, but i don't think it's good. and, of course, he had all sorts of lung problems and interior, inside problems from many things, one of which was the famous or infamous sandbar fight of 1827 where he took three shots from pistols, a bunch of guys were stabbing him, another guy carved him up, and his insides were never the same. >> and either was his attitude. he had some attitudinal issues. probably would have made a good

book agent. [laughter] >> watch out. >> well, of course, the alamo is there because not only is the man killer of the early frontier, the wyatt earp of early frontier history, but, of course, the greatest of all the frontier heros and a truly remarkable american was also there. so you get at o.k. corral you've got doc holliday and wyatt earp, but here you have jim b be owie and davy crockett. he was, after all, a backwoods politician. nevertheless, he had a remarkable career before the alamo. >> davy crockett was actually a genuinely nice guy, i think we can agree on that. >> we can degree on this. >> yeah.

he was a good guy, too honest to be a politician. he was a congress month who had been elected three time toss the u.s. congress, but he never quite got the hang of politicking and compromise, you know, i'll support your bill withs. he couldn't do that, he couldn't support anything he didn't truly believe in. so never had much success in congress which is actually why he went to texas. i'm sure some of you may have heard of the phrase he supposedly used. he said later he told his constituents you've elected a man with a timber toe -- this guy had a wooden leg -- i'll go to texas. he may have said that. there's no record that he actually said it before he told people later that he said that. [laughter] and then he headed out for texas and he was going to explore the texas as he said in his letter

and return for his family. of course, he didn't. >> and he, of course, managed to get to texas. you can go to hell and i'll go to texas, they weren't quite sure who was getting the worst end of that bargain. [laughter] >> he gets down there, and he goes to church which is always a good thing to do but, alas, it's in the fort. and, my goodness, he gets himself killed at the alamo which sends an already phenomenal american life into the stratosphere of myth and legend and changed him from a similar poll of the common -- symbol of a common martyr to overspread the continent. and nothing is more controversial than th alamo story than the story of how davy crockett died. we all know how he died, certainly, the author jim donovan does because he saw it

in the disney movie and repeats it that way. [laughter] so you've taken the death controversy head on, and i applaud you for your bravery. >> thank you. actually, my point is that we don't know exactly how he died, is given more evidence, better evidence or accounts that indicate otherwise, we have to conclude as any responsible historian would do, that he died with his comrades, fighting. there are, supposedly you may have heard it's been popular in the last few decades to say that he may have -- he was executed. brought before santa ana and ordered to be shot. and believers in this untruth point to, they say things like, oh, there's six mexican officers and one sergeant who is saying

this, so it must be true. well, if you look closer, actually none of these are very reliable, and a few of them are extremely absurd. one sergeant says first he killed jimbo by, and then he found travis and correct on the floor. crockett was sleeping. travis offered the sergeant a whole wad of money to let them go, then some mexican generals came in, and that's when it gets really weird. anyway, that's one of the accounts they point to as evidence that crockett was executeed and most of them are kind of unreliable that way. they're all hearsay, secondhand, thirdhand. so i don't believe the evidence is this to say that he was executed. and as a result as a historian, i didn't write it that way. >> seven eyewitness accounts of his death one way, zero accounts of his death another way.

[laughter] but -- >> not true. joe says they found his body surrounded by several mexican soldiers which wouldn't -- >> pile of them. pile of mexican soldiers, yet. so you'll have to read the blood of heros to make up your own mind. >> the crockett -- >> it is a very long end note which i have read very carefully. [laughter] >> i don't think carefully enough, actually. >> yeah. looking in vain for a citation to any of my works on the topic. >> don't you love it when there is mature debate between two responsible historians? [laughter] >> and they were hacked to death, by the way, not shot. now, the alamo has plenty of heros, and it even has some heroines as well, but it has nothing compared to the helen of troy of the o.k. corral, and that is josephine sarah marcus.

what a remarkable human being not only for the role she played in bringing on the gunfight, but then the role she played in shaping our memory of it now. >> the interesting thing about josephine is she was one of the most gifted prevaricators who ever tried to repaint her actual life. anything she said one can almost assume the opposite, and we just don't know. there's even argument over what's a photograph of her and what isn't. i will refer all of you to next year's festival where i believe a wonderful historian from new york named ann gershwin is going to be debuting her biography of josephine. i can't wait to read it and see what ann might have discovered. the thing i like about josephine is whether she's telling the truth or lying, or most of the time when we don't know which, she's consistently entertaining.

and don't we all love entertaining figures in history? in trying to write about her, i can only come up with one specific thought, something i think is undoubtedly true. that she was a character and a half, and that in a town that rewarded great characters, certainly her relationships with wyatt earp, when you can attract men and have them apparently feel great emotion for you, you are one heck of a gal, and i'm only sorry i didn't meet her when i was young and single just because i think it would have been an interesting experience. one of the great criticisms of any book that follows tombstone's most notorious years is the role josephine played in things. and in trying to study that, i

have tried to study all the accounts. josephine left a, shall we say, much-challenged memoir of her version of things which tried to take an r-rated life and turn it into something g-rated and failed abominably. but to me, the post fascinate -- most fascinating thing is this: when we take wyatt earp who had one short-lived marriage when his young wife died tragically and two more common law marriages before he hooked up with josephine, we know wyatt did not have much of a relationship, and josephine jumped around from man to man, and yet they spent decades and decades together, with each other through thick and thin. and i can only assume from everything, and i think it's true, that whatever else you can say about the two of them, they ended up general -- genuinely loving each other. and in any of our lives, isn't

that what we can hope for most, to spend most of them with someone we love and who loves us back? so good for both of them. at least that ended well. not much else in wyatt's life did. >> there's another great hero in the alamo story in young william barrett travis. the alamo, unlike bowie and crockett, the alamo is his sole claim to fame but has made him a powerful figure in western history and, certainly, in texas. and he's kind of the brooding, romantic hero, although very much a sort of man's man on the frontier. but i think because he was so adept with the pen as these two gentlemen are, he was the intellectual's hero as well. and he does the grand, romantic gesture at the aloe, and on this one mr. donovan and i are in

full agreement. >> oh, are we? >> we are. we're in total agreement. we just like to disagree. [laughter] the line in the dust. >> exactly, line in the dust. and it sounds more dramatic. yes, i found, i think i mentioned earlier that if you dig deep enough, i think you can find fresh material on almost anything. especially as far back as american history goes, a couple hundred years or so. and i did find four or five new pieces of evidence on the line in the sand. now, these aren't -- this evidence isn't a photograph of the line in the sand because photography didn't exist until 1839 and wasn't really widespread in the southwest before the 1840s which is why

we have no photographs of the men who died in the alamo. but i did find a few references i think support one with side or the other. but surely you don't think these people rather than buying the book and finding out for themselves would want me to say now how i feel -- >> no, no, certainly wouldn't. [laughter] the line is so central, though, to the alamo story because it makes these men to die for liberty rather than live under tyranny. folks will have to get the book, of course, to see how you treat it. it's a wonderfully dramatic moment. we all as writers, as historians build on the shoulders of others and, of course, nothing we do can be done without the assistance of archivists, librarians around the country. and i thought maybe we'd just

have a moment the talk about that, jeff. >> one of the things that is a shining light for the state of arizona and for the city of tucson, you have the treasure here just a couple of blocks away that is contributed much to the nation's world of understanding of history. the arizona historical society and particularly their research facility surpassed just about anything anywhere. i have had to do research in an awful lot of states, and i can't say that there's, there aren't any that would compare, but i can tell you this, nobody better. when you have your literary city, you are a great presentation of historical fact, and i'm so grateful to be

offered the chance. my book could not have been written without the good services of the arizona historical society. i would urge all of you to support them and for any place anywhere where you have good people whose objective is to keep history alive by having all the documents, all the letters, all the photographs that help to study and understand these things, and in this one little area of the world you've got the arizona historical society, you have the incomparable christine rhodes down as cocheese county record's office. you folks are blessed, we all are blessed. please spare a wonderful thought for the arizona historical society and make darn sure that your legislatures know you need 'em. we all need the arizona historical society. [applause]

>> jeff made a good point about archives, and he makes use of manuscripts and items that no one else has even seen, or not many, which makes this book far richer than some of the others. you can always tell how much an author has dug and how much research he's really done in primary archives where you really have to go by looking at their end notes and footnotes and seeing if he's just referring to other books on the subject which are secondary sources, or he's got the john smith collection box five, file seven, this letter or something. that shows someone who who's really done some research, and that's a book that should be accorded more respect. >> in the, if you just go to the arizona historical society, go through the archives, you will have what some of us historians, you know, you stumble on something wonderful, and

officially it's called a holy cow moment. holy cow! i can't believe i found that! in real life it's also two words moment, and the first is, oh. [laughter] there's adventures waiting to be found there, folks. go enjoy them there. >> jim, your book, "the blood of heros," will be out in may, so your still catching your breathe and prepare -- breath and preparing to go on tour. "the last gunfight" is, i guess, in its ninth printing? >> if people go out and get it, we'll get to nine printings. [laughter] >> and your next book is on charles manson. now, what has led us from the o.k. can corral? is there a logical progression from bonnie and clyde to the o.k. corral to charles manson as a topic of your interest? >> what i'm really trying to do is write about eras in american history. and when i wrote the last gunfight, what i really wanted to know about was the settling of part of the american

frontier. and then you try to pick an iconic event within that that will draw in readers. i wanted to write about the late 1960s in america and, again, i'm probably the only one here told enough to remember the 1960s, or they used to say if you were there, you can't remember it -- [laughter] but certainly, manson is something that comets to resonate. what i want to do is find out what it is about that time and place that allowed charles manson to be there and for certain things to happen. one of the more curious things for me so far, paul, in this research is the fact that with the internet, with the new social media, there's a lot of rumors about the book and what i'm writing and how i'm writing it which is fascinating to me since i haven't figured that part out myself yet. [laughter] i've seen rumors on the internet that the book is going to have this title or that title, and, in fact, no title's been decided upon. manson himself, you know, is

critical and contributes to several web sites. i had not realized that. but i would say that going from the o.k. corral to charles manson is about as logical as going from santa claus to wyatt earp. it's a natural career arc, and i don't see why anyone's surprised that i'm doing it. [laughter] >> very predictable. >> we have a few minutes for some questions. if you have, if you come up to the microphone, please, and then if you would say your name, and here's jim turner with the first question. >> thank you, paul. you pretty much stole the question that i had, do you get those holy cow moments every time you write a book? i've pushed some ideas past my editors that i've worked with and said i'd like to write a story about this, and the editor will say there's not enough information out there. you can't write on that particular topic. but as you said, ann kirscher in

is going to do josephine even there's very little that most of the rest of us feel, but evidently what seems to come out here is that you really need to be a bulldog to keep pushing and keep thinking i'm going to find something out there. and i though you mentioned some of the things you found out about the mansons which were just amazing to me that i won't give it away. but do you take on topics even though you don't think there's enough material out there? >> when you, when you decide to write a book and you're going to invest a couple years in your life in doing it, i would be ashamed of myself if i didn't work hard enough to find new things that -- and i always think if something kind of stuns me, oh, wow or oh, something, that i want to communicate that excitement to the readers. how can i expect you to enjoy my books, to read them and to feel excited about what you're learning if i haven't enjoyed

writing them, if i haven't been excited by the things i've found? and that's the wonder of history. so i love doing that. i know jim feels the same way because he's had those experiences with his books. >> that's correct. and jim has a brand new history of arizona just hot off the press. >> jim turner, one of the blooming historians of arizona. thank you. >> yes, sir. >> i had a question for jeff. assuming, of course, in your research you spent some time in tombstone somewhere along the way. >> once or twice. [laughter] >> it's one of the places i love to take visitor because i find it fascinating, and i always preface our trips by saying it's part interesting history lesson, and it's part amusement park when you go there. >> with right. >> i'd be interested to know what, you know, how valuable of a source it was for your research and also what your opinion of it is today for people, tourists going to try to learn a little bit about -- >> well, the comparison i use is not meant to be insulting, let me preface it by saying that. when we go to disneyland, we may

know we're not really being greeted by a giant talking mouse, but it's fun to feel that he is. tombstone in these tough economic times is surviving by having an atmosphere, a sense of itself that is attractive to people who are driving by that day and want to stop in. and i certainly can't blame them for that. that, in my opinion, the real history is far more complex than folks who are watching the reenactment of the gunfight or something. it doesn't take away from the fact that the people of tombstone are trying to keep it going, and there are a lot of people who enjoy what they're offering. my suggestion would be go to tombstone, have a good time, lose yourself in the atmosphere, and then try to find out a little bit more and go beyond that first sort of one-dimensional level of information. but, no, i don't make fun of

them. i certainly understand what they're trying to do. >> i guess it's a question about the sources, historical information like the courthouse and the -- >> the courthouse is so wonderful. the underground mines if you're not claustrophobic, which i am, can be a real thrill. i wish some of their folks that they have around to answer questions were a little more factual. you know, kind of as an experiment one day i wandered around and said can you tell me how many people lived in tombstone during the time the we weres was there, and it varied from 35 to 60,000. [laughter] and i mean 35 to 60,000. i think that would be maybe one way they could sort of improve the historical, the factual content a little bit. but, again, they're doing what they need to do. >> sir. >> if you're done. it's easy to see why one would reject the mexican account of

the demise of davy crockett, but why do you reject the dela pe, this a diary? >> well, many people understand the diary was written by -- it was not a diary, it's a reconstructed memoir written in the years after the battle, although it's called a diary because he based it on a diary that's been lost that was published for the first time more than 100 years after he died, 1841 or 1842. it was published in mexico in 1955, i believe, and translated, published here in 1975? yeah. and i found a fascinating source because he was intelligent and open to all sorts of -- he wasn't closed-minded at all. this was jose enrique dela pena. either a captain or lieutenant colonel, some people weren't quite sure. but he was with the mexican army

of santa ana that came up hundreds and hundreds of miles and endured quite a lot to get there. and in one part of the battle he says travis was shot in the courtyard, most historians agree that travis was shot on the north well. and he goes on to say that a few men were brought up after the battle, they were executed in one way or another. i think he says that they were shot, although some other officers -- >> no -- [inaudible] >> and there was many reasons. his account included many other accounts from other officers and sources in his book which freely said he hadn't witnessed it himself. flush and his little original stack of paper that he wrote this on, the crockett mention is on a separate piece of paper

that's slipped in right where it should have been in the battle which leads me to believe it was one of the things he heard from somebody else and stuck it in there. >> jim's book -- >> roughly, that's it. >> jim's book's going to reignite that controversy, i think -- [laughter] >> probably so. >> that is the o.k. corral, of course, of texas, that great question. so it's one of great fascination. yes, sir. >> um, yeah. i've heard various accounts of how close the movie "tombstone" is to factuality, and i know that the cowboys didn't wear red sashes, that was purely hollywood, although they wear red sashes down in tombstone in the reenactment. but besides doc holiday, i thought one of the most fascinating characters was a clanton. a bully who when the going got tough, he got going. and i wanted to know what, how factual was that portrayal of ike clanton? >> as near as it is possible to

ascertain. ike spent hutch of his life drunk -- much of his life drunk, much of his life drunk and stupid, and some of his life sober and stupid. [laughter] this was an atmosphere where men were urged to try -- drink a lot and did and measured their masculinity by how much they could drink. anytime you're in a situation in this towns where liquor and testosterone and live ammunition -- [laughter] are all available, the results sometime are not going to be good. ike was a big, colorful character which makes him great fun to write about. but i don't think anybody in this room would have wanted to live next door to ike. that would be my feeling about him. >> yes, sir. >> someone once said that the hardest thing to predict is the past because it keeps changing on you. i just wonder of these three that we're talking about today, what do you think the greatest misconception that we have, that

the public has about these three events? >> three? >> three being -- are you including the little bighorn this that? well, that's a hard question. nobody told me there was going to be hard questions. [laughter] come on! >> sir, the answer is 1881. [laughter] little brown. >> yeah, little brown. >> are you meaning the biggest misconception for each one? >> you take two, and i'll take -- [laughter] >> little bighorn it's, jeez, how do we even start here. i'm just going to skip that and go to the alamo. well, if we stuck to -- there's, i don't think there's another event in american history. i may have said this already,

that's more myth-encrusted, legend-encrusted than the alamo because if we take exactly what we know from reliable sources, you wouldn't have more than about ten pages. so you've got to use a lot of assumption and supposition. but, and accept some secondary sources or questionable primary sources when you weigh them, of course, as any historian does for bias, reliability, proximity in time and space what happened. and i'm just kind of circling the point here. but there's so many involved with the alamo, it's hard to say which one it is. ..

>> it is never as simple as that.

people think they hear that the enough. it is not that simple. not just greedy man to grabbing, a slave holding people. >> it was a fight for liberty. >> the gunfight at the o.k. corral was not dead than fight. it was the rest on wrong. it happened at a lot nearby. things are more complicated than that. >> thank you for joining us. the blood of he rose. thank you so much. >> rabin of remarks, in 30

minutes we have josh foer, a joe palca, and paul nussbaum discussing the human brain. we will be right back. you are on the tv.

>> a former state legislator spending time in the news one sharron angle from nevada.

she has a book called right and go. senator, if people read the book will they learn about the campaign against harry reid? >> you are too kind to call me senator. i am a private citizen now. they would get my perspective on the campaign. but also on the constitution as a handbook for constitutional conservatives. not so much a memoir. >> what is one of the issues you talked about the campaign that that is in the book? >> the energy comment economy, the difference between what we go through now with the keynesian economics period and why austrian economics or that

school of thought supply-side works better for a free economy. i talk about education, social issues that impact us fiscally. least there to hear more about at as a presidential campaign ramps up. >> take energy. what is a conservative approach? >> and apolo's the should come from the free market. whenever you have the detriment playing in any free-market enterprise, you have lenders and losers. i discuss that in the book how things that we classify as green energy are being subsidized. if the entitlements went away the whole industry would go away. we need to concentrate.

that is what people want to know. they want to know who i was if they had taken a chance to read it, they would know i am an american just like them, common-sense conservative. those coming from a left-wing media was a ploy to drive down my positive numbers for go and paint me as a fringe and extreme person. i come from very

middle-class family and my dad has a small business. i never intended to be a politician. my degree is in part. i am an educator. from that background the government intruded into my family. let the old days telos said you could home school and my son was feeling defeated and i knew i had solutions and when the government said you cannot provide those solutions. i had to be more than a voter. >> do you run for office again? >> possibly. i have not ruled anything out. i am waiting to see the cause that we donated the

money to for the book is two fuld. to make sure senators are elected to change the majority to a minority. that senator reid is no longer the leader. the other mission is to make sure that we have a fair and secure about i will work with the election integrity. that goes to the problems that we have that opens the door for mischief 953 dead people voting in south carolina. we wanted to be a factor. we are working with citizens. we want them to keep their

eyes on the process. we want to be there when they count the votes. it is up to be the people to be vigilant and willing to give up the day at the polls not only volunteering on election boards but the whole process. >> the book was published by author house. where is that? >> it is available on my website. you can order the book are also amazon, borders come the barnes & noble. 81 all proceeds to come to become a go to my website. of powerhouse is a self publishing company. i want to the proceeds to be

used for this super pac. i don't get a percentage. i own the book. i pay them to do what i need to have done now the pros say -- proceeds are for our cause. >> speaking with sharron angle former legislator, republican candidate for national center against harry reid. author of right and go. this. >> we phi it an

admiring book. the administration has disagreed come and they have come out with comments about you. what is it like to be in the middle of a firefight? >> it is a little strange. i have been covering the obama's for five years. it started with the paper called the long run trying to capture the lives of the candidates. because they are so restricted now. we learn about them through their biographies. we look at the whole person. this book is an outgrowth sews the goal was to write about the big change tri-star recovering barack

obama and michelle obama that is who they were. i was watching fees to regular people become president and first lady of the united states. it is not a process that have been on inauguration day but i huge learning curve made march erratic because of the freshness to political life and first african-american president so we see two people taking their partnership to turn it into a white house partnership. obama has a tough lending initially then turns it around. then the most fascinating things that i find about

barack obama is his struggle with politics. they still cannot get over the fact the top politician has day complicated relationship with business. i have been working on this for years. the warehouse cooperated. many people gave me interviews from the inner circle. they knew what they were getting into. i never misrepresented and bios of fact checked the book with an assistant and published an excerpt on the times on saturday. then things happen and people started to discuss the book without having read it. that has since happened to me before. the white house started to

push back if they have not challenged the reporting i did not get a phone call from david axelrod something really surprise me that michelle obama when i and tv and said paraphrasing, i am really tired of depictions of myself as the angry black woman. also hurt fighting directly with from emanuel. that was fascinating. the book definitely does not portray her in a stereotypical way also their clashes were philosophical. maybe a should not undercut my reporting with that is

what they were. she did knowledge she had not read the book that may be responding to the coverage of the buck. i am excited to be here tonight to talk about the actual thing. >> the one seem when peter roosevelt went into politics people said you don't want to do that. it is peace us. -- it is beneath a loss. >> part of the reason the qualms are important they are similar to what a lot of us have. we all st. what is wrong with the political system if it can address social needs. but this is one of the many

feigns about obama that was an asset to that was inhibiting time and time again. i found he had trouble acting like a politician. the story is about the first super bowl party privity is kind but he does not want to walk the room. he does not want to be the guy spending the entire super bowl schmoozing. he wants to hang on to a normal life so i just watch that to get tested again and again. >> another story he insist on having dinner every night is 630. is that a constant theme to preserve the domestic life?

>> certainly one team that. part of the drama is barack obama gets to washington not only not so much managerial horror executive or national security or executive experience but has never at lived in the same house with his family full-time. it up for the first time, is the warehouse. the 630 role he is obviously willing to mess or important situations and two nights per week but they are constantly seeking ways to limit and protect themselves from political life. >> why did he run if he is

ambivalent? >> it was a rash decision. his aides say this summer 2006 he was still dismiss if and they began to test the waters but that process only went summer of 2006 through the fall and people told him your time is now propitious -- miss this opportunity, you may never get it again. obama's at -- michelle is opposed because she is worried about attacks from the clintons and what her chief of staff said the decision weighed on her. i find her situation so dramatic because people they thought her husband would be

an exceptional president if i was not sure that is good for her family. how do you choose between the country and you? >> do you think they have those discussions? >> yes. they have talked about it. the physical white house is almost a character in the book. i spent a lot of time describing what it is like and all the restrictions that come with a life. i acquit that is fun to report and read with exploratory pleasure but there are very substantive things and the argument the

isolationists -- isolation of the presidency limits the number of people who are willing to run for office. the number of those to go through campaign then live is incredibly restrictive life is pretty small. b.c. these presidents get cut off from the white house they say it will not happen to them that happens to all of them. >> michelle obama is the youngest but has she had a more difficult time being second fiddle? >> it is funny because she is said to people of hillary

clinton. i found again and again everybody had one eye on the hillary clinton this -- situation also heard tax in the campaign where painful for her. that new to public life to watch yourself be a caricature in that way is hard. "the twist" is her aides talked about the traditional nature which was so confining protected her because political life is so difficult that you could limit to say i don't do policy or be a part of this discussion. i will not being caged in

these types of debates. there is something very protective of that role. now she plays a much more prominent role which is what she wanted in the first place. >> there are moments but also a real vulnerability she wears normal shorts and opposed made fun of them. wondered if she was letting the team down. how the way that balance of vulnerability? >> that is part of what i think is so fascinating. part of the reason just banish the phrase a angry black woman but part of the

reason that caricature is so wrong businesses the vulnerability. that is the word that hurt aide's use. they call her anxious a point* in the reporting where i found harris is after lee scott brown victory. he wins the senate seat with devastating consequences for the legislative agenda she has two issues with her husband and is not understand how they could let this happen lowered drop the ball. the role that she plays in the presidency, she has the adm the husband will be